A Stenographer’s Notes – Part 1 From Covenant Life Church’s July 10, 2011 Family Meeting
July 11, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
From our friend “The Stenographer” comes the following set of notes:
7/10/11
Covenant Life Church (CLC) Family Meeting, led by Josh Harris (JH) – Part 1
The meeting began with a time of worship, followed by JH taking the mike. The following are my efforts at notes of what was said, but I’m not perfect, so please forgive the lapses or errors that become obvious when the actual audio gets posted.
JH: “CJ Will come and share, and after that he will be released and we will answer questions.
“Things that we want to cover tonight:
“We want to make it clear that it is all about him. He welcomes your questions. He wants to hear from people in CLC, answer their questions. He wants you to be able to ask questions and not feel constrained.
[missed wording of Josh thanking CJ] “Let’s welcome him as he comes.”
{applause}
CJ: “Thank you very much. You are very kind, particularly at this time.
“Because of my history with this church, my love for this church, I am so very grateful for this time this evening to address you. Thank you, Josh, particularly, for giving me this opportunity to address this church that I love the most.
“I am sure to some of you here this week, the charges against me have come as a complete shock, and I am so very sorry for that shock.
“Let me clarify something at the beginning: the object of this action is not your pastors, the object is me. This is not about them. This is all about me and Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM). Therefore, I can appeal to you to provide them with your full support and I fully anticipate your doing so.
This has been my prayer from the very beginning, that this would strengthen your relationship with them, not weaken that relationship with them with your support. And if you are angry, I understand, and you can direct that to me. My intention tonight is to share with you a few of the ways I believe I have sinned this evening, some of my failures and how we have arrived where we are this evening.
“A number of years ago I had come to realize there were a number of pastors who had offenses against me, and I began to pursue some of them for reconciliation. In January 2010 I communicated with Brent Detweiler (BD). He had left SGM in ’09. When I communicated with BD, he was not willing to meet with me.
He wrote a document outlining my sins and failures to SGM. After reading this document, I did not agree with a number of his points or the manner he presented them. Not to crucify B or to defend myself, but this information brings ways I have failed, and this what this evening is primarily about, how I processed and responded to an issue in 2003-2004 regarding certain deficiencies in my leading the team. Sadly rather than listen to their correction and examining my heart where recorded [can’t read my writing] might be sin in my heart and the way that prodded them and I behaved sinfully in that season. I was difficult to entreat; I was not easy to entreat. I sinfully judged their motives. I was arrogantly confident in my perspective. Different times I judged myself favorably to them. I was offended by a lack of care in my season of trials, and though we continued to work together, I gradually withdrew from them in my soul. I withdrew from them even after I agreed not to do so. I was confirming their charges by the way I was behaving.
In 2004 I began to see some of these sins, and those in my care group were able to see some evidence of growth present. Now that I look back at my perspectie and my confession of my sin, it can only be described as woefully inadequate. I never informed JH and Kenneth Maresco (KM) of DH and BD’s concerns.
When I first received it, I should have sent it to a group of men to help me see my sins more clearly. It showed… the effects of those sins on those I was called to serve with … and the affects of those sins. [I’m leaving out bits of my notes I am unable to read.]
Another affect of my sins, I have been poor at resolving conflict and tried to manage conflict on my own. In light of Brent’s offenses, I should have had the leadership team manage the conflct, should not have tried to manage Brent’s offenses on my own. For months I let this process drift. I thought it best to attempt negotiation in person and not in writing, but I let months drift.
Brent sent another document, 165 pages, where he pointed out more deficiencies, further illustrations of sins, and how my sins contributed to his release in 2009 (from SGM). I sent it to a group of men, asked them to read the document and let me know any arease where they agreed with the documents. I met with them after so I could give them my own perspective.
That was a sad and painful day, seeing the effects of my sin. At the end of the day I asked the men to forgive me, which they did. I then circled around to other men. I then sought to meet with Brent, and sought a 3rd party. Brent then [(?)missing words(?)] and asked me to review the documents again. I recused myself.
John Loftness (JL) then cataloged all Brents charges and spent a day going offer each of the charges with greater specirficity and I crafted a different document of ten pages or so. Brent did not find this adequate. Ken Sande reached out to Brent, which he declined. And we discussed involving a different outside party. Brent sent a 3rd document pointing out deficiences when Larry Tomczak left Atlanda. We had a conflict over how Larry described his leaving SGM. It grieves me to report to you that in a phone conversation where I sought to coerce Larry, that I coerced him. My public announcement of his departure was self-righteous critical of Larry. I was in sin and at that time I was blind to my own sin, and I am deeply grieved by that.
But by the Grace of God I am happy to report that seven months before Brent’s 3rd document a letter had alrrived on my desk that Larry appealed that we meet and be reconciled. I wrote back to Larry and said, “Let’s do it!” We began to meet in Tennessee. I am humbled and I am delighted to let you know that we met and I repented of my sins to Larry and Doris. They freely forgave me in a meeting we had in Nashville in December of last year [12/2010]. Larry and I stood side by side and started this church [CLC]. We stood side by side and started SGM. And in November I have asked Larry to come and be our special guest at the Pastors’ Conference where we will once again stand side by side. [applause] Actually we won’t stand side by side. I think it would be more appropriate for me to stand aside. And he has been a wonderful example to me of forgiveness. I want to emulate that.
There have certainly been other examples where I have contradicted what I have taught, where I have certainly displeased tand dishonored God. But in the past year and a half I have seen more sin and growth in a way more thorough than I have ever previously. These months have quite obviously been from God. I believe God is disciplining me for my failures and I am glad for his discipline [cant read my notes…] The object of his discipline is his love and care… [can’t read…] In this season my temptation has been more to be overwhelmed and to loose sight of the gospel, but when that happens my lovely wife is always there and good friends to remind me that the discipline of the lord is not punitive, it is the love of the Saviour to save me from my sins. And there is always grace, how sweet the sound. [Cannot decifer notes…] I bear a unique and primary responsibility for all that took place with Larry 14 years ago and in 1994 and I am grateful to God that in some degree I am reversing(?) that leadership failure. I am a sinner in need of grace, probably more grateful than ever before what Jesus did with my sins upon the cross.
There is an element I do not agree with in Brent thinks my sins contributed detrimentally to his leaving SGM. We are creating a panel to evaluate this situation, SGM as a whole. I am removed so I have no influence in this process. […leave of absense… independent panel… ] I want each charge evaluated. The information will be made public and communicated to you, and I am looking forward to this panel. But this evening is about attempting to communicate my sorrow for my sin, and my leadership failures and its effects on others and its effects on the church I love the most. So, I think it would be most appropriate for me to ask your forgiveness for these sins that I have identified.
VOICES FROM THE CONGREGATION:
“We forgive you, CJ!” ::clapping::
CJ: [This section of my notes very difficult to read]
Anyway, thank you. You have forgiven the acts of these sins, I am asking… I don’t want you to feel in any way obligation to forgive me but it certainly would be appropriate to thank you… [words missingg] I am here this evening to ask you to forgive me for these sins and their effects on you. Would you please forgive me?
VOICES FROM CONGREGATION: “Yes!”
CJ: That is very kind.
Please pray for me, and before I conclude, let me give you my even greater burden this evening. I want to do all I can to guard the gospel; I want to do all I can to guard the gospel of Christ and him crucified. I want to do all I can to protect your relationship with the pastors at this local church. I want to do all I can to protect all the churches in SGM. I have the deepest respect for the pastors and members and I don’t want to harm you or them in any way. So, I want to do all I can to protect the pastors and churches in SGM. Most importantly, I want to please God. I want to please Him and I want to crucify sin, whatever this requires of me. So please pray for me, and please pray for Sovereign Grace in [missing word] and our matters of policy and practice that need to be addressed and appear as team leader, a primary responsibility for these arise since these have been revealed on my watch. [Section I cannot decipher… like Please don’t case in a catelot, assume of churches or pastors by any means.] There are so many churches in SGM filled with evidences of grace, so while I acknowledge deficiences I want to acknowledge evidences of grace in each and each church.
Areas that need polity: Steps of accountability… need to be addressed, and we have been aware of it for 2 years. How we evaluate pastors needs to be addressed. Some in the past has been inconsistent, and in some missing. It has to be …[consistent?].How pastors correct one another, this needs to be addressed. How we resolve conflict needs to be addressed. So please pray for Sovereign Grace and those in charge of SG as they work on these areas. Pray that Brent and I will be reconciled We were once good friends. The negotiations I have had with LT gives me hope. Please pray that God would be glorified through all this by reconciling broken relationships
… [missing words..] of the gospel. Issues of the gospel, that has so graciously saved each of us.
CONGREGATION: Applause (30 seconds)
[Then as CJ came down from the stage, Josh joined him, and Robin also, and Robin prayed for him.]
[CJ speaks very fast, and I could by no means keep up with him, and my notetaking is rusty, but this has been my best shot. Hopefully CLC will come through and post the audio like they promised. Then my transcription errors can be corrected.]
“The Stenographer”
Many thanks to “The Stenographer”!
CJ said –
“It grieves me to report to you that in a phone conversation where I sought to coerce Larry, that I coerced him.”
Lets see….
Coercion – The intimidation of a victim to compel the individual to do some act against his or her will by the use of psychological pressure, physical force, or threats.
Blackmail- In common usage, blackmail is a crime involving threats to reveal substantially true and/or false information about a person to the public, a family member, or associates unless a demand is met.
Seems to me that while coercion was correct, the tem Blackmail is the most accurate description of what he did.
:spin
I get it, his intention was coercion, but he ended up blackmailing Larry.
*sigh*
Uh CJ Your still missing the point. Yes the Sr Pastors in Sovereign Grace still have some talking to do. They are taking cover from some of the same charges..
The gospel can guard itself….CJ..Thats what the Holy Spirit is for…
Gag on all the clapping. Your leader has hurt many and decieved many…clapping…..He has not been honest with your hard earned money in this economy…clapp….your sons and daughters have been kicked out on their own, and given harsh judgements that no one can bear….clap clap clap…families have been ripped apart by CJ interpreation of the “Gospel” Clap, Clap Clap…there is a time and place for everything. This is not the time or the place for clapping… :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
There is no repentance until they make an open honest statement about bungling sex abuse cases and doing serious damage to children and families.
That’s just for starters, but it would make a good start.
It’s getting tiresome listening to them talk about their interpersonal pastoral/apostolic relationships. How about they talk about reconciliation with low level nobody people in the flocks they were supposed to shepherd? Does anybody really care about all the insider strife? How about the long trail of damaged kids and teens and women?
Ugh.
a,
That was my thought exactly.
Hold your applause and see what they actually do…..only time will tell.
a –
I get the feeling that the “We forgive you, CJ!” ::clapping::” was said in the spirit of, “We don’t care what you did, CJ.”
:barf:
Have any of you guys looked at the comments on CJ’s fb page? Many people have taken that attitude unassimilated. It breaks my heart at how deeply distorted their vision has become and is sobering because I was once there as well. I can only hope and pray God starts removing scales and opens ears.
The “We forgive you” chorus… unbelievable.
somehow, this all reminds me of an Amway meeting, but much, much worse.
Yeah, a reader told me about CJ’s Facebook fan page and copied and pasted a couple of the comments into an email so I could get a sense for how people have responded.
There’s a lot about how, “Surprise! CJ’s not perfect! He’s human just like the rest of us!”
I don’t get it. I mean, I really don’t get it.
It’s kind of like how people defend even the worst abuse by saying, “No church is perfect.” Well, duh – of course no church is perfect. But there are degrees of imperfection, levels of dysfunction. Pointing out glaring problems (or downright unethical/illegal stuff like blackmail) does NOT mean that someone who talks about a church’s problems is expecting perfection.
There’s a huge gulf between demanding perfection and asking that your church have formal accountability for its leaders and that pastors don’t function as incompetent counselors, demanding that sex abuse victims demonstrate immediate forgiveness to the perpetrators…and failing to pursue the proper legal channels for crimes.
There’s also a huge gulf between allowing someone the grace to be “only human”…and allowing someone to exhibit horrific hypocrisy and even commit a crime like blackmail.
Come on, people. THINK.
This was certainly the low point of the meeting. My parents, both die-hard CJ fans and SGM members from the beginning, both told me how unimpressed they were with CJ’s “confession” and how little it seemed like he even now understands of how serious his offenses have been. They also criticized CJ’s flat-out asking of forgiveness, especially after such an incomplete and biased confession – it seemed like he was just trying to get some applause.
The applause was unfortunately predictable, but from my perspective (in the actual “cheap seats,” the high rows of the bleachers) it didn’t look like any more than maybe half the congregation were responding or clapping during those times, and it was mostly just the ones down front.
One thought came to me this evening when I was out.
I previously commented on how sad it was for Mahaney to assume he would be at the Pastors’ conference coming up later this year and stand there with Larry Tomczak etc. That shouldn’t be something for him to decide after all he has done.
My thought was why is Mahaney even smugly so sure that there will be a pastors’ conference later this and for that matter that Sovereign Grace won’t implode before the scheduled date of the pastors’ conference? Does Mahaney not realize what affect his sin and the sin of the other SGM Leaders that didn’t do anything about his sin might have on SGM?
Harris did good a job on Sunday night of shoring up at least his church from implosion but that isn’t a guarantee that it still won’t happen. It is still quite possible that CLC and/or SGM may implode or have a big split. This is especially probable when you hear how smugly SGM Fairfax and SGM Richmond (Kingsway) Leaders took this revelation about Mahaney.
It is appalling to read where Mahaney to be making all these assumptions. It is like he is saying I confessed my sin of deception that went on for 14 years, said there are problems we need to address, reconciled with Tomczak so things will just continue. Mahaney may find things might not work this way.
It might serve Mahaney well (play on SGM terms) to do some reading on David and the consequences that happened as a result of David’s sin with Bathsheba. The effect of David’s sin both on himself and Israel was quite severe. Nathan prophesied that what David did in private others were going to do to his concubine in broad daylight and it happened. David found himself having to flee etc. As I recall it also caused a civil war in Israel.
Does Mahaney not even think that some similar type of judgement might happen to him and SGM as a result of his sin? It sounds like he doesn’t even think there is a possibility. How sad.
It is encouraging to hear Josh call for fasting and prayer. It is a shame you don’t hear about this from pastors of other SGM Churches, especially Kingsway and Fairfax. Plead to God for mercy. Kingsway has already seen some judgment with loss of members. The reports about Fairfax Leaders is pretty sad.
Maybe Mahaney ought to read Psalm 51 and take that approach not to mention a “sackcloth and ashes” attitude.
Wow, you guys are brutal. Whats the deal? Are you saved or not? If you are saved why are you not Forgiving as Jesus forgave you? Reread 1 Cor 13-the LOVE chapter. Just because you left SGM dosent mean you should hate it, does it?
@5yearsin PDI: I don’t know that you’re going to see any statements about sex abuse cases, etc. So far, the only things I’ve seen mentioned stem from Brent’s documents and I don’t recall seeing anything in those documents about the things you mention. I would think those statements would need to come from the Fairfax leadership and other pastors, but I’m new here and may have missed similar stories coming from former CLC members.
Obviously, JH has mentioned the blogs. It will be interesting to see how far he takes things with respect to addressing issues from the blogs that aren’t in The Documents. I suppose the May 22 meeting did that to some extent, but I wonder if there will be more. I think it unlikely he will press further into past issues related to churches other than CLC, unless he influences the SGM board to move in that direction.
I’ll certainly be watching to see if the SGM Board ever addresses anything publicly beyond charges in The Documents. I doubt that will happen given what’s been said so far. It sounds like any outside panel will simply be asked to investigate the charges brought forth by Brent as they relate to CJ and the SGM Board.
I will also be watching to see if there’s any official policy developed to address pastoral handling of illegal activity (e.g. spousal abuse, sexual abuse), such that it must be reported to civil authorities. Given the situations I’ve read about here, I can’t help but wonder, “If teenage child of member X became angry and killed child of member Y, would that be immediately reported or handled in-house.” I’ve been thinking a lot about Micah 6:8 – “do justly, love mercy” – and it seems the former has sometimes been forsaken in the name of the latter.
[I am currently a member of an SGM church.]
Whirlwind,
I’m convinced that SGM would NEVER cover up a crime like murder.
Sexual crimes are different (or were different?) to the pastors because of what I think is their incomplete understanding of the nature of that sort of behavior. In the stories that I’ve heard, there was a persistent assumption that molestation was “primarily a lust issue” and needed to be dealt with accordingly.
I would tend to think, though, that since Noel and Happymom have gone public, policies have changed.
At least, I hope they have changed.
“Let me clarify something at the beginning: the object of this action is not your pastors, the object is me. This is not about them. This is all about me and Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM). Therefore, I can appeal to you to provide them with your full support and I fully anticipate your doing so.” (CJ)
Josh made this point, too. And did we not hear it somewhere else, too?
There is a reason they are all saying this over and over. They are trying to contain it and make it about CJ (and by default) Brent only. Brent, watch out, I can see the backlash now that you have refused his attempts to talk and are piling on. Why can’t you be nice like Larry? It might into ‘poor CJ” before long and most people will miss the bigger picture. Which would be the strategy? CJ is all fixed now…carry on.
They are framing the issue.
This also keeps the molestations and other spiritual abuse charges out of it when they can make it about CJ only and not the larger culture of the leadership. I would say they are playing people like violins. As in, ‘protect the other leadership and pastors. CJ can ride this out. then we do not have to deal with the larger issue of sgm culture’
Guys, Josh is from the same mold as CJ. He grew up in this stuff where his family made a living off ministry. It is all he knows. And he grew up in the legalism that fits nicely with SGM. He might be a nice guy but he has fit right into sgm and did not seem to have a problem with the culture all this time.
And I did catch that CJ said he decided to take the leave but he is not really leaving is he? He will be close by as in his office talking to the peacemaking strategizers. This has been well played.
Incidentally, in regard to Micah 6:8, I hope many CJ supporters realize we need to “do justly” and “love mercy”, by possibly removing him from his position of leadership (justice), yet allowing him to remain as a forgiven member in an SGM church (mercy). SGM leadership needs to demonstrate appropriate justice and mercy in humility before the Lord.
If he’s not removed from leadership, I just hope we’re not told it’s because the Tomczak family has forgiven him and sees no problem with him continuing in leadership, or because those things happened so long ago. Then I may break down and use the puking emoticon – which I really don’t want to do. :wink:
MH,
Do you go to a SG church?
Sidney
@Kris – I wouldn’t really expect an SGM church to handle a crime like murder in house. I’ve just been a bit puzzled as to how some pastors could draw the line they have between the two. It would sort of be like minimizing murder by saying it is primarily an anger issue. If nothing else, it seems like putting your child in place of the victim would help you see things a bit more clearly.
I am just catching up on this stuff. CJ states on his blog, “These charges are not related to any immorality”….um. I think a pastor that threatens to publically expose someone’s confessed sin..is immoral…. the threat itself was immoral. How can anyone trust pastoral counseling if a pastor does that? No leave of absence – he should just step down.
“Wow, you guys are brutal. Whats the deal? Are you saved or not? If you are saved why are you not Forgiving as Jesus forgave you? Reread 1 Cor 13-the LOVE chapter. Just because you left SGM dosent mean you should hate it, does it?”
Forgiveness does not always mean instant trust
Forgiveness does not mean there are not life long consequences
Forgiveness does not always mean reconcilation
In your world, Mark. All concern is hate. All negative truths are hate. I am familiar with your world and cheap grace that comes with it. Well, cheap grace for some. Not so much for others.
In fact, you might be surprised to learn that Jesus does not forgive us unless we repent. And as we grow in Holiness, we are repenting every day. Just not for the same sin over and over all our lives because as we grow we discover more sin that we did not even think of sin before. The joy is that we are being conformed to His Image.
Remember that every word that we say is accounted for………………theses sex abuse cases are none of anyones buisnes except those that are involved in them and who they want involved in them. This is NOT WISDOM to be even bringing them up! you are not thinking about how these children will be affected later in life. To even bring these things up again and again even in the slightest way on this blog is WRONG . PLEASE have enough compassion for those children that have been victims and I beg you to please not try to dig up info !
I am a member and love my church CLC
Whirlwind,
I don’t get the mindset either. In SGM’s defense, I will say that I have not heard any present-day stories of sex abuse that are being handled the way that Noel’s situation was.
Perhaps they have come up with better policies?
Perhaps someone has already mentioned this and I missed it, but I noticed on the Sovereign Grace Ministries page, they have a little blurb before CJ’s comment. It was written by Dave Harvey. It says:
“After last week’s announcement about C.J. Mahaney’s leave of absence, the pastors at Covenant Life Church called a member’s meeting so that C.J. could address the congregation.”
Excuse me? Was the meeting called “so that C.J. Could address the congregation”?
The CLC blog says the meeting was called “to hear the pastor’s respond to questions submitted by members regarding C.J. Mahaney’s leave of absence as President of SGM.”
The SGM comment struck me as odd. It’s my understanding that the meeting was not about C.J., but for the church to raise legitimate questions to it’s pastors. I wonder why SGM felt the need to spin the reason for the meeting?
I just don’t understand how they can praise him, clap, applaud, etc. It grieves my spirit at how blindly these people follow him, even into his folly.
Friends, one Question. Is it any of OUR business what is happening in SGM? Who are we to even waste time blogging about this. You people don`t know me, so don`t tell me whats in “My World”. You Critics need to mind your own business, don`t you think?
I find that “loving a church” is setting yourself up for a huge fall. I don’t know that I’ll ever venture to “love” a church again. Be careful, Dara K, about “loving” a church. What you’re doing by “loving” your church is giving your affection and loyalty to man. That’s dangerous…
Trust me. (These wise words were once spoken to me by a woman whom I love. She was right.)
Sidney
And i don`t have Cheap Grace. It was expensive in that Jesus gave his life. Is any Church perfect? nope. Is it right to point to the imperfect people and dwell on that for hours? Nope. Would Jesus Blog about SGM, Nope. Yes I was a member of a SGM church, but they RIGHTLY booted me out for sin. Praise GOD. Love you guys, lets just get along,
MH,
If you go to CLC, your pastor, Josh, was pretty open about the blog folk. He was asked a question regarding calling us “detractors” and “critics.” He apologized and confessed wrongful speaking about the blog folk and said that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. That we are not bad. That they should read the blogs and interact with us. That the blogs aren’t porn. If you don’t go to CLC, ask your pastors for permission. Get their approval that we are OK to interact with. We’re not lepers. In fact, you might know some of us. We might have been friends in a previous life.
Sidney
Sidney #29 – :goodpost
@MH: You ask, “Is it any of OUR business what is happening in SGM?”
Well, as a member of an SGM church, given SGM polity, the decisions the SGM Board makes relate to me and my family and my church. As well, some portion of the money I give to my church is being funneled to them. It pays their salaries and they make use of it in other ways through their decision-making.
So, yes, I do consider it my business. I’d prefer all the information come directly from them rather than through blogs, but, unfortunately, it’s not.
Sidney, Hi. I guess my “Attitude” is coming from confusion, and the fact that my Idols are falling all around me. When I was in a SGC the “Confessing our sins to one another” really was overblown. In fact I heard one say”You can`t grow in grace unless you confess to your caregroup”, or something like that. Which I dont find the Caregroup mentioned in 1 John 1:9
Whirlwind, You are right on. Please forgive the “Attitude”
Sidney #27: well said.
I attend CLC .. but blind love for any church, any [fill in the blank with anything except God/Jesus] can be a dangerous thing.
Thanks Mark, for sticking with the thread. I appreciate you saying what you did.
All of our idols are falling. We’re in this together….
Sidney
as a long time member of CLC i find it confusing and weird that you people who left SGM/CLC think you can criticize a MEMBERS meeting. The very fact that it was a clc family meeting means it was for members of the church and why you all think you can be unforgiving, hateful and prideful is beyond me. Yes our church freely forgave CJ. This doesn’t mean instant trust obviously but the pastors example of humility is outstanding. To restate as you are not members of CLC or SGM(and most of you are not as a voluntary action) then you have no right to judge us members for being able to forgive our leaders when you were not able to do so.
Why does SGM not provide proof in the form of emails and meeting notes to disprove what has been brought against them.
Seriously ??? it would sure end things quicker if there were just some kind of documents to back up what CJ said in the above statement……
I guess it is possible that some kind of proof will appear?
happyinclc, you are missing our whole point.
We WERE members with you in SGM, until SGM leadership, under the direction of CJ, (now exposed in sin all along) had us abused, pursued, accused, in mostly ungodly ways. (A lot more than CJ needs to be exposed here.)
Many of us had NO IDEA what was happening to our brothers and sisters, until it happened to us too.
We are trying to expose the facts of what happened to us, and what is happening to other RIGHT NOW, and hopefully before it happens to you too.
I don’t know, but I just might call it an act of LOVE, for YOU.
If we the abused didn’t still love you, we would just go on and await your arrival at our sides to lick YOUR wounds too.
NO we will not be silenced! It is out of love for the Bride of Christ in SGM (that includes YOU happy…) that we do what we do here so that perhaps it just might be exposed someday and the sinful abuse will STOP.
Your Brother in Christ (hopefully),
Defender
Happilyatclc,
Do you know what, specifically, you forgave him for?
Jester
happilyinclc, if I understand you correctly, you are saying it is the sole propriety of “the insiders” to qualify actions and establishing the criteria for qualifying actions.
Isn’t that essentially what CJ has been doing for all of these years of which he so recently partially repented??
happilyinclc,
as someone who is still in clc to help others see change, i hope you are taking this seriously. if we don’t criticize those we are learning from, how can we trust what they are telling us? if we don’t criticize and ask questions, we are just blindly following without forming our own opinions. i think too many people in the church are worshiping the pastors instead of the lord, and it would be my guess that those were the people shouting forgiveness and clapping the loudest at the meeting the other night. yes, the pastors need encouragement during this time, we can’t just turn against them and shun them. i think it’s only christian to give them a chance to change, and be open with criticism and open to see their many faults.
please don’t be one of those people who just blindly follows and doesn’t see this as a big deal. or someone who doesn’t look into the real details behind what accusations are being brought forward (although if you’ve ended up on this site, it looks like you’re at least checking things out – very good!) because it IS a big deal. our pastors have seriously screwed up, and it’s time for them to change. and it’s time for the congregation to truly see them for who they really are – sinners. no, not the glorified “i’m the worst sinner ever” – true sinners in need of a savior, and a LOT of change.
@Jester. Yes I know what i specifically forgave him for. I made a priority of reading Brent’s documents before the meeting and listened to his(CJ( confession and asking for forgiveness. While we are to extended forgiveness freely it does not mean that we do so without thinking about what the person is asking forgiveness for.
@katie. “although if you’ve ended up on this site, it looks like you’re at least checking things out-very good!” This implies something that is entirely untrue. I am not “checking things out” because I agree with what most of you are saying. I came to this site to get to the links of the documents.
@defender. correct me if i am wrong but you seem to be implying that WHEN SGM screws me up I WILL come back here to voice what has happened. I would not do so. It appears to me that alot of people are judging on here and are still filled and tainted with and by bitterness. God forbid something does happen to promote my leaving SGM i would not be divulging details all over the internet for others to comment on, i would tell those who are closest to me and who i think would need to know and I pray that I would have a forgiving attitude and not be resentful at all and gossiping about the leaders.
HappilyinCLC,
Are you kidding me?
Your pastor, Josh, addressed your arrogant attitude last night. Were you there? Did you already forget. (I call it an arrogant attitude because I was just like you. I know the rapid heartbeat you had when you started reading these once-forbidden blogs. I know how you feel about these horrible, angry, bitter people speaking hateful things about your beloved CLC. I know. Because I was once exactly like you. I am sad to say that, but those I hurt have forgiven me.)
And it bears repeating, he instructed you “current members” …the only ones that matter (in your opinion)….that we contributing on blogs are your brothers and sisters in Christ, our stories are valid, you should interact with us. We are not bad. He gave you permission to do that.
He told you to come here, but he didn’t tell you to come here so you can attack.
The first thing you do is come here and confront? You come here and try to shut people up? This is not what he told you to do. Please honor your pastor.
There would be no blogs if there were no problems.
Sidney
Jasper,
:huh
Help me to better understand what you are saying. If I follow your logic correctly (and correct me if I do not), Because CJ operated from an exclusion “insider only” method or model of leadership while he was leading Sovereign Grace, the members should not be the ones who are primarily involved with the process of constructing the new form of church government that we(not you) will be living under. And instead we should allow the formation of church polity to be determined by people who are not members of our church. We are repeating the sins of our leader by not turning over our churches governance to the blogs to create and dictate? That does not make sense. You logic is flimsy to say the least.
HappilyinCLC,
I just read your last comment. You said this to Katie “I came to this site to get to the links of the documents.”
In the meantime, you also slammed your brothers and sisters in Christ.
Feel free to move on once you’ve gotten the links. You are not required to stay here. Being nice is good. If you want to be nice, that will be good. But don’t be hang out and be mean.
Sidney
Sorry for commenting so much. I have just burned my brain tonight reading several dozen more pages…I’m still on Part 2 and having an extremely hard time digesting it all. I find that I can only read small sections and then I have to do something else….
I do love God first and Im also grateful that he has given me a church(CLC) to go to and to be in with my fellow sinners……………to worship him but thankfully I live in a free country and at this point worship Jesus freely at any time:) As far as it being “dangerous” I understand that anyones church/community/friends/job etc can be an idol – I appreciate your thoughts…….thank you for your input sydney……………
Matt,
While these guys have earned the distrust people have toward them, Joshua Harris’ behavior doesn’t strike me as the slick PR we’re accustomed to. I’m afraid that people will let their cynicism get in the way of what could be a really good thing here. That’s not to say people should drop their complaints and stop looking for tricks being played on them. But Joshua Harris simply hasn’t had enough time and space to deal with this and we shouldn’t rush to judgment just yet.
Yes, I know people wonder why he didn’t say anything sooner, but they seem to forget that CJ was very much in control until a week or so ago.
happilyinclc,
i’m glad to hear you’re reading the documents, etc and glad you went to the meeting educated. sorry i jumped to conclusions there. i’m just afraid some people aren’t taking this seriously and are continuing to worship the pastors.
(my page crashed when i tried to post this before so i hope it doesn’t show up twice. kris, feel free to delete if it does) :-/
I remember a friend once told me that the christian church is the only army that shoots its own wounded. Many of us that post here have been wounded and shot. Some have been wounded, ignored, and left to bleed. Some wounds that have been posted here would not have been dealt with otherwise. I’m not a member but I still attend. I tithe and give there too. So yes, we can criticize a “members” meeting. Having a free press with a critical eye will hopefully help the “change” that is sorely needed there for both friends and family that are members.
Trust is earned, not just given. Distrust is earned too. Trust that is abused has a job that is twice as hard to re-earn. For my $$$, CJ has no business on any stage (and that includes the Pastor’s College) for any reason for at least a year. Unfortunately, preaching was how he earned a living to support his family. My suggestion, let him sit for half a year, at half salary, then send him to England under Terry Virgo. Having him on the other side of the world to heal might help. Having an a fellow elder that is not in awe of his talent or having once been under his authority, or in the future under his authority to pull his chain might help the healing process. Just a thought.
I’m starting to get a different take on you bloggers here. I think I even know some of you!
My concern is primarily for you when I say this, though, so please hear me out:
:mic
wouldn’t be better if we just got CJ, held him down, and administered a good old fashioned flogging?
I mean SHEEE
:beat