C.J. Mahaney has apparently been gettng lots of concerned inquiries about his leave of absence. He put up a post yesterday to answer his fans’ questions. He said,
Many of you have kindly inquired about my leave of absence and how I will be spending my time during this season. Before I give you an update, I want to take this moment to thank each of you who have expressed your encouragement and your support in prayer.
Some of you have asked where I will be attending church during my leave. That’s a good question, as it’s not uncommon for pastors to take a leave in a church that is away from their home congregations, and this seems wise. During my leave of absence I will be attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church where Mark Dever is the senior pastor. After seeking counsel about this decision, I’ve concluded that this is the best place for Carolyn and me to receive care and counsel, to examine my life and leadership, and to consider my future during this season of reflection. I want to learn all I can during this season, and I pray that this time will benefit not only me but Sovereign Grace as well.
Mark and I have a rich history of friendship. I met Mark thirteen years ago and since then we have become very close friends. Mark has been not only a unique friend but also a mentor to me. I want to continue to take advantage of our friendship and his mentoring as much as possible during this time, benefiting from Mark’s unique pastoral wisdom and his gift of leadership. I am deeply grateful for his kindness and this opportunity. Actually, other than my wife Carolyn and those with whom I have served closely in Sovereign Grace Ministries, no one has had more influence on my life in the last ten years than Mark.
This leave of absence from my role as president of SGM will allow me the time necessary to process the valuable feedback I have received (and continue to receive), and to devote time to consider how I can best serve Sovereign Grace Ministries in the future. I’m seeking and benefiting from the advice of the SGM board and a number of leaders in the broader church—men I admire and who have become my friends over the years. I am approaching this task without making any assumptions or presuming upon any particular outcome. By God’s grace and the kindness of these men I am not lacking wise counsel as I seek to discern the will of God about how I might most effectively serve when this leave of absence concludes.
So for those who have kindly asked, I hope this information is helpful. I deeply appreciate the encouragement and support of so many at this time. I simply do not know how to adequately express this, but I trust you feel my deep gratefulness for your support. And I would appreciate your prayers, given the importance of the decisions before me and their impact on Sovereign Grace Ministries, the pastors I respect the most and the people of our churches for whom I have the deepest affection.
Finally, many of you know that this spring Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, and I were invited to speak at a pastors conference in the Dominican Republic. We are currently in Santo Domingo and the conference (Por Su Causa 2011) begins tomorrow morning. Please pray for us and for this very strategic conference. Earlier, during this same trip Jeff and I, along with Al Pino, visited the pastors that Sovereign Grace Ministries are honored to serve in Cuba. I was deeply humbled by the men and women I met, all of whom display remarkable joy and trust in God. I believe we will be sharing more about this trip on the Plant & Build blog later. In the meantime, please pray for our friends in Cuba and the Dominican Republic and for our friend Al Pino, who represents Sovereign Grace in our work with these remarkable saints. Please pray that Christ would be glorified in their midst and the gospel would go forth in these countries.
With gratefulness,
C.J.
Despite this explanation, several readers have written to Guy and me to express their ongoing confusion over C.J’s decision to ditch his own denomination family of churches during his “season of reflection.” Some have also expressed curiosity over the idea that C.J. would so quickly take the stage again as a speaker, despite the fact that there’s barely been time for SGM’s panel of “indendent” investigators to have begun their task, let alone issue a verdict.
Brent Detwiler has published a post about this topic on his own blog. You can view that post here.
I put this up yesterday as a comment, but I will post it again here for those who have written to ask what my thoughts are:
For me, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not C.J. is under church discipline at CLC. (Actually, I’m pretty sure that he is not under discipline right now…but I could be wrong.) I have a real problem with the idea that C.J. would go to another church at this time, because he is choosing an action that would not have been available to any other SGM leader in a similar situation, if the leader wanted to remain in good standing with his SGM church.
It’s simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. has options that other SGM pastors would not have.
It’s also simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. can change his song and dance about the “happiest place on earth” without at least getting up in front of his congregation – like a man – and explaining his change of heart to the people!
If C.J. now doesn’t actually think that CLC is the “happiest place on earth,” the Source of all that anyone ever needs for his Christian life, but has instead changed his tune and thinks leaders in the midst of church conflicts ought to be able to ditch their commitments and go wherever they feel they will be “better served” – well, that’s OK, but for God’s sake, C.J. needs to retract all his original teachings about the importance of having a come-hell-or-high-water commitment to one’s specific local church. C.J. needs to stand on that stage at CLC and explain exactly how his beliefs have changed. Then he needs to apologize to everyone who was made to feel like they had no other option but to hang in there and take their SGM lumps and NOT be able to run off to some other non-SGM congregation to be “better served.”
It’s NOT that a change of belief is wrong. It’s that SGM always always always does these changes without proper explanations, retractions, and apologies to those who were hurt by the original false beliefs and teachings.
Thoughts?
August 15th, 2011 at 6:02 pm
DPV…..
I have appreciated your posts. However……
If you want to have any serious credibility, bringing Darryl Hart into things even indirectly will only hurt your cause.
Those of us who know of his acrimonious remarks over the years within the Refomed community, and his very narrow version of proper Christianity according to his view of the confessions, make him somewhat of a joke in less rigid circles. The war between WTS and WSC of couse is going to find fodder in Trueman’s remarks, which I didn’t like any better than you (or most of us) did. But Hart is another CJ, if not worse.
Here is a lovely little sample of Hart’s thinking from a long email debate he had with Frame (another prof, at another Reformed seminary), after Frame speaks of an ideal worship service being friendly and welcoming(the word “worship” here according to Presbyterian usage referring to the whole church service, not just the singing part).
Did you see this Donald?
“A jealous God is not one whose presence is welcoming and friendly”
I appreciate what you are trying to do, but please, I ask you for the sake of the gospel and this whole huge mess and all the people reading here, do not even mention Hart again.
There are people in the Reformed community who have little or no grasp of adoption of sons, drawing near in the holy of holies at the mercy seat, grace, a loving father, joy, or much else. I saw that you posted on Hart’s blog affirming Hart about CJ. If you want to stay engaged in this debate, and maintain credibility, you need to reassess that.
Thanks again for your service to this country, and your heart to see the SGM mess cleaned up.
August 15th, 2011 at 6:03 pm
oops, left out the link:
http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1998HartDebate.htm
August 15th, 2011 at 7:01 pm
Lucy #248 I understand what you mean and I was in no way saying everyone on here should out themselves. I appreciate the advice.
August 15th, 2011 at 7:18 pm
TOM Regarding “My pastor (a 20 yr member of CLC, 5 years on a church plant now) also addressed the situation two weeks ago. He said he and the elders have been asking for clarification on SGM’s relationship with our church for two years with no substantive response…”
What exactly is Chris asking?? is it “What accountability to we have with SGM?? or “What accountability does SGM have with them?” or “What services do we get from SGM for our 10% tithe?”
August 15th, 2011 at 7:32 pm
@Patti #242/#243 --
I think this message is right in line with what content/focus/structure/etc… of Josh’s messages for as long as I can remember. I only mentioned it here as being especially commended because I think he did a very good job addressing the church and the population on this blog — both us members and ex-members.
It’s been awhile though since he first started preaching (which was while CJ was still senior pastor) and my memory isn’t always so good, but it is at LEAST the trajectory he has been on. All of his sermons are online, its pretty easy to check.
August 15th, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Concerned #246 -- Maybe you’ve been a lurker for some time and were only recently “concerned”, or maybe there was something in particular you were recently “concerned” about, that brought you to this blog to look into it, but either way, so far, from your few posts, you have only shown that your “concern” has been mainly for the “dangers of passing on negative reports”, “damage that can be caused by instant worldwide communication of information”, where the court case information can be found, and now wanting a detailed report on my families financial information at the time of our story. And with all the issues at hand, and with a nickname like “concerned”, I find it very odd what seems to concern you is those few things. I, admittedly, have no way of knowing if your concerns run deeper than those comments you’ve mentioned thus far. Understand then, that makes me somewhat suspicious of your intentions. If my suspicion is in error, maybe you would care to elaborate on what your main “concerns” really are?
NO member of my family is in any way obligated to answer your question (“According to your records, how much money did you receive in total from the church?”). But I will tell you there was no financial assistance (money) given to us (my mom and us children)from the church. There was a christmas, I think, we were given gifts for us kids …that may have been from the church, but might have also been from the salvation army. We were on welfare, getting food stamps just to be able to eat. And for a time before all of this happened, we were getting the group discount on tuition for the church school (tuition supplemented by the church). But other than the tuition and possibly the christmas gifts, there was no financial assistance given to my mother from the church.
August 15th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
Thanks anSGMmember, I have only been listening to Josh’s sermons since Spring of this year. And as I’ve commented before on here I would always think they were good but then it seemed he felt the need to throw a dig in somewhere at some group or person. And it sounded forced, like he just had to do it. I didn’t hear any of that yesterday. He sounded more comfortable.
August 15th, 2011 at 8:34 pm
Just popping in before I go listen to Josh’s latest Sunday message. All I can say is, CJ is one piece of work. I’ve been referring to his “season of reflection” as the “season of deflection.”
P.D.
August 15th, 2011 at 8:52 pm
QE2 said………..”Perhaps your pastor should stop sending your local church’s “tithe” to SGM until they clearly answered his concerns. I’ll bet the response to that would be substantive and take less than two years.”
Quizzler recommends that all local SGM churches withhold their “tithe” to SGM indefinately, and instead, give those funds to the hurting and needy among you; instead of lining the pockets of the selfrighteous and hypocritical who care not for those in need.
Money and power are the things they crave. If you continue to give them thes things you are just enabling them.
Seek out the widows and orphans among you.
N.S.L.B.
August 15th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
@Patti -- #257
I think this whole situation is forcing him to really be stretched in a good way. It is also letting him come out the shadows, so to speak, of CJ. I feel like the last month+ has grown him in what would have taken years otherwise.
As far as the personal digs, I don’t really recall that so much, but I guess I am just used to his ‘humor’. I must admit (running and dodging) that I listen to Mark Driscoll a lot as well, so I would probably be numb to anything that Josh might say.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
Quoting 5years’ quotation of Darryl Hart--about whom I know nothing other than that he exists and made the statement 5years references above:
(emphasis mine)
:scratch
August 15th, 2011 at 9:36 pm
RE: Protestant Dame #258
How about adding “season of defection”, too?
August 15th, 2011 at 9:40 pm
DK #262,
:clap
August 15th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
anSGMmember,
Why on earth do you listen to someone as unbalanced as Mark Driscoll? That would be like diving into the cat box for tootsie rolls.
You might think those are nuggets of wisdom but there’s a stench and I wouldn’t put them in my mouth.
At least Josh H. seems to be trying to be honorable.
August 15th, 2011 at 10:22 pm
DB — have mercy for crying out loud, its late at night. I just snorted half of my adult beverage!! I will never be able to see or hear about tootsie rolls again!! :P
August 15th, 2011 at 10:49 pm
I was listening to a maessage on the History of Revival and this little clip came in:
Dr. Eric Jordan -- How a Sect Becomes a Church
Do you know the difference between a sect and a church? Sect is a little group its sort of different and separate from the mainstream so sect can be bad and or can be good what is different is not the same as the main body of the church when I used church I don’t mean that with a capital C. A sect is a conflict group. It is at war with existing mores. The church is an accommodated group. It’s acceptable and accepted, not at war with anything. A sect seeks to establish a code of values and a state of mind different from the world around it. And for this it claims divine authority. We’ve seen this pattern in revivals in the past. In its final form it becomes an institution. Eventually when it has exceeded in accommodating itself to other rival organizations, when it has become tolerant and tolerated it tends to assume the form of a denomination.
Preacher’s Magazine -- June 1952
SGM and CJ sprung to mind immediately.
August 15th, 2011 at 11:16 pm
THIS IS MY FIRST, LAST AND ONLY RANT! DON’T AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH ME. NO CRITICISMS OR RESPONSES ARE NEEDED AFTERWARD FROM ALL THE BOTTOM FEEDERS WAITING TO POUNCE ON THE OUTPOURING OF MY HEART. I SIMPLY ASK THAT YOU PLEASE SHAKE YOUR HEADS RUEFULLY AND PRAY THAT I HAVE A MORE FORGIVING HEART AND CHARITABLE JUDGEMENT!
Dear CJ, I wrote you a letter of thanks and encouragement 15 years ago. You told me later that you were going to keep it along with other special letters you had received over the years to share with your children as a legacy of your life. I certainly hope you receive and keep a copy of this letter for them to read as a comparison of my disappointment as well!
So, CJ, let’s talk man-to-man. You wrote that your 13 year friendship with Mark far outweighs the love and care that you believe can be provided for you by those who have loved you, worshipped with you and prayed with/for you over the past 30 years? What greater insult could you heap upon the members of CLC than this slap in the face from the man who held us all to such a high standard of accountability? Well, so much for your preaching about your commitment to “The Local Church”. We now see the true weight of your commitment to CLC, your fellow church members or your own teaching. All the while we are shaking our heads ruefully.
CLC membership does not need to decide whether you are still qualified to lead. You disqualified yourself upon abandoning CLC for the sake of your own pride and vanity. You are obviously too embarrassed and ashamed to face accountability, corrective adjustment and your own reality. You should be ashamed! Looking back, it was a good thing Carolyn’s father told you at your wedding that he trusted Jesus! How insightfully prophetic was he? Do you ever wonder whether your father would still be so proud of you or would he simply shake his head ruefully?
1 Timothy 5:1 reads: “Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers” but you abandoned CLC and now disallow those who have loved you for years from either rebuking or encouraging you! We are the same age, and “brother”, since you will not allow us to restore you gently, we shall treat you as an unbeliever while we continue to simply shake our heads ruefully!
I am sickened to my stomach to remember the day you were preaching about Larry’s departure from SGM! In case you have forgotten, let recreate the moment for you, (and for everyone else who happened to miss your performance). You were fully engulfed in tears! Between sobs you asked that the microphone be turned off so you could “speak off the record”. Your words still ring in my heart through your sobs, “I would rather die than to do what Larry has done.” There was no explanation from you about what Larry had done and so you left CLC members sitting in our seats thinking, “WTF?” as we wondered what happened that would make you want to die?
Oh, yuck, that memory just made me throw up in my mouth . . . but just a little!
I praise God you preached for years to place our trust in our Sovereign Lord. Abandoning CLC has perfectly demonstrated that placing our trust in man will always result in disappointment and failure. I praise God that He does fulfill His promises and that my wife and I have taught our children to place ALL OF OUR FAITH in Him!
3 more short things . . .
1 -- Christ’s finished work was not the Cross . . . the finished work was His resurrection! Everyone dies, but Christ’s death was meaningless unless he had overcome death!
2 -- Yes, I too am a sinner, but I don’t dwell on it all the time anymore because I am a redeemed sinner. (SEE # 1 ABOVE)
3 -- I have prayed for you at length. Please know that I forgive you just as Jesus would. But in my failures, I won’t trust you anymore. Thank you, CJ, once again, for demonstrating a lesson filled with so much life application. (SEE # 1 ABOVE)
August 15th, 2011 at 11:22 pm
Oooops, this should have been with the previous post:
You’ll see this in the pattern of history. God raises something up that is at war with whatever the messages around it seems to establish a code of values and state of mind that is different from everything but as time goes on it becomes accommodated it sits in until finally becomes an institution tolerant and tolerated.
More from the same message:
Liston Pope in his book Mill Hands and Preachers list stages of development when it goes down the tubes
1. It moves from economic poverty to wealth, it is disclosed especially in salaries and in value of church property. This is true also in the spiritual world. When a group starts it usually doesn’t know anything. They say we don’t know anything but when it finishes they know everything. It has answers for everything, it knows everything. It tries everything, it is everything.
2. It moves from a psychology of persecution to a psychology of success and dominance
3. It moves from evangelism and an emphasis on evangelism and conversion to religious education emphasis
4. It moves from a high degree of congregational participation where everybody is involved to small percentage of membership that carry all the responsibility for doing everything
5. It moves from fervor in worship to restraint
6. It moves from positive action to passive listening
7. It moves from reliance on the leadings of the Spirit to administration procedures
This was an analysis by a person on the history of revivals past on how a work becomes accommodated. You can see most of these patterns in church history of when God started something and man finishes it.
Again, I would swear SGM fits this pattern. While I disagree with those here that think that SGM is a cult, these patterns are there, right down the line.
August 15th, 2011 at 11:59 pm
@ Aaron #253~
Just to clarify, please don’t think I was offering advice or implying that you thought anyone here should out themselves. I was only offering my opinion, which I think is the word I used, about online interactions. The “you” I referenced was simply the “universal you,” the “general you,” not you specifically. :wink:
August 16th, 2011 at 12:33 am
A non response to laconic conservative:
Thank you for sharing your heart here. I am sure your heartfelt expression is speaking for thousands of people who gave CJ their love, support and praise as a man of God, people who made his job as pastor a joy!! Your sentiments made me cry — I cannot express the anguish I feel in my guts for you and the other families at CLC at this moment.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:37 am
ditto what Irv said
August 16th, 2011 at 12:38 am
Breezy — :goodpost
You hit the nail on the proverbial head!! The nothings (or as the Bible states the “are nots”) become the Elite.
August 16th, 2011 at 12:41 am
Laconic Conservative,
I know you didn’t invite responses but I couldn’t help myself: :goodpost :word
I’ve been there the last 30 years, too, and am shaking my head along with you. You expressed the disappointment so many of us are feeling about CJ going elsewhere along with his sons-in-law/families which also makes no sense.
Thank you for sharing, I hope you will reconsider and not make this your “last” post.
August 16th, 2011 at 1:26 am
5Years inPDI,
I’ll preface my statement here by saying that my heart goes out to all of those in SGM who have been so deeply and even irreparably damaged by the reckless ministry practices at SGM. I had similar experiences in a large evangelical non-denom church, so there is some overlap with many of the stories here.
However, DPV is well within his rights to bring up Darryl Hart, and he has been a conduit of information for those of us in the confessionally Reformed camp. The backstory between Hart and Frame is complicated, and goes at the heart of many historical notions of what constitutes Reformed worship. However, to compare Hart to CJ Maheney (as some sort of tyrant) is borderline slanderous. Hart is in submission to the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and you would be more likely for Obama to repeal social security than you would be to have Hart step out of the sanction ecclesiastical bounds of his communion. It is bound up in who he is as an elder of the OPC, and colors all of his writings.
I’ve seen DPV get a lot of heat from some of the insiders here, as if some things are ‘out of bounds’, but the fact is this is a public forum, and a good one for helping those outside SGM grasp what is going on. Unless this is shifted to a members only format, sequestering opinion is out of order in a public forum (unless it defies good manners and sensible taste). It also seems to be part of why SGM is in this mess in the first place. Hart is a contrarian, and as such he ruffles a lot of feathers, but his voice is a needed one in the church today. Just because you differ with him on matters of worship (it’s not as if historic Reformed worship and charismatic worship are kissing cousins anyway), doesn’t devalue the benefits his work in American church history has for the church. You might even find some of his work challenging some of your concepts of how and why the whole SGM model is so fraught with difficulty today.
As a guy who looked up to the ‘Young, Restless, and Reformed’ roster of celeb pastors including CJM, I can tell you that this soul found refuge in the fold of a more somber, reflective and Reformed church that doesn’t rely on personalities to drive ministry. For all of our faults Reformed churches have had a head-start over 5 centuries ironing out ecclesiastical controversies in the church courts where accountability is (typically) held in high regard, and no one man can run the show. It isn’t a perfect system, but it is a check on the abuse of pastoral power.
I often check in, and my heart aches for what SGM is going through right now. On the ground, many people have paid a steep price for the lack of leadership accountability. Those of us in the Reformed camp aren’t heartless, nor are we out to empty the charismatic camp. But, this Reformed guy hopes that this scandal can help SGM churches and those like it develop a clearer sense of what the church looks like and puts in the hard work of choosing an ecclesiastical model that limits the damage that can be done by one man.
August 16th, 2011 at 1:43 am
Gadgets post #125
Your story breaks my heart as many have here. The comment that someone said about your personal belongings
was especially stinging and disgusting. If you still need help moving your storage items and are in the Metro/Dc area, I would be more then happy to give you a hand. I have vans and a 14″ box truck so there is no reason for this to be a problem or expense for you. I’M sure I could snag a few brothers to pitch in as well if it’s a lot of stuff.
August 16th, 2011 at 2:29 am
Laconic Conservative,
My heart and experience are with you.
I too received from CJ a tearful description of how a letter I wrote to him would be preserved with “just a few” special things in a small box, to be able to share with his children in the future.
I, like Brent Detwiler, have the copy of “Humility: True Greatness” sent to me with the same expression of gratitude for my example of humility (word for word what Brent quoted from his copy. Maybe it was a manipulative rubber stamp of his handwriting).
I too had CJ share his tearful expressions of dismay for others actions (now revealed to have been rank hypocrisy, making himself look loving, humble, and wise -- while making others look guilty, beyond anyone questioning if CJ’s accounts were even accurate.
It is heartbreaking, but it is also a form of high-handed manipulation and arrogance that is beyond what any of us could have imagined, on our most uncharitable day.
August 16th, 2011 at 3:59 am
Laconic Conservative #267 :goodpost
August 16th, 2011 at 6:33 am
Andy the picketer -- Thank you so very much for your willingness to help. Unfortunately I’m not in the DC Metro area, but thankfully, there were some wonderful brothers and sisters who were able to help out. All is moved. I’m very grateful for those who have given of themselves during this painful time in my life, Sadly, they are in the minority. The overall culture that has seeped into my SGM church from on high of “some are more equal than others” as well as the self-righteousness, false humility and pharacitical attitudes is just disturbing.
August 16th, 2011 at 7:11 am
This may seem random in the thread, I meant to post last night but never got around to it, so here goes.
Bouncing around in the back of my mind is the phrase “over the past two years.” I have noticed it has been said by Joshua at member’s meetings, by Chris Silard regarding his desire for clarification of his churches relationship with sgm, and a few other places.
What I am pondering is that I have also heard people criticize Brian and Mike for pulling out “so early in the process.”
I would submit, when I put the above two thoughts together, I think in true SGM secrecy, a lot of conflict has been going on behind the scenes for the past two years, which has only recently been discussed in public and therefore Brian and Mike aren’t pulling out as early in the process as it appears to us outside of the pastorate. :Thinking:
August 16th, 2011 at 7:14 am
… ‘scuse me … pardon me … sorry, I was down there feeding on the bottom and I heard a commotion up here. They have really good coffee down there, btw … :)
LC #267 -- No reason why you should feel bad about expressing yourself. A “forgiving heart and charitable judgement” doesn’t mean ignoring the truth.
I’ve stuck to the opinion that since CJ was not asked to step down or under church discipline in any way, that it can’t be argued that he needs to endure his “season of defection” (thanks DK) at CLC or another SGM church. The situation is different and the same rules don’t apply as they did for other pastors. At the same time, it doesn’t mean that if CJ had an ounce of integrity, he shouldn’t stay around and take his lumps like a grown man.
Also, wanting to make sure I don’t dissapoint -- pouncing on your #1 -- you said:
Amen, and the work continues… to grab a bit of scripture about a chapter or so ahead of where Josh started on Sunday:
Have a great day, everyone. I gotta go back down and find the rest of my coffee… :wink:
August 16th, 2011 at 7:16 am
LaconicConservative,
You speak for many of us “long-timers” when you express your disappointment and disillusionment. Thank God that we have the mind of Christ and can discern what is good and what is not. Thank you for taking the time to tell it like it is!
August 16th, 2011 at 7:20 am
Unfortunately, it seems there is still some koolaid left in the pitcher -August 11 2011 at 11:16 am
Listening to Correction, Speaking the Truth and Avoiding Slander
8 Comments
by the Pastors of Covenant Life Church
Our church is facing a uniquely challenging season. Since early July our congregation has been forced to respond to a flood of online allegations concerning leaders in Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries.
While very difficult, we believe that God is using this trial for our good. He is humbling us, increasing our dependence on him, helping us to see our sin more clearly and revealing where our structures and practices need to change. We are praying he would continue to refine us and prune us so that we would bear more fruit as a church (John 15:2).
What has made a response to this situation difficult is that there are several biblical priorities to which we’re seeking to be faithful. And at times they can seem to be competing against each other. These priorities are:
1. Humbly listening to criticism and correction regardless of who it comes from or how it’s delivered (Proverbs 12:1, 9:8-9; Matthew 7:4-5).
2. Sharing honestly and transparently with our members what we understand about the current situation (Colossians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Proverbs 12:9).
3. Guarding against gossip and slander (Ephesians 4:31; Exodus 20:16; 1 Peter 2:1).
As we’ve navigated this situation so far we’ve realized that we’ve not always been as balanced as we should have been—at times we’ve emphasized one of these priorities at the expense of the others.
As we press forward, we want to provide guidance from Scripture about how to process information about other people found in online documents, blogs or just casual conversations. What follows are some principles we believe are important for all of us to keep in mind.
Listen Humbly
We don’t want to use the category of gossip and slander to silence needed criticism and concerns. Proverbs 12:1 says, “Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.” And Proverbs 12:15 says, “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.”
We recognize that some of the correction coming to our church is fitting and accurate and has been quite helpful for us as we seek to lead the church into the future. The challenge is that the delivery and accuracy of the criticism is sometimes hard to swallow. The combination of hurt and a lack of a clear path of communicating grievances has prompted some to share their grievances in unhelpful ways and with unhelpful attitudes. But regardless, we don’t want to let this keep us from hearing what is true.
Another way to put this is that we don’t want to let sinful attitudes or unhelpful modes of communication cause us to miss truth we need to hear. In a fallen world, truth usually comes in mixed forms. This is why Jesus told us to focus on the “log” in our own eye not the fault of our brother (Matthew 7:4). So what we don’t want to say is, “I’ll only listen to things that I believe are completely or mostly true or seem to be shared in the most humble manner.” In some cases God will allow people to speak to us or about us in ways that are mixed with sin. Our instinct will often be to focus on finding what is false, exaggerated, or tainted by other sin so we can justify dismissing everything as false. In doing so, we may fail to see those things that are actually true and need to be faced. So even if 90% of a statement is false, we can benefit and grow from facing the 10% that is true. (How much more so if God eventually helps us to see that there was even more truth in the criticism than we initially recognized.)
This important step of listening should not be overlooked because we don’t like what we’re hearing or even if we don’t like the methodology or tone of the messenger. How many of us have communicated correction with perfect tone when we’ve been hurt?
So, first, let us listen. “Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted” (Matthew 23:12, cf. Luke 14:11, 18:14). And, “If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame” (Proverbs 18:13).
Discern
Having established the attitude of humility expressed in listening, we also need to remember that the only written record that requires no filtering is the Bible. Even the Sunday sermon by a trusted preacher needs to be listened to with discernment (see Acts 17:11 for a good example). Scripture calls us to “… test everything; hold fast to what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). So, while we are sure to find some help in the critique of others, we are sure to find error as well. This is particularly true when someone is speaking from hurt or grave concern.
Part of reading with discernment is recognizing that when you are reading Brent’s documents you’re reading a singular perspective that doesn’t include all the facts and circumstances that could drastically change your perspective of what is described. So while Brent’s documents contain facts in the form of e-mails and meeting transcripts, there are also many places where Brent assumes he knows the motives and intentions of C.J.’s heart. That’s not his place to do—it’s not your place or my place to do either. This is something Scripture expressly forbids. Romans 14: 4 & 10 says, “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls … Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.”
Remember Your Relational Responsibilities
The decision of whether or not to read critical comments in Brent’s documents or the blogs takes careful thought and prayer. One helpful way to process the issue is to think about your differing responsibilities. A simple way to sum this up is: Be tough on yourself, concerned for those closest to you, and protective of others.
The person for whom you are most responsible before the Lord is yourself. Therefore, if someone says something critical about you, it’s generally wise to ask for God’s grace to hear them out and thoroughly examine their input. If you doubt your own judgment or objectivity, you might even want to bring in a third person to hear the criticism against you and help you to process it. The same would be generally true if a report concerns someone for whom you have some responsibility (spouse, child, employee, or even a close friend). If the report contains some truth, it may be necessary for you to take action to ensure that the person you are responsible for faces those truths and deals with them biblically. The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.
But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.
What Type of Person Are You?
Another important issue to factor in when deciding what you do or don’t read is your own strength and weakness. Some people have hearts like Teflon: they can hear critical words about someone else and easily dismiss and forget them once the words are proved false or valid criticisms have been properly dealt with. Other people are like Velcro: critical words stick in their minds and poison their hearts for a long time, even if the words prove to be false or are properly dealt with. Prayerfully ask God (and maybe even your spouse or a close friend) to help you discern which kind of person you are. If you’re more like Velcro than Teflon, it will be wise for you stay far away from critical reports unless you have a specific and compelling responsibility to consider and act on them.
Helpful Teaching on Dealing with Bad Reports
To elaborate on how to go to others and process negative information about others, we want to share an article entitled “Should You Pass on Bad Reports,” written by Tim Keller and David Powlison. We share this lengthy excerpt below because it speaks directly to the biblical principles needed as we process accusations being made in this season. While not everything here applies precisely to this situation, we find these categories very helpful in thinking about the situation from Scripture.
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What Does James Say about Passing Along Bad Reports?
“Humble yourselves before the Lord … Brothers, don’t slander or attack one another.” –James 4:10-11
The verb “slander” simply means to “speak against” (Gk. kata-lalein). It is not necessarily a false report, just an “against-report.” The intent is to belittle another. To pour out contempt. To mock. To hurt. To harm. To destroy. To rejoice in purported evil. This can’t mean simple disagreement with ideas—that would mean that we could never have a debate over a point. This isn’t respectful disagreement with ideas. James warns against attacking a person’s motives and character, so that the listeners’ respect and love for the person is undermined. “As the north wind brings rain, so slander brings angry looks” (Proverbs 25:23). Everybody gets upset at somebody else: slanderer, slanderee, slander-hearer.
The link of slander to pride in James 4:10 shows that slander is not the humble evaluation of error or fault, which we must constantly be doing. Rather, in slander the speaker speaks as if he never would do the same thing himself. It acts self-righteous and superior toward one’s obviously idiotic inferiors. Non-slanderous evaluation is fair-minded, constructive, gentle, guarded, and always demonstrates that speakers sense how much they share the same frailty, humanity, and sinful nature with the one being criticized. It shows a profound awareness of your own sin. It is never “against-speaking.”
James 5:9 adds a nuance: “Don’t grumble against one another.” Literally, it means don’t moan and groan and roll your eyes. This refers to a kind of “against-speaking” that is not as specific as a focused slander or attack. It hints at others flaws, not only with words, but by body language and tone. In print, such attitudes are communicated by innuendo, guilt by association, sneering, pejorative vocabulary. In person, it means shaking your head, rolling your eyes, and re-enforcing the erosion of love and respect for someone else. For example, “You know how they do things around here. Yadda, yadda. What do you expect?” Such a “groan” accomplishes the same thing as outright slander. It brings “angry looks” to all concerned. Passing on negative stuff always undermines love and respect. It’s never nourishing, never constructive, never timely, never grace-giving.
What Does the Book of Proverbs Say about Receiving Bad Reports?
“He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.” –Proverbs 17:9
The first thing to do when hearing or seeing something negative is to seek to “cover” the offense rather than speak about it to others. That is, rather than let a bad report “pass in” to your heart as truth, and then get “passed along” to others, you should seek to keep the matter from destroying your love and regard for a person. How?
Start by remembering your own sinfulness. “All a man’s ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the Lord” (Proverbs 16:2). To know this automatically keeps you from being too sure of your position and of speaking too strongly against people that you hear about or people on the other side of a conflict. You intuitively realize that you may not be seeing things right. Your motives are never as pure as you think they are. To know this acts to keep you from being too sure of the facts, too sure of your position, and of speaking too quickly and too negatively about other people. Knowing your own sinfulness helps you not make snap judgments that take what you hear too seriously.
When you remember your sinfulness, remember God’s mercies. “…love covers all offenses” (Proverbs 10:12). The God who is love has covered all your offenses. He knows everything about you (and the whole story about that other person). He has chosen to forgive you, and life-saving mercy cost Jesus his life. He could write you up with a 100% True Bad Report, but he has chosen to bury your sins in the depths of the ocean. That makes the life and death difference. If your sins are not buried in the ocean of his mercy, then you will be justly exposed and will justly perish. But when you’ve known mercy, then even when you hear report of grievous evil, an instinct toward mercy should arise within you. To savor the tasty morsels of gossip and bad reports is very different from grieving, caring, and wishing nothing less than the mercies of Christ upon all involved. And most bad reports are much more trivial. They are the stuff of busybodies and gossips going “tut-tut-tut.”
Then remember that there is always another side. “The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him” (Proverbs 18:17). You never have all the facts. And you never have all the facts you need all at once. You are never in a position to see the whole picture, and therefore when you hear the first report, you should assume you have far too little information to draw an immediate conclusion. What you’ve heard from someone else is only “hear-say” evidence. It has no standing or validity unless it is confirmed in other ways.
So when you hear a negative report about another, you must keep it from passing into your heart as though it were true. If you pass judgment based on hearsay, you are a fool. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t check out the facts. Go to the person. Hear other witnesses. If you’re far away from the scene, wait for more of the story to come out. Suspend judgment. Don’t get panicked or stampeded by mob-psychology and rumors. Be content not to know many things. You don’t need to have an opinion about everything and everyone.
Third, what should you do if you are close enough to the situation to be involved AND you think the injustice or matter is too great or grievous for you to ignore? For starters, notice that you only really need to know something if it touches your sphere of life and relationships. In that case, you should do what will help you to express God’s call upon you to speak Ephesians 4:29 words of wise love.
In Derek Kidner’s commentary on Proverbs 25:7–10, he writes that when you think someone has done wrong you should remember, “One seldom knows the full facts (v.8) and one’s motives in spreading a story are seldom as pure as one pretends (v.10). To run to the law or to the neighbors is usually to run away from the duty of personal relationship.” See Christ’s clinching comment in Matthew 18:15: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.” In short, if you feel the problem is too great and you can’t keep it from destroying your regard for the person, you must go personally before you go to anyone else.
When Should You Go?
Galatians 6:1 says we are to go when a person is caught in a trespass. That means there should be some kind of “pattern” or the unmistakable exposure of a wrong. Don’t go the first time you hear a bad report about someone doing wrong. As we said above, there’s another side to most stories, and our motives are never totally pure when we get indignant. Go if the person seems caught—that is, trapped or stuck in a habit pattern of wrong behavior or falsehood.
How Should You Go?
Galatians 6:1 says we are to restore gently and in humility, bearing all the fruit of the Spirit. Beware of your own tendencies to be tempted—perhaps to the same sin, perhaps to reactive sins of self-righteousness or judgmentalism, perhaps to avoidance sins of cover-up and pretending. Galatians 6:2 goes on to say that we actually fulfill the law of Christ by bearing each other’s burdens. We become nothing less than lesser redeemers in the pattern of our Great Redeemer. Jesus in Matthew 18:15ff says we should also go persistently, and not give up in the process. Patience is one fruit of the Spirit because problems don’t always clear up quickly. There is a progression in efforts to get to the bottom of a bad report, to confirm the facts, and to work at bringing restoration.
Who Should Go?
Galatians 6 says you—plural—who are spiritual should go to the straying one. That both defines how you should go and it calls for multiple people to get involved. Similarly Matthew 18:15ff says to bring in other people if matters don’t resolve one to one. The right kind of checking out a bad report is always done in person and often will be done by involving multiple wise persons.
Why Should You Go?
In both Galatians 6 and Matthew 18 the goal is to restore the person and to re-establish sin-broken relationships. You are working to restore people both to God and to others.
Conclusion
In summary, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the principle is this. If you hear bad reports about other Christians you must either cover it with love or go to them personally before speaking of it to any others.
• The first thing to do is to simply suspend judgment. Don’t pass on bad reports.
• The second thing to do is “cover” it in love, reminding yourself that you don’t know all about the heart of the person who may have done evil—and you know your own frailty. Don’t allow bad reports to pass into your own heart.
• The final thing to do is go and speak to them personally.
What you should never do is rush to judgment, or withdraw from loving another, or pass on the negative report to others. This is challenge enough when you’re dealing with the local grapevine or slow-moving postal service. In a world of instant worldwide communication of information it’s an even bigger challenge, because you can do bigger damage more quickly. Whether the bad report offers true information, or partial information, or disinformation, or false information—it is even more important that you exercise great discretion, and that you take pains to maximize boots-on-the-ground interpersonal relationships.
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Closing Thoughts
We realize that not every aspect of this article applies to our current situation—not all the information contained in the documents written by Brent or on the blogs is a clear-cut case of slander. But the public airing of these documents and accusations on the internet has ratcheted up the complexity of this situation and brought voices into the conversation that are neither helpful nor constructive. That’s part of what makes this situation so complex for us as a church. C.J. has confessed to several of the main accusations and repented of his sin. So there is a place for us as a church family to talk about what an appropriate response is. It’s not slander for us to discuss standards for leadership in the light of Scripture. It’s appropriate for members of the church to raise questions and talk to pastors and others about what Scripture calls us to change and reform. We (as your pastors) continue to invite questions, concerns, feedback and disagreement. And even as we guard against gossip and slander, we will continue to be committed to listening humbly and being open and transparent.
But we hope that Keller and Powlison’s article will serve us all to guard against the temptation to slander. Let’s do all we can to avoid judging motives. Let’s go directly to people instead of whispering about them to others. And let’s work hard to maintain the “unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Ephesians 4:3).
One of the greatest temptations that we all face as our church walks through the current season is to take sides and try to identify who are the “good guys” and “bad guys.” More often than not we decide the “good guys” are the ones we typically agree with, while the “bad guys” are those with whom we more often disagree. The reality, however, is that no one will come out of the present situation untarnished by his or her own sin and mistakes. There are no “good guys” and “bad guys” in our present turmoil. There are only fallen sinners who have been redeemed by the immeasurable grace of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
None of us has responded perfectly without contributing our own sin or our own lack of wisdom in this situation—your pastors included. Your pastors, our friends in Sovereign Grace, our church members, Brent Detwiler and people writing on the blogs have all contributed helpful things and some that are unhelpful. This should cause us all to walk humbly. God is examining all of us. Let’s live with grateful awareness that only through Jesus Christ’s life, death and resurrection can any of us be saved from our sins and reconciled to God. With that in mind let’s ask him to give us grace to walk in a manner worthy of this glorious gospel (Ephesians 4:1).
August 16th, 2011 at 7:33 am
Chris Silard was in my care group for a while on his way back in at CLC. I know he had stepped down from being a pastor — under what circumstances I don’t remember. Then he was restored. It’s nice to hear that the Frederick plant is going well — I know a number of people there too.
Anne -- CLC 1986-2007
August 16th, 2011 at 7:37 am
I’m sad for the pain here, but see God using the tears to draw many closer to Him and to strengthen each of us for His glory.
C.J. may still have some followers, but he’s toast in many ways. Toto pulled the curtain on the Great Oz while he was pulling levers to deceive.
Now, a more pressing concern is for the people following the local pastors who have followed the Great Oz in lockstep and inculcated his falsehood into their local churches. Many of them too are filled with arrogance while putting on a show of humility. As the SGM empire weakens, some of these men will likely pull congregations off to themselves in the hope of keeping their paychecks intact. As one who has been there, I implore you to be more wary than ever. Birds of a feather flock together. Never forget that.
August 16th, 2011 at 7:37 am
For Laconic C. at #267…I can only say a hearty AMEN, brother.
I wholeheartedly especially agree with your observation, “placing our trust in man will always result in disappointment and failure”. We need daily reminders of this fact. Thank you, thank you. :goodpost
August 16th, 2011 at 7:45 am
kmack, thanks for sharing that update. (I keep trying to figure out what kmack stands for. A great Scottish name? No need to respond, it just goes through my mind each time I see you post.)
August 16th, 2011 at 7:45 am
@ DB #264:
Yeah, I know there is quite that opinion of Mark. And I know a lot of pople will draw similarities between Mars Hill/Acts 29 and SGM. I know there is criticism to be made of Driscoll and his teaching, but there is also a lot of good truth in there. I’ve had cats, so I can make it through the litter box. ok, well that still makes me want to puke, but anyways. I can at least say that I have never fallen asleep while driving and listening to Mark and I have been able to take away some good points from his teachings. Maybe he resonates with younger men more. I benefitted from getting, as he says, kicked in the middle, on his message to husbands in the Trial series. Honestly I have learned a lot. So of what to do, and some of what not to do.
He, however, is NOT my pastor -- his teachings sit under the authority of not only the scriptures and the Lord, but also under my pastors, so it is secondary to what is preached at CLC.
I’d like to believe I have enough spiritual maturity and discernment to know what to take and not take from anyone who is at least not pure heresy. Even then -- I can learn more about how to reach out to those who sit under heretical teaching and try to walk them into the light. Not to say I’ll be download and JW/mormon sermons anytime soon. But I’ve dialogued extensively with those of other religions to be able to understand their POV and try to reach out to them.
Ok, I will continue to run and dodge now. Please don’t hate me. :wink:
August 16th, 2011 at 7:48 am
Acme — When did Chris Silard step down as pastor at CLC? Are possibly confusing Chris Silard with Chris Glass?
August 16th, 2011 at 8:20 am
To: GS and all the pastors at Covenant Life Church:
Greg, I want to thank you for taking the step to be open and post on this public blog in relation to the past mishandled sex abuse cases discussed here. You have taken a great step to reach out to the hurt, angry, and disenfranchised people who have been in the past “discarded” by various SGM churches, as well as, those who patently disagree with various aspects of SGM’s doctrine and practices. My husband, daughter and I have discussed this entire situation at length and have decided not to call you in relation to the tragedy that occurred in our family. We are no longer CLC members and we wish to move on with our lives, serving God elsewhere. This is particularly true for our daughter. However, I did want to write a response to you openly on SGMsurvivors.
Your blog post appears, on first reading, an apology of sorts, and yet it is not. A number of commenters gave you a huge benefit of the doubt on that. I had not made it known publically before that John Loftness and Gary Ricucci were the pastors involved in our sex abuse case, but you as a pastoral staff most assuredly knew that. [These were the same pastors who 6 years earlier had been involved in exCLCer’s case] Both of these men have since then been promoted within SGM ranks. JL is a Senior Pastor and on the SGM Board and GR is a “SGM Pastor”. To send an email from yourself and “on behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,” while it may be heartfelt, gave the false impression that there had been some sort of conviction of wrong doing by the pastors involved in these sex abuse cases. Nowhere in this email is an actual apology of the errors in judgment by these pastors.
You desire to talk to us, saying, “I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future,” and I’m glad that you do, however, I am sure that you can read between the lines of the various sex abuse stories and the resulting blog comments from hundreds of people and figure it out. You don’t need to talk to us. I would encourage you, though, to discuss an appropriate policy for handling sex abuse cases with professionals that deal specifically with sex abuse victims.
I agree with Kris’s comment #104 on 8/12:
“I would also encourage Mr. Somerville to step outside his SGM box and look at the larger picture. As he thinks about exCLCer’s and SGMnot’s stories, he needs to realize that the harsh and hard-hearted responses of the pastors involved in those situations have much broader root causes. He needs to understand that there is a much MUCH bigger problem beneath the surface than just two (or a half-dozen or however many) badly handled cases of sexual abuse….while I believe that yes, it is important for SGM/CLC pastors to reach out to all victims of specific situations, I actually think it is just as important for these pastors to examine the trends. Examine the root causes. Examine what it is about what their organization has trained them to believe what enabled these horrific things to happen in the first place.”
I believe many of the critical bloggers and commenters in the blogosphere have clearly communicated what these root causes are and there is much to be learned from critics.
Instead of calling you privately, I would like to ask some pointed questions publically, that summarize what I believe are the crux of the pastoral mishandling of our cases. And I would like to encourage you, or better yet JL and GR, to post responses on this blog. I believe that this will help in the healing process of all those hurt and abused in the midst of these sex abuse cases:
1. What were the reasons that CLC pastors felt they had the authority and right to interject themselves into the legal system, as it dealt with the crime of child sex abuse, and to try to negate or minimize the appropriate sentencing for those crimes by asking victims’ parents to delay or not call the police and to ask parents’ of victims to advocate for the perpetrators by letters or statements asking for leniency? (This was, particularly egregious, in regards to exCLCer’s stepfather’s crime of child molestation of her sister of approximately 4 years!)
2. When JL counseled us “don’t call the police”, after he ALREADY had directly pastored another family in the midst of a sex abuse case and DEFINITELY knew that the law required us to do so, AND that it would be in the best interest of our daughter and other possible victims, why did he do that and has he been censored/disciplined through his employers, SRC/SGM?
3. Why did JL instruct us to tell no one, not even our Care Group, close family, and even close friends living with us? Did they consider the privacy of the perpetrator and his family as more important than the crisis that we were going through? Or was the secrecy because they were more concerned with the reputation of CLC than our emotional and psychological needs? In both cases, why wasn’t the embarrassment and shame of others knowing about these crimes part of the NATURAL CONSEQUENCES of committing such a crime?
4. Were there any direct funds or donations from SGM or CLC paid for the legal fees of either perpetrator or their family during these court cases? And if so, will you make financial restitution to the victims and their families, in particular, to the children of exCLCer’s family for any psychological counseling that they have needed from the sexual molestation or the errors in judgment by the pastors handling these cases?
5. What was the length of time between the discovery of sin, which was deemed serious enough to excommunicate a woman with 9 children and no viable source of income, whose child had recently been a victim of such a horrible, longstanding sexual molestation by a church member, and the time in which she was asked to leave? Why was there not a LONG season of longsuffering for this woman and her children? And was there any impropriety in the decision to excommunicate her, because she had dared to not agree to your counsel or so that the perp’s identity would be protected?
6. Why was the ENTIRE church of approximately 1000 members at that time, a church supposedly built upon the practicing the “One Anothers” of scripture, not allowed the opportunity to serve and care for all these children rather than having them placed in a often-flawed, secular foster system? Thus, multiplying many times over the re-victimization of these children and destroying in the process any faith or trust that some of them had in God?!
7. Why did JL and GR not answer the confrontive letters and emails that exCLCer sent them each year on the anniversary date of her family being thrown out of the church? How could they turn a deaf ear to her cries for justice, year after year, until finally this past summer when a male member of CLC inquired about her case? She has more heart and passion than many who call themselves Christians!!
8. After reading our case stories and the resulting outrage online, do you as a pastoral team understand clearly what child molestation is, so that this crime will not be minimized by calling it “teenage experimentation”, or in exCLCer’s case “attraction of the woman that she was becoming” or some other excuse. And will you create a written, zero-tolerance policy that will specifically support victims and their families with follow-up counseling, as needed, AND clearly protect other possible victims in the church family as the primary goals VS. emphasizing the care, legal advocacy, and privacy of the perpetrators?
It is my hope that through this very painful discipline of the Holy Spirit that CLC and SGM, at large, are experiencing will bear fruit and bring about a deeper understanding and practice of the love of God. I believe that the failures of CLC’s pastoral team in caring for sex abuse cases have become public as part of that discipline. As the other cases posted and referred to on SGMsurvivors testify, this mishandling of sex abuse cases has been a pervasive pattern within SGM. And it is my hope that this entire family of churches will decisively deal with this grievous pattern and the underlying root causes of wrong theological emphases, and put an end to it.
In conclusion, I would urge the pastors of CLC and SGM to not discount the criticisms and opinions of people commenting on this and other related blogs. I am sure that it is very difficult to hear strong words, sometimes communicated in anger or frustration. There is much to learn from those who have passion and take the time to express their thoughts. Also, I believe that the biblical step of a clear, detailed repentance is in order from JL and GR, even though all the victims and family members appear to not want to hear it. This blog would be a good format to do that in, since some of the family members from these cases, at this time, will not set foot in a church building!
May God continue to work in each of our lives,
SgmNot
August 16th, 2011 at 8:33 am
SGMNOT: :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
I cannnot say it enough- :goodpost
August 16th, 2011 at 8:55 am
That was an amazingly well thought out and gracious letter, sgmnot. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
August 16th, 2011 at 9:01 am
DB #264,
I’ve been trying to be so good and not giving a giant LOL to your tootsie roll post, but after seeing it again this morning it’s just too funny, I don’t care who ya are.
And then realizing and reminding myself it was my studying/criticalness of Mark Driscoll’s sermons because of his influence on the young people over here, that led me to study SGM because he listed CJ as one of his 3 mentors, and that name sounded familiar. Their style and personality may be completely different but similar doctrine.
No matter whose teaching that we subject ourselves to it is still our responsibility to weigh carefully what is said. It still surprises me how relatively few Christians actually study their preacher’s sermons against the whole counsel of scripture.There was one sermon where Driscoll was teaching on Genesis 3 but never turned to it or asked his audience to turn to it but he quoted verbatim the teaching of other people I’ve heard instead. I kept looking for ANY resemblance in the scripture to his reference and that’s what I was pointing out to one of his young followers when I saw CJ’s name on Driscoll’s screen, and made the connection to Daughter’s BF’s denomination.
Oh, and just for the record. I do voice the positive when I see it also. In fact back in April after watching Mark Driscoll’s Easter sermon in our Seattle Qwest stadium I posted on my FB page that even though I am outspoken about my strong disagreements with him, his Easter salvation message was really good.
( I didn’t say though how I didn’t really see how it meshes with his predestination messages.) But I believe many came to Christ that day through Mark’s sermon.
August 16th, 2011 at 9:12 am
sgmnot #289
:goodpost :!: :goodpost :!: :goodpost :!:
Well said! Very well said!
August 16th, 2011 at 9:23 am
Great letter, sgmnot.
I hope they answer you so we can see the response.
August 16th, 2011 at 9:27 am
#258 PD hahahaha refering to his “season of reflection” as the “season of deflection.”