Team Pyro Opens It Up…

Frank from the Pyromaniacs blog has put up a post that permits commentary about Sovereign Grace Ministries.

I haven’t yet decided if I have the courage to join that discussion.  Frankly, I’ve found the interactions over there pretty intimidating, even just as a lurker.  I’d strongly encourage anyone who chooses to participate to abide by the established rules, work hard to contribute concise and focused points, and do your best to keep your cool.


  1. That Bad Dog says:

    An utterly predictable discussion has ensued. We begin with a passive-aggressive opening which frames the debate in impossible terms, and then the Reformed Baptist knives come out against the first person to make a substantive comment critical of SGM, with a response which pretty much shows that they have not even a slender appreciation of the real issues.

    I am once again reminded of why I stopped reading that blog.

  2. El Pastor says:

    One thing you have to say about Frank Turk. He has a shepherd’s heart that overflows with the tenderest sympathies for the wounded sheep in the dear Savior’s flock. The healing balm of Christ’s love surrounds every word choice he makes. Even the title of his blog post is like good news to the ears of the afflicted and binding on their wounds.

  3. Kris says:

    Well, “Bad Dog” – could you give them a concise summary of the real issues? That would be helpful. I’m contemplating whether or not to try to put one together myself. But conciseness has never been my strong point. :D

    And of course, like I said, I find them all really intimidating. I probably read the comments over there a couple of times a week and am often amazed by how self-satisfied and self-congratulatory they are when someone puts the smack-down on a new commenter.

    I mean, I appreciate their confidence in and allegiance to Scripture. I really do. And I have learned a lot from them. But there’s still something jarring about the virtual high-fives and the scorn they exude when some hapless soul challenges them. They definitely have their own tight little (sometimes unspoken) rules for engagement.

    Right now the persistent question over there seems to be which (if any) outside organization would have been qualified to mediate SGM’s problems. The very fact that this is the focal point of the discussion demonstrates that they don’t see the irony of the notion of an outside mediator in the first place – and how the need for an outside mediator is one of the main symptoms of one of SGM’s biggest issues, which is their underlying belief in apostolic authority and the pyramid-shaped governance structure and lack of accountability that goes with the belief that the guys at the top (the apostles) cannot make real mistakes and don’t really need to answer to anyone who doesn’t work for them and thus occupy an inferior position.

  4. Kris says:

    El Pastor –

    I feel dumb for even needing to ask this…but…you were being ironic, right? :D

  5. El Pastor says:

    Yes, Kris, I was. The condescension in Turk’s post is pretty overwhelming.

  6. El Pastor says:

    What strikes me about TeamPyro is their complete willingness to jump all over Mark Driscoll without hesitation, and their complete devotion to protecting C.J. Mahaney

    I have come up with a one word answer: friendship.

  7. Kris says:

    El Pastor –

    I’ve thought a lot about this over the years, and it seems to me that it’s more nuanced than just friendship. I might be mistaken, but it’s possible that one or more of the Pyro guys haven’t even met CJ face to face, let alone formed any sort of friendship with him.

    I believe it comes down to the fact that CJ has paid lip service to the proper Reformed doctrinal passwords…and has the right alliances with the right Reformed Big Dogs. Also, CJ has heretofore advocated a level of unquestioning loyalty to one’s “local” church that the members of Team Pyro would also appear to value. (Never mind that for years, SGM would have considered just about all the Pyro guys’ “local” churches inferior and inadequate for not embracing SGM’s continuationist views and SGM’s particular methods of conducting small groups…and would have viewed them as part of a good target audience for another SGM church plant…but that’s another topic.)

    CJ has thus been bestowed a level of acceptance and protection within the rest of the Reformed community. He says the right words…he has the right friends…he’s very meticulously kept his previous apostolic continuationist Charismatic squishiness from any public scrutiny or discussion…

    CJ has also been crafty enough to distance himself from the crude sex talk and “I See Dead Fornicating People” schtick of Mark Driscoll.

    Therefore, he’s a de facto member of their side, their team. If they fault CJ for anything, it has to be his Charismatic side. It can’t be anything else, because CJ’s ostensibly correct-to-the-letter doctrine won’t (in these guys’ thinking) permit real errors.

    They are not friends of CJ’s – they’re loyal friends of CJ’s purported doctrine.

  8. El Pastor says:

    I don’t disagree with you, Kris. But I asked Phil Johnson directly about his view of the SGM situation and he said “I know C.J., and I like him.” Then he went on to the charismatic thing.

  9. facedown2000 says:

    I don’t think “the pyromaniacs” are friends of CJ at all. They’re rather critical of charismatics, and they haven’t been too kind to TGC lately, either. I found their discussion of “Bond of Bloggers” to be rather amusing, too. So far I’ve appreciated the discussion there on this topic.

    That said, Frank does have a certain way with words, and I thought El Pastor’s first post was hilarious.

  10. Julie Anne says:

    This is off topic, but I wanted to share a bit of my story as it relates to spiritual abuse. I’ve been a long-time reader here and wanted to thank Kris and contributors of this site for helping me in my journey. It was through this SGM that I came to the realization of spiritual abuse in my former church. As I read the stories, it felt like I was reading about my own church experiences.

    A slight different twist in my case – I posted a negative Google review about my former church and the pastor has sued me and 4 others for defamation for $500,000. My Google reviews were removed by “someone” and I felt my voice was being taken from me, so I started a blog. I’m sorry, Kris, I was not too original in my blog name. The media has now found the story and it is taking off nationally.

    But what I want to express is the heartfelt thanks. The people who were willing to take a risk and tell their stories here gave me the courage to start my blog. Since that time, I have been in touch with countless people from a decade back who also dealt with this same spiritual abuse and suffered silently and alone. People finally have a voice – finally have a way to connect and are finally realizing that they weren’t crazy.

    Thank you, SGMSurvivors!

  11. Another Joe says:

    I never heard of pyromaniacs blog before today, personally i feel like if the guy has kept his baptist loving heart out of the conversation this long he should have just kept staying out of it…

    His writing is high school level at best, but my son does have a girl in his second grade class that could write better i think.

    But i guess his name fits his blog because he would love to burn my arminian butt on a stake…

    Still gotta love him……

  12. Luna Moth says:

    Just wanted to say welcome, Julie Anne. I’m glad you and others are finding a voice and realizing you aren’t alone, you aren’t crazy.

  13. Defended says:

    Kris, you can do it!
    I don’t know how far I’ve read into this but I like what I’m reading from some posts. If you are inclined to post there, go for it. I’m sure your blog-friends have got your back.

    I liked what I was reading about the right vs. wrong of Brent going public. It’s not like they really can say, with a straight face that he hadn’t tried every other method of addressing CJ’s unaccountable behavior.

  14. Lee says:

    Would love to see Kris put up a summary at Team Pyro of the issues she sees at SGM.

    She’s better at putting things into words than most of us put together!

  15. Ozymandias says:

    And I second Lee’s opinion.

  16. Kris says:

    Thanks for the votes of confidence, guys – but I’ve been trying quite literally all day to put something together and have been experiencing total writer’s block. And, not to sound too sanctimonious or anything, but I’ve been praying about this and just have not felt any sort of release to post any of the little paragraphs I have managed to string together.

  17. Defender says:

    Kris, you are a competent writer, and very intelligent.

    That said, Don’t do anything the Holy Spirit doesn’t give you to do over there.
    You certainly have your hands full with this blog……

    It looks a little more of an SGM outsiders discussion, even though I have put a few posts up, I’m not sure where it will go. (Not sure I have time to do pyros. Even though I have spent the last few hours reading up over there.)

  18. Oswald says:

    The pyro guys and many others views of charismaticism, including the RBD’s, is the reason SGM is shying away from it’s charismatic ways. IMO, many feel as if charismaticism is a not much more than a magic show designed to induce emotions. What the pyro guys don’t seem to realize is that SGM doesn’t go there much anymore; so as not to look foolish and ‘down-home’, maybe even a little non-Baptist.

  19. Oswald says:

    I just spent a lot of time reading at Pyro, too. A lot of good was stated. Interesting that they mention that the one time they open their flood-gates to survivors, not many survivors commented. I wonder why that was. Or is it that some commented but were deleted for breaking their rules. I wonder if it shows that much of what is said here looks like gossip or bitterness. When you read it to yourself, it may not really seem helpful to post among those who probably won’t agree.

  20. Jimmy says:

    Kris, the intimidation factor at pyro is simple; wild accusation or 3rd party accusation are not accepted. They’re taking the same stance the Washington Post did. At blogs like this one; wild and third party accusations often seemed the norm. That makes it extremely difficult to tell the wheat from the chaff.

  21. Stunned says:

    Kris, wait. When the time is right, God will give you the words and the peace. Until then, I believe He will be busy at work preparing hearts and revealing truth.

  22. Rick says:

    If it is not too irreverent to compare commenting at the pyro blog on the SGM topic to playing blackjack in Vegas, what is true of one is true of the other: the House always wins. The dripping condescension (That Bad Dog and El Pastor are reading this correctly in posts 1 & 2, I think), evident in the invitation and the ‘house rules’, the use of Matt. 18 as a club–I think it is wise to avoid interaction with them. Kris, I would encourage you to rest rather than engage with the spiritual bullying taking place in the guise of ‘sincerely wanting to understand’. I am waiting for a proper exegesis of Scripture regarding the lust to defend those who have abused positions of power rather than coming along side those that have been harmed–I guess doctrine trumps all. Respect is listening first; God demonstrates that to us throughout the Psalms–how I wish leadership had the guts to invite those with complaints to come, and speak uncensored–maybe healing would flow.

  23. Jimmy says:

    Rick, if the house always wins at teampyro, doesn’t the house always win at sgmsurvivors? Kris does set the rules, just like Frank Turk. Frank just wants more proofs of spiritual abuse.
    You could go over there and tell Frank he’s a spiritual bully. He might actually appreciate that.

  24. Kris says:

    Jimmy, I guess my question would be, what would constitute “proof” for Frank Turk and the rest of the Pyro guys?

    To me it seems like the only “proof” they would accept is some sort of signed acknowledgement from the perpetrators of the abuse. Anything less than the pastor’s/leader’s own full confession is “unsubstantiated.” Anything else is deemed gossip and/or slander.

    What people don’t understand, too, is that there’s a tremendous level of shame involved in working through the fact that you’ve willingly put yourself in a situation where your church leaders manipulated and controlled and mistreated you. There shouldn’t be shame, but there is. There aren’t a whole lot of people who were savvy enough while their spiritual abuse was happening to have documented everything (“substantiated proof”) – and I doubt many of those who do have a paper trail of some sort would be eager to put themselves out there under their real names (another piece of what the Pyro guys would probably require in order to establish “proof” and stay away from the gossip ‘n’ slander accusations).

    So I think it’s true that their house wins. They have set up the parameters of the discussion in such a way that unless a whole bunch of people are willing to put themselves out there under the real full names and happened to have been cognizant enough of what was happening to them while it was happening to have saved emails and recorded conversations and so forth, there is just no way there will ever be enough “evidence” for them.

    In other words, their minds are already made up. You can hear it in the tone of Mr. Turk’s title and his obvious irritation with the topic. He’s already concluded that there’s little more than unsubstantiated rumors to the stories about CJ. The evidence that has been put out there – Brent’s documents, full of emails from the good man CJ himself – is discounted and theologically inadmissable because there’s no “biblical mandate” to warn others and talk about a church organization’s problems in public.

  25. Rick says:

    Jimmy, I did not call Frank a spiritual bully–I try to be careful never to refer to someone who is seen by Christ as holy and blameless in terms of personal behaviors. I observed what I believe to be spiritual bullying taking place–I offered as evidence the condenscending tone and use of proof-text scripture as a club. If you have evidence of Kris acting in an abusive way toward those who post here, I’m sure she would want to be made aware of that.

    My guess is that Frank has many to affirm him in his actions and beliefs, as well as perhaps a few who would question him–I have no dog in that fight other than a sincere desire to protect some who are vulnerable from this particular interaction with his blog.

    Kris stated much more eloquently than I could regarding the impossible standard of proof required; thank you.

  26. LMalone says:

    You know, a big problem with this whole scenerio is wanting other “leaders” or “celebrities” to “get it”. Not going to happen. They see unauthorized bloggers as threats to themselves and their little kingdoms. They can see something similar happening to them so they set up these fake forums of “openess” where they control the venue. It is a complete waste of time. They all have some variation of a “Brent” in their closets due to the longevity of doing what they do.

    The best bet is to warn as many pew sitters out there as possible. Ignore the celebs.

    Ronald Reagan did the same thing when he ran for Prez. He ignored the big names and took his message to the every day people. It worked because his message resonated with people.

    The celebs are a waste of time. They have too much to lose to even give it serious consideration. Going in there only helps them to focus it the way they want because they control the venue. They don’t control this blog or other blogs.

    More and more people are waking up to the rise of the Nicolaitans in these institutions they call churches. Some of it is just the economy and people are asking why they are supporting large salaries and buildings when there are seriously hurting people out there. Some of it is that more and more people are taking advantage of all the free study tools at their disposal and are questioning what they have been taught.

    There will always be sycophants who want to follow a celeb or guru. But our task is to warn folks. We do not need the celebrities endorsement for that. Turk has been striving to be a celeb for a long time.He is vitriolic and his bias has shown through for years. I stopped reading over there years back when Phil Johnson said in comments that his wife was not allowed to answer a doctrinal question asked by a man even if she knew the right answer. Does not matter if she was at the grocery or at the park.

    These guys are full of themselves.

  27. lmalone says:

    “Brent’s documents, full of emails from the good man CJ himself – is discounted and theologically inadmissable because there’s no “biblical mandate” to warn others and talk about a church organization’s problems in public”

    Now that is interesting. Guess the Apostle John is in big sin according to Pyro guys since he made the problems in a church with Diotrephes public knowledge in a letter for all the read for 2000 years. Or how about Paul who made the problem with Peter known publicly and then wrote about it to ANOTHER church for people to read about for 2000 years.

    Amazing how they spin things to fit their own advantage. But then, they think we are stupid. And many do believe what they say or teach. They are concerned about the Reformed brand. That is for sure. I am seeing it everywhere. The Driscoll mess, Mahaney, etc. The Reformed/NC guys are circling the wagons on SBC blogs, too.

  28. lmalone says:

    “I’ve thought a lot about this over the years, and it seems to me that it’s more nuanced than just friendship. I might be mistaken, but it’s possible that one or more of the Pyro guys haven’t even met CJ face to face, let alone formed any sort of friendship with him.

    I believe it comes down to the fact that CJ has paid lip service to the proper Reformed doctrinal passwords…and has the right alliances with the right Reformed Big Dogs. ”

    Bingo, Kris. Mahaney has been smart and aligned himself with the real movers and shakers. T4G and Gospel Coalition, etc. And most importantly, Mohler, Duncan and Dever.

    No way is Pyro going to dis Mohler who has stuck his neck way out there for Mahaney. Mohler’s job could be on the line and he is pulling out all stops over the problems in the Reformed movement that have come about in the last year. There are many in the SBC (which is 80% non Calvinist and is just now waking up a bit to the Reformed takeover) who are starting to take a closer look at all this Mohler T4G and GC stuff. Many are the non Calvinist pastors who are getting more and more vocal about it. The word is finally getting out. They have been asleep for the last 10 years. And this last Driscoll scandal did not help since Mohler’s guy, Ezell at NAMB, was giving money to plant “Calvinist only” Acts 29 churches. Mohler simply cannot take another major hit. NEver forget, he might look like a pope but he is really an SBC employee. And until they can get the new Great Commission Bapists denomination going, they need the SBC money to plant Reformed churches so he will have something to rule over.

    So, the wagons are circling. Protect Mohler. He is basically the Reformed brand pope. So now he can say, that McArthur agrees that there is no real problem with Mahaney. They even investigated on Pyro and opened it up to SGM complainers. Just digruntled bloggers. That is big. Trust me on that.

    And it will work. It always does because people believe these guys. Mohler is one of the most brilliant political strategists there are out there. He missed his true calling.

  29. El Pastor says:

    Please don’t be disheartened. I am confident that although TeamPyro is using their thread to bash the Survivors, the word is getting out through them that there are serious issues out there. People who know little or nothing about this are starting to hear.

  30. JeffB says:

    I was not online much yesterday, and didn’t see that Frank Turk had written that post, or Kris’s pointing that out.

    Considering the acrimonious exchanges Turk and I have had on the issue, I’m surprised that he even went *this* far. I like to think that his conscience was bothering him. Turk wrote that he was writing the post because of SGM “Survivors.” That’s ambiguous, but it at least shows some level of concern. Or maybe not. It’s hard to tell with him. Maybe he knows about things said about him here, and he wants to get some licks in.

    Concerning friendship between Pyros and Mahaney, I think in Turk’s case it’s more like hero worship. He once wrote that, while attending a conference, he was nervous that Mahaney was walking behind him. (I would be too, but for different reasons.) I think Turk went on to say that he tried to be calm when meeting him.

    I haven’t yet read the comments on Pyro, but I’m gratified there are so many. Kris, I don’t know if you decided to comment, but I see both sides of the issue. On one hand, you are the most qualified to comment; on the other, as you say, it’s most likely pointless, unless someone who never comes here reads what you have to say. Not everyone is as thick-headed as Turk.

    I re-printed what I wrote to AOR. (I go as jmb on Pyro.) Don’t know if Turk will delete it.

  31. Jimmy says:

    Kris said: “Jimmy, I guess my question would be, what would constitute ‘proof’ for Frank Turk and the rest of the Pyro guys? To me it seems like the only ‘proof’ they would accept is some sort of signed acknowledgement from the perpetrators of the abuse. Anything less than the pastor’s/leader’s own full confession is ‘unsubstantiated.’ Anything else is deemed gossip and/or slander.”

    Kris, why was the Washington Post article such a let down? Is it not because when rumor, innuendo and 3rd party stories were disallowed there simply wasn’t a whole lot there. And you can’t accuse the Washington Post of either being a friend of, or on the payroll of SGM.

    Kris, I want to know why a small group leader who is over the top all of a sudden becomes an indictment of C.J. Mahaney and all the other leaders?

    Kris, I want to know why you, as blog author, allow commentors to make wide ranging and sometimes ridiculous or scurrilous accusations without reining in the comments; setting out the standards for appropriate responding.

    I will again reiterate that in my consistent reading over the last 12 months it’s been very difficulty to find specific spiritual abuses by C.J. and some of his leaders. It would appear, according to the SGM blogs, the C.J. is practically the father of spiritual abuse and SGM is a uniquely abusing ministry. I really doubt that.

    Kris, has C.J. personally caused you or your family pain or are you just carrying other people’s water?
    I wanted to hear the stories that started with, “This is how I was hurt by C.J. Mahaney.” Not, “this is how somebody I know was hurt by C.J. Mahaney.”

  32. Jimmy says:

    I thought pastors who were found unfit for ministry might have some legitimate complaints. There appeared to be, at one time, a “catch 22” situation where they would accuse a man of being unfit for the pastorate and if he disagreed, they used his disagreement as proof he was unfit. How much of that was specifically caused by C.J. Mahaney has been hard to discern.

    Finally, the most repetitive club used was the sexual abuse a couple of different times somewhere in the last decade where a congregant was guilty of the abuse of a child outside the watch of their particular church. Out of that, the families of the abused were not well cared for. How did that become a C.J. Mahaney sin? I don’t think he even attended those churches did he?

    I assumed there MUST BE some real serious sins in C.J. and the leaderships. But frankly, reading you blog and the comments just seemed to deepen the fog. I would have preferred more facts and less unsubstantiated allegations.

    As for Brent; if he and I attended the same meeting where C.J. was speaking I’m sure we’d have heard totally different things. After years of hearing pastors and evangelist I pretty much ignore hyperbole. Brent makes a federal case of it.
    Brent has indicated, quite frequently, that not only does he wish to be the prosecuting attorney, he also desires to be judge and jury of C.J. Mahaney. Is it unkind to say Brent is just a tad obsessive?

  33. Persona says:

    I agree with El Pastor 29. And, since God started this work, he will use every means possible to get through to CJ Mahaney and his cohorts. The turns may be circuitous and incomprehensible to us but, he will make the issues plain through various means. God is good and truth cannot be hindered.

  34. Kris says:

    Jimmy –

    I’m gonna channel a bit of the Pyro guys here. You haven’t answered MY question, which was:

    What would constitute ‘proof’ for Frank Turk and the rest of the Pyro guys?

    Don’t bother contributing more until you have explained precisely what you would consider “proof.”


  35. Kris says:

    And about the Washington Post article, I know for a fact that the vast majority of people who asked me to put them in touch with the reporter so that they could go on the record with her were never contacted by her (and thus were not quoted in her article). A couple of these folks even went so far as to call her and leave her voicemails, to no avail.

  36. ATC says:

    From my reading so far – up to post 100 – one of the most frequent posters (I doubt Tom is actually reading HERE, but ‘Hi Tom’ if you are….) seems more concerned in using the regulative principle to show that no-one should ever have heard of these incidents at all. Or something like that. But at least they’re talking about it. Even if they’re not talking about the bad behaviour of the leaders.

    ATC, Bristol, UK.

  37. Jimmy says:

    Kris said: “What would constitute ‘proof’ for Frank Turk and the rest of the Pyro guys?”

    ANSWER: Primary sources

  38. Kris says:

    I should add that I have absolutely no idea why a reporter would ask to be put in touch with people willing to go on the record and be interviewed, only to not actually follow through with many of those who volunteered to go on the record. But that’s what happened.

  39. Kris says:

    So SGM does not have real problems unless a certain number of individuals share their stories over at the Pyro blog, under (I presume) their full real names?

    What number of stories would convince you that there is a problem?

  40. ATC says:

    Jimmy, post 31/32

    I advise people who want to know the issues to go way back to 2008 on here and sgmrefuge. The ‘refuge’ site has a handy ‘Your Story’ (parts 1 and 2) link which is a good place to start.

    I understand that jumping straight into Survivors or Refuge might sometimes feel like a hornet’s nest of incredulous anger, deep cynicism, and outright scorn of anything to do with SGM Top-Of-The-Pyramid-Leadership. I can think of two reasons for this:

    1) It’s partly due to the unique nature of spiritual abuse. (It’s real. It’s damaging. End of.) Many posters have, over the years, gone through a real healing journey on and through the blogs. But, as anyone who posts here will say, there IS often real anger. And there is often real bitterness.

    2) It’s partly due to the fact that if you simply started reading Survivors and Refuge today you wouldn’t have experienced on these blogs FOUR years worth of spin, duplicity, damage control and lies that have issued forth from the SGM Top-Of-The-Pyramid-Leadership. Witness the very start of Survivors and the reason that Kris & Guy started the blog. It was all so charmingly innocent!

    ATC, Bristol, UK.

  41. Another Joe says:

    @ Jimmy

    Primary Sources ha ha ha!!!!!

    Even if i have never agreed with Brent i would like to point out to Frank Turk that Brent is a very good primary source lol.

  42. jimmy says:

    Kris, have you been hurt by C.J. Mahaney personally?

  43. jimmy says:

    ATC, have you been hurt or spiritually abused by C.J.?

  44. Stunned says:


    Primary source- Happymom

    Primary source- Irv

    Primary source- Noel &Grizzly

    Primary source- SGM not

    Primary source- gladiamout

    Primary source- Kerrin

    Primary source- Me

    Primary source- Defender & Defended

    Primary source- Canary

    Primary source- Jim & Carole

    There is a start. It may keep you busy for a bit.

    No, my question for you is WHY do you want to read these stories?

  45. Another Joe says:

    @ Jimmy

    Hurt are you seriously asking these questions.

    This hurts all of us. That is what kills me. You people see this as a SGM related issue. When really its not at all. Its a Christianity Issue!!!!

    Which means that C.J. and Dave have not hurt only us, they have also put a huge stain on the modern church.

    One leaders mistakes hurt all of jimmy.

    I have stated this a hundred times on this blog. C.J. always wanted to leave a legacy. Well he did…….

  46. jimmy says:

    Another Joe, actually I’ve said, all along, the hurts experienced at SGM are NOT UNIQUE to them. They happen throughout Christendom in all churches and all denominations. It was the BLOGS that suggested SGM was uniquely guilty of spiritual abuse.

    I’ve always thought it was pretty much business-as-usual found in any denomination.

    I thought the “sins” of C.J. were pretty much the sins of any charismatic visionary. The BLOGS suggested that he was particuarly narcissistic and conniving and if his friends wouldn’t publically denounce him then they were guilty too ( the old independent Baptist “secondary separation.”)

    Reading the blogs you would have thought SGM leadership was particularly sinful. My working theory; they were pretty much an average group of evangelicals trying to do ministry as they saw fit. As for the modern church, it’s alway been stained. “There is nothing new under the son.”

  47. Bridget says:

    Jimmy –

    Wow! You came out of the woodwork today! What happened to bring you out in all your self-professing rightness? You’re hitting it hard here aren’t you? You seem to only come out at certain times — why is that? Why are you capitalizing the word “blog” so much? Did you help write the AoR report?

    Let’s follow your logic. “There’s nothing new under the sun.” So . . . that means to what, Jimmy? Ignore the problems? Stop communicating with each other and go to your leaders? Sit in a pew and be quiet? Don’t act on anything? Contrary to what you may believe, we are all called to do something. Jesus went about “doing good.” What have you been doing, Jimmy? Are CJ Mahaney’s mouthpiece. He has a lot of those, as I have yet to hear him personally address this “Family of Churches” that he has been leading.

  48. Ozymandias says:

    Jimmy #46 — If the whole SGM thing has been pretty much “business-as-usual” for any type of denomination, how would you explain the comparative silence of the Young, Restless and Reformed world as to SGM’s “nothing new under the son” shortcomings? If it’s nothing that new or different, one would think that there’s been a lot more discussion about it in/around the YRR community. Thoughts?

  49. Kris says:


    If you can really read here as extensively as you claim you have and come away with such a crappy “working theory,” then nothing I could say now is going to help you get a clearer understanding. So I’m not going to waste my time or yours by attempting to argue with you.

    Suggesting that talking about SGM’s problems is what created SGM’s problems is about the most ludicrous thing anyone has ever attempted to put forth here.

  50. Stunned says:

    Hi Jimmy,

    Could I ask if you are the Jimmy who has contributed to here in the past? I am referring to the Jimmy who grew up in SGM and who now studies science at a northeastern university.

    Either way, you claimed above that this blog claims that SGM is the only church to abuse its people. I have been reading here for nearly four years and I have neither come across that statement, nor that sentiment. But I agree with you that that would be a ridiculous statement or thought.

    I hope you have never been abused by anyone in your lifetime. I hope you are blessed and encouraged by reading here.