Some Musings On The Re-Release Of “Boy Meets Girl,” Edits, And True Change
November 30, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Some months back, Joshua Harris posted on his blog about the re-release of Boy Meets Girl, his book about courtship. Although originally scheduled for re-release in early in 2012, it looks like the title does not appear in publisher WaterBrook Multnomah’s Spring 2012 Catalog.
When the discussion in yesterday’s comments meandered onto the topics of courtship and Boy Meets Girl, I mentioned that I was curious about just how the new edition would differ from the original. At least one of the stories Josh used in the 2005 version (as anecdotal evidence for a key tenet of courtship – the idea that “godly character” and feedback from one’s friends and family about a potential spouse are far more important considerations than one’s initial gut-level attraction to the person) will need to be removed, as the couple in question (whose real first names were used in the book) are now in the process of divorcing.
This morning I received an email from a Sovereign Grace Ministries pastor who shared with me that yes, indeed, to the best of his knowledge, this particular story will not appear in the re-release of Boy Meets Girl. Josh Harris is editing it out, apparently replacing it with another couple’s story that (thus far) has worked out better.
For obvious reasons, this change is a good thing, of course.
BUT, as with just about every twisted or harmful teaching SGM has backed away from in recent times, a simple edit job is really not enough.
While it’s true that – as Josh Harris purportedly said in response to people who asked him about whether or not he was going to change the new editions of his books to reflect the relationship failures – Boy Meets Girl never outright claimed that courtship was a formula for divorce-proof marriages, there is still throughout the entire book the underlying belief that courtship as Harris describes it is a far superior, more godly way to find a spouse. And, because one of the major assumptions of courtship is that feelings and basic romantic attraction are not important and, in fact, are frequently just sin-tainted distractions, it seems like honesty would demand that Harris explain the reasons for the various edits he felt compelled to make.
Like, if Josh and his coworkers at CLC have noticed that many of the couples who married after subscribing to the principles of courtship as outlined in Boy Meets Girl ended up struggling, he owes it to his book-buying fans to own up to how his Bill Gothardesque ideas might have compounded those struggles. For instance, if “godly character” (which in the book includes the person’s commitment to the “local church” and how the person is perceived by one’s parents and friends from the “local church”) is the main consideration in the spouse-finding process, what happens when, after marriage, the husband begins to question his particular “local church,” to the point where his father-in-law now no longer views him as having much “godly character”? How would such a shift affect the way the wife feels about her husband? If their whole relationship was built upon the foundation of their shared commitment to their “local church” and her parents’ and friends’ approval, what happens when those elements are removed?
I guess the bottom line is, editing out a divorcing couple’s story is just not enough. It’s not enough to cut and then replace the stories that would not show courtship in a positive light.
Instead, with his books, Josh Harris needs to do the same things he seems to be asking the other leaders in his family of churches to do. He needs to pursue complete honesty and openness about the pitfalls of courtship…the problems he has witnessed…the legalism that can easily develop…the silliness of working so hard to deny one’s natural feelings while elevating a subjectively defined standard like what others think of a potential spouse’s “godly character.”
Awhile back, a reader asked me when we – the other commenters and I – would ever be “happy” with SGM. Here was my response:
I will be “happy” when SGM finally acknowledges all the many truths of its past that they have tried to bury. I will be “happy” when SGM actively and specifically repents of the multitude of constantly-morphing extra-biblical teachings over the decades, from legalistic approaches to courtship and homeschooling and “women should NEVER work outside the home,” to “glue-stick spanking” and “having a junk drawer shows a lack of integrity” and…well, you get the idea. Basically, everything that SGM has attempted to slyly “forget” about and pretend never happened needs to be expressly addressed and actively taught against, if SGM has truly moved away from the faulty teachings.
In my mind, the same holds true for any re-release of Joshua Harris’ books. He is well aware of the problems his books have caused. Taking out a story here or there is not enough. I hope the new version of Boy Meets Girl contains entire chapters on courtship’s pitfalls, and the dangers present in ignoring our God-given emotions and putting so much emphasis on what those around us think…especially in a world where “constant change is here to stay.”
EDITED TO ADD: The following message appeared on Joshua Harris’ Facebook page on December 3, 2011:
In June I announced that my publisher was releasing a new version of Boy Meets Girl. But since then I asked my publisher to postpone this re-release because I wanted to make sure I had the time to process the critique and concerns many people have shared with me about Boy Meets Girl and I Kissed Dating Goodbye (i.e., that they encourage a legalistic approach to relationships). I want to make sure I’ve carefully considered that critique and evaluated the book in light of new lessons God is teaching me and my local church (for more on that please see this webpage). If there are significant edits or changes that need to be made I want to make sure and clearly explain those to readers.
But right now our church is facing a very unique season and I just don’t have the time to give the attention and focus to any writing project. My publisher was very gracious and agreed to indefinitely postpone any new edition.
For more on what I’ve been learning since I wrote both these books, see this post that features several messages I’ve given in the past few years.
Kris says: I’m starting to have more hope that Josh Harris is one of the SGM leaders who actually understands that honesty and openness, along with full disclosure, are total necessities these days.
Kris
Another good post. It sad that Josh Harris in his “kissing dating goodbye” identified all these problems he sees with dating while not admitting any of the problems KDG has caused over the years. Though Josh Harris is relatively young, CLC has been teaching various forms of KDG for over 30 years. Thus he should have been aware of its problems. Its not like it is unusual for couples that marry under their KDG/Courtship system rarely get divorced.
If nothing else, Josh Harris should ask some serious questions like why did these “model” couples whose stories he shared in his book get divorced. Was there something about “courtship” that either ill prepared the couple for marriage or made them a bad match to begin with and thus divorcing?
It would be good if sometime Josh Harris would admit the problems that KDG/courtship have caused.
Here’s the thing though – people use even the holiest and good of books, the Bible to distort, misapply it to their lives, etc. But that’s not the fault of the author. Should God have to apologize because some people are using His words to the extreme?
There’s some amazing marriages that courtship has produced. There are some marriages that haven’t worked out. Welcome to the fallen world. He shouldn’t have to apologize for some lemmings taking it to the nth degree. Just like anything open to human interpretation, some people take it the wrong way or to the extreme. That’s not the author’s fault or responsibility. And for the record, Josh did address how CLC made certain choices into principles. Will that step not be recognized? Let’s give some grace for steps in the right direction and offer prayers for the rest to be restored in God’s good time.
Melinda-
Josh’s step is the smallest of incy wincy baby steps for a man that has overseen a church that has required absolute submission of it’s memebers and has taught specific confession of sin to all hrmed, or else be excommunicated or disciplined.
When will he practice what he preached with the same conviction that he pursued others that he pastored? He can either prctice what he preaches or admit that what he preached was wrong and give specific reasons why it was wrong. Until he does that in a very public matter, he should not be trusted.
And for the record, it is not because IKDG/BMG is misapplied that people have issues, it’s because it is lousy advice and does more harm than good for the average person. Calling it a mere misapplication of his teaching is not an accurate assesment of how this teaching has been ruhtlessly enforced by SGM and CLC.
Melinda
I agree and disagree with you on the misapplication. How would you feel if a company kept having a number of people get their hands injured with a certain machine and said it must be careless employees. Would it be right to blame it all on careless employees? Maybe the machine wasn’t safe.
Thus if IKDG and courtship keeps getting missapplied shouldn’t the equivalent of the machine (the book) be at least partially blamed? The especially true when IKDG/coursthip is being presented a a far superior system.
Melinda
I agree that some people may distort and misapply certain teachings or what they may read in books etc. I would not say this is what is happening here though. This is more than just misapplying teachings from a book.
A generation of people and their families were taught to elevate a certain practice (courtship) and it became an integral part of an entire culture/lifestyle. It was supported by constant teachings with specific mandated applications. There were negative consequences if these teachings were not lived out the way they “should” be. There was shunning and people were excluded if they did not adhere to the way things were taught.
When someone follows the teachings of their pastors and caregroup leaders and friends within a culture, you call them “lemmings”?.
When pastors take a certain practice and elevate it to a principle of scripture that is to be lived out, that is called legalism. It is serious sin. It damages many people,and their relationships, and it distorts the character of God. You want to give grace to those who are irresponsible and damaging, and condem the lemmings?
Melinda asked,
Uh…I’d say comparing Josh Harris to God is not exactly appropriate? :D I mean, really?
Of course we would hold human authors to a different standard than the Lord.
It never ceases to amaze that people insist on mollycoddling people who should be seasoned enough to take a bit of heat while these same people unleash draconian measures against the slightest infraction coming from innocent children that should, to a degree, be mollycoddled.
A few points of clarification:
1. I’m not comparing Josh to God. I’m saying that even a perfect book is used to hurt people.
2. I used the word lemmings in the same way I would say blind followers, bandwagon jumpers, etc. I was there – I lived what you’re describing. I’m not condemning, but I am saying that individuals have personal responsibility to listen to God and follow His will in their lives. Eve didn’t get a pass because the snake told her to do it.
3. I disagree with you Musicaman. I don’t think many of us can truly understand what a huge step it was for Josh to coordinate the meetings at his house and hear from the hurting. Do you know how many stories were told? Do you get that he was a product of this culture and has had to see all of this, change midstream, build consensus, go against his mentor and take a lot of heat from both sides for all this? His leadership in this way is absolutely unprecedented within SGM. Everyone who dared to disagree before was cut out. Did he do it perfectly, nope. But I believe, because I’ve specifically conversed with him, that he’s genuinely trying. People don’t recover from high demand groups overnight. Why does anyone here expect that of leaders within SGM?
4. I’m squarely in the camp of wanting reform to SGM. I’m not the enemy here.
:new
When I first began attending a SGM church there were a lot of things I felt completely out of the loop on, hence courtship. :scratch I dated before and just seemed like there were all these rules and “ways to court.” The first time I read BMG there was a sense of doubt that *every* relationship would/”should” work this way. :huh So for the first few months it was straining on every friendship that I would come into contact with the opposite sex :bang :beat :trainwreck (btw thanks for whoever added the emoticons). A few years have passed and I have learned a lot about my own personal view on courtship and how “perfect” the idea seemed when you read it, when in actuality it’s not true. Friendships, romantic or casual, are not always easy, if they are then there’s something wrong. I have learned to trust God in what He has for my future wife and praying through everything recent in my life that He would guide me and teach me to be a better man. Though I feel as though the conceptual idea of the book is “good,” the reality is, we’re fallen. Sinful boy meets Sinful girl would be a better title, if I may say so.
I think I am going on a blog reading vacation until this subject has passed. The SGM courtship concept has damaged myself and friends of mine to much to be able to rationally talk about it……….
Melinda
Unprecedented baby steps in the right direction, in light of the scores harmed by the system, should be given standing ovations? Especially when these baby steps are recent and prompted by many who have been shunned for years? Seems like a pretty low bar for praise.
@Jimmy – I’m not standing in an ovation. I’m saying that I saw that moment as a change in the right direction. For someone who is doing that from within the group, after being raised in the same environment that we grew up in, I think that’s a good thing.
Melinda
I have no hate for your optimism when talking to me, one of the lemmings, so long as when you talk to josh you’re telling him he was part of an oligarchy and his actions so far have been meager.
I guess my thing is, sure, people misapply the Bible. But when that happens, because it’s the Bible, we know that the problem always lies with the reader and not the author.
We cannot say that when the book has a human author. You know?
So when Josh Harris expressed regret for the way that his books’ ideas were misapplied, that wasn’t actually an apology…unless he was apologizing for the mistakes his readers made.
And now to think that this book is going to be re-released…well…I’m thinking that a whole lot of new chapters need to be added, explaining the many pitfalls and what the reader ought NOT to “misapply.” Otherwise, those same teachings are going to go on to ensnare a whole new generation of young people.
I’ll try to articulate a few more thoughts. I think there are systemic problems with SGM in regards to a culture of legalism and un-wise/unBiblical polity structures. I believe the legalism applied to courtship is a symptom of the larger problem, not the problem itself. It’s a small distinction, but I think important.
@Jimmy, I gave him some very candid feedback. I encouraged him to do more. I continue to pray. I believe that God is at work. Sure, I want it faster and completely to my liking, but since beating legalism into my head wasn’t my favorite thing, I won’t be beating condemnation into his either.
AAMN,
Hello, and welcome. Thanks for the comment.
Even though our kids were really little at the time and years away from thinking about the opposite sex, I was bothered at our SGM church by the way the young people (older teens and young adults) were a study in awkwardness. It was like every guy-gal interaction or casual conversation was doomed to quickly become this big deal. You could see the kids watching one another, too…looking for signs of who might like whom. I could imagine it’d be easier for males and females to just stay completely away from each other – which seemed to be what happened a lot of the time. Which just added to the overwrought atmosphere. There were 20-year-olds who, when it came to their peers, seemed to have the social maturity of junior highers.
I couldn’t imagine our kids growing up in the midst of that. It was one of the reasons I kept thinking something was wrong with our church, something mysterious that no one else seemed to have noticed or talked about. Why couldn’t these young men and young women just behave naturally with one another?
I think the answer comes from decades of teachings that wormed their way through the entire SGM organization. Harris’ Boy Meets Girl and IKDG were a piece of it. So was Carolyn Mahaney’s “You must always behave like you’re talking with some other woman’s husband” spiel.
IKDG placed a lot of emphasis on not just physical purity (which is good and biblical), but also the much more vague and difficult-to-define concept of not giving away pieces of one’s heart to someone other than one’s ultimate spouse. There was this idea that “real Christians” would “guard their hearts” so as to never feel anything romantic toward anyone who didn’t end up becoming their husband or wife.
I think that until these larger ideas – like the false concept that “giving away pieces of your heart” makes you somehow less “whole” for your spouse and is therefore a sin – are acknowledged as faulty, a little bit of back-pedaling (expressing regret that readers “misapplied” the books) is not going to do much to fix things.
I’m wondering if Josh is thinking perhaps the SGM/CJ issue is more pressing than the IKDG book issue? Kris mentioned that he did remove some offending parts of the book. It seems like some here are expecting 100% perfection from this man when he is making strides in the positive direction in so many ways. There are a LOT of fires to put out.
I think it is a bogus criticism to say that people ‘misapplied’ Josh’s advice from his book. That argument has been used by other pastors in SGM, for other formulaic teachings, too. But, I’m afraid that argument is just a convenient way to dodge culpability for error.
A book like IKDG is used as a self-help tool by vulnerable people facing one of the life’s most important decisions. If a manufactured tool were found to be dangerous in any way, it would be instantly recalled and posters would be plastered on walls in stores to warn people against buying it.
Likewise, I think Josh should recall any of his books that have brought unrealistic expectations or produced serious pitfalls to even a small percentage of his readers. At the very least he should halt production. That would be the responsible thing to do. Changing a few stories doesn’t do enough to ameliorate the problem.
jewel
Josh should remove the book from sales completely and take the proceeds from that book and divide it between all those who have come forward to share horror stories of what happend to them.
Making strides in a positive direction does not mean you are no longer responsible for damages done to others. The “mistakes” he has admitted to that harmed his brothers and sisters could be the first fires he attends to. I don’t know why you say some are expecting 100% perfection. Perfection is not even an issue.
You say hes made strides in a positive direction but nothing has been established, no changes have been made. The house meetings, the open forums, all those things he has been praised for doing, are no longer allowed. It may be that constant change is still here to stay.
Why is he re -releasing this book in the first place? That should be a clue.
Jedi,
In post 20 you said:
“The house meetings, the open forums, all those things he has been praised for doing, are no longer allowed.”
No longer allowed by whom?
Chuck 2.0
One of the main issues I see with the “courtship” model is, again, a control issue. It seems that people think that if they can control the whole relationship process between x and y, then all will turn out rosy. What I see happen, though, is x and y come to depend on their parents, in some cases one set of parents, as the “final word.” Then comes marriage day – and the day after and so forth and so on, and many times these couples were not encouraged to go to the Word and their heavenly Father in prayer, apart and together, and learn to interact as two human beings with a heavenly Father that can speak to both of them separately as well as together. The courtship model, carried to the nth, is just another instance of someone standing “in the stead of God” on your behalf. Parents who tend to be legalistic anyway can easily fall into “over controlling” the relationship. It’s as if they are saying God can ONLY work and speak through us into your lives.
I have seen, first hand, parents strongly encourage young men that if they want to court their daughter, then they must basically be discipled by the girl’s father (especially if the young man’s parents don’t seem to be “up to par” as far as the girl’s parents think). It is all very controlling and, in some cases, almost choosing for your child. And, of course, if the dude hits it off with Dad, then it must be a match made in heaven – right? And, if the young man doesn’t hit it off with Dad so much – it must not be the right guy? It can all be so controlling with seemingly little room for God to be at work doing what He wills – well not really, but you know what I mean :wink:
Please don’t think that I am against moms and dads having input and children desiring wisdom, prayer, and some questions from their parents, but there needs to be some faith in God mixed in with all of this and not just systematic processes – eek.
And what if x doesn’t have Christian parents? Then y’s parents might feel they “really” need to take matters into their own hands IF they even let their y date x with the heathen parents. X might not be a “good enough” Christian for their y – right? I’ve seen it all under the guise of being “godly and wise parents.”
If there are too many fires to put out, then Josh could tell his publisher to put the whole thing on hold…which actually MAY (here’s hoping) be what happened.
Imalone –
That was my question on the previous thread.
“Josh may well be in this category after hearing Jimmy’s story and knowing the problems his book has caused. Why republish the book? Does the good fruit outweigh the bad, or is it a desire for income? Think about it Josh.”
Persona (#19) and Bridget (#23) –
Those comments reflect my thoughts exactly.
Re-releasing Josh’s books cannot really be about anything other than financial gain.
I’m guessing it was the publisher’s idea. I can’t imagine any thinking person in Josh’s position actually initiating putting those books back out there at a time like this.
I wonder, how much input does an author have, when his publisher decides to re-release new editions of his books? It seemed, from Josh’s June blog post asking for feedback about cover choices, that he must be at least somewhat involved in the process.
Here is my perspective on IKDG…
First of all, when it came out, i was in the singles “scene” at Covenant Fellowship Church… I do not remember if it was required reading, as so many books are, but everyone was reading it – it definitely caught on and became one of those things, that, although not taught from the pulpit, was expected to be followed – as so many other cultural unspoken “teachings” in SGM…
The legalism existed before the book came out – i was derided for talking to “sisters” w/o brothers present, corrected for driving a “sister” to a care group… Told by a pastor that the woman i wanted to marry, and did marry, that he “could not recommend me to her” for the way i was “courting her” and would tell her so – a threat that i challenged him on, and he ultimately repented…
But when IKDG came out, i noticed that all “courting couples” broke off their relationships…. waited six months or so, then got back together and got married… I swear, there were several couples who did this – it seemed to be expected, not so much by pastors, as far as i knew, but by peers… The same peers who corrected me anytime i sat on a blanket at a frisbee game and spoke with a “sister” instead of playing frisbee…
One of the most respected men in our church – i will say to this day, he is a major Prophet of God, if there ever was one… and i respect him greatly!! and SGM has recognized him for his gifts outside of the local church ( a major guy in SGM,i guess i am saying)… Met and married his wife w/in 4 weeks time….
This marriage occurred years before the whole courtship thing… They are happily and successfully married to this day – so do not tell me there is only one way!!!
I keep hearing people prais Joshua for having the first meetings in his own home where people could come and share their stories. This is one of the “huge” strides he’s made. But this is not first time this has ever happened in clc. When josh first came to clc, he had some old timers over to his house to ask questions.
He is not having these in home meetings anymore, they were highly discouraged from SGM. And the “Open Mic” family meetings that were a big hit with most people(but SGM despised)are no longer “open Mic” meetings. We had 3 meetings where the members could ask any question and the pastors would try to answer. I believe they stopped the open mic because they said it was not as productive as they would like. I actually think it is because too much information was being brought out into the light and they would rather keep it all as low profile as possible. One on one meetings and small groups.
Let’s face it; books on subjects like “courtship” simply do not need to be written, period. They just don’t.
I respect Josh an awful lot, but I’ve found all his books on dating and courtship to be, frankly, a ridiculous subliminal appeal to a time of Puritanical utopia. Unfortunately, here’s the rub: it never existed! Along with courtship, I seem to recall that burning women at the stake was also quite fashionable back in the blissful, spiritually cosmopolitan days of the Puritanical “sound doctrine”.
SGM needs to just cut the legalistic excrement altogether to be frank and start treating people like adults with brains. Imagine, the hubris of Josh or CJ telling a woman or man with two Ph.D.s, or an M.D., or a business owner, or a manager, or a home-schooling father or a police man or woman, or a school principle, that they are too dumb to even discern who they are in love with and who they feel compliments them in a loving marriage relationship. Ug. Stop majoring in disputable matters and minoring in God’s love, forbearance, and acceptance.
Books like Josh’s only confuse people, and bind their minds unnecessarily. Though his motives may have been benign (as John Immel points out, ARE ALWAYS the motives of wolves, who are animals that act upon instinct and love of lamb chops, not on malice or evil, necessarily), think of WHY a guy like Josh and his books appealed to CJ, et al. ’nuff said. It’s just another way to get the children of God to doubt themselves; tell themselves they are idiots who can’t think straight. And gee, what would be attractive about that to a guy like CJ? Very simply…EVERYTHING.
Josh, this kind of thing is just up CJ’s Happy Pastor alley. It’s just another brick in the wall of spiritual abuse: Hey you, out there in the cold always doing what you’re told can you help me?…hey you, lowly pew sitter…muck and mold-covered polder of our palace above the water…just sit there, shut up, stop asking questions, and remember, WE’LL tell you where you can work, how much you can work, where you can live, teach you the Systematic Theology Jitter Bug, and who YOU WILL MARRY. Because you can’t even be trusted to go on a date alone with a girl…or boy…or the I-Can’t-Quite-Tell-These-Days contingent. Just remember that, Sheep!
@jimmy
Do you still believe in Christianity or did your experience turn u off to God completely?
So Josh gets to make more money off another book…..bravo. :?
In SGM “churches” where dads follow the pastors in lockstep, the fathers yearn for a way to make themselves feel more powerful. What better way to exalt one’s own self than to play God with any suitors desiring to get to know a daughter who is viewed by her father as private property for ego enhancement.
What’s really sad is that these girls are getting older and their biological time clocks are ticking…. Their needs and desires are almost totally ignored as their fathers rule with an iron scepter. Many of these young couples only court three months before tying the knot. Is it any wonder that their marriages could be at risk?
These dads don’t want a real man of character for their daughter. They want yes men who are still boys so their daughters will always look to dad as the patriarch of the entire clan. It’s EMOTIONAL INCEST.
Jedi, :word you would not be surprised at listening to the 9/2010 meeting at KWCC in which ‘the dave’ on behalf of SGM came to Midlothian and told that congregation that they wouldn’t even be having family meetings anymore, much less open mic times, unless someone’s sin was necessary to discuss. I might be slightly off but that meeting’s recording was still on KWCC’s site last time I looked if you want to hear more of that kind of control. And oh yeah, he also said if you don’t like it maybe you need to leave. Which half the people did. :clap
This describes the hell many of these girls experience: http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/
I will be happy with SGM when they are a footnote awash in a sea of footnotes, written in very small print accompanied by several even smaller asterisks in an unfortunately large book written probably a long time from now on the Systematic Theological Review of Extremely Depressing and Off-Putting Doctrinal Missteps and Heresies and the Resulting Inevitable Emotional and Spiritual Fallout of the Late 20 and Early 21st Century. And the subsequent blog which the grandchildren of Kris, and Guy, and Jim, and Dee, and Deb will start, called: SGM’s Generous and Selfless Contribution to Modern Western Atheism).
forgot to mention in #28…
someone fill me in on the details to this, but i do specifically remember a few years back when a leader at New Attitude said this: “guys, ask the girls out!!!”
You see, after years of legalism regarding dating, and especially after IKDG came out, no one was dating – all the singles were filled w/ fear about showing interest in another single…
I can not explain how this took shape at cfc but it did…. everyone was full of fear – it’s just not natural!!!!!! Obviously not what God intended…
This book did do some damage…
Josh Harris has a keen sense of timing for business marketing and making money. Some people are so seriously duped about this guy.
I visited his blog where he asks everyone to chime in on which cover they prefer to see on his new book. One cover shows a drawing of a girl and a guy walking together. Here is what I suggested they add:
“I think you need to put a drawing of the girl’s dad in the middle of the couple…. Have the guy holding hands with the dad the way it really works.”
Honestly. :barf:
I’m getting confused,but since I have honest questions and possibly a somewhat different view of the book issue under discussion, I’ll venture forth and take my chances. My thoughts are random, so my comments and queries may not follow a chronological pattern.
1. I’m not a statistician, but instinct and logic tell me that there isn’t enough information in these discussions to draw definitive conclusions of a correlation between application of the courtship theories and methods and subsequent failed marriages. Don’t marriages fail for many different reasons? I’m open to correction here based on proper analysis, not just emotion.
For instance, can we conclude that a specific failed marriage is directly the fault of a family’s practicing (not the right verb perhaps) courtship principles as taken from this book? If we can so conclude, then wouldn’t we have to factor in how many “courtship marriages” were and are still successful? And would we allow anyone to conclude that such “successes” were *because* of the value of the book? If we do not attach a cause and effect in the case of success, can we be fair and assign a cause and effect in the case of failure?
Also, to draw sound conclusions, wouldnt we need to know the percentage of marriages that failed where the couple or their parents (both sets) never even heard of Joshua Harris or practiced any courtship rituals, simply met, fell in love, got married, and yet could not or did not make it work? And also know the percentage that — without courtship — met fell in love, got married and did make it work?
2. Is it wrong, when a book is successfully marketed, for the author to gain financially from his success? I sense a negative feeling here about earning royalties from publishing — or am I wrong? It seems that unless the author (in this case Josh Harris) pledges to give away all profits, that somehow he’s doing something wrong or not exactly morally clean.
Now, these are honest queries. Before anyone jumps, please know I am not defending anything that was done dishonestly or unscrupulously — such as publishing “jimmy’s” story without his consent with a signed release — that appears to be unconscionable or certainly a huge and immature (at best) blunder.
What I am asking about and concerned about is the unwarranted conclusion that if a courtship-based marriage fails, it somehow has to be the fault of the method, rather than — possibly — human failure and sinfulness.
These comments bring back so many memories, even though my experience with SGM over the years has been fleeting. I remember attending Bill Gothard seminars as a young woman right out of college and a new Christian in the mid ’70s. I got much good from it, particularly the teaching on making wise appeals instead of demands and how to apologize in a way that brings true forgiveness. The teachings on marriage and children made little impact, as I was happily single and focused on my relationship with God. I do remember around age 22 going to my alcoholic atheist dad and announcing that from now on I’d like to ask interested fellows to call him and ask permission to date me. He immediately announced he’d do no such thing, which was a huge relief because at least I’d given it the old Gothard try. I’m pretty sure Gothard taught that unmarried adult children were under the authority of even heathen fathers, but thankfully mine was never interested in the job.
@Friendly Observer – yes, my point exactly.
We could take a poll of the healthiest married couples we know and ask them if they courted, dated or lived together before they were married. We would hear a delightful variety of answers and yet somehow the couples are happily married.
There are SGM pastors and wives who eloped without their parents’ knowledge, there are some who married single-moms, there are some who were virgins and some who were not, and there were some who married each other before they were even Believers. There is also at least one that survived an extra-marital affair.
SGM is simply not cookie-cutter when it comes to true life stories and that is a good thing. So, why pass along cookie-cutter advice to the next generation?
Is there something that generally happens when a SGM couple divorces, i.e. do they leave the church and then divorce? Is remarriage frowned upon? Is a divorced church member viewed as tainted and less likely to find friends?
@Persona, Yes, I agree with you about the diversity. That’s why I don’t have a problem with his books. It’s a free market place of ideas. If his principles worked for you, awesome. If you balk at them, feel the freedom in Christ to do something else.
Friendly Observer said,
I spent some time re-reading both I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Boy Meets Girl this past summer, just to refresh my memory as to what Josh Harris actually said in those books.
And here’s the thing…
While of course marriages fail for all sorts of reasons, and while of course the courtship ideas outlined in Boy Meets Girl were not expressly presented as some sort of foolproof way to create a perfect and everlasting marriage, the fact remains that both IKDG and BMG are saturated with one main message: The way “the world” goes about the spouse-finding process is wrong, wrong, wrong! Here is a far more righteous, spiritually superior way of doing things that safeguards young people from giving away their hearts and sinning against God.
As someone else mentioned, particularly Boy Meets Girl would be a thin volume indeed, if the anecdotal stories Josh used as “evidence” for the superiority of courtship were removed. Stories like Megan’s and Kerrin’s comprised probably at least half the book. Megan’s and Kerrin’s story was specifically used – complete with lengthy excerpts from Megan’s journals – as “proof” for the notion that one’s initial gut-level attraction (or lack thereof) to a person is not really a valid reason to refuse to enter into a courtship with that person. Other considerations, like the person’s “godly character” (as perceived by one’s friends and parents), are far more important than attraction and romantic emotions. The story of Megan and Kerrin’s wedding was shared as a sort of grand finale, a way to show how a “truly biblical” marriage that had been built in a church community would look.
Now, it’s true that Josh Harris never said that M&K’s relationship was destined for everlasting success because they followed the parentally supervised courtship system rather than dating in the ordinary way, without input from their parents and friends. Josh never said their marriage was somehow divorce-proof.
But it was so totally insinuated that one’s marriage will have a better chance if one finds one’s spouse with the “wise counsel” of one’s parents, pastors, and church friends, and if one “guards one’s heart” and all that sort of baloney.
So, no – of course Josh Harris and his books are not responsible for the bust-up of marriages that came about because of courtship. BUT, if Josh and his publisher are going to try for another go-round with these books, making money off of them, they really need to be exceedingly careful to quit holding up these example couples as ideals to be emulated. And there needs to be at least a couple of chapters devoted to the discussion of all the pitfalls of courtship. It’s only fair, when dating is trashed at the beginning of IKDG.
Anyway, to be clear – in no way do I mean to insinuate that the courtship system as outlined in BMG is somehow responsible for bad marriages. But just as many bad marriages have resulted from courtship as from dating – and that actually contradicts one of the large themes of both books. That is what needs to be clarified, if these books are to be re-released.
(But I’m starting to agree with Argo’s point in #30. Books like Boy Meets Girl really don’t need to be written in the first place…let alone re-published.)
I guess I also have to go back to the analogy someone made earlier – if a company manufactured a tool that had injured a lot of people, it wouldn’t really matter if plenty of others had been able to use the tool without incident. A responsible company would feel compelled to have appropriate warnings distributed with any new versions of the tool, as well as descriptions of the kinds of mishaps people had had.
Friendly Observer, I know these churches firsthand. I know large numbers of young people involved. I know their parents very well. I see the devastation, the hurt, the frustration and the tears felt by the daughters. I see the paranoia of the parents with both sons and daughters.
You know sometimes a little common sense can go a long way.
As in parents rearing their children to become mature Christian adults and then leaving it to the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives when it comes to adult decisions they must make.
As in fathers treating mature young Christian men with the respect they deserve rather than treating them as subservient peons. Do you think it gets a relationship started in a positive direction when a mature Christian man in his twenties is told he “must court the girl’s father” before he can be given “permission” to court the man’s daughter? It’s happening in SGM churches.
What young man in his right mind would pursue a girl with a sick dad like that. Like it or not, when you marry someone you get involved with the in-laws. A wise person would avoid that type of situation and many are.
Do you think it helps foster godly relationships when a father will not allow any mature Christian suitor to speak to his daughter until he fills out a 100 question questionaire? It’s happening in SGM churches.
Yes, if the in-laws are trying to control their adult children in their twenties to this extent, then you can bet marriage problems are ahead.
Add to that the EXPECTATION in many of these courtships that the couple must marry within 3-6 months and you’ve got not only trouble, but complete idiocy. There are people who spend more time looking for a house to live in. A person you’re considering potentially marrying takes time to get to know. A girl is not a mere purchase, although many of these girls are treated like property.
I saw a book cover once that showed a newly married couple under the covers of their bed. At the end of the covers there were 6 feet sticking out – two of the feet in the middle belonged to one of the in-laws. That is your average SGM courtship family. You tell me if that makes for a good marriage.
Some things are just common sense.
As for Josh’s making money off his books, he’s a shark in sheep’s clothing. Yes, there is a huge problem with the way he has failed to adequately address the many heartbreaking situations that have resulted from over-controlling parents sticking their fingers into the lives of their adult children. This book is well timed for a reason and it has everything to do with enhancing a following which Josh very much needs at this moment.
Jim
That question does not have a straightforward answer.
@jimmy
Are u a Christian? Or….. Did your experience make u conclude that Jesus and Christianity not true.
People have fallen into one of two extremes:
1. Courtship as practiced in SGM churches.
2. Dating as widely practiced in our culture.
There is a third option.
I’ll give you a hint at the first step: Rear a child into a mature Christian you can trust. Rear a child into a person you have a trusting relationship with. Rear a child who grows into a mature adult, takes responsibility well and possesses a genuine walk with the Lord. Rear a child who knows he is a sinner in need of a Savior and who knows the Gospel is his true hope.
Once all of those understandings are in place, you really can leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide both you and your adult children. They will naturally desire your input because your relationship is healthy and strong. You will naturally trust them to prayerfully go to the Lord as they get to know a number of different people, all of whom are Christians. In this way they gain knowledge and confidence to discern whom God may bless them with as a future spouse. They will ask for parental input because they respect their parent’s wisdom, but they know that in the end the decision of who to choose as a spouse is between them and God. They will answer to God as mature adults.
Too many courtship parents are pushing their kids into relationships prematurely.
In other words, courtship as it is practiced in SGM churches shows a FAILURE on the part of parents to develop a trusting relationship with their adult children.
It shows a lack of faith on the part of the parents in realizing that God is sovereign and able to guide their adult children through the Holy Spirit.
It shows a pitiful disregard for the dignity of many of these home schooled young people who stand so far above many of their public schooled peers in the area of moral accountability.
And to me it shows that in all likelihood many of these baby boomer SGM parents who are so obsessed with controlling their adult children must have themselves led immoral lives at one time. I do not know how else to explain their fear of letting go and letting God.
Jimmy, I think of a quote: “I like your Jesus, but I dont like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Jesus” (Gandhi)
He is different from what you have experienced..seek Him…The rest is just argument..
Let me clarify-my previous post is not a reflection of anyone here or many others..it is just to encourage Jimmy that people who do not reflect Jesus should not be considered, that it is about a personal relationship with Him first, and above all.
Does anyone need another Christian book of do’s and don’ts? These books that focus on practice have the potential to be so divisive. Why even go there?
Wouldn’t it be better for Josh to write a book about principles rather than practice? These books about practice just make CLC look spiritually immature, IMHO. How about delving into the subject of grace?
Take a painfully honest look at the fruit of CLC/SGM’s focus on practice: There’s a whole generation of kids who grew up in CLC who want NOTHING to do with Christianity. This is the fruit of CLC/SGM.
How can any version of IKDG be of any benefit right now?
Jim
My tenure in sgm taught me that faith is used as a tool of manipulation, and my education taught me the humility and wisdom of polite skepticism. I’m an empiricist. To me, the Truth is a functionally unobtainable ideal. An empiricist, a scientist, does not arrogantly claim to know the truth. An empiricist displays honest humility and seeks to gain closer and closer approximations of the truth. Closer approximations being judged as those theories or models that are built on reproducible observations and make progressively more accurate predictions of future events. So, I trust what is tractible and reproducible and predictive. I am not metaphysical. I know there is stuff in the universe beyond my or human understanding, which is why I do my best to keep learning with a skeptical open mind. But if you entertain 1 idea based on little evidence you have to entertain every idea based on little evidence, if you are to be consistent.
All I am is a student. I have been in school since I was 6. I’m 33 now and I’m still in school. I’m willing to learn and to incorporate new ideas backed by evidence. If god exists, I’m gonna need a sensory interaction. Faith was used to manipulate me and that will never happen again.
Jimmy, forget SGM a minute. They’re history for sure.
You ask some good questions. You know there are over 333 prophecies in the Old Testament, many written hundreds and thousands of years prior to Christ’s walking this earth in the New Testament?
You say you’re a student for life. That’s good. I am too. You said you’re willing to learn and to incorporate new ideas backed by evidence.
Here’s a sampling, one of four parts showing some of those prophecies and their fulfillments. How do you explain this?
You know that Josephus, a first century secular historian, has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels? He documented important events of that time pertaining to Christ even though he himself was not a follower. How do you explain this?
No need to respond here, but thought I’d share a little bit of evidence I’ve found with you in case you’re really interested.
Here’s the sampling of evidence, Jimmy:
http://www.schoolofchrist.com/ReadMore.aspx?id=65&cid=5
http://www.schoolofchrist.com/ReadMore.aspx?id=66&cid=5
http://www.schoolofchrist.com/ReadMore.aspx?id=67&cid=5
http://www.schoolofchrist.com/ReadMore.aspx?id=69&cid=5
I seemed to recall hearing a recent interview with someone who had written a book on the pitfalls of homeschooling. He mentioned that while homeschooling is a good idea for those who feel called to do it, many parents are going into it for the wrong reasons. His point was that many parents felt it was a way to assume complete control over their children’s lives to ensure a perfect outcome. Of course if that’s the motive then the results are not going to be good.
I wonder if you could apply these same conclusions on the courtship teaching. While I haven’t read the books I can appreciate a perspective that there are many problems with the way modern western culture has approached dating and finding a mate. A concept of more parental involvement with more focus on finding a mate for long-term friendship rather than just short-term lust is a good idea. But ANYTHING that is used as a formula and a system with the desire to exercise control to ensure a certain outcome is not a good idea. Those systems either produce legalists (inwardly rebellious) or heathens (outwardly rebellious).
From reading some of the comments here from the books Josh Harris is written I’m reminded of some of my debates with people regarding the principles that Dr. Warren put forward with the concept of EHarmony. Dr. Warren has a long history of marital counseling, and over time concluded that what really makes a successful marriage are long-term compatibility traits and not those things that are picked up through initial encounters. As a result He and Eharmony completely down-played the importance of initial attraction and chemistry. The problem with this approach is that it ignored a very important reality. Of course if you ask any couple that’s been successfully married for years what are the most important components of their success they’re going to say things like good communication, being alike in many more areas than being different, having similar backgrounds and cultural understandings, etc. etc. etc., but none of these are the reason people start talking to each other initially. God designed for there to be a visual component as well as an initial attraction based on things that we can’t necessarily put into words.
Many people probably don’t know this, but over the years as they faced more and more complaints, EHarmony actually backed off their initial emphasis, and finally came out with statements to the effect that attraction and initial chemistry IS important, BUT that couples have to move beyond this to discover if they are truly compatible for a long-term successful relationship. My response was, WELL DUHHHHHHHHHHHH :) Nobody thinks you can build a successful relationship on just attraction, but it’s silly to think you can bypass this initial process.
Why is it soooo hard to understand that rather than trying to control the dating process, we as parents should be guiding it. I’m a single dad of 4 kids, and have been for over 12 years. My kids are now 20, 18, 16, & 14. I’ve seen my share of the ups and downs of single relationships. You have to strike a balance between knowing when to step in and when to allow your kids to make some decisions on their own. I’ve made my share of mistakes. Any parent that thinks they can adopt a full-proof system with any aspect of parenting is fooling themselves.
Patricia said, ““I think you need to put a drawing of the girl’s dad in the middle of the couple…. Have the guy holding hands with the dad the way it really works.”
Awesome idea!
Jim, I am curious why it was so important for you to know jimmy’s beliefs.
Friendly Observer #38: I don’t think the problem is courtship — IMO, the problem is the coercion of courtship that occurred within SGM, and the coercion of so many other practices that most Christians see as opt-in or opt-out.
Long before IKDG, our senior pastor announced one Sunday that he wanted to meet with all the singles down front after the service. They all walked down front, stood in a group — were not even asked to sit down — and the pastor told them, in so many words, that there would be no more dating. That ‘we’ believe in group activities only — you know the rest.
If you came to church on Sunday morning and a single man and woman were sitting next to each other, you could bet the farm that their engagement was going to be announced that day. Prior to that day, they were never seen together. Ever. Now, would someone tell me why sitting next to a person to whom you are not engaged is somehow wrong?
My kids went off to college. One Sunday, my son invited a college girl who lived in our area to attend church when they were both home for a week-end. Simply a friend. A FRIEND. They sat next to each other. After the service, we were congratulated on their engagement. Groan.
One day, another son was listening to a sermon and I was in the room as it played. I assumed it was from a pastor in another SGM church. Then, the preacher used the terms ‘girlfriend/boyfriend’ and he might as well have cussed in front of the pope. I nearly fell out of my chair –proof enough that the speaker was not involved with SGM!
We went to a church sweetheart banquet. They called on people to stand up and tell how they met. I remember after our turn, feeling mortified that we had revealed that 1) we met in a youth group, and 2) that we had dated — though every couple our age had surely dated, but now that we had one of those better understandings, we regretted that we’d missed out on the benefits of courtship. Gag.
I don’t know statistics about marriages that failed and whether any such thing can be attributed directly to the mode of engagement. But I will say that the coercion of courtship caused people to get married when they otherwise might have remained single longer. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone being coerced to date, but I know several who felt coerced to court.
Once, my elderly mom observed a young engaged couple, and said, “You know, they just don’t seem to have much passion for each other. It takes an awful lot of passion to get you through the rough times.” After forty years of marriage, I see that she’s right. When times get tough, it’s the chemistry that kicks in and reminds you that you cannot live without that person and you’ll stick with them no matter what. What a joyful thing God gave us in that kind of chemistry — though for many years in many cultures, people have not enjoyed the luxury of marrying someone they’re head over heels in love with. They married for convenience, or for land, or for position, or title. No doubt love surely can develop in those situations, but how sad to miss out on the chemistry, the spark, the passion that cannot be explained or contrived.
Maybe I’m a hopeless romantic, but I’d put my money on developing a good, solid mature relationship on the foundation of being head-over-heels in love as opposed to trying to work up a head-over-heels relationship on the foundation of an arranged, yet amicable friendship. Some things you just can’t work up.
The courtship coercion is another symptom of the fact that SGM is a ‘holiness’ movement. A pastor friend of mine used that term while describing SGM, and I felt like I’d been hit with a ton of bricks. We’d never have knowingly joined a legalistic, holiness, kind of church — you know, the independent fundamental or pentecostal holiness types that frown upon lipstick, legislate skirt lengths, require that you promise not to attend “R”-rated movies, read Harry Potter, or fraternize with those who do.
In our college-educated, somewhat intellectual SGM circles, we believed in spiritual freedom. Yet, in our zeal for becoming ‘godly’ and our fear of license, we acquiesced when SGM began to mandate the practices we’d formerly seen as limited to the holiness churches. Actually, we barely noticed. Our legalisms were no longer driven by conscience, but by conformity and fear. So, now, though we steered clear of largely blue-collar, low-education-level holiness groups, we woke up one day and realized that we’d become a white-collar, well-educated holiness church — only nobody used that label.
I’m with Kris — I agree that it’s likely the publisher who wants to take these books on another lap around the cash register. In the meantime, anybody want to tackle a book touting they way they found their mate? Hey, if it worked for you, it will probably work for everybody, and we can all kiss every other option goodbye.
I have witnessed gross manipulation involving pastors and members negotiating marriages behind the backs of future brides. It was nauseating, ungodly, unnecessary and hurtful. So, I for one, do not believe courtship reduces sinful behavior in the least. I can’t see how it is a protection at all. There are still plenty of people who use the guise of ‘godly’courtship in selfish, deceitful, and harmful ways. It grieves me to see tender-hearted, trusting young people manipulated in this way.
Woke up to so many great posts. Just wanted to say I admire the way so many of you write….Jimmy- it was so great how you described being an empiricist and your commitment to being humble and consistent….and Been There and Persona- great points about grace vs. law….it seems like we’ll always find some way to make a law out of a blessing given by His grace.
Elyse Fitzpatrick, who wrote “Give Them Grace” is the only other person that I’ve heard try to describe the tendency we have to wrap grace up into a legalistic package of rules.
BeenThere #56 — Re: interview on homeschooling. You might be thinking of Reb Bradley’s “Crisis in Homeschooling: Exposing Major Blind Spots of Homeschoolers,” in the Fall 2011 issue of Virginia Home Educator — beginning on page 8 here: http://www.heav.org/assets/files/tvhe/Virginia-home-educator-fall-2011.pdf. Josh Harris highlighted the article on his own blog on 11 September. See here — http://www.joshharris.com/2011/09/homeschool_blindspots.php.
Hi Patricia
I had a great relationship with my kids but I did follow the courtship rules and that caused huge problems in my family and for me personally.
I had a huge lack of faith regarding entrusting my children to God even in adulthood. But I was fooled into believing I did have faith. It was always a constant battle for me. I often wonder what would have happened if I had followed my Gut all these years. I hate myself that I did not.
I do not think it is because of a desire to control my kids, but you do have it right in that it was based in fear. I was afraid to screw up my kids. Everyone was actually very afraid. I wanted a guarantee they wouldn’t have a rough life like I did. I had a guarantee from CJ they did not have to rebel. I was an idiot to believe him.
We were even told Never to say “Let go and Let God”. That was NEVER to be the case with clc parenting. We were told, It was a “co-operative effort” and we should NEVER let go.
I wish these things you just put into categories could be fixed just as easily.
I came to the church ignorant of religion and family. I saw hundreds of people claiming this was the way to walk out christianity and I wanted to please God and do the best for my family. I wanted to believe. I had a total immoral life before I came to the Lord. I didnt want my kids to. I don’t think my intentions or desires were to control or to obssess over my kids. I just believed what I was told. I watched as many people agreed that certain practices were best and I trusted them. It sickens me what I believed and I still don’t understand why I did. I have more regrets as a Christian than I ever did before I was a christian. I actually feel hatred now.
Jim and sunned
For the record, I don’t believe anything. That’s kinda the point. I hold opinions with varying degrees of confidence based on evidence.
I think everyone is getting lost on the courting detail. My problem with courting is that I was told I had to do it. The entire sgm problem is when they outline a preference and make you do it. What is really scary about sgm is how they make you do it. It’s scary how successful they are at making people do something, while claiming they merely give suggestions.
“Been There” said,
Nickname said,
Yes! To both of these statements!
As I was trying to say earlier, a strong underlying premise of both I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Boy Meets Girl is that our hearts – our instincts, our first emotions, our gut-level reactions – are deceitful and therefore to be distrusted and discounted. When it comes to finding a spouse, it is vitally important that what we might instinctively feel about a person be made secondary to the qualities about them that we can (supposedly) discern rationally – qualities like the person’s “godliness” (which encompasses things such as the person’s commitment to the local church).
To help us override our deceitful hearts, Boy Meets Girl emphasizes seeking “wise counsel” from parents, pastors, and Christian friends. There’s an entire chapter about this – and it’s in this chapter where we can find Megan and Kerrin’s story, complete with excerpts from Megan’s journal, wherein she describes how a friend convinced her – by emphasizing K’s “godly character” – to take a second look at him and thus enter into a courtship with him.
I guess this is the chapter that’s going to be rewritten, to replace M&K’s story with another couple’s (presumably, one where they overrode their instincts and it still worked out).
As I’ve said, this is where I have a huge problem with the idea of re-releasing these books. It seems to me utterly dishonest to put this stuff out there again, just with different anecdotal “evidence” for how the “more godly” approach supposedly works better than going with one’s deceitful heart. Honesty would demand an acknowledgement of the fact that far from being better and more lasting, at least some of the relationships built upon community input have not survived.
Been There 57
I have observed that the SG churches that I have attended over the years have been a green house for those who seek to use context of church to acheive an agenda rather than become Christ-like. The patriarchal movement is strong in SG churches as well as homeschooling. When I interact with those involved with the patriarchal movement – the gospel of strong family, protect children, buy 20 acres and start a farm… homeschoolers voice the opposition of those evil public schools, risks for our children. I think many in these two movements find fertile ground in the shepherding movement that the SG franchise offers. There is a reminant that look to and seek to become Christ-like, but few. Look at CJ, rather than to suffer as Christ suffered and view it that way, he is pouting about abusive blogs and mean FB posts. Sad. Until SGM turns from it’s Shepherding past the folks in their franchised greenhouses will not be free to seek our Lord. Many are busy building and protecting their kingdom, rather than risking all for Christ’s Kingdom.
I threw out ALL of my SGM-written books about two months ago. I would have had a book burning but I don’t have a fireplace. The only ones that I kept were ones from true men of God, Jerry Bridges, John Piper.
I will NEVER read another SGM book as long as I live.
Jimmy said,
That’s another piece of this thing.
I’ve heard from SGMers who will initially say that they forged their own paths and did not feel a whole lot of pressure to conform to cultural expectations like homeschooling and courtship. But whenever I’ve dialogued with them some more, it usually becomes apparent that they were either already adhering to most of the SGM lifestyle choices…or they were the type of individuals who – for one reason or another, but usually having to do with their perceived “success” – are admired and respected by their SGM pastors and left alone.
The majority of SGMers absorb enough of their pastors’ expectations, along with the culture of demonstrating submission through emulating one’s authorities, that they will find themselves feeling some pull to go along with what everyone else is doing…even if this stuff is never directly instructed from the pulpit.
Awhile back, I was reading through the transcript of the talk that Greg S gave at CLC, about choosing how you’ll educate your children. I’ve interacted with Mr. S in recent times and actually think he’s one of the more open-minded leaders within SGM. He seems like a very nice guy. So this is NOT any sort of criticism of him on a personal level. I tend to think he didn’t even realize what he was doing.
But that talk was just an amazing example of how a pastor can – deliberately or not – lay out facts in such a way as to appear to be open-minded, when the reality is that at the end of his presentation, any good and obedient listener who wanted his pastor’s approval would totally understand that there really were only one, or at best two, viable options.
It was really uncanny. You can see it for yourself – here is the link to the first part of the transcript: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=1334
Again, this is not a criticism of Mr. S on any sort of personal level. I tend to think that most SGM pastors are so deeply into the SGM mindset and way of life that they present the “facts” as they sincerely believe them to be true. But nonetheless, they manage to manipulate a lot of their people into seeing ever-narrowing options, to the point where eventually, the only choice that could possibly be “godly” would be whatever the pastor himself chooses.
That’s how SGM has managed to “make” people do all this stuff…even as they present these things as mere options.
“Look at CJ, rather than to suffer as Christ suffered and view it that way, he is pouting about abusive blogs and mean FB posts. Sad.”
I sure wouldn’t characterize what is happening to Mahaney as anything like what happened to Christ’s sufferings. If anything what Mahaney is going through is the Lord’s discipline as Josh described what this release of Brent’s documents was.
Sadly IMO Mahaney is regarding as “lightly” and “weary” when being reproved. Rather than search his heart see his sin, Mahaney IMO is trying to find ways to justify and trivialize his sin.
Mike, I threw out our PDI-SGM books 14 yrs ago and have never read another one either.
The courting model existed long before Josh Harris surfaced at SGM. I’ve mentioned before that I worked as a church secretary in the early 90s. The senior pastor had a daughter who was probably about 10 then. He told me and others that in a perfect world, his daughter would marry at about age 17 to a man who was about 5 years older than her and was from a family that was well-established in the church. He would have finished college and be starting his career. She would go directly from her father’s household to her new husband’s household so there is no time that she would be “on her own”.
A few years later, that’s exactly what happened. Don’t think for a minute that the pastors’ kids’ marriages weren’t arranged. They were but in a sly way that left the kids thinking they actually had a hand in it. Josh simply codified what had been going on for years, but he managed to make a fortune off of it.
Argo
Read your posts. Don’t know who you are, but we could be boys. Would love to argue whatever with you sometime, that sounds like fun to me. I enjoyed how frank and confident and unphased your tone is.
And by the way, my real name is Dr. Jimmy
My SGM church doesn’t have a standard “courtship” or dating practice. I don’t remember the last time KDG or BMG were mentioned. I know that I personally had to overcome my own legalism regarding this issue because I had a tendency to judge others when my own heart wasn’t pure. I think many people do make poor choices in relating to the opposite sex, but as long as they aren’t defrauding each other AND (this is the big one) living faithfully for Jesus with a clear conscience, then I cannot judge them.
Jimmy #67 — One way of “control” or making you do something they wanted you to do was that weird praise/flattery thing they did when you did “what they wanted you to do.” We attended church on a Sunday after an e-team event that we were unable to participate in because of an illness in our extended family. It was sickening . . . each family was praised/flattered one by one because of their participation. It was at best weird, but truly manipulative of everyone who had or had not participated. You got the message; do what we say do or feel like a heel in the aftermath. We didn’t buy it. I sat there and thought that folks were definitely receiving their “reward” here. But this method worked like a charm for most.
In the parenting realm, marriage realm, and even with friendships, the message was “do it our way” — it will not only work, but you will get our praise along with it, and oh how people loved praise from the leadership! Eerie!
“Re-releasing Josh’s books cannot really be about anything other than financial gain.”
Very true. As many in that industry will tell you, you have to stay in play in the Christian publishing market. It was a hit the first time in that niche. Milking it, I suppose.
However, it is actually “mal-practice” to re-release this book for several reasons:
1. Josh is well aware of the horror stories that resulted from promoting this method in his own backyard. As a pastor who has promoted this method as more godly than the world’s method, he bears spiritual responsibility for advocating it in the first place since he cannot make a clear Biblical case for it. He did not learn his lesson. That makes him an opportunist.
2. He claims to be a pastor but cannot make a biblical case for “courtship”. How can he claim it is more “godly”? By what basis, biblically?
There is a simple way to deal with this. When the book is released make sure you all review it on Amazon and point out the problems with it and link to this blog and the stories of those for whom this “method” did not work well at all. You owe it to people who might buy the book.
Seems many here know scripture better than Josh does.
Thanks for your honesty, Jedi (post #65). I don’t know your situation, but hope that the hatred you feel is against the abuses that false churches set up that dishonor our Lord and Savior.
It is important to distinguish false churches from those that Christ actually is involved with. There is a huge difference between the two.
Matthew 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Imalone’s suggestion is GREAT.
“When the book is released make sure you all review it on Amazon and point out the problems with it and link to this blog and the stories of those for whom this “method” did not work well at all. You owe it to people who might buy the book.”
Free speech may not exist in SGM churches, but it’s a valued freedom in most of America.
“The courting model existed long before Josh Harris surfaced at SGM. I’ve mentioned before that I worked as a church secretary in the early 90s. The senior pastor had a daughter who was probably about 10 then. He told me and others that in a perfect world, his daughter would marry at about age 17 to a man who was about 5 years older than her and was from a family that was well-established in the church.”
Interesting story you shared.
As I have shared before, Larry Tomczak actually introduced to the movement the concept of “kissing dating goodbye” in 1978 in a teaching and his book titled “Straightforward.”
Sometimes I think that those in the courtship model like to arrange and get their children married early because with that strategy they are married before these young people have time to thinks things through. Some when they find themselves marry may divorce but I am sure most will stay married.
I’d like to know; which sin of CJ Mahaney’s is Particularly Egregious?
LOLOL Steve! So SGM parents are really into SHOTGUN weddings, huh? LOL I can believe it.
That’s why I think some of these young men who let the dad’s push them so much need bigger cajones.
Jedi,
You said “I had a total immoral life before I came to the Lord. I didnt want my kids to”
This was something I totally noticed at FFX. The people who were wild when younger were so much harder on their kids and more apt to follow the SGM discipline teachings than people like myself who grew up in Christian homes. I don’t think this is unique to SGM, I’ve noticed it in other churches too. That balance between legalism and grace is sooooo very hard to achieve. There’s something I really appreciate about my new church and pastor–they seem like they always “err on the side of grace”. If you think about it, a lot churches are teaching grace, and I feel FFX taught grace while I was there. But when conflict comes up (such as how to treat victims of sex abuse) FFX was erring on the side of legalism. I think maybe which side of the fence you jump off of–the legalistic side or the grace side–shows a lot about your heart’s condition.
I was prompted to post this this morning. This is not directly at anyone in particular.
From Faith’s Checkbook, by Charles Spurgeon. December 1st reading.
He who walks with integrity walks securely. Proverbs 10:9
“His walk may be slow, but it is sure. He that hastens to be rich shall not be innocent or sure; but steady perseverance in integrity, if it does not bring riches, will certainly bring peace. In doing that which is just and right, we are like one walking upon a rock, for we have confidence that every step we take is upon safe and solid ground. The man who has gained success through questionable transactions must always be afraid that a day of reckoning will come.
Let us stick to truth and righteousness. Never, on any account whatsoever, let us do that which our conscience cannot justify. If we keep in the Lord’s own way, and never sin against our conscience, our way is sure against all. We may be thought fools for being firm in our integrity; but in the place where judgment is infallible, we shall be approved.”
not “directed” at anyone in particular. Sorry.
It’s a case of not seeing the forest for the trees….the book focuses on a concrete method as if that can produce fruit of the Spirit, not on walking with Christ through every method, so that fruit grows in your life and feeds your world.
The people that are going to sin in a dating relationship are probably going to sin in a courtship relationship, too.
Methods don’t change hearts. Methods can be good vehicles for training and discipline, but in matters of the heart, it’s a God thing.
I can pretty well bet that no SGM church has a ‘written’ courtship code — but, oh, it’s pretty clear that’s the way to do it. Two Christian women talking: they find that one’s son and one’s daughter are pursuing the same degree at nearby colleges. One mom says, “We should introduce them” thinking they’d enjoy knowing another Christian with the same interest. The SGM mom answers, “Oh, no, we practice courtship in our church.” HUH? Now who said anything about love and marriage?
If they’re going to republish the book, perhaps it would be more honest to focus on following Christ in whatever kind of relationship category you’re in, whatever kind of school category, whatever kind of whatever. You know, like in Colossians, ‘Whatever you do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord…’
One of you writers out there could publish an op-ed book — “I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Here’s What Happened.” Ask those who came through this about their experiences — the good, the bad, the ugly, the ones on which the jury’s still out — pay them for their contributions or use of their stories. Now that would be an interesting read.
Scripture can stand on its own. Men’s opinions need some backup.
Kris said: The way “the world” goes about the spouse-finding process is wrong, wrong, wrong! Here is a far more righteous, spiritually superior way of doing things that safeguards young people from giving away their hearts and sinning against God.
I have noticed that SGMers take a lot of pride in how different they are from the world. In my neck of the woods, it comes across as statements like “The world just doesn’t understand _______ “(fill in the blank with whatever practice is being talked about, not true things of the Lord). It’s usually said with great pride-aren’t we special?
I have had a discussion with a pastor who said from the pulpit that the world doesn’t understand Christians giving to the church. I disagreed-because the world DOES give money to what is important to them, whether it be PETA, Planned Parenthood, political campaigns, etc. But he kept saying the world does NOT understand why we would give to a church. I tried to explain that if you frame the question-do you understand people giving to what is important to them, the world will say while the church is not important to us, yes, we understand giving to causes you are passionate about, so if you are passionate about the church then we understand you giving to a church.
But he kept saying I was wrong-they don’t understand giving to the church. I suppose that admitting they do understand and actually were the same as we were would make us less special…
I have also disagreed when I hear SGMers say things like “Only Christians can have good marriages”, “Dating trains you to leave relationships” and other broad statements. It’s like they can’t accept the fact that doing something any other way than the SGM way could possibly be successfull.
Quote: “The people that are going to sin in a dating relationship are probably going to sin in a courtship relationship, too. Methods don’t change hearts. Methods can be good vehicles for training and discipline, but in matters of the heart, it’s a God thing. ”
Profound common sense.
Concerning the rerelease of IKDG, I wonder if it Josh trying to provide some income in the event he may soon be unemployed…
@Argo #30 –
Dang, Argo! What kind of coffee were you drinking yesterday and where can I get some? :D Love the Pink Floyd reference.
What particular sin of CJ’s is most egregious?
How about teaching false doctrine in the form of rules for others, in order to control them, he had no intention of following himself as the cult leader.
We can start with blackmailing Larry to get rid of him.
CJ has a rap sheet a mile long when it comes to egregious sins. You have just been taught to look for adultery and embezzlement. Many have been deceived by his “humble” demeanor.
CJ is a Pharisee on steriods.
Fried Fish and Argo –
It pretty much boils down to trusting in man and man’s ways and NOT trusting in God, Jesus or the help of the Holy Spirit in one’s life or in others’ lives. It ends up being just another man-made religion with man-made rules and regulations with no real life of Christ applied. Might as well put up a sign – “THOSE DESIRING TO FOLLOW JESUS – NEED NOT APPLY HERE”
Looking for justice 82
CJ commits the same sins over and over thus making them easy to identify.
Simply put, he asks people to pay him for heaping heavy burdens on their backs.
In so doing, he qualifies as one of the religious leaders Jesus strongly condemned.
Steve240 72
By CJs “fruit” we know that he is not trying to emulate Jesus. His heart is hardened. But Jesus did too suffer under our Lord’s discipline, not for his sin, but ours (you know that) Point is that if we see someone humble themselves under the discipline of the Lord and not focus on own righteousness, that person is living, suffering as Christ did. CJ is not doing this. Sad because so many people follow him and he has influence over. False doctrine, methods, pharasee type laws fill the SGM churches so others seeking similar false gospels easily join and influence the church. Others trusting that the church is seeking God or, the cross… are then manipulated and swayed. Those not called to home school or bunker down on 20 acres to protect their kids from the world start thinking there is something wrong with them. Our eyes are taken off of Jesus and becoming more like Him, and we start to be swayed to become like eachother in these systems to keep from sin or protect family from sin.
Melinda @15 –
Here is the thing with the “many” systematic issues. When you have SO many of them and then you have much of what SGM teaches and writes preceded with “Gospel” or “Biblical” then you are leading people to a supposedly “right” way of doing things. Think of this type of leading in regards to new believers. It is like teaching “another gospel” altogether instead of the Good News of Jesus Christ.
I think the bottom line is this: God has given each and every one of us free will.
That includes our children.
SGM has been busy teaching a very controlling micromanaging parenting and flock-tending style.
SGM bigwigs, try to get this concept: if GOD has not seen fit to control the will of His children, who do you think you are?
I will neither break the will or spirit of my children.
I will dedicate myself to guide and mentor them and I will be there for them but they are every bit as human as me and they get to govern their lives and unfold as competent autonomous beings and freely choose to embrace and love God.
I could sit and type PAGES on how I feel about the “courtship crap.” Joshua Harris’ books and the whole “good christians should only court” have caused so much dysfunction and damage that it far outweighs ANY good it’s supposedly accomplished. I could give you HUNDREDS of examples (no exaggeration). Before my exposure to SGM I saw it among the Gothardites and the homeschoolers. I’ve been observing the crap for 30 years now. The opening pages in the first edition of “Boundaries in Dating” sums it up well:
When I hear the “guarding your heart” crap I think of a quote from C. S. Lewis:
AKS,
Good quote from the Boundary Guys. I like reading their stuff.
look, i have no place else to post this stuff so if you don’t care about my story then just ignore me. i am out of options and i at least want people to think before they write josh harris a pass during this “season.” even typing that word makes me want to hit people.
i met with josh and sent him a letter months before this members meeting i quote from below. he knew all about my claim when he stood up in front of the room and said this:
(the context is that he is trying to get people to understand how cj and others might feel by the release of Brent’s Docs)
Member’s Meeting Transcript, Wed Aug 17, 2011
“I just … I want you to imagine the impact it would have on you if personal letters and confessions that you shared in confidence were made public like this. And what just hit me in this is: I would never want to do that to you as a pastor…”
i emailed him after i read this and asked him, among other things i said, if he knew what the definition of disingenuous was?
Jimmy –
You’re right. It is hypocritical for Josh to say what he did in the meeting yet treat you the way he did. Did he ask you to forgive him for his treatment of you? FWIW – I don’t think the book should be re-released.
AKS –
What book is the Lewis quote from? I liked both quotes. I am going to purchase the Boundries book – looks good and I have young adults :)
“The entire sgm problem is when they outline a preference and make you do it. What is really scary about sgm is how they make you do it. It’s scary how successful they are at making people do something, while claiming they merely give suggestions.”
“How (SGM) make you do it” is quite scary. As has been said before, for the most part it isn’t blatant standing at the podium saying you must do this rather it is peer pressure and “group think” for the most part that produces this conformity and obedience. It is done with means that aren’t blatant or state. It is more behind the scenes using various methods including withdrawal of affection if one doesn’t conform.
Jimmy,
Perhaps this has already been looked into and addressed, but in case it hasn’t…you indicate there is a statute of limitations on your possible legal action and (from what I have read)that you have had no response from Josh and his attorneys and you believe that they are merely waiting things out. Have you contacted an attorney to file suit? If there is actionable offense, and you are still within the limitation, all you need to do is have an attorney (or yourself) file suit in court to make your case. Once the case is filed, the statute of limitations issue is null and void.
If you’ve got a case, sue ’em!
Just sayin!
@Bridget #96 – I lived through it. I know. I agree that the way the method was upheld as principle was wrong. I agree with you in that I don’t think their version of the gospel was the true Gospel.
Jimmy, is there anything that we can do to help you get justice from Joshua? If we all unified in some kind of action, do you think it would help?
martha 106
no. the statutes of limitation have run out, and explaining why i waited so long requires a working knowledge of the mental issues a high demand group leaves one with. so, im screwed. eventually his insurance company will tell me this. every lawyer i’ve talked to has said i had a strong case… 10 years ago.
sgm is a business, and the only way that business’s product will change is if people stop going or stop giving their money.
Right, I know that there’s no longer any legal recourse but as a Christian, Joshua is held to a higher standard than courts of law and insurance policies. I would like to help you but I’m not sure what to do and I would want your approval before acting and maybe others feel that way, also. Would it help if I wrote Joshua an email?
Jimmy, i realized you are probably tired of discussing this,but, if book is reissued, does the limitation reset?
I’m pretty late in the game here, but I read a book by Tommy Nelson and it was about dating as a single and a christian. This always stood out to me, he talked about when finding a mate you need to be attracted to them physically and be attracted to their character. I 100% agree with that. I always believe that it is important to be attracted to your spouse and i remember a covfel pastor saying the same thing.
I know someone was talking about eharmoney and how they base someone off your interest, and i think that is important too. I remember when Jenna Bush(former president bushes daughter) was on oprah and oprah had asked her what advice she would give people when marrying someone. She said to make sure you have common interest. She said how she and her husband love to hike and enjoy doing that together.
I’m just really sick of hearing about paying more attention to ones character than listening to your gut and what you were thinking.
I remember dating this one guy before I even was at a sgm church, and I was not attracted to him, but I thought it was the summer and I was young, not even 21 yet. I thought I’m bored and maybe just wanted a summer romance. Anyway, my mom kept on telling me maybe the more time I spent with him, I would become attracted to him, and I tried and it never worked. My parents never went to a sgm church. So after only a few weeks, I ended things with him. If I would have been in sgm I probably would have stayed with him because of his character and would not be happy.
107:”sgm is a business, and the only way that business’s product will change is if people stop going or stop giving their money.”
Jimmy…Amen, bro. This is the plain, pragmatic truth. Look at the way SGM markets itself and plants its churches in predominantly wealthy areas. There is huge money in the high-demand/Calvinista church business, and you can clearly see this, again, in how it markets itself…uses it’s own material, its own music, its own books, its own study guides. Not exclusively, but, much like a business, it tries to keep the dollars in-house as much as they possibly can. That’s a fact, and there’s a reason.
I’ve been thinking a lot about this, and while I’m still of the opinion that SGM is essentially a cult, albeit perhaps a “gentler version”, I’m thinking that this cultish approach to thought control is more the means to an end rather than the end itself. The end, unfortunately, is really just good old fashion power…that is, man’s primal “will to power” as John Immel has been known to quote, and really behind this is just your basic love of money: the “root of ALL evil”. I mean, think about it for a minute. Does it strike anyone else as odd and scary that practically everything SGM teaches, every doctrine, practice, means of governance, is designed to keep people committed mind, body and spirit to the SGM cause? The doctrine of courtship, church discipline, total depravity (as they preach it), tithing, commitment to the local (i.e. the SGM) church above all else, including new jobs that require moving or children staying local to go to college just so they can continue to attend, the emphasis on having five, six, seven children, the obvious nepotism (all the Mahaney sons are Pastors, Ken and Jared Mellinger, Mark and his son Altrogge, Vince Hinders and Dave Hinders at Fairfax and on and on), all of this, in some way or fashion is designed to produce an ever growing, and (here it comes) SELF PERPETUATING and utterly devoted membership.
Nepotism, huge numbers of children, children of SGM members almost exclusively marrying other SGM members, courtship overseen by caregroup leaders and pastors, local college, SGM-only Bible studies, mandatory care group attendance…it’s all a huge net designed to catch and to hold, while at the same time creating a wholly self-contained subculture which continues to feed and nourish the movement (NOT the GOSPEL) and ultimately, the leadership.
Now, after reading that, does anyone still not understand why I believe SGM is a cult…even though the cult practices are simply a means to power. A cult is a group that puts the preservation and perpetuation of itself ahead of Christ and His Gospel, and for all the talk SGM does of the gospel, it’s the gospel of SGM their doctrine’s teach. Now please–and I mean this sincerely–if I’m wrong, set me straight. I just can’t see them as a legitimate body of Christ. They are a cult, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. But, again, please prove me wrong if you can…no, no…you don’t understand, I was a member for over 15 years. I WANT to be wrong, believe me.
And going back to Jimmy’s 107: really, I agree. SGM cannot change because it’s not really a church. It’s a subculture; a movement, a mindset, and that mindset has been seared into their brains. It’s like asking GM or Ford to stop making cars! They simply cannot and will not change. SGM to them (many members and the leadership) is GOD. The ONLY way to change SGM, just like the only way to win a nuclear war (or tic-tac-toe) as the movie War Games proclaimed is “not to play”.
So, the membership must take their money and leave. They must realize that SGM is not a system that needs tweaking. Unfortunately, by putting themselves in the place of God, they create an environment that is God to many of the members. Leaving SGM, to many, means no longer being a Christian. And even if they understood that this is not the case, imagine the idolatry that SGM doctrine and practice has enabled? Imagine leaving ALL your friends, ALL your relationships, to tear your children away from all their friendships, and have to function outside; a nobody…a total stranger; to have to learn the love of God all over again, to relearn all you should have already known at your age. That’s a hard, hard thing for people to do. SGM’s self contained family structure and subculture has created an environment that makes it extremely difficult for people to leave without tearing apart practically ALL their relationships and even their very spiritual life. The sick thing? I believe that SGM does this on purpose. So, no, it’s not a cult in that it doesn’t keep people in with poison and guns like Bob Jones, but it does, again create a system that nevertheless imprisons it’s members behind the bars of ways of thinking about submission, family, marriage, local church membership, etc., etc. Heck, even sometimes, financially…I mean, imagine an SGM pastor, with only a PC certificate wanting to leave. How? He’s got five kids, no college degree(and if he has, he hasn’t used in fifteen years), and a wife who he married at 21 and who had her first child at 22! He can’t leave! Where is he supposed to go? What is he supposed to do? This is where a person must “leave everything and follow” Christ…the pastor, or other SGM leader or member has to ultimately believe that Christ will provide for him and his family. Christ can and will do this…much better to trust God than to continue in a movement that has hardened its heart. MUCH better. And God will provide. But again, believing is one thing, doing another. Just ask James.
Argo #111: :word :goodpost :word
I’ve been mulling, the last few days, these very things.
So what will AoR to do assuming they end up seeing the glaring fatal flaws – those things which set SGM as a non-Church according to the Word with their false gospel – assuming AoR actually sees and concludes thus, what will they to do? Will they condemn the whole?
Or will they stop short and choose to nit-pick and come up with specific myopic suggestions for course correction?
It seems to me that with the very huge number of testimonies via letters, calls, meetings, how can AoR conclude anything BUT SGM is fatally flawed?
Off topic but don’t know where else to share. Aor just wrote me they want a phone interview next week! I dunno what to say! Aaaah! You people put me up to this, lol! ;-) I hope they ask questions..
Remnant,
I just don’t know what in the world AoR will make of SGM or the testimonies. I truly believe that if they’d read the blogs…there is MUCH wisdom and clarity and information here…it would really help them. And bringing Brent in as an ever present, in-person, primary resource would be a very, very good idea. Unfortunately they are doing neither, so I’m not sure what they’ll determine…but I will tell you that I absolutely cannot wait to see what their final report says.
Two things are utterly clear: First, they are way over their heads. They are dealing with a leadership that thinks they are infallible and a spiritual and emotional fallout that has cut people down to their utter cores, emotionally wrecked many, torn apart families, caused some if not many to stumble in their faith or leave it altogether. They are in no way prepared for this. Second: If they are truly objective, and truly want to love and glorify Jesus Christ’s teachings and love they will, regardless of what they recommend, not sugar coat SGM and all of their very SERIOUS problems.
Brokenhearted 113
They will likely ask you about the things you liked about SGM as well as ways you were negatively affected so come prepared.
Be honest but, also come with realistic expectations. SGM will say what they will about listening to the suggestions of the AoR and posting their assessment. But the AoR only do what SGM asks them to do so it is a house of mirrors over there.
SGM has probably already decided about 99% of what they plan do with their organization. After all strategy is what CJ does best. Even as CJ was sharing his lame confession at CLC, he and Dave were already planning what CJ would be doing once he was back in the saddle. You could make the argument that CJ never fully dismounted from the saddle but that is another topic of discussion.
glad i am out # 109 – yes, you are exactly right. If Josh re-releases the book and if the new release still has jimmy’s story in it, the statute of limitation should begin again. In addition, if Josh re-releases the book with jimmy’s story AFTER jimmy has made it clear that he was harmed by it the first time, the financial damages could be even more significant. In other words, now you’re talking about punitives, not just compensatory damages. I’d argue defamation, violation of clergy-congregant privilege, and both negligent and intentional infliction of emotional distress.
Jimmy, my hope is certainly that you’re not in that new release but if you are, you might want to talk to an attorney. Quickly. And don’t get discouraged if they turn it over to their insurance company – that’s actually exactly what they should do and you should be pleased since the insurance company will often throw some money at it a lot more quickly than the church will.
I would strongly encourage everyone to have realistic (meaning very low) expectations for this whole outcome with AOR. I’m sure they are a fine organization and mean well, but you have to consider who it is that hires them. If they go hard on a church then what church or ministry is going to hire them after that? IMHO their true client is the church. At most you’ll get some recommendations around the edges as well as some admissions that some things could have been handled better. But in the end the answer will be to have everyone come back together in love and just hug it out.
My guess is too that SGM doesn’t really believe they did anything wrong. No doubt they believe that you all who are complaining have the problems you do because you weren’t submissive to authority and rebelled. In fact if they did anything wrong it was due to their zeal in not wanting to see you stay in your rebellion.
I remember what it was like coming out of a similar situation, and there is a desire for justice and for someone to acknowledge that you were wronged. That isn’t going to come from man. The only place that will be found is in God. It takes a period of years, but there comes a point when you no longer feel a need for any man to give you that kind of affirmation.
Wasn’t there another couple in BMG that Josh talked about and they got divorced? Or was M&K the only couple?
Argo at 111 :goodpost
As long as CJ, Dave, and their hand-picked Board hold the reins of power, SGM is not fixable. It may lose a few customers, but the company will continue though its brand is now tarnished and it will never be viewed as it once was by the wider Christian community.
Just Deb @119, it is my intent to help recalibrate outside thinkers to the loondoms of SGM. As an outsider, my gig ain’t up. My bottomline: loons, the lot of them at the top.
Amongst 30 students at the college, one researched old Baldy after a 19-slide power point and 45-minute presentation by me. That was Tuesday. Of course, unapologetically, this scribe believes that SGM is in the anti-intellectualist tradition in America (a long one). Tonight, Thurs, 4 reported back. One smelled the phoney-baloney pietism of Mahaney upfront and directly. I will reverify their insights next Tues.
The results are in. SGM can never be in this family’s tradition, not now, not ever.
Regards.
Like Brokenheart #113 –
Just a quick AoR update, thanks to being encouraged by Irv, I emailed AoR again when I didn’t hear any response regarding my Brent-esque email I sent.
Got a really nice email back acknowledging, apologising and saying she felt the email was detailed enough (LOL!!) to not require a phone interview but I could have one if I wanted.
Duh – sorry meant to say;
By “Brent-esque” – I meant, the email was very long and detailed!
Didn’t realise I could write so much and remember so much!
Just Deb #119 wrote —
I’d be very interested to hear more about your thoughts on this, because I’m not sure this is the case.
#117 Been There, You said “I remember what it was like coming out of a similar situation, and there is a desire for justice and for someone to acknowledge that you were wronged. That isn’t going to come from man. The only place that will be found is in God. It takes a period of years, but there comes a point when you no longer feel a need for any man to give you that kind of affirmation.”
Are you saying that after a period of years while you were looking for justice, that God gave you that affirmation? Do you mind sharing how that happened?
Just Deb: “As long as CJ, Dave, and their hand-picked Board hold the reins of power, SGM is not fixable. It may lose a few customers, but the company will continue though its brand is now tarnished and it will never be viewed as it once was by the wider Christian community.”
I agree with you, Just Deb. SGM is dug into the fabric of the greater US religious culture. It’s here to stay; but, your right, without its previously held position of being just another gold ol’ reformed church. My guess is that it’ll will gain a reputation something akin to Churches of Christ, where their will be a little asterisk next to it. It might be known as a cult, or a high pressure movement…but its leadership will have plenty of willing sheep, regardless of what is exposed. They movement will never be completely dissolved, but that just means that we all just need to not go away either. :D Just keep warning and warning and warning folks, and to be here to catch those that either jump ship or are forced to walk the plank.
Bridget,
The C.S. Lewis quote came from his book “The Four Loves.”
@jimmy
I asked if you still were a believer in Jesus Christ merely to gain some understanding in where you are at. You said you have opinions that you believe to varying degrees based on evidence. Did Clc prove to you that Jess is real or just another good guy teaching about life.
I remember you well from the Chris Glass days. Reading what you written concerns me for your stake in eternity. Lots of s**t happens to people here on earth. You went through stuff you shouldn’t have. Josh apologizing or paying you some amount of money will never set you free man. I am praying that you find the peace that only Jesus can give you.
God bless you brother.
Argo…I really agree with you on many points – especially in your last paragraph because I personally experienced this. I have recently left my local SGM church after a combination of my own personal experiences as well as the events going on with SGM at large. I struggled for MONTHS knowing that I should leave but being afraid of the unknown; of the thought of “starting over” after 15 years; of leaving many of my close relationships; the thought of much of what I believed that SGM was was being turned upside down as the curtain of OZ was being drawn back.
What I do disagree with you on, however, is that I do not believe that the pastors are designing a system to purposely contain/hold people within the churches on purpose. I believe that they truly believe that what they are teaching is the best and therefore if you want to be the best Christian you can be then you will follow all of their teachings, all of their instructions and follow all of the lifestyle “suggestions”. This, in turn, creates a culture that is VERY difficult to leave because all of your life is tied to it (friends, family relationships, areas of service) in addition to your foundational belief system. You can’t just leave part of it – or not accept part of it. It’s an all or nothing deal.
Lynn- there was another in one of the books…we talked about it here a while back.
Argo- Brent did talk with them at length and I had the impression that he felt there was nothing more to say, between the docs and the personal interview he said it all.
I would like to add to my former post. I don’t want to leave the impression that people still in an SGM church are a bunch of lemmings. There are MANY courageous people who love the Lord and serve Him with a true desire to see Jesus glorified. There are some who are really trying to perpetuate change from within. My comments were more directed to the system at large. The deep flaws, though do permeate throughout all of the churches whether they believe they are being afftected by all of this or not.
DPV,
I must remind you that calling people names is “sophmoric”.
:lol:
RE Lynn’s question in #118 –
In the 2003 version of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Sam Torode provides the foreward. He talks about how his wife Bethany had read the 1997 version, and how the book had set the parameters of their eventual relationship, turning him into an IKDG convert.
Sam and Bethany Torode went on to write a couple of books. The most famous was Open Embrace: A Protestant Couple Rethinks Contraception. There was also Aflame: Ancient Wisdom On Marriage.
Sam and Bethany, who have 4 chidren, eventually split and divorced in 2009. Bethany blogged about it, but those posts were subsequently removed. (I’d linked to them in another post but then those posts disappeared.) In a New York Times article, she said this, about where she’s at in her spiritual journey now:
I’m thinking the new version of I Kissed Dating Goodbye will have a foreward by someone other than Sam Torode.
@dawn
Your thoughts are my thoughts as well. Good post.
If you are going to teach as a pastor anywhere I would hope you believe in what you are teaching out of the bible. No pastor on earth will get everything right. Christians have disagreed ever since Jesus took the cloud up outa here. Hence the many denominations and nondenominations.
I personally think we(Christians) could do alot more for eternity if we just lived our lives loving Jesus and not worrying about or conforming to other Christians personal beliefs. I go to church somewhat regularly and agree with some message points and scratch my head on other points. Doesn’t affect my justification one bit.
Christians, read your bibles love Jesus and don’t conform to works based religion.
Find true freedom in Jesus by obeying Him and proclaiming Him as Savior to our broken and dying world.
Question (that relates to Josh, but is also broader):
What sins and/or mistakes are excusable for a pastor to make? Which ones require removal/resignation? What is an accurate definition of ‘abuse’ of pastoral authority? I’m asking these things because sometimes it seems like on the comments on this blog that a wide range of things are categorized as abuse, and also because I wonder what people believe is excusable for a pastor (everyones a sinner). I have some other thoughts but I’ll save them for interacting later…
Charlotteans and those nearby – some of us are getting together again to see how we can help folks struggling with the SGM situation. We’ll meet next Friday, December 9 at 7 p.m. in Davidson. E-mail me at resipsa8@gmail.com for directions and to find out my super secret identity. (Not trying to be all clandestine with the location but it’s someone’s home so I don’t think they’d appreciate me publishing their address.) Thanks!
I was thinking some more about the edits Josh Harris is purportedly making to Boy Meets Girl – the ones where he removes M&K’s story and replaces it with the story of another couple.
On the one hand, we are supposed to believe that just because Josh’s example couple’s marriage didn’t work out, that doesn’t nullify the points Josh was trying to make in Boy Meets Girl. But on the other hand, it’s obvious that Josh himself must believe that M&K’s failing relationship does not reflect well on BMG, or else there would be no need to replace it with another couple’s story.
It seems to me that if it’s necessary to edit a book like that before a new version can be released, then there must have been something really faulty with the earlier version.
So my question is, are there plans to edit the book further, to add paragraphs or chapters acknowledging the potential problems with courtship? Will there be paragraphs or chapters added that discuss just how and why the book needed to be edited?
Doesn’t integrity demand this?
exbritpat: “What sins and/or mistakes are excusable for a pastor to make? Which ones require removal/resignation? What is an accurate definition of ‘abuse’ of pastoral authority?”
One of the peculiarities of SGM is that CJ’s answer to those questions is the only one that matters. And based on SGM’s history of “de-giftings”, CJ’s answers would be inconsistent depending on his personal relationship with the individual pastor and his perception of the pastor’s view of him.
Regarding Jimmy and Josh Harris….
Josh, wouldn’t this be a great time to DO HARD THINGS?
Josh, wouldn’t this be a great time to model conflict resolution and “reform” for SGM?
Josh, what would CJ do to Jimmy?
Josh, please remember that there are lots of CLC folks looking at you to do the right thing.
Larry Tomczak released a statement today discussing his departure from PDI in 1998. Here is a link.
THE TOMCZAK DEPARTURE FROM
S.G.M. — WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?
“In the 2003 version of I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Sam Torode provides the foreward”
After IKDG but before BMG, Elisabeth Elliot wrote Passion and Purity, chronicling her 5 year courtship/engagement to husband Jim. Josh Harris wrote the foreward. There seems to be a long history of reciprocal kudos-swapping within the Christian homeschool/courtship book crowd.
Haha…that’s an understatement. :wink:
jim and anyone else that cares
i am not a “victim” of anything or anyone. there are many with deeper wounds. i am a guy that someone did something greasy (and illegal) to and made tons and tons of money off it, so i want that someone to own it. thats it. this is what it looks like when someone asserts self-interest in a conflict. and yeah, im angry at losing 20 of my 30 years so far. if i wasn’t, then you should worry about me.
i do not expect an apology and money to set me “free.” im not 5. and what does free even mean? free from what? i am free. for the first time in my life i exercise complete personal self-determination. with all due respect, i would argue that most here are not free.
all i can say is to reiterate that i don’t believe anything. i hold opinions with varying degrees of confidence based on evidence. the degree of confidence dictates my actions. i am not a “believing” type of person. why would anyone want to believe anything? that is beyond me. science thought nothing with mass could travel faster than the speed of light. neutrinos have mass and may travel at a superluminal velocity. that hard observation, if it proves to be reproducible and accurate, will change EVERYTHING. a “believer” would change before the observation was made. why would anyone want to be like that? you become a mark for charlatans. and you know whats funny about psychology and sociology? they teach you that while an individual might hate to be a charlatan, group think and social norms and conformity can cause a system made up of well meaning people to take on completely corrupt traits, if power is not checked. a “believer” makes that process all the more easy.
empiricism with polite skepticism is the most responsible way to live that i have encountered. and, empiricism is teachable and organic, so if god exists i would love a tactile interaction. or, if a better -sim exists, empiricism should lead me to it.
The “courtship movement” is in a pickle.
Throughout the blogosphere “courtship victims” are blogging about the fallout in great numbers.
A lot is resting on Josh’s “edits.”
One ironic point about the publisher re releasing these books is that both Josh Harris’s original book on “kissing dating goodbye” and subsequent book “Boy Meets Girl” both can be purchased online for $1 plus postage. One site is abebooks dot com.
These used booksellers are basically giving you the book and just wanting postage paid. There seem to be quite a number of sellers with these books taking up space in their warehouses. With this being the case why would a publisher even want to re release a book with so many existing used copies for sale?
Thus I would wonder just how much demand there would be for this re released book(s) unless the book(s) were truly revised. It is kind of like why build new houses (unless they have something special to offer) when there are all these previously owned houses out there for sale. It isn’t like there is a dearth of either books around like some books.
Don’t mean to hijack the conversation, but. Well. I have to. This is important:
http://larrytomczak.com/Docs/departure_sgm.pdf
Larry Speaks.
http://larrytomczak.com/Docs/departure_sgm.pdf
“exbritpat: ‘What sins and/or mistakes are excusable for a pastor to make? Which ones require removal/resignation? What is an accurate definition of ‘abuse’ of pastoral authority?’
One of the peculiarities of SGM is that CJ’s answer to those questions is the only one that matters. And based on SGM’s history of “de-giftings”, CJ’s answers would be inconsistent depending on his personal relationship with the individual pastor and his perception of the pastor’s view of him.”
I would add it depends on how loyal this pastor is to the SGM “company line” but then it is CJ Mahaney that dictates this “company line” so they are basically one and the same. Some even call Mahaney SGM’s pope. Being that most leaders in SGM seem to fear Mahaney and to speak against him the label as “pope” seems appropriate.
I remember back in the day when “only Group activities” was promoted between males/females (late 80’s/early 90’s). This was before IKDGB was the holy book on how to date. The seeds of the whole courting systems goes deep into SGM’s history and DNA. Especially since the prevailing attitude is that if a male/female who are not married are alone, they must be getting naked and being “sinful”.
That group are now the parents of the second generation of SGM youth (or they figured out the dark underbelly of SGM and left long ago) and are pushing it on that generation. Along with the newbies picked up along the way, the ones that bought into IKDGB hook, line and sinker, they are now teaching their kids that if they are alone with a member of the opposite sex, they are going to get naked. Add that with SGM’s and Ceej’s locker room sex stories about his wife and you have got a sexually depraved culture that thinks that to be alone with a member of the opposite sex means you will have sex.
Instead of teaching their kids to look at sex in a good light, they have been trained to look at sex as something dark, dirty and sinful. That they can’t control themselves if they are alone with a member of the opposite sex.
The kids now view sex in that light. It makes you wonder how the females feel about sex on that first night – they have been told that they can’t control their sexual impulses and that being alone with a man means they will have sex. It must be really confusing for them. Add that in with the men who are told that they should be getting laid every 48 hours after they are married, the men now expect it all the time. They expect it the night before their wife is going in for hip surgery. Don’t forget about the whole patriarchal system where the men rule with an iron fist and not only do you have a recipe for sexual disfunction in marriage but a marriage disaster.
But, the book isn’t the whole issue – it just quantified the system into an easy to read guide on how to court. It gets promoted from the top down as a “suggestion” – those of us who have seen how things really work in SGM know what a “suggestion” means. Don’t forget to add in the peer pressure to follow the “suggestions” and you now have a new sgm regulation.
The re-release is about the money. Josh “The Boy Wonder” Harris isn’t going to complain one bit when the royalty checks are direct deposited into his bank account. Follow the money trail. This stuff is big bucks from someone who never went to college. Note – I am not saying that not attending college disqualifies you from being a Pastor. Generally, those who went to college make more money than those who didn’t. For these guys who don’t have a college degree, it’s big money.
One last though on Mr. Harris and his standing up to CJ. All he is doing is standing up to a bully. Good for him! Bullies should be stood up to! If CLC leaves, Josh is not going to abandon his teaching of his upbringing – it will still be there. I think I read a verse in the Bible about that somewhere ;) It may look kinder and gentler, but it will be the same system.
“To be faithful to criteria for Biblical leadership; to steer clear of the sin of favoritism and partiality; and to be consistent with what was expected of former SGM leaders, I believe senior leaders should step down for a season to be retooled for ministry according to I Pet. 5 and I Tim. 3 standards.”
Amen amen amen!
Thank you, Mr Tomczak, for sharing your thoughts publicly. In my gut (Holy Spirit?), I just felt like the “reconciliation” show this summer was phony baloney, but had no way to know for sure.
Now, I hope people will stop making Brent out to be a madman. I think AoR is realizing that, but as usual, nobody really knows what goes on behind closed doors…..ho hum….
Leo said:
“I remember back in the day when “only Group activities” was promoted between males/females (late 80′s/early 90′s). This was before IKDGB was the holy book on how to date. The seeds of the whole courting systems goes deep into SGM’s history and DNA. Especially since the prevailing attitude is that if a male/female who are not married are alone, they must be getting naked and being ‘sinful’. ”
That approach is what Larry Tomczak wrote about in his book in 1978. Sadly it caused a lot of problems that CLC never admitted. From what I saw it didn’t teach single men and women how to relate properly but taught them to be AFRAID of each other.