C.J. Mahaney Explains Why He’s Not Attending Any SGM Church During “Season Of Reflection”
August 13, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
C.J. Mahaney has apparently been gettng lots of concerned inquiries about his leave of absence. He put up a post yesterday to answer his fans’ questions. He said,
Many of you have kindly inquired about my leave of absence and how I will be spending my time during this season. Before I give you an update, I want to take this moment to thank each of you who have expressed your encouragement and your support in prayer.
Some of you have asked where I will be attending church during my leave. That’s a good question, as it’s not uncommon for pastors to take a leave in a church that is away from their home congregations, and this seems wise. During my leave of absence I will be attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church where Mark Dever is the senior pastor. After seeking counsel about this decision, I’ve concluded that this is the best place for Carolyn and me to receive care and counsel, to examine my life and leadership, and to consider my future during this season of reflection. I want to learn all I can during this season, and I pray that this time will benefit not only me but Sovereign Grace as well.
Mark and I have a rich history of friendship. I met Mark thirteen years ago and since then we have become very close friends. Mark has been not only a unique friend but also a mentor to me. I want to continue to take advantage of our friendship and his mentoring as much as possible during this time, benefiting from Mark’s unique pastoral wisdom and his gift of leadership. I am deeply grateful for his kindness and this opportunity. Actually, other than my wife Carolyn and those with whom I have served closely in Sovereign Grace Ministries, no one has had more influence on my life in the last ten years than Mark.
This leave of absence from my role as president of SGM will allow me the time necessary to process the valuable feedback I have received (and continue to receive), and to devote time to consider how I can best serve Sovereign Grace Ministries in the future. I’m seeking and benefiting from the advice of the SGM board and a number of leaders in the broader church—men I admire and who have become my friends over the years. I am approaching this task without making any assumptions or presuming upon any particular outcome. By God’s grace and the kindness of these men I am not lacking wise counsel as I seek to discern the will of God about how I might most effectively serve when this leave of absence concludes.
So for those who have kindly asked, I hope this information is helpful. I deeply appreciate the encouragement and support of so many at this time. I simply do not know how to adequately express this, but I trust you feel my deep gratefulness for your support. And I would appreciate your prayers, given the importance of the decisions before me and their impact on Sovereign Grace Ministries, the pastors I respect the most and the people of our churches for whom I have the deepest affection.
Finally, many of you know that this spring Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, and I were invited to speak at a pastors conference in the Dominican Republic. We are currently in Santo Domingo and the conference (Por Su Causa 2011) begins tomorrow morning. Please pray for us and for this very strategic conference. Earlier, during this same trip Jeff and I, along with Al Pino, visited the pastors that Sovereign Grace Ministries are honored to serve in Cuba. I was deeply humbled by the men and women I met, all of whom display remarkable joy and trust in God. I believe we will be sharing more about this trip on the Plant & Build blog later. In the meantime, please pray for our friends in Cuba and the Dominican Republic and for our friend Al Pino, who represents Sovereign Grace in our work with these remarkable saints. Please pray that Christ would be glorified in their midst and the gospel would go forth in these countries.
With gratefulness,
C.J.
Despite this explanation, several readers have written to Guy and me to express their ongoing confusion over C.J’s decision to ditch his own denomination family of churches during his “season of reflection.” Some have also expressed curiosity over the idea that C.J. would so quickly take the stage again as a speaker, despite the fact that there’s barely been time for SGM’s panel of “indendent” investigators to have begun their task, let alone issue a verdict.
Brent Detwiler has published a post about this topic on his own blog. You can view that post here.
I put this up yesterday as a comment, but I will post it again here for those who have written to ask what my thoughts are:
For me, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not C.J. is under church discipline at CLC. (Actually, I’m pretty sure that he is not under discipline right now…but I could be wrong.) I have a real problem with the idea that C.J. would go to another church at this time, because he is choosing an action that would not have been available to any other SGM leader in a similar situation, if the leader wanted to remain in good standing with his SGM church.
It’s simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. has options that other SGM pastors would not have.
It’s also simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. can change his song and dance about the “happiest place on earth” without at least getting up in front of his congregation – like a man – and explaining his change of heart to the people!
If C.J. now doesn’t actually think that CLC is the “happiest place on earth,” the Source of all that anyone ever needs for his Christian life, but has instead changed his tune and thinks leaders in the midst of church conflicts ought to be able to ditch their commitments and go wherever they feel they will be “better served” – well, that’s OK, but for God’s sake, C.J. needs to retract all his original teachings about the importance of having a come-hell-or-high-water commitment to one’s specific local church. C.J. needs to stand on that stage at CLC and explain exactly how his beliefs have changed. Then he needs to apologize to everyone who was made to feel like they had no other option but to hang in there and take their SGM lumps and NOT be able to run off to some other non-SGM congregation to be “better served.”
It’s NOT that a change of belief is wrong. It’s that SGM always always always does these changes without proper explanations, retractions, and apologies to those who were hurt by the original false beliefs and teachings.
Thoughts?
I read CJ’s post much earlier today…
I believe CJ thinks, and wants everyone else to think, that all of what’s going on right now – the BD issue, the blogs, the dissention within CLC – is a mere distraction, which is best avoided. Nothing more than a speedbump on the road to glory.
From Brent Detwiler:
“Sovereign Grace Ministries and C.J. are experiencing a time of humbling. The once stellar reputation of the ministry exists no longer. There has been a decline. In recent years, hundreds of people have left churches in numerous cities due to a growing distrust of their leaders. These were good people and in many cases people who had been part of the movement for a long time. They were loyal. They were servants. Theywere followers of Jesus. Now they are gone.”
100s have left? Mr. Dixon posted yesterday that there were multitudes at Kingsway.
Retouring Mr. Detwiler’s documents for the fourth time, looking for holes, rebuttals, exaggerations, “foul play,” over-statements, bitterness, anger and any other thing that might be evaluation. Mr. Detwiler deserves rigourous cross-examination.
Again, in the interests of fairness, objectivity.
His Majesty’s Spirit creates truth-lovers of facts, fairness, justice and mercy.
Again, regards to all posters.
Ok, this really rubs me wrong – and while CJ “gets” to run away from people at CLC who might ask the tough questions, hold him accountable, he’s going to get “cared for” by his very good friend and mentor, and most likely the body. Abused were left without resources/shelter/$$, abandoned, and NO ONE cared for them.
Very side note: in the previous post someone mentioned that a colonel in the Marine Corps is the same as a general. A colonel in Marine Corps is 0-6 (equivalent to a Navy or Coast Guard captain) and there are 4 more ranks above colonel: 0-7 through 0-10 are the rankings for generals or admirals (name changes depending on the branch of service). You can see a chart that compares officer ranks here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_%28United_States%29
signed, former Naval officer’s wife
So is CJ divorcing the church now?
;-)
Sorry, couldn’t resist. Anyone who has been around SGM long enough will know what I am talking about.
CJ doesn’t attend CLC while a “taking a step back”. He attends elsewhere. Preaching while “taking a step back”. And not even in this country. And his “pastors” don’t agree with either. Talk about running… Do the CLC pastors have control of his salary? His salary should be frozen. Don’t forget one of the guys on the SGM board (the infamous Gary Ricucci of “self induced poverty fame”) is his bro-in-law. You know for sure he’s not gonna buck him in either case. CJ’s office should be cleaned out while he is gone and shipped to Mark Dever’s. That way he can have all of his materials while he is “under his care”.
@Stunned… lol, didn’t CJ write a book or article a looooong time ago with the title Stop Dating the Church? Seems like CJ doesn’t drink his own kool Aid. :koolaid
1. To whom is CJ accountable? CLC has little to say about it, it appears. CLC is “told” how things will be. That’s how it appears.
2. Notice, from Mr. Detwiler below. A problem in a Philadelphia church, yet, if Brent is believed, an email was sent to the world of SGM Pastors. “All the pastors in Sovereign Grace Ministries” about problems in one local church? Were the other churches involved? Did every SGM Pastor need to know? Is Mr. Detwiler correct here? If Mr. Detwiler is correct, this is a widespread dissemination to those not needing to know.
————-
On Sunday morning, March 17, 2002, C.J. wrote the following to all the pastors in Sovereign Grace Ministries regarding the senior pastor in our Philadelphia church and his need to step down. It is one of many examples that could be put forth.
“I type this e-mail with great sadness for I must inform you that is has become necessary for Bill to step down from pastoral ministry….
An announcement ofthis nature should sober and provoke each of us as we travel to the Leaders
Conference. May we arrive at this year’s conference more attentive andresponsive to God’s word, more humble and teachable. Bill righty states in his confession that this day was avoidable not inevitable. Recognizing that the seeof every known sin resides in our heart let us purpose to identify and mortifyall known sin. Let there be no secret sin in our lives. Let us be specific withthose we are accountable to about our sin and current temptations so that wewill not one day have to stand before the church and make a similar confession as Bill will make today.”
It is always about “me, me, me, me”, isn’t it? So, don’t worry folks, he is being “cared” for by his good friend Mark. Even though other disciplined pastors had to slog it out in the church where they were disciplined.
“It is good to be king”
But exporting SGM tactics to Cuba? Like they need more authoritarian legalism there.
Actually, we had seeker stuff going one there there, so I can’t pontificate too much. (sad face) But I was never sure if they were rice Christians or not.
Tiny little correction- though Bill, mentioned in the post above, was at one point the senior pastor of Covenant Fellowship, by the time 2002 rolled around, he was not a senior pastor any longer. He was a regular pastor. (OK, I am sure he had a title that wasn’t “regular” but I can’t think of what his title was.)
Matt said:
Haha, Matt, you’re pretty cool. I always look forward to reading your posts when I get on here. :lol:
This goes to the point of hypocrisy more largely. Kris’s post is more narrowly tailored to a specific point of hypocrisy–CJ’s “leave of absence” while “ministering” in Cuba, as something inconsistent with other SGM Pastors who stood down. While Kris’s note is narrowly tailored, there is a “charlie horse” between the ears.
Let me get this right re: the Detwiler post in #7. Help, if there are factual errors here. Here’s the understanding.
(1) A Philadelphia Pastor has a problem in 2002. (2) Let’s assume that there are 50 SGM churches in 2002 over which CJ and Brent exercise leadership. (3) SGM apparently steps in–over problems–and relieves the Philadelphia Pastor. (4) Yet, CJ sends a SGM-wide email to 50–assuming 50–SGM Pastors about “Bill” in Philadelphia. Did the 49 other SGM Pastors need to know this? (5) Then, we hear complaints about “public documents” from Mr. Brentwiler crafted and delivered privately over 18 months? Am I alone is smelling the hypocrisy here? (Not to detract from Kris’s main point.)
Is the above a correct factual pattern?
One thing to remember – AFAIK, CJ is not under any kind of church discipline, making his situation different than the pastors who were degifted, dismembered and otherwise mutilated under his authority. His exile is self-imposed, a “season of reflection”, a paid vacation, perhaps a “three hour tour” in the Gilligan’s Island sense. Forgive my wishful thinking. He is voluntarily seeking out the counsel of others, but he is not subject either to them or their counsel. He has no obligation to modify his schedule, cut back on his speaking engagements, attend or not attend church where he wants – at least as far as his relationship to SGM is concerned. Correct me if I’m wrong, but in a technical sense, it’s not that the rules have changed – CJ’s situation IS different and therefore the same rules just don’t apply. Not that they shouldn’t – they just don’t. An argument that could be made is if SGM rules require their apostle-level folk to attend an SGM church regularly – but the SGM board has already given CJ a pass on that one. I’m tempted to say “don’t blame the rabbit for running away because the kids let him out of the cage.” Oh, I guess I did…
With respect to CJ’s relationship to CLC, where I understand he is a member, I presume the situation should be addressed in some way by CLC’s membership covenant. If a CLC member fails to attend services at CLC for a period of time, what are the rules and consequences involved? Don’t know, just asking.
“Oh, I guess I did…
With respect to CJ’s relationship to CLC, where I understand he is a member, I presume the situation should be addressed in some way by CLC’s membership covenant.”
Ok, now here is another question. Is CJ a member of CLC now? Right this moment? And if the answer is yes, is he in good standing according to CLC and their member covenant? Josh? Greg? Anyone?
Bueller?
How does one usually go about not being a member, voluntarily? Do they send a letter, tell someone in power, ‘take me off the rolls please’, call the church secretary?
And, if CJ is still a member and his son in laws have resigned, then what does that mean?
CJ is sure being cryptic and ignoring all his own rules.
Obviously, CLC is not going to disfellowship CJ like they have others. Why not? He is breaking the very rules he put in place. Josh, can you explain that?
So, do we have more than one instance of hypocrisy concerning church membership and discipline?
Perhaps CJ will tell us where his “membership” resides as of today. CHBC or CLC?
And he is not allowed to use the word “care” or “serve” when he answers. :o)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/59523000/Part-1-Response-Regarding-Friendship-Doctrine p.3.
Concerning “hypocrisy,” Mr. Detwiler writes below. The context is an email from CJ to Detwiler and his [CJ’s] “recent” discovery of learning that Mr. Detwiler had issues with CJ. The date is Jan 2010. Yet, Mr. Detwiler claims explosively that the troubles existed over years and were well known to CJ, not something of “recent” vintage as CJ dismissively claims. Here’s a quote from Mr. Detwiler re: hypocrisy. Hypocrisy and double-standards are one of several claims by Mr. Detwiler. Here’s Mr. Detwiler’s sense of it.
“Lastly and most importantly, I write because of my deep love for you and for Sovereign Grace Ministries. My greatest concern is for the increasing presence of deceit and hypocrisy rooted in self preservation and love of reputation.”
Here is CJ trying to avoid Koolaid of his own making.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNHBUqfLnM&feature=related
Little bald man is our ceejaaay
For the sake of argument, let’s say that the parachurch organization in question wasn’t SGM HQ. So as not to draw the ire of any particular organization, let’s call it Overseas Missionary Sending Org A (OMSOA). Suppose you have the president of OMSOA in your SGM-affiliated congregation and, via public dissemination of information, allegations and assertions come to light that involve both known and potential sin. Let’s also say — as is being said in the SGM situation — that the allegations and assertions in the main have to do with the president’s leadership of OMSOA. In this example, would the pastoral team of an SGM-affiliated church traditionally have waited for OMSOA to do its own due diligence before exploring or engaging in church discipline, or would church discipline have been initiated in tandem with OMSOA’s own investigation?
It’s interesting to note that the April/May 2011 issue of IX Marks’ e-journal (Capitol Hill Baptist Church) was about parachurch organizations and church discipline. From Jonathan Leeman’s article, “How Church Discipline Will Save the Parachurch” (http://www.9marks.org/ejournal/how-church-discipline-will-save-parachurch).
I think what breaks my heart, is that people love this man and his family! Period. I mean these were the people that were prepared to not read the Brent docs if CLC said not, they were willing to come on here and defend him, and they were already inclined in their hearts to believe this was a personal issue between him and Brent and forgive him for his part.
How could he take that sacred trust and love and just trash it for his own arrogant belief about the way he thought he should be treated and his sins presented to the congregation?
Fried Fish,
Actually, a number of the de-gifted, dis-enfranchised, no longer sufficiently “on-board” pastors that have left SGM pastoral roles were NOT under church discipline, but were still expected to undergo an extended, in house evaluation process as they were leaving the pastoral team or even outright leaving the church.
Some have been threatened that they would not be spoken of well or acknowledged for their previous service if they did not “humbly” submit to this process from the very men whose practices, character, lack of integrity, etc. was removing them from ministry or causing them to leave by their own conscientious choice.
In other words, men who were NOT under church discipline or even accused of sin or failure, have frequently NOT been given the “CJ option” to reject the leaders over them and buddy up with their favorite pastor friend, in a church they like across town.
Mr. Detwiler, again, p.4, concerning a 1982-1997 period. This goes to Kris’s point re: CJ’s withdrawal from CLC (and hypocrisy). However, Detwiler gives another angle on the withdrawal and speaks of a more general pattern by CJ. I wish there was rigorous cross-examination of Brent. Brent speaks of having kept detailed notes and works from 100s of documents. Brent offered for mediation with CJ by way of digitalized video and written records. Brent says, rightly or wrongly:
“Little did I know I would continue to play this role from 1982 until 1997 when Larry left the movement. During this time period, I learned a lot about you and not just in relation to Larry. It included many different people and contexts. I discovered you were most tempted when you felt sinned against, judged or misrepresented. This often led to bitterness, anger, sinful judgments, distrust, and relational withdrawal.”
I mentioned this in the previous post, but something I’m thinking most current SGMers probably won’t realize is how very different SGM’s concept of “care” is, compared to what might take place in the rest of “normal” Christianity.
There are some very specific ideas that SGMers have when they hear the word “care” in the context of a “season of reflection” like the one CJ is supposedly in the midst of. In SGM, “care” in a situation like CJ’s – where a member has admitted wrongdoing – is something that would flow from the member’s authority figure downward to the member (who has less authority). The authority figure is free to quiz the more lowly member and challenge the member about his sins and shortcomings.
The really important thing to keep in mind is that this “care” would NOT be an exchange between equals.
If you stop and think about it, this is really one of the most incriminating aspects of CJ’s situation, that CJ apparently feels the need to step outside his own organization to find someone who he thinks can provide him with good “care”. Basically, what he is saying to the people at CLC is that there is nobody within his own church who can challenge him.
But for the record, no matter how authoritarian Mark Dever might be, and no matter how influenced by SGM, I’m guessing that Capitol Hill Baptist does NOT hold to SGM’s specific ideas about “care.” If anything, CJ and Carolyn will be admired and fawned over by the Capitol Hill folks, and if Dever opens up his busy schedule to get in CJ’s face in the manner to which ordinary members of SGM churches are accustomed, it won’t happen much.
I’m new here, been reading for several weeks now. Member of Covenant Fellowship Church for several years.
I agree with FF at #12 re; CJ’s leave.
Also, Andrew, at the SGM Plant and Build blog has stated many times in his replies to questioners that SGM and CLC have agreed that CJ’s situation should be handled by SGM and not CLC and thereby, he does not even come under the Matt 18 procedure of being held accountable by a church, per Andrew.
At CovFel, ‘Bill’ is still a faithful attender and leader of some prayer groups on Sundays, etc. I was there when he ‘stepped down’, but I have no idea what his ‘sin’ was/is,(he didn’t say) but I know many people love him and wish he was still a pastor. I was new there at the time.
Totally off topic; Dave Harvey’s son, Tyler is/has recently served with the Army in Afghanistan.
Howdy Oswald…
Welcome to the fray ;)
Kris, you speak of the SGM concept of “care” Speaking of “care,” here’s Brent’s review of CJ’s reactions in 2000-2003 to attempts at “care.” Hypocrisy, again, comes to mind. That is, CJ is his own standard while others submit to CJ’s standards “of care.” This is Mr. Detwiler’s history. (I assume the reference below is to Dave Harvey and Steve Shank.)
————–
“Fast forward. During a team meeting on December 4, 2000, Dave, Steve and I began to raise issues of concern for you. For example, we pointed out you were often difficult to correct, became offended when you felt misunderstood or judged by others, quickly and hastily arrived at conclusions about people based on limited information, came to extreme conclusions about people in a presumptive and premature fashion, were stubborn when you thought God had spoken to you or you had a strong opinion about something, made decisions without adequate appreciation for the personal effect on others, and led the apostolic team more by expedience rather than by process. We also noted a lack of discussion and involvement as a team in decision making. These things didn‘t happen all the time but tended to be general patterns. For the next three years, I led a process whereby we consistently tried to help you see these and other issues of character. Unfortunately, that lengthy process proved unsuccessful. During 2003 our appeals to you intensified. For instance, Dave met with you in Baltimore on April 24 and covered numerous concerns. We took the next team meeting on May 13 to follow up with you. We talked about ―silencing mechanism you tended to use when someone like Dave attempted to bring you correction (i.e., how you could be exacting and take offense, judge, mistrust or adjust a person if they didn‘t have the right attitude and use the right words or illustrations when bringing correction to you).We talked about whether or not you viewed the apostolic team as a venue for confession because we did not know where you struggled with sin and whether you were growing or being evaluated. We also reminded you that the absence of confession was raised 1½ years earlier at Celebration United Kingdom. At that time, you promised to talk about the confession of sin to us as a team. You never did.
During the May 13 team meeting, I pointed out how this was―uncharitable and irresponsible.You asked our forgiveness for not getting back to us but we never talked about the lack of transparency in the ensuing months.”
Re: Kris #20; CJ’s stepping outside his own organization; I wonder if he will soon/eventually step out completely, like the SIL’s and thereby avoid the whole evaluation process. I know others here have suggested this.
OK, maybe CJ is in hot water and being held accountable by the guys on the SGM board rather than his CLC pastors. Maybe this is a Corporate issue and not a CLC issue.
But what does it say that in the midst of what is arguably the biggest crisis of CJ Mahaney’s career, he has to turn to a church outside the
denominationfamily of churches he created to receive “care”?Whether CJ is under church discipline yet or not (and I think it’s been established that he is not, despite his initial admission of wrongdoing), it’s hugely telling that he feels “better served” by a non-SGM church. After all those decades of teachings about the vital importance of one’s own personal commitment to a “local church,” where leaving one’s local church is equivalent to getting a divorce, CJ is showing people that he himself does not have that sort of relationship with a “local” church.
Through this action of going to Capitol Hill Baptist, CJ himself is validating one of Brent’s main assertions, which is that CJ has no accountability with a local church.
I know Bill. He loves the Lord and did not deserve the treatment he received. CJ has done far worse. Bill’s sin? A wayward son. So they removed him. Are you kidding me? Cold and in light of this post, hypocritical. These guys have no shame. . .
I think seej oughtta serve his discipline here 8)
Alpologist, take a look at #7 and #11. (1) Bill in Phila has an issue with a son and must step down. (2) Yet, notice, if Brent is correct, that CJ sends an email “to all SGM Pastors.” All pastors? Did “all” the SGM Pastors need to know about this? My question is for Brent. Is that factual, “all pastors” were informed? (3) Yet, there are complaints about public documents? Kris has pointed at one angle on hypocrisy. I’m coming from another angle. Is it so that “all” SGM-Pastors were alerted about Bill’s sin? There is something that is destructive in that–hubris. Somebody say it ain’t so.
C.J.’s actions appear to be a repudiation of everything IX Marks teaches. The idea of healing outside of CLC would make good sense except for the letters his sons-in-law wrote and except for CJ being at a conference in the Dominican Republic.
Bill P. was no boyscout…he could be very hasrh in demeanor and tone, not saying he deserved to be french fried publicly-but that is what SGM preaches and teaches, and Bill P. is the poster boy-having been removed from his pastoral duties twice in SGM.
@In Adullam’s Cave #18 –
Thanks for that additional info, and it’s a travesty that pastors can be removed and disciplined, even if not under discipline and with no due process. But since CJ hasn’t been removed or asked to step down by his board (if indeed they have the authority to do so), I stick by my original statement that the same rules don’t apply. Again, not saying they shouldn’t, but they don’t.
Not to steal away the spotlight from CJ and his lovey Vay-Cay/time in the spotlight, but….
Can someone in the know with ExClcer and ExclcersMom story confrim that
Mr. A = Mr. Adams?
And that his band is the Flower Hill Blue Grass Band?
This band usually plays at Montgomery County Agricultural Fair, going on now…
And who exactly his his pastor? (I read it a while back but forget)
Thanks for the confirmation/clarification.
Kris you said, “maybe CJ is in hot water and being held accountable by the guys on the SGM board rather than his CLC pastors”
That makes me laugh! We can see throughout Brent’s documents how the SGM board has held him accountable – NOT. And now they are allowing him to go to a non-SGM church and preach at an international conference?! Sounds like he’s still calling the shots to me – and the board is still following the leader.
yellow –
yes,
yes,
and yes, :x
and I dont know.
Matt #13 –
Matt, that is so totally unfair. The poor man really wouldn’t be able to defend himself. :D
Guy? #27?
:::::::::snort::::::::
:amen
CJ said: //I want to continue to take advantage of our friendship //
Uhh, better run, Mark Dever! (I’m sure CJ doesn’t necessarily mean it the way it sounds, but what a weird choice of words, anyway.)
As I read through his letter, all I see is how much CJ wants for HIMSELF: care, counsel, support, prayers. Where is his expressed desire for these same things for “the people of our churches for whom I have the deepest affection”?
Not ONCE does he say “I’m praying for the people of SGM” or that they would receive care or counsel or support or prayers during this time of upheaval for THEM. I see a man who truly believes this is all — and only — about him. Actually, that phrase I quoted is the only time he even mentions “the people” or his relationship with them. Any other mention of his service in the letter relates to SGM, NOT “the people.”
Serving the organization, CJ, is not the same as serving the people.
Bleah.
Regarding the concept of “care,” we get another view of CJ’s one-sided and unilateral view of “care.” Matt, this goes to your comment about “serve” and “care.” As to the term “serve,” this gives a picture of how CJ “served” his SGM board members–one way. Again, this is Mr. Detwiler who, himself, needs cross-examination, or better, direct rebuttal from CJ. Brent has long desired rebuttal (in writing too). Adullum, this goes to your point about “two standards,” or, in other words, “double standards.” It also goes to Kris’s point about “hypocrisy.” Here’s Brent, again:
“We also asked if the CLC pastors were speaking into your life. You assured us they were. (Later we discovered this was untrue. They were providing very little input.) If true, we asked why we were not updated on the team level. We talked about the disconnect between us being evaluated by you, but you not being evaluated by us. We also talked about other issues and examples but I have not included them here.”
#27 — Wouldn’t that be special!!
:clap
Donald, I don’t think there is a standard practice. Pastor Ken (forget his last name) tells the story of his wayward son Jared (now pastor at covfel) and how he went to Dave Harvey and was going to step down when he was having problems with Jared and Dave told him not to step down.
Interestingly, the story told to new folk like me when I first started attending SGM was that Bill stepped down voluntarily.
Donald it is a total train wreck once the light shines behind the facade.
I wish Bill Patton could at least lead worship again. He was an amazing worship leader.
Jared, are you reading? How about some Bill P. up on stage? Let bygones be bygones. He has a God-given gift that should be used. How about Alan Redrup doing a little preaching while we’re at it? :-) He was gifted also.
Anybody else with me to get Bill back up there?
Let’s revisit Mohler’s words to reporter Peter King at the Courier Journal just a few days after Mahaney stepped down (How would the reporter have known this?) and see if they don’t match what we see as the “endgame” happening now:
“I always have had only the highest estimation of C.J. Mahaney as a man and a minister,” Mohler said in an interview — his first public comments on the situation involving Mahaney, one of his fellow leaders in the Reformed, neo-Calvinist movement. “That continues absolutely unchanged. There is nothing in this current situation which would leave me to have even the slightest pause of confidence in him.”
Mohler said he believes Mahaney and the Sovereign Grace board are being prudent in planning an independent investigation from people outside the denomination to make sure those involved are above reproach. (From Matt: Mohler also advocates LOCAL church discipline)
“There is nothing disqualifying in terms of anything that is disclosed in this,” said Mohler, who regularly speaks on programs along with Mahaney. “It’s just evidence we knew all along, that C.J. is human but a deeply committed Christian and a visionary Christian leader.”
Mohler said he saw no reason for Mahaney to take a leave from other leadership positions. (From Matt: Clearance to do speaking gigs during this “time of reflection”)
“I assume he would retain every position in leadership,” Mohler said. “I expect he should be very quickly returned to leadership of Sovereign Grace.” (From Matt: This is all just an exercise in public relations)
Mohler contended that Detwiler has “an obvious vendetta” against Mahaney and attributed the document dump on the Internet to him. (From Matt: They desperately want this to be about Brent)
Mohler added: “Any time you’re going to take on the role of leadership, you’re going to have critics.” (From Matt: We are critisized which only means we are being persecuted so we must be right)
Mohler also supported Sovereign Grace’s highly centralized leadership structure in its churches, with “very strong pastoral direction” and internal discipline. (From Matt: Take note SBC which has always stood for the Priesthood and soul freedom)
“It’s something clearly called for in the New Testament,” he said. (From Matt: yeah, right inbetween all the “one anothers” and don’t lord it over like the Gentiles do and all the other ones about the first being the last, lowly servants, etc)
Mohler said he knew this practice has had online critics for years. (From Matt: cryptic reference to blogs)
“Basically there are people who are very uncomfortable with the strong kind of spiritual direction that comes through the Sovereign Grace Ministries,” Mohler said. “It’s very hard to criticize it on biblical terms, as you’ll see on most of those Web sites. It basically comes down to the criticism, ‘I don’t like that.’”
See, this was all planned to give Mahaney cover for every single decision we have seen made so far. Mohler knew the endgame before CLC did.
Here is the link
http://blogs.courier-journal.com/faith/2011/07/12/mohler-backs-mahaney-dismisses-accusations-of-abusive-leadership/
BTW: the SBC needs to censor Mohler over this.He is a paid employee of the SBC.
I’m new here, long time lurker (not ashamed), not a CLCER, SGM Down south. I am disappointed to say the least with my SGM local church response. There have been 4 pastors, de-gifted? / stepped down?, in the last 4 years alone? That is a pretty high number. From the Finance Team, I have heard that CJ gets thousands of dollars when he comes to speak at our local church. Of course never been shared with the congregation. Also here is what was told to the Care Group Leaders recently about CJ..
Col DPV —
I think it is time that you to contact and talk with Brent directly.
BTW – my dad is retired AF (Col) – I think you guys would hit it off. He was part of the CINCLANT Joint Chief of Staffs when he retired in 72.
Appreciate your comments! Wouldn’t mind speaking offline with you sometime if you are so inclined!
Irv
Formerly USAF Ssgt Irv, (4 years and out)
Irv:
1. I’d just prefer to be called Donald or Don. Copy on CINLANTFLT JCS. Been awhile since CINCLANTFLT though.
2. I need to really digest Brent’s documents again. It would be interesting to talk to him and would be willing. But eegads, the historian of details has done “fact sniffing” for so long, one needs to master the details. It’s a 521-page set of well written points–from his 100s of pages of notes, emails, and documents. Brent is no slouch.
3. Yes, willing to talk offline anytime. 910-229-7914, generally 1100 to 2200 EST. I like get up late, mozy around, and have coffee with my wife in the morning. Otherwise, am free. Give me a call anytime.
Regards.
Season…
Nothing is showing on your latest comment…not sure if you are trying to upload an attachment or what. Any issues, just email me
Oswald,
Welcome here, I mentioned Tyler’s service about 6 weeks or so when we were discussing (rather ot) those of us who have loved ones in harm’s way. I am indebted to Tyler’s service and have been prying for him and the others who are heros.
I remember Bill Patton similarly to Musicman. He was certainly not perfect but I don’t believe he did anything to rise to the occasion of being removed from his position.
A question, why isn’t CovFel trying to reconcile with the people that were hurt and mistreated at their church?
There seems to be a trend that includes local churches acknowledging mismanagement of circumstances and at least a nominal attempt to make things right?
Stunned?
Musicman?
Anyone?
Why? It isn’t as though nothing happened there, in fact, from what I understand, it had the reputation of having one of the more draconian…um….aggressiely authoritarian approaches in the SGM system.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
I’ve known both Bill Patton and Dave Harvey for the better part of my life and, considering C.J. and Dave’s treatment of Bill, they should both personally apologize to Bill. Bill’s oldest son is a SGM senior pastor in DE. and his “wayward” younger son is also walking with the Lord. Those of us who have been around for many years can see right through all this nonsense.
How can a person take a leave of absence from ministry while “ministering” in the Caribbean?? How audacious and brazen! This is condescending to any sense of integrity before God! He also insults the intelligence of the people he “serves.” No thanks, Dave and C.J., you can stop “serving” me now. My trust has been shattered…and you cannot lead people who no longer trust you.
Just throwing this out there. If you think about it, CJ hasn’t really attended CLC consistently for years. His travel schedule prevents it. What is it, 70-90 travel days a year? Not asserting any conclusion on what I think about that, but just thought I’d throw that into the mix…
Brent is seeking “to serve” CJ by evaluation as per below. Brent’s seeking this “service” from CLC Pastors who can, by turns, “serve” CJ re: his strengths and weaknesses. The date is 16-18 Dec 2003. Can anyone smell an explosion to be? From one-way CJ? Here’s Brent.
“―In preparation for our team retreat on December 16-18 we‘d like to ask for your help in providing us an evaluation of C.J. In some respects, you relate and work more closely with him then we do. Therefore, we look forward to your feedback on ways you feel he can grow and ways you feel he excels. Please feel free to provide additional written explanations for your answers pertaining to both his strengths and weaknesses. Also, if you wish, please add any additional comments that are relevant but not addressed on the form. Either Steve, Dave or I will try to get back to you by phone during the week of December 9-12 with clarifying questions we may have. Therefore, could you please send us this completed evaluation by the end of the day on Friday, December 5? Thanks so very much brothers for serving us and C.J. in this way.”
BTW: Bill Patton is a gracious and godly gentleman and Covenant Fellowship should be hearing a seasoned, wise man like this from the pulpit.
Season,
As a down souther, I am dying to know what was said to cg leaders…don’t know if we are from the same church, but I am so disappointed in mine. Not in the inner circle, but please enlighten :)
Here is what was said… hope it works this time!
“We also wanted you to know that in light of the dialogue from Sunday’s meeting, we have concluded that it would be best to give more time for building faith before we have C.J. come to to preach. Thank you for your honest input that equipped us to make a well-informed decision.
C.J. is a man we have all benefited from, and whom we believe would bless the church greatly when he visits again. We look forward to the work of building faith for such a visit, and celebrating the power of the Gospel to redeem.”
“We also asked if the CLC pastors were speaking into your life.”
Exactly how does one do this?
Sounds like it might involve crystals and chanting.
Bring Bill Patton back as a worship leader – yay!!!
@Matt, am starting to sense the SGM-lingo, e.g. “serve.” E.g., “You’re being `served’ your papers” said the county Sheriff. “Here, you’re being “served” notice of an IRS audit,” said the IRS commissioner. “You’ll ‘serve’ 4 months in jail,” decreed the Judge.
@Seasonofevaluation, interesting post from your church leadership. I note that Brent’s first document has 22,469 hits as of today. Some folks are reading them. They warrant reading, rebuttal where needed, and thought.
Josh and all CLC pastors,
Check out what Jewel said in a previous post about Wycliff and how they handle sexual preditors like Mr. Adams. Why not fly some of those folks in to give a couple day training on how to handle sexual preditors in the church. What Wycliff does shows great respect to the victims, and also respect for the perp. and his family.
Then bring these guys back to teach at the Pastors College, because they seem to have wisdom in this area.
Wycliff would be willing to share with you, I bet.
Donald, you keep posting your thoughtful perspectives! Don’t let a meanie or two stop you from making your contributions here. :D
ExClcer, I thought of you as I saw the Redskins pic on the front page of the paper today. At least THAT organization is up to good things! :D
Yellow –
It’s the Flower Hill String Band – complete Facebook page online for the band and yes pictured in the photo’s is GS’s son playing in the band. Online there is 100% proof that Greg S. must know Mr Adams very very well, they have a gig frequently, schedule all online….but let’s hold off on specualting what Greg’s intentions are….he obviously is friends with David, and maybe he truly has found out new information, or a different twist, from these blogs and exCLCers story, and truly he could be heartbroken hearing details he never knew? I am sure Gary and John, if they did discuss any details of this scenario years ago, spun it all in a different light. Truly this blog may have presented an entiely different view to Greg, and being with friends with David, he may have a very intense desire to discover the truth….which he knows will only come from meeting with ExCLCer and Mom.
ExCLCer’s mom I will pray for you that God will show you what to do? It’s possible that God could be bringing truth to a pastor (Greg), and maybe this is another step in God shedding light on CLC/SGM – Maybe God has given Greg has an open heart to hear and understand, maybe this is also of God?
First time here. Member of CLC. When this first broke my DH asked “So what are we going to do?” (meaning are we going to stay or leave) my response was “Well, Joshua not CJ is my pastor. It is going to depend on what he does.” So far so good.
Obviously CJ just doesn’t “get it.” I am tired of all of this! I trusted this man. I believed he was a man of integrity. Now he leaves the what he has called “the dearest church on earth”, “the people he loves most” and his “Favorite Senior Pastor” who now has to lead with crickets chirping in the front row where the Mahaney’s used to sit. I thought we were a family, that family’s work out problems together. There have been other occasions when people have gotten into big embarrassing situations) and sin, legal problems, (nationally reported and blogged about) jail time (not speaking of “Mr. A” but others) They stayed, they worked through it and walked in humility and are respected members of the church. Where is CJ? Hiding. Don’t you think others wanted to hide when their sin became public? Of course but they didn’t.
The Mahaney boys would not have left without Daddy’s permission. I am praying for them and their families. With their departure I do not believe the Mahaney’s have any intention of returning. I (sort of) hope I am wrong.
Hey, D. Phillip Veitch(your old FB moniker) When are you getting your own blog? Nine posts in 3.5 hours is that a record for you? Do you just like the sound of your own typing? I also was a FB friend like Still@CLC4now. I also deleted you when I got tired of scrolling through dozens of your posts every day. Obviously you found a new forum. You had collected thousands of friends What happened? I looked for you on FB and couldn’t find you.
@seasonofevaluation #53: VERY interesting news .. are you saying that you attend a SGM church in the south; (are you a care group leader?); and are you saying your pastors decided NOT to have CJ come preach [presumably he was scheduled to stop by, maybe on his way back from Cuba?]
If so, I think that is HUGE! A SGM church cancelling a CJ-preaching date because of this scandal. Well done pastors of this unknown SGM church in the south…good for evaluating the situation and coming to your own convictions about them and making a [hard] decision. :clap
@60 – you have misinterpreted… The church has lost members and would continue to do so if he came so soon. The CGL expressed that to the pastors. The pastors decided to wait and “build faith” for the return of CJ. Its still gonna happen. CJ and the senior pastor are close. Too close for the pastor to see the issues objectively.
And just to clarify what I meant by “its still gonna happen”, I meant its still gonna happen, just later than sooner.
OOOPs my mistake. I guess in the time it takes me to type one post D. Phillip was able to post two more tines. That is eleven posts in four hours.
Thanks Yellow. We’ve spoken of “hypocrisy” through the evening and the posts. It appears that CJ played by another set of rules for a long, long time without accountability, as he advocated. This appears to be an autocrat living by his own rules without Elders or Oversight. So much for the Church. I wonder what Dr. Dever would make of all this. This exchange is from Mr. Detwiler is 12 Dec 2003. Detwiler’s departure or eviction was in the making by the beginning of 2004. Can one say, “Inbound rounds are coming!” It was a matter of time. He hung on till Jun 2009.
————–
Kenneth‘s Evaluation
“I received Kenneth‘s evaluation on December 12. He wrote the following,
‘I‘m not aware of correction he is receiving from others. [He] seeks input on selected topicsduring our monthly accountability times [which just began due to our correction]. [But] not from me in family/married life. Maybe others.’
I followed up with a phone call that afternoon. Here are some of the notes from myconversation with Kenneth. I sent them to you, Dave and Steve at the time.
–When correcting C.J. you have to be real precise for him to receive.
–This can be hard for men to do who are less gifted than C.J.
–Should be easier to bring things to him.
–Needs to grow in learning to listen carefully even if he thinks the person‘s perspective is wrong.
–Needs to listen when person is conveying a sense of something that is wrong buthaving a hard time being precise.
–Can exhibit a quickness and strength of response.
–Kenneth and Josh show a sense of deference [to C.J.] in their hearts but don‘t press issues.
–Neither Josh nor Kenneth raises these kinds of issues with C.J. That is, whether he receives correction humbly and is easy to confront or responds gently and kindly,not abruptly or harshly, when disagreeing with someone.
–C.J. not making aware of input from others, e.g., CLC pastors, apostolic team, Carolyn.
–Don‘t know if he is receiving correction.
–Kenneth assumes no one is bringing correction or things to him.
–Occasionally asks for input on parenting issues. Nothing on marriage.
–Input resolves around the effect of schedule or work around the home.
————
Grant‘s Evaluation
On December 13, Grant wrote the following in his evaluation,
`My primary concern for C.J. would be in the area of who is supposed to be caring for him? Perhaps this is taking place with you men on the apostolic team? We have tried numerous times to gettogether here over the past year but have not been able to make it happen. So care for he and Carolyn is not happening here unless there is something I am unaware of.’
That afternoon I followed up with a phone call. Here are some of the notes from my conversation with Grant. I sent them to you, Dave and Steve at the time.
–Can be in a meeting talking about a situation that C.J. is not involved in and he will hear some facts and be tempted to make conclusions or assumptions.
–At times C.J. can too quickly come to a conclusion without knowing all the facts, prematurely coming to conclusions or making assumptions.
–Grant is not aware of any correction C.J. is receiving from the apostolic team orothers. This issue has always been ongoing concern for C.J.
–Grant has raised his ongoing concern over the years that C.J. receives pastoral care.
–Grant is not aware of anyone raising any issues or concerns with C.J. in private.
–Grant believes they have a very limited view of what is going on in his life, a narrow window to look through, and limited opportunity for observation of C.J.
–Over past year, correction of C.J. and confession by C.J. has not happened at all there is no context for this to happen.
–Grant has assumed it is happening with the apostolic team.
–Thinks C.J.‘s self assessment may be such that he and Carolyn just don‘t require input.
Yellow said: “Check out what Jewel said in a previous post about Wycliff and how they handle sexual preditors like Mr. Adams. Why not fly some of those folks in to give a couple day training on how to handle sexual preditors in the church. What Wycliff does shows great respect to the victims, and also respect for the perp. and his family.”
The post you are referring to is #289 (A Message To SGM Survivors From GS And Covenant Life Church Pastors). I do sincerely hope that Josh, CLC pastors or SGM pastors read it – that was my heart’s intent.
I failed to mention that Wycliffe investigators contacted every known church while this pedophile was an adult to gather his history and to see what knowledge they had on him as well as references, old friends/acquaintances. That was very eye-opening. In addition, they also met with his current pastor(s) to discuss the case and work out a plan to have him in church safely (ie, must always have an escort to the bathroom, always with an assigned accountability partner when around children).
I don’t know how Wycliffe got to the place to be so effective in dealing with this sex abuse cases, but it was clear that this was not the first time as they have a staff set up precisely for this purpose. I wonder if they would be willing to train others. It would be interesting to find out.
More from Mr. Detwiler. Some CLC Pastors had issues with CJ for a long time. Presently, when CJ says he’s leaving CLC for another church, he has no accountability. Whatever he taught about accountability groups appears to be another expression of historic hypocrisy. Grant, Kenneth, and Joshua have been in this for quite some time. Brent had a front-row seat and was ahead of the power curve. Brent wrote and sent this to CJ months and months ago. The personal pronoun, “you,” is Brent addressing CJ. (Jim posted earlier that CJ’s reign is over, but he’ll return to SGM with fewer salutes–that’s a thought-worthy proposition.)
——————————–
“C.J. Not Transparent with Pastors at Covenant Life Church
I also talked to Joshua on December 14. His comments echoed Grant‘s and Kenneth‘s. He shared different examples of self righteousness, sinful judgments, and pride in your [CJ’s] life. For example, the difficulty he had in talking with you about starting two services at Covenant Life Church. After talking to Joshua, Kenneth and Grant; I wrote you, Dave and Steve the following.
`―In my opinion, we should take some time at the [upcoming team] retreat to hear C.J.‘s thoughts on the evaluations and talk about a strategy that ensures he is receiving proper care and input from the men at Covenant Life (i.e., primarily Josh, Kenneth, Grant). In this regard, I think it may serve them to be made aware of the issues we have been talking about with C.J. and the observations we have provided him.'”
In his last post, @Donald wrote, “It appears that CJ played by another set of rules for a long, long time without accountability, as he advocated. This appears to be an autocrat living by his own rules without Elders or Oversight. So much for the Church.”
Guy, can we get an icon that has the “I could have had a V8” guy on it? Or maybe a lightbulb over someone’s head? A timely revelation like this one deserves acknowledgment.
Res..good idea. I wil poke around for one
:idea:
Res..you could always use this one
:I-got-an-idea:
Or this (ok…i’m done)
Or this for DPV
:Yes-Sir:
(ok..really done now)
Donald,
No one is trying to beat you up here, but you don’t seem to understand that you are starting from scratch trying to understand SGM in a way that hundreds or thousands of others have been grasping for years. I know you think you are making big revelations and insights, but you are only saying in simplistic, uninformed ways what most folks here have understood for a long time (even new folks would figure it out if they read a few stories, etc.)
It is getting very hard to have a flow of posts turn into meaningful blog-conversation when you put dozens of posts up every day, stating in long-winded, high-brow language what most people already understand.
You don’t seem too daunted by a number of folks expressing this concern, so I doubt my thoughts will affect you either, but a few more of your numbered lists of “old news” material and everyone else will be the ones yelling “egads” and wanting to share pointed “to wits” with you.
Don’t mean to be disagreeable, but I think it would be helpful to everyone here if we protected the flow of conversation and slowed down the stuff that is making it hard to even follow along.
If others disagree – that’s fine. Just a thought.
@Adullam, thank you for saying what I simply tried to imply. You’re much more gracious than I am!
@Guy, you just made me laugh out loud! Thank you!!!
Guy and Res, yes, a deepened impression on one of several themes enunciated by 100s here. I’ve heard it before over 1000s of posts and, yep, Brent’s remarks deepened the impression. (I’m on the fourth read of them.) As Oxymadias advised earlier, there are several subsets in the venue.
Speaking of lightbulbs going off, I wonder what the percentage of SGM parishioners nationwide see the disparity between what CJ taught–in terms of accountability and now departure from CLC–and how he lived in relation to SGM itself and CLC? I suppose old timers get it, but there are probably many who haven’t had the full light of disclosure. Mr. Detwiler’s documents just hit the streets in late June.
Alright Adullum, I’ll bow out. My posts have been many and, at times, difficult. I’ve got close to 100 pages of my own notes and observations, given the interest across several disciplines. I’ll post elsewhere. No ill will or hard feelings either. My interest will not be diminished by not posting either. I spent six months studying Benny Hinn, but was diverted by my Father’s death (a scholarly man) and had to live with my Mother for several months. Upon return, the Hinn study atrophied. I intend to study this Detwiler-Mahaney-SGM phenomenon for more months, just not here. Best regards.
Donald, do post! But just keep them succinct and fresh. Few and short would avoid you sharing every thought you’ve had. If you boiled your daily musings down to two paragraphs of fresh insight it would work really well. It would trim the fat from the meat of your thoughts.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Donald!
I’m sure that many would enjoy surveying your thoughts and studies as you explore these things in the weeks and months to come – so be sure to let us all know if you establish a location/blog where you can share the large volume of material that will, no doubt, arise rom that kind of thorough study.
Again, thank you for your warm reply to my direct concerns. It is very much appreciated.
I agree with Joe, Donald.
I don’t think you need to leave these discussions, but Joe’s suggestions, I think, would be very helpful.
In Adullam’s Cave: I’m fairly new to this blog so maybe you could point me to the rule page. I was unaware that those with long-time association with CLC/SGM were permitted to post. Or that there was some rule that content should of interest to only those with such history. Further more, I doubt a Marine war vet is going to be “daunted” by much at all; certainly not by some anonymous blogger.
I was 10 or 11 when what was left of my family left CLC and this subject is one that I haven’t attempted to delve into is 20 some years. A lot of what I “knew” was information obtained from a child’s point of view. MANY of the poster here have provide information or insights that have expanded my understanding of what took place and why. For me that is helpful and healing.
While I am not a “believer”, I am interested in protecting people who may be used or victimized by those is positions of power. Donald seems to have similar motivations. I don’t see why you would consider his posts to be “making it hard to even follow along”. Who are you to judge what is or isn’t worthwhile content? That’s not a rhetorical question. I would actually appreciate an answer. In my readings, there are posts that I skip in interest of time. That’s ok, it’s what the scroll bar and my own judgement is for. Truthfully, I appreciate his excellent grammar and sentence structure. The manner in which he presents information makes it very difficult to misunderstand him. As for his language being “high brow”, please, it’s brow at best (no offense Donald). Which word was so high brow?
Quit judging.
Couple things from waayyy up there:
1. Was Bill P at CLC before going to Cov Fel?
2. Josh wrote a book “Stop Dating the Church.”
I keep thinking about the apology or outreach offered by Mr. Somerville – and I wonder about repentance:
Have the pastoral staff as a whole done anything to lead in acts of repentance? Any days of fasting and prayer? Have there been any corporate prayer meetings for confession? Letters posted on the blog or blog posts themselves mentioning regret are certainly a gesture. I don’t want to take anything away from that and I’ll let God judge hearts. But setting aside a day of public confession and prayer? Maybe there have been public confessions in members’ meetings and that would be good to hear.
I’m with Kris. Who is brave enough to face the deeper root issues in SGM?
Would anyone else ever get away with the behavior of CJ? Of course not. But what is the root cause of this fact? I’d love for leadership to humbly answer that with newfound clarity.
ExCLEer’sSister2,
As I said,
“If others disagree – that’s fine. Just a thought.”
Kind of hard to find any “judging” in that…but, even there, you are welcome (and, obviously, not reserved) to make your own “judgments” and share your opinions.
Also, I think you unfairly lowered the “brow” of Donald’s clever and flavorful writing style. :)
@ExCLCer’sSister2, I share Adullam’s concerns so it wouldn’t be fair for me to sit back and wait for him to respond to your post. No one ever said that only CLC/SGMers can post here. If you read back through Donald’s posts (and you don’t have to go any farther than the ones he posted on Saturday, which comprise about 20% of all of the posts on this blog), I think you’ll see that he was often stating things that have been said and discussed on this blog for years. Of course he has every right to do that, but his frequent posts on his various observations detract from the conversation.
I appreciate that Donald is processing what many others of us have lived for years, but like Adullam and Joe, I just don’t think that this blog is the place to think outloud. (They didn’t say that – that’s my oversimplification of their very gracious comments.)
As for the “high brow” language, that’s all a matter of opinion.
Ok…deep breaths everybody.
I’m ordering some pizza..who’s in?
One good thing about things being said (DPV) here that have been discussed for years….it saves the newbies a lot of work. :)
I mainly go right past long comments especially if one person is making a lot. But, there might be folks here who want to read what he’s saying. if I had more time, I might read them. :)
Sid
I’m in!!
What kind are we getting?
I’m good with anything that has pepperoni on it somewhere.
Adullam, Joe and ExCLCer:
1. No, as Jim said earlier, “This isn’t my first rodeo.” Not daunted by much in life other than God’s Sovereign Majesty and the prospects, one day, of death–that is, the pain that it may entail. The former is a grand comfort, even in death. My citizenship is in another country, based upon Christ’s finished and abiding work (Phil.3.20). So not daunted by any of it.
2. But, on the other hand, there have been a few casual conclusions that were unwarranted, some assumptions (e.g. such as earlier, but one pontificator, “if you don’t have skin in the game you shouldn’t have a say…I didn’t rebut the gratituous assumption, in the interests of peace, but my thought, my correct thought, was `Yeah, right, tell that to a Federal Judge who has “no skin in any game,’ but has a say,” or “Tell that to the Surgeon who’s not suffering from cancer and “has no personal skin in the game,” but has a right to speak…it was silly and, frankly, impudent), and even jocular asides. I have no time for any of that.
3. As stated repeatedly, the interest is the factual pattern, the history, the characteristics, and the truth. I can do that on my own without posting and yet with studying. This includes the blogs, but also CJ’s books and conferences. Even, contacting Brent.
4. I’ll continue reading, looking for substance. I like Ozymadias’s post today about varied subsets in the community–I am there is a place for beginners like myself who can be handled with gentleness and respect. I hope that SGMers who don’t have the full story can read here and ask questions without ridicule. I hope those who’ve suffered can find camradry with fellow suffers…something that offers hope. Also, as said to ExCLCer’s Mom, last night, I hope that her Grandpups can look back one day, years from now, and say, “There were–in fact–Christian people of integrity, honour, decency and truth who sought the facts, did the right things, and made corrections.” I want the kids to see that.
5. But, this is too long. Gotta keep it short. I’ll be around. Best regards to all. And thanks to all who’ve posted thus far.
In Adullam’s Cave: The pronouncement “I know you think you are making big revelations and insights, but you are only saying in simplistic, uninformed ways what most folks here have understood for a long time (even new folks would figure it out if they read a few stories, etc.)” was what I viewed as judging. Merely adding “If others disagree – that’s fine. Just a thought.” doesn’t change that.
It is interesting that you proclaim him to be “highbrow” and “simplistic” in one posting though. I am not trying to be hostile, but I have a very sensitive BS detector and my understanding is that the point of these blog is to eliminate as much BS as possible. You triggered mine. However, I do understand that much of human communication is accomplished through non-verbal means and communication that rely on on verbal means ensure that things will be misconstrued. I do find the information Donald imparts to be useful, but more than that, I enjoy his posts.
All I’m saying is that I’m sure there are plenty of people who read these blogs without ever commenting and you can’t know which poster has something to say that touches their heart or addresses their needs. I just don’t like hearing someone to tell others to shut up, no matter what phrasing they use.
About that pizza…?
Res Ipsa: Of course he didn’t say it. He merely implied it. Actually saying it, would be far more honest though. Thanks for reminding me why I don’t hang with “church people” anymore.
Wow.
Anyway…
Guy, I’ll take a deep-dish with everything on it.
I thought this blog was about honesty and openness and exposing the truth.
In Adullam’s Cave/Res Ipsa: layoff DPV already. If you don’t like his long posts, skip em! I much rather skim over his long, thought-provoking posts than see your pepperoni, deep-dish pizza posts.
ExCLCer’sSister2,
Welcome to the forum, I’m glad you’re here and I want to echo along with so many others my deepest heartfelt grief at what happened to your family. It is one of the saddest stories of what a church and pastors should NOT do and I wish that it never happened. You have such a brave and courageous mother who protected her children against such great odds in standing up to the wrongs/evils by Mr. A and SGM. I’m glad you’re reading here and joining your sibling exCLCer in sharing your perspective. I admire your own courage as you open up that painful chapter again by coming here and I hope you find some consolation in doing so.
If it helps, what I think others may be saying with regard to DPV is not that he shouldn’t post here and offer his views, which are very insightful, but that he is also digging through the 600+ pages of Brent Detwiler’s documents and posting frequent and lengthy analyses of that situation. There is quite a long history of this blog with past stories and posts that can shed light on many of the questions that he is raising. I myself like the idea if DPV set up a separate blog/dialogue for his research and discoveries so that it would be a thread dedicated just to that (and what a great thinker and articulate writer he is!). I applaud him for his dogged determination to understand and shed light on the dark corners of SGM, we really need that. This is only one of many blogs where SGM is discussed and I agree with Abdullam’s Cave and Joe in what they were suggesting to him, I don’t think they were telling him to “shut up” by any means. In any case, you are right about the diverse opinions being expressed here and that you never know who will say something that will be the exact thing that ends up speaking to you the most.
DVP writes like an old man :wink:. On one hand his grammar is better than most of ours and he’s clear and precise in his writing. On the other hand he’s more verbose than is normal for the Internet.
I’ve mostly lurked for two years. I already know most of what DVP says but don’t see a problem with him saying it because there are new people coming a long all the time who may not have figured it out yet.
Blue Sky: I can get what you’re saying. Thank you. Again, being new to delving into all of this information, I don’t know all of the sites to check, but I can certainly see your point. More, I can appreciate how you made it without feeling the need to analyze and rate his style of writing negatively. Again, thank you!
As for the pizza….I’m thinking we’re all far too old for pizza at this hour. I don’t think any of us are in Hawaii, so It’s pretty late.
Besides, it’ll make us fat and give us heartburn.
Let’s call it a night. Tomorrow we will all be fresh and ready to take on the world.
Much love,
The voice of reason. Aka Sid. ;)
Long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to let everyone know about how the Fairfax church is handling sexual abuse cases of current. We were called a few days ago and informed that one of the children’s ministry teachers had been arrested for having child pornography on his computer. They were calling families and letting them know of the situation. This is simply unheard of at this church. I’m thankful that they notified everyone so that we can better protect our children, I just wish they would have done the same thing in Noel and Happy Mom’s story.
Also, just wanted some insight on another question. Many people have said that if they knew of someone who committed a crime against a child that they would be yelling from the rooftops about the situation in order to protect others. However, it seems to me that there haven’t been any names shouted out on here as to who these people are. Is it to protect the victims? Why not warn current members who they are, even if they aren’t in the church any longer, their families are and they may be around their families when others are there……just a thought. :new
You know, not everyone’s writing will appeal to everyone. Just something I’ve learned over years of blogging. You write to pound out your thoughts and hopefully connect with others, but you don’t have much control over who those “others” may be. Some will appreciate you; some won’t. But the ones who don’t can simply scroll down or click away. I mean, no one’s eyeballs are being forced open here a la “Clockwork Orange.” (One assumes, anyway. :wink:)
Poor DPV is getting it from both sides. “I like you.” “I don’t like you.” “Keep talking.” “Shut up.” The way I see it, it’s a bit of a writer’s coup here, Donald. People are not neutral towards you! That’s a good thing.
I imagine you’re safe to continue commenting unless Kris or Guy bans you, so do what you do, be who you are, and people can take it or leave it.
Heaven will be amazing!
It can’t come too soon.
askquestions,
THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS AMAZING NEWS! The situation is indeed horrible, but how Fairfax responded so far… I want to hug you for bringing this wonderful news! Praise God that there are people that are finally hearing what some of us have been saying for so long. Hallelujah! These guys are doing the right thing.
Guys in Fairfax, two, nay three, nay 5 dozen freaking thumbs up (if I had that many).
People can think I am cynical and bitter or that I complain and moan, but I am telling you THIS is what I am living for lately—– to not hear pretty words but to see something REAL take place. Awesome, awesome, awesome!!!!!!
Sin will always be with us.
We can’t pretend that we don’t have people in our churches who struggle with this especially destructive sin. And right now, today, Fairfax has stepped up to the plate and swung instead of hiding in the dug out saying, “We’re fine. Everything is fine. Go away.”
Fairfax peeps, I grieve for the victims of this man, this man, and each of you. But Fairfax pastors, I rejoice over this wise choise. Please continue running the bases and carrying this out to a healthy home run.
Woooo hooooo
Stunned
who is so excited by this incredible news that she actually just used a baseball analogy- will wonders ever cease?
PS. Please, people in Fairfax, forgive me if in any way, shape or form I made you feel as if I was happy that there is a person in your midst who may have hurt children (either by participating in child porn or in his other actions or in even making small kids feel creeped out- even young ones can have good creep radars). This is truly horrific what is going on in so many ways. Please forgive me if I made you feel that I didn’t care about any possible victims. I do. Deeply.
I was just rejoicing that the situation may have been handled well today.
I know none of you are asking for any advice, but since I (unfortunately) have experience with pedophiles and churches, I’d like to make a suggestion.
Notifying Others
If this man was looking at child pornography, there is a chance that he has acted on his desires. Please, every parent, educate yourself on HOW to talk to your child, then talk to them. Ask questions. Do it in a very non condemning way. (As a small child I told my grown up cousin that I had been touched and where I had been touched- not somewhere you ever want a little girl touched- and the look of disgust and revulsion that I saw on my cousin’s face convinced me that I never wanted to see that again. So I never told anyone else until well into adulthood. A kid sees a face like that, and they are likely to think that THEY have done something wrong.)
Also, on the church’s website and in the church bulletin (if you have one) there needs to be an announcement made over the next 4 or so weeks, asking members to talk to their kids, etc. Ask also for any other possible victims to come forward.
Also, figure out when this person first started attending the church. Go back in your records and contact every single member from that time to inform them what you know and appeal to them to talk to their kids, too. (Just informing current members does no good for any past victims who may be going to church somewhere else.)
Family
If this person has any family in the church, reach out to them like it’s a matter of life or death. It very well may be. These people need your love and care more than any other time in their lives.
Surround them.
Drop flowers from your garden off at their house.
Leave them a note.
Give them a call.
Weep with them if they weep.
Tell them that you do not blame them for what someone in their family is done.
This is a horribly lonely period of time for that family. If they didn’t know about this beforehand, their world has just been shaking in ways I hope most of us will never understand.
Hold their hands. Invite them over for dinner.
And for gosh’s sake, if they have the guts to show their face in church again, I don’t care where you normally sit, you get up from your seat and you go sit beside them. Imagine this. These people come in to church, terrified, but wanting— needing their church family more than ever. They pick a spot and sit down. And one by one, every person in that church gets up to move close to them, to surround them. Sitting there, they are the epicenter of love in that congregation. There are people beside them, in front of them, behind them, their entire church encircling them in love. No one has to say much. They’ll know what you are doing.
Can you think of many more holy moments? I believe God himself would weep for joy if he say that kind of care and compassion in his church. (Some would say he might fall off his throne in shock, but I don’t think He’s going anywhere. Not easily shaken, he is.)
The Person Who Was Arrested
This person- dealing with them will be harder.
It just will be. You’re going to feel all sorts of emotions. Sickness. Revulsion.
It’s going to be hard, but you’re going to have to keep reminding yourself that this person is a sinner, just like you. (My sins may look prettier, but they are still sin.) Keep reminding yourself that this is exactly why Jesus came to live and die and be raised again. To reconcile all man to God, including this person. If this person repents, his sins are washed away in the heavenly realm. He/she will probably be facing some ugly times ahead.
I am not saying this person has repented. They may be a sociopath with a heart hard as stone and using your church as a nice place to prey on kids. They may be full of shame and wanting more than anything to rid themselves of these awful desires and want to protect children in their own right. (Strangely enough, pedophiles actually think they are not harming kids- or at least I think that is what they tell themselves to suppress their guilt. While others truly want to protect kids but can’t control themselves.) This person could be on one end of the spectrum or the other or somewhere in between. God will lead you as long as you keep the above things in mind.
When we had my dad arrested for molesting a child, it made news for millions (literally) of readers in a very large metropolitan area. My whole family thought this was the best reaction of all.
An older neighbor who had known my parents for over 40 years read about it, left her house (she wasn’t one to leave home often) and came to my parents’ house. She walked in and called for my dad. Walked to the basement steps and shouted, “Come on up. I know you’re down there.” Dad came up. She said, “I don’t know whether to hug you or slug you.” So she did both. With one arm she hugged him and with the other she punched him in the chest. My dad got it. We all got it. And to my dying day, I will love this woman for having the wisdom most people never will.
She knew my dad needed love more than any other time in his life. And she knew that he had to know she was disgusted and wasn’t going to sit by and give him any pass.
If this guy ends up behind bars, remember the commands to visit those in prison. (It’ll be a “fun” educational moment few of you will ever experience.)
Others in Your Church (including you) Are Going To Be Shaken
Others in your church- be aware that conservative statistics say that one in three females in America have been sexually assaulted. One in 5 or 7 males. This is rampant. Look around your homegroup. Count the women. Count the men. Realize that there is probably at least one if not more than one person in your homegroup who has been sexually assaulted.
This news is going to stir up emotions for a lot of people, even apart from fears for their own children. Most of us have never really dealt with past abuse. (Let’s face it, when you’re in a movement that for decades was telling victims of abuse to just move on, there’s lots of buried crud under the surface.) Ask questions. Be ready to see a variety of responses. Don’t condemn people for how they feel. Angry. Sad. Scared. Rage. Inappropriate laughing or giggling. Cold. Shut down. These are all normally part of the process. Be there for each other as God does His work. He is the ultimate recycler. He’s probably not going to let this situation go by without using it to begin healing in those who may have buried things for far too long.
Don’t tell anyone to move on.
Really.
Don’t.
No quicker way to shut down the work of the Holy Spirit in someone’s life than to encourage them to stop listening to their body, soul, spirit, emotions, mind than to tell them to ignore those things.
Pastors
Pastors- get the names of numbers of experienced therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists who help children and adults deal with sexual abuse issues. Have these names and their numbers at hand to share with anyone in your church who may need them. Please, recognize that you have NOT had the years of training to help them deal with this.
Have a family meeting or a regular church service where people can ask any question they want. Please, bring in experts to help you plan the meeting and to help answer questions. And when I say experts, I mean professionals who are trained to deal with this. Not just another pastor you respect. We need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and have some respect for those who have been helping communities walk through this for years and learn from them.
I am praying for you all in Fairfax. Walk on in His love and strength.
Stunned
@seasonofevaluation: Thanks so much for posting this. I’m currently attending CLC (as for the future, not sure yet) and have been wondering how other SGM churches have been dealing with this. Unfortunately, this is one of the great things about this blog, since this is information you don’t get directly from the church.
Maybe it’s just me, but it seems kind of strange that CJ, as the founder of SGM churches and its president, would charge churches to speak there anyway. You’d think visiting the churches and speaking to build them up would be part of his job. So he collects his salary anyway then gets paid by the churches on top of that to speak? I can understand paying his expenses, but not a speaking fee. Again, maybe it’s me, but that seems like a pretty sweet set-up: establish a bunch of churches and then have them pay you to come there and speak while at the same time you’re collecting a big salary from SGM itself (10% of which comes from the churches themselves to begin with). To all, please correct me if I’m not looking at this situation properly.
If CJ has been collecting large fees each time he spoke at a SGM church, it could explain why he has rarely been sighted at CLC in many years.
Guy, I love these, :THANK-YOU: They are all fabulous….I would have to say these two are my favorite…:Daze: :Liar:
My son wants everyone to know these are his favorite… :Movie-Time: :Luigi: :Optimus-Prime:
@DPV My kids often tell me I am “long winded”-I think it comes from being old enough to have the wisdom of being able to see so many sides and perspectives it seems near impossible to explain! I like your posts, so it you do start posting elsewhere, please let me know!
@Stunned (#102) Well said! I do hope Wycliff can do some training in that. As translators, maybe they will even be able to “speak SGM’ese” where the pastors could understand?
Just a couple of thoughts on that subject:
When my son came home from the war, a young man barely 23, I knew he had seen horrors I could never know. He was in active combat. He watched comrades die, he killed other men. He now has to live with images and experiences that even the most seasoned and wise person would have difficulty processing. I had to “teach” my children how to “treat” him upon his return. Younger ones may be “curious” and want to ask questions that perhaps should not have answers..others may feel so uncomfortable that they could avoid speaking to him, which could make him uncomfortable..and some, in an interest of letting him know our love for him, could keep wanting to express such, to always bring the subject around, that he could not feel “normal” in our midst. I told my children to just laugh with him, like he had never been gone. To not bring the subject up unless he did, and then to let him talk about whatever he wanted to talk about. One could apply this to victims of child abuse as well. We all as humans want to belong, and “feel normal”, or like “we fit in” with those around us. If we are treated with “kid gloves” we no longer feel normal. It is like the uncomfortable feeling you get when you know someone who has lost someone close to them from death. There are things you can say, but nothing will stop their pain at the time, nothing will bring that person back, and only God can heal them. So it is with child abuse as well. If you “shout it from the rooftops”, how would that make a child feel amongst his/her peers? Or, how would it make the other siblings feel? Many tweens/teens would not know how to process this, and could likely set the victim apart because they did not know how to respond. That is why I think churches should “prepare” in advance for such revelations. Teach the parents to teach their children about child abuse (sexual and otherwise). Teach the entire congregation and even neighborhood around you that the victim is no different from anyone else, and you may actually be surprised how many victims are out there, covering up what has happened to them, trying to fit in,! Stunned (#102) blockquoteblockquote So, in saying all of that, I want to reiterate: Perhaps, in our haste and hatred for child abuse, we do need to make sure that those around us are actually prepared to deal with things correctly, lest we cause more harm with our good intentions. Of course, in the meantime, we should not let such abusers remain in the midst to continue their abuse! One reason why these pedophiles have such “free reign” is because people, including victims, feel uncomfortable talking about it. In a church, they are able to hide behind “SGM’ese”, and quoting Bible Scriptures, and their “boy scout” appearance-“He seems like such a good father!”, and those who “know” are afraid of re-victimizing the victim. If a church is prepared-actually speak publicly about the prevalence and the desire to deal harshly and openly with such abusers,it would not entirely stop prevent anything from ever happening, but I will bet an abuser may feel he wants to look for another church where he could better hide!
Also, yeah, Fairfax! :clap
You know guys,
I would have been honored if someone from the outside would have cared enough to process the c**p I was involved in such an analytical manner. But no one from the outside or inside cared that much. The show must go on.
I see the suggestions for censoring DVP, not coming from the blog owners, ironically, as just another sgm type of behavior control.
Your leader (the one you once followed) invited others from the outside in by using outsiders for his discipline. That is going to bring in outsiders who don’t know the lingo and are not part of your little club. Get on CJ for that if you do not like some of them or the way they communicate.
You want people to understand and DPV is providing constant detail from the documents. But instead, a few are making it the same old narrow club that sgm has always been. Others won’t speak up and defend. More sgm style behavior.
People who don’t like DPV’s
comments cannot scroll past? They have to chide him publicly? I don’t get that.
I, for one, hope Donald writes a book someday about these charlatans he has studied in depth. And I would be proud to say, I blogged with him.
Ever since Jim came on and blasted Donald, others have felt freerto give it to him more earnestly.
I smell an sgm pattern of behavior.
I have blasted some myself because of their callousness and sin sniffing to the victims or other bloggers.
I say, keep the victims front and center. Forget the leaders. They have had the “care” for a long time. Stop worrying over them except as Exhibit A in the process.
The leaders have had a long time to meet Christ and REALLY know Him….after all, they make their living saying they belonged to Him and modeling “Christian” behavior
while they protected predators and excommunicated people. Oh and made predators “head” of the family. The list is long, isn’t it.
But, if some of you are willing to censor friends, then you might not get it. The kingdom is made up of people who get on our nerves yet love us and care about our burdens but do not add to them.
Think about that sometime.
Signing off with a salute to Donald for caring much for the victims of SGM.
ask questions & Stunned,
Glad to hear that after more than 10 years of the suffering of other victims, Fairfax is finally notifying families at risk. Which was one of our BIGGEST concerns and motivation to go public.
I would be a whole lot more encouraged IF in their Family Meeting, JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, there was less spinning/lies/outright deception and a concerted effort to make the victims families look like unforgiving idiots.
One more point regarding Fairfax now notifying church members:
This individual is an ADULT. He was arrested, so his name/picture could very well show up in a local paper, imagine the outrage if that happened and Fairfax did NOT notify members?
In the three cases with Noel and our stories, all three perps were minors and the church was NOT notified. When I asked M.Mullery in one of our meetings why they did not inform families at risk, he said, “that perp could grow up and sue us for defamation of character.”
I’m an oldie. I began reading and commenting on this blog shortly after Kris first started it.
It’s a place where you can “let it all hang out,” regardless of whether you’re a newbie, oldie, current SGMer, former SGMer, non-SGMer, or SGM-defender.
Kris and Guy are gracious hosts and they open up their “home” to all. They also give a lot of freedom to their “guests” to work things out among themselves when there’s disagreement. When someone gets out of line, they politely show them the “door.”
I read a LOT of blogs. A blog like this is rare.
Thanks, Kris and Guy.
Thank you @DK # 104! That is what I was trying to say earlier. CJ hasn’t been in CLC consistently for years..this needs to be noted.
Hi Mr. Veitch (and all)–
I am chiming in a little late. Wanted to say that I do appreciate all your efforts to understand this whole SGM thing. I know that it seems very bizarre to people who haven’t lived it, and it does take some time to process.
I was trying to explain about CJ stepping down to some of my family (who are aware of SGM but haven’t been in it), and it was really hard to say it in a way that made sense!
So, Mr. Veitch, thank you for being here.
Stunned!!!!
I was so moved by your comments! That is the most mature, compassionate and Christlike attitude that many of us need to hear. And the hardest to actually do but if you can do that, knowing about your dad, than I will do it. It seems we love to have justice prevail and a wrong made right. But it made me realize that the family that is also suffering is the family of the perpetrator. The kneejerk reaction is to not associate with them because what would people think? Are we so worried(speaking to myself) what people will think if we hang with them? I’m hoping I’m making sense and not just spouting off.
I really just want to say I love you, Stunned and am grateful to know you personally!
I joined this thread a bit late but want to comment on some of the earlier posts about Bill P. at Covenant Fellowship:
I was at both meetings when he stepped down – the first one was years earlier and i forget the reasons (certainly one was pride, i mean, they all say that at such meetings, it must be some kind of requirement), anyway, that was when he stepped down from lead pastor. That was the day that CFC lost it’s best preacher they ever had – yes, he actually preached! Instead of all this intellectual point one, point two, boring teaching BS sessions about what all the current writers, and the dead puritan ones, have to say… you know how between every sentence there is a passage from some book put up on the screen… never the bible, by the way…
Anyway, to answer one of your earlier questions, he was eventually brought back as “administrator,” and was also made a worship leader… I think many of us there never knew for sure he was considered a pastor… although he was clearly given some pastoral roles..
The 2nd time he stepped down (2002), and i remember this time more clearly, he said it was due to waywardness/ rebellion (forget how he put it) of his 2nd son… and how he presented it made it clear that it was his decision to disqualify himself, and Dave H. supported his decision and went on and on how humble Bill was…
I remember thinking then, that although he was saying it was his decision, that he was being forced… and now i hear about the letter CJ sent to all the 50 other churches about this… Guess i was probably right….
By the way, i never thought that a rebellious teenager should cause a good man like Bill to lose his “gifting” and his position…. He was and still is, in my opinion, one of the best pastors i have ever sat under…
I know him well, and love and respect him…. yes, someone pointed out he was “no boyscout” but i never experienced anything but love and grace from him… and i served on his worship team and he is soooo gifted in that area…
I would like to see him restored in that capacity, at least, if not again as a preaching pastor…
His son, Curtis, grew up, and from what i can see (we are friends on FB, though i never knew him well personally) is a fine young solid christian man….
AGAIN… why are good men like Bill dismissed because of a season of rebellion from a teenager???
Anyone have any thoughts about this? I know there is some scripture that supports this, at least i seem to remember this from when they taught the “are you called” class…. But now i am wondering…
Finally, given this fact, i wonder how many pastors live in fear that a son or daughter will disqualify them…. how this must cause serious harm in parenting the children to ensure this never happens – maybe this is why we have all heard so many stories of 30 separate spanking sessions in a single hours time because a 3 year old won’t eat his or her peas…
I wonder how many pastors should be de-gifted right now, but they keep their children’s sins secret…..
and, of course, we all know that our children sin… as we do…
I think this is a BS reason to fire a pastor!
alemap, you have moved me. Thank you. *warning for those who don’t like it when we get emotional* Big hugs.
You wrote, “The kneejerk reaction is to not associate with them because what would people think? Are we so worried(speaking to myself) what people will think if we hang with them?”
Here’s the cool thing. Some people are going to see that innocents (the families of the pedophiles) are loved. Some people are going to see love in action. Some people are going to see God in action, maybe for the first times in their life. We are called to associate with those that the rest of the world would turn their backs on- the homeless, those in prison, those hungry and hurting.
And we will finally become like the sheep who will some day say, “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then people will praise His name.
Yep, that’s what some people will think.
The rest of them, I guess we really don’t need to worry what they will think.
Stunned & alemap,
Our focus has always been directed on how the staff handled the cases at Fairfax. We extended forgiveness to both perps and they know this. Our family has demonstrated tangible acts of kindness towards one of the perps who is still in the area. Stunned, I appreciate your heart in helping others see the other side.
20 Years, Bill was a good preacher. Unfortunately, he also preached legalism and manipulation.
You see, Bill actually requested I once use my “feminine ways” to manipulate my husband to agree with Bill on something. I had sat under Bill’s teaching since I was 19 years old- the first years of SGM and saw him through 15 years of ups and downs. I was horrified that he was, behind the scenes encouraging me to go against everything he ever taught from the pulpit and to sin against God in such a henious way. He is also the same man who, just days after meeting with him to discuss some concerns with the church, sent me the invitation to go find another church. (Saying I was stunned would have been an understatement.)
I did know his second son well. Great kid. (Best of the lot in my opinion.) His son “sinning” was ridiculous. As much as Bill did more damage to me than even what my father did to our family, I still thought it was tragic that this very good kid was put on the SGM altar and sacrificed for the excuse to get Bill out of there.
PS for anyone who doesn’t know- His “boy” was a legal adult when the incident happened. He was 19 years old. Like I said, I knew him well. Bill having to step down for that was a horrifically absurd situation. (Again, I am NO Bill Patton fan, much as he has amazing gifts both in preaching and worship leading. But no heart of love by an stretch. Maybe- and I hope this is true-God has grown a heart in him. That has yet to be seen. I’ll let you know if he ever contacts all those he has harmed to apologize.)
Oh, and when I say incident, they made it seem like it was because his son… and are you ready?…. kissed a girl… on more than one occasion. Yeah, it could have been more, but in 2002 they publically humiliated this young man and publically put the weight of the family’s loss of livelihood on his young shoulders because… can you believe it… he supposedly kissed a girl (same girl) more than once. I mean, what normal, healthy 19 year old would do such a horrendous thing? (And I tell you, this kid was more honest, more real and a heck of a whole lot more sweet and loving than most of that lot and for sure most of the kids of the other pastors. I don’t know what he is like now, but back then, I was a huge fan and like I said, knew him fairly well.)
Oh, and btw, the girl was a fairly good kid, too. How much shame still resides in their hearts due to this horrifically unbiblical, un-Godlike public stepping down? Have him step down for being cold (though charming when he wanted to), unloving, manipulative, and a whole host of things. But because he couldn’t stop his 19 (almost 20 year old) from kissing a girl? That was beyond bad, not to mention hypocritical for all we know of other leader’s families now, both in the same church and Bill’s top leader.
Stunned
happymom, from everything I have read, you and your whole family have handled your entire situation in the most amazingly courageous ways. I wish everyone in your situation would have had the love and integrity you guys have had.
Stunned
WOW! the way you just put all that out there has really impacted me… It is such a horror! So rediculous!!! almost criminal..
I had not thought of how curtis must have felt – and the girl… I did forget that detail, although now i remember…. so he made out, at the age of 19, w/ a girl…. and Bill got fired for that and the whole family publicly shamed!
You are absolutely right! How horrific!
About Bill personally, i have heard such things, just never experienced them… I did not know he was in on the “inviting people to leave” thing – i thought that was all later practice in CFC, done by others…
sorry to hear of this stuff and i do not doubt you in the least.. It must have been awful and frustrating to go through what you did….
I had my share of some bad stuff lumped onto my shoulders, just never by Bill – who actually was the only leader there to ever initiate a relationship w/ me on his own, because i reminded him of himself in my struggles, and he wanted to help me… I guess that is why i am loyal to him..
Thanks for sharing, and i must admit, i am really wondering who you are…. we probably know each other…
20 Years, I am genuinely very glad to hear that he reached out to you and loved you. That is a gift from God, used by Bill. Weird thing is, none of us are all good or all bad. (Granted, some of us have only 1% good, but I don’t think that is Bill whatsoever.) I am glad he showed you the good and loving parts of himself. You, well everyone, but you deserve it.
Didn’t you play music in the band?
stunned,
yes, played in band most of the 20 years i was there.
And were you in another SGM church for a season, too?
bingo!
so u know who i am…
That was so incredibly self righteous of me to out that person who kicked me and my family out of SGM. And it was incredibly self righteous of me to say some of the other things I have said in my last two posts. I have written and asked Kris to either edit certain things I said or remove the post altogether. However, someone other than 20 Years may have already read what I wrote, so I need to publically apologize to the certain person I outed and ask you all, if you have read who I said, when you think of him, to pray for him and his family and not hold any…well, I wish I could erase any negative knowledge someone may have for this person because of me.
Stunned
who actually let that post sit for a good long while before she hit “submit comment” and prayed about it first and all and STILL apparently didn’t let it sit long unpublished long enough
:new I guess I don’t know where to start. I’ve been a member of an SGM church (one of the 1st ones) for 15 years. I felt loved, cared for and challenged at the same time where needed. I was a very active member involved in care group as well as worship team. I have had (and still do have) a great respect for my pastor(s) and truly loved those whom I increasingly knew as family since I am the only Christian in my own.
Much has changed….I was married last July to a man I knew for a little over a year and who did not attend a SGM church. We went through premarital counseling with my pastor (a man who I attended college with) and then after the wedding moved to a different state. My husband quickly became emotionally abusive and the relationship began to quickly degenerate. I left him not once but twice in a desperate attempt to get us into counseling. He would agree at first but then, after I returned to the household, he would cease counseling and the relationship continued to be more and more abusive to the point where I was beginning to fear for my physical safety. I left him for good in late Feb. After I left, it became quite ugly and was complete confirmation to me that leaving was the right thing to do.
Upon return to my SGM church those who I had the deepest relationships with told me that I was, “no longer welcome in their home” and that I must return because, “that is the only hell I would ever experience”. In addition, another stated that I brought shame to the name of Christ and she would have rather seen my belongings sold off at auction than help me move them out of a storage unit. There have been a few people who have generously reached out and gave sacrifically of themselves and for that I am eternally grateful.
I have not been permitted to be on worship team even though I am in no way in sin or under church discipline (according to my pastors). Their reasoning is that others in the body have issue with my return (since he wasn’t hitting me)and therefore it would make them stumble with seeing me on stage. I have never felt more alone, rejected and isolated in my life. Perhaps I am completely wrong…I don’t know.
I was initially thinking that my case was isolated. However, with all of the recent developments, I’m beginning to wonder if this is a result of a more systemic problem and really seeking the Lord if I should stay or perhaps seek another church home. I apologize for being off topic. I’m just trying to make some sense out of all this.
Exclcer post#358 last thread, that was a great post. So much of what you said is obvious to outsiders and it is a ‘no brainer’ that these abuses are happening at SGM because the very system is faulty.
My heart breaks for you on the part about no expectations = no disappointments. I can totally relate. However, I have learned to educate myself more on areas that deserve caution rather than treat every potential positive outcome with lack of any expectation. I was so disappointed after losing two babies inutero that when I was carrying the next child I barely acknowledged her existence even to the point of having nothing ready for her until just before she was born. Anyway, I just tell you that because I know you don’t want to affect anyone else negatively and I just felt like I spent way too many years not living life to the fullest for the people counting on me because of my fear of disappointment which was rooted in childhood religious abuse.
These people are sick. They are the ones that bring “shame to the name of Christ”. They need to be rebuked by the pastors & if the pastors won’t do it, they need to be exposed.
Gadget,
Welcome!
Your story – and others like it, including some that have not been shared on the site but were emailed to me privately – are why SGM’s response to the Megan and Kerrin situation has made so many people angry.
Yes, it’s true that Kerrin quit a well-paying job that he was probably going to lose. And yes, it’s true that around the same time, Megan lost her dream home and had to deal with the idea that her husband was doing yoga and had expressed an interest in visiting a Universalist church. Kerrin also didn’t seem very motivated to try and save his marriage, shutting down communication because (he says) everything he said to his wife was then shared by her with her parents.
But ultimately, Megan has been wholeheartedly supported by SGM while Kerrin was vilified. Her whiny blog posts garnered comments from SGM friends who told her she was their hero. Hero for what? I guess it’s heroic in SGM to refuse to follow your husband’s leading and wishes…EXCEPT if his leading and wishes happen to lead one away from SGM and from one’s family of origin.
I should add, for the record, in case anyone is wondering, that if Megan’s scenario were taking place in the real world and not in SGM, I wouldn’t really blame her for not wanting to leave the country and drag my 5 kids away from my parents. I would probably be inclined to respond in the same way.
But within the context of SGM, Megan and Kerrin’s situation is a disgusting example of favoritism…of “some of us are more equal than others.” If you’re the daughter of SGM’s celebrity music maker, you’re NOT instructed to put up or shut up. Instead, you’re “cared for” and supported.
But if you’re an ordinary member and you leave someone who is actually abusive, rather than just a less-than-satisfying partner with newly differing ideas about church, you’re treated like a pariah.
To bring this back around to the topic at hand, I wonder when SGM members are going to stand up and walk away from a system that has one set of rules for leaders and another set of rules for those beneath the leaders? We see this in the way that CJ has been supported by the SGM board in his quest to leave the “happiest place on earth” so that he and Carolyn can be “better cared for” by a church completely outside the SGM system. Why this isn’t outraging everyone is beyond my comprehension.
How do you people live with this rank hypocrisy?
@ Gadget in #125…..Sounds to me like, just as you had to leave an abusive marriage, you also need to leave an abusive church group.
Patti –
Yes, I understand. I should have been more specific — I no longer base my expectations on emotions. Expectations for me are now based in an understanding of the “most likely outcome”, not the “one I would wish for the most”…….based on knowing that past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior, and if outcomes are better than expected – then nice surprise.
Thanks for making that point. :goodpost
Kris said
To bring this back around to the topic at hand, I wonder when SGM members are going to stand up and walk away from a system that has one set of rules for leaders and another set of rules for those beneath the leaders? We see this in the way that CJ has been supported by the SGM board in his quest to leave the “happiest place on earth” so that he and Carolyn can be “better cared for” by a church completely outside the SGM system. Why this isn’t outraging everyone is beyond my comprehension.
How do you people live with this rank hypocrisy?
Kris, I am still at an SGM church, have been for 22 years now, to answer your question about why (at least one SGM members perspective) I/we have not walked away? First, I AM outraged at the hypocrisy – the fact that CJ left CLC to avoid what he, or his system that he influenced/created, forced so many other pastors to endure is hypocrisy and it is outrageous. But again, every SGM church is handling these issues differently….I love many of the folks in my local church, I love our pastor, he is dealing with the SGM issues in an open and transparent way, I believe I am being led by the Lord to, thus far, stick it out and see what changes occur? I am open to being led by the lord to a new church, but thus far I do not feel led to do so….I am, however, being led by the Holy Spirit to give my tithes to others for a season (rather to my SGM church), but I am steadfastly praying for change and not yet willing to leave unless God directs me…Also I have experienced tremendous fruit and growth in my 22 years at an SGM church, have seen many come to the Lord, have been a part of some very exciting spirit led times – although the “spirit led” aspect I must admit has slowly declined over the past 10 years….But YES I am outraged at the double standard and hypocrisy – but to me, where to worhsip and walk out my Christian life is a huge decision, and I must hear directly from God. He was very clear in leading us out of CLC many years ago, and I am grateful, and I truly believe the sheep will hear the Shephards voice and that is what I desire…His guidance….
Gadget – thanks for sharing your story. Youre not alone. A lot of “us” have felt at one time we were the “only ones” and left to feel like maybe something really was wrong with “us” because it seemed like we were alone in our pain or the way we were treated. But we aren’t alone by a loooong shot, and just know there are so many people here who totally understand how you feel!! :welcome
Gadget, oh my gosh. I don’t know where to start. Welcome.
As I started reading your post I thought, “That’s nice that this person had a good experience. I am glad she found a place that was good for her/him, especially since he/she didn’t have any other Christians in his/her family. I wish we had all had that but I am glad that at least, some did.”
Part way through the second paragraph my heart began to drop as I read about the abuse you endured. By the end of that paragraph I wanted to put my arms around you and praise you for the courage and wisdom it took to get yourself out of an unsafe place and recognize that that is not the kind of contract God wants you to keep (one where only one member of the contract keeps their promise).
Paragraph 3- my heart dropped all the way into my stomach. At least that’s what it feels like. I feel ill. Ill. Please, no one tell me I shouldn’t be surprised. I gasped in horror at that first line. I haven’t even gone back to finish the post. I will but right now, I feel too sick to keep reading.
Gadget, welcome. I wish all His people could surround you with His care and love and wisdom and understanding. “By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is established; through knowledge its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures.” Ps 24:3-4 God has given you wisdom. He is giving you greater understanding. As you grow in knowledge of what is happening around you and in this world, you will gain rare and beautiful treasures.
He is making a home for you, here on earth, though it does not look like the home you thought you would have a year ago. But it is better, for it’s foundation will be established in understanding. This is missing in large quantities at SGM. The women are taught to bury their heads in the sand and only see the good stuff of life, without acknowledging the need for knowledge of all things. “Wise as serpents and gentle as doves.”
You have been blessed to have your eyes open (though they were pried open, painfully and brutally with a crow bar) and now you have the priviledge to warn and comfort others. How many women in SGM went into nightmare marriages blinded because we had no way to discern what was right in front of our eyes.
This is what happens when we teach our children to be dependent upon us, rather than how to hear the Holy Spirit for themselves.
I will read more of your post later. For now I just had to give you some electronic hug.
Stunned
Radically Saved said, “I believe I am being led by the Lord…”
That is the best thing. To hear Him for yourself. Just wanted to give you some sisterly encouragement to keep it up. Is there anything He likes so much as to have His precious little ones coming to Him to hang out with Him? God, forgive those of us when we have sought others’ opinion above yours.
Kris,
Thank you. I am aware of the Megan Kauflin situation and I have raised the point of duality with my pastor. He’s taken a more hands off approach since. I pray that reconciliation can occur with all parties involved.
exCLCer – thank you. It helps to know you’re not alone.
Pampy said, “Sounds to me like, just as you had to leave an abusive marriage, you also need to leave an abusive church group.”
I have to agree, wholeheartedly, Gadget. I do NOT tell most people to leave SGM. (My best friend is still there.) But you have been abused by one man, and are being abused by a whole other group. Your pastors may be saying that you are not in sin, but by not letting you back on the worship team because others may sin is not YOUR PROBLEM. The pastors need to deal with this head on by getting up and giving a sermon specifically addressing those people’s problems and sin, not hiding you under a cloak of shame. They need to get up and get all exigessical on the peoples’…. errrr. back sides and TEACH them the truths in scripture instead of letting other people’s sin ruin YOU.
These men do not have your back. Please recognize that your abuse did not end when you left the man you married.
I did this so I hope you don’t mind me making this suggestioin: please, consider seeking professional counseling to help you figure out why you would even for a minute stick around a place that is abusive to you. It may help you avoid this kind of grief and suffering in the future.
Stunned
To state what most everyone who has been on the left foot of the SGM fellowship knows: When someone on the SGM board (once known as the apostolic team) feels it is time to go, they will find whatever sins, weaknesses or flaws to justify their actions (or conscience if they have one) to move you out. If it hadn’t been Bill’s son kissing a girl too many times or kissing her too long at one time, they would have found something else (perhaps he leaves the toilet seat up).
Part of their strategy is to isolate the one who needs to go. They will build a case against you through others to confirm their ‘dizernment’ and make sure the only input you receive is theirs.
I can only laugh when I read CJ’s blog about the better care and counsel he will get with Mark. I don’t disagree with him at all, he is absolutely correct. CJ’s worst nightmare would be for Shank to show up on his doorstep (except Shank doesn’t have the testicles to challenge CJ)
When I asked CJ and his team to release me and our church from PDI. His answer was no! While we were going to work through this together, :spin CJ demanded in our first conversation that I cut all communication with one of my closest friends (and my mentor) who was a pastor and part of another apostolic team for at least a year; and then he called my friend and requested that he not contact me for at least a year. And my only contact with PDI was Shank – the rest is history.
As angry as I can be with myself that I submitted to these jokers, I have to commend CJ for doing what is best for he and his family. Why would he cut off all communication with Mark and the other reformed dogs and just hear from the pastors at CLC? He knows how it works — it would be his worst nightmare.
That being said, his decision is loaded with hypocrisy and cowardice but laced with wisdom (and self-preservation). Dave,CJ and the other SGM leaders, you a lot to answer to the Lord and the body of Christ as you men have sinned greatly against both. (oh no – an accusation against elders without two or three witnesses)
And last – Stunned said a heart full concerning the affects to the boy and girl whose serious sin against SGM was so great :scratch . I know for years my children felt weight and personal guilt of my leaving the pastorate as they were one of Shank’s major targets. The fact that only one of the three refuses to trust a spiritual leader is a miracle. (My family’s situation pales in comparison to those whose families were violated by the sex offenders and the lack and inappropriate pastoral care they received – not even close)
Kris: as a current, active member of CLC I am horrified at the double standards being walked out by CJ … me and my family have not left (yet), but as my name indicates it was only the beginning–we’ll see how this all progresses.
I DO feel that Josh Harris and the pastoral team is handling things well, as well as can be handled with so many years of hidden sin and cover-ups.
Stunned – Thank you. I am in the process of pursuing counseling and the Lord’s guidance as to where to go for it. I still have great respect for my pastors. They have met on at least 2 occassions with those who have taken the harsh actions as described above telling them that it is wrong to treat another like this and to say what they did. Little has happened since and little has changed.
@It’s just the beginning: :goodpost I too am a current member and agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, i have a feeling most people feel this way
for Gadget… welcome :spin :D
Anybody here ever read the Baxter Family Series by Karen Kingsbury and Gary Smalley? The couple Dayne Matthews and Katy Hart have kissing scenes written into them while they are still dating/courting and before marraige. If Dr. Gary Smalley has no problem with it why should SGM. Especially to the tune of firing the FATHER of an ADULT? I swear sometimes the nose is so far up in the air that somebody is either going to get a nosebleed or trip over something. Kissing a girl… sheesh, that’s barely first base. I wonder, did she cry foul ball? Was he a bad kisser? Maybe he needed more practice. SHEEEESH
20 years said:
“I think this is a BS reason to fire a pastor!”
Exactly right, it is BS and in light of current events with CJ, completely hypocritical. I don’t read that in my bible. That whole leadership team needs to go, period.
Stunned said:
“20 Years, Bill was a good preacher. Unfortunately, he also preached legalism and manipulation.”
I am a one trick pony and Stunned all I can say is I saw this at my SGM church as well. But my one “trick” is this, you can’t send someone to a home grown pastors “college”, throw out everything about reformed theology (including polity and confessions), then not expect problems. The arrogance and ignorance (I do not mean that in a slanderous way) of the men in leadership at SGM is appalling.
I have friends in SGM who are joyless because week after week all they get is didactic instruction, and exhortations to serve more.
Me? I left and am in a reformed church where week after week I get Christ and His finished work on the cross for my sins.
To Stunned, 20 years and all my dear brothers and sisters on this blog, may God bring you all healing and comfort. He is bringing what was hidden to the light, exposing SGM for what it is. Woe to those who hurt His dear sheep and teach as His the doctrines of men. May God have mercy on their souls.
@ Stunned (#134) :goodpost :clap :amen
:welcome Gadget! I’m so sorry. I am glad you got out when you did, rather than staying in, hoping it will get better. Those other people don’t get how demoralizing it is to be abused like that. Click on my name to read my story. You’re definitely NOT alone.
Good Grief!!!! :x
Another example of SGM’s weird, whacked, creepy, freaky, icky, culture. :roll:
Al, Bill was never in the pastor’s college. I think you went to Covenant Fellowship. Bill Patton was the pastor who started the church back in 1984. Came up from CLC. Was supposedly best friends with CJ and trained by him. Though, the first time Bill was busted down from Senior Pastor to regular pastor and Dave Harvey started as senior pastor, all of a sudden CJ stopped staying at Bill’s house when he came to town. Suddenly he and Dave were buddy buddy and I seldom saw CJ hugging Bill like he did back when Bill was on stage with him. It really broke my heart for Bill and made me realize that these guys have no idea what the meaning of friendship really was. So sad.
Gadget, I am really glad to hear that your pastors spoke with others for not loving you and welcoming you back with open arms. Huzzah for them doing that.
@Stunned #141
Oops I guess I was on my rant about the PC again sorry. :D My PC rant was more leveled at the general pastoral community of SGM, it boggles my mind that they even saw a need for that. I guess I should have known that Bill was before the PC.
What you wrote about Bill’s treatment by Dave and CJ is just sickening. :barf: It is cruel and twisted. *sigh* That treatment is so deeply ingrained in the culture there. I experienced it firsthand. In one day, part of the “in” crowd, singled out for praise during a sermon, then one day realizing you were now out, as critical statements from the pulpit were undoubtedly leveled at me. . .
Stunned, what I do not understand is why someone like Bill didn’t just shake the dust off and leave? Why do so many people get beat up and stay?” It’s so hard for me to get my head around it. When they pulled that c%^p on me, I left. ..
I would tell you what church I was from but I still have friends inside who I hope will leave. :bang
Gadget,
Welcome and thank you for sharing your story. I am so sorry for the treatment you received from people you had thought of as friends and I’m glad that you are feeling your pastor’s support. I’ve reposted the following a couple of times as a welcome hug for those who are sharing their stories here for the first time. All of the references may not apply to you; but I hope it blesses you. This community can at times be a bit rough and tumble; but it is always real and accepting love is always a dominant theme
‘A very familiar story very freely paraphrased
….who is my neighbor?”
On their journey a family was attacked by fellow travelers they had trusted. They were reviled, persecuted, robbed, and left by the road. A pastor happened to be going down the road, and when he saw the family, he passed by on the other side, reviling them as he went. So too, a man called apostle, when he came to the place and saw them, passed by on the other side, stopping his ears to their moans. And thirdly, a Canis Major Reformer looked away and hurried by. But some bloggers, as they traveled on their own journeys, came where the family was; and when they saw them, they took pity on them. They went to them, heard their cries, dried their tears, and bandaged their wounds; pouring on oil and wine. Then they offered the family a sheltered place and cared for them. And they did not forget the family, but carried them in their hearts, speaking of them and praying for them often. Which of these do you think were neighbors to the family?
And the questioner replied, “The ones who had mercy on them.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” ‘
RE Gadget #125
After 30 and 28 years in CLC, respectively, my husband and I left to go to another church. One of the wonderful people we encountered at our new church is an incredibly gifted, loving, spirit-filled woman who leads a women’s class that I would not miss for anything. She also serves by leading international mission work. She is an inspiration to all and a walking example of God’s love. We have noted that, because she has been divorced twice, she would not have been allowed to do any of this type of service at CLC. She often shares how the Lord uses her failures and brokenness to help others. How much are the SGM churches missing out on because of the attitudes in Gadget’s post and others?
20 years and Stunned…
I was at CFC the same time as both of you. 20 years…your post #114 is brilliant! I agree wholeheartedly and think CFC lost their very best when they did what they did to Bill. Never will I believe that he wasn’t “coerced” into that whole step down thing over Curtis. How ridiculous. I often wonder how he must be processing all this.
After the whole thing with Bill in 2002 is when I first started having suspicious feelings about Dave and C.J. being the “power mongers.” Bad feelings in the air. Then the whole thing with Joe McMullin, another one of their best, was very strange. Get rid of Bill, get rid of Alan, goodbye to Joe, and Mr. Shorey, etc., etc. All this “degifting” stuff is B.S. Where in the bible does it say that the Holy Spirit “de-gifts” people? And who do Dave and C.J. think they are to lord it over so many the way they have? I want all my money and time back!
Just a point – CJ Mahaney didn’t write ‘Stop Dating the Church’, Josh Harris did.
Phoenix & dk – thank you. I do respect my pastors. I do not, though feel completely supported by them. I have been told by othrs that they (pastors) would like to see me return (again because of no physical abuse). When I have asked them directly, they hedge and say that, “we’re not asking you to return … TODAY.” Ok…. so I stated that in order for me to return to my husband, I would need him to seek PROFESSIONAL psychological help, move back to the area and demonstrate consistent growth over an extended period of time (1 yr???). My pastors would not agree. :scratch
I truly believe that the actions and statements of those once closest to me are a direct result of the culture that seeps through all SGM churches. If you do not fit neatly into the prescribed mold then either your thinking is unBiblical or you are unteachable. In addition, if you do not have the correct pedigree (last name) or are buddy buddy with those that do then you better fit into the mold or be an outcast. However, those who are of the upper eshelon (sp?) can have certain license with the message that we need to be “grace-filled” and extend mercy to those.
I’m reeling emotionally facing the thought of leaving a body that I once considered family…I really did. But with CJ acting in this way with Dave H. in tow (more of the same) nothing in the true culture of SGM is going to change. *sigh*
Marion,
just one little correction to your post – i am 99 percent sure that Allen felt out of place in sgm after a while, felt uncalled, and decided to resign completely on his own…
we were good friends, and i am not sure if i heard that directly from him, but i think i did, actually… it was a long time back…
anyway, he would have eventually been ousted for sure, as he definitely did not fit the SGM pastor’s mold…. Too old, maybe, too good at preaching grace and not sin, who knows?… I used to love when he preached…
Now Joe M., something definitely fishy went on there and i heard bits and pieces but should not comment as they were all 3rd party… he also didn’t fit the mold… and probably shouldn’t mention them anyway…
Don Shorey personally shared his whole story w/ me… I haven’t asked his permission to share it and i won’t as i bet he is too gracious and humble to want it out there publicly…. suffice to say, his (excellent!) messages had too much grace, not enough sin for the leaders over him .. they would view his notes before each time he taught or preached, and would ask him to mention sin more….
I have said this before several times on this blog, but this fact alone, about adding sin to every message and taking out grace, tells all of us all we need to know about SGM…
re:posts 128, 131, 138, 139 etc.
I was thinking of knitting a sweater that featured a beautifully ornate scarlet H on it, and mailing it to Gaithersburg, but he would probably think the H stood for Holy and would wear it proudly….
QE2 wrote, “I was thinking of knitting a sweater that featured a beautifully ornate scarlet H on it, and mailing it to Gaithersburg, but he would probably think the H stood for Holy and would wear it proudly….”
It stands for “humble,” right? :wink:
Like Kris and Guy, I attended an SGM church for a while. What I’m about to say does not apply to everyone attending an SGM church, but I will say that what I saw characterizes the local church I attended as a whole. I saw love bombing, hypocrisy, and pastor worship. I noticed that the words of men like Spurgeon were posted more often on the big screen during the church service than the Word of God was. Scriptures were twisted. I’m not speaking of everyone I knew, but it seemed that many were obsessed with either pseudo (but prideful) intellectualism or emotionally expressive, yet empty praise. I saw the people gain a sense of importance by visiting the prophecy mike over and over. I heard SGMers using all the right words just like Mormons do, but their focus was predominantly on the local church, not on Christ. They had a couple of outreach projects that only a few were involved in, while most of the people were involved in church related tasks to keep the church functioning like cleaning the hall, ushering, singing or caring for the children. Not that those things are not important, but there wasn’t a focus on sharing the gospel with others in meaningful ways in the community or in the world at large. Not like you see in healthier churches. I saw how the people took good care of their pastor’s needs and even the needs of small group leaders. The hierarchy came first. I saw people in really awful situations who were not given the time of day by the pastors. I saw the harsh man-made rules some members put on others. I heard the haughty words spewing from the mouths of pharisees. I saw the messed up courtship scene. I saw how some people are more equal than others. In short, I saw an unhealthy organization parading as a church.
So I left.
And I can’t for the life of me understand why, as this circus of a “church” continues playing itself out, people continue attending SGM. All I can figure is that some people just need to have a man spelling it all out for them because it’s new territory to just walk in faith.
I happen to know that some local SGM pastors, themselves egotistical charismatic leaders in their own right, are entertaining thoughts of leaving SGM Corporate in the interest of keeping as many of their own members intact as possible. Paychecks and egos are at stake you know.
So while C.J. continues his idiotic narcissistic game-playing with SGM, I think he’s going to find he’s been abandoned by many as this scam unravels.
This church is likely going to split into fragments before this is over. The least stressful thing would be for SGM members to prayerfully seek God’s face and ask Him to guide them and their friends to a healthier church body elsewhere before this degrades even further.
This is only going to get worse. The hand writing is on the wall.
Patricia #157 – You asked why people stay in SGM. If you are truly interested, I can only answer for myself. I was attracted by the fact that it was Charismatic but not “weird” (mind you, this was over 20 years ago), and that there was such an emphasis put on integrity, humility, and accountability by the pastors. This was refreshing to me coming out of a “weird” charismatic background with no emphasis on those things whatsoever – and a Baptist church where I learned that the pastor had been living in adultery for 30 years. I was told – and believed – that that would never happen HERE. The reason why I stayed can be summed up in one word: the people. I had built some truly wonderful friendships over the years. And, even when I saw little things that seemed “off” (which I now see as big things from the outside), I would never have thought of leaving because nearly all my relationships were there, and I truly loved the people.
I am no longer part of SGM, but I just want to add one thing for those newcomers/outsiders who cannot seem to understand why anyone would come or stay. Those of us in SGM for a long time still LOVE the people there – including many of the CGLs and pastors. So when people make sweeping statements like “all the pastors are controlling and legalistic”, etc., I am still tempted to jump to their defense because, for the most part, that is not what I personally experienced. And because I see no LOVE in your posts or seeming concern for the people in SGM.
There are many newer people reading here – many still in SGM. Can I ask that you keep in mind that they still love their friends and pastors and that a lot of this stuff can be shocking and offputting.
I hope that helps to explain a little.
Stunned in #137: AMEN ! I so agree with your comments and your wise counsel.
I have so much to say about all of this, but I have chosen to remain silent for the most part. I don’t want to end up submitting one (or more) of these exceedingly long posts that are so overwhelming that no one wants to take the time to read !
@Patricia in #157 …. couldn’t have said it better myself.
I am not new to this site but I am new to commenting here. In fact, I’m pretty sure, it’s my first time. My wife Julie from voiceofgrace has commented various times over the years. I guess I feel inclined to comment because there has been some discussion in the comment section of this thread about Covenant Fellowship Church in Pa. We attended this church for a little over 7 years. We attended for the first time when they were still in the Gauntlet Center in Newtown Square. It was too far of a drive from Delaware so we started attending the Cornerstone Church that was a plant that went out from Covenant.It was located in Chester,Pa . Arie Mangrum was our pastor and we LOVED this church. We were there for a while when Covenant Fellowship built a building about 15 minutes from Cornerstone. During this time we started bringing a co-worker to Covenant for ALPHA because there were more people her age.In the process we started attending Covenant as our home church.Long story short once Covenant was so close to the location of Cornerstone, Arie’s gifting was being reviewed. I know Arie would say he had his own questions but I would venture to say those questions were most likely implanted by Dave Harvey and those under his direction at the time. NO ONE at Cornerstone would have questioned Arie’s ability or gifting as a pastor. He was and is a very good guy. The church was disassembled after being in existance for years and after be self sustained financially. Covenant absorbed those that would start going to Covenant but many just went elsewhere or stopped going to church after being left without the church they had grown to love. We were there when Bill Patton stepped down for the second time. In fact his son was in our Caregroup at the time. His son was and is a great guy. Bill seemed to be a good guy as well. He did stick out though as one of the few charismatics left once the reformed doctrine started taking center stage. In fact Joe Mcmullen was a charismatic as well. I’m not saying that is why they are gone but it does seem that if you question those in leadership or represent the past or have a following of people that represent the way things used to be at Covenant you are replaced with yes men that don’t know anything other than the current way the regime works. I write this as one who was very active in SGM. We were helpers with the youth,caregroup leaders in singles and college age,in a discipleship group, and we were being groomed to go to the PC to plant a church in Atlantic Canada. In our years there we saw alot of strange things that we didn’t view as strange because we were not just drinking the kool-aid we were chugging it. I loved and still love many of the people we met and ministered with. We learned some good things there and had some good times. We did however have alot to unlearn and still are struggling through undoing the legalism that was so ingrained in our thinking due to the amount of focus on our sin and on accountability in our small group context. I could go on and on but just wanted to add my 2 cents about how the leaders were treated in our particular church. They were used and discarded like trash on the side of the road. Many good lives ruined by a faulty system where men are more interested in pleasing the guy at the top instead of leading out of conviction or principle.That’s all for now.
Aaron Morris
Aaron, I would have a hard time saying that they were treated as trash, and I doubt that they would say that either. Did you sit down with the pastors about your questions and concerns? Even though I’m no longer at Covenant Fellowship and would share a number of your concerns, I’m also concerned that you’re misrepresenting the pastors there and their motives. Mistakes are not the same as malignancy (which is how your post comes across). And knowing you, I’d guess that you would have sat down with them to talk – I’d be interested in knowing their response.
20 Years and Aaron ~
I was at church with both of you and yes, 20 yrs., I know that many of the guys I mentioned chose to leave for the reasons you mentioned – their emphasis on grace being greater than sin. I remember Alan leaving because he wanted to…and Joe doing the same. I agree with you totally and know they left because they didn’t fit the mold. I think they made the right decision and are better off for it.
Same happened with our family. We didn’t fit the mold anymore. Leaving was one of the worst experiences of my life after more than 20 years of SGM.
Thankfully, there is life after SGM, but I feel I need to go through some “de-programming.” I am more than relieved to be “out” and to be “free.” I can now have a junk drawer and send my kids to public or private school without feeling guilt and condemnation and questioning myself at every turn. I am learning to make decisions about life direction, school, church, etc. by seeking God myself and am enjoying the freedom of not being questioned and cautioned at every turn. In other words, I believe I’m learning to walk by the Spirit myself! It has been so wonderful.
Hope all is well with you and yours…and that you are enjoying a new-found grace and freedom in Christ.
JP, here are my words verbatim from post #157.
“What I’m about to say does not apply to everyone attending an SGM church, but I will say that what I saw characterizes the local church I attended as a whole.”
My concerns show far more love for the people in SGM than if I whitewashed the tomb they’re in. I feel sad seeing people I do love go through the circus the pastors are putting them through, but more than that, I feel sad for time wasted in a group that is more like a cult than a church.
I think the question is whether an organization formed by men seeking praise unto themselves is truly part of “the church” Christ founded. By their fruits you shall know them.
This is not to say there are not true Christians within the SGM congregations. I am sure there are. What I am saying is that the leadership has been corrupt from the beginning and it is my opinion that this “organization” is apostate and therefore, not representative of the true church.
Matt. 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”
Is SGM a cult? The burden of proof is on you. Questions to ask yourself:
1. Does the group leader have a special charm and persuasion that its people find inexplicable and hard to resist? Yes. Mahaney is a celebrity often receiving thunderous applause when he speaks.
2. Do the people in the group seem a bit too friendly, loving, smiling and happy? Yes. New people are love bombed (a technique used in cult recruiting, in which membership in the cult is intimately linked to love and attachment which engender complete loyalty to the cause.)
3. Do the people in the group offer to help with almost anything church centered? Yes. Most are rarely involved with service outside SGM that spreads the Gospel to unbelievers. They mostly recruit people from other churches.
4. Does the group claim to have a special mission or calling that is unique and not found elsewhere? Yes. No other church emphasizes both the charismatic and reformed. The church music was created within SGM ranks. All pastors must attend the church’s own special college for SGM training.
5. Have many people and/or leaders have left the group and if so, why? Hundreds if not more. In fact SGM has a largely negative Internet presence as a result of people sharing concerns over abuse.
6. Are there any checks and balances of the leadership and power structure? No, the congregations have no input.
7. Does the group have a constitution or laws of government? No. If after the WikiLeak incident, one is formed, it appears that the people will have little voice in the content.
8. Do quite a few people talk about their pastor a lot, as though he is God? Yes.
9. What is the group’s view on leadership authority and discipleship? The pastors are central and the congregant’s job is to make his pastor happy as described in Mahaney’s sermon “The Happiest Place on Earth”. Quote by C.J. Mahaney regarding the congregation’s role, “The effectiveness of pastoral ministry is dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry.”
10. What is the group’s view on dating and marriage? Rigid styles of courtship are heavily encouraged and young people are carefully monitored in the congregation. Women are under the covering of their husbands and fathers, and have very little voice outside the sphere of things pertaining to women.
11. Is there an elitist mentality? Yes. Many view SGM as superior due to its understanding of the importance of both the charismatic and the reformed, along with recognition of giftings. This is used to keep people from considering other churches. Many who have left SGM were shunned. The SGM atmosphere is pharisaical.
12. How do your parents or close relations outside of the group feel about it? Many are concerned for those they love in SGM churches.
13. What are the finances of the group? Are there secrets? Yes, see http://www.wartburgwatch.com on Mahaney and Al Mohler.
14. Does the group motivate its members mostly through fear and guilt? Yes. Sin-sniffing is common.
15. Have any articles been written about the group? Yes, the Internet has thousands of negative postings with several blogs focused on the abuses.
16. Are there disgruntled former members? Yes, a great many.
17. Do the disgruntled former members all more or less tell a similar story to why they left? Yes, most describe pastoral abuse but even sexual abuse has occurred and been ignored by the leadership.
18. Did they leave because they disagreed with either the teachings or the practices of the group or its leader? Yes.
19. How was the disagreement handled? Through shunning and shaming. No direct acknowledgement of abuses toward individual members has arisen even after the WikiLeaks expose.
20. Does your gut level feeling about this group tell you that something is wrong? Yes.
Questions taken from Paul Martin’s book Cult Proofing Your Kids.
Re: part of Aaron’s post in #161:
“We did however have alot to unlearn and still are struggling through undoing the legalism that was so ingrained in our thinking due to the amount of focus on our sin and on accountability in our small group context.”
and
Part of Marian’s post in #162:
“Thankfully, there is life after SGM, but I feel I need to go through some “de-programming.” I am more than relieved to be “out” and to be “free.” I can now have a junk drawer and send my kids to public or private school without feeling guilt and condemnation and questioning myself at every turn. I am learning to make decisions about life direction, school, church, etc. by seeking God myself and am enjoying the freedom of not being questioned and cautioned at every turn. In other words, I believe I’m learning to walk by the Spirit myself! It has been so wonderful.”
This is such a common thread—having to “unlearn” and go through “deprogramming”. I experienced that after only 3 years in Gathering of Believers. Another common thread is the exhilarating freedom that is experienced after leaving—learning to commune with and hear God for oneself….and finally beginning to experience the abundant life that God intended us to live. Anyone or any group that teaches a gospel with an emphasis on “sin-sniffing”, condemnation and over-the-top accountability to people is not teaching the true gospel.
I’m so glad to read on here that many have found their way out. Praise God!
20 Years, Alan (my beloved pastor in so many ways) was PUSHED. Trust me on this one.
Marion, glad you feel free (are free!!!)… and wasn’t it just a crime that even a “junk drawer” could cause condemnation….
what kind of church is it that can make you feel that way, let alone big (personal) reasons like whether or not to homeschool…
we were all such robots back then…
JP said, ” Those of us in SGM for a long time still LOVE the people there – including many of the CGLs and pastors.”
AMEN!!!!!!! Love with a great big capital L.
stunned…
You may be right, as we all know, even when an SGM man says he is leaving on his own accord, he may be towing the party line, even made to feel like his own conscience is telling him to leave when it is not – due to pressures and suggestions from above..
I am no longer shocked by anything that happens in this bowel, i mean, church, movement!
1. Although the heavy research continues, albeit not engaged here for numerous reasons, an advisorial.
2. Is it me? Am I missing something, but Mr. Dave Harvey’s posts have gone poof over at http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/default.aspx
3. Working through the Detwiler documents for the fourth time. Mr. Dave Harvey is in the thick of a long, long inner story of confrontation with Mr. Mahaney. For a long time, Mr. Harvey stood alongside Mr. Detwiler concerning Mr. Mahaney’s hypocrisy and self-insulations from analysis. They really are worth studying.
4. Back on point. Am I missing something with Mr. Harvey’s disappearance?
Marian, if you were there 20 years, we probably know each other. I was there for 15.
Correction, Mr. Harvey’s posts are there, but on secondary pages. They’ve been dis-featured on the primary page, however. :scratch
Agreed, Stunned.
JP, your statement here puzzles me.
“I was attracted by the fact that it was Charismatic but not “weird” (mind you, this was over 20 years ago), and that there was such an emphasis put on integrity, humility, and accountability by the pastors.”
Accountability? Integrity? By the pastors????? This blog is full of posts where named people share firsthand how their pastors were not held accountable and how many of them lacked integrity in how they handled child abuse cases.
And how is C.J. being held accountable right now? He’s still on the payroll and getting a nice vacation to boot.
If I hadn’t chosen the name “Blue Sky”, my nickname was going to be “Junk Drawer”!
JP, I do love many of the people I know at SGM and I’m not an outsider. I attended more recently than twenty years ago and I know what’s going on now. I think you misunderstood my post. Here is what I said.
“What I’m about to say does not apply to everyone attending an SGM church, but I will say that what I saw characterizes the local church I attended as a whole.”
One point I would make about Mahaney attending another church is that it might make sense for Mahaney to not attend CLC on Sundays for a number of reasons. These reasons could include Josh Harris and other speakers not being fully comfortable stating some things if Mahaney was there and also since he was such a revered leader at least some people would still be doing the “man worship” that they did of him. Thus it may be a good idea IMO for Mahaney to attend another church on Sunday.
With that being said, Mahaney should be submitting to the “authority” and discipline of his pastors at CLC since that is what he taught. I agree with others in the hypocrisy of Mahaney moving churches especially while he is still being paid by SGM full salary though on a leave of absence. Just my thought.
Donald, I still see them… he just isn’t posting so its getting pushed further from the top. You should consider giving an update at OldLife on the Nevin Mahaney post. There has been a few comments there today.
@Wowzers, copy. WILCO (=will comply). Over.
JP, We’ve talked on earlier threads periodically about what drew us to SGM. I definitely still love folks at CLC — and greeted some gladly working at a booth at the MoCo Fair this evening. It’s nice to catch up with people I knew in my 20 years there. Some old friends keep in touch; some have dropped me completely; most just don’t have room or time or inclination to talk with people outside.
DK, I loved your post #150 — so many voices are silenced at CLC, because of gender or marital status or “not fitting the mold”. I’m glad you’re in a place where you hear those voices.
Anne – CLC 1986-2007
A little off topic, but one excerpt from Josh Harris’ message today, at a little past 15:00…
I realize Mr. Harris’ words don’t do much of anything for many here until accompanied by action consistent with repentance on the part of those who have been spiritually abusive, but – progress?
Don – will call you in the am!! My area code is 480. Looking forward to speaking with you! Irv
Don – forgot to add — I have all of the Brent papers in PDF files if you are interested. Email at irv911help at yahoo dot com and I will forward them to you. Irv
Irv, copy. On standby to receive.
Lauren #171 – Sorry if I confused you. I loved hearing about humility, integrity and accountability from the pulpit when I first started attending. It made me trust the leaders. Obviously there is now a serious disconnect in the life application – by CJ in particular. Which is why I’m very glad I’m no longer there!!
My main point was that what kept me there so long was the relationships. It’s hard for people who have invested years of their lives with people they love to just pick up and leave – despite the hypocrisy in the upper echelons.
Marion, 20years, and some others from Coenant Fullofit,
I bet we might know one another as well.
What all of you have said about Bill Patton.
He was a very complexed personality but he didn’t deserve the treatment he received.
I was at a wedding there in the early to mid ‘2000’s and I had a brief chitchat with him with him remembering our family was the first non church plant people to join the church.
He was like a spent shell of his former self and my heart ached for him because he has so much potential warts and all and his entire life would be spent humiliated (far far from propley humbled, rather stripped of what was rightfully his by people that were more warted and less gifted as though they had any right picking Bill P.’s splinters with the logs in their own eyes.
Alan Redrup said some nasty things to my husband and me; things that sounded curseish (just made up another word) Thank God my Heavenly Father doesn’t take AR’s pronouncements seriously.
Who remains standing in all this?
Dave Harvey and CJ Mahaney,they remind me of the big lazy birds that lay an egg in the nest of another bird and when the egg hatches, the bird will push the legitimate peeps out of the nest and the adult bird will raise the birds as its own.
And look at the fine mess that the grown up bird has made.
Marian #162–
As in many of these situations, I believe it would be correct to say that there more to Joe M. leaving than was disclosed.
Patricia – I wasn’t sure what your relationship with SGM was – how long you attended, etc. – I have a hard time keeping up with everyone here! The second part of my post wasn’t directly toward you, just addressing the general tone I’ve heard around here from some who have said they are outsiders.
I’m glad you still love the SGMers! :) And, you too ACME. I actually knew you a little bit back in the day. Hmmm, now I probably have you wondering…
Patricia – P.S. I actually agree with you about what you saw in your church and was not disputing that. I have seen the same things in SGM, but I see them more now that I’m gone – I didn’t see so clearly when I was there. I wish I had had more discrenment when first attending but alas I didn’t! And, I’ve only been gone for 2 years – I started 20ish years ago.
Just to answer Kris’ question about how people in SGM can stay and handle the hypocrisy, here is what I have learned about myself and friends who still totally support the system:
1. When there is such a strong emphasis on gossip and slander the situation with megan or Brent is categorized as ‘personal’ and makes members very uncomfortable not only discussing but public ally challenging
2. The typical members are trained to look for ‘evidences of grace’ or to be do gooders ….so when the SGM utopian christian bubble is cracking ….looking at the ugly reality of the real heroes of SGM (not Jesus) does not appeal to most members
3. The community is so strong that the thought of leaving friends and family is just terrifying (ask me)
4. Lastly I think it is just easier to let the cool kids always be cool and entitled to whatever they tell you they feel entitled to.
Just my four cents.
To Josh Harris,
I am nearly finished listening to your message from today.
“You are holy. You are beloved.” THIS in reference to US!
“We are no longer defined by our lying and our sin.”
I can’t thank you enough for obeying what God is directing to you. This is water in a desert.
:word
@Wowzers @#175. Mission accomplished at oldlife. A few timed-rounds put on target. Thanks for the heads-up.
@Wowzers, correction, #177. “Rounds on target.” Dr. Duncan and Dr. Trueman grandly erred, but that analysis will be posted elsewhere. Thanks again.
Patricia@#164, that was a take-down post. Added it to a 100-page document that is being created. The post warrants analysis. Thanks. Homerun post.
Wow, now our own Mr. Veitch is creating documents… :D
Luna, weighty themes emerge if one assesses the 1000s and 1000s of posts here. Not all are weighty. Some are tangents and some–even–are discreditable. However, many and most merit review. They reveal historic themes. They must be carefully weighed. While a CLC-blogger, this week in fact, “waved off” the Detwiler docs and Survivor blogs…that’s impoverished, undeliberative and unscholarly. That CLC-blogger, this week, was seriously dismissive of the Detwiler inquiry and these blogs. Self-protective too. I dislike some posts here for several reasons. Yet, the themes are there throughout 1000s of posts. Again, “what are the facts?” The research continues. On standby for a call from Irv in AM. Regards.
ACME #179
We were in care group together. We were both trying to fit in a mold neither one of us fit! You just contacted my husband off-line. I’ll be in touch! So glad you are in a better place. Love your posts and you.
exbritpat #162-
I don’t believe the leaders consciously were thinking I will treat these guys like trash, but many people, leaders and members alike, are pushed to the outside and go quickly from the inner circle to the “out of sight out of mind” category. Bill I believe was used differently. Maybe I’m reading too much into this but I always got the feeling that Bill was used strategically to keep the “old” original members around. Bill was ocassionally paraded up to the stage and “honored” for being the original church planting pastor that made it all possible for us to be there. He always looked uncomfortable in his own skin in those contexts. He was different when he taught classes or led seminars on Prophesy. He was a strong confident,passionate leader. There were the few faithful followers that still I think secretly longed for the good old days before the humiliation of their beloved leader that they still love and respect. I can’t imagine how Bill felt as was mentioned earlier going from C.J. visiting him when he came to Covenant, going on family vacations together, to being sidelined and unimportant. I’m sure Arie would not say he was treated like trash either. He would most likely be humble in his presentation of how things went down concerning Cornerstone. But I always got the sense that guys like Arie that sat under the teaching of SGM continued to get more and more insecure in there identity and gifting. You know always trying to be better. Always trying to improve instead of embracing their calling and gifting with confidence. I believe in SGM’s desire to keep people humble through constant introspection they created some very insecure people that should have been growing in their new identity in Christ. “exbritpat” to respond to your comment,we did sit down with multiple pastors before leaving but this was not the topic of conversation when we left. These are things that we didn’t really want to admit until we were gone. While we were there we were so in love with SGM that it was not until we were gone that we could see things clearer. On a side note,I don’t feel that you need to reveal your identity but, I find it strange that you would disagree with me in support of SGM but yet not say who you are. Apparently you know me. I know why many on here are not giving their idenity due to fear because of the hardships they have had. I’m o.k. with that and hope they experience true freedom someday to not really care who knows their opinions on any given topic. I do however question why SGM supporters conceal thir identity. Anyway, maybe you’re not a supporter. Maybe it was just my tone or perceived misrepresentation you didn’t like. I’m truly not trying to make things look worse than they are or were. We had some really great times in SGM and also had some really difficult times due to our experience there. Hope all is well for you.
Aaron Morris
Aaron, you are very welcome here. And you are illustrating a pattern that I’ve often seen repeated in SGM history (as described on this blog and as I’ve witnessed.) SGM is like evil witches as described by CS Lewis in The Magician’s Nephew, “…not interested in things or people unless they can use them…terribly practical.”
Treating people created in God’s image as useful objects to be discarded when “used up” is a hideous evil. Hideous. Child rape is that pattern in one of its very worst forms. But the other forms are evil as well. I think many, many people, those who have posted here and many who haven’t would say they have felt used by SGM. I have.
Evil.
OK, now I need a cup of coffee.
Aaron, amen about Arie.
Fried Fish,
Comment #180 – that was encouraging, thanks for sharing.
So I was at Worship God 11 (hate me all you want, I registered and paid way back in March), CJ’s name was only mentioned once in the main sessions, as best as I can remember. There seemed to be a greater focus on Jesus, the Gospel, and Philippians 2:3. Ken Boer also prayed for reconciliation “for all those we have hurt”. Or something along those lines.
My pastor (a 20 yr member of CLC, 5 years on a church plant now) also addressed the situation two weeks ago. He said he and the elders have been asking for clarification on SGM’s relationship with our church for two years with no substantive response…He didn’t seem to pleased with that. He did say that our local church’s financial statements were available to any members that requested them.
Anyhow, just thought I’d add my bit.
Marion wrote in #163 “by seeking God myself and am enjoying the freedom of not being questioned and cautioned at every turn.”
Exactly. I believe that sgm fosters a system of fear and makes the people afraid of making decisions or discussing situations–instead of being free in Christ and walking by the Spirit.
And Aaron said they had to relearn and break off the legalism after 7 years at sgm so it certainly is a process. We didn’t learn to be legalistic and fearful over night and it will take a long time to relearn what God wants us to….I’m still relearning after all these years away.
Line upon line, precept upon precept…whether you are learning to be legalistic or learning not to be legalistic.
Thanks Phoenix! I have the feeling there are many like myself that have followed this blog for years but have never commented.
Tom said, “hate me all you want, I registered and paid way back in March.”
ha ha ha. My first laugh of the morning. Thank you! No worries, no hate here.
I’m glad to hear good things of your experience. Nothing better than to hear of people talking about Jesus!
It is also good news to hear of churches that are working to be more balanced. I wonder if each of the churches are a bit different. Would it be OK to tell us which church this is?
Aaron ~
Amen in your last comment about both Bill and Arie! I would add the same about Alan and Joe too. They were “used.” That is exactly how I feel – used. There are many stories behind that, but telling them would take more time and emotional energy than I have today.
Stunned, thanks :)
It’s the Sovereign Grace Church of Frederick. About 35 minutes north of CLC. About 30% of the members are originally from CLC.
The senior pastor is Chris Silard.
I’ve noticed a definite change in the sermons in the past year. Less book references and more Bible references. I think he only had one quote or reference that Sunday that wasn’t in the Bible. Bibles have also been coming out more at CG and at our other fellowship times. We even had some teaching on relationships that only used the Bible. It’s been really great.
Little OT, but Fried Fish excerpt from Joshua’s message was great. I really highly commend his entire message from yesterday. I think it would be good for both former SGMers and current SGMers. Probably be online soon.
Joshua is doing a fantastic job leading us through all this, and his last few sermons just show his heart and care for all those struggling with this situation and CLC/SGM’s past indiscretions. We also said goodbye to Brian and Mike (CJ’s SILs) yesterday. They both addressed the congregation, but besides them sharing their affection for us as a church, it was largely void of content and no further clarity on why they are leaving so early in the process.
anSGMmember, did Mike or Brian say what they are moving on to? Either of them already have jobs lined up? (Not that you have to in any way, but I know this was a concern for many people when Brian and Mike stepped down.)
I agree anSGMmember – Josh’s message was very good yesterday.
This two-part series entitled ‘The Glue of Christian Unity’ / “What keeps Christians united even in disagreement?…” — extremely appropriate during this time as two of our pastors have resigned this week.
The message is already online as of yesterday afternoon:
http://www.covlife.org/resources/3955985-Christ_Above_All_and_in_All
You are correct, Brian and Mike’s words to the congregation–not on the audio–were largely void of content other than their love for the church members, appreciation for their time at CLC, etc. The stated reasons for disagreement and why they had to resign were communicated in the letter to all CLC members earlier last week … I believe that is on this blog, two or three posts ago.
anSGMmember,
It is online already, it is very good. (Josh’s teaching)
Stunned: no real details from Mike or Brian … they indicated they will be joining a different SGM church, but exactly where is unknown at this point as they both try to figure out if they will transition to another pastoral job right way, or go to seminary or some other training/schooling opportunity.
Both Mike and Brian are staying at CLC until early September, wrapping up their responsibilities, transitioning as smoothly as possible I suppose (what amazing men to have the conviction to have to resign, but doing it in such a way to serve CLC as much as possible too!)
Hey Aaron,
Thanks for your clarification. As far as anonymity, I suspected you might question it – for me (and I suspect others) it is more about not complicating relationships because at this point I think people are prone to over-reaction to disagreement (for example, CJ’s sons-in-law). I’ll find you on fb at some point soon.
As far as what you posted, I think the way you stated some things was more inflammatory than what you would have intended, and I think that that has been true of a number of comments at this blog. As far as comments in general here, I enjoy reading the comments to get a better perspective on people’s first-hand experiences but sometimes strong vocab and projected motives (2nd or 3rd hand stories) make it hard to separate good stuff from unhelpful stuff. I’m with Jim (sgmrefuge) in that if comments here aren’t careful, they can make it easy for the good things on these blogs to be ignored outright.
Just to be clear: from what I heard, Mike’s and Brian’s next step is to either go into ministry somewhere or partake in additional training/schooling for ministry somewhere.
Tom-#201
Perhaps your pastor should stop sending your local church’s “tithe” to SGM until they clearly answered his concerns. I’ll bet the response to that would be substantive and take less than two years.
It’s just the beginning, you said, “they indicated they will be joining a different SGM church.”
Can I ask how they indicated this? I mean, would everyone who heard this say that they were giving this indication to the audience or could that just be something you read in to? I am not trying to doubt you, by any means, but would really like some clarity on this. I am guessing they did not come out right and say that beyond any shadow of a doubt that they were joining another SGM church, but can you share with us what they said to indicate they will be joining a different SGM church?
I am not trying to be cynical about what you said about them being amazing men, but giving their 2 or 3 week notice and working until that time is over is common practice in the business world. I don’t know if it’s necessarily praise worthy beyond what anyone else from Burger King to IBM does.
Marion #205, I’m with ya. Exbritpat #211 I understand what you mean. I don’t mean to be inflammatory. I guess the further I get away from my SGM experience I think that I have less of a filter and feel less of a need for a filter. Often while attending Covfel I and many others flat out lied by being too gracious in various situations. Sometimes I found I did not speak the truth about what I saw because I knew it would not have been politically correct. I think many used terminology that was so carefully worded as to not offend that it actually changed what they should have said to something much more acceptable and far from what they actually felt about a given topic. You know, I should have let my yes be yes and my no be no. I understand your anonymity and I also understand by me commenting with my name and picture here I am risking offending friends I have that still attend Covfel. Having said that I feel it is important for them to know I am not afraid and actually quite free to comment here. Definately add me on FB as we are living in Canada and not so sure coffee will ever happen. :) Blessings!
Just saw your next post, thank you so much for being willing to dialogue with me. I know it’s not always easy to spend time talking with someone may disagree with you on some points. (Though I think of probably the top 59 points in life, we are in total agreement about.)
If both of these men indicated that they are going to become part of another SGM church, and they said they going into ministry somewhere else, are they leading the people to believe that that ministry will be in SGM?
QE2, excellent suggestion. I find it amazing that SGM hasn’t bothered giving this local church a straight answer in two years. What else did they have going on that was more important than the local churches (supposedly God’s highest priority)?
Aaron, great post in #216 about being so careful which words you chose, you sometimes took the truth right out of what you were saying.
Just a comment about anonymity- not everyone keeps their anonymity out of fear. Some of us do because (as in my case) my story is not my story alone. I have children and an ex whose story is wrapped up in mine. At the moment, out of respect to them I do not go public with my name. Some day I might but I feel as if I owe them that respect right now. I know there are others in that situation.
Stunned
aka Stunned
Tom, that makes me so happy to hear! (The teaching from the bible and the bibles being opened.) Thanks for sharing.
Josh Harris is really walking in the Spirit all the way around during this time. Honesty and transparency, humility (wow, he should have written the book–definitely not CJ). I have to say that if I were anywhere near Gaithersburg, I would attend CLC now and wouldn’t have a couple of months ago. He is meriting trust. I love the way he spoke about the sil’s. I also love the way he spoke about us as saints. I love the way he hasn’t backed down on doing hard things.
CJ, on the other hand, has shown us exactly how seriously he is taking this “season of reflection” in his last update. Were he truly seeking out conviction of sin and hearing from God, he wouldn’t be ministering on behalf of SGM or anything else ANYWHERE. He is just waiting for the Harvey to get enough people to let him pass because he’s CJ. He is the most stiff-necked person I’ve ever known. He should write a book on True Stiff-neckedility.
Gotcha Stunned aka Stunned. :)
Stunned: concerning your point about 2 or 3 weeks notice … Mike and Brian are continuing to work at CLC, making the transition as smooth as possible over what looks like a 4 or 5 week timeframe–they did not just give two weeks notice.
[Timeline Details (from my understanding)]
From Josh’s message on Sunday, he indicated that he told his kids on Monday [August 8] that Mike and Brian were resigning … also Josh and the pastors tried for hours and hours over a couple/few(?) days to persuade Mike and Brian from not resigning–that must have been around the August 3-7 timeframe?
So without knowing the exact dates, it looks like Mike and Brian officially resigned (informed the CLC pastors) the week of August 1-5, possibly earlier because I do remember hearing there were vacation schedules among all of these pastors involved around this timeframe (late July, early August) … I think they may have officially communicated to the CLC pastors they were resigning the last week of July but weren’t able to meet to discuss it as a pastoral team until the first week in August?
The exact date their resignation was communicated is not known to me, but assuming they work through the first week of September at CLC [which they indicated Sunday morning] from what I gather they are working at least 5 weeks past when they ‘gave notice’.
Maybe that’s not praise worthy?
–
About your other question, they said [can’t remember if it was just Mike or just Brian or both] from the pulpit yesterday that they are looking at other SGM churches to transition their families to. And just so there is no confusion, this is the exact quote from Tuesday’s BIG meeting, where Brian/Mike communicated their resignation in person to all of the care group members who are in Brian/Mike care groups:
{Question: where are you going?}
“The desire for us both is to be further trained and continue in pastoral ministry within Sovereign Grace.”
I think that’s as clear as it can be. Sorry for not just communicating that the first time.
@Tom
Ask your pastor why they don’t just distribute the financials to every member like a normal church. The whole ‘available to any members that requested them’ makes it awkward for people to ask, especially given experiences people have had in asking for them in the past. If there is nothing to hide, then be up front and hand ’em out.
Don’t hate you for attending Worship God ’11, but I question how they can possibly have a greater focus on the Gospel?
Just the Beginning, thank you so much for taking all the time to answer my questions. I am not trying to be tedious so I truly appreciate you being patient with me. And I am so glad to hear of the great reports coming out of CLC!
PS, you said, “I think that’s as clear as it can be. Sorry for not just communicating that the first time.”
You did a great job communicating, even the first time around. Sometimes I have found in the past that my SGM pastors were not always up front and upright in their communication, that is why I asked to have more understanding. Not that you were inadequate in the least.
So from this most people who heard it would believe that neither of these guys had any plans to minister anywhere else. Would you say this is correct? (Again, I don’t know if the word “desire” is meaning- yeah, this is what I want to do and am planning on doing” or “well, I’d like to but I already have other plans”
Aaron, so glad you got my aka. I gave myself a little smile at it (I am a dork) and was hoping someone else would get it.)
@Stunned, #226: from what I gather as of last Tuesday’s BIG meeting, Mike and Brian did not have plans in place yet as to where they might serve next in ministry….or if they were going to go to seminary or some other training for ministry next.
In other words, they were still looking at their options…trying to determine what their next steps were going to be.
>Donald re:#195
I too did a long study of the blogs. You can certainly see a history develop. I did that and took out the names so as to avoid prejudices. I ignored the names of the pastors and the names of the churches. What emerged was a system that with some serious faults. There was a thread that ran through certain churches and certain pastors.
For instance one pastor was brought before the congregation twice in Fairfax church and then three times in Florida church. Pretty obvious this is a problem with pastor. But someone up top wants to keep him. I know of no other pastors that have been publicly admonished and still remained around.
Another church had over half a dozen pastors “degifted” in half a dozen years. Obviously this was an abuse of power from the higher ups. An example of what happens when Apostolic players wield their power indiscriminately.
I took out names and churches and just looked at issues, trying to ignore who was responsible and what the motives were. It was not a nice picure. Then, in the light of Brents documents, you can see the development of the power trips developing at the top and you see a dark picture developing when that power struggle is worked out in local churches.
When I went to my current sgm pastor with my findings he knew little about it. After his shock, he explained that after the magazine and celebrations were shut down he only spoke with other churches 1x per year at the pastor’s conference. And even then there was so much activity that he rarely had time to do more than take a coffee with an old friend, so he never got to discuss real issues about what was happening in the churches.
I took notes and worked my way through hours and pages of postings. I did it so I could understand and confront my pastors. Donald, if you are doing the same you could help us all if you published your study on web. When everyone knows what is happening, and the tinge of partiality or bitterness is gone, everyone will be able to see what is broken and demand a fix. This is something that needs the congregations to insist on transparency and things to be fixed. A good publication will be the best tool for us to use with our churches.
there was an SGM staffer who started her own film company. I think she no longer works for SGM. it is interesting to note she just happens to be in Cuba and the Dominican Republic this week. wonder how much SGM pays her to go along?
@Walking Wounded,
Good point. I honestly hadn’t considered that until the other day. They may have been handed out at the members’ meeting several months ago, but I wasn’t in attendance, so I do not know for sure. I intend on asking.
In reference to WG11, I don’t really know how to explain it. It seemed to be more God-centered (with the intent of glorifying) than any other conference or teaching out of SGM (aside from my local church) that I’ve heard.
Maybe it was just me. Maybe it wasn’t. After this conference, and the youth retreat I helped staff, I am more convicted than ever that I, “have lost my first love”.
Did SGM bring about this conviction? No. God did, through the Holy Spirit. SGM played only a minor role in this. I am confident that God would have convicted me in some other manner had I never entered an SGM church. Why? Because of the promises in 2nd Corinthians 3:18, “And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit” (NIV)
I guess I got off on a tangent.
inthenickoftime, that sounds like an amazing bit of work you’ve done. Would you, also, want to share it with us? It may help many see better.
Also, I find that some churches are more healthy and others not so. Would you want to, and I totally understand if you wouldn’t want to do this, mind sharing which church you are in? I find comfort in hearing that some churches are not caught up in the messier… don’t even know how to describe it… the messier messes you are finding in some churches.
Lee, are you saying right out that this film maker has been hired by SGM, CJ or someone else related to SGM to work? Or is this a guess?
Tom, amen! Tangent away if it’s about God and regaining your first love!!!!!!!
Stunned,
I would say that it is an “educated guess”. This person worked for SGM for years, wrote books, became an expert on being single, and started her own film company. On her Twitter feed she says she has been in Cuba and the Domincan Republic for the past week. She is shooting film. I am nearly positive she must be filming CJ and crew.
I wonder just how much SGM spends on these trips?
I keep hearing many great things about what Josh is doing.
And I’m concerned that its about Josh. People are still looking to ONE guy for their next move.
In my next church after SGM, the ONLY thing I hear about the senior pastor is about how good his sermon was. He’s not running the show.
I think CLC members are still very much looking to their leader…their “pope.”
People, please don’t replace CJ with Josh. That’s not healthy.
Sidney,
I noticed the same thing as well. I hope it doesn’t turn into that.
(Don’t get me wrong. I love Josh and I believe he is doing good things. But, part of doing good things is going to be making it so that nobody looks to him.)
@Sidney: very good point. The other thing, and I’m really trying not to look at everything in a cynical way, is that his sermon was wonderful, thought-provoking, and challenging, but I couldn’t help but think that the apparently new “don’t keep other Christians at arm’s length just because they disagree with you” perspective is, once again, just in time to be applied to the Mahaney clan. I guess it will carry more weight once people start seeing it in action with just regular members, but I suppose talking about it is a good start.
@Sidney,
I think it may seem that way at the moment, and I think it may be more a level of sympathy more than idolization (given that Josh is, in many ways, left to clean up the mess that CJ has created)…just my 2 cents as a current CLCer ;)
but, then again, I’m not one who tends to keep pastors on a pedestal…so that could be part of it :wink:
I just finished listening to Josh’s sermon. Before I comment further I would clarity from the people here who have sat under his sermons since he became pastor of CLC. Is this sermon subject and way of presenting it new for Josh. Am I gathering here that that really good sermon is unique to CLC?
I did not word that last post correctly.
I mean I would like clarity. And I meant is that really good sermon unusual for Joshua or other SGM pastors to preach.
@Patti 242/243 – I think you made your wish for clarity, quite clear :)
When I posted a small excerpt from Josh’s sermon from yesterday, it was because in his statements at that point (and elsewhere in his message), I got the sense that what he was saying, and promoting, while solidly Biblical, was in stark contrast to what I have come to understand as CLC business-as-usual. I didn’t mean to imply anything about the sincerity or passion with which he delivered the message. Was just pointing to the content and wondering if there is reason to be hopeful… Maybe you’re in the same boat, and others here with more CLC history under their belts than me can give a better idea whether Josh has traditionally toed the SGM line in his sermons.
@IntheNickoftime @#229. Yes, that’s what is occurring…exactly what you did carefully. Review of 1000s of posts to discern themes and patterns. There been no interest or design to publish anything. I suspect it would take a few years to digest and write up the materials. But, even an eight-week read of the documents, e.g. 16 hours/day/every day gives a reader the sense of it. Also, there is this pending investigation by Ambassadors of Reconciliation. Will that report be made public? Available for review? Will dozens and dozens of people be interviewed? With depositions and stenographers? Some film-maker could make a documentary with interviews. There are disturbing patterns and themes, no doubt.
————-
I’d add this. Years ago, I met a man from the U.S. State Department. He had two PhDs. One in pyschology and the other in sociology. He was hired because of that training. His job was to examine and write reports for the State Dept. on the leaders and governments in Third World countries that were known to be corrupt or oppressive. The State Dept. wanted the facts. He simplified his work this way. His formula, not mine. “Wide discretionary powers” + “No accountability” = “Corruption.” That was his explicit formual as he reviewed regimes that oppressed their people. Shining the light of day on the problems was the solution. Fiddle with the formula around the edges here and there, add a little there, subtract a little here, but the formula still worked.
@exCLCersmom: Did the church provide any financial help to you and your kids? According to your records, how much money did you receive in total from the church?
Sidney – #236 – :goodpost
People still in the koolaid may not even realize that this is happening.
As Scriptures say, Fix your eyes on Jesus!
Aaron —
My opinion about online anonymity — from bitter experience — is this:
If you want to be open about information online, you’d best protect your identity.
If you want to be open about your identity online, you’d best protect your information. (As in protecting your “wall” on FB.)
Simply because the Internet is easy to use doesn’t make it *safe* to use. Anything you say as your true identity will be Google-able forever. (No real newsflash there.) If people are sure that their humanity will never rear its ugly head and that they will never say a single regrettable or rash thing online that someone can find, then by all means, doff those Internet underthings and let it all hang out.
Personally, I like my underthings on, for various reasons, not the least of which is plain ol’ common sense. There have been accusations on this blog in the past that the anonymous people had nefarious or cloak and dagger reasons for choosing to be anonymous. Ridiculous. No one OWES anyone their full identity online.
And the consequences of the online Full Monty can be seriously no bueno.
did she just say full monty? ha
Until Josh is really willing to allow the secondary issues to be openly debated in his church, I don’t see how business as usual won’t continue. I believe he is trying as best he can within his own beliefs and damage control bounderies. If he were to change too much he stands a lot to lose.
I believe that my local church leaders and my friends and I from my church community live and operate close to what Josh’s 8/14/11 sermon dictates regarding fellowship with unity in spite of secondary issue strong disagreemants. But frankly I don’t see Josh lasting long among the SGM, CBMW, Gospel Coalition, SBC etc. if he really promotes that kind of secondary issue freedoms among the members. I would like to see just which secondary issues he thinks members can be free to discuss in unity and love without fear of church discipline. As I’ve said before, I just want honesty, people getting involved in any organization need to go in eyes wide open. Most people here know by now which secondary issue is the most important to me. Josh’s vagueness could lead someone to believe he is softening on that issue also, he actually threw one little sentence in all his equalizing of people groups that said Christ is even above gender. But that was it. He could quote all of Colossians over and over but certainly don’t quote Galatians addition to the Colossians letter with neither male not female in Christ. I certainly hope Josh does not agree with CJ’s belief that Paul did NOT think CBMW/CBE was a secondary issue to the gospel.
How many times do we actually walk out of a sermon and obey/test what we heard and agree with. I know I’m guilty. I think a great ‘walking out’ to Josh’s sermon would be for you members at CLC to start talking amongst yourselves on what your secondary beliefs/questions truly are. After a sermon like that no one should have to say what they believe with any fear. The only ones with fear are the ones like Josh whose job could be on the line. But it doesn’t sound like anyone should be shunned anymore. Test it, test your friends, be brave, maybe you’ve been sneaking onto more Arminian websites or maybe even you have looked up godswordtowomen.org or cbeinternational.org which several bloggers have posted here and you want to talk to each other about it.
Anyway, the sermon did SOUND good.
DPV…..
I have appreciated your posts. However……
If you want to have any serious credibility, bringing Darryl Hart into things even indirectly will only hurt your cause.
Those of us who know of his acrimonious remarks over the years within the Refomed community, and his very narrow version of proper Christianity according to his view of the confessions, make him somewhat of a joke in less rigid circles. The war between WTS and WSC of couse is going to find fodder in Trueman’s remarks, which I didn’t like any better than you (or most of us) did. But Hart is another CJ, if not worse.
Here is a lovely little sample of Hart’s thinking from a long email debate he had with Frame (another prof, at another Reformed seminary), after Frame speaks of an ideal worship service being friendly and welcoming(the word “worship” here according to Presbyterian usage referring to the whole church service, not just the singing part).
Did you see this Donald?
“A jealous God is not one whose presence is welcoming and friendly”
I appreciate what you are trying to do, but please, I ask you for the sake of the gospel and this whole huge mess and all the people reading here, do not even mention Hart again.
There are people in the Reformed community who have little or no grasp of adoption of sons, drawing near in the holy of holies at the mercy seat, grace, a loving father, joy, or much else. I saw that you posted on Hart’s blog affirming Hart about CJ. If you want to stay engaged in this debate, and maintain credibility, you need to reassess that.
Thanks again for your service to this country, and your heart to see the SGM mess cleaned up.
oops, left out the link:
http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1998HartDebate.htm
Lucy #248 I understand what you mean and I was in no way saying everyone on here should out themselves. I appreciate the advice.
TOM Regarding “My pastor (a 20 yr member of CLC, 5 years on a church plant now) also addressed the situation two weeks ago. He said he and the elders have been asking for clarification on SGM’s relationship with our church for two years with no substantive response…”
What exactly is Chris asking?? is it “What accountability to we have with SGM?? or “What accountability does SGM have with them?” or “What services do we get from SGM for our 10% tithe?”
@Patti #242/#243 –
I think this message is right in line with what content/focus/structure/etc… of Josh’s messages for as long as I can remember. I only mentioned it here as being especially commended because I think he did a very good job addressing the church and the population on this blog — both us members and ex-members.
It’s been awhile though since he first started preaching (which was while CJ was still senior pastor) and my memory isn’t always so good, but it is at LEAST the trajectory he has been on. All of his sermons are online, its pretty easy to check.
Concerned #246 – Maybe you’ve been a lurker for some time and were only recently “concerned”, or maybe there was something in particular you were recently “concerned” about, that brought you to this blog to look into it, but either way, so far, from your few posts, you have only shown that your “concern” has been mainly for the “dangers of passing on negative reports”, “damage that can be caused by instant worldwide communication of information”, where the court case information can be found, and now wanting a detailed report on my families financial information at the time of our story. And with all the issues at hand, and with a nickname like “concerned”, I find it very odd what seems to concern you is those few things. I, admittedly, have no way of knowing if your concerns run deeper than those comments you’ve mentioned thus far. Understand then, that makes me somewhat suspicious of your intentions. If my suspicion is in error, maybe you would care to elaborate on what your main “concerns” really are?
NO member of my family is in any way obligated to answer your question (“According to your records, how much money did you receive in total from the church?”). But I will tell you there was no financial assistance (money) given to us (my mom and us children)from the church. There was a christmas, I think, we were given gifts for us kids …that may have been from the church, but might have also been from the salvation army. We were on welfare, getting food stamps just to be able to eat. And for a time before all of this happened, we were getting the group discount on tuition for the church school (tuition supplemented by the church). But other than the tuition and possibly the christmas gifts, there was no financial assistance given to my mother from the church.
Thanks anSGMmember, I have only been listening to Josh’s sermons since Spring of this year. And as I’ve commented before on here I would always think they were good but then it seemed he felt the need to throw a dig in somewhere at some group or person. And it sounded forced, like he just had to do it. I didn’t hear any of that yesterday. He sounded more comfortable.
Just popping in before I go listen to Josh’s latest Sunday message. All I can say is, CJ is one piece of work. I’ve been referring to his “season of reflection” as the “season of deflection.”
P.D.
QE2 said………..”Perhaps your pastor should stop sending your local church’s “tithe” to SGM until they clearly answered his concerns. I’ll bet the response to that would be substantive and take less than two years.”
Quizzler recommends that all local SGM churches withhold their “tithe” to SGM indefinately, and instead, give those funds to the hurting and needy among you; instead of lining the pockets of the selfrighteous and hypocritical who care not for those in need.
Money and power are the things they crave. If you continue to give them thes things you are just enabling them.
Seek out the widows and orphans among you.
N.S.L.B.
@Patti – #257
I think this whole situation is forcing him to really be stretched in a good way. It is also letting him come out the shadows, so to speak, of CJ. I feel like the last month+ has grown him in what would have taken years otherwise.
As far as the personal digs, I don’t really recall that so much, but I guess I am just used to his ‘humor’. I must admit (running and dodging) that I listen to Mark Driscoll a lot as well, so I would probably be numb to anything that Josh might say.
Quoting 5years’ quotation of Darryl Hart–about whom I know nothing other than that he exists and made the statement 5years references above:
(emphasis mine)
:scratch
RE: Protestant Dame #258
How about adding “season of defection”, too?
DK #262,
:clap
anSGMmember,
Why on earth do you listen to someone as unbalanced as Mark Driscoll? That would be like diving into the cat box for tootsie rolls.
You might think those are nuggets of wisdom but there’s a stench and I wouldn’t put them in my mouth.
At least Josh H. seems to be trying to be honorable.
DB — have mercy for crying out loud, its late at night. I just snorted half of my adult beverage!! I will never be able to see or hear about tootsie rolls again!! :P
I was listening to a maessage on the History of Revival and this little clip came in:
Dr. Eric Jordan – How a Sect Becomes a Church
Do you know the difference between a sect and a church? Sect is a little group its sort of different and separate from the mainstream so sect can be bad and or can be good what is different is not the same as the main body of the church when I used church I don’t mean that with a capital C. A sect is a conflict group. It is at war with existing mores. The church is an accommodated group. It’s acceptable and accepted, not at war with anything. A sect seeks to establish a code of values and a state of mind different from the world around it. And for this it claims divine authority. We’ve seen this pattern in revivals in the past. In its final form it becomes an institution. Eventually when it has exceeded in accommodating itself to other rival organizations, when it has become tolerant and tolerated it tends to assume the form of a denomination.
Preacher’s Magazine – June 1952
SGM and CJ sprung to mind immediately.
THIS IS MY FIRST, LAST AND ONLY RANT! DON’T AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH ME. NO CRITICISMS OR RESPONSES ARE NEEDED AFTERWARD FROM ALL THE BOTTOM FEEDERS WAITING TO POUNCE ON THE OUTPOURING OF MY HEART. I SIMPLY ASK THAT YOU PLEASE SHAKE YOUR HEADS RUEFULLY AND PRAY THAT I HAVE A MORE FORGIVING HEART AND CHARITABLE JUDGEMENT!
Dear CJ, I wrote you a letter of thanks and encouragement 15 years ago. You told me later that you were going to keep it along with other special letters you had received over the years to share with your children as a legacy of your life. I certainly hope you receive and keep a copy of this letter for them to read as a comparison of my disappointment as well!
So, CJ, let’s talk man-to-man. You wrote that your 13 year friendship with Mark far outweighs the love and care that you believe can be provided for you by those who have loved you, worshipped with you and prayed with/for you over the past 30 years? What greater insult could you heap upon the members of CLC than this slap in the face from the man who held us all to such a high standard of accountability? Well, so much for your preaching about your commitment to “The Local Church”. We now see the true weight of your commitment to CLC, your fellow church members or your own teaching. All the while we are shaking our heads ruefully.
CLC membership does not need to decide whether you are still qualified to lead. You disqualified yourself upon abandoning CLC for the sake of your own pride and vanity. You are obviously too embarrassed and ashamed to face accountability, corrective adjustment and your own reality. You should be ashamed! Looking back, it was a good thing Carolyn’s father told you at your wedding that he trusted Jesus! How insightfully prophetic was he? Do you ever wonder whether your father would still be so proud of you or would he simply shake his head ruefully?
1 Timothy 5:1 reads: “Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers” but you abandoned CLC and now disallow those who have loved you for years from either rebuking or encouraging you! We are the same age, and “brother”, since you will not allow us to restore you gently, we shall treat you as an unbeliever while we continue to simply shake our heads ruefully!
I am sickened to my stomach to remember the day you were preaching about Larry’s departure from SGM! In case you have forgotten, let recreate the moment for you, (and for everyone else who happened to miss your performance). You were fully engulfed in tears! Between sobs you asked that the microphone be turned off so you could “speak off the record”. Your words still ring in my heart through your sobs, “I would rather die than to do what Larry has done.” There was no explanation from you about what Larry had done and so you left CLC members sitting in our seats thinking, “WTF?” as we wondered what happened that would make you want to die?
Oh, yuck, that memory just made me throw up in my mouth . . . but just a little!
I praise God you preached for years to place our trust in our Sovereign Lord. Abandoning CLC has perfectly demonstrated that placing our trust in man will always result in disappointment and failure. I praise God that He does fulfill His promises and that my wife and I have taught our children to place ALL OF OUR FAITH in Him!
3 more short things . . .
1 – Christ’s finished work was not the Cross . . . the finished work was His resurrection! Everyone dies, but Christ’s death was meaningless unless he had overcome death!
2 – Yes, I too am a sinner, but I don’t dwell on it all the time anymore because I am a redeemed sinner. (SEE # 1 ABOVE)
3 – I have prayed for you at length. Please know that I forgive you just as Jesus would. But in my failures, I won’t trust you anymore. Thank you, CJ, once again, for demonstrating a lesson filled with so much life application. (SEE # 1 ABOVE)
Oooops, this should have been with the previous post:
You’ll see this in the pattern of history. God raises something up that is at war with whatever the messages around it seems to establish a code of values and state of mind that is different from everything but as time goes on it becomes accommodated it sits in until finally becomes an institution tolerant and tolerated.
More from the same message:
Liston Pope in his book Mill Hands and Preachers list stages of development when it goes down the tubes
1. It moves from economic poverty to wealth, it is disclosed especially in salaries and in value of church property. This is true also in the spiritual world. When a group starts it usually doesn’t know anything. They say we don’t know anything but when it finishes they know everything. It has answers for everything, it knows everything. It tries everything, it is everything.
2. It moves from a psychology of persecution to a psychology of success and dominance
3. It moves from evangelism and an emphasis on evangelism and conversion to religious education emphasis
4. It moves from a high degree of congregational participation where everybody is involved to small percentage of membership that carry all the responsibility for doing everything
5. It moves from fervor in worship to restraint
6. It moves from positive action to passive listening
7. It moves from reliance on the leadings of the Spirit to administration procedures
This was an analysis by a person on the history of revivals past on how a work becomes accommodated. You can see most of these patterns in church history of when God started something and man finishes it.
Again, I would swear SGM fits this pattern. While I disagree with those here that think that SGM is a cult, these patterns are there, right down the line.
@ Aaron #253~
Just to clarify, please don’t think I was offering advice or implying that you thought anyone here should out themselves. I was only offering my opinion, which I think is the word I used, about online interactions. The “you” I referenced was simply the “universal you,” the “general you,” not you specifically. :wink:
A non response to laconic conservative:
Thank you for sharing your heart here. I am sure your heartfelt expression is speaking for thousands of people who gave CJ their love, support and praise as a man of God, people who made his job as pastor a joy!! Your sentiments made me cry — I cannot express the anguish I feel in my guts for you and the other families at CLC at this moment.
ditto what Irv said
Breezy — :goodpost
You hit the nail on the proverbial head!! The nothings (or as the Bible states the “are nots”) become the Elite.
Laconic Conservative,
I know you didn’t invite responses but I couldn’t help myself: :goodpost :word
I’ve been there the last 30 years, too, and am shaking my head along with you. You expressed the disappointment so many of us are feeling about CJ going elsewhere along with his sons-in-law/families which also makes no sense.
Thank you for sharing, I hope you will reconsider and not make this your “last” post.
5Years inPDI,
I’ll preface my statement here by saying that my heart goes out to all of those in SGM who have been so deeply and even irreparably damaged by the reckless ministry practices at SGM. I had similar experiences in a large evangelical non-denom church, so there is some overlap with many of the stories here.
However, DPV is well within his rights to bring up Darryl Hart, and he has been a conduit of information for those of us in the confessionally Reformed camp. The backstory between Hart and Frame is complicated, and goes at the heart of many historical notions of what constitutes Reformed worship. However, to compare Hart to CJ Maheney (as some sort of tyrant) is borderline slanderous. Hart is in submission to the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and you would be more likely for Obama to repeal social security than you would be to have Hart step out of the sanction ecclesiastical bounds of his communion. It is bound up in who he is as an elder of the OPC, and colors all of his writings.
I’ve seen DPV get a lot of heat from some of the insiders here, as if some things are ‘out of bounds’, but the fact is this is a public forum, and a good one for helping those outside SGM grasp what is going on. Unless this is shifted to a members only format, sequestering opinion is out of order in a public forum (unless it defies good manners and sensible taste). It also seems to be part of why SGM is in this mess in the first place. Hart is a contrarian, and as such he ruffles a lot of feathers, but his voice is a needed one in the church today. Just because you differ with him on matters of worship (it’s not as if historic Reformed worship and charismatic worship are kissing cousins anyway), doesn’t devalue the benefits his work in American church history has for the church. You might even find some of his work challenging some of your concepts of how and why the whole SGM model is so fraught with difficulty today.
As a guy who looked up to the ‘Young, Restless, and Reformed’ roster of celeb pastors including CJM, I can tell you that this soul found refuge in the fold of a more somber, reflective and Reformed church that doesn’t rely on personalities to drive ministry. For all of our faults Reformed churches have had a head-start over 5 centuries ironing out ecclesiastical controversies in the church courts where accountability is (typically) held in high regard, and no one man can run the show. It isn’t a perfect system, but it is a check on the abuse of pastoral power.
I often check in, and my heart aches for what SGM is going through right now. On the ground, many people have paid a steep price for the lack of leadership accountability. Those of us in the Reformed camp aren’t heartless, nor are we out to empty the charismatic camp. But, this Reformed guy hopes that this scandal can help SGM churches and those like it develop a clearer sense of what the church looks like and puts in the hard work of choosing an ecclesiastical model that limits the damage that can be done by one man.
Gadgets post #125
Your story breaks my heart as many have here. The comment that someone said about your personal belongings
was especially stinging and disgusting. If you still need help moving your storage items and are in the Metro/Dc area, I would be more then happy to give you a hand. I have vans and a 14″ box truck so there is no reason for this to be a problem or expense for you. I’M sure I could snag a few brothers to pitch in as well if it’s a lot of stuff.
Laconic Conservative,
My heart and experience are with you.
I too received from CJ a tearful description of how a letter I wrote to him would be preserved with “just a few” special things in a small box, to be able to share with his children in the future.
I, like Brent Detwiler, have the copy of “Humility: True Greatness” sent to me with the same expression of gratitude for my example of humility (word for word what Brent quoted from his copy. Maybe it was a manipulative rubber stamp of his handwriting).
I too had CJ share his tearful expressions of dismay for others actions (now revealed to have been rank hypocrisy, making himself look loving, humble, and wise – while making others look guilty, beyond anyone questioning if CJ’s accounts were even accurate.
It is heartbreaking, but it is also a form of high-handed manipulation and arrogance that is beyond what any of us could have imagined, on our most uncharitable day.
Laconic Conservative #267 :goodpost
Andy the picketer – Thank you so very much for your willingness to help. Unfortunately I’m not in the DC Metro area, but thankfully, there were some wonderful brothers and sisters who were able to help out. All is moved. I’m very grateful for those who have given of themselves during this painful time in my life, Sadly, they are in the minority. The overall culture that has seeped into my SGM church from on high of “some are more equal than others” as well as the self-righteousness, false humility and pharacitical attitudes is just disturbing.
This may seem random in the thread, I meant to post last night but never got around to it, so here goes.
Bouncing around in the back of my mind is the phrase “over the past two years.” I have noticed it has been said by Joshua at member’s meetings, by Chris Silard regarding his desire for clarification of his churches relationship with sgm, and a few other places.
What I am pondering is that I have also heard people criticize Brian and Mike for pulling out “so early in the process.”
I would submit, when I put the above two thoughts together, I think in true SGM secrecy, a lot of conflict has been going on behind the scenes for the past two years, which has only recently been discussed in public and therefore Brian and Mike aren’t pulling out as early in the process as it appears to us outside of the pastorate. :Thinking:
… ‘scuse me … pardon me … sorry, I was down there feeding on the bottom and I heard a commotion up here. They have really good coffee down there, btw … :)
LC #267 – No reason why you should feel bad about expressing yourself. A “forgiving heart and charitable judgement” doesn’t mean ignoring the truth.
I’ve stuck to the opinion that since CJ was not asked to step down or under church discipline in any way, that it can’t be argued that he needs to endure his “season of defection” (thanks DK) at CLC or another SGM church. The situation is different and the same rules don’t apply as they did for other pastors. At the same time, it doesn’t mean that if CJ had an ounce of integrity, he shouldn’t stay around and take his lumps like a grown man.
Also, wanting to make sure I don’t dissapoint – pouncing on your #1 – you said:
Amen, and the work continues… to grab a bit of scripture about a chapter or so ahead of where Josh started on Sunday:
Have a great day, everyone. I gotta go back down and find the rest of my coffee… :wink:
LaconicConservative,
You speak for many of us “long-timers” when you express your disappointment and disillusionment. Thank God that we have the mind of Christ and can discern what is good and what is not. Thank you for taking the time to tell it like it is!
Unfortunately, it seems there is still some koolaid left in the pitcher -August 11 2011 at 11:16 am
Listening to Correction, Speaking the Truth and Avoiding Slander
8 Comments
by the Pastors of Covenant Life Church
Our church is facing a uniquely challenging season. Since early July our congregation has been forced to respond to a flood of online allegations concerning leaders in Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries.
While very difficult, we believe that God is using this trial for our good. He is humbling us, increasing our dependence on him, helping us to see our sin more clearly and revealing where our structures and practices need to change. We are praying he would continue to refine us and prune us so that we would bear more fruit as a church (John 15:2).
What has made a response to this situation difficult is that there are several biblical priorities to which we’re seeking to be faithful. And at times they can seem to be competing against each other. These priorities are:
1. Humbly listening to criticism and correction regardless of who it comes from or how it’s delivered (Proverbs 12:1, 9:8-9; Matthew 7:4-5).
2. Sharing honestly and transparently with our members what we understand about the current situation (Colossians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 4:2; Proverbs 12:9).
3. Guarding against gossip and slander (Ephesians 4:31; Exodus 20:16; 1 Peter 2:1).
As we’ve navigated this situation so far we’ve realized that we’ve not always been as balanced as we should have been—at times we’ve emphasized one of these priorities at the expense of the others.
As we press forward, we want to provide guidance from Scripture about how to process information about other people found in online documents, blogs or just casual conversations. What follows are some principles we believe are important for all of us to keep in mind.
Listen Humbly
We don’t want to use the category of gossip and slander to silence needed criticism and concerns. Proverbs 12:1 says, “Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.” And Proverbs 12:15 says, “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.”
We recognize that some of the correction coming to our church is fitting and accurate and has been quite helpful for us as we seek to lead the church into the future. The challenge is that the delivery and accuracy of the criticism is sometimes hard to swallow. The combination of hurt and a lack of a clear path of communicating grievances has prompted some to share their grievances in unhelpful ways and with unhelpful attitudes. But regardless, we don’t want to let this keep us from hearing what is true.
Another way to put this is that we don’t want to let sinful attitudes or unhelpful modes of communication cause us to miss truth we need to hear. In a fallen world, truth usually comes in mixed forms. This is why Jesus told us to focus on the “log” in our own eye not the fault of our brother (Matthew 7:4). So what we don’t want to say is, “I’ll only listen to things that I believe are completely or mostly true or seem to be shared in the most humble manner.” In some cases God will allow people to speak to us or about us in ways that are mixed with sin. Our instinct will often be to focus on finding what is false, exaggerated, or tainted by other sin so we can justify dismissing everything as false. In doing so, we may fail to see those things that are actually true and need to be faced. So even if 90% of a statement is false, we can benefit and grow from facing the 10% that is true. (How much more so if God eventually helps us to see that there was even more truth in the criticism than we initially recognized.)
This important step of listening should not be overlooked because we don’t like what we’re hearing or even if we don’t like the methodology or tone of the messenger. How many of us have communicated correction with perfect tone when we’ve been hurt?
So, first, let us listen. “Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted” (Matthew 23:12, cf. Luke 14:11, 18:14). And, “If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame” (Proverbs 18:13).
Discern
Having established the attitude of humility expressed in listening, we also need to remember that the only written record that requires no filtering is the Bible. Even the Sunday sermon by a trusted preacher needs to be listened to with discernment (see Acts 17:11 for a good example). Scripture calls us to “… test everything; hold fast to what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). So, while we are sure to find some help in the critique of others, we are sure to find error as well. This is particularly true when someone is speaking from hurt or grave concern.
Part of reading with discernment is recognizing that when you are reading Brent’s documents you’re reading a singular perspective that doesn’t include all the facts and circumstances that could drastically change your perspective of what is described. So while Brent’s documents contain facts in the form of e-mails and meeting transcripts, there are also many places where Brent assumes he knows the motives and intentions of C.J.’s heart. That’s not his place to do—it’s not your place or my place to do either. This is something Scripture expressly forbids. Romans 14: 4 & 10 says, “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls … Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.”
Remember Your Relational Responsibilities
The decision of whether or not to read critical comments in Brent’s documents or the blogs takes careful thought and prayer. One helpful way to process the issue is to think about your differing responsibilities. A simple way to sum this up is: Be tough on yourself, concerned for those closest to you, and protective of others.
The person for whom you are most responsible before the Lord is yourself. Therefore, if someone says something critical about you, it’s generally wise to ask for God’s grace to hear them out and thoroughly examine their input. If you doubt your own judgment or objectivity, you might even want to bring in a third person to hear the criticism against you and help you to process it. The same would be generally true if a report concerns someone for whom you have some responsibility (spouse, child, employee, or even a close friend). If the report contains some truth, it may be necessary for you to take action to ensure that the person you are responsible for faces those truths and deals with them biblically. The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.
But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.
What Type of Person Are You?
Another important issue to factor in when deciding what you do or don’t read is your own strength and weakness. Some people have hearts like Teflon: they can hear critical words about someone else and easily dismiss and forget them once the words are proved false or valid criticisms have been properly dealt with. Other people are like Velcro: critical words stick in their minds and poison their hearts for a long time, even if the words prove to be false or are properly dealt with. Prayerfully ask God (and maybe even your spouse or a close friend) to help you discern which kind of person you are. If you’re more like Velcro than Teflon, it will be wise for you stay far away from critical reports unless you have a specific and compelling responsibility to consider and act on them.
Helpful Teaching on Dealing with Bad Reports
To elaborate on how to go to others and process negative information about others, we want to share an article entitled “Should You Pass on Bad Reports,” written by Tim Keller and David Powlison. We share this lengthy excerpt below because it speaks directly to the biblical principles needed as we process accusations being made in this season. While not everything here applies precisely to this situation, we find these categories very helpful in thinking about the situation from Scripture.
…………………………………..Article Excerpt Starts Here……………………………..
What Does James Say about Passing Along Bad Reports?
“Humble yourselves before the Lord … Brothers, don’t slander or attack one another.” –James 4:10-11
The verb “slander” simply means to “speak against” (Gk. kata-lalein). It is not necessarily a false report, just an “against-report.” The intent is to belittle another. To pour out contempt. To mock. To hurt. To harm. To destroy. To rejoice in purported evil. This can’t mean simple disagreement with ideas—that would mean that we could never have a debate over a point. This isn’t respectful disagreement with ideas. James warns against attacking a person’s motives and character, so that the listeners’ respect and love for the person is undermined. “As the north wind brings rain, so slander brings angry looks” (Proverbs 25:23). Everybody gets upset at somebody else: slanderer, slanderee, slander-hearer.
The link of slander to pride in James 4:10 shows that slander is not the humble evaluation of error or fault, which we must constantly be doing. Rather, in slander the speaker speaks as if he never would do the same thing himself. It acts self-righteous and superior toward one’s obviously idiotic inferiors. Non-slanderous evaluation is fair-minded, constructive, gentle, guarded, and always demonstrates that speakers sense how much they share the same frailty, humanity, and sinful nature with the one being criticized. It shows a profound awareness of your own sin. It is never “against-speaking.”
James 5:9 adds a nuance: “Don’t grumble against one another.” Literally, it means don’t moan and groan and roll your eyes. This refers to a kind of “against-speaking” that is not as specific as a focused slander or attack. It hints at others flaws, not only with words, but by body language and tone. In print, such attitudes are communicated by innuendo, guilt by association, sneering, pejorative vocabulary. In person, it means shaking your head, rolling your eyes, and re-enforcing the erosion of love and respect for someone else. For example, “You know how they do things around here. Yadda, yadda. What do you expect?” Such a “groan” accomplishes the same thing as outright slander. It brings “angry looks” to all concerned. Passing on negative stuff always undermines love and respect. It’s never nourishing, never constructive, never timely, never grace-giving.
What Does the Book of Proverbs Say about Receiving Bad Reports?
“He who covers over an offense promotes love, but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.” –Proverbs 17:9
The first thing to do when hearing or seeing something negative is to seek to “cover” the offense rather than speak about it to others. That is, rather than let a bad report “pass in” to your heart as truth, and then get “passed along” to others, you should seek to keep the matter from destroying your love and regard for a person. How?
Start by remembering your own sinfulness. “All a man’s ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the Lord” (Proverbs 16:2). To know this automatically keeps you from being too sure of your position and of speaking too strongly against people that you hear about or people on the other side of a conflict. You intuitively realize that you may not be seeing things right. Your motives are never as pure as you think they are. To know this acts to keep you from being too sure of the facts, too sure of your position, and of speaking too quickly and too negatively about other people. Knowing your own sinfulness helps you not make snap judgments that take what you hear too seriously.
When you remember your sinfulness, remember God’s mercies. “…love covers all offenses” (Proverbs 10:12). The God who is love has covered all your offenses. He knows everything about you (and the whole story about that other person). He has chosen to forgive you, and life-saving mercy cost Jesus his life. He could write you up with a 100% True Bad Report, but he has chosen to bury your sins in the depths of the ocean. That makes the life and death difference. If your sins are not buried in the ocean of his mercy, then you will be justly exposed and will justly perish. But when you’ve known mercy, then even when you hear report of grievous evil, an instinct toward mercy should arise within you. To savor the tasty morsels of gossip and bad reports is very different from grieving, caring, and wishing nothing less than the mercies of Christ upon all involved. And most bad reports are much more trivial. They are the stuff of busybodies and gossips going “tut-tut-tut.”
Then remember that there is always another side. “The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him” (Proverbs 18:17). You never have all the facts. And you never have all the facts you need all at once. You are never in a position to see the whole picture, and therefore when you hear the first report, you should assume you have far too little information to draw an immediate conclusion. What you’ve heard from someone else is only “hear-say” evidence. It has no standing or validity unless it is confirmed in other ways.
So when you hear a negative report about another, you must keep it from passing into your heart as though it were true. If you pass judgment based on hearsay, you are a fool. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t check out the facts. Go to the person. Hear other witnesses. If you’re far away from the scene, wait for more of the story to come out. Suspend judgment. Don’t get panicked or stampeded by mob-psychology and rumors. Be content not to know many things. You don’t need to have an opinion about everything and everyone.
Third, what should you do if you are close enough to the situation to be involved AND you think the injustice or matter is too great or grievous for you to ignore? For starters, notice that you only really need to know something if it touches your sphere of life and relationships. In that case, you should do what will help you to express God’s call upon you to speak Ephesians 4:29 words of wise love.
In Derek Kidner’s commentary on Proverbs 25:7–10, he writes that when you think someone has done wrong you should remember, “One seldom knows the full facts (v.8) and one’s motives in spreading a story are seldom as pure as one pretends (v.10). To run to the law or to the neighbors is usually to run away from the duty of personal relationship.” See Christ’s clinching comment in Matthew 18:15: “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.” In short, if you feel the problem is too great and you can’t keep it from destroying your regard for the person, you must go personally before you go to anyone else.
When Should You Go?
Galatians 6:1 says we are to go when a person is caught in a trespass. That means there should be some kind of “pattern” or the unmistakable exposure of a wrong. Don’t go the first time you hear a bad report about someone doing wrong. As we said above, there’s another side to most stories, and our motives are never totally pure when we get indignant. Go if the person seems caught—that is, trapped or stuck in a habit pattern of wrong behavior or falsehood.
How Should You Go?
Galatians 6:1 says we are to restore gently and in humility, bearing all the fruit of the Spirit. Beware of your own tendencies to be tempted—perhaps to the same sin, perhaps to reactive sins of self-righteousness or judgmentalism, perhaps to avoidance sins of cover-up and pretending. Galatians 6:2 goes on to say that we actually fulfill the law of Christ by bearing each other’s burdens. We become nothing less than lesser redeemers in the pattern of our Great Redeemer. Jesus in Matthew 18:15ff says we should also go persistently, and not give up in the process. Patience is one fruit of the Spirit because problems don’t always clear up quickly. There is a progression in efforts to get to the bottom of a bad report, to confirm the facts, and to work at bringing restoration.
Who Should Go?
Galatians 6 says you—plural—who are spiritual should go to the straying one. That both defines how you should go and it calls for multiple people to get involved. Similarly Matthew 18:15ff says to bring in other people if matters don’t resolve one to one. The right kind of checking out a bad report is always done in person and often will be done by involving multiple wise persons.
Why Should You Go?
In both Galatians 6 and Matthew 18 the goal is to restore the person and to re-establish sin-broken relationships. You are working to restore people both to God and to others.
Conclusion
In summary, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the principle is this. If you hear bad reports about other Christians you must either cover it with love or go to them personally before speaking of it to any others.
• The first thing to do is to simply suspend judgment. Don’t pass on bad reports.
• The second thing to do is “cover” it in love, reminding yourself that you don’t know all about the heart of the person who may have done evil—and you know your own frailty. Don’t allow bad reports to pass into your own heart.
• The final thing to do is go and speak to them personally.
What you should never do is rush to judgment, or withdraw from loving another, or pass on the negative report to others. This is challenge enough when you’re dealing with the local grapevine or slow-moving postal service. In a world of instant worldwide communication of information it’s an even bigger challenge, because you can do bigger damage more quickly. Whether the bad report offers true information, or partial information, or disinformation, or false information—it is even more important that you exercise great discretion, and that you take pains to maximize boots-on-the-ground interpersonal relationships.
…………………………………..Article Excerpt Ends Here……………………………..
Closing Thoughts
We realize that not every aspect of this article applies to our current situation—not all the information contained in the documents written by Brent or on the blogs is a clear-cut case of slander. But the public airing of these documents and accusations on the internet has ratcheted up the complexity of this situation and brought voices into the conversation that are neither helpful nor constructive. That’s part of what makes this situation so complex for us as a church. C.J. has confessed to several of the main accusations and repented of his sin. So there is a place for us as a church family to talk about what an appropriate response is. It’s not slander for us to discuss standards for leadership in the light of Scripture. It’s appropriate for members of the church to raise questions and talk to pastors and others about what Scripture calls us to change and reform. We (as your pastors) continue to invite questions, concerns, feedback and disagreement. And even as we guard against gossip and slander, we will continue to be committed to listening humbly and being open and transparent.
But we hope that Keller and Powlison’s article will serve us all to guard against the temptation to slander. Let’s do all we can to avoid judging motives. Let’s go directly to people instead of whispering about them to others. And let’s work hard to maintain the “unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Ephesians 4:3).
One of the greatest temptations that we all face as our church walks through the current season is to take sides and try to identify who are the “good guys” and “bad guys.” More often than not we decide the “good guys” are the ones we typically agree with, while the “bad guys” are those with whom we more often disagree. The reality, however, is that no one will come out of the present situation untarnished by his or her own sin and mistakes. There are no “good guys” and “bad guys” in our present turmoil. There are only fallen sinners who have been redeemed by the immeasurable grace of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
None of us has responded perfectly without contributing our own sin or our own lack of wisdom in this situation—your pastors included. Your pastors, our friends in Sovereign Grace, our church members, Brent Detwiler and people writing on the blogs have all contributed helpful things and some that are unhelpful. This should cause us all to walk humbly. God is examining all of us. Let’s live with grateful awareness that only through Jesus Christ’s life, death and resurrection can any of us be saved from our sins and reconciled to God. With that in mind let’s ask him to give us grace to walk in a manner worthy of this glorious gospel (Ephesians 4:1).
Chris Silard was in my care group for a while on his way back in at CLC. I know he had stepped down from being a pastor — under what circumstances I don’t remember. Then he was restored. It’s nice to hear that the Frederick plant is going well — I know a number of people there too.
Anne – CLC 1986-2007
I’m sad for the pain here, but see God using the tears to draw many closer to Him and to strengthen each of us for His glory.
C.J. may still have some followers, but he’s toast in many ways. Toto pulled the curtain on the Great Oz while he was pulling levers to deceive.
Now, a more pressing concern is for the people following the local pastors who have followed the Great Oz in lockstep and inculcated his falsehood into their local churches. Many of them too are filled with arrogance while putting on a show of humility. As the SGM empire weakens, some of these men will likely pull congregations off to themselves in the hope of keeping their paychecks intact. As one who has been there, I implore you to be more wary than ever. Birds of a feather flock together. Never forget that.
For Laconic C. at #267…I can only say a hearty AMEN, brother.
I wholeheartedly especially agree with your observation, “placing our trust in man will always result in disappointment and failure”. We need daily reminders of this fact. Thank you, thank you. :goodpost
kmack, thanks for sharing that update. (I keep trying to figure out what kmack stands for. A great Scottish name? No need to respond, it just goes through my mind each time I see you post.)
@ DB #264:
Yeah, I know there is quite that opinion of Mark. And I know a lot of pople will draw similarities between Mars Hill/Acts 29 and SGM. I know there is criticism to be made of Driscoll and his teaching, but there is also a lot of good truth in there. I’ve had cats, so I can make it through the litter box. ok, well that still makes me want to puke, but anyways. I can at least say that I have never fallen asleep while driving and listening to Mark and I have been able to take away some good points from his teachings. Maybe he resonates with younger men more. I benefitted from getting, as he says, kicked in the middle, on his message to husbands in the Trial series. Honestly I have learned a lot. So of what to do, and some of what not to do.
He, however, is NOT my pastor – his teachings sit under the authority of not only the scriptures and the Lord, but also under my pastors, so it is secondary to what is preached at CLC.
I’d like to believe I have enough spiritual maturity and discernment to know what to take and not take from anyone who is at least not pure heresy. Even then – I can learn more about how to reach out to those who sit under heretical teaching and try to walk them into the light. Not to say I’ll be download and JW/mormon sermons anytime soon. But I’ve dialogued extensively with those of other religions to be able to understand their POV and try to reach out to them.
Ok, I will continue to run and dodge now. Please don’t hate me. :wink:
Acme — When did Chris Silard step down as pastor at CLC? Are possibly confusing Chris Silard with Chris Glass?
To: GS and all the pastors at Covenant Life Church:
Greg, I want to thank you for taking the step to be open and post on this public blog in relation to the past mishandled sex abuse cases discussed here. You have taken a great step to reach out to the hurt, angry, and disenfranchised people who have been in the past “discarded” by various SGM churches, as well as, those who patently disagree with various aspects of SGM’s doctrine and practices. My husband, daughter and I have discussed this entire situation at length and have decided not to call you in relation to the tragedy that occurred in our family. We are no longer CLC members and we wish to move on with our lives, serving God elsewhere. This is particularly true for our daughter. However, I did want to write a response to you openly on SGMsurvivors.
Your blog post appears, on first reading, an apology of sorts, and yet it is not. A number of commenters gave you a huge benefit of the doubt on that. I had not made it known publically before that John Loftness and Gary Ricucci were the pastors involved in our sex abuse case, but you as a pastoral staff most assuredly knew that. [These were the same pastors who 6 years earlier had been involved in exCLCer’s case] Both of these men have since then been promoted within SGM ranks. JL is a Senior Pastor and on the SGM Board and GR is a “SGM Pastor”. To send an email from yourself and “on behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,” while it may be heartfelt, gave the false impression that there had been some sort of conviction of wrong doing by the pastors involved in these sex abuse cases. Nowhere in this email is an actual apology of the errors in judgment by these pastors.
You desire to talk to us, saying, “I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future,” and I’m glad that you do, however, I am sure that you can read between the lines of the various sex abuse stories and the resulting blog comments from hundreds of people and figure it out. You don’t need to talk to us. I would encourage you, though, to discuss an appropriate policy for handling sex abuse cases with professionals that deal specifically with sex abuse victims.
I agree with Kris’s comment #104 on 8/12:
“I would also encourage Mr. Somerville to step outside his SGM box and look at the larger picture. As he thinks about exCLCer’s and SGMnot’s stories, he needs to realize that the harsh and hard-hearted responses of the pastors involved in those situations have much broader root causes. He needs to understand that there is a much MUCH bigger problem beneath the surface than just two (or a half-dozen or however many) badly handled cases of sexual abuse….while I believe that yes, it is important for SGM/CLC pastors to reach out to all victims of specific situations, I actually think it is just as important for these pastors to examine the trends. Examine the root causes. Examine what it is about what their organization has trained them to believe what enabled these horrific things to happen in the first place.”
I believe many of the critical bloggers and commenters in the blogosphere have clearly communicated what these root causes are and there is much to be learned from critics.
Instead of calling you privately, I would like to ask some pointed questions publically, that summarize what I believe are the crux of the pastoral mishandling of our cases. And I would like to encourage you, or better yet JL and GR, to post responses on this blog. I believe that this will help in the healing process of all those hurt and abused in the midst of these sex abuse cases:
1. What were the reasons that CLC pastors felt they had the authority and right to interject themselves into the legal system, as it dealt with the crime of child sex abuse, and to try to negate or minimize the appropriate sentencing for those crimes by asking victims’ parents to delay or not call the police and to ask parents’ of victims to advocate for the perpetrators by letters or statements asking for leniency? (This was, particularly egregious, in regards to exCLCer’s stepfather’s crime of child molestation of her sister of approximately 4 years!)
2. When JL counseled us “don’t call the police”, after he ALREADY had directly pastored another family in the midst of a sex abuse case and DEFINITELY knew that the law required us to do so, AND that it would be in the best interest of our daughter and other possible victims, why did he do that and has he been censored/disciplined through his employers, SRC/SGM?
3. Why did JL instruct us to tell no one, not even our Care Group, close family, and even close friends living with us? Did they consider the privacy of the perpetrator and his family as more important than the crisis that we were going through? Or was the secrecy because they were more concerned with the reputation of CLC than our emotional and psychological needs? In both cases, why wasn’t the embarrassment and shame of others knowing about these crimes part of the NATURAL CONSEQUENCES of committing such a crime?
4. Were there any direct funds or donations from SGM or CLC paid for the legal fees of either perpetrator or their family during these court cases? And if so, will you make financial restitution to the victims and their families, in particular, to the children of exCLCer’s family for any psychological counseling that they have needed from the sexual molestation or the errors in judgment by the pastors handling these cases?
5. What was the length of time between the discovery of sin, which was deemed serious enough to excommunicate a woman with 9 children and no viable source of income, whose child had recently been a victim of such a horrible, longstanding sexual molestation by a church member, and the time in which she was asked to leave? Why was there not a LONG season of longsuffering for this woman and her children? And was there any impropriety in the decision to excommunicate her, because she had dared to not agree to your counsel or so that the perp’s identity would be protected?
6. Why was the ENTIRE church of approximately 1000 members at that time, a church supposedly built upon the practicing the “One Anothers” of scripture, not allowed the opportunity to serve and care for all these children rather than having them placed in a often-flawed, secular foster system? Thus, multiplying many times over the re-victimization of these children and destroying in the process any faith or trust that some of them had in God?!
7. Why did JL and GR not answer the confrontive letters and emails that exCLCer sent them each year on the anniversary date of her family being thrown out of the church? How could they turn a deaf ear to her cries for justice, year after year, until finally this past summer when a male member of CLC inquired about her case? She has more heart and passion than many who call themselves Christians!!
8. After reading our case stories and the resulting outrage online, do you as a pastoral team understand clearly what child molestation is, so that this crime will not be minimized by calling it “teenage experimentation”, or in exCLCer’s case “attraction of the woman that she was becoming” or some other excuse. And will you create a written, zero-tolerance policy that will specifically support victims and their families with follow-up counseling, as needed, AND clearly protect other possible victims in the church family as the primary goals VS. emphasizing the care, legal advocacy, and privacy of the perpetrators?
It is my hope that through this very painful discipline of the Holy Spirit that CLC and SGM, at large, are experiencing will bear fruit and bring about a deeper understanding and practice of the love of God. I believe that the failures of CLC’s pastoral team in caring for sex abuse cases have become public as part of that discipline. As the other cases posted and referred to on SGMsurvivors testify, this mishandling of sex abuse cases has been a pervasive pattern within SGM. And it is my hope that this entire family of churches will decisively deal with this grievous pattern and the underlying root causes of wrong theological emphases, and put an end to it.
In conclusion, I would urge the pastors of CLC and SGM to not discount the criticisms and opinions of people commenting on this and other related blogs. I am sure that it is very difficult to hear strong words, sometimes communicated in anger or frustration. There is much to learn from those who have passion and take the time to express their thoughts. Also, I believe that the biblical step of a clear, detailed repentance is in order from JL and GR, even though all the victims and family members appear to not want to hear it. This blog would be a good format to do that in, since some of the family members from these cases, at this time, will not set foot in a church building!
May God continue to work in each of our lives,
SgmNot
SGMNOT: :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap
I cannnot say it enough- :goodpost
That was an amazingly well thought out and gracious letter, sgmnot. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
DB #264,
I’ve been trying to be so good and not giving a giant LOL to your tootsie roll post, but after seeing it again this morning it’s just too funny, I don’t care who ya are.
And then realizing and reminding myself it was my studying/criticalness of Mark Driscoll’s sermons because of his influence on the young people over here, that led me to study SGM because he listed CJ as one of his 3 mentors, and that name sounded familiar. Their style and personality may be completely different but similar doctrine.
No matter whose teaching that we subject ourselves to it is still our responsibility to weigh carefully what is said. It still surprises me how relatively few Christians actually study their preacher’s sermons against the whole counsel of scripture.There was one sermon where Driscoll was teaching on Genesis 3 but never turned to it or asked his audience to turn to it but he quoted verbatim the teaching of other people I’ve heard instead. I kept looking for ANY resemblance in the scripture to his reference and that’s what I was pointing out to one of his young followers when I saw CJ’s name on Driscoll’s screen, and made the connection to Daughter’s BF’s denomination.
Oh, and just for the record. I do voice the positive when I see it also. In fact back in April after watching Mark Driscoll’s Easter sermon in our Seattle Qwest stadium I posted on my FB page that even though I am outspoken about my strong disagreements with him, his Easter salvation message was really good.
( I didn’t say though how I didn’t really see how it meshes with his predestination messages.) But I believe many came to Christ that day through Mark’s sermon.
sgmnot #289
:goodpost :!: :goodpost :!: :goodpost :!:
Well said! Very well said!
Great letter, sgmnot.
I hope they answer you so we can see the response.
#258 PD hahahaha refering to his “season of reflection” as the “season of deflection.”