Some Musings On The Re-Release Of “Boy Meets Girl,” Edits, And True Change
November 30, 2011 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Some months back, Joshua Harris posted on his blog about the re-release of Boy Meets Girl, his book about courtship. Although originally scheduled for re-release in early in 2012, it looks like the title does not appear in publisher WaterBrook Multnomah’s Spring 2012 Catalog.
When the discussion in yesterday’s comments meandered onto the topics of courtship and Boy Meets Girl, I mentioned that I was curious about just how the new edition would differ from the original. At least one of the stories Josh used in the 2005 version (as anecdotal evidence for a key tenet of courtship – the idea that “godly character” and feedback from one’s friends and family about a potential spouse are far more important considerations than one’s initial gut-level attraction to the person) will need to be removed, as the couple in question (whose real first names were used in the book) are now in the process of divorcing.
This morning I received an email from a Sovereign Grace Ministries pastor who shared with me that yes, indeed, to the best of his knowledge, this particular story will not appear in the re-release of Boy Meets Girl. Josh Harris is editing it out, apparently replacing it with another couple’s story that (thus far) has worked out better.
For obvious reasons, this change is a good thing, of course.
BUT, as with just about every twisted or harmful teaching SGM has backed away from in recent times, a simple edit job is really not enough.
While it’s true that – as Josh Harris purportedly said in response to people who asked him about whether or not he was going to change the new editions of his books to reflect the relationship failures – Boy Meets Girl never outright claimed that courtship was a formula for divorce-proof marriages, there is still throughout the entire book the underlying belief that courtship as Harris describes it is a far superior, more godly way to find a spouse. And, because one of the major assumptions of courtship is that feelings and basic romantic attraction are not important and, in fact, are frequently just sin-tainted distractions, it seems like honesty would demand that Harris explain the reasons for the various edits he felt compelled to make.
Like, if Josh and his coworkers at CLC have noticed that many of the couples who married after subscribing to the principles of courtship as outlined in Boy Meets Girl ended up struggling, he owes it to his book-buying fans to own up to how his Bill Gothardesque ideas might have compounded those struggles. For instance, if “godly character” (which in the book includes the person’s commitment to the “local church” and how the person is perceived by one’s parents and friends from the “local church”) is the main consideration in the spouse-finding process, what happens when, after marriage, the husband begins to question his particular “local church,” to the point where his father-in-law now no longer views him as having much “godly character”? How would such a shift affect the way the wife feels about her husband? If their whole relationship was built upon the foundation of their shared commitment to their “local church” and her parents’ and friends’ approval, what happens when those elements are removed?
I guess the bottom line is, editing out a divorcing couple’s story is just not enough. It’s not enough to cut and then replace the stories that would not show courtship in a positive light.
Instead, with his books, Josh Harris needs to do the same things he seems to be asking the other leaders in his family of churches to do. He needs to pursue complete honesty and openness about the pitfalls of courtship…the problems he has witnessed…the legalism that can easily develop…the silliness of working so hard to deny one’s natural feelings while elevating a subjectively defined standard like what others think of a potential spouse’s “godly character.”
Awhile back, a reader asked me when we – the other commenters and I – would ever be “happy” with SGM. Here was my response:
I will be “happy” when SGM finally acknowledges all the many truths of its past that they have tried to bury. I will be “happy” when SGM actively and specifically repents of the multitude of constantly-morphing extra-biblical teachings over the decades, from legalistic approaches to courtship and homeschooling and “women should NEVER work outside the home,” to “glue-stick spanking” and “having a junk drawer shows a lack of integrity” and…well, you get the idea. Basically, everything that SGM has attempted to slyly “forget” about and pretend never happened needs to be expressly addressed and actively taught against, if SGM has truly moved away from the faulty teachings.
In my mind, the same holds true for any re-release of Joshua Harris’ books. He is well aware of the problems his books have caused. Taking out a story here or there is not enough. I hope the new version of Boy Meets Girl contains entire chapters on courtship’s pitfalls, and the dangers present in ignoring our God-given emotions and putting so much emphasis on what those around us think…especially in a world where “constant change is here to stay.”
EDITED TO ADD: The following message appeared on Joshua Harris’ Facebook page on December 3, 2011:
In June I announced that my publisher was releasing a new version of Boy Meets Girl. But since then I asked my publisher to postpone this re-release because I wanted to make sure I had the time to process the critique and concerns many people have shared with me about Boy Meets Girl and I Kissed Dating Goodbye (i.e., that they encourage a legalistic approach to relationships). I want to make sure I’ve carefully considered that critique and evaluated the book in light of new lessons God is teaching me and my local church (for more on that please see this webpage). If there are significant edits or changes that need to be made I want to make sure and clearly explain those to readers.
But right now our church is facing a very unique season and I just don’t have the time to give the attention and focus to any writing project. My publisher was very gracious and agreed to indefinitely postpone any new edition.
For more on what I’ve been learning since I wrote both these books, see this post that features several messages I’ve given in the past few years.
Kris says: I’m starting to have more hope that Josh Harris is one of the SGM leaders who actually understands that honesty and openness, along with full disclosure, are total necessities these days.
Kris
Another good post. It sad that Josh Harris in his “kissing dating goodbye” identified all these problems he sees with dating while not admitting any of the problems KDG has caused over the years. Though Josh Harris is relatively young, CLC has been teaching various forms of KDG for over 30 years. Thus he should have been aware of its problems. Its not like it is unusual for couples that marry under their KDG/Courtship system rarely get divorced.
If nothing else, Josh Harris should ask some serious questions like why did these “model” couples whose stories he shared in his book get divorced. Was there something about “courtship” that either ill prepared the couple for marriage or made them a bad match to begin with and thus divorcing?
It would be good if sometime Josh Harris would admit the problems that KDG/courtship have caused.
Here’s the thing though – people use even the holiest and good of books, the Bible to distort, misapply it to their lives, etc. But that’s not the fault of the author. Should God have to apologize because some people are using His words to the extreme?
There’s some amazing marriages that courtship has produced. There are some marriages that haven’t worked out. Welcome to the fallen world. He shouldn’t have to apologize for some lemmings taking it to the nth degree. Just like anything open to human interpretation, some people take it the wrong way or to the extreme. That’s not the author’s fault or responsibility. And for the record, Josh did address how CLC made certain choices into principles. Will that step not be recognized? Let’s give some grace for steps in the right direction and offer prayers for the rest to be restored in God’s good time.
Melinda-
Josh’s step is the smallest of incy wincy baby steps for a man that has overseen a church that has required absolute submission of it’s memebers and has taught specific confession of sin to all hrmed, or else be excommunicated or disciplined.
When will he practice what he preached with the same conviction that he pursued others that he pastored? He can either prctice what he preaches or admit that what he preached was wrong and give specific reasons why it was wrong. Until he does that in a very public matter, he should not be trusted.
And for the record, it is not because IKDG/BMG is misapplied that people have issues, it’s because it is lousy advice and does more harm than good for the average person. Calling it a mere misapplication of his teaching is not an accurate assesment of how this teaching has been ruhtlessly enforced by SGM and CLC.
Melinda
I agree and disagree with you on the misapplication. How would you feel if a company kept having a number of people get their hands injured with a certain machine and said it must be careless employees. Would it be right to blame it all on careless employees? Maybe the machine wasn’t safe.
Thus if IKDG and courtship keeps getting missapplied shouldn’t the equivalent of the machine (the book) be at least partially blamed? The especially true when IKDG/coursthip is being presented a a far superior system.
Melinda
I agree that some people may distort and misapply certain teachings or what they may read in books etc. I would not say this is what is happening here though. This is more than just misapplying teachings from a book.
A generation of people and their families were taught to elevate a certain practice (courtship) and it became an integral part of an entire culture/lifestyle. It was supported by constant teachings with specific mandated applications. There were negative consequences if these teachings were not lived out the way they “should” be. There was shunning and people were excluded if they did not adhere to the way things were taught.
When someone follows the teachings of their pastors and caregroup leaders and friends within a culture, you call them “lemmings”?.
When pastors take a certain practice and elevate it to a principle of scripture that is to be lived out, that is called legalism. It is serious sin. It damages many people,and their relationships, and it distorts the character of God. You want to give grace to those who are irresponsible and damaging, and condem the lemmings?
Melinda asked,
Uh…I’d say comparing Josh Harris to God is not exactly appropriate? :D I mean, really?
Of course we would hold human authors to a different standard than the Lord.
It never ceases to amaze that people insist on mollycoddling people who should be seasoned enough to take a bit of heat while these same people unleash draconian measures against the slightest infraction coming from innocent children that should, to a degree, be mollycoddled.
A few points of clarification:
1. I’m not comparing Josh to God. I’m saying that even a perfect book is used to hurt people.
2. I used the word lemmings in the same way I would say blind followers, bandwagon jumpers, etc. I was there – I lived what you’re describing. I’m not condemning, but I am saying that individuals have personal responsibility to listen to God and follow His will in their lives. Eve didn’t get a pass because the snake told her to do it.
3. I disagree with you Musicaman. I don’t think many of us can truly understand what a huge step it was for Josh to coordinate the meetings at his house and hear from the hurting. Do you know how many stories were told? Do you get that he was a product of this culture and has had to see all of this, change midstream, build consensus, go against his mentor and take a lot of heat from both sides for all this? His leadership in this way is absolutely unprecedented within SGM. Everyone who dared to disagree before was cut out. Did he do it perfectly, nope. But I believe, because I’ve specifically conversed with him, that he’s genuinely trying. People don’t recover from high demand groups overnight. Why does anyone here expect that of leaders within SGM?
4. I’m squarely in the camp of wanting reform to SGM. I’m not the enemy here.
:new
When I first began attending a SGM church there were a lot of things I felt completely out of the loop on, hence courtship. :scratch I dated before and just seemed like there were all these rules and “ways to court.” The first time I read BMG there was a sense of doubt that *every* relationship would/”should” work this way. :huh So for the first few months it was straining on every friendship that I would come into contact with the opposite sex :bang :beat :trainwreck (btw thanks for whoever added the emoticons). A few years have passed and I have learned a lot about my own personal view on courtship and how “perfect” the idea seemed when you read it, when in actuality it’s not true. Friendships, romantic or casual, are not always easy, if they are then there’s something wrong. I have learned to trust God in what He has for my future wife and praying through everything recent in my life that He would guide me and teach me to be a better man. Though I feel as though the conceptual idea of the book is “good,” the reality is, we’re fallen. Sinful boy meets Sinful girl would be a better title, if I may say so.
I think I am going on a blog reading vacation until this subject has passed. The SGM courtship concept has damaged myself and friends of mine to much to be able to rationally talk about it……….
Melinda
Unprecedented baby steps in the right direction, in light of the scores harmed by the system, should be given standing ovations? Especially when these baby steps are recent and prompted by many who have been shunned for years? Seems like a pretty low bar for praise.
@Jimmy – I’m not standing in an ovation. I’m saying that I saw that moment as a change in the right direction. For someone who is doing that from within the group, after being raised in the same environment that we grew up in, I think that’s a good thing.
Melinda
I have no hate for your optimism when talking to me, one of the lemmings, so long as when you talk to josh you’re telling him he was part of an oligarchy and his actions so far have been meager.
I guess my thing is, sure, people misapply the Bible. But when that happens, because it’s the Bible, we know that the problem always lies with the reader and not the author.
We cannot say that when the book has a human author. You know?
So when Josh Harris expressed regret for the way that his books’ ideas were misapplied, that wasn’t actually an apology…unless he was apologizing for the mistakes his readers made.
And now to think that this book is going to be re-released…well…I’m thinking that a whole lot of new chapters need to be added, explaining the many pitfalls and what the reader ought NOT to “misapply.” Otherwise, those same teachings are going to go on to ensnare a whole new generation of young people.
I’ll try to articulate a few more thoughts. I think there are systemic problems with SGM in regards to a culture of legalism and un-wise/unBiblical polity structures. I believe the legalism applied to courtship is a symptom of the larger problem, not the problem itself. It’s a small distinction, but I think important.
@Jimmy, I gave him some very candid feedback. I encouraged him to do more. I continue to pray. I believe that God is at work. Sure, I want it faster and completely to my liking, but since beating legalism into my head wasn’t my favorite thing, I won’t be beating condemnation into his either.
AAMN,
Hello, and welcome. Thanks for the comment.
Even though our kids were really little at the time and years away from thinking about the opposite sex, I was bothered at our SGM church by the way the young people (older teens and young adults) were a study in awkwardness. It was like every guy-gal interaction or casual conversation was doomed to quickly become this big deal. You could see the kids watching one another, too…looking for signs of who might like whom. I could imagine it’d be easier for males and females to just stay completely away from each other – which seemed to be what happened a lot of the time. Which just added to the overwrought atmosphere. There were 20-year-olds who, when it came to their peers, seemed to have the social maturity of junior highers.
I couldn’t imagine our kids growing up in the midst of that. It was one of the reasons I kept thinking something was wrong with our church, something mysterious that no one else seemed to have noticed or talked about. Why couldn’t these young men and young women just behave naturally with one another?
I think the answer comes from decades of teachings that wormed their way through the entire SGM organization. Harris’ Boy Meets Girl and IKDG were a piece of it. So was Carolyn Mahaney’s “You must always behave like you’re talking with some other woman’s husband” spiel.
IKDG placed a lot of emphasis on not just physical purity (which is good and biblical), but also the much more vague and difficult-to-define concept of not giving away pieces of one’s heart to someone other than one’s ultimate spouse. There was this idea that “real Christians” would “guard their hearts” so as to never feel anything romantic toward anyone who didn’t end up becoming their husband or wife.
I think that until these larger ideas – like the false concept that “giving away pieces of your heart” makes you somehow less “whole” for your spouse and is therefore a sin – are acknowledged as faulty, a little bit of back-pedaling (expressing regret that readers “misapplied” the books) is not going to do much to fix things.
I’m wondering if Josh is thinking perhaps the SGM/CJ issue is more pressing than the IKDG book issue? Kris mentioned that he did remove some offending parts of the book. It seems like some here are expecting 100% perfection from this man when he is making strides in the positive direction in so many ways. There are a LOT of fires to put out.
I think it is a bogus criticism to say that people ‘misapplied’ Josh’s advice from his book. That argument has been used by other pastors in SGM, for other formulaic teachings, too. But, I’m afraid that argument is just a convenient way to dodge culpability for error.
A book like IKDG is used as a self-help tool by vulnerable people facing one of the life’s most important decisions. If a manufactured tool were found to be dangerous in any way, it would be instantly recalled and posters would be plastered on walls in stores to warn people against buying it.
Likewise, I think Josh should recall any of his books that have brought unrealistic expectations or produced serious pitfalls to even a small percentage of his readers. At the very least he should halt production. That would be the responsible thing to do. Changing a few stories doesn’t do enough to ameliorate the problem.
jewel
Josh should remove the book from sales completely and take the proceeds from that book and divide it between all those who have come forward to share horror stories of what happend to them.
Making strides in a positive direction does not mean you are no longer responsible for damages done to others. The “mistakes” he has admitted to that harmed his brothers and sisters could be the first fires he attends to. I don’t know why you say some are expecting 100% perfection. Perfection is not even an issue.
You say hes made strides in a positive direction but nothing has been established, no changes have been made. The house meetings, the open forums, all those things he has been praised for doing, are no longer allowed. It may be that constant change is still here to stay.
Why is he re -releasing this book in the first place? That should be a clue.
Jedi,
In post 20 you said:
“The house meetings, the open forums, all those things he has been praised for doing, are no longer allowed.”
No longer allowed by whom?
Chuck 2.0
One of the main issues I see with the “courtship” model is, again, a control issue. It seems that people think that if they can control the whole relationship process between x and y, then all will turn out rosy. What I see happen, though, is x and y come to depend on their parents, in some cases one set of parents, as the “final word.” Then comes marriage day – and the day after and so forth and so on, and many times these couples were not encouraged to go to the Word and their heavenly Father in prayer, apart and together, and learn to interact as two human beings with a heavenly Father that can speak to both of them separately as well as together. The courtship model, carried to the nth, is just another instance of someone standing “in the stead of God” on your behalf. Parents who tend to be legalistic anyway can easily fall into “over controlling” the relationship. It’s as if they are saying God can ONLY work and speak through us into your lives.
I have seen, first hand, parents strongly encourage young men that if they want to court their daughter, then they must basically be discipled by the girl’s father (especially if the young man’s parents don’t seem to be “up to par” as far as the girl’s parents think). It is all very controlling and, in some cases, almost choosing for your child. And, of course, if the dude hits it off with Dad, then it must be a match made in heaven – right? And, if the young man doesn’t hit it off with Dad so much – it must not be the right guy? It can all be so controlling with seemingly little room for God to be at work doing what He wills – well not really, but you know what I mean :wink:
Please don’t think that I am against moms and dads having input and children desiring wisdom, prayer, and some questions from their parents, but there needs to be some faith in God mixed in with all of this and not just systematic processes – eek.
And what if x doesn’t have Christian parents? Then y’s parents might feel they “really” need to take matters into their own hands IF they even let their y date x with the heathen parents. X might not be a “good enough” Christian for their y – right? I’ve seen it all under the guise of being “godly and wise parents.”
If there are too many fires to put out, then Josh could tell his publisher to put the whole thing on hold…which actually MAY (here’s hoping) be what happened.
Imalone –
That was my question on the previous thread.
“Josh may well be in this category after hearing Jimmy’s story and knowing the problems his book has caused. Why republish the book? Does the good fruit outweigh the bad, or is it a desire for income? Think about it Josh.”
Persona (#19) and Bridget (#23) –
Those comments reflect my thoughts exactly.
Re-releasing Josh’s books cannot really be about anything other than financial gain.
I’m guessing it was the publisher’s idea. I can’t imagine any thinking person in Josh’s position actually initiating putting those books back out there at a time like this.
I wonder, how much input does an author have, when his publisher decides to re-release new editions of his books? It seemed, from Josh’s June blog post asking for feedback about cover choices, that he must be at least somewhat involved in the process.
Here is my perspective on IKDG…
First of all, when it came out, i was in the singles “scene” at Covenant Fellowship Church… I do not remember if it was required reading, as so many books are, but everyone was reading it – it definitely caught on and became one of those things, that, although not taught from the pulpit, was expected to be followed – as so many other cultural unspoken “teachings” in SGM…
The legalism existed before the book came out – i was derided for talking to “sisters” w/o brothers present, corrected for driving a “sister” to a care group… Told by a pastor that the woman i wanted to marry, and did marry, that he “could not recommend me to her” for the way i was “courting her” and would tell her so – a threat that i challenged him on, and he ultimately repented…
But when IKDG came out, i noticed that all “courting couples” broke off their relationships…. waited six months or so, then got back together and got married… I swear, there were several couples who did this – it seemed to be expected, not so much by pastors, as far as i knew, but by peers… The same peers who corrected me anytime i sat on a blanket at a frisbee game and spoke with a “sister” instead of playing frisbee…
One of the most respected men in our church – i will say to this day, he is a major Prophet of God, if there ever was one… and i respect him greatly!! and SGM has recognized him for his gifts outside of the local church ( a major guy in SGM,i guess i am saying)… Met and married his wife w/in 4 weeks time….
This marriage occurred years before the whole courtship thing… They are happily and successfully married to this day – so do not tell me there is only one way!!!
I keep hearing people prais Joshua for having the first meetings in his own home where people could come and share their stories. This is one of the “huge” strides he’s made. But this is not first time this has ever happened in clc. When josh first came to clc, he had some old timers over to his house to ask questions.
He is not having these in home meetings anymore, they were highly discouraged from SGM. And the “Open Mic” family meetings that were a big hit with most people(but SGM despised)are no longer “open Mic” meetings. We had 3 meetings where the members could ask any question and the pastors would try to answer. I believe they stopped the open mic because they said it was not as productive as they would like. I actually think it is because too much information was being brought out into the light and they would rather keep it all as low profile as possible. One on one meetings and small groups.
Let’s face it; books on subjects like “courtship” simply do not need to be written, period. They just don’t.
I respect Josh an awful lot, but I’ve found all his books on dating and courtship to be, frankly, a ridiculous subliminal appeal to a time of Puritanical utopia. Unfortunately, here’s the rub: it never existed! Along with courtship, I seem to recall that burning women at the stake was also quite fashionable back in the blissful, spiritually cosmopolitan days of the Puritanical “sound doctrine”.
SGM needs to just cut the legalistic excrement altogether to be frank and start treating people like adults with brains. Imagine, the hubris of Josh or CJ telling a woman or man with two Ph.D.s, or an M.D., or a business owner, or a manager, or a home-schooling father or a police man or woman, or a school principle, that they are too dumb to even discern who they are in love with and who they feel compliments them in a loving marriage relationship. Ug. Stop majoring in disputable matters and minoring in God’s love, forbearance, and acceptance.
Books like Josh’s only confuse people, and bind their minds unnecessarily. Though his motives may have been benign (as John Immel points out, ARE ALWAYS the motives of wolves, who are animals that act upon instinct and love of lamb chops, not on malice or evil, necessarily), think of WHY a guy like Josh and his books appealed to CJ, et al. ’nuff said. It’s just another way to get the children of God to doubt themselves; tell themselves they are idiots who can’t think straight. And gee, what would be attractive about that to a guy like CJ? Very simply…EVERYTHING.
Josh, this kind of thing is just up CJ’s Happy Pastor alley. It’s just another brick in the wall of spiritual abuse: Hey you, out there in the cold always doing what you’re told can you help me?…hey you, lowly pew sitter…muck and mold-covered polder of our palace above the water…just sit there, shut up, stop asking questions, and remember, WE’LL tell you where you can work, how much you can work, where you can live, teach you the Systematic Theology Jitter Bug, and who YOU WILL MARRY. Because you can’t even be trusted to go on a date alone with a girl…or boy…or the I-Can’t-Quite-Tell-These-Days contingent. Just remember that, Sheep!
@jimmy
Do you still believe in Christianity or did your experience turn u off to God completely?
So Josh gets to make more money off another book…..bravo. :?
In SGM “churches” where dads follow the pastors in lockstep, the fathers yearn for a way to make themselves feel more powerful. What better way to exalt one’s own self than to play God with any suitors desiring to get to know a daughter who is viewed by her father as private property for ego enhancement.
What’s really sad is that these girls are getting older and their biological time clocks are ticking…. Their needs and desires are almost totally ignored as their fathers rule with an iron scepter. Many of these young couples only court three months before tying the knot. Is it any wonder that their marriages could be at risk?
These dads don’t want a real man of character for their daughter. They want yes men who are still boys so their daughters will always look to dad as the patriarch of the entire clan. It’s EMOTIONAL INCEST.
Jedi, :word you would not be surprised at listening to the 9/2010 meeting at KWCC in which ‘the dave’ on behalf of SGM came to Midlothian and told that congregation that they wouldn’t even be having family meetings anymore, much less open mic times, unless someone’s sin was necessary to discuss. I might be slightly off but that meeting’s recording was still on KWCC’s site last time I looked if you want to hear more of that kind of control. And oh yeah, he also said if you don’t like it maybe you need to leave. Which half the people did. :clap
This describes the hell many of these girls experience: http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/
I will be happy with SGM when they are a footnote awash in a sea of footnotes, written in very small print accompanied by several even smaller asterisks in an unfortunately large book written probably a long time from now on the Systematic Theological Review of Extremely Depressing and Off-Putting Doctrinal Missteps and Heresies and the Resulting Inevitable Emotional and Spiritual Fallout of the Late 20 and Early 21st Century. And the subsequent blog which the grandchildren of Kris, and Guy, and Jim, and Dee, and Deb will start, called: SGM’s Generous and Selfless Contribution to Modern Western Atheism).
forgot to mention in #28…
someone fill me in on the details to this, but i do specifically remember a few years back when a leader at New Attitude said this: “guys, ask the girls out!!!”
You see, after years of legalism regarding dating, and especially after IKDG came out, no one was dating – all the singles were filled w/ fear about showing interest in another single…
I can not explain how this took shape at cfc but it did…. everyone was full of fear – it’s just not natural!!!!!! Obviously not what God intended…
This book did do some damage…
Josh Harris has a keen sense of timing for business marketing and making money. Some people are so seriously duped about this guy.
I visited his blog where he asks everyone to chime in on which cover they prefer to see on his new book. One cover shows a drawing of a girl and a guy walking together. Here is what I suggested they add:
“I think you need to put a drawing of the girl’s dad in the middle of the couple…. Have the guy holding hands with the dad the way it really works.”
Honestly. :barf:
I’m getting confused,but since I have honest questions and possibly a somewhat different view of the book issue under discussion, I’ll venture forth and take my chances. My thoughts are random, so my comments and queries may not follow a chronological pattern.
1. I’m not a statistician, but instinct and logic tell me that there isn’t enough information in these discussions to draw definitive conclusions of a correlation between application of the courtship theories and methods and subsequent failed marriages. Don’t marriages fail for many different reasons? I’m open to correction here based on proper analysis, not just emotion.
For instance, can we conclude that a specific failed marriage is directly the fault of a family’s practicing (not the right verb perhaps) courtship principles as taken from this book? If we can so conclude, then wouldn’t we have to factor in how many “courtship marriages” were and are still successful? And would we allow anyone to conclude that such “successes” were *because* of the value of the book? If we do not attach a cause and effect in the case of success, can we be fair and assign a cause and effect in the case of failure?
Also, to draw sound conclusions, wouldnt we need to know the percentage of marriages that failed where the couple or their parents (both sets) never even heard of Joshua Harris or practiced any courtship rituals, simply met, fell in love, got married, and yet could not or did not make it work? And also know the percentage that — without courtship — met fell in love, got married and did make it work?
2. Is it wrong, when a book is successfully marketed, for the author to gain financially from his success? I sense a negative feeling here about earning royalties from publishing — or am I wrong? It seems that unless the author (in this case Josh Harris) pledges to give away all profits, that somehow he’s doing something wrong or not exactly morally clean.
Now, these are honest queries. Before anyone jumps, please know I am not defending anything that was done dishonestly or unscrupulously — such as publishing “jimmy’s” story without his consent with a signed release — that appears to be unconscionable or certainly a huge and immature (at best) blunder.
What I am asking about and concerned about is the unwarranted conclusion that if a courtship-based marriage fails, it somehow has to be the fault of the method, rather than — possibly — human failure and sinfulness.
These comments bring back so many memories, even though my experience with SGM over the years has been fleeting. I remember attending Bill Gothard seminars as a young woman right out of college and a new Christian in the mid ’70s. I got much good from it, particularly the teaching on making wise appeals instead of demands and how to apologize in a way that brings true forgiveness. The teachings on marriage and children made little impact, as I was happily single and focused on my relationship with God. I do remember around age 22 going to my alcoholic atheist dad and announcing that from now on I’d like to ask interested fellows to call him and ask permission to date me. He immediately announced he’d do no such thing, which was a huge relief because at least I’d given it the old Gothard try. I’m pretty sure Gothard taught that unmarried adult children were under the authority of even heathen fathers, but thankfully mine was never interested in the job.
@Friendly Observer – yes, my point exactly.
We could take a poll of the healthiest married couples we know and ask them if they courted, dated or lived together before they were married. We would hear a delightful variety of answers and yet somehow the couples are happily married.
There are SGM pastors and wives who eloped without their parents’ knowledge, there are some who married single-moms, there are some who were virgins and some who were not, and there were some who married each other before they were even Believers. There is also at least one that survived an extra-marital affair.
SGM is simply not cookie-cutter when it comes to true life stories and that is a good thing. So, why pass along cookie-cutter advice to the next generation?
Is there something that generally happens when a SGM couple divorces, i.e. do they leave the church and then divorce? Is remarriage frowned upon? Is a divorced church member viewed as tainted and less likely to find friends?
@Persona, Yes, I agree with you about the diversity. That’s why I don’t have a problem with his books. It’s a free market place of ideas. If his principles worked for you, awesome. If you balk at them, feel the freedom in Christ to do something else.
Friendly Observer said,
I spent some time re-reading both I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Boy Meets Girl this past summer, just to refresh my memory as to what Josh Harris actually said in those books.
And here’s the thing…
While of course marriages fail for all sorts of reasons, and while of course the courtship ideas outlined in Boy Meets Girl were not expressly presented as some sort of foolproof way to create a perfect and everlasting marriage, the fact remains that both IKDG and BMG are saturated with one main message: The way “the world” goes about the spouse-finding process is wrong, wrong, wrong! Here is a far more righteous, spiritually superior way of doing things that safeguards young people from giving away their hearts and sinning against God.
As someone else mentioned, particularly Boy Meets Girl would be a thin volume indeed, if the anecdotal stories Josh used as “evidence” for the superiority of courtship were removed. Stories like Megan’s and Kerrin’s comprised probably at least half the book. Megan’s and Kerrin’s story was specifically used – complete with lengthy excerpts from Megan’s journals – as “proof” for the notion that one’s initial gut-level attraction (or lack thereof) to a person is not really a valid reason to refuse to enter into a courtship with that person. Other considerations, like the person’s “godly character” (as perceived by one’s friends and parents), are far more important than attraction and romantic emotions. The story of Megan and Kerrin’s wedding was shared as a sort of grand finale, a way to show how a “truly biblical” marriage that had been built in a church community would look.
Now, it’s true that Josh Harris never said that M&K’s relationship was destined for everlasting success because they followed the parentally supervised courtship system rather than dating in the ordinary way, without input from their parents and friends. Josh never said their marriage was somehow divorce-proof.
But it was so totally insinuated that one’s marriage will have a better chance if one finds one’s spouse with the “wise counsel” of one’s parents, pastors, and church friends, and if one “guards one’s heart” and all that sort of baloney.
So, no – of course Josh Harris and his books are not responsible for the bust-up of marriages that came about because of courtship. BUT, if Josh and his publisher are going to try for another go-round with these books, making money off of them, they really need to be exceedingly careful to quit holding up these example couples as ideals to be emulated. And there needs to be at least a couple of chapters devoted to the discussion of all the pitfalls of courtship. It’s only fair, when dating is trashed at the beginning of IKDG.
Anyway, to be clear – in no way do I mean to insinuate that the courtship system as outlined in BMG is somehow responsible for bad marriages. But just as many bad marriages have resulted from courtship as from dating – and that actually contradicts one of the large themes of both books. That is what needs to be clarified, if these books are to be re-released.
(But I’m starting to agree with Argo’s point in #30. Books like Boy Meets Girl really don’t need to be written in the first place…let alone re-published.)
I guess I also have to go back to the analogy someone made earlier – if a company manufactured a tool that had injured a lot of people, it wouldn’t really matter if plenty of others had been able to use the tool without incident. A responsible company would feel compelled to have appropriate warnings distributed with any new versions of the tool, as well as descriptions of the kinds of mishaps people had had.
Friendly Observer, I know these churches firsthand. I know large numbers of young people involved. I know their parents very well. I see the devastation, the hurt, the frustration and the tears felt by the daughters. I see the paranoia of the parents with both sons and daughters.
You know sometimes a little common sense can go a long way.
As in parents rearing their children to become mature Christian adults and then leaving it to the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives when it comes to adult decisions they must make.
As in fathers treating mature young Christian men with the respect they deserve rather than treating them as subservient peons. Do you think it gets a relationship started in a positive direction when a mature Christian man in his twenties is told he “must court the girl’s father” before he can be given “permission” to court the man’s daughter? It’s happening in SGM churches.
What young man in his right mind would pursue a girl with a sick dad like that. Like it or not, when you marry someone you get involved with the in-laws. A wise person would avoid that type of situation and many are.
Do you think it helps foster godly relationships when a father will not allow any mature Christian suitor to speak to his daughter until he fills out a 100 question questionaire? It’s happening in SGM churches.
Yes, if the in-laws are trying to control their adult children in their twenties to this extent, then you can bet marriage problems are ahead.
Add to that the EXPECTATION in many of these courtships that the couple must marry within 3-6 months and you’ve got not only trouble, but complete idiocy. There are people who spend more time looking for a house to live in. A person you’re considering potentially marrying takes time to get to know. A girl is not a mere purchase, although many of these girls are treated like property.
I saw a book cover once that showed a newly married couple under the covers of their bed. At the end of the covers there were 6 feet sticking out – two of the feet in the middle belonged to one of the in-laws. That is your average SGM courtship family. You tell me if that makes for a good marriage.
Some things are just common sense.
As for Josh’s making money off his books, he’s a shark in sheep’s clothing. Yes, there is a huge problem with the way he has failed to adequately address the many heartbreaking situations that have resulted from over-controlling parents sticking their fingers into the lives of their adult children. This book is well timed for a reason and it has everything to do with enhancing a following which Josh very much needs at this moment.
Jim
That question does not have a straightforward answer.
@jimmy
Are u a Christian? Or….. Did your experience make u conclude that Jesus and Christianity not true.
People have fallen into one of two extremes:
1. Courtship as practiced in SGM churches.
2. Dating as widely practiced in our culture.
There is a third option.
I’ll give you a hint at the first step: Rear a child into a mature Christian you can trust. Rear a child into a person you have a trusting relationship with. Rear a child who grows into a mature adult, takes responsibility well and possesses a genuine walk with the Lord. Rear a child who knows he is a sinner in need of a Savior and who knows the Gospel is his true hope.
Once all of those understandings are in place, you really can leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide both you and your adult children. They will naturally desire your input because your relationship is healthy and strong. You will naturally trust them to prayerfully go to the Lord as they get to know a number of different people, all of whom are Christians. In this way they gain knowledge and confidence to discern whom God may bless them with as a future spouse. They will ask for parental input because they respect their parent’s wisdom, but they know that in the end the decision of who to choose as a spouse is between them and God. They will answer to God as mature adults.
Too many courtship parents are pushing their kids into relationships prematurely.
In other words, courtship as it is practiced in SGM churches shows a FAILURE on the part of parents to develop a trusting relationship with their adult children.
It shows a lack of faith on the part of the parents in realizing that God is sovereign and able to guide their adult children through the Holy Spirit.
It shows a pitiful disregard for the dignity of many of these home schooled young people who stand so far above many of their public schooled peers in the area of moral accountability.
And to me it shows that in all likelihood many of these baby boomer SGM parents who are so obsessed with controlling their adult children must have themselves led immoral lives at one time. I do not know how else to explain their fear of letting go and letting God.