The Documents – Some Random Impressions
July 8, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Like many of you, I spent several hours yesterday looking over the documents that likely led to C.J. Mahaney’s temporarily stepping down from his leadership position in Sovereign Grace Ministries. These documents make for some long and arduous reading, as their author, Brent Detwiler, took over 400 pages to detail his experiences with the organization. Mr. Detwiler provides a tremendous amount of documentation, quoting entire email conversations and his own notes that cover more than a decade.
Honestly, I’m still not sure what to think.
For one thing, there is a level of vindication in finally being able to point to documentation – these leaders’ own words, their own emails – that proves what so many of us have been feeling and saying all along, which is that Sovereign Grace Ministries’ pyramid-style accountability structure simply does not work and is NOT a healthy place for the man at the top. While some of the information might be shocking in its revelation of rather extreme (even potentially criminal) behaviors like blackmail, what I found more telling than almost anything was the exchange in which C.J. Mahaney makes the (ostensible) request back in 2005 that the organization pay for his son’s airplane ticket for a ministry trip that C.J. and his wife Carolyn were going to take.
First of all, this exchange reveals in C.J. a breathtaking sense of entitlement. In 2005, his base salary – not counting profits from his book sales, the money he was paid in honorariums for speaking engagements, and other perks that come from being in a ministry position like his – was $150,000. While that’s not necessarily an excessive amount for the head of an organization like Sovereign Grace Ministries, it would probably seem like a large enough wage to most SGM members, large enough for most of us to conclude that if C.J. and Carolyn were good stewards of their money at all, they should have been able to afford their son’s airfare.
But more importantly, the exchange about the plane ticket clearly shows that while C.J. goes through the motions of making a request, no possibility ever really existed in C.J.’s mind that his request would be denied. When Mr. Detwiler questions C.J. about the request, his questions are met with twisted non-answers and faux submission – “I understand if this can’t be done” – even as it becomes very clear, even to the casual reader, that C.J. is not happy about being challenged and ultimately makes Brent pay dearly for it. Here is what Mr. Detwiler says about the aftermath of that exchange:
…it felt like we were being punished as Dave frequently described your reaction in situations like this one. That is, our denial of funds for Chad resulted in limitations of future travel for Carolyn. None of us wanted that as the outcome. I felt guilty for this development. And then your final comment which seemed to be self-pitying, etc. That is, ―Won‘t happen again. What won‘t happen again? You won‘t ever make a similar request in the future? We didn‘t want that result either. Again, I felt culpable. Why won‘t you do so again? Were you resentful? Did we do something wrong? Was it because we asked some questions and raised some issues?
I was worried. I knew I was in trouble again. In addition to your normal increase in salary, I proposed an additional $1,500 salary increase in 2006 to cover travel expenses for Chad even though I felt it unnecessary. That was shameful of me. I should have been truthful about my thoughts regarding your ability to pay for Chad. Please forgive me. I was also trying to avoid all conflict with you.
So basically, this incident makes it very clear that although C.J.’s words sound like he’s “asking,” it’s all little more than a show. The men around him are keenly aware of his lack of tolerance for having his desires thwarted or his wishes questioned, and aside from Brent Detwiler, it appears that none of C.J.’s supposed “circle of accountability” was actually ever holding him accountable.
The documents go on, in hundreds of pages of laborious detail, to make a pretty clear case for the idea that Brent Detwiler was ultimately declared “not gifted to continue in his role as pastor” in large part because of his continued efforts to hold C.J. to the same standards which C.J. required of everyone else.
In the end, I came away with a myriad of impressions…
…of what happens when a megalomaniac is given unchecked power…
…of what happens when people blur the lines between “promoting the gospel” and “promoting the ‘movement'”…
…of what happens when men live for decades with the belief that they are true “apostles” akin to the Apostle Paul, which apparently renders them unable to use language and communicate and just say what they mean like normal guys, without all that apostolic “Greetings, my dear brother in the name of our Savior” window dressing…
Ultimately, though, I was left with one overriding conviction.
And that is that after reading these documents, it would seem to me like there’s no way the SGM system can continue to function in the same manner that it always has.
The SGM system depends upon the notion that the men in control are above reproach, to the point where they do not need to be held formally accountable to the ordinary members of SGM congregations. Even “local” SGM churches count on this assumption. SGM members are taught – by C.J. Mahaney himself, no less – that it is their job to “make their pastor’s job a joy” by obeying and submitting to him. C.J. has spent years spreading this notion throughout the entire organization. He has stated that if a pastor is not successful in his ministry, it is because his church members are not properly submitting to and obeying him. C.J., in his Happiest Place On Earth sermon, said this:
The undeniable emphasis in [Hebrews 13] verse 17 is not on the pastoral team, the undeniable emphasis and accent in verse 17 is on the responsibility of the congregation TO the pastoral team, and here’s why. Here’s why.
The effectiveness of pastoral ministry is dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry. THE effectiveness of pastoral ministry is indeed dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry.
Later in this message, he glosses over the idea that church leaders might actually abuse their power. He says,
It could be, there might be some – I hope there are none – but there might be some, where you actually come from a context where a pastor or pastoral theme was authoritarian. And if that is true – and if that is true of you – [whispers intensely] I am SO SORRY. Because there is no excuse for that. And if any of us as pastors engage in that, may we be held accountable in this life. I’m sure we’ll be held accountable in the life to come.
And here’s what I can assure you of this morning: that will not be your experience in this church. That will not be your experience in this church.
Unfortunately, that was the only assurance that C.J. could give his audience – his word. Since SGM members have nothing built into their church governance structure as a safeguard against authoritarian abuse, they are left with no alternative but to “just trust” C.J.’s word that their pastors won’t abuse their authority.
As my dad would say, “It all hangs on one rusty nail.”
And now we’ve learned that the “rusty nail” isn’t trustworthy. We’ve seen what happens to the “rusty nail” at the top, when the guys who are supposed to hold him accountable also happen to consider him their boss.
Sure, C.J. Mahaney has now finally stepped down for a “season of reflection and repentance.” But it took over a decade to get him to that point, and he apparently still plans on coming back to Sovereign Grace Ministries after Mark Dever and his other celebrity accountability partners declare him restored.
And even if C.J. doesn’t come back, the pyramid structure that enabled his behavior still – at this point – remains in place. And human nature being what it is, it’s practically inevitable that the unchecked power and unchecked authority will just go to the head of the next guy who manages to claw his way to the top.
SGM members out there reading this, it’s time for you to demand that your organization changes its polity. There’s simply no other solution. Demand that your “local” churches change their Articles of Incorporation and become formally and legally accountable to the members of their congregations. Demand that the larger organization, Sovereign Grace Ministries, also changes its structure, so that your leaders must answer to an independent member-elected Board of Directors with disciplinary, hiring, and firing powers.
Nothing less will do.
It seemed to me that the charges against CJ were, a bit, well, odd. Keep in mind I am a total outsider, so that is probably why. But one of the first one’s I read that resurfaced in the document at various times went like this:
“I discovered you were most tempted when you felt sinned against, judged or misrepresented. This often led to bitterness, anger, sinful judgments, distrust, and relational withdrawal.”
Well by golly, who cares? I mean doesn’t EVERYONE get testy when they judged or misrepresented? But it seems there is a kind of accountability in SGM that venerates taking criticism and being open to correction. Even if someone is unfairly taking you to task you are to patiently (thankfully?) accept it. It is as if you are to smile the whole time while someone is eating you for breakfast. Being human, CJ didn’t like that. However, it seems as though he expected others to do that.
Is that where the sense of indignity comes from?
SGM members out there reading this, it’s time for you to demand that your organization changes its polity. There’s simply no other solution. Demand that your “local” churches change their Articles of Incorporation and become formally and legally accountable to the members of their congregations. Demand that the larger organization, Sovereign Grace Ministries, also changes its structure, so that your leaders must answer to an independent member-elected Board of Directors with disciplinary, hiring, and firing powers.
Nothing less will do.
:clap :clap :clap :goodpost :clap :clap :clap
AMEN! May God help our brothers and sisters make it so!
Ditto to what she said.
SGMers, please give it up. Get out. Come and worship with us out here in Freedomland, where our pastors don’t engage in this level of childish navel-gazing and endless babbling. They are too busy doing other things. Like ministry.
Are you guys noticing that there is no sadness for the thousands of people that have been hurt?
Nah.
It’s all about the pastor/apostles/whatever’s stuff. Sounds like a bunch of little girls.
What struck me was how often they discussed other leaders sins behind their back. Sometimes they even made jokes about the persons sin. Somehow this doesn’t fall under their definition of gossip.
Adam – doesn’t it tell you something when ALL of the other leaders INCLUDING DAVE HARVEY were AFRAID to say ANYTHING CORRECTIVE to CJ, that something is WRONG? CJ went on an email hissy-fit rampage after Brent tried to tell him (more or less) that he earned enough to pay for a plane ticket for his son.
Adam,
I’d agree with you that to an outsider, the complaints against CJ can seem nitpicky.
But in SGMville, an entire culture has been built around the idea that the only acceptable response to an “observation” about your sin (unless you’re a leader in a position higher up than the person bringing the correction) is to “accept it humbly and graciously.”
I think it was DB who said that she perfected the canned response of smilingly saying, “Thank you for that observation. I will prayerfully consider it.”
Anything else would be exhibiting the sin of pride.
SGM’s social interactions can feel really phony to the outside world, too, because of how language is used. Everything has to be phrased up with a lot of what they think is “gracious” and “biblical” lingo. That’s why you see lines in these guys’ emails that say stuff like, “Grace to you, my brother!” even as the whole point of a particular email message will exhibit behavior that has NOTHING to do with “grace.”
It’s crazy.
But in this thinking, “faithful friends” (according to their twisted understanding of the Proverb) will “wound” each other when they detect sin. “True biblical fellowship” cannot happen unless people are confessing their sins and confronting one another about sins.
That’s why, incidentally, in one of CJ’s blog posts, he name-dropped about how he and a bunch of his Reformed celebrity pals corrected each other. Here is the quote:
It was one of the weirdest lines ever. The rest of us in “normal” Christianity don’t talk like this, and because those Reformed celebrities, although admittedly celebrities, do occupy “normal” churches where there is NOT this culture of confrontation, I realized that it almost had to be a lie, spoken in code – code that would let all the SGMers reading his blog know that not only did CJ hang with the Reformed Big Dogs, but that he and the Reformed Big Dogs sat around shooting the breeze and confronting one another about their sins, just as part of casual conversation.
So odd. But in SGM, confronting a person about his sin is supposed to be a sign of your “care” for him. And accepting the confrontation – appearing to be receptive to it – is a sign of your holiness.
CJ does a lot of confrontation, actually. A couple of years ago, he did a big thing about confronting Mark Driscoll about his potty mouth. He’s been known to publicly castigate celebrities like NFL coach Bill Belichick – people who may not even necessarily be professed Christians – for their bad behavior. And if you read CJ’s emails to Brent when Brent attempts to make CJ acknowledge his own wrongdoings, you can see a clear pattern of CJ’s efforts at turning things around, to where he then calls out Brent for Brent’s perceived sins.
Although it seems crazy to anyone on the outside, I can understand Brent Detwiler’s mounting frustrations over CJ’s refusal to play by his own rules. CJ was presiding over the de-giftings and the stepping-downs of a LOT of other SGM pastors, but he himself would not confess the sin of blackmail and make it right.
Thanks, Kris. I skipped around a little to read some sections that were recommended to me and now I’m finally almost done with the first part. So, I’m way back in the beginning.
I do have a comment…it seems like CJ made random doctrine changes unilaterally. He has an “A-team” (whatever that means) and I was always under the impression that they “reasoned together” and we could “trust their accountability and judgment” on such topics. Also, we were told that nothing like this was ever taken lightly.
So, in the first 119 pages, CJ has unanimously:
planned out the next 7 years of his career path
chosen his successor 7 years in advance
changed the “movement’s” entire doctrine on baptism
changed the “movement’s” entire doctrine on communion
changed the “movement’s” entire doctrine on baptism in the Holy Spirit
I can’t wait to see what else he does in the next
Those are all pretty big decisions to make by yourself. They affect THOUSANDS of people in a very direct way.
In CJ’s world, nobody but CJ matters. Nobody.
Adam – by the way, you DID read the part about CJ ***blackmailing*** Larry, didn’t you? (pg. 138 – 139 of Document 3 – http://www.scribd.com/sgmwikileaks )
And speaking of churches that are not SGM, do other churches change doctrine so frequently and seemingly “on a whim?”
Is this normal in the broader christian world?
Sid
Ellie,
GIVE IT UP WITH THE ALL CAPS. I AM NOT THE ENEMY. No, I did not pore over the documents. I don’t have a dog in this fight.
Kris,
That explains a lot. Amazing stuff. I’ve run into this kind of “accountability” before. The urgency to root out evil in other people’s lives tends to make one evil themselves. It’s a sad state of affairs.
Adam – I was just emphasizing certain parts, just as you emphasized *everyone* in your post. Never said you were the enemy.
Wow! that about sums up all i have to say for a little while.
Cj believes that no one has spiritual authority over him. No one is able to tell him he has done anything wrong. This is one of his responses I came across in the Documents. He was asked a question and this was his response:
“I don’t want to interrupt the conviction that is taking place in my heart.”
think about this one… it gets worse and worse the more you think about it.
This is why People keep “dating” the church, Joshie. Or maybe that’s the problem. Maybe we should be courting it instead. That way we won’t get too serious too soon without real commitment And leave our hearts unguarded and get burned like this!
(off to start an online dating website for churches).
I’m hoping Kris is right that SGM can’t continue as is. I mean think about it: if someone as humble as CJ can fall to this sinful abuse of power, does Dave Harvey (humbly) think he is immune and will actually seek out correction and accountability? Is he doing that now? really? (with proof?) I hope that SGM cannot continue with the pyramid of power it maintains now. Put a new guy at the pinnacle and get different results? naaaaah!
@ Sidney –
you wrote
And speaking of churches that are not SGM, do other churches change doctrine so frequently and seemingly “on a whim?”
Is this normal in the broader christian world?
From my pov, the answer is NO re changing doctrine in this way. I’ve never encountered anything even remotely close to this kind of action in the denominational churches (mostly Lutheran) that I’ve been around. It just does not work that way, which is a good thing, imo.
(fwiw, I am an “outsider” to SGM in that I’ve never been a member of an SGM church, but have good friend who are members of SGM churches – and I’ve been thorough the wringer personally with churches that are similar to SGM… discipleship movement churches. Used to know some folks who were part of TAG, way back when, too…)
hmm – somehow my quote tags didn’t work in #16. Oh well!
I read the story about the Fairfax pastor who wouldn’t attend their niece or nephew’s funeral because he had a dispute over “doctrine” with the parents. Brent writes a book about his disputes with CJ over “doctrine”. CJ threatens to release embarrasing information about Larry’s family because of Larry’s views on doctrine.
It seems like: “doctrine” is the either an idol to these guys, a drug, or something they have wrapped their personality and identity around that they can’t function without it. For the Fairfax pastor, that dude seems more like a 16 year-old girl getting left out of the cool girls clique because she is wearing last seasons fashion.
Its hard to believe this is the behavior of middle-aged men.
@ Michell: well, they weren’t middle-aged when all of this started… which likely has as much to do with it as the deeply-rooted “discipleship movement” way of “pastors” (or “elders”) lording it over everyone and being their own ultimate authority.
Michelle – apologies for not spelling your name correctly. I feel like the queen of typos tonight!
NLR – the “dating” the church has been around at least back to 1988. The leadership used to “talk” about it all the time.
Also, when’s the meet up????
I’m sorry to seem cynical. But..well…I am.
Bob sure does play “middleman” a lot, doesn’t he?
Sidney
To anyone on here from the previous post who thought I was wrong on saying that you shouldn’t be happy about this whole cj thing, I just felt that IMO that it seemed like some were jumping up and down that this happened. I felt that some people were happy about the step down than they were that God finally steped in.
Freedom–
Haha 1988! Wow! Let me think about how to do the meetup this weekend. Ill make it a private google group. I’ll have to figure out a way to verify the group members are survivors or friends of. We dint want any moles. Any ideas? Maybe ill post something here that people can email Kris-she can verify that they are good because of their rep on this site, and get the group email addy from her that I will supply.
But also, I’m not as worried about fake phonies because I don’t have a prob telling someone to leave.
Lynn–
Try and keep in mind that these are not in-person conversations where much more would be available to discern and hear from one another- even body language, which is not present here. These are one dimensional conversations.
You cannot assume that even if a person does not state that, that they donor feel that way or aren’t thinking it. Maybe them telling you/us that they are happy about it is just what they are thinking at the moment. You or others shouldn’t require that people must present both the positive and negative, good and bad or balanced remarks just to pass as not being negative or as some others have said, unChristian like.
Off the subject but, @NLR, I had your gift of spunky vocabulary this week. I was taken advantage of. Instead of playing victim, I put her in her place, backed off and refused to engage in her idiocy. It felt awesome.
Sidney,
I told my mom how SGM will change doctrine and she thought it was odd.
” I just felt that IMO that it seemed like some were jumping up and down that this happened. I felt that some people were happy about the step down than they were that God finally steped in.
”
Laura, How do you know God stepped in? One would think that Lakewood would be rubble by now with that kind of thinking. Why hasn’t God cleaned that up?
I guess we could say God allowed them enough rope….to make all this pubic. It was inevitable if you read the docs.
And why shouldn’t people be pleased? I keep thinking about that molested 3 year old and how her and her parents were treated by SGM pastors.
Personally, I think it is premature to think Mahaney is finished. I think Mahaney will be back more popular than ever with an even bigger following. He reinvents himself about as well as Clinton did.
NLR,
Yes, I have realized that now. It probably was what they were thinking at the time. I was wrong. I’m going to stop now saying how a person should feel or shouldnt feel. I’m sorry if I offended anyone.
Michelle–
Aww Lawd! (shakes head) what have I done! Lol. Girl, I am trouble. Don’t be my friend. Run! Lol
(whispers and takes a swig of beer). So proud of u :wink:
GIT. IT. DONE. Folks will know that you are a gentle and kind person, but not to take you the passive fool. I used to let people run over me all the time. I leaned that I had to take up for myself and have good boundaries with others. I have no patience with Tomfoolery-ness and people who say mean sh*t to me in the name of Christ. I give them a dose of truth and a sprinkle of snark and a good push in the back “Off you go, troll!”. POOF! (fairy dust. Sparkle. Sparkle.)
” I just felt that IMO that it seemed like some were jumping up and down that this happened. I felt that some people were happy about the step down than they were that God finally steped in.
”
Laura, one more thing. Because I care for you I must tell you that you are committing the sin of assuming. Have you gone to each person here privately to rebuke them lovingly before you wrote public comment of hate and assumptions about people? Hmmm? Shouldn’t you take the sin plank out of your own eye before you point out the sins of others? Hmmm?
Sorry, could not resist.(wink)
Just posted this comment over at Dave Harvey’s “A note on CJ Mahaney’s leave of absence”[http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/A-note-on-CJ-Mahaneys-leave-of-absence.aspx#disqus_thread}: {we shall see if it makes it past moderation and see if all SGM members voices are allowed to be heard…}
“I agree with Mr Reece.
‘I have not seen in SGM or in my local church any papist-type desire.’
Wow, DSmith. Really? Open thy eyes, my friend.
I see it. You don’t?!? It is apparent to me that in my SGM church AND in SGM as a whole, the very structure is papist.
Question to illustrate: Did you vote on who your pastor is? Did you and your congregation select and vote on who goes next to the pastors’ college to “oversee your soul”???. Did you?
(Jesus is the ONLY overseer, btw. 1 Peter 2:25).
The very fact that we poor common lay folk don’t SELECT or ELECT or VOTE or HAVE A VOICE to choose our pastors OR our elders, sounds pretty top-down papist to me. The truth is, we don’t know WHO selects them. Not you. Not me.
Tres papist to me.
As a current, decade-long member of SGM, my voice is that SGM polity needs some serious OVERHAUL. Polity is what’s wrong in SGM.
Hey Adam, welcome. You said, “It seemed to me that the charges against CJ were, a bit, well, odd. Keep in mind I am a total outsider, so that is probably why. But one of the first one’s I read that resurfaced in the document at various times went like this:
“I discovered you were most tempted when you felt sinned against, judged or misrepresented. This often led to bitterness, anger, sinful judgments, distrust, and relational withdrawal.”
Well by golly, who cares? I mean doesn’t EVERYONE get testy when they judged or misrepresented? But it seems there is a kind of accountability in SGM that venerates taking criticism and being open to correction. Even if someone is unfairly taking you to task you are to patiently (thankfully?) accept it. It is as if you are to smile the whole time while someone is eating you for breakfast. Being human, CJ didn’t like that. However, it seems as though he expected others to do that.”
You are full on correct. It’s crazy, isn’t it? I love being around normal people who don’t have to put on acts or force their emotions to only be full of joy at ALL times. So sad that regular folks have been actually kicked out of their home churches for feeling something. Worse yet, they sometimes got kicked out for simply the suspicion of feelings. It’s so sad. I love the people who were my friends in SGM and miss many of them, but it’s such a relief to not worry about people judging me if I have just had a bad day.
Let me explain that. Someone says, ‘How are you?’ If your dog had just died and you lost your job and your child is sick and you honestly answer, “I feel awful”, that is enough to get you a full set of questions and corrections. Certainly not from everyone. There are many fabulous people in SGM. Fabulous. (They are what makes leaving so heart wrenching.) But there are also lots of people who just never quite learned how to relate to others. And being in SGM, they feel that this sin sniffing is actually a very loving way to interact. (These people for the most part are very earnest people, desiring to please God in everything.) But your honest answer can give you anywhere from a 1 minute to 40 minute lecture about how you are in sin and may possibly open you up to calls from others after the person has “not gossipped” about you to others. (This is a made up scenario, used as an example. But there is no exaggeration in it in the least.)
So good to be in a church or around friends where you don’t “risk” things just by actually feeling something other than constant joy.
Lynn–
I sensed your kindness and frustration when you said that, that’s why I didn’t sprinkle any fairy dust on yer and see you on your merry little way. And rather, just gave you something to consider about the lack of dimension here that we don’t have the benefit of having but is present-nevertheless. The heart is complex and there are many emotions and thoughts where we dont simply have the space or time to say it all. So we justvshare what’s at the forefront but may sincerely be thinking the other as well and simply haven’t said it. :wink:
On the other thread (which is now closed for comments), “matt” said the following:
I thought this was a very astute observation.
For everyone who is expecting the Reformed Big Dogs to actually engage in “correcting” CJ or possibly even distancing themselves from him – well, I’d say, “Don’t hold your breath.”
These guys have a relationship with one another, all right – a business relationship. They write endorsement blurbs for each other’s books. They’ll share the stage together at big-name conferences. And I think CJ holds appeal for the others because he brings with him a very obedient group who will buy whatever CJ tells them to read.
I used to be naïve. Back when this thing first started, I was all wide-eyed and innocent, thinking to myself, “Certainly guys like John MacArthur and [blogger and book reviewer] Tim Challies and John Piper will want to know about this stuff!” I actually contacted several of these guys, in one way or another, and shared my story with them, about how I’d been this accidental blogger who stumbled onto SGM’s abuses. I was pretty passionate in my emails to these guys, as I was truly passionately concerned for the people who had shared their stories about the terrible things that had been done to them at the hands of SGM pastors. I remember clicking “send” with a sense of relief. I knew these guys would do something to help.
But you know what happened?
While I did get a few replies, they were mostly noncommittal. Tim Challies was especially noncommittal. He – the guy who’d first garnered traffic to his own site because of his “watchblogger” reviews of some of Rick Warren’s Purpose-Driven materials – had apparently ZERO interest in watchblogging if it had to do with the guys who were inviting him to live-blog from their conferences. I was shocked.
Like I said, I was naïve.
I was so naïve that awhile later – maybe 6 months or so later – I got to thinking about how Challies was continuing to provide endorsements for SGM on his site, and how bad that was, considering that I’d heard far more stories by that point. I got to thinking about how all these other Reformed celebrities were also still sharing the stage with CJ and seeming to have no issue with him. I decided to write again.
Yep – naïve.
Once again, I got a two-line non-committal response.
That’s when I began to really puzzle over how it was that these guys – who seemed to be men of such integrity – didn’t seem to care about SGM’s issues. It didn’t make any sense to me…UNTIL one day it hit me that these guys depend upon one another for their continued fame, or people’s perceptions of their increasing celebrity.
Or sales. Book sales.
Take Tim Challies, for instance. Over the past 7 or so years, he has managed to turn his blog into a business that supports his family. His influence in the blogging world eventually led to his own book deals. He released his second book a couple of months ago. He also took a position as one of the pastors at his church. He came to fame in part because of the book reviews he did of other people’s books – including those of Josh Harris and CJ – and because of the live-blogging he did at conferences.
(Interestingly enough, though, at the time I’d first written to Tim Challies, he’d just released his first book – entitled The Discipline of Discernment – and although he’d put in many a plug for SGM books and music, the SGM Powers That Be were not permitting his book to be sold at SGM bookstores! I even shared this with Challies, telling him, “What does that say, that your book about discernment is not on the approved reading list?” I thought that might be a thought-provoking question for him. But I guess it wasn’t.)
Anyway, sadly, I eventually was forced to conclude that these guys are worried about themselves. The Reformed world is a tight little world. A guy like Challies can go after Rick Warren, no problem. And all his Reformed buddies will jump on the bandwagon and agree with him that Warren sucks and gives us nothing but Christianity Lite.
But Challies depends on hits to his site from all his SGM-sympathetic readers, and he depends upon his relationships with the likes of Josh Harris and CJ and the SGM music people.
So…
I’ll put it this way…
“Discernment” only applies if the object of one’s discerning isn’t critical to one’s continued success in the blogging and book-publishing worlds.
:(
Matt,
I’m sorry, I don’t know the story of Lakewood. Sometimes what I try to say doesnt really come out right. I believe God did step in, by these documents being leaked or however it got out. I believe that God was also sick and tired what was going on and finally said enough was enough.
Also, I’m not saying that people shouldnt be pleased. I for one am happy that this is finally out in the open, but I’m not going to be jumping up and down about it. Also, I don’t want to be completely happy about this for a couple reasons I’m going to list.
1) I do believe there are some real nice pastors in sgm that I think are humble men. And I don’t want anyone to think all SGM pastors are the same.
2) This will only and has only made CJ look more humble. If you look on his fan page, then you see so many people saying how humble he is.
3) I still have friends in sgm that I still talk to and are probably hurt by all this.
CJ is going to use SGM money, FLY to Charlotte and have a 3 hour meeting with Brent just so he can see his expressions?
This was in July 2010 (part 2 page 6ish). The economy was TANKING, people are losing their jobs, houses and cars. They can hardly pay their tithe… and this is an appropriate way to spend God’s money?
Come on.
Pack your bags, folks. Take your money. There are MILLIONS of starving people on this planet and MILLIONS of orphans on this planet. Please give your money to a better cause.
Lynn–
Hmmmm…. Seems like humble is tge new crowning glory. CJ is not humble and those people don’t know it. But you and I know and I’m happy about that.
Theyve idolized humility as if it’s the most important quality for a super Christian. I coulda sworn that it was love. Boy has love taken a backseat to humble. Love is simply not a requirement and it is sadly nowhere to be found; especially not in those emails and his dealings with survivors.
Matt,
I don’t believe I did assume. I just gave my opinion. Thats all I did. I was just saying how I felt. And I will say this again, I’m very pissed about what sgm has done to God’s children. I’m pissed to a point where I want to go to C.J. and tell him how I feel. However, if anyone thinks i did assume, then I’m sorry. :D
(singing loudly eith the remote and my shades on) where is the loooooove? Where is the looooove? Yeah yeah. Where is the lo-oooooove? Where is the love?
It’s probably good that I’m single right now. Any poor fella that’d be married to me would have to put up with all this shucking and jiving I’m doing in here tonite. I can party by myself if I must say so. I’m very entertaining.
Kris–
I don’t know what to say about that. I think these men don’t wanna know because they’d have to own up to a lot. They’d also have to let go of a lot. So they’ll just continue picking on prosperity teachers. That’s the easy shot to take.
I read most of these documents, yes Kris, what stood out in it all was the loooooong manipulative “request” to cover CJ’s son airfare. Wow! He was not happy with being “questioned” about vacation days, etc. He was obsessed and infuriated at having his “integrity” questioned. One of the things I noticed when I was involved and considering our church relating to SGM was the unusual verbiage that was so common among the leaders….” a drippy over drawn humility language” that after a while was bizarre…the preacher boys all seemed to talk in this “CJ speak”. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Important that the roots of this go back to PDI/SGM being heaving influenced by those in the “charismatic discipleship movement” of the 1970’s — Mumford, basham, etc. This DNA of this movement seems to have influenced the unusual control, sin hunting, submission, immature leaders, etc exhibited in this
movement. The issue is not Calvinism….it is much deeper than that.
NLR,
If C.J. is humble, then I’m the queen on England. If I hear one more time how humble people think CJ is because of this, I will set them straight. I’m not going to say it nice either. So listen here defenders, if you say that he is humble and him stepping down is humble of him, then be prepared. Please don’t take this as anger, just frustration.
BTW NRL, the first statement was meant for you, not anything that followed. I just rambled on. This is what I want to do if i hear CJ is so humble :bang :barf:
Two blogs going a hundred miles an hour is tough on the old guys (me)!!! I am now a drive by — posted A response to FSGP with respect so ‘no boy scouts left’ on Refuge that I thought I would post here as well. Not much to say that others haven’t said a hundred times!!!
FSGP –
Just a drive by comment for me — my head hurts and my heart is heavy as I have read Brent’s notes and thinking back to so many very good people (church members and leaders) who were beat up, castigated and ostracized under this regime.
Just felt to defend some of those who are still in SGM but second class citizens biding time but in disagreement to this nonsense that their leaders think is normal Christianity. There are those of us who left, those fired, and those driven out for standing against their strange doctrines, applications and methodologies and i believe there are those still within the walls of SGM that would stand as strongly with many of those outside the walls against this nonsense and have been waiting for such a time as this.
To the still SGMers –
Are there any of you that have read the discourse and dialogue between your leaders that would say this is normal Christianity? I have jumped around on the blogs trying to get a sense of your mindset besides protecting and exalting CJ and trying to stop what is happening on the blogs I did read where I think one of you said that we should all be putting sin to death or killing sin. It shed some light for me on where some or many of you might be.
Let me say this brethren — sin is alive and well (as displayed through the 600 pages) – it is US who have died to sin and made alive in the spirit of life in Christ Jesus!!! A life focused on killing sin will be a life continually entangled in the web of sin and judgment – no man can win this battle. Jesus overcame sin through His perfection, died bearing our sins on the cross, we are buried with him and raised with him in the resurrected life and seated with Him in the heavenlies.
He exchanged our unrighteousness for His righteousness. He now lives in us. He isn’t trying to kill sin he died for us because of sin. To live the way your leaders have lived is to negate the work of the cross and making righteousness a human accomplishment – no can do my brethren!!! Listen to how these men give such such attention, energy and focus to their sin — it is not just unhealthy – it is wrong!!! I now understand why they continue to preach the gospel to themselves and not to the poor and lost and why they worship the cross.
One last comment – the fact that the Lord let this go on for 30 years is a testament to His longsuffering and His love for these men not because they are such great men — He has given them chance after chance to repent but they have chosen to exalt themselves above it. The Lord is saying (in my opinion) enough is enough. It is time to reap what they have sown. I sense in my spirit that perhaps it is a time to let the fear of the Lord impact us all that Christ is glorified in us all.
I apologize for being so preachy!!! :mic
Adam, you also wrote, “Is that where the sense of indignity comes from?”
Thank you for putting it that way! It feels like you are understanding what some of us are experiencing. The frustration (which for many in SGM is considered sin) can be maddening. Thank you for seeking to understand us!
Well, I think I have read the documents in their entirety and every post to date – I needed an extra two cups of coffee at work today and still folks were asking what was wrong with me today? Like most, I have been filled with so many thoughts and emotions its tough to sort out – I will say I had some time in worship this morning and it was sweet. Truly having a relationship with Jesus and being a son of God is all that I/We have! Just to vent here are some of my thoughts over the past two days:
1) Predominently…. walking through these documents left me mostly in fear and trembling before God. Indeed man’s wisdom is but foolishness to God – Possibley many of us want to “vomit” due to conviction of our own sins, and knowing that if we hide our sins and refuse to repent and change, God will mercifully bring about consequences. I have been reminded in Hebrews that God disciplines those He loves and reading this 10 year story created a desire in me to repent and change in my sin areas before I AM DISCIPLINED!
2) Brent I have heard preach many timee, and have appreciated his teaching. Reading the docs the image of a bulldog comes to mind! I agree no one looks good (I agree that to relate like that to my friends would be TOTALLY EXHAUSTING), but boy do I apprecaite Brent’s perserverance and doggedness, wow he should have been a lawyer or prosecuting attorney! Missed his calling!
3) I believe completely that CJ is a brother in Christ. I also can relate to the temptations that come along with being a celebrated speaker (for me not in the chruch world, but corporate world) and I think many of us may not be able to relate to other’s sin temptations unless we walk in their moccasins. I know firsthand that money and extreme power and adulation (fame) can be VERY DIFFICULT…it is even MORE important for men or women in that place to be grounded and have accountability. It is alarming that CJ disdained accountability. To such a degree, I wonder if there are other sin areas not yet brought ot light – he seemed to deviate significantly from “SGM standards” (e.g. dropped care group for 1 and 1/2 years)that it causes me to pause….But in the end I know CJ is a believer and God is whosing him much love for this discipline and sin coming to light. For that I rejoice.
4) I have been amazed at Kris’ insights on this blog and her ability to clearly communicate her thoughts and observations. Kris are you starting a church anytime soon????
5) I beleive the impact will be great…I do rejoice that God is faithful, that He loves His people, that we all have a rich inheritance, but certainly discipline from God can be painful at the time….and I pray everyone involved is trained by Gods discipline….it will lead to fruit.
Trusting Jesus
RT said, “It’s all about the pastor/apostles/whatever’s stuff. Sounds like a bunch of little girls.”
RT, you are so wrong. Most little girls are much more mature and less self centered.
irv–
That was great. I wonder: do you think (or anyone can answer this) that a continual focus on putting sin to death is because of the focus on the cross? Therefore, the lack of understanding of the complete work of Christ–NOT ours–in the ressurction that overcame sin? This is maybe why so many think that the bloggers are continuing in sin, where their refusal is putting an end to it. That’s quite naïve of them, but sobeit, it’s what they’ve been drilled with over and over again.
Indiana Jones said, “What struck me was how often they discussed other leaders sins behind their back. Sometimes they even made jokes about the persons sin. Somehow this doesn’t fall under their definition of gossip.”
Bingo!
Tim C (I might know you irl),
The DNA has mutated, imho. Now, if SGM was a cell and CJ and the big A list dudes are in the nucleus, there is a definite mutation somewhere and all attempts at DNA repair have met with resistance. generally, two things happen, the cell goes through apoptosis (programed cell death,) or it starts going out of control and that turns into cancer.
I hope and pray for DNA repair but my second choice would, unfortunately, be apoptosis to keep the rest of the Body healthy.
“That’s when I began to really puzzle over how it was that these guys – who seemed to be men of such integrity – didn’t seem to care about SGM’s issues. It didn’t make any sense to me…UNTIL one day it hit me that these guys depend upon one another for their continued fame, or people’s perceptions of their increasing celebrity.”
Kris, thanks for the affirmation of what I said. I usually don’t come out and say it, because people freak out and accuse me of all sorts of things. They do not want to hear that the guy they love to hear and speaks such truth on stages might not be that person but someone else in real life.
If people only knew the serious business aspect of this, they would be convicted to forget all of them and just study with other nobody believers.
My wife consulted in Christian marketing for several years and that is what convicted her…through that she was able to work on me through the word and point out the cognative dissonance of what was taking place.
These guys do not live in the real world. They live in a ministry bubble. Most of them have nothing to tell us concerning living in the world as believers. They are insulated and live very comfortably.
Let me give you all ONE scenerio. There are others worse but this will give you some idea of what is going on out there..
pastor of a mega is paid 250,000/yr as salary. He has a huge compensation package that includes not only private school tuition for kids but 100,000 grand housing allowance. 10,000 book and material allowance. All conferences, etc are paid by the church. He gets 2 mos off per year. Plus a pension and payoff if he leaves of 3 years of salary…even if fired.
Now, he writes books and speaks, too. (And much of this takes place on church time) So, he keeps the advance from the publisher, royalties and it sells in the church bookstore. (Because a mega church bookstore can generate enough sales to get the attention of the booksellers)
He goes on the speaking circuit with his books (which are shipped ahead) and his buddy pastor who is dong the conference and who promotes his book there and in church. He in turn, has his buddy in to do a conference and promotes his book or materials.
This can be a yearly thing depending on the conference. Comp speakers are the most in demand and make some serious money, btw.
By the time the year is over, the pastor made another 150,000 in speaking gigs and a few thou from royalties. He employs his family in his own non profit ministry to run his brand. All the while taking a paycheck from the church. The churh is proud because he is so famous and making a name for them all.
There is one very well known author (and former pastor) we paid 50,000 to speak for 2 hours. I kid you not. I cannot give the name because I signed the contract. But he was that big and could command that amount…and that was 10 years ago. And of course, it filled up an 18,000 seat sanctuary.
It is not just reformed. the seeker guys perfected it and carved out the market. The reformed guys caught on and created their own.
That is why people contacting Piper, etc, is a waste of time unless it just makes them feel better. Piper knew before we did. And that is what people do not understand. It is like doctors who will never agree that another doctor was wrong. It is how they make their living. It is a club. (They will take swipes at the other side such as Rick Warren or Joel Osteen)
So, is this the way it is supposed to be? We think so highly of these guys because of their stage and speaking persona. but I have been around them….and now I can say I prefer the janitor at my daughter’s school for spiritual guidance. A great guy who lives out his sanctification. He has nothing to sell me and nothing to gain except my brotherly love.
You cannot live your life in the limelight with tons of people hanging on your every word and it not affect you. It is a huge sin trap. And the more affirmation, the worse it gets.
I am more likely to not trust anyone who is a celebrity Christian. I saw too much and know the kind of big money we are talking about. They become calloused and talk a good game about compassion but then get upset when someone questions paying their son’s plane ticket. That was so familiar…we ended up having to hire the pastors son because he got fired at his first small church in another state. he was hired on as “research” and was paid 80,000 grand. Are we stupid enough?
But they expect the single mom making 20 grand to tithe to please the Lord. It is sick and I fear they will answer for it. We should not enable this but it is hard to make people understand.
Don’t get me started on Challies. Or Piper.
I say, RUN, to Christ. Study to show yourself approved. You don’t need them. They make merchandise of the Gospel.