Next Letter To Covenant Life Members – “C.J. Mahaney Now Attends Non-SGM Church”
August 11, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Today, members of Covenant Life Church received this email from Josh:
Dear Members of Covenant Life,
Yesterday in the e-mail regarding Mike Bradshaw’s and Brian Chesemore’s resignations, we announced that we would have a members meeting this Saturday. We apologize for any inconvenience, but we’ve decided to change the date of this meeting to next Wednesday, August 17, from 7-9 p.m. in the Auditorium.
We hope this will allow more people to participate. It also gives me more time to prepare; this Saturday was going to be a stretch, as I need to prepare the sermon for Sunday morning. We had previously planned on having Thabiti Anyabwile preach to us. Thank you for your understanding and patience with this change. Here are some of the bigger items we plan to address at the Members Meeting on Wednesday.
1. Ad Hoc Committees: We will give an update on the selection of Ad Hoc Committee Members. Reminder: the deadline for making nominations is August 13. We plan to select 20 people from the names the congregation nominated and present this list to the congregation to affirm.
2. Caring for Victims of Sexual Abuse: We’ll communicate how we’re seeking to reach out to people on the blogs who have shared heartbreaking stories of sexual abuse and also make you aware of our policies and practices.
3. Mike’s and Brian’s Resignations: We’ll seek to answer some common questions to this current situation.
4. C.J. Mahaney Attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church During Leave of Absence: This is a big one and I wanted to share it with you here and talk about it more at the Members Meeting. C.J. and the Sovereign Grace Board have let us know that they think it is best for C.J. and Carolyn to attend Capitol Hill Baptist Church during his leave of absence. In June, when C.J. realized that a leave might be necessary, he began pursuing Mark Dever (pastor of CHBC) about pastoral care and counsel for both himself and Carolyn. He thinks that in addition to continuing the care he is receiving from Mark, it would serve him and his family to worship with Mark’s church during this time. We’re torn over this decision. We understand C.J. wanting to attend where he feels he can best be cared for and best serve his family, but we also have reasons why we think it would be good for him to stay at Covenant Life. C.J. has also expressed concerns and points of disagreement with how we have been leading during this season. He’s communicated a desire to work through these issues with us in the coming months with the help of mediators from Ambassadors of Reconciliation. We are all eager to do this and have told C.J. we’re ready to meet as soon as he’s ready.
5. Improving Our Communication: We’re seeing that we need to grow in effective communication with the church and would like to share ideas and invite your input.
We look forward to being with you next Wednesday. Let’s continue to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). And please keep your pastors in your prayers. We are weak and fallible but filled with hope in God.
On Behalf of the Pastors,
Joshua
I’m wondering about something.
Maybe there’s someone out there reading this who has been a member of Capitol Hill Baptist and who would have a better handle on this than I do. But it seems to me that SGM has some very unique and very specific ideas about what “pastoral care” looks like.
In fact, SGM’s concept of “pastoral care” is something I’d say sets SGM apart from churches in “normal” Christianity.
In normal Christianity, the role of pastor is just not infused with so much weight, so much authority, and so much importance in a believer’s life. Yes, if you go to a “normal” church, you will eventually come to know and have some type of relationship with your pastor. But it typically will be more of a casual partnership of equals, and on an “as-needed” basis – which usually means when you have some sort of serious need. In “normal” churches, people typically don’t see their pastor as some sort of conglomeration of authoritative guru and father figure. In “normal” churches, people typically don’t involve their pastors in the daily business of their lives. “Normal” pastors would think it odd if a church member came to them to seek out their input on everyday life decisions like whether or not to move to a different city. “Normal” pastors would NEVER think it was their place to weigh in on a member’s use of psychiatric drugs.
In “normal” churches, you go to your pastor if you have a really serious and pressing spiritual need. But otherwise, your pastor is not all up in your business, confronting you on your personal sins with some weird assumption that God has given him special sin-sniffing insights into what’s going on in your heart.
So…having said all that…
What I’m thinking is that if Capitol Hill Baptist is indeed a “normal” church, it’s highly likely that CJ and Carolyn won’t be receiving anything that even remotely resembles what SGMers think of when they hear the phrase “pastoral care.” CJ will be in their midst as a celebrity and an equal. It’s doubtful that he’ll be meeting with Mark Dever for deep and probing conversations about his sins. Mark Dever is a busy and important guy with a whole famous ministry of his own. But even if he DOES set aside some time for CJ, it’s still highly unlikely that he’ll be doing things the SGM way.
Also, what does it say about CLC, if CJ himself is not confident that he can “receive the best pastoral care” at the church that he himself founded and shaped and ran for decades?
This whole thing is very strange. It’s like someone custom-builds a special motorcycle that is unlike any other motorcycle out there. He then forms a whole company of people who ride his motorcycles. He spends years setting up special training for guys who want to learn how to be mechanics who work on these special motorcycles.
But then when his own motorcycle poops out, he takes it down the street to the Cadillac dealership…because he can get better service there?
Bizarre.
Thank you I Was Deleted for the Nepotism Scorecard:
Brian Chesemore (former CLC Pastor) is married to C.J.’s oldest daughter, Kristen
Mike Bradshaw (former CLC Pastor) is married to C.J.’s youngest daughter, Janelle
Steve Whitacre (current Pastor at Sov. Grace Church in Fairfax, Va., so far) is married to C.J.’s 2nd oldest daughter, Nicole
Grant Layman (CLC’s Executive Pastor) is brother to C.J.’s wife, Carolyn
Gary Riccuci (Sov. Grace Min. staff, former CLC Pastor) is married to C.J.’s sister, Betsy
It seems to me that the SILs may be the first of many to leave. Gary Ricucci has some serious explaining to do about the handling of ExCLCer’s story. The pressure for him will be pretty harsh although it was a looong time ago.
Grant Layman as far as I know has no personal clouds to be pointed at. The Fairfax church may just need a general housecleaning due to the abuse stories posted here and elsewhere.
When ministry is your livelihood making a decision like the 2 SILs had to be difficult. Brent has been out for a couple of years and killed his savings. (Although I’m still wondering why this experienced pastor has had no ministry opportunities even as an assistant or youth pastor somewhere.)
These 2 guys quit. They were not de-gifted and fired. They must have some serious savings to fall back on. Maybe discussions with pop-in-law said: Quit, I got your back on being unemployed for a year or so. How much bank does CJ have to be able to support 2 extra families with kids and mortgages once their savings runs out. The wives don’t work outside the home.
BTW… Is this leaving well? or well off?
@Breeezey
Nicole is actually the oldest daughter; married to Steve.
Kristen is the middle daughter; married to Brian
Janelle is the youngest; married to Mike.
Breeezy, from what I understand, there may be no mortgages to worry about.
I believe that CJ & Carolyn gave one of their daughters a house free and clear. This was in Montgomery County, one of the wealthiest counties in the nation.
Then CJ & Carolyn bought themselves a house in the same county. For cash. No mortgage there, either.
And finally, just the other day someone mentioned that the other daughter and her husband live with CJ Mahaney. However, no one has confirmed this, so I do not know of this for sure.
But if these are correct- no mortgage for anyone to worry about.
Kris,
EXCELLENT post! Exactly!
It brings to mind an old Scattergories commercial that used to air in which the guy who actually owns the game is pushing the other players to accept “cleanliness” as a disease. He makes it clear that it’s his game and if they don’t accept his answer, he is taking his game elsewhere. He comes across as a childish person forcing the other players to go by his rules.
Yep.
Kris-about capitol hill baptist-mark fever is an authoritative guru type with a following but not to the extent that cj is. Capitol hill baptist is known to have some similar control, authoritarian, absence of grace issues but again not to the extent of clc/sgm. Perhaps mark fever has been sympathetic and ch feels safe there. Sad the number of people that have faced the church discipine hot spot at clc under cj and he leaves when the lights get hot.
Sorry, autocorrect keeps respelling my words for me. I hope my meaning isn’t lost. Mark fever–sheesh. For fun you all should go to the “d**n you, auotcorrect” website for some funny smartphone transliterations.
Is Capitol Hill Baptist the same church that NLR used to go to?
I’m beginning to think that “Animal Farm” (ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.) was required reading at the Pastors College, but they must have forgotten to tell them that it was meant as a cautionary tale.
This is probably one of the more frustrating aspects of this whole affair, because it leaves so many questions unanswered. Sure, maybe there are legitimate reasons for the transition, but it’s hard to see them, and no one seems to be talking. To an outsider it looks very suspicious.
@Stunned (#5) – CJ and Carolyn appear to live with the Bradshaws. This link has the most recent purchase data (public record), which shows them purchasing the house together. Of course, it’s quite possible that the Mahaney’s simply co-signed on the mortgage, but the Mahaney’s sold another home at about the same time, presumably where they were living before. The price on this property is high, but not unreasonably so given that two families are living there.
I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that there are no mortgages. My Internet-fu isn’t good enough to bring up lending records, in fact I doubt that information is even public. Care to elaborate on where you’re getting that information?
@Kris: concerning the kind of pastoral care Capitol Hill Baptist might offer…
Assuming your assumptions of the type of care are accurate, I think most of us here would agree that is a preferable style of care to what SGM provides. Which by extension would be a good thing for CJ and his family to benefit from, both for the exposure to the kind of care, and possible direct benefits.
Also, I cannot imagine what it would be like to be in CJ’s position and go back to CLC. Maybe if he had officially stepped down, and was a “regular” person in the church it could work, but right now it would seem to me likely to be like a circus, with the spotlight shining so intensely on CJ, and all the emotions and doubts people in the church have. Maybe my imagination is too limited, but I have trouble imagining that situation working well, or for it not to be more distraction than benefit on Sundays.
Now all that said, to accept all that as good, one has to turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy of CJ attending a different church, receiving a different style of pastoral care than what he has advocated and built into SGM. Maybe it is just an tough dilemma, with no great choices, as long as SGM chooses a slow process of evaluation to work through the mess rather than making what they would see as a hasty decision.
All that to say, I do not disagree with your commentary, it is a strange situation. But I have a hard time criticizing the decision to attend a different church either, as I can’t imagine the alternative working well, at least considering the current direction SGM (and CJ probably by extension) have chosen.
Breeezey said:
haha. well said.
Grief –
I can criticize CJ’s decision. Don’t forget; this is the guy who “wrote” the book on humility. CJ has turned his back on the dearest, happiest place on earth. How is CJ making his pastors’ job easier? How is he bringing joy to his pastors? Same questions for his sils.
CJ has turned his back on CLC and his pastors there. He has turned his back on CLCers who supported his kingdom for decades. He has turned his back on ~ 100 SG churches and hundreds of SG pastors. He has thrown DHarv and the board under the bus.
Breezy’s question is right on – is this leaving well?
This guy mocks much of what he promoted for years. Throw the bum out.
Hasta la vista, Baldy,
Former SG Pastor
“He has thrown DHarv and the board under the bus.” How so?
@griefofwisdom “Which by extension would be a good thing for CJ and his family to benefit from, both for the exposure to the kind of care, and possible direct benefits.”
I agree with you griefofwisdom that it could be a good thing… if there is change afoot, let CLC do (I pray) its metamorphisis apart from the pressure of CJ and let CJ experience something different from CHB.
@ Kris – Good bike analogy! :D I have to laugh… CJ is avoiding his own system of correction because he thinks the leaders are prejudice against him? (think SILs departure) How many ex-pastors have felt this with no CHB recourse! :spin
Matt 18 – lot of discussion about this verse… if it was carried out by his home church the whole scenario for CJ would be different, wouldn’t it be? Instead we got the the extra-biblical panel!
Wowzers –
A quick response before I catch the morning train …
According to the corp website, SG leaders attend an SG church. How does the exception for CJ help the board?
Harvey writes pie-in-the-sky blog pieces while CJ and sons abandon ship. How does this reflect on the board?
The sils quit on the eve of WG11, an SG event. How does this reflect on the board (and BobK)?
JPurs has 2 dozen lads coming to the PC this fall. Read the website about the PC and see how integrated the PC is with CLC. What are the implications for the PC (and the SG board) from CJ and sils actions?
CJ has used the board just like he used SGM and CLC – for his own personal benefit.
Harvey has some ‘splainin’ to do,
Former SG Pastor
What a hypocrite! What a coward! What absolute proof that he’s never repented and still the same old “spirit of Jezebel” CJ.
Oh. My. Goodness. FSGP #13 So well said! Thank you! :goodpost
Thoughts on Care of Pastors – just a random thought about pastors needing care outside of their local pastoral staff. Though the pastoral staff is to care for each other there is a problem. All are getting paid… you can’t get away from the fact that they are paid and this is their job. Getting evaluated as a pastor and supported and corrected as a member of a pastoral staff is normative. But pastors need someone outside their “church” (aka job) sphere to share with and be cared for to a degree. They need to be able to pour out their hearts or be prayed with or encouraged by someone who understands what it is like to be a shepherd of the flock (in the best meaning of the term)and what those unique pressures are but who is not part of the pastoral team or intimately involved in the particular movement or denominational governance. A confidant, an encourager, a good listener and someone that ideas and emotions can be bounced off of. Pastors I believe need this.
That’s why I fully understand CJ going to Mark Dever for support and care. Even though it goes against everything he has taught and enforced on others.
As a member of a different SGM church, I appreciate this from Josh Harris, esp. #1. He’s realizing there is a lot to deal with and he is actually dealing with it instead of telling people they are “unsubmissive” or “not adequately suspecting their own hearts” because they are asking these questions. He’s actually taking steps to more congregational involvement. That can only be good.
As for CJ, if he has truly moved away from charismatic theology, I do not know what would restrain him from coming under Dever and eventually planting a reformed baptist church or some such… CHBC has planted at least two churches in the DC metro area that I know of. Although there are many good things about Dever’s church, there are also a few concerning things as well (I know more than a few members and former members there). Dever is extremely intelligent and God-fearing but that doesn’t mean I would be confident that he would be giving CJ the kind of pastoral care he needs right now (let alone what CJ would have recommended for others).
As for pastoral care as a category, Kris, I’m not sure I’m with you in your comment above. While perhaps the dynamic you describe is true in many non-denominational churches and many mainlines with regard to pastor / congregant relationships, it is far from universally true. Many streams of Christianity take the pastor / congregant relationship much more seriously than is the norm in western non-denoms today. For the clergy member to be seen as a spiritual director / discipler / counselor is not at all unusual. The wise clergy member in this role does not try to dictate decisions but would help the congregant to see his or her heart more clearly by asking probing questions, assigning reading, etc. I know and respect many people outside of my stream of Christianity and know the value that can be found in this. It’s not all controlling or manipulative for a pastor to have a closer spiritual mentoring type of relationship with a congregant – particularly one who may be going through a season of spiritual discipline, which could be the case w/ CJ Mahaney.
FSPG #13 – I agree with Notgoingback – Nice summation! Great questions! :clap
We’ll stay tuned to what now is looking like (I’m sorry to say) the SGM circus! :spin
Sorry to go off topic, but I just now read exCLCer’s story.
I want to apologize for how my church and my pastors treated your family during that time. We are all guilty.
I knew your mom and remember all of your little matching dresses and French braids. You were a beautiful family and wonderful kids.
I didn’t know how your mom came to be single, but I remember the profound poverty she endured. Yet, during that time she formed an advocacy group to help others of us in financial crisis find medical care and food.
I remember when social services got involved and church families took many of you into their homes to avoid foster care. I felt like you were OUR family and it was our job to protect you. When I heard you all had eventually been sent to foster care, I sat on the floor in the hall outside of children’s ministry and wept.
I prayed for you kids for many years.
When your stepdad resurfaced, I was hopeful that you would be returned to him so that you could grow up in the church…even though I had heard something inappropriate had occurred. Looking back, I can’t believe I thought it was more important for you to be at CLC, than to be protected from a child molestor.
I am so sorry for how my church failed to protect and care for you.
Please know that God didn’t do this to you and he is taking a stand for you and others like you now. What happened to you was wrong and we are all guilty.
Thanks FSGP. That helps me see the point better.
Stunned, Mike and Janelle and their children live with Cj, Carolyn and their son who is 18. Consider it verified.
Yes, NLR used to be a member at CHBC. I think that Josh is right in believing and thinking that CJ should remain at CLC. CJ is running away like a coward and he’s running to his buddy, Mark.
SGM is trying to do everything they can to make this situation look better, especially by bringing in Ken Sande one Sunday and then Thabiti Anyabwile the next. I know Thabiti, overall, he’s a good guy. But I’m not confident that this is all good for CLC and it depends on the topic of his sermon. Hopefully, it won’t be something that “chastises” the church regarding leadership, gossip, slander or anything else. I will be VERY disappointed in him if he teaches on any of those subjects.
I have said before, and I”ll say again: many of you have read about my experience on this blog about CHBC. CHBC is a congregational church where the church has the authority to hire and fire leadership by voting of the membership. As far as the search committee to fill those positions, I’m not sure who participates in that. But I do know that as members, we voted on elders and other offices in the church. THAT is one great thing that Mark can teach CJ–and that is a congregational form of polity. I’m sure there are many poeple who might disagree with that rendering of the NT church, but IMHO, and while I am not sure it’s an inspired interpretation–it appears to be correct.
I find it completely unfair to the many abused and hurt by CJ that he gets to run to another church like a tyrant hiding from his own guillontine. The very system he created and pounded on others is the same one he is running from now that the search party is out to crucify him. He and Carolyn don’t deserve the “refuge” they will get at CHBC. And I can bet you that many of those members also have the same defnitions and views when it comes to what is gossip and slander, adn so they will not bother to read these sites or any others like it with pure objectivity. CJ adn Carolyn will be safe there. There may be a few dissenters, but it will be VERY few.
I had run into some ex-SGMers at some time or antoher during my time there. I dont know why they left CLC or another SGM church, but if it was for pastoral abuse and issues with abuse and authoritarianism in that church, then I feel sorry for them. Because their abuser has now found refuge where they have. How ridiculous and disturbing is that.
While I agree that CHBC is in no way as bad as any SGM church, here are the things, in a neat little list that are quite similar. Do you think this is good for CJ? Well, you decide.
1. Authoritarian controlling paternalistic
2. Huge sin-sniffing.
3. Focus on the cross–not the resurrection.
4. An unhealthy focus on sin and depravity.
5. Heavy bend towards neo-Calvanism and Puritanism.
6. Male dominated.
7. Cultish culture
8. Tons of loaded language
9. High demand and controlling. The church and serving the congregation becomes your life.
10. Commune type mentality and desired living–self reliant and self-sufficient system without much need for outsiders.
11. Idolizes marriage and family beyond reason.
12. Singles struggle very hard. Lack of real ministry and bearing their burdens.
13. Practices and believes in courtship culture very strongly.
14. Strong connections to SBC, SBTS, T4G, CBMW, Gospel Coalition and SGM.
15. Overly submissive women. Homogenous culture.
16. Predominately white/caucasian congregation and culture.
17. Unhealthy focus on discipling men. Neglect towards women, especially single women.
18. Preaches complementarianism to the core. Women cannot teach Sunday school where men are younger men are present.
19. Teaches Eternal Subordination of the Son.
20. Quenches authentic moves of the Spirit. Holy Spirit is hardly ever mentioned.
21. Strong on church discipline.
22. Tattletale and squeeling culture. You know “best care for”, “best serve”.
…and I’m sure I could come up with more had I the time. Let me give the disclaimer that I am no pro on all things CHBC. I spent two years there, and in that tmie, I have seen several friends leave over the same reasons. While many of us would not say that we believe that CHBC is a cult or anything, we can definitely identify and say that the culture is unhealthy, dominate and controlling, high-demand and has more marks of a cult than the 9 Marks of a healthy church.
All-in-all, in my personal opinion, I do not believe that CJ should be counseled by Mark. They operate within the same sphere of influence, I and I believe that Mark lacks the objectivity to see the bigger problems with CJ and his leadership because Mark is authoritarian and paternalistic–which will not help CJ in the least. I do believe Mark has a healthier and clearer understanding of polity and how a congregation should work. But even outside of his own sphere of influence, many would say that Mark was extreme, especially on his views of men and women’s roles and church discipline.
11.
Did Thabiti back out from preaching on Sunday or did CLC decide that it was best to have a staff pastor preach given the circumstances? Anyone know?
I forgot another one..
#23. Planting churches where there are already gospel-preaching churches, or sending pastors or planting families in churches in the area to help them become more healthy by modeling 9Marks of a healthy church.
24. Celebrity culture–although acutely. Many of the young men idolize Mark and adopt his teaching styles, sometimes his mannerisms and patterns of speech. It ususally amounts to a bunch of weird, uncomfortable spectacles of a Sunday evening sermon.
Another good thing that CJ could learn from Mark is that CHBC and Dever are very high on formal education. Although they do have their own internship program, and also have weekenders for pastors from around the globe and nationally, they do not substitute formal theological education for their own programs.
Louisville is the next Christian Mecca in the Reformed world. I’ve never seen so many men who thought they were gifted to preach.
I think I know what the Israelites
might have felt like.
All those years as slaves in Egypt.
Knowing that there was a God who promised to deliver.
But as each day went by, “Salvation will come!”
becomes “Salvation will come-just not today.”
Then one day, Moses returns, things start happening, and before they know it, off they go!
So here we are today. If you told me in May that within 3 months:
* hundreds of pages of documentation about CJ’s behind- the-scenes behavior would be made public
* CJ would take a leave of absence
* CLC would support Meghan in filing for an “unbiblical” divorce
*Larry T and CJ would reconcile
*CLC and Fairfax would admit to their congregations in public meetings that kids were sexually abused and not only did they mishandle it, they actually let the perps continue to roam the halls without the congregation’s knowledge
* “the blogs” would be brought to all the sheeple’s notice (and many would read and walk around for days with their mouths agape and actually demand explanations from their pastors)
*Josh Harris would step down from the SGM Board
*an “independent” panel would determine if CJ is fit to minister
*another reconciliation business would be hired to “help” with the issues
*CJ would choose to attend a non-SGM church
*CLC will ocnsider severing ties with SGM….
I think I would have nominated you for fiction author of the year.
Kris,
RE post #1, your observations are spot on. I was listening to my favorite Charles Stanley last night on the way to pick up the DD from work. The title of the message was The Power Within. He spoke about silly notions of some churches to put pastors 3 feet above us on a pedestal, when Paul speaks that we are COLABORERS in Christ. The entire message was unbelievably timely, for me anyway. Im not sure if the sermons can be podcasted, but its so worth a listen.
Excerpts from the overview of the sermon:
“God’s Spirit works in every believer. He does not limit Himself to pastors and missionaries. If you’ve received Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, then residing within you is the same great power that raised Christ from the dead (Rom 8:11) The Holy Spirit pours His energy into creating godly character in all who follow the Lord.” AND “The strongest gospel message does not come from a pulpit. The most powerful witness for Jesus Christ where you work, where you live, and where you relax is you. Submit to the Holy Spirit’s work, and He will produce a great harvest of spiritual fruit in your life.”
Vanessa :new
Apologies, the the link I posted doesn’t work (in #11). To view details, go to dc.blockshopper.com, and search for “20911 Lochaven Court, Unit: A”
(This will all become relevant when that post gets out of moderation. :spin )
As a member of an SGM church observing “from afar,” I find this sad and disappointing for a few reasons.
1) It would appear that over the past several years CJ has developed stronger ties with some men outside his local church than with those inside it. In seeking out someone to guide him through the process, he felt he had to go outside his church and even outside SGM to find the help he needed. Given that CLC was for him “the greatest place on earth,” I would have hoped he’d take an attitude of walking through this with those people I’d expect to be nearest and dearest to him. He couldn’t walk through this with ANY of the CLC pastors or care group leaders? I have nothing against Mark Dever and hope he will correct and rebuke where necessary, maybe even insisting CJ sit down with him and go through Brent’s documents line by line. But he couldn’t entrust himself to ANYONE at CLC?
2) It seems he made his apology to CLC and then not only left the Family Meeting, but also left CLC completely. (If anyone at CLC can correct this, please do so.) Why not make yourself immediately available for questions directly from those you love most? Why not be in your office accepting any and all appointments from members wanting to discuss this with you? Maybe he has still been there, willing to meet face to face with anyone who was struggling with everything that’s come out – I would hope so – it would be the courageous, manly, God-honoring way to proceed, especially if you hoped to ever be seen as a respectable leader among the CLC congregation and other SGM churches in general. What could be better than Dave Harvey reporting on the SGM blog that CJ has daily been meeting with members of CLC to receive correction, talk through problems, and make amends where necessary? If CJ is still trying to perceive all his sin, this would probably go a long way in helping him do so – much more so than any meetings with those outside CLC and SGM.
3) I’m disappointed that the SGM board didn’t at least take the position that CJ should first seek counsel from within SGM. I think I’m seeing seven SGM churches in the NoVA/MD area that might be as close as Capitol Hill. Could NONE of these churches offer the care he needed? Couldn’t the SGM board at least say, “Before you go to CHBC, we’d like you to try working through this at CLC or at least XYZ-SGM-church.” No doubt, Mark Dever perhaps has more experience helping pastors walk through similar situations given his ministry to Southern Baptist pastors. Then why not just use him as a resource while also insisting or strongly suggesting one of CJ’s current CLC pastors be involved in any meetings between CJ and Dever to provide full accountability in the future?
4) If I were at the upcoming meeting I’d want to hear more about CJ’s concerns over how the CLC pastors have handled things. Is he some how concerned for the spiritual welfare of the members? Or are his hangups on needing to follow a precise process coming up again? I’m concerned for him that he might be distracted from giving attention to perceiving his own sin to giving attention to perceiving the sins of others against him in how they’re proceeding with correcting him. This is one of the things Brent tried to point out in his documents – there was that pivotal meeting with CJ, the SGM board, and the CLC pastors and shortly thereafter CJ began to have issues with how Brent had brought his correction when they should have been moving forward in repentance.**
For years I have embraced certain aspects of SGM’s teaching on the priority of the local church. Not that it is ultimate, but membership is to be taken seriously and we should seek to build our strongest relationships there. We don’t jump from church to church, but commit ourselves to a specific local church because of its commitment to the gospel. We go there for care and counsel from like-minded believers who will spur us on to love and good works. I still believe that. (But please be aware, I’ve seen people leave our SGM church for other local non-SGM churches and don’t question them on it at all – they’ve still maintained close relationships within our church and visit on special occasions. They’re still doing what I believe to be right. I’m not a hyper-only-this-SGM-local-church-will-do type.) It’s VERY disappointing to see CJ move away from his local church at a time I think he should be trying to move closer to it. To see a son-in-law express that he has always wanted to serve SGM rather than CLC is also disappointing.
However, I am greatly encouraged by what I continue to see from Josh Harris. It was made pretty clear in Brent’s documents that CJ’s intention was to turn everything over to him in a couple years. (I’ll go find the reference if someone needs it. I can’t recall where it was and there’s a lot of material to search through, you know. :)) He’s read the documents and could have easily been swayed by the prospect. It could have been very easy to go easier on CJ, but he seems to be more conscious of the average CLC member and his need to care for them. If I can put it this way without drawing offense, if you think about the shock that was given to a lot of CLC members, he seems to be expressing more concern for the victims of CJ’s leadership than for the perpetrator, while others keep trying to draw the greater attention to how CJ has been the victim of Brent’s anger and bitterness. Josh seems to acknowledge both parties are hurting right now, but realizes one should take priority over the other as far as his pastoral responsibilities are concerned. I’m encouraged because he seems to have gotten this right where many others (and possibly himself included) have failed in the past.
** It’s not directly related to this comment, but while I’m thinking of it, if we just admit Brent was totally, completely, absolutely wrong and sinful in how he has handled this whole mess, all his motives are questionable, and the blogs are full of slander and gossip about CJ and SGM, can we then admit that it should have no real bearing on the need for better responses from CJ and SGM, along with some thorough reforms and possible changes in leadership positions? I think many of us may freely concede this if it means we can move the discussion forward.
Concerning Cam’s comment on #26. Josh decided it would better if he spoke this Sunday after the events of the last week.
@ NEXT STEP:
I posted some ideas for Philly area churches on the last thread #261.
One thing that I have noticed, as you have mentioned, Whirlwind, is that throughout this entire process CJ has never, NOT ONCE, opened up himself to the congregation for questioning and a sounding board for their distaste, anger, thoughts or ANYTHING. He simply ran and found all of these people who would protect him from the onslaught.
Whirldwind – you said what I have been thinking in WAY better ways than I ever could!!!
Okay, I don’t get it. Why does a guy like Steve Whitman, whose reputation is completely trashed by the SGM leadership in Richmond, stick around for years afterwards at his franchise yet CJ who trashed his own reputation by his own words, can’t stand the heat and flees? There are other examples like Steve’s – those that were degifted yet stayed. Can’t take a dose of his own medicine? Ouch.
Also – while I do not in any sense, agree with the statements made by Mike and Brian, the In-Laws have apparently been gracious and generous. There is family involved and that tends to cloud any decision making process. That’s not an excuse, just a reality.
DPV:
You’ve been asking (appropriately) for openness by the SGM leadership in all this. Good luck. It’s a privately held corporation and they don’t have to be open about anything.
It’s been a very closed and non-communicative institution for a long, long time. And as long as laity isn’t involved in the governance, they can keep it that way.
And now for the most offense statement you’ll see on this blog today:
I prefer Texas barbeque over a Philly cheesesteak any day…
It’s interesting how I woke up this morning and my first thoughts were CJ is a coward. He’s run off to another church in order to avoid dealing with CLC, their questions, their concerns. Another thought I had is about SGM and how men are viewed as strong. I don’t think this is all CJs idea to leave CLC. I don’t think the board wants CJ to be interrogated or under that kind of scrutiny or sin-sniffing on their beloved leader (funny how that works when that is the system they created). They are weak men – CJ is a weak man – not man enough to handle it. And did he get permission from his church to go elsewhere? Is there no exit strategy for CJ? CJ seems to be above all of that.
Another thought – if Josh is head pastor at CLC – shepherd of that flock – he certainly isn’t being treated like he’s head pastor by the board. They seem to be tying Josh’s hands as far as CJ is concerned.
I know of “degifted” pastors who weren’t necessarily required to remain at their SG church, but who were “strongly suggested” to stay and put on the SGM happy face so that the people wouldn’t think there was anything wrong.
Where’s CJ’s happy face? He’s had it on for decades. Why not put it back on and stick around for awhile. Watch how things shake down. Feel the pain. It’s all caused by his empire built on sand.
Reformed + Charismatic,
You have captured my curiosity. If you wish, drop me an email db604406@wcupa.edu if I knew you way back in the day.
But the abuse did happen and, unfortunately, it was not limited to my family.
If you knew sho Stunned was, you would be…well…stunned because if you knew her, she was the last person that you would imagine getting mistreated.
I’m not sure how anyone can, at this point, support and defend CJ for the way he’s handling this. Why would it even matter what is “better” for him and would “serve him and Carolyn more”? Really?
I can remember when the Denver, Colorado church went through its ruckus a couple of years ago. The pastor there, Keith Jacobs, was de-gifted. But then, he was told in no uncertain terms that he had to continue to attend the other SGM church (which, if I’m understanding things correctly, was way over on the other side of the city and represented a tremendous inconvenience). Someone more familiar with the situation, correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall that he was threatened with losing some form of severance (or maybe his SGM-sponsored retirement account?) if he wanted to move on to a non-SGM church.
I highly doubt that Mr. Jacobs thought this “served him and his family better.” Yet that did not matter.
The interesting thing is (and I don’t have time to go digging back through the archives right now, so I’m going on memory – again, if someone out there remembers this particular de-gifting better than I do, please correct me if I’m getting this wrong), I’m pretty sure that the official word was that Mr. Jacobs had been de-gifted for the stock sins of “pride” and “fear of man.” There were no documents out there proving that he’d coerced/blackmailed a co-founder. Yes, there were people who’d had issues with Mr. Jacobs, the typical SGM authoritarian stuff. He’d left his own trail of bad situations. But he’d been asked to step down for behavior that was not nearly as clearly defined as what Brent’s documents tell us about CJ.
It’s a travesty that at this point CJ would have the gall to be focused on what would “serve him and Carolyn better.” And it’s a travesty that anyone would think it’s appropriate for CJ to be concerned about that…and to defend CJ for his self-centered desire for stepping outside the rules he set up for everyone else, rules which have devastated a good number of pastors who weren’t so lucky to be able to make and change the rules at whim, when they didn’t feel “served” by the rules.
OK I am OFFENDED :wink:
as a 30 years motorcycle rider bikes and riding are a HUGE part of my life so to use SGM/CJ and bikes in a comparision is going to far 8O The worst bike I know of is far far better than the BEST of SGM :roll:
I am also offended by all the cheesesteak talk 8O being up here in Western Canadaland it is impossible for me to access any cheesesteaks that are remotely good :cry:
Seriously though if CJ is going to another church to actually seek out some proper ( non koolaid ) christain care then hooray :clap BUT if he is just running away like a spoiled little punk to start a new church were people will worship him and he always gets his way then get ready for another :trainwreck
Just saying #23- thank you. Ah, the matching dresses and french braids….that brings back some memories of distant times for sure! :roll: (ps. I HATED the matching dresses – but the pictures mom would take were so “sound-of-music-ish”, and I can look at them and smile now, lol.) :lol:
Yes, my mother was trying to make sense of it all and did volunteer with an advocacy group to help ppl who went through some of the same struggles of poverty. I think it helped her keep her sanity at the time to be able to help others and know she wasnt alone in the hardships. The silver lining, if there is one, is that all of us kids are uniquely committed to helping suffering people now, in our own ways.
Yes, church families took a few of us at first, as long as the “few of us” were young enough to not tell anyone what had happened — unfortunately I wasnt young enough to be allowed to go to another family, just in case I might tell, so I was sent by myself to a shelter home for delinquents. (Thanks again John Loftness). Not once did anyone call or bother to tell me where my little brothers and sisters were, or if they were ok, or if they were able to see eachother. That was worse than the pain of being alone and in a s**tty place.
It was for the very reason you mentioned (about being hopeful), that we were all eventually in state care — the pastors along with a majority of the church members were ardently advocating for Dave (the child molester) to get custody of all the children once he got out of jail. The state was vehemently opposed to that (as they should be) and was afraid the children would never be protected and feared my mothers poverty would prevent her from being able to fight adequately to keep custody. (NOT because my mother was unfit or unsanitary as some ppl have cruelly bothered to insinuate on this blog)
You said “Looking back, I can’t believe I thought it was more important for you to be at CLC, than to be protected from a child molestor.” I cant tell you how much that means to me to hear you say that. Its that level of hindsight I would want from anyone who knew the situation, and I am comforted to hear that you now “get it” and see it that way. Again, thank you for recognizing and validating what happened to us. Its appreciated.
CJ and Carolyn do in fact live with Mike and Janelle.
exCLCer said, in response to “Just Saying,”
Let’s just think about that for a moment.
CJ Mahaney set up a mentality where a lot of people labored under the assumption that attending CLC was so important that even if a vulnerable kid had to live with a convicted child molester, that was preferable to that kid’s being away from “the church.”
Yet NOW, CJ is being defended for leaving his so-called “happiest place on earth” because it might “serve him and Carolyn better”?
Here’s the thing: even if CJ’s self-centered panty-waist desire to ditch the system he created is a positive development, CJ and CLC have not publicly repented of the “happiest place on earth” mentality that they trained people for decades to have. If it’s OK for CJ to run away from his own rules now, then CJ needs to stand up in front of his former home church that he shaped and led for decades and specifically declare how wrong he was to have taught people to view CLC like that.
Until he does that publicly, he has no business running away.
Even if it “serves him and Carolyn better.”
@No Longer Reformed (NLR) #26
If all that is true (and I have no reason to doubt you) then that changes my view of things about Dever & CHB having any potential to helping CJ recant and change. Sounds just as bad!
Is there a CHB survivors site yet? :(
Did anyone read the(tongue in cheek) blog from awhile back about CJ being a good candidate for Pres of SBC?
CJ and spouse are at the top of the pyramid as king and queen, their kids and spouses are right below them, followed by the pastors and such (nobility), followed by the care group leaders (knights), and then finally the serfs and peasants (the “laity”).
Kris #47 :goodpost
And just for the record, CJ was the head pastor of CLC at the time of my story.
oops, I mean Kris #46 :goodpost