Dave Harvey Dons Pajamas And Heads Down To His Mom’s Basement…
July 16, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
[For anyone who is wondering about the title of this post, it’s an allusion to a statement made by SGM pastor Eric Simmons, who a couple of years ago presented a teaching to singles in which he declared that bloggers were losers who hung out in their pajamas all day and still lived in their mothers’ basements.]
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Well, it looks like Dave Harvey has become a real blogger. After all these years, the SGM website is allowing an unprecedented level of free discussion, publishing readers’ comments, even negative comments. Mr. Harvey put up this post yesterday:
Friends, critics, and curious onlookers,
Thank you all for engaging with us so much over the last week as we’ve attempted to tell you what’s going on with respect to this very difficult season in Sovereign Grace Ministries. There have been hundreds of comments on this blog and no shortage of emails. We’re learning from your input and I’m grateful that you chose to speak rather than dismiss us, to spend your time writing rather than just closing the window. Even the most critical comments represent an investment of your time and energy, but we see it as an act of service. Fostering constructive criticism in a digital world has not been a strong point in our communication historically.
This week has been very challenging, and heading into the weekend I am aware of some places where we screwed up. I’ll make no attempt to be exhaustive, but here are some highlights:
Lack of clarity in Wednesday’s board announcement. When we posted our resolutions on Wednesday, people were quick to infer that we were “circling the wagons.” And I think I understand that interpretation. We should have been a lot more clear about our resolve for self-evaluation, growth, integrity, and honest dialogue. So I’m not surprised that folks wrote to tell us of their heartbreak and stomach knots in response to our post, and I do regret that. Believe it or not, at the time we had a lot of people contacting us saying, ”We need to know exactly and without qualification what you think about all of this.” Communicating our “resolutions” seemed a precise way to convey all that. More seem to disagree than agree, and we’ve heard you. On top of that, we got more criticism even from our biggest fans on the lack of clarity in a couple of the resolutions. We amended the post to answer one common question, but I wish we had just nailed it the first time. All that to say, we messed up our delivery and in the process confused our #1 audience—the people in Sovereign Grace churches. It was a halting start for our new board, but we’re determined to do better. You all have asked a lot of valid questions and we’re grateful that these events mean so much to so many.
Lack of emphasis on self-evaluation. When people are tempted to think that you are (and I’ll pull from our vast supply of quotes here) “gaming the system,” engaging in “cronyism,” “going to war,” behaving with “hubris,” “presumptuous and self-serving,” and, well you get the idea—you’ve got the burden of ensuring they know you get the point. What’s the point? God is drawing our gaze inward as an organization. Not in a hyper-introspective-there’s-no-mission-out-there manner. But in a way that makes it clear to everyone, we have problems. Some of these were already on the radar, others surfaced more recently. But we’re going to face them. All of them. What I want to get across to people through how we handle this (and not just with what we say) is that we want to be more rigorous in our self-examination than anyone else is with us. We want to be leading the charge in that, not playing catch up.
Process over people. This insight came from a Sovereign Grace pastor, and looking back at our communication I have to say we are guilty as charged. For some reason we had this impulse that if we explained a series of steps of evaluation to everyone, that would somehow address the concerns that some members of our churches have about SGM more broadly. Now I think it would be wrong to paint every pastor, pastoral team, and church member with the same broad brush. But that doesn’t mean that there are no areas of our hearts and practice that need rigorous attention. I’m going to discuss some of those in a post next week. But even that isn’t the point here. The regrettable fact is that some dear members of Sovereign Grace churches have been hurt over the years, and no independent panel’s evaluation of us can fix that. We hope to do a better job of listening to those folks, learning from them, and owning where we’ve been wrong. See, if all we do is self-evaluate and improve our systems, failing in the meantime to pastor people through the process, we’ve missed the point. I’m committed, actually the whole board is committed, to not letting that happen.
Well friends, that’s not the whole list, but it’s a start. We’re on rocky terrain, but I think we’re heading in the right direction.
To our friends and detractors alike, can I make an appeal about C.J.? The guy has voluntarily stepped aside from his role as president to ensure he would not influence any evaluation of him. He will be placed under the scrutiny of two different panels. He has written two detailed confessions to Brent and confessed publicly to the pastors and members of Covenant Life Church. He has spent over a year examining his soul and reaching out to people who are offended with him. In some cases there has been reconciliation (including with Larry Tomczak, who reached out to C.J.). In others there has not, but he’s trying and praying. Despite appearances to the contrary, C.J.’s self examination didn’t begin last week, and no doubt it will continue —as it should for all of us. But can I appeal that we not rush to judgment but rather think about him the way we would want to be evaluated if someone came forward against us?
Before I close out, let me just say something that I think will resonate with all of us. God’s not asking us to choose between sides or between people here. He wants us to choose Him. We don’t have all the answers, but because of the cross we’re connected to the One who does. And he will help us show a watching world the unity we have in Christ. God is at work…for our good and His Glory!
Enjoy your weekend. I’ll be back in touch soon.
Brent Detwiler has also been writing. He sent us the following:
Did I follow Matthew 18:15-17? The answer is yes. I have gone to CJ countless times “in private” but he did not listen. Then, I’ve gone with “the testimony of two or three witnesses” countless times but he also refused to listen. These two steps have been repeated time and again over the last decade. More than with any leader we have ever disciplined or removed from ministry. It was due to our cowardice and favoritism that we never took step 3 which says we must “tell it to the church.” That is one reason why (but not the only – that awaits another document) I sent my documents out to the SGM pastors on July 6. C.J.’s longstanding patterns of serious sins have been the best kept secret in SGM for many years. Unfortunately, the new Board under Dave Harvey’s leadership, has condemned my action. On July 13, they posted on the SGM blog “that Brent Detwiler’s distribution of written accusations against C.J. Mahaney to all Sovereign Grace pastors constitutes the public slander of Mahaney’s reputation.” My friends are mistaken.
People have asked why such length and detail in “The Documents”. 1) They were written gradually over 18 mos. 2) Each document built upon the other because I was not getting honest answers. 3) I wanted to be as accurate & fair as possible. 4) I had to anticipate SGM might discredit them as incomplete, inaccurate & revisionist (which they’ve done). 5) I’ve never made headway w/ C.J. unless there’s an overwhelming case.
I say, “Welcome to the blogosphere.”
Mom’s basement isn’t such a bad place to hang out. And PJs are pretty comfy, aren’t they?
Kris, I’m laughing out loud! You are great! Maybe the guys could go with sweats at first…you know, baby steps.
Already Gone –
:D
Repost from the last thread:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/An-honest-take-on-a-difficult-week.aspx#disqus_thread
The SGM board blog is taking very hard questions, and Andrew asked me what it would take to make amends regarding ex member abuses.
PLEASE GO POST THERE! Rose, Noel, happymom, FSGP, DB, Andy. etc etc. You can see what I posted and his reply and my response. They need to hear from you. Please do not bungle this opportunity, please!!!!
******
This is the second time I have posted at the SGM board about bungled and covered up sex abuse cases, and my comments were left up and responded to. NOW is the time to go there and post about what it will take to make amends with YOU.
Maybe nothing will ever happen. Maybe Josh will apologize, maybe not. Maybe the board will, maybe not. But now is a God given opportunity to say in writing to the SGM board what you think restitution and repentance towards you looks like. Please, speak up there. Do it for the people still in SGM, reading the official blog. They need to hear it, no matter what happens with you. If you don’t they can just say “see, all they want to do is whine elsewhere”. Please, take a moment and reply to Andrew. Thanks!!!
I was thinking of what advice I’d offer Mr. Harvey.
Number one on the list would be, “Quit being so reactive.” If people want a definitive statement about CJ’s fitness for ministry, you don’t have to give one to them. But if you do give one, make sure it’s accurate and then stand by it, even if you don’t like other people’s responses to your statement.
Number two would be to quit protecting CJ. Yes, we get it – you love the guy and can’t stand to see him down. That much was evident through the 600 pages of documents Brent Detwiler posted. It seems like your love for CJ and desire to protect him are two big factors in why you guys are in the awkward position you’re in right now. So just quit it already. Let CJ go for his quiet time of reflection, or his “season of repentance,” or whatever it is you’re calling it, and stop trying to control how people react to that.
Number three would follow close on the heels of number two – you guys would do well to quit trying to control things. Again, an unhealthy desire to control EVERYTHING is a big reason why the SGM organization has problems. If you’re sincere in your desire to change, then change this. Let people react how they’re going to react. Have integrity and make your decisions and then let the chips fall where they may. Quit trying to manage SGM’s image.
Number four – Seek the perspective of outsiders and do some research into the characteristics of cultic and controlling groups. Examine how you guys may have unwittingly become cultic in your tactics.
For example, you might want to rethink SGM’s apparent need to present a 100%-unified front to the world. Your explanation about why Josh Harris stepped down from SGM’s board was disturbing, because apparently you guys are blind to the fact that in “NORMAL” Christianity, disagreeing with a mere “2%” (as you claim Josh Harris does) of what the rest of a board of directors thinks would not necessitate the “2% dissenter’s” stepping down off that board. A drive for lockstep homogeneity among leadership is what got you guys into hot water. CJ would not have felt driven to blackmail Larry Tomczak if it had not been so essential to the PDI/SGM way that Larry not express his theological disagreements. Dissent and differences of opinion are NORMAL, Mr. Harvey. “100% agreement” is abnormal…and, in the real world, if people are honest, it NEVER exists. If you think your board without Josh Harris is now in “100% agreement,” you’re kidding yourself. At least some of the men are thinking other things but feel pressure from you to fall in line or face their own de-giftings.
Someone from the outside world would be able to point this out. But you’re going to have to open yourselves up to the idea that SGM does indeed share a lot of traits with dysfunctional and cultlike control-oriented groups. You’d do well to look at those lists (there are a ton available online) and take some notes about what to avoid.
Well, I’m sure others out there will have additional advice. But this is what comes to me off the top of my head. Maybe I’ll add more later.
@ 5 years. I agree this is a great opportunity for CLC and SGM to come clean and get a fresh start but per Matt 5:23-24“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.” Andrew should come here. The stories are here to read. They could humble themselves and engage the people here in conversation. They could ask Guy and Kris and other leaders for advice on how to make amends and what needs to change in SGM. It sure would be shocking and refreshing to actually “see” some of this humilty that has been talked about.
My dear brothers and sisters at CLC,
There are many people watching and praying for you. Other churches in SGMs have gone before you in an attempt to realize reform but because the leadership of the church was resistant to it and more importantly, because the church did not embrace their responsibility and authority to be the Body of Christ, change never happened…..just a mass exodus.
CLC is in a much different situation. Your senior pastor has apparently driven a stake in the ground and is adamant, “There will be change”. However, without the support of the members of CLC his words will become impotent and of no affect. It is critical that those of you who see the problems, abuses, and broken governing structure rise up and let your voice be heard. It is important that somehow you gather a consensus regarding where you stand as a church and where you want to go. It is imperative that you begin to renew your minds regarding how an orthodox biblically based church is to govern itself and how it should practically function, especially during the season you are in. I can tell you from my recent experience of coming out of KWCC and getting involved with a new church, it is amazingly refreshing, empowering, and freeing to embrace our responsibility together as the Body of Christ and build something that is pleasing to God and healthy for His people.
I realize as I write these things that many of you do not have ears to hear or eyes to see what I’m saying. This is because you are holding fast to what you’ve been taught ever since you’ve been in SGM. For example, you’ve been taught that there is a hierarchal leadership structure in place that you must submit to. You’ve been taught that the church has no authority whatsoever. You’ve been taught to shun and ostracize others if they fail to line up with the leaders expectations. Much of this is subtle and this is what makes it difficult to see. However, I would implore you to inspect the fruit rather than the rhetoric in an effort to determine if what I’m saying to you is true.
I explain to people when they ask me about my experience in SGMs, “I consider myself to have been a deceived individual from 1983 until 2001. In other words, I believed something to be true that was, in the final analysis, false. This is what I mean by being deceived. I believe many of you are experiencing this presently. However, at the same time, scales are falling from eyes of the saints throughout CLC and SGM. I believe the scales have fallen from Josh Harris’s eyes and he is beginning to see and hear the heart of God and the cries of His people. It is important that you take seriously why he has made the decisions he has of late and support him according to you own conscience and conviction. So far, he has demonstrated himself to be courageous and a man of conviction…….God’s man, not SGM’s man. However, he will soon find out the power, majesty, authority, and spiritual weight the Body of Christ has, as members of CLC manifest themselves as the church……. for a just cause or not. So will the SGM board.
Let me say this regarding the SGM board. Like Josh, they only have power and authority to the extend the church gives them that power and authority. At this juncture, I believe the board is more akin to a “lame duck congress”, except they don’t realize it. They think they are still in control and calling the shots. This is unfortunate, for God appears to be tearing down what they have built. It would be better if they would simply cooperate with what God seems to be doing (correcting, rebuking…. not pruning). A good place to start would be repenting instead of explaining, side-stepping, procrastinating, blaming, and shaming….. among other things.
By the way, several of us at KWCC wrote to Dave Harvey after he gave a message at our church where he explained to us, if we didn’t like the current church government we could leave. He also implicated the brothers who had brought legitimate charges against the pastors, referring to what they had done as “tyranny of the aggrieved party”. We have asked him to return to KWCC and repent to the church but he has refused. He has no business being on the SGM board.
In closing, CLC you are up to bat. God has called you for such a time as this. Many throughout SGM are hoping and praying that you will not cave in and succumb to the continued unhealthy and callous fashion the leaders of SGM continue to insist on getting their way regarding the disposition of CJ and other matters related to the people of God. The bible and historical orthodox evangelical Christianity indicates, the SGM board has absolutely no authority over any member of CLC (including CJ) regarding the ultimate disposition of that church member (this reflects a papal form of government). On the contrary, this is the responsibility of members of CLC. The bible does not suggest that we are to bring the accused before boards and committees. In keeping with Matthew 18, the accused is to be brought before the one who has ultimate responsibility and authority to bring resolution to such things…… the church. We are praying for you. Your brother in Christ, Mole
Here’s a few questions you may want to ask at your next family meeting:
1. Does the church have any authority whatsoever? How does your answer square with SGM’s statement, “the church has no authority?” If yes, what would be some practical applications of that authority?
2. Are leaders subject to church discipline as found in Matthew 18:15-20? Why or why not?
3. How does the current hierarchal form of government in SGM explain Jesus’ admonition in Matthew 20:25-28 not to do such a thing.
4. Can you admit that the current form of government in SGM resembles more of a papacy or an episcopal form of government than any other form, and the term elder led is misleading in that most of evangelical Christianity understand elder led to also mean “informed by the congregation”?
Quotes
The congregation has real authority. It is also true that the Bible presents the local congregation as having the final say in matters of dispute, doctrine, discipline, and membership. The congregation exercises this authority for the maintenance of the Body’s health and for the accountability of the elders. — 9marks.org, Mark Dever
That, under Christ and his word, the final court of appeal in the local church in deciding matters of disagreement is the congregation itself. (This is implied, first, in the fact that the leaders are not to lead by coercion, but by persuasion and free consent [1 Peter 5:3]; second, in the fact that elders may be censured [1 Tim. 5:19]; and third, in the fact that in Matthew 18:15-20 the church is the final court of appeal in matters of discipline). — John Piper
Some of the worst havoc wrought to the Christian faith has been a direct result of unscriptural forms of church structure. Only a few centuries after the apostles’ death, for example, Christian churches began to assimilate both Roman and Jewish concepts of status, power, and priesthood. As a result, church government was clericalized and sacralized. Under Christ’s name an elaborately structured institution emerged that corrupted the simple, family structure of the apostolic churches, robbed God’s people of their lofty position and ministry in Christ, and exchanged Christ’s supremacy over His people for the supremacy of the institutional church — Alexander Strauch
What stands opposed to…virtue is tyrannical pride, when the pastor exempts himself from all subjection, and tyrannizes over the Church. It was for this that Ezekiel condemned the false prophets, that is, that they ruled cruelly and tyrannically (Ezekiel 34:4). Christ also condemned the Pharisees, because they laid intolerable burdens on the shoulders of the people which they would not touch, no, not with a finger (Matthew 23:4). This imperious rigour, then, which ungodly pastors exercise over the Church, cannot be corrected, except their authority be restrained, so that they may rule in such a way as to afford an example of a godly life. John Calvin
“The elder has authority; he is called to exercise a shepherd’s oversight. Christ the Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4) has called him to exercise a shepherd’s care. But the undershepherd is not a stand-in for the Lord. He presents the word of the Lord, not his own decree; he enforces the revealed will of the Lord, not his own wishes. For that reason, any undermining of the authority of Scripture turns church government into spiritual tyranny. If church governors add to or subtract from the word of God, they make themselves lords over the consciences of others.” — Ed Clowney
Paul is writing not only to the Galatian elders. He’s writing to the whole church. And he’s saying that the church is responsible to evaluate the teaching that comes from the pulpit. They are not to passively accept anything that comes out of the preacher’s mouth, but are to hold it up to the light of Christ and test it by His Word. And if the teaching fails the test, the whole church is responsible to quit listening to the teacher – even if that teacher is an apostle like Paul himself. — 9marks.org, Mark Dever
Kris:
I just wanted you and Guy to know that I am still smarting from Eric Simmons’ uncharitable judgment and besmirchment of my character with his bloggers-are-losers-who-hang-out-in-their-pajamas-all-day-and-still-live-in-their-mothers’-basements comments, because there is one profoundly serious and gross error he made that borders on scandalous sin:
My mother does not have a basement.
–pk
Kris,
Would you consider copying and pasting your comment number 4 Dave Harvey’s most recent post? I think it is spot on and really a lot of grief could have been prevented had they not been so quick to speak…
When we see stories on tv of a video tape of a policeman beating someone – we don’t know the whole story of what happend before and after the camera was turned off. But, we don’t deny the accusation being made. We see enough to have concern about what happened. So someone investigates and looks into it. There are so many stories here and on other blogs. Why do some people not even bother to investigate? Why do they just defend the authority figure? Why do they not even realize there might be a reason to be concerned? Even if one cop saved my life – I would still be concerned about a story of another cop beating someone unjustified? At SGM, all these stories should be reason for concern. We don’t all sit in our basements making up stuff. Then, one of their own big dogs – Brent comes along with evidence…and they still defend the authority figure instead of seeing there is a reason to be concerned. :koolaid
From Jack in the last thread:
“Let me just encourage anyone who is comfortable with it to use their real name in these comments. Personally, I never want to allow my self, intentionally or unintentionally, to hide behind the anonymity of the internet in what I say. I want anyone who knows me to be able to read what I say and know it was me. I want them to hold me accountable if anything is not true, is hypocritical, or is not said graciously. That being said, I understand that many people don’t like putting their real name on the internet and I respect that too. Just a thought.”
note the method of sin sniffing Jack is using here:
sentence 1: seems nice enough
sentences 2-4: arrogant, self promoting and insulting to bloggers here who have extremely good reason for anonymity.
sentences 5-6: back to nice and understanding.
The sin sniffing sandwich? The false niceness while elevating oneself as more pious?
Does not fit, Jack. You got the insult in by promoting yourself as above others because you use your real name. (if you do)
People commenting here have excellent reasons to use monikers, coming from a spiritually abusive system. Note: cultish system. Even the topic of the post where you commented gives reason.
They would be FOOLS to use their real names. It is not about them being accountable to YOU or anyone in SGM for their words here…they should be far beyond that. They know they are accountable to Christ. Not the false teachers at SGM. They are to be wise when dealing with wolves.
This is about wisdom and discernment. Sharing information about a very abusive system. They have things to fear. Your system has proved it.
You rubbed me the wrong way, buddy. I am going to stand up on the side of victims of authoritarian witch hunts using the arrogant system of sin sniffing.
Why you felt the need to add that PS after all that has been written here…from day one…is beyond me. You want names? What for?
You are still very much a kool aid drinker and have not seen the Light. Or you would not have said such a cruel thing.
Mole,
I can’t see how any of the current SGM Board members can remain. Can they be forgiven… YES! Are they above reproach. NO! There are other stories before yours Bob at KWCC that Dave Harvey and others completely ignored. It is time to repent and resign, and I am not saying this in a harsh way as I type. IMO… These men just need to find other employment.
“Good Thoughts” –
I was thinking I might expand my #4 into its own post eventually. But I’d like input from everyone here first.
So people – what other advice would you give Mr. Harvey? Please share.
PK –
Awesome to “see” you. Neither my mom nor Guy’s has a basement either, actually. :D
I agree with Mary (#9). Kris, would you post your comment on Dave’s post?
Would you be okay if I posted them or emailed them? I just think it’s exactly what they need to hear.
Kris,
Love the new topic, but I feel it necessary to “bring an observation”. :wink: (Sorry, just couldn’t resist!)
Wasn’t it underwear instead of pajamas?
For your new readers who may not be clued in, here’s what Eric Simmons said to intimidate anonymous bloggers several years ago:
“Most of these guys who are writing blogs are 24-year-old guys living in their mom’s basements, sitting there in their underwear! That’s what they’re doing!”
Travis Seitler took Simmons to task in this post: http://travis.webseitler.com/2008/03/sovereign-grace-ministries-church-or-cult-quotes-week.html
I really appreciate the levity given the seriousness of the previous post.
As a current member of an SGM church, I am encouraged by the public acknowledgement by DH that they screwed up. I found his admission sincere even if not comprehensive. Let’s hope this is the first of other positive steps.
Also I like the openness of the SGM blog – that “kid” Andrew Mahr is doing a fantastic job engaging difficult conversations even if he doesn’t have all the answers. I hope his example will show the higher ups that they’ve nothing to lose by courageously tackling challenging topics.
Oops, didn’t refresh before posting…
So, other advice to give Mr. Harvey? How about that he respond personally to the comments being posted on his blog, rather than having Andrew, who is not even a board memeber, do it for him. Having Andrew post does have advantages for DH, because Andrew obviously is not the head of SGM, and so can either not know the answer to some questions or just say he will pass information along without actually giving a response. He also becomes the neutral intermediary, speaking very graciously, while Dave gets to hide on the sidelines.
PK — I’m spewing coffee all over my mother’s basement!!
Kris and Guy – so sorry about the threats you have received! I know you know how to handle it correctly! That is just insane – people in normal churches do not do that. I didn’t like the threats I got from Dave Bendenelli when I left back in the early 90’s – will track me down and tell the pastor of any church I attend about me and my spirit of “rebellion”, that if I ever told anyone that they where a “cult” they would take legal action. He also said it was “slander and libel”. Well, SGM IS a CULT!!!! My response to Dave was “thank you for proving my point”
But, that is NOTHING compared to have the safety of you and your family threatened. I am with Guy and Andy from NC on how I would want to handle it…..
BTW – Andy the picketer – when do we start??? Now is as good of a time as any!
I almost considered heading down to my basement in my underwear and tee shirt to post this comment! LOL!!!!!
“Also I like the openness of the SGM blog – that “kid” Andrew Mahr is doing a fantastic job engaging difficult conversations even if he doesn’t have all the answers. I hope his example will show the higher ups that they’ve nothing to lose by courageously tackling challenging topics.
‘
I know it must seem like openness to you but it really isn’t. Poor Andrew has basically a few responses:
1. That was great input
2. Thanks for the information
3. The board is looking into that
He simply does not have the authority to say much else. And that is on purpose. he is the “press spokesman” who is to field the questions but really has no answers except the talking points.
But I can certainly see why this would look like transparency to an SGM member.
Hi Noel.
Regarding #30 last thread, I read your story some time ago and was absolutely shocked at how badly you were treated. It’s hard to wrap the mind around. I will sum up at the beginning that I wish your leadership team had given you better counsel and I’m glad the perpetrator was convicted of his crime. I don’t think you needed to be put through half what you went through and had your situation been handled better (by leadership), you wouldn’t have. What they did to you was indeed evil and made a bad situation that much worse. Yes, they do need to see what they did and change.
It occurred to me this morning that my comment from last night might be interpreted that a victim has an obligation to pursue this in the courts and to not do so would be wrong. It appears I have indeed had that effect on you and I’m sorry about that. I should have taken more time to craft my comment more carefully. To say a victim has an obligation to pursue this legally would be going too far on my part and is not what I want to convey. I want to say they have not the obligation, but the Biblically acceptable option of taking this to trial, if they feel it would be the wisest and best course.
What I really want to address is the idea, which I believe is false, that the victim has a Biblical obligation NOT to pursue justice when this kind of crime is committed against them*. I get the impression that, for the most part, what is happening is that the leaders are presenting this to the victims as though they do not have the right at all to pursue justice whether they want to or not. I would like victims to understand that they do have that right and no one can take that away or deny them that right and Scripture does not mandate against it.
Whether or not they feel it would do them or their families more harm than good to exercise that right is another question which each victim must address between themselves and the Lord and they should not be rebuked if they decide it would do more harm than good in their case.
As in your case, Noel, I can certainly understand that if taking it to the courts meant putting your 3 year old on the witness stand or through any other experience that would retraumatize her or you, that would be asking way too much of any parent or child. I don’t blame you in the least for taking the road you took. On the contrary, I have a great deal of respect for you, and have had since I read your story. I can’t imagine how confusing, painful, and difficult the whole thing must have been. I’m glad you are in much better circumstances now.
*It seems 1 Corinthians 6 is almost always brought into play here, for example. It’s like they think that God has somehow exempted Christians from the legal consequences of their sins (crimes, in this case) committed against other Christians by saying “handle these things in house.” I think that passage is speaking of small claims issues and not major violations of the law. Otherwise, the church would become a sanctuary for criminals where they can commit their crimes against believers with virtual impunity. I am sure that is not God’s intent!
Hi,
I posted this at SGMrefuge under ‘your story 2’ and thought I would introduce myself here as well.
I came across the SGM (survivor and refuge) blogs when things erupted at SGM earlier last week. Although I don’t agree with all the comments, your blogs quickly made me realize that I am not alone in discerning the cult-like environment within SGM. Let me also emphasize that the symptoms and problems described by many of you are widespread throughout SGM, not just CLC. I disagree with Dave Harvey on this point, there is some validity in ‘painting SGM pastors with the same broad brush’.
My brief story. I was a member of two SGM churches in the DC-MD-VA area for a total of 8 years. During my first visit to a caregroup they spent over 45 minutes praising the attributes of the pastor. When I question the cgl about this, I was pointed to 1 Tim 5:17 – you know, the “double honor” idea. The months turned into years and I witnessed nothing short of idol worship being given to the pastoral staff. It’s so easy to see that NOW, but I was so taken-in by their “observations” of my pride and sinful judgments. The papal hierarchy, manipulations and severe pressure to conform (“cult of personality”) were also rampant at both churches. The entire eight years I felt the Holy Spirit prodding me: something-is-wrong-here-but-I-can’t-put-my-finger-on-it. I confronted pastors at both churches on these issues – citing multiple examples and how they contradicted scripture. Both made it clear that it was inconceivable to think they weren’t 100% correct (okay, 98%…), and that the apostolic team didn’t interpret the passages that way (“this is just how we do things within SGM”).
It’s now been over a year since I pulled my family out of SGM. It was hard leaving friends, brothers and sisters. We found a church that points us to Christ, not just the Cross. I’ve noticed how many of you also commented on SGM’s focus on the act of the crucifixion, vs worshiping the [risen!!] person of Jesus Christ. So easy to see that NOW…still kicking myself (repenting) of not yielding to the “Still Quiet Voice” I knew pre-SGM. I’ve been reading with great interest the insights and commonality here. I have been hesitant to post anything, due to concerns of 1Tim5:19 – but then I realized tonight that we are speaking out against a denomination, and there are hundreds of witnesses. I wholeheartedly agree with Josh, that the Lord is disciplining those involved. I would counter the frustration expressed by many, though, who appear to want rapid results. There is amazing peace knowing that He is orchestrating events, and has perfect timing.
This (the sgmrefuge posting) is my first post ever in a blog, sorry if it came off too long or preachy. I look forward to reading more from all y’all.
:new
Since Kris closed the last thread I would appeal to those making attacks against Guy & Kris before you do any more threats etc. listen to Josh Harris’s past Sunday message a few times or more. You can find it on CLC’s website titled something like “father’s discipline.
Sadly you are doing what Josh Harris said not to do.
In Harris’s Sunday message Harris indicated that Mahaney still hasn’t seen all of his sin yet. It is quite apparent now that other SGM Board Members are in the same position. A number of the SGM Board members, especially Harvey, need to step down or recuse themselves as they say in legalese. New people need to be appointed to the board and especially men who aren’t on the SGM payroll who won’t be swayed from saying or doing the right thing if they speak up.
SGM Pastors and SGM Members need to push for this.
Brent,
You said: “C.J.’s longstanding patterns of serious sins have been the best kept secret in SGM for many years.” Clarifies MANY things for me. And at the same time, it makes me physically ill to hear. How many lives are affected in ways they don’t even know yet? (I do not dismiss all the wonderful things that happened at SG churches. God is above even CJ.)
And, you said: “Unfortunately, the new Board under Dave Harvey’s leadership, has condemned my action.” Also gives me very little hope that “the board” can remain and have any forward progression.
My last SG pastor would say all the time “Is the ship turning?”
Sidney
Open Message to SGM and Any and All Who Have Threatened Guy and Kris
Hello all,
I’ve commented here extensively and wanted to disappear feeling I’d said all there was to say, but I feel the need to comment on Kris’s and Guy’s last post.
I’ve posted extensively on the sexual abuse issues at SGM rather than the theological issues at hand or the Detwiler documents.
That’s because if these allegations,
http://sgmrefuge.com/2011/04/12/sovereign-grace-church-fairfax/
that are backed up by years of documented mediation efforts, visits to the police, etc. are true, CONFESSED (as in confessed to a pastor) SEXUAL PREDATORS ARE WALKING THE HALLS OF SGM CHURCHES TROLLING FOR VICTIMS AS WE SPEAK.
This issue far supercedes any other SGM issue, in my humble opinion.
I have sought the advice of several journalists, lawyers, and other secular leaders of influence who do not believe that Mat. 19 represents the final say on how molestation issues should be handled by clergy-people.
While universally horried, we’ve concluded that inundating this site or site’s like it with comments by professionals expressing the above opinions/making efforts to reach out to scared people may not really help the victims; it may just terrify people who have been harmed and threatened by SGM into going underground.
We believe it’s better to let have someone from SGM address these issues in a way that makes the victims feel safe even though it’s taking a while for such a person to appear.
However, if I become aware that anything untoward happens to Kris, Guy, or anyone else hosting blogs that certain members of SGM don’t like, please be assured that the secular calalry will be at the door of SGM’s headquarters within hours.
And I leave that with you.
@Matt So glad you’re here! :clap Your (#21) was so discerning! It just speaks to how much:
1. Contrary to the characterization of ‘bitter’/’angry’ commentators, SGM doesn’t seem to realize how much most members, former and present want to see SGM just do the right thing and are inclined to forgive them and celebrate the smaller victories and ‘transparencies’.
2. Poor Andrew is just doing his job well. He is a great customer service rep. in the sense of acknowledging concern and telling you how much he ‘understands’ your grievances. I think the real test will be how these member concerns are addressed (again?) and if SGM is really willing to acknowledge their own sins/offenses and pay for “real” counseling of children and families that have been severely damaged by their movement.
TW,
I didn’t see your request to post my remarks on the SGM website. I don’t have a problem with that. But those were just some off-the-top-of-my-head suggestions. I’m sure others have better ones they could add. But go ahead and share if you feel like it.
From John Maxwell’s FB page this morning: People don’t follow titles, they follow courage. -William Wells Brown
Not to say that we don’t follow Jesus – we MUST – but in this situation, will people follow the wishy-washy WashBOARD, or will they follow Josh?
Hey folks, I’m not sure how many of you read internetmonk.com , but they have a post up (last I checked it was the most current) that relates to the cult of personality issue and even mentions CJ by name. I know people have tried to discuss SGM there before and been shot down because it wasn’t relevant to the post, but this time it certainly seems to be…
Imonk is not a truly reformed blog, but it is a different audience than here and conversation there might prove interesting.
5yrs – You don’t have to tell me twice. Here is what I posted at the link you provided:
———–
Dave –
I am a former SG pastor. I am a former member of an SG church. I don’t have much of an axe to grind about myself, but I’ll tell you in a nutshell what you probably already know. My “case” was horribly mishandled by one of your former “apostles”. He chose to receive testimony about me, make conclusions, and take actions against me that defy every principle in the Scriptures and which are espoused by PeaceMakers for conflict resolution. He delivered to me an accusation of sin, made by leaders at the church (where I was still attending!). When I suggested that the Mt 18 protocol be followed, he agreed, then recanted when the local leaders decided that I hadn’t sinned after all. In the process I and my family were defamed not only in the church where we served but across SG. Gossip, Dave? You bet – repeated by your own. Unconfessed sin? Check your own house.
The main axe I do have to grind is the blatant ungodly way that you guys have dealt with documented cases of child abuse at Fairfax. Please give thanks that SGM and the enablers at Fairfax dealt with gentle souls who were crushed by your blatant disregard not only for man’s law but God’s law. Let me assure you that had the situation involved me or my family members, I would have sued first and then taken the case to the media. Fairfax would be closed and SGM would still be paying on the settlement.
Minor axes that I have have been documented well on the Survivors and Refuge websites. Anonymous complaints? Mostly. But that is what you, CJ, Steve, Mickey, Gene, Danny, Mark, Sam, Aron and a host of others have created – now faceless critics who have found a voice. You see, when you know who we were you ignored or abused us. You thought that when we left we would be silent, even as our reputations were damaged beyond repair by individual francises and SG corporate. Think again, Dave.
Waiting for real change,
Former SG Pastor
——–
I’m weary,
Former SG Pastor
Janna,
You bring it back to where it ought to be. The serious stuff.
Your comment is one reason why I am not impressed with Brent and his documents. You cannot convince me that Brent had no idea how molestation charges were handled in SGM circles. The sort of response we have seen over and over from leaders comes from the top and is passed down. It is part of the culture. The main reason for the response is image. It is not good for business if these things get out so contain it inhouse. And the victim is they key to this by teaching cheap grace for the perpetrator.
yet, Brent was all concerned with CJ’s pride and arrogance while they both (he and CJ) were leaders in a culture that dismissed victims of sexual molestation as part of the problem and not as a clue to how evil their system really is.
Even to the point of protecting some perverts while allowing the former wife of one to end up in poverty. This is the real mindset of SGM leadership. The base evil.
I do not care if CJ, Dave or Brent say “sorry” for what they taught these pastors and leaders when it comes to the sin sniffing and handling sexual molestation. For their vulgar treatment of victims. I have no way to discern if they repent or not or if they really mean it…this time.
Bottomline is that they are not qualified to be in ministry as a paid profession. They wanted to be able to treat your brothers and sisters who have been victimized by predators as crap. And it goes back to image and keeping the fake image alive in people’s mind. And they used our Lord to do it. (Here is your opportunity to forgive, they say. Nevermind the consequences for the pervert.)
What bothers me is that their first ‘sin’ reaction should have been to want to track down the pervert and give him a thrashing. That is the kind of sin I can easily forgive. Because I can relate to it. I cannnot relate to blowing off the victim with pious rebukes.
These men are wolves. They need to get out of ministry. Some of them should be in prison.
Bottomline: They want this to be about CJ’s pride instead of how they treated the victims of sexual perversion. Pride is a much more acceptable sin.
I just had a real sickening :idea: moment. SGM members are afraid to be talked about on the blog, even if they haven’t done anything embarrassingly sinful, and even if there is almost zero chance anyone would know who they are BECAUSE members actually FEAR retribution ( hmm, already a distrust that their leaders spy and gossip?) against their loved ones who are still or also in a system that might not approve of some aspect of their life.. I don’t know why I didn’t see the whole picture before until now regarding my personal SGM saga. Maybe because I hadn’t really read all the details about the SGM version of courtship rules until yesterday and I sure appreciate who linked it here! So, as I connect all the dots I make this hypothetical scenario, but correct me if I’m wrong: An SGM adult member dates instead of courts, not only that but dates a Christian outside of SGM. Not only that, but dates a non complementarian Christian.. This member not only has to worry about church discipline for self, but if this member’s parents are SGM leaders then this member ALSO has to worry about SGM’s discipline against them as well !?! . This member has to choose between what they think could be God’s will for their life partner choice and protecting his/her very beloved deserving of high honor good parents from ‘church discipline’ !?!?!
WHAT A HORRIBLE HEAVY BURDEN to place on a young adult! You Bloggers all knew this when I came here a few months ago asking for advice. No wonder the love and passion sensed in your warnings! I am serious and trembling, totally not feeling humorous at all as I move the bar very high on my cult-o-meter! I am seriously appealing to all current SGMers… STOP doing this to your children! It is NOT right. I was told by a well meaning blogger here a while back to just let it go, it’s not worth losing communication with my child over blogging.
But now I appeal to all the SGM parents who have lost communication with their children for the opposite reason, parents who have chosen the local SGM community over community with their children, parents who have discerning children, parents whose children have rejected God completely because they think SGM is God:
:word
Leaders and Parents: It’s time to face the music!
That cliche just came to my mind, so I looked it up and found a speculative origin to this famous quote. I thought it was fitting;
“It relates to the old UK practice of West Gallery singing. This was singing, literally from the west galleries of English churches, by the common peasantry who weren’t allowed to sit in the higher status parts of the church. The theory was that the nobility were obliged to listen to the vernacular songs of the parishioners, often with lyrics that were critical of the ways of the gentry.”. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/face-the-music.html
Kris and Guy,
Have you told Josh about these threats you recieved? I wonder if asking him to post something on his blog will help. If Josh says, I ask folks to keep discussion with our critics (SGMSurvivors and Refuge) civil and not make threats against their children, do you think SGMers (or the folks threatening you) would listen? I imagine if Dave Harvey posts something like this would go along way in proving that SGM is changing.
Matt and others:
Thanks for the kinds words of direct and indirect support for focusing on the “heavy stuff.” I agree that anyone in authority at SGM for a long length of time must have known something about the sexual abuse issues that SGM was shoving under the table.
However, we can’t change the past. Therefore I think our focus should be on protecting current and future victims rather than placing blame on specific leaders at this time.
For instance, someone needs to post the equivalent of Luther’s 95 theses on the door of that Fairfax, VA. church before they open for business tomorrow.
To the weary SGM minister:
I know you’re weary, but please reach out to any victims or persons of influence at SGM who could force SGM to address the molestation issues at Fairfax and other locations. I’ve tried, but the victims seem very cowed/brainwashed into believing they have no legal recourse for their cases because that’s the lie SGM has been feeding them for years. My opinion as a non-SGM outsider understandably carries little weight with them.
SGM will be sued and financially ruined eventually. I am as sure of that fact as I’m sure that night follows day. My concern is that acting now, rather than later, could prevent more atrocities from occuring.
Best to all. Pardon me if I don’t respond to comments very often but there is this “making a living” issue I have to deal with, and this SGM stuff is pretty distracting and distressing.
God Bless.
Janna
BEWARE! If you think the comments are getting through on SGM blog, you are wrong.
I have asked in 2 different threads a totally logical question about CJ’s salary/benefits while he’s on his “temporary leave of absence” and it has not been posted.
Also, I made a comment to Franz’s comments and it made it through. I went back a little while later and it’s gone.
What the heck? This isn’t transparency. This is EXACTLY what made me feel like I was crazy 3 years ago when we left. Dang! I’ve been healing well. Now I start to trust a little and want to give the benefit of the doubt. Uh. I have nothing good to say about that.
Josh…stay strong. Don’t give up! People of CLC…stay strong! Don’t give up! Put your thinking caps on and do NOT take them off! The rest of SGM churches…Quit following blindly!!!! (I am certain that some in all of the SGM churches have their thinking caps on…this is a general statement)
SGM…please stop disenfranchising God’s people.
Michelle, you seem very sweet and your thought is nice but in some ways that to me is exactly the problem. The bible would speak clearly that no one should be making threats against Kris and Guy…so if they stop just because their pastors tell them to – isn’t that the very problem. For me it wouldn’t show SGM is changing but just the opposite – people are too dependent on their leadership.
I agree with those who are dismayed by how SGM has handled sex abuse cases. It’s a huge issue, one that needs to be addressed, especially where there may be present-day knowledge of known molesters being harbored, unpunished and untreated, in congregations.
We’ve already seen that the SGM system of accountability has holes. Why trust that same system to take care of perverts? That’s insane.
I would say, though, that this is one area where each individual case should be addressed directly with the pastors who made the mistakes (or are currently providing safe haven for pedophiles, if such a thing is still happening). We can continue to connect the dots and discuss the specific teachings that lead to better treatment for perps than for victims. But SGM has broader and deeper issues that are more widespread (though – and please hear me – NOT more important).
I don’t know if this makes sense, but I always feel that when child abuse is mentioned, the conversation gets a little hysterical, as is natural given the horrible topic and the very real cases that were mishandled. But I don’t feel like generally speaking this is happening at every single SGM church all around the country. I think many pastors probably eagerly follow reporting laws (or at least I hope they do).
Maybe that ought to be a specific item to address with Dave Harvey: SGM as a corporation needs to issue corporate-wide guidelines for mandatory reporting of sex abuse, no matter what the individual state requirements might be.
“The commonest defense of the Nazi war criminals was that they were merely following orders. But the court held them responsible all the same….it is part of the glory of being human that we are held responsible for our actions.” Stott. Anything, any SGM pastor, care group leader, or member has done just because they were told – when there was a check in their spirit about it – they were wrong. Anything you are covering up for CJ or any other leader in the name of loyalty – you are wrong. Your loyalty is to Christ. And today, if you are protecting CJ when you know anything that is amiss – you are wrong. Part of your glory in being human is that you are held responsible for your actions – no way around it.
PDI/SGM Senior Pastor and Songwriter Caves to Leaders in Early 1990’s
I don’t know where you stand doctrinally, but why all the fuss? Brent and CJ and all the other SGM leaders and their underlings should not be upset about any of the things that are going on at this time since God foreordained it from all eternity. Right? Over and over again their own theology mocks them.
My wife and I were part of a PDI/SGM church for over 10 years. I had been an assistant homegroup leader. When the radical change in doctrine occurred I strongly spoke out against it. At that time hardly anyone, if anyone, in our local congregation agreed with TULIP. But they eventually became heavily indoctrinated, (sort of the way the JW’s do), as had our pastor previous to that. At one point, before my pastor gave in, during the second of the two three-hour knock down face to face meetings, I asked him how long he had been a Christian. It was like 25 years. I asked him if during that time he read God’s Word regularly. The answer was yes. Then I asked him if he read it prayerfully during that time. Again the answer was yes. Then I asked him when he came to believe in TULIP. He knew at that point he was just busted and uncomfortably admitted that it had been about two years earlier when CJ started propagating and later pushing it on people. My pastor agreed to read any book of my choice which took an opposing view to Calvinism. I asked him to read Robert Shank’s “Elect in the Son”. He read it and about three weeks later came up to me before a church service he called me aside and very quietly and almost secretively told me that he completely agreed with Robert Shank’s position.
Now he had to break the news to Brent or Dave Harvey or whoever was “Over” us at that time. They were panicked as he was one of their main songwriters. He had actually discussed pulling some of his songs that had a Calvinistic bent to them. He was asked to write a position paper and he asked me to help. I did, but it was very lengthy. So he wrote his own, which was very pointed and well written. He then submitted it to the PDI leadership. Also during that time he had even seriously talked with me about leaving PDI, and we discussed whether or not he should turn the church building over to them. After submitting his paper he was asked to “dialogue” with them on the subject. When I asked him how the supposed dialogue was going he said that they gave him several books to read and discuss, like Anthony Hoekema’s “Saved by Grace”. Then CJ even invited him to speak at CLC, which of course was PDI’s mothership. I very much doubt if he would have ever smelled CLC’s pulpit had they not been going all out to dissuade him from what he actually believed. It was either conform, conform, conform, or out, out, out.
Towards the end of our time at that church I continued to address many of the following things listed below, but our pastor refused to hear. I had been saying and have continued to say that:
– PDI/SGM leaders and local pastors are elitists who think they have a corner on the truth; they are very proud and arrogant; they view themselves as the enlightened ones, while viewing all other Christians and their church affiliations as the unenlightened; in other words, those who do not agree with their theology are looked down on as second-class Christians and denominations; they are manipulative and controlling; for most of the time they act like a bunch of clones; and that they are absolutely obsessed with TULIP.
Over the years there has been lots of hypocrisy and a clear double standard regarding how they treat certain people and the way they treat certain other people. I’ve always likened SGM to the Holy Roman Catholic Church. At the very top you have the infallible Pope CJ. Then the cardinals, arch-bishops, bishops, priests, etc.
In his 7/10/11 Sunday evening message at CLC it was refreshing to hear Josh Harris finally admit to several of the same things. In Brent’s “documents” I found the part about CJ blackmailing Larry, Doris, and Justin sickening and reprehensible. Isn’t it interesting how even though CJ is supposedly so close and in tune with God, it took him some 13 years to acknowledge his sins of pride, hypocrisy, manipulation and mistreatment of others; and now finally he has gotten around to making things right with Larry. It so obvious, as is evidenced in Brent’s documents what an idol Reformed theology is within SGM. Case in point, within these documents, CJ stated that it would have been OK and that he wouldn’t blackmail the Tomczak family, if Larry left the movement, but did not say that it was over “doctrinal” differences. It has become clear that CJ is not the most humble person on the face of the earth. As a movement they need to realize their facade of humility is nothing more than false humility, which of course is just another form of pride. It is apparent that CJ has always craved adulation and the leaders of PDI/SGM have always fallen over each other when introducing each other. And if they happen to be introducing one of their gods like RC Sproul it is downright scary.
As a post script I want to state that before CJ changed in the early 1990’s, he was my very most favorite Christian teacher. In my cassette/CD library I have by far more of CJ’s messages than anyone else. Unfortunately, his desire for prestige, power, and recognition made him the lesser man that he is today.
“Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding” (2 Cor 10:12).
. .
Dave Harvey—are you also still without understanding? The tenor of your message indicates that you are still missing the mark. You write, “that we not rush to judgement but rather think about [C. J.] the way we would want to be evaluated if someone came forward against us”.
. .
Note: there’s a bit of ambiguity in your use of the personal pronoun “we” followed by the word “if”. Now, if you have, indeed, included yourself in this (first person, plural) pronoun, then it seems you have failed to appreciate the reality that many have, most certainly, come “forward against” YOU! Now, Dave, is this a tactic of misdirection on your part, or just rank ignorance?
. .
It’s not just C. J. who is responsible for this crisis, but every single one of you who have assumed an apostolic mantle of authority and perpetuated a perverse ethos of control and domination… every single SGM one of you who have engendered a graceless and sick culture of sin-snuffing.
. .
[consider the NT word krisis, how it relates to the ideas of “judgment”, “decision”, “separation”, “crisis”.]
Does anyone know how much the SGM churches give to SGM?
Sidney – I see a question regarding CJs salary benefits which was answered by Andrew. Here is his response:
“I did post it with an answer—not sure what error occurred. The answer is that yes, he is still on salary with SGM. The LOA is a leave from his leadership positions, not from employment, and the board is still directing him as to how to spend his time. “
Kris,
While I’m not sure I agree that people have become hysterical about the sexual abuse issues, I understand the general point you’re making; that’s why I resolved to disappear yesterday. For the most part, what can be said about the sex abuse issues has been said and there’s no point in beating the proverbial dead horse. It’s up to the victims to act at this point.
I posted today because I think things will heat for you and Guy when the s— really hits the fan, and I wanted to make sure that SGM folks know that taking you guys out of the equation won’t solve their problems.
But please allow me to address a couple of your points. Based on what I’ve read to date: “counseling” confessed sexual predators, rather than reporting them to secular authorities or even keeping them off church property, is SGM’s MO, not a deviation from their normal system of following secular sex abuse reporting laws/norms. For instance, the SGM survivors site details an incident in which a child was molested/harassed more than once because the pastors at the Fairfax church wouldn’t discipline or limit church access to a confessed predator. I think that part of the reason people aren’t more hysterical is that what I just wrote is so hard to believe…but it’s all documented.
Also, to my knowledge, SGM has not addressed the abuse issues leveled against them at any point and will not post comments about sexual abuse on their blog. Josh Harris’s blog is also closed to questions about how he plans to handle sexual abuse allegations.
Hence I don’t think there’s a way to raise the issue with Dave Harvey or anyone else at SGM, Inc.; their heads are in the ground (to put it nicely) on this one.
Sidney:
When I said I was semi-joking about SGM trying to figure me out that’s because I haven’t been able to post comments on Josh Harris’s blog or the SGM blog, either. A simple message saying, “Josh. I’m praying for you” didn’t even get through. I think they know who “Janna” and “Sidney” are, and we’re persona non grata no matter what we say.
Best to all – Janna
Jim has just posted some comments from Brent: http://sgmrefuge.com/2011/07/16/matt-18-and-the-documents/
I’m cross-posting my response here:
Brent has called Mahaney’s sins “serious”, and the first sin in all the lists of Mahaney’s sins has consistently been “pride.” If pride was the original sin of satan against God, and can be understood as the fount from which all other sins flow, I wonder why Brent didn’t call on Mahaney to step down a long time ago. “Pride” is, after all, the sin Mahaney used to de-gift and de-frock many other SGM leaders.
I guess it all comes down to being a hireling in a business venture: to challenge Mahaney – to call for him to step down – equaled losing one’s job. (As Brent himself learned, even without actually calling for him to step down.)
Therefore, he was never challenged, despite the “serious” nature of his sins. Thus, his “serious” unrepented-of sin was tainting everything he did in the organization, as long as SGM dilly-dallied and sat on their hands.
Even now, Dave and friends (except Josh!) find so little wrong with Mahaney that they consider him fit to preach the “gospel.” (Which makes sense, if the “gospel” for these leaders consists primarily of pointing-out sin in another person’s life, but not your own.)
When their income stops, Dave and his friends will pay attention. It’s within the power of SGM members to force a quick resolution to this entire matter: withhold your tithes and don’t buy SGM products.
When hundreds of local-church pastors and staffers receive no paychecks, they will pressure SGM to resolve matters. They may even demand, en masse, that the entire SGM leadership resign.
Jewel,
That was the 3rd time I asked it. :) I’m glad he finally decided it was worthy of a response.
Sid
“New people need to be appointed to the board and especially men who aren’t on the SGM payroll”
So why isn’t this something alarming to all SGMers. And are there no MD laws against nonprofits having staff as board members? And they should be from all walks of life, not just pastors.
‘However, we can’t change the past. Therefore I think our focus should be on protecting current and future victims rather than placing blame on specific leaders at this time.,
Janna/Kris,
Sorry to be pedantic but when you say we cannot change the past, you are ignoring how our system was set up to operate. All criminal cases were ‘in the past’. We do go into the past (statutes of limitations) to punish such things because they are crimes. In some states it is even against the law for a pastor to not report known sexual molestation of a minor. Even if told in confidence.
When a woman is beat up by her husband, he is up against the state. Not the woman. Did you know that? That is just one example of how the state views such crimes.
Our system does not say to the victim, we are only going to try and protect future victims and we are hoping our training makes people in leadership more compassionate.
You want to stop it from happening in the future? Make it so expensive they would never be tempted to respond so stupidly to victims again. Not only that, but other pastors and groups pay attention to large PERSONAL fines imposed on their own kind .
Not hysterical, Kris. Just realistic and going by the law of the land. We send a message to little kids by how the adults handle such things: Don’t say anything, it is too embarassing and you are marked for life. not only that, but you are not that important.
Not only that, but I want the pervert off the streets and in jail. He can join Prison Fellowship and we can minister to him there.
Ok, rant over.
Longingforheaven #27 – “Poor Andrew is just doing his job well. He is a great customer service rep”
Please, let’s pray for Andrew, but not pity him for doing what earns him a paycheck.
If Andrew witnesses sinful obstinance, lying, covering-up, etc., on the part of Dave and other SGM leaders, Andrew should confront them and/or consider getting himself another job. He’s just as replaceable as everyone else they’ve kicked out.
This isn’t going to be the end of this I fear. I experienced from New Covenant when PDI took over many churches and then promptly replaced the leadership. Then I’ve watched as those I knew experienced the Reformed life at SGM. All the time also checking in on Larry Tomczak’s website… And how he was fairings. It wasn’t pleasant. And now as one that has studied church history and current trends in seminary and elsewhere – get ready for the next survivor site. Remember it was CJ that went and taught Mark Driscoll about humility. Mars Hill is everything the discipleship movement in the 80s and 90s and SGM has come to be understood in the last 2 decades. A lot of great work – but the means of replacing the 5-fold ministry with pastors (only), and allowing those pastors to succeed based on their entrepreneurial skills… The church is in trouble. The denominations are starting to look like the healthy places to worship and relate.