C.J. Mahaney Explains Why He’s Not Attending Any SGM Church During “Season Of Reflection”
August 13, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
C.J. Mahaney has apparently been gettng lots of concerned inquiries about his leave of absence. He put up a post yesterday to answer his fans’ questions. He said,
Many of you have kindly inquired about my leave of absence and how I will be spending my time during this season. Before I give you an update, I want to take this moment to thank each of you who have expressed your encouragement and your support in prayer.
Some of you have asked where I will be attending church during my leave. That’s a good question, as it’s not uncommon for pastors to take a leave in a church that is away from their home congregations, and this seems wise. During my leave of absence I will be attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church where Mark Dever is the senior pastor. After seeking counsel about this decision, I’ve concluded that this is the best place for Carolyn and me to receive care and counsel, to examine my life and leadership, and to consider my future during this season of reflection. I want to learn all I can during this season, and I pray that this time will benefit not only me but Sovereign Grace as well.
Mark and I have a rich history of friendship. I met Mark thirteen years ago and since then we have become very close friends. Mark has been not only a unique friend but also a mentor to me. I want to continue to take advantage of our friendship and his mentoring as much as possible during this time, benefiting from Mark’s unique pastoral wisdom and his gift of leadership. I am deeply grateful for his kindness and this opportunity. Actually, other than my wife Carolyn and those with whom I have served closely in Sovereign Grace Ministries, no one has had more influence on my life in the last ten years than Mark.
This leave of absence from my role as president of SGM will allow me the time necessary to process the valuable feedback I have received (and continue to receive), and to devote time to consider how I can best serve Sovereign Grace Ministries in the future. I’m seeking and benefiting from the advice of the SGM board and a number of leaders in the broader church—men I admire and who have become my friends over the years. I am approaching this task without making any assumptions or presuming upon any particular outcome. By God’s grace and the kindness of these men I am not lacking wise counsel as I seek to discern the will of God about how I might most effectively serve when this leave of absence concludes.
So for those who have kindly asked, I hope this information is helpful. I deeply appreciate the encouragement and support of so many at this time. I simply do not know how to adequately express this, but I trust you feel my deep gratefulness for your support. And I would appreciate your prayers, given the importance of the decisions before me and their impact on Sovereign Grace Ministries, the pastors I respect the most and the people of our churches for whom I have the deepest affection.
Finally, many of you know that this spring Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, and I were invited to speak at a pastors conference in the Dominican Republic. We are currently in Santo Domingo and the conference (Por Su Causa 2011) begins tomorrow morning. Please pray for us and for this very strategic conference. Earlier, during this same trip Jeff and I, along with Al Pino, visited the pastors that Sovereign Grace Ministries are honored to serve in Cuba. I was deeply humbled by the men and women I met, all of whom display remarkable joy and trust in God. I believe we will be sharing more about this trip on the Plant & Build blog later. In the meantime, please pray for our friends in Cuba and the Dominican Republic and for our friend Al Pino, who represents Sovereign Grace in our work with these remarkable saints. Please pray that Christ would be glorified in their midst and the gospel would go forth in these countries.
With gratefulness,
C.J.
Despite this explanation, several readers have written to Guy and me to express their ongoing confusion over C.J’s decision to ditch his own denomination family of churches during his “season of reflection.” Some have also expressed curiosity over the idea that C.J. would so quickly take the stage again as a speaker, despite the fact that there’s barely been time for SGM’s panel of “indendent” investigators to have begun their task, let alone issue a verdict.
Brent Detwiler has published a post about this topic on his own blog. You can view that post here.
I put this up yesterday as a comment, but I will post it again here for those who have written to ask what my thoughts are:
For me, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not C.J. is under church discipline at CLC. (Actually, I’m pretty sure that he is not under discipline right now…but I could be wrong.) I have a real problem with the idea that C.J. would go to another church at this time, because he is choosing an action that would not have been available to any other SGM leader in a similar situation, if the leader wanted to remain in good standing with his SGM church.
It’s simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. has options that other SGM pastors would not have.
It’s also simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. can change his song and dance about the “happiest place on earth” without at least getting up in front of his congregation – like a man – and explaining his change of heart to the people!
If C.J. now doesn’t actually think that CLC is the “happiest place on earth,” the Source of all that anyone ever needs for his Christian life, but has instead changed his tune and thinks leaders in the midst of church conflicts ought to be able to ditch their commitments and go wherever they feel they will be “better served” – well, that’s OK, but for God’s sake, C.J. needs to retract all his original teachings about the importance of having a come-hell-or-high-water commitment to one’s specific local church. C.J. needs to stand on that stage at CLC and explain exactly how his beliefs have changed. Then he needs to apologize to everyone who was made to feel like they had no other option but to hang in there and take their SGM lumps and NOT be able to run off to some other non-SGM congregation to be “better served.”
It’s NOT that a change of belief is wrong. It’s that SGM always always always does these changes without proper explanations, retractions, and apologies to those who were hurt by the original false beliefs and teachings.
Thoughts?
I read CJ’s post much earlier today…
I believe CJ thinks, and wants everyone else to think, that all of what’s going on right now – the BD issue, the blogs, the dissention within CLC – is a mere distraction, which is best avoided. Nothing more than a speedbump on the road to glory.
From Brent Detwiler:
“Sovereign Grace Ministries and C.J. are experiencing a time of humbling. The once stellar reputation of the ministry exists no longer. There has been a decline. In recent years, hundreds of people have left churches in numerous cities due to a growing distrust of their leaders. These were good people and in many cases people who had been part of the movement for a long time. They were loyal. They were servants. Theywere followers of Jesus. Now they are gone.”
100s have left? Mr. Dixon posted yesterday that there were multitudes at Kingsway.
Retouring Mr. Detwiler’s documents for the fourth time, looking for holes, rebuttals, exaggerations, “foul play,” over-statements, bitterness, anger and any other thing that might be evaluation. Mr. Detwiler deserves rigourous cross-examination.
Again, in the interests of fairness, objectivity.
His Majesty’s Spirit creates truth-lovers of facts, fairness, justice and mercy.
Again, regards to all posters.
Ok, this really rubs me wrong – and while CJ “gets” to run away from people at CLC who might ask the tough questions, hold him accountable, he’s going to get “cared for” by his very good friend and mentor, and most likely the body. Abused were left without resources/shelter/$$, abandoned, and NO ONE cared for them.
Very side note: in the previous post someone mentioned that a colonel in the Marine Corps is the same as a general. A colonel in Marine Corps is 0-6 (equivalent to a Navy or Coast Guard captain) and there are 4 more ranks above colonel: 0-7 through 0-10 are the rankings for generals or admirals (name changes depending on the branch of service). You can see a chart that compares officer ranks here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel_%28United_States%29
signed, former Naval officer’s wife
So is CJ divorcing the church now?
;-)
Sorry, couldn’t resist. Anyone who has been around SGM long enough will know what I am talking about.
CJ doesn’t attend CLC while a “taking a step back”. He attends elsewhere. Preaching while “taking a step back”. And not even in this country. And his “pastors” don’t agree with either. Talk about running… Do the CLC pastors have control of his salary? His salary should be frozen. Don’t forget one of the guys on the SGM board (the infamous Gary Ricucci of “self induced poverty fame”) is his bro-in-law. You know for sure he’s not gonna buck him in either case. CJ’s office should be cleaned out while he is gone and shipped to Mark Dever’s. That way he can have all of his materials while he is “under his care”.
@Stunned… lol, didn’t CJ write a book or article a looooong time ago with the title Stop Dating the Church? Seems like CJ doesn’t drink his own kool Aid. :koolaid
1. To whom is CJ accountable? CLC has little to say about it, it appears. CLC is “told” how things will be. That’s how it appears.
2. Notice, from Mr. Detwiler below. A problem in a Philadelphia church, yet, if Brent is believed, an email was sent to the world of SGM Pastors. “All the pastors in Sovereign Grace Ministries” about problems in one local church? Were the other churches involved? Did every SGM Pastor need to know? Is Mr. Detwiler correct here? If Mr. Detwiler is correct, this is a widespread dissemination to those not needing to know.
————-
On Sunday morning, March 17, 2002, C.J. wrote the following to all the pastors in Sovereign Grace Ministries regarding the senior pastor in our Philadelphia church and his need to step down. It is one of many examples that could be put forth.
“I type this e-mail with great sadness for I must inform you that is has become necessary for Bill to step down from pastoral ministry….
An announcement ofthis nature should sober and provoke each of us as we travel to the Leaders
Conference. May we arrive at this year’s conference more attentive andresponsive to God’s word, more humble and teachable. Bill righty states in his confession that this day was avoidable not inevitable. Recognizing that the seeof every known sin resides in our heart let us purpose to identify and mortifyall known sin. Let there be no secret sin in our lives. Let us be specific withthose we are accountable to about our sin and current temptations so that wewill not one day have to stand before the church and make a similar confession as Bill will make today.”
It is always about “me, me, me, me”, isn’t it? So, don’t worry folks, he is being “cared” for by his good friend Mark. Even though other disciplined pastors had to slog it out in the church where they were disciplined.
“It is good to be king”
But exporting SGM tactics to Cuba? Like they need more authoritarian legalism there.
Actually, we had seeker stuff going one there there, so I can’t pontificate too much. (sad face) But I was never sure if they were rice Christians or not.
Tiny little correction- though Bill, mentioned in the post above, was at one point the senior pastor of Covenant Fellowship, by the time 2002 rolled around, he was not a senior pastor any longer. He was a regular pastor. (OK, I am sure he had a title that wasn’t “regular” but I can’t think of what his title was.)
Matt said:
Haha, Matt, you’re pretty cool. I always look forward to reading your posts when I get on here. :lol:
This goes to the point of hypocrisy more largely. Kris’s post is more narrowly tailored to a specific point of hypocrisy–CJ’s “leave of absence” while “ministering” in Cuba, as something inconsistent with other SGM Pastors who stood down. While Kris’s note is narrowly tailored, there is a “charlie horse” between the ears.
Let me get this right re: the Detwiler post in #7. Help, if there are factual errors here. Here’s the understanding.
(1) A Philadelphia Pastor has a problem in 2002. (2) Let’s assume that there are 50 SGM churches in 2002 over which CJ and Brent exercise leadership. (3) SGM apparently steps in–over problems–and relieves the Philadelphia Pastor. (4) Yet, CJ sends a SGM-wide email to 50–assuming 50–SGM Pastors about “Bill” in Philadelphia. Did the 49 other SGM Pastors need to know this? (5) Then, we hear complaints about “public documents” from Mr. Brentwiler crafted and delivered privately over 18 months? Am I alone is smelling the hypocrisy here? (Not to detract from Kris’s main point.)
Is the above a correct factual pattern?
One thing to remember – AFAIK, CJ is not under any kind of church discipline, making his situation different than the pastors who were degifted, dismembered and otherwise mutilated under his authority. His exile is self-imposed, a “season of reflection”, a paid vacation, perhaps a “three hour tour” in the Gilligan’s Island sense. Forgive my wishful thinking. He is voluntarily seeking out the counsel of others, but he is not subject either to them or their counsel. He has no obligation to modify his schedule, cut back on his speaking engagements, attend or not attend church where he wants – at least as far as his relationship to SGM is concerned. Correct me if I’m wrong, but in a technical sense, it’s not that the rules have changed – CJ’s situation IS different and therefore the same rules just don’t apply. Not that they shouldn’t – they just don’t. An argument that could be made is if SGM rules require their apostle-level folk to attend an SGM church regularly – but the SGM board has already given CJ a pass on that one. I’m tempted to say “don’t blame the rabbit for running away because the kids let him out of the cage.” Oh, I guess I did…
With respect to CJ’s relationship to CLC, where I understand he is a member, I presume the situation should be addressed in some way by CLC’s membership covenant. If a CLC member fails to attend services at CLC for a period of time, what are the rules and consequences involved? Don’t know, just asking.
“Oh, I guess I did…
With respect to CJ’s relationship to CLC, where I understand he is a member, I presume the situation should be addressed in some way by CLC’s membership covenant.”
Ok, now here is another question. Is CJ a member of CLC now? Right this moment? And if the answer is yes, is he in good standing according to CLC and their member covenant? Josh? Greg? Anyone?
Bueller?
How does one usually go about not being a member, voluntarily? Do they send a letter, tell someone in power, ‘take me off the rolls please’, call the church secretary?
And, if CJ is still a member and his son in laws have resigned, then what does that mean?
CJ is sure being cryptic and ignoring all his own rules.
Obviously, CLC is not going to disfellowship CJ like they have others. Why not? He is breaking the very rules he put in place. Josh, can you explain that?
So, do we have more than one instance of hypocrisy concerning church membership and discipline?
Perhaps CJ will tell us where his “membership” resides as of today. CHBC or CLC?
And he is not allowed to use the word “care” or “serve” when he answers. :o)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/59523000/Part-1-Response-Regarding-Friendship-Doctrine p.3.
Concerning “hypocrisy,” Mr. Detwiler writes below. The context is an email from CJ to Detwiler and his [CJ’s] “recent” discovery of learning that Mr. Detwiler had issues with CJ. The date is Jan 2010. Yet, Mr. Detwiler claims explosively that the troubles existed over years and were well known to CJ, not something of “recent” vintage as CJ dismissively claims. Here’s a quote from Mr. Detwiler re: hypocrisy. Hypocrisy and double-standards are one of several claims by Mr. Detwiler. Here’s Mr. Detwiler’s sense of it.
“Lastly and most importantly, I write because of my deep love for you and for Sovereign Grace Ministries. My greatest concern is for the increasing presence of deceit and hypocrisy rooted in self preservation and love of reputation.”
Here is CJ trying to avoid Koolaid of his own making.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNHBUqfLnM&feature=related
Little bald man is our ceejaaay
For the sake of argument, let’s say that the parachurch organization in question wasn’t SGM HQ. So as not to draw the ire of any particular organization, let’s call it Overseas Missionary Sending Org A (OMSOA). Suppose you have the president of OMSOA in your SGM-affiliated congregation and, via public dissemination of information, allegations and assertions come to light that involve both known and potential sin. Let’s also say — as is being said in the SGM situation — that the allegations and assertions in the main have to do with the president’s leadership of OMSOA. In this example, would the pastoral team of an SGM-affiliated church traditionally have waited for OMSOA to do its own due diligence before exploring or engaging in church discipline, or would church discipline have been initiated in tandem with OMSOA’s own investigation?
It’s interesting to note that the April/May 2011 issue of IX Marks’ e-journal (Capitol Hill Baptist Church) was about parachurch organizations and church discipline. From Jonathan Leeman’s article, “How Church Discipline Will Save the Parachurch” (http://www.9marks.org/ejournal/how-church-discipline-will-save-parachurch).
I think what breaks my heart, is that people love this man and his family! Period. I mean these were the people that were prepared to not read the Brent docs if CLC said not, they were willing to come on here and defend him, and they were already inclined in their hearts to believe this was a personal issue between him and Brent and forgive him for his part.
How could he take that sacred trust and love and just trash it for his own arrogant belief about the way he thought he should be treated and his sins presented to the congregation?
Fried Fish,
Actually, a number of the de-gifted, dis-enfranchised, no longer sufficiently “on-board” pastors that have left SGM pastoral roles were NOT under church discipline, but were still expected to undergo an extended, in house evaluation process as they were leaving the pastoral team or even outright leaving the church.
Some have been threatened that they would not be spoken of well or acknowledged for their previous service if they did not “humbly” submit to this process from the very men whose practices, character, lack of integrity, etc. was removing them from ministry or causing them to leave by their own conscientious choice.
In other words, men who were NOT under church discipline or even accused of sin or failure, have frequently NOT been given the “CJ option” to reject the leaders over them and buddy up with their favorite pastor friend, in a church they like across town.
Mr. Detwiler, again, p.4, concerning a 1982-1997 period. This goes to Kris’s point re: CJ’s withdrawal from CLC (and hypocrisy). However, Detwiler gives another angle on the withdrawal and speaks of a more general pattern by CJ. I wish there was rigorous cross-examination of Brent. Brent speaks of having kept detailed notes and works from 100s of documents. Brent offered for mediation with CJ by way of digitalized video and written records. Brent says, rightly or wrongly:
“Little did I know I would continue to play this role from 1982 until 1997 when Larry left the movement. During this time period, I learned a lot about you and not just in relation to Larry. It included many different people and contexts. I discovered you were most tempted when you felt sinned against, judged or misrepresented. This often led to bitterness, anger, sinful judgments, distrust, and relational withdrawal.”
I mentioned this in the previous post, but something I’m thinking most current SGMers probably won’t realize is how very different SGM’s concept of “care” is, compared to what might take place in the rest of “normal” Christianity.
There are some very specific ideas that SGMers have when they hear the word “care” in the context of a “season of reflection” like the one CJ is supposedly in the midst of. In SGM, “care” in a situation like CJ’s – where a member has admitted wrongdoing – is something that would flow from the member’s authority figure downward to the member (who has less authority). The authority figure is free to quiz the more lowly member and challenge the member about his sins and shortcomings.
The really important thing to keep in mind is that this “care” would NOT be an exchange between equals.
If you stop and think about it, this is really one of the most incriminating aspects of CJ’s situation, that CJ apparently feels the need to step outside his own organization to find someone who he thinks can provide him with good “care”. Basically, what he is saying to the people at CLC is that there is nobody within his own church who can challenge him.
But for the record, no matter how authoritarian Mark Dever might be, and no matter how influenced by SGM, I’m guessing that Capitol Hill Baptist does NOT hold to SGM’s specific ideas about “care.” If anything, CJ and Carolyn will be admired and fawned over by the Capitol Hill folks, and if Dever opens up his busy schedule to get in CJ’s face in the manner to which ordinary members of SGM churches are accustomed, it won’t happen much.
I’m new here, been reading for several weeks now. Member of Covenant Fellowship Church for several years.
I agree with FF at #12 re; CJ’s leave.
Also, Andrew, at the SGM Plant and Build blog has stated many times in his replies to questioners that SGM and CLC have agreed that CJ’s situation should be handled by SGM and not CLC and thereby, he does not even come under the Matt 18 procedure of being held accountable by a church, per Andrew.
At CovFel, ‘Bill’ is still a faithful attender and leader of some prayer groups on Sundays, etc. I was there when he ‘stepped down’, but I have no idea what his ‘sin’ was/is,(he didn’t say) but I know many people love him and wish he was still a pastor. I was new there at the time.
Totally off topic; Dave Harvey’s son, Tyler is/has recently served with the Army in Afghanistan.
Howdy Oswald…
Welcome to the fray ;)
Kris, you speak of the SGM concept of “care” Speaking of “care,” here’s Brent’s review of CJ’s reactions in 2000-2003 to attempts at “care.” Hypocrisy, again, comes to mind. That is, CJ is his own standard while others submit to CJ’s standards “of care.” This is Mr. Detwiler’s history. (I assume the reference below is to Dave Harvey and Steve Shank.)
————–
“Fast forward. During a team meeting on December 4, 2000, Dave, Steve and I began to raise issues of concern for you. For example, we pointed out you were often difficult to correct, became offended when you felt misunderstood or judged by others, quickly and hastily arrived at conclusions about people based on limited information, came to extreme conclusions about people in a presumptive and premature fashion, were stubborn when you thought God had spoken to you or you had a strong opinion about something, made decisions without adequate appreciation for the personal effect on others, and led the apostolic team more by expedience rather than by process. We also noted a lack of discussion and involvement as a team in decision making. These things didn‘t happen all the time but tended to be general patterns. For the next three years, I led a process whereby we consistently tried to help you see these and other issues of character. Unfortunately, that lengthy process proved unsuccessful. During 2003 our appeals to you intensified. For instance, Dave met with you in Baltimore on April 24 and covered numerous concerns. We took the next team meeting on May 13 to follow up with you. We talked about ―silencing mechanism you tended to use when someone like Dave attempted to bring you correction (i.e., how you could be exacting and take offense, judge, mistrust or adjust a person if they didn‘t have the right attitude and use the right words or illustrations when bringing correction to you).We talked about whether or not you viewed the apostolic team as a venue for confession because we did not know where you struggled with sin and whether you were growing or being evaluated. We also reminded you that the absence of confession was raised 1½ years earlier at Celebration United Kingdom. At that time, you promised to talk about the confession of sin to us as a team. You never did.
During the May 13 team meeting, I pointed out how this was―uncharitable and irresponsible.You asked our forgiveness for not getting back to us but we never talked about the lack of transparency in the ensuing months.”
Re: Kris #20; CJ’s stepping outside his own organization; I wonder if he will soon/eventually step out completely, like the SIL’s and thereby avoid the whole evaluation process. I know others here have suggested this.
OK, maybe CJ is in hot water and being held accountable by the guys on the SGM board rather than his CLC pastors. Maybe this is a Corporate issue and not a CLC issue.
But what does it say that in the midst of what is arguably the biggest crisis of CJ Mahaney’s career, he has to turn to a church outside the
denominationfamily of churches he created to receive “care”?Whether CJ is under church discipline yet or not (and I think it’s been established that he is not, despite his initial admission of wrongdoing), it’s hugely telling that he feels “better served” by a non-SGM church. After all those decades of teachings about the vital importance of one’s own personal commitment to a “local church,” where leaving one’s local church is equivalent to getting a divorce, CJ is showing people that he himself does not have that sort of relationship with a “local” church.
Through this action of going to Capitol Hill Baptist, CJ himself is validating one of Brent’s main assertions, which is that CJ has no accountability with a local church.
I know Bill. He loves the Lord and did not deserve the treatment he received. CJ has done far worse. Bill’s sin? A wayward son. So they removed him. Are you kidding me? Cold and in light of this post, hypocritical. These guys have no shame. . .
I think seej oughtta serve his discipline here 8)
Alpologist, take a look at #7 and #11. (1) Bill in Phila has an issue with a son and must step down. (2) Yet, notice, if Brent is correct, that CJ sends an email “to all SGM Pastors.” All pastors? Did “all” the SGM Pastors need to know about this? My question is for Brent. Is that factual, “all pastors” were informed? (3) Yet, there are complaints about public documents? Kris has pointed at one angle on hypocrisy. I’m coming from another angle. Is it so that “all” SGM-Pastors were alerted about Bill’s sin? There is something that is destructive in that–hubris. Somebody say it ain’t so.
C.J.’s actions appear to be a repudiation of everything IX Marks teaches. The idea of healing outside of CLC would make good sense except for the letters his sons-in-law wrote and except for CJ being at a conference in the Dominican Republic.
Bill P. was no boyscout…he could be very hasrh in demeanor and tone, not saying he deserved to be french fried publicly-but that is what SGM preaches and teaches, and Bill P. is the poster boy-having been removed from his pastoral duties twice in SGM.
@In Adullam’s Cave #18 –
Thanks for that additional info, and it’s a travesty that pastors can be removed and disciplined, even if not under discipline and with no due process. But since CJ hasn’t been removed or asked to step down by his board (if indeed they have the authority to do so), I stick by my original statement that the same rules don’t apply. Again, not saying they shouldn’t, but they don’t.
Not to steal away the spotlight from CJ and his lovey Vay-Cay/time in the spotlight, but….
Can someone in the know with ExClcer and ExclcersMom story confrim that
Mr. A = Mr. Adams?
And that his band is the Flower Hill Blue Grass Band?
This band usually plays at Montgomery County Agricultural Fair, going on now…
And who exactly his his pastor? (I read it a while back but forget)
Thanks for the confirmation/clarification.
Kris you said, “maybe CJ is in hot water and being held accountable by the guys on the SGM board rather than his CLC pastors”
That makes me laugh! We can see throughout Brent’s documents how the SGM board has held him accountable – NOT. And now they are allowing him to go to a non-SGM church and preach at an international conference?! Sounds like he’s still calling the shots to me – and the board is still following the leader.
yellow –
yes,
yes,
and yes, :x
and I dont know.
Matt #13 –
Matt, that is so totally unfair. The poor man really wouldn’t be able to defend himself. :D
Guy? #27?
:::::::::snort::::::::
:amen
CJ said: //I want to continue to take advantage of our friendship //
Uhh, better run, Mark Dever! (I’m sure CJ doesn’t necessarily mean it the way it sounds, but what a weird choice of words, anyway.)
As I read through his letter, all I see is how much CJ wants for HIMSELF: care, counsel, support, prayers. Where is his expressed desire for these same things for “the people of our churches for whom I have the deepest affection”?
Not ONCE does he say “I’m praying for the people of SGM” or that they would receive care or counsel or support or prayers during this time of upheaval for THEM. I see a man who truly believes this is all — and only — about him. Actually, that phrase I quoted is the only time he even mentions “the people” or his relationship with them. Any other mention of his service in the letter relates to SGM, NOT “the people.”
Serving the organization, CJ, is not the same as serving the people.
Bleah.
Regarding the concept of “care,” we get another view of CJ’s one-sided and unilateral view of “care.” Matt, this goes to your comment about “serve” and “care.” As to the term “serve,” this gives a picture of how CJ “served” his SGM board members–one way. Again, this is Mr. Detwiler who, himself, needs cross-examination, or better, direct rebuttal from CJ. Brent has long desired rebuttal (in writing too). Adullum, this goes to your point about “two standards,” or, in other words, “double standards.” It also goes to Kris’s point about “hypocrisy.” Here’s Brent, again:
“We also asked if the CLC pastors were speaking into your life. You assured us they were. (Later we discovered this was untrue. They were providing very little input.) If true, we asked why we were not updated on the team level. We talked about the disconnect between us being evaluated by you, but you not being evaluated by us. We also talked about other issues and examples but I have not included them here.”
#27 — Wouldn’t that be special!!
:clap
Donald, I don’t think there is a standard practice. Pastor Ken (forget his last name) tells the story of his wayward son Jared (now pastor at covfel) and how he went to Dave Harvey and was going to step down when he was having problems with Jared and Dave told him not to step down.
Interestingly, the story told to new folk like me when I first started attending SGM was that Bill stepped down voluntarily.
Donald it is a total train wreck once the light shines behind the facade.
I wish Bill Patton could at least lead worship again. He was an amazing worship leader.
Jared, are you reading? How about some Bill P. up on stage? Let bygones be bygones. He has a God-given gift that should be used. How about Alan Redrup doing a little preaching while we’re at it? :-) He was gifted also.
Anybody else with me to get Bill back up there?
Let’s revisit Mohler’s words to reporter Peter King at the Courier Journal just a few days after Mahaney stepped down (How would the reporter have known this?) and see if they don’t match what we see as the “endgame” happening now:
“I always have had only the highest estimation of C.J. Mahaney as a man and a minister,” Mohler said in an interview — his first public comments on the situation involving Mahaney, one of his fellow leaders in the Reformed, neo-Calvinist movement. “That continues absolutely unchanged. There is nothing in this current situation which would leave me to have even the slightest pause of confidence in him.”
Mohler said he believes Mahaney and the Sovereign Grace board are being prudent in planning an independent investigation from people outside the denomination to make sure those involved are above reproach. (From Matt: Mohler also advocates LOCAL church discipline)
“There is nothing disqualifying in terms of anything that is disclosed in this,” said Mohler, who regularly speaks on programs along with Mahaney. “It’s just evidence we knew all along, that C.J. is human but a deeply committed Christian and a visionary Christian leader.”
Mohler said he saw no reason for Mahaney to take a leave from other leadership positions. (From Matt: Clearance to do speaking gigs during this “time of reflection”)
“I assume he would retain every position in leadership,” Mohler said. “I expect he should be very quickly returned to leadership of Sovereign Grace.” (From Matt: This is all just an exercise in public relations)
Mohler contended that Detwiler has “an obvious vendetta” against Mahaney and attributed the document dump on the Internet to him. (From Matt: They desperately want this to be about Brent)
Mohler added: “Any time you’re going to take on the role of leadership, you’re going to have critics.” (From Matt: We are critisized which only means we are being persecuted so we must be right)
Mohler also supported Sovereign Grace’s highly centralized leadership structure in its churches, with “very strong pastoral direction” and internal discipline. (From Matt: Take note SBC which has always stood for the Priesthood and soul freedom)
“It’s something clearly called for in the New Testament,” he said. (From Matt: yeah, right inbetween all the “one anothers” and don’t lord it over like the Gentiles do and all the other ones about the first being the last, lowly servants, etc)
Mohler said he knew this practice has had online critics for years. (From Matt: cryptic reference to blogs)
“Basically there are people who are very uncomfortable with the strong kind of spiritual direction that comes through the Sovereign Grace Ministries,” Mohler said. “It’s very hard to criticize it on biblical terms, as you’ll see on most of those Web sites. It basically comes down to the criticism, ‘I don’t like that.’”
See, this was all planned to give Mahaney cover for every single decision we have seen made so far. Mohler knew the endgame before CLC did.
Here is the link
http://blogs.courier-journal.com/faith/2011/07/12/mohler-backs-mahaney-dismisses-accusations-of-abusive-leadership/
BTW: the SBC needs to censor Mohler over this.He is a paid employee of the SBC.
I’m new here, long time lurker (not ashamed), not a CLCER, SGM Down south. I am disappointed to say the least with my SGM local church response. There have been 4 pastors, de-gifted? / stepped down?, in the last 4 years alone? That is a pretty high number. From the Finance Team, I have heard that CJ gets thousands of dollars when he comes to speak at our local church. Of course never been shared with the congregation. Also here is what was told to the Care Group Leaders recently about CJ..
Col DPV —
I think it is time that you to contact and talk with Brent directly.
BTW – my dad is retired AF (Col) – I think you guys would hit it off. He was part of the CINCLANT Joint Chief of Staffs when he retired in 72.
Appreciate your comments! Wouldn’t mind speaking offline with you sometime if you are so inclined!
Irv
Formerly USAF Ssgt Irv, (4 years and out)
Irv:
1. I’d just prefer to be called Donald or Don. Copy on CINLANTFLT JCS. Been awhile since CINCLANTFLT though.
2. I need to really digest Brent’s documents again. It would be interesting to talk to him and would be willing. But eegads, the historian of details has done “fact sniffing” for so long, one needs to master the details. It’s a 521-page set of well written points–from his 100s of pages of notes, emails, and documents. Brent is no slouch.
3. Yes, willing to talk offline anytime. 910-229-7914, generally 1100 to 2200 EST. I like get up late, mozy around, and have coffee with my wife in the morning. Otherwise, am free. Give me a call anytime.
Regards.
Season…
Nothing is showing on your latest comment…not sure if you are trying to upload an attachment or what. Any issues, just email me
Oswald,
Welcome here, I mentioned Tyler’s service about 6 weeks or so when we were discussing (rather ot) those of us who have loved ones in harm’s way. I am indebted to Tyler’s service and have been prying for him and the others who are heros.
I remember Bill Patton similarly to Musicman. He was certainly not perfect but I don’t believe he did anything to rise to the occasion of being removed from his position.
A question, why isn’t CovFel trying to reconcile with the people that were hurt and mistreated at their church?
There seems to be a trend that includes local churches acknowledging mismanagement of circumstances and at least a nominal attempt to make things right?
Stunned?
Musicman?
Anyone?
Why? It isn’t as though nothing happened there, in fact, from what I understand, it had the reputation of having one of the more draconian…um….aggressiely authoritarian approaches in the SGM system.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
I’ve known both Bill Patton and Dave Harvey for the better part of my life and, considering C.J. and Dave’s treatment of Bill, they should both personally apologize to Bill. Bill’s oldest son is a SGM senior pastor in DE. and his “wayward” younger son is also walking with the Lord. Those of us who have been around for many years can see right through all this nonsense.
How can a person take a leave of absence from ministry while “ministering” in the Caribbean?? How audacious and brazen! This is condescending to any sense of integrity before God! He also insults the intelligence of the people he “serves.” No thanks, Dave and C.J., you can stop “serving” me now. My trust has been shattered…and you cannot lead people who no longer trust you.
Just throwing this out there. If you think about it, CJ hasn’t really attended CLC consistently for years. His travel schedule prevents it. What is it, 70-90 travel days a year? Not asserting any conclusion on what I think about that, but just thought I’d throw that into the mix…
Brent is seeking “to serve” CJ by evaluation as per below. Brent’s seeking this “service” from CLC Pastors who can, by turns, “serve” CJ re: his strengths and weaknesses. The date is 16-18 Dec 2003. Can anyone smell an explosion to be? From one-way CJ? Here’s Brent.
“―In preparation for our team retreat on December 16-18 we‘d like to ask for your help in providing us an evaluation of C.J. In some respects, you relate and work more closely with him then we do. Therefore, we look forward to your feedback on ways you feel he can grow and ways you feel he excels. Please feel free to provide additional written explanations for your answers pertaining to both his strengths and weaknesses. Also, if you wish, please add any additional comments that are relevant but not addressed on the form. Either Steve, Dave or I will try to get back to you by phone during the week of December 9-12 with clarifying questions we may have. Therefore, could you please send us this completed evaluation by the end of the day on Friday, December 5? Thanks so very much brothers for serving us and C.J. in this way.”