[Kris says: I originally wrote the following as a comment, but then it struck me that it might make a better post.]
Reader “tomcov” asked,
Just wondering…there hasn’t been a new post here since early June. Any reason?
Before I start to answer this little question, I must apologize – I’m going to use the word “I” a lot in my response. I’ve often said that this site is not personal and not about Guy and me. And that remains true. We ourselves did not actually have a bad SGM experience. We have never had a personal horse in this race.
And yet – well, sometimes there’s a personal component here, simply because a person (usually me) writes the posts. And lately, on a personal level, I have been extremely fed up with many aspects of the SGM discussion.
I think it started with the much-anticipated Ambassadors of Reconciliation report. I know that many of you thought the AoR people did a great job of walking the fine line. I know that a lot of you felt they addressed the issues in a gracious and thoughtful fashion. But frankly, I thought their report sucked wind. They seemed to spend far more energy on dissing blogs and “unprofessional” moderators than on actually taking abusive SGM leaders to task. (Uh…exactly what would have constituted a satisfactory professional moderator? And more importantly, what sort of open and honest discussion can take place if some “professional” moderator is constantly evaluating and censoring comments in order to – supposedly – keep participants from sinning?)
I know some of you will shake your heads and think I’m demonstrating a whole lot of nerve to say this, but I’m going to say it anyway: I think the AoR people exhibited a breathtaking amount of legalism in their report when they spoke so much about SGM’s critics’ perceived sinfulness. If a building is on fire, does it really matter what tone of voice the person shouting “Fire!” uses?
Anyway, the AoR report disgusted me. I was filled with a personal sense of rage on a lot of levels. Ted Kober and his cohorts are blatant hypocrites. Seriously. For all their talk of “Matthew 18″ and the proper way to deal with offenses, and their holier-than-thou judgmentalism about the “sin” they thought they saw in SGM’s critics, they themselves did not even follow their own purported protocol. They felt free to write their report and trash-talk blogs and bloggers but never once initiated any sort of dialogue with me – despite the fact that I actually wrote Ted Kober twice, fairly early in the process, offering to be of help.
So yeah, I’ve been disgusted. On a personal level.
Then there’s the reinstatement of CJ to all his full former glory…the ridiculous lies out of SGM headquarters about the rationale for moving to Louisville, with the totally untruthful statements about how the move had been in the works for a long time…the polity discussions that are (wait for it) still taking place mostly behind closed doors, with little (or no?) formal official input from the average tithe-paying member…the fact that after decades of preaching the importance of allegiance to one’s “local” church, to the point where one can almost never produce a good reason to leave one’s “local” church, CJ has been able to (it would appear) breezily extricate himself from Covenant Life Church and any accountability to the leaders there and move on to start a new church…the amazing fact that CJ would try to describe blackmail as a “common” sin…the fact that CJ would even dare to paint any of his sins as “common” after building an entire reputation upon that ridiculous “worst sinner I know™” schtick…the fact that CJ’s sons-in-law received severance packages for jobs they quit…the fact that even some of the leaders who seem to be responding better to SGM’s critics are nonetheless still refusing to take full ownership of the way they themselves handled certain abuse cases…
That list is random and only very partial. I could probably spend hours writing about multiple jaw-dropping developments that don’t seem to bother too many SGMers. Too many SGMers still sit back and shrug and say, “Oh well, no church is perfect.”
And the fact is, I just do not understand this apathy. I do not understand how it is that people continue to tolerate CJ at the helm of their church organization. I do not understand, either, how it is that other non-SGM church leaders I personally respect (I’m looking at you, Kevin DeYoung) appear to be embracing CJ even more enthusiastically now than ever before.
It used to be that SGM Survivors struck people as scandalous because we talked openly about the cultural wackiness, the unspoken mandates to homeschool and practice courtship and have legalistic date nights. We were scandalous because we dared to suggest that CJ wasn’t actually accountable to anyone and might not be humble. We were scandalous because we sometimes poked fun of SGM’s self-important ways, their belief that their particular church method WAS “the gospel.”
But now, all of that stuff has basically been copped to by leaders. Nobody is coming around here and arguing any more that we’re just gossiping and making stuff up. It’s pretty much acknowledged as documented fact that many people were misled and even harmed by SGM’s “old” ways. It’s definitely documented fact that nobody dares hold CJ accountable or try to criticize him or correct him or sway him from his chosen path.
Yet what has really and truly changed?
CJ’s still the president. Major changes (cough cough POLITY cough cough) are still plotted and discussed mostly behind closed doors. Even the guys who appear to have integrity and are daring to stand for something – Josh Harris is one example - continue to couch their statements in the most affirmingly flowery syntax known to man. (Really guys – the Bible’s command to “let your conversation be gracious as well as sensible” doesn’t mean you have to be ingratiating, where you feel the need to continuously camouflage your honest feedback with gratuitous affirmations, to the point where the much-needed rebuke gets lost in a cloud of nauseating flattery.)
So – for the past few months, I’ve been disgusted with just about everything related to SGM. And the reality is, while I think I can write as well as the next person, and while I can pull off a reasonable facsimile of journalism, I’m not actually a journalist. I’m not even someone who ever wished to become a “blogger” (professional or otherwise). Back in 2007, I thought it was odd that there was no place online that portrayed SGM’s culture in a way that reflected my own experience of SGM’s culture – so Guy created a blog and I tossed up a few posts and thought that would be the end of it. As things have unfolded, I’ve been here, along for the ride. But I have never felt like I’ve been in some sort of driver’s seat. So, if something gets old for me - as the call for reform within SGM has gotten old – then I don’t feel like writing about it.
I know there have been lots of discussion-worthy developments over the past few months, but I just haven’t had the gumption to post much about them. I still read the comments every day and keep an eye on things. Sometimes I will put on my moderator hat (wonder what sort of hat a “professional” moderator wears?) and welcome newcomers or respond.
But for the moment (well, at least until just now, as I started to write this), my heart has not been in discussions about much of anything relating to SGM. I have a very full and happy life to enjoy. Contrary to what some people may think, I’m not naturally a negative or constantly suspicious person. So after awhile, pointing out the obvious gets old.
We’ll still be here to host discussions. And if there are any aspiring journalists out there who are interested in contributing stories, let me know. I’d be happy to post reader submissions relating to anything new within SGM.
Again…sorry for the personal nature of this response. But since you asked (and others have asked via email), there you go.
[And of course, whenever I've talked about my personal disinterest in the topic of SGM, that's usually right when something happens to lure me back into the fray.]
July 23rd, 2012 at 8:16 pm
I am a former member of SGM in Chesapeake. I am curious to know who spoke and confessed what at this family meeting.
July 23rd, 2012 at 9:22 pm
Too many Mr Stretch…too many…So sad
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:05 pm
I did listen to Josh Harris’s past sunday message and really didn’t hear anything significant I would question. Harris didn’t specifically mention angry people on blogs posting. Harris did say that people could post anonymously online but referred more to sports dialogue etc.
Even though Josh didn’t directly say this if you applied what he taught Josh would be indicating that in the situation of ExCLCer’s mom and her family Gary Riccuci and John Loftness should be reaching out their family. Gary and John should be leaving their gift “on the alter.”
Sadly I wouldn’t hold your breath for either Gary or John to works towards any reconciliation.
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:23 pm
Mr Stretch,
Your words are worth repeating:
“And so it appears the split is coming. How many lives and relationships have been destoyed over one man’s pride and arrogance.”
July 23rd, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Kris-
Every once in a while I come on and read what you have to say so I wanted to encourage you to keep going. This perspective is from an outsider.
I don’t know what I am today. I tell others I am agnostic. There are many theological issues that remain barriers for me at this time in my life. The biggest has been the problem of evil. In another life, before my faith fell apart I used to be a die hard evangelical, who firmly embraced reform theology. I was into John Piper, and other reformed theology which was pushed in Campus Crusade for Christ.
Thinking I was following God’s will I took a job and moved from Wisconsin to Washington, D.C. Then a number of things in life happened, I hit a brick wall and experienced burn out at 34. When the church turned and responded to some of my doubt with skepticism and hostility I reached a tipping point. A good portion of my Christian material ended up in the garbage of my apartment complex and in the dumpster behind a Safeway in the northern Virginia suburbs.
I looked into atheist organizations, and even went to the Reason Rally. I actually became dismayed that these organizations still are faith based in their own way. However they are in denial.
So why do I write all this….
One of the guys who I talk to abot theology attends a SGM church. He’s involved in church plants. He tried to talk me into going, and tried to pressure me a few times into going. I said no..becuase I was burned out. However, I decided to research online and came across your blog and others. I was horrified by what I read. From my perspective SGM actually validates atheism. It makes it much healthy than SGM. Reading about SGM helped me understand my friend, and learn more about the culture.
While I don’t know what I believe about God, I will say that SGM is a cancer to Christianity, as there are healthier churches out there. But blogs like this help act as red flags to those who might consider attending. This blog is a warning to SGM, just as exmormon.org is a warning about Mormonism.
But regular postings and discussions I think are helpful. When I was in Christianity I wish folks like you who questioned, doubted, etc.. were involved.
July 23rd, 2012 at 11:16 pm
Eagle,
Thanks for the encouragement.
I have to say, though, that on several levels, I don’t really like comments like yours.
For one thing, when someone comes around to a site run by Christians and makes a statement like, “I am an atheist,” several interesting things tend to happen. Because Christians are supposed to be all about love and acceptance, and because we’re also supposed to be concerned about the lost atheist souls out there, a bunch of us will find ourselves compelled to respond to you much more cordially (and with as much seeming open-mindedness as we can drum up) than we would respond to other professing Christians.
The second thing that will happen is that inevitably, at least one or two of us will take the bait and try to argue with you about the problem of evil, or another of the atheist’s intellectual conundrums. Some of us will try to (like the Mormons) “bear our testimony.” Some will quote Scripture to you.
Then -- thirdly -- the conversation will end up being all about why it’s illogical to continue to believe in God and the Bible, particularly after all the bad stuff that has happened in God’s name, at SGM and/or other organizations. The declared atheist will be able to show off all his logic and all his debate skills. The good-hearted Christians, so desperate to “witness” to the declared atheist, will be hamstrung in what they want to say, which is that if you reject the good news of Jesus after having heard and once believed it, that’s kind of, um, your problem. Yes, we’d love to “love you back in.” Yes, we’d love to be the instruments that the Holy Spirit chooses to use to bring you back to a place where you once again believe. But in a peculiar way, if you really know the gospel and have chosen to reject it anyway, that’s not our problem. That’s your problem.
Meanwhile, the people out there who hate sites like this -- the SGM defenders in particular -- will be handed new ammunition for their argument that those who object to SGM are evil. “Look,” they will say. “That poor guy became even more cemented in his atheism, because he was discouraged from going to an SGM church plant with his theologically debating buddy. What a shame -- he could have heard the real and true SGM gospel if only he hadn’t been turned off by those nasty SGM survivors!”
In the end, although you say words of encouragement and pat us on the back for our (perceived) skepticism and negativity, this conversation will devolve into a platform to promote doubt and disbelief…and will end up having the opposite effect, making people who want to shut down the SGM debate feel like they have gained a point for their side.
Sigh.
Eagle, my heart goes out to you for the wretched hopelessness that you have to feel, having rejected the Lord Jesus and His truth after knowing them. I’m sorry for whatever caused that to happen. I would love to see you come back around and not declare yourself an atheist any more.
But I’m not going to take the bait, not going to discuss your lack of belief in God. If you’re truly happy that this conversation is still happening, and if you’d truly want it to continue, then just admit the truth, that you have rejected God not because of the bad behavior of any particular church, but because you…just…don’t want to believe any longer.
:-(
July 24th, 2012 at 12:37 am
For anyone interested, the July Newsletter at SymboulosMinistries.org has been posted.
July 24th, 2012 at 12:40 am
Hmm…Kris and Eagle: You both have valid and reasonable statements but I think there might be something missing-in-translation, or some sort of miscommunication.
It reads to me as if Eagle, for whatever reason, is having a crisis of faith and in the midst of this crisis has discovered SGM through an acquaintance. Sounds like Eagle is mentally trying to balance things out with their beliefs, pros and cons, pluses and minuses, Truth and falsehood. What he/she has learned seems to fit on the ‘con’ side of things, as Eagle directly said “I don’t know what I am today. I tell others I am agnostic…SGM is a cancer to Christianity, as there are healthier churches out there”.
Regardless of her/his personal beliefs, the observation (I hate that word) that SGM perpetuates an unhealthy subsystem of Christianity, or “brand” if you will, is unfortunately true. I and many others have lived through the practice, implications and expectations of the brand, and I do see it as ‘a gospel’ that drives away those who would be receptive to The Gospel. Or, because “a gospel” is presented as The Gospel, those who don’t accept the lower-case one assume that the capitalised one is just the same or similar… and thus avoid everything to do with The Gospel. I think that may be what Eagle was getting at when they said “…validates atheism.”
Kris, I understand your concerns with the blog-- supposed to be about SGM — turning into a forum for theological debate. It isn’t the place; there’s a whole world of debate forums out there on the web. And yes, of course those in pro-SGM court will say A-HA! As if the Survivors site contributed to a person’s doubt/disbelief. I just really don’t see that kind of confrontational, let’s-argue-about-the-problem-of-evil type of stance in Eagle’s post. His/her last sentence about wishing that others who questioned/doubted were around “When I was in Christianity” may just reflect that Eagle wishes they had someone to voice their doubts and concerns to, when they first started doubting and before their faith “fell apart”.
Back on topic..Thanks for all you do running this site. The AOR “report” was, unfortunately, pretty much as expected. Sad. On to Louisville…
July 24th, 2012 at 12:58 am
I understand both Kris and Eagle. All I can say about one who has been ‘a christian’, and then claims to be agnostic, is that it seems you practiced religion, but not a relationship. Once you “know” someone, no one can convince you they do not exist! There are many things I can say I do not knwo, and that I do not understand..and many things I will say I do not even care to understand, but I DO KNOW this for sure: Jesus is my Savior, and He is my Strength! Without Him, it would have been impossible for me to have made it though all that I have. You all only know the saga from the time I became a “Christian”, you are not even aware of all I went through before I even met our Lord! Yet, before I even knew Him, I sensed His Protection..It is so totally beyond me, and no one, NO ONE will EVER convince me differently! Eagle, my prayer is that you continue to explore, and to seek Him..He DOES answer. It is not about ‘saying the right things’, or ‘doing the right things’, or even ‘being in the right places’..It is an intimate relationship that is exactly that-intimate! Once you are face to face with you God, and recognize Jesus as your Savior, well it would be as silly as someone trying to convince you the sky is not blue, and the wind does not blow, and the rain is not wet! It doesn’t matter what men do ‘for the sake of religion’, or anything else, for I know Jesus loves me, and He is there to guide me. I pray you come to know Him as intimately as I do-it is magnificent!
July 24th, 2012 at 1:32 am
SomewhereInTime #20,
I know the conversation has more or less moved on but I just wanted to say thank you for your kind words a week ago. Like you suggested, I had actually already started the process of going back and reading through the Bible (and some other books from various viewpoints) with as fresh a view as I can, just so I can at least try to give it a fair, clean consideration, and I’m in the middle of that now. I agree, legalism (or lots of rules and control over others) really is a burden and can result in spiritual abuse or worse that takes a long time to heal. I don’t know what/if I might end up believing after all the study (I’m not convinced yet) :) but just wanted to say that I appreciated your words and thank you for taking the time to write it.
Kris, not trying to take away from your point about atheism-Christianity debates #206 by my post here… I agree, this blog probably isn’t the place for those debates. Your comment just reminded me that I had never thanked SomewhereInTime for the response. And anyone who says that this site encourages atheism is kinda missing the point. It was the experiences in my life spent in SGM’s controlling system and other parts of conservative Christianity that turned me away from it — not this blog. The blog wouldn’t be here otherwise. You guys actually helped show me that there might be other versions of Christianity that are actually good! (Again, not convinced yet and honestly kinda hope I never am — I do feel like I’ve had enough of it for my lifetime.)
July 24th, 2012 at 1:51 am
Steve240
Josh reads the blogs. He also reacts to them at times, both in his sermons and social media. In them, he can emphasize that they no longer do things they have been accused of.
One thing Josh did in his latest sermon, was to stop preaching and suddenly begin to exhort men in the room who are abusing their wives or children. He soberly told them to stop. I found that more than interesting. I seems to be Josh’s way to deal with the continued accusations of abuse on the blogs.
Fact is, I don’t believe Josh is personally responsible for abuses but, since some of it has happened at CLC, on his watch, he carries some culpability.
I don’t think we will be hearing any more open apologies from CLC pastors. It’s pretty clear to me that they believe the ‘wost offenders’ have migrated south. I may not agree with them on that but, I do think Team CLC has moved-on and have no plans to revisit the past.
So, aside from seriously chastising those who participate in public, “angry’ anonymous, internet conversations, Josh also wanted everyone to know that he doesn’t condone abusing wives or children.
To me, the mode and manner of communication seems to indicate that Josh (speaking for the pastoral team) is not interested in clearly, transparently addressing the abuses of the past.
That would answer at least some of the questions being posed on this blog.
July 24th, 2012 at 4:59 am
Kris…
You are misconstruing me. I am not trying to drag anyone into a debate. Nor am I asking for pity. Nor am I considering attending a SGM church.
All I am saying is that these blogs serve as a good warning to an unhealthy church system. I do have some Christian freinds that I respect, and their churches don’t have some of the problems written about here.
All I am saying is that it’s good that things are discussed here before some unwitting soul gets sucked in by the system and hammered. SGM is not the only authoerterian church out there…there are quite a few.
In closing I think you guys do a good job discussing SGM. I appreciate the honesty and openness that exists here and other blogs. And BTW…lest you think I’m a troll I’m a regular at Wartburg and Internet Monk. Which if you check Internet Monk the other day discussed SGM.
July 24th, 2012 at 7:54 am
Slam Dunk, Kris!
July 24th, 2012 at 8:59 am
Persona --
I dont think CLC can address the abuses of the past. At least not any more than Josh has already done.
Josh has apologized on at least four occasions for the way CLC conducted business. Most of it under CJ’s watch but when Josh took over he didn’t make too many changes so the system motored on under auto-pilot.
When the SGM debacle made the poor behavior/leadership plain to everyone, Josh stepped up and apologized. He called a spade a spade and said what CJ has never been able to do…”I was wrong”.
You can’t spend the rest of your life making up for mistakes in the past. You set things up so it doesn’t happen again and move on. Could CLC privately go to some of those abused most severely? Yes. Should CLC make a big show of going back to Kerrin and ExCLCMom and Larry and many others and do a big show of how sorry they are? No. If they did would it make up for the abuse? No, nothing ever will. (I have yet to fully comprehend what Joel meant when God said, “I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten”.)
The best thing now is to lead in a manner that is not abusive, that involves the congregation, and seeks to avoid the lording and pressure that CJ instilled in the congregation.
As for dealing with past wrongs, I am still looking for the contrite heart in the Fairfax boys. They pulled a Nixon. “Mistakes were made.” That’s about all they have confessed to and no apologies have been communicated. They are hoping they can skate through this whole thing without having to admist/confess any particulars. But they are still changing and an apology may still be in the offing. They hope the change will make a confession/apology superfluous. (Yes, they apologized once…”in these two situations”…but no general, overall apology for control, lording, pressure, nor any of the behaviors CLC admitted to and apologized for.
Ditto, Ashburn, what little exists of them. Poor behavior from the man in charge who threw in with an adulterer has never been acknowledged. No dealing with past issues for him. Fortunately all the real people have left so no one who remains is looking for an apology.
Chesapeake appears to have started on that road, as least from one pastor who has integrity.
I don’t know what it is about these SGM folks. The indoctrination process makes them blind to their own pride.
But to close this down, CLC can’t go back and make things right, all they can do is apologize and promise not to do that nor allow that in the future. All the kings horses and all the kings men, couldn’t put Humpty together again.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:22 am
It seems to me that there is something inherently troll-like in the very act of entering into a conversation with those of a Christian persuasion with the declaration that one is an atheist.
I’ve been around the internet for a long time, and I’ve never witnessed a self-proclaimed atheist participate in a Christian forum for any length of time and -- in the end -- exhibit anything even resembling open-mindedness. Yet he knows very well that making such a declaration to Christians is like putting a coin in a vending machine. Christians will be compelled to enter into dialog with the atheist, will be compelled to be “nice” and do their best to seem open and accepting of him, not judgmental and mean like the Christians whom the atheist claims turned him off to Christianity.
I just don’t like games like that. Eagle, I don’t mean to pick on you if you were honestly trying to express your appreciation for the site. I’m grateful for the positive feedback. But I do find it interesting that you think it was necessary to mention your atheism at all.
In my experience, the atheist feels the need to declare his atheism to Christians because he gets his kicks out of seeing the way idiot Christians can be manipulated into engaging with him. The atheist is compelled to tell people he’s an atheist because he is seeking reassurance that he is intellectually superior to those who believe in God.
And I don’t play those games here.
I think as Christians, we ought not to be tricked into letting ourselves get manipulated by people pretending to be interested in our perspective, when all the while what they want to do is make themselves feel better about their embrace of darkness through arguing and debating more people to their perspective. I also think that we have the perfect right (and even a duty) to be offended by anyone arrogant enough and foolish enough to have the nerve to say that God does not exist. I’m sorry they feel that way. I’m grieved for whatever tragic offenses led them down that path.
But ultimately, one day, they are going to face this God at whom they so readily thumb their noses now, and it’s not going to be a good day for them. If we Christians truly believe this, then we are irresponsible fools for not saying so. In the end, we are not showing the atheist any love whatsoever by our calm acceptance of what they say. All we are doing is trying to show off to the world how smart and open-minded we are…and that, my friends, is wrong.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:43 am
Eagle said he/she was agnostic but never used the word atheist. In my experience agnostics are respectful of the bounds of religious organization, whereas Internet atheists typicaly aren’t.
Christians in general don’t know what to do with people who were gung-ho and then became agnostic. The new Reformed are leaving a long trail of such people. I think Eagle was saying that if more people stood up and pointed out the problems that it’d save a lot of people grief.
July 24th, 2012 at 10:34 am
Eagle,
I am so glad you came by to encourage Kris and those of us who share here. Thank you. I feel much the same way in that I wish there were sites like this when I was at Cov Fel! It would have helped me to process the insanity so much better. I am glad this site has helped you as it has me.
Kris,
I know you aren’t looking for a cheerleader or a rah rah with this main post. That is why I have held back but I just have to say how grateful I am that God has been using you here. I understand that you may be completely burned out from the SGM double talk, the SGM insanity and the other heartache that comes along with what you are doing. And I understand if you just need to wash your hands and walk away. (Not that you said anything to that effect, but if you do, it would be understandable.)
I just wanted to tell you what an impact this site has had on my life and the healing God has done in me through it.
Thank you,
Stunned
July 24th, 2012 at 10:40 am
Kris, you’ve been around the block a few times. I just learned something new from you.
I guess it would be like a Christian posting on an agnostic or atheist board and stating he’s a Christian and agrees that some agnostic/atheistic organizations are damaging to the atheist cause, while others seem genuine enough. The agnostic/atheists there would probably view his comments as possible bait also.
The bottom line is that in the end, our decision to accept Christ’s sacrifice for our sins, does not hinge on how people in a cult parading as Christianity treat us. Christianity is not a people-pleasing faith, but a God honoring one.
As Christians our foundation must be in God’s Word through faith (trust) in Christ alone. No man as mediator, and no man serving as an effective blockade. So that no person claiming to be agnostic or atheist can blame any Christian, so-called or genuine with faults, for his own lack of faith in God.
In essence an agnostic/atheist theoretically would seemingly have little interest in discerning this matter unless he has other motives.
In the end God knows, but it’s good Kris brought the question to light and respectfully so in honesty. In the past, I’ve seen many agnostic/atheists jump into Christian discussions (here and elsewhere) and drift threads toward their reasons for unbelief -- which usually devolve into ridicule of the intellectual capacities of Christians.
July 24th, 2012 at 10:58 am
Patricia said,
Exactly.
I’m not saying that Eagle had any intention of “going there,” but again, I just don’t see any need for the introduction of one’s atheism or agnosticism into a conversation with Christians. In my experience, when that topic arises, the discussion quickly devolves into A) the Christians doing backflips to show how loving and accepting they are of the atheist/agnostic, how different they are from the mean and condemning Christians whom the atheist/agnostic (at least somewhat) blames for his atheism/agnosticism; and B) the atheist/agnostic then gaining a platform to promote his/her beliefs (or supposed lack thereof, although of course atheism/agnosticism is its own faith, really).
Nothing grosses me out more than the Christian who prides himself (or herself) in his/her “intellectual openness,” who might jump in and tell the atheist/agnostic how much he/she welcomes the input of the atheist/agnostic. I think it’s offensive to God for a Christian to put his/her own “intellectualism” ahead of being honest about what his/her faith says about the deliberate unbeliever, the unbeliever who (supposedly) once knew the truth but has now rejected it.
What can such a person even give us, ultimately? Doesn’t the Bible say the person who claims there is no God is in darkness? Doesn’t the Bible call this person a fool?
Why would we be so eager to open ourselves up to fools?
I think Christians who do this have a misplaced pride in their own (perceived) academic minds, their own (perceived) intellectual accomplishments. It’s more important to them to prove their own open-mindedness rather than stand for what the Bible actually says about the individual who is purposefully turning his/her back on what Jesus did.
[EDITED TO ADD - This comment was not in response to anyone in particular who has commented. I got an email notifying me of Patricia's comment because it was stuck in the moderation queue, and I wrote this without reading everything else that had been posted.]
July 24th, 2012 at 11:00 am
After the penalties handed down to Penn State yesterday, just think what would happen if SGM was a college or university?
Pride and arrogance don’t fare to well in the real world. Must be nice to be surronded by morons playing the shell game.
July 24th, 2012 at 11:25 am
XYZ,
You are welcome. Again, it’s a new and incredible experience to meet the living God in the Bible then it is to meet the fake one that many (not all) in SG presented to you. Pray to the Lord himself to open your eyes to what He is saying to you. Not that it is preached much in SG, but you CAN have a real and personal relationship with Jesus. He will speak to you through the Holy Spirit.
July 24th, 2012 at 12:30 pm
A few minutes ago a story in the press spoke about a Philadelphia area Monsignor who received 3-6 years in prison for covering up sex abuse of children by priests under his supervision. Having read this blog for quite awhile I am aware of the many instances of similar behavior in our churches. I am saddened that the alleged similar behavior by SGM leadership has been allowed to slip under the bed so to speak, and no one has been called out for it. There should have been an accounting for this behavior somewhere. I remain puzzled by this.
July 24th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
“Grain of Salt” said,
You and me both!
I think there are many factors at work that have thus far offered SGM-the-organization a level of protection from similar legal consequences. The biggest thing is the reluctance that many victims and their families feel about taking on such a fight. Particularly in light of how the rest of the Reformed Christian world has responded to the investigation of CJ, it can feel like we must be the crazy ones. (Matter of fact, the AoR report essentially declared that SGM’s victims are equally as wrong as SGM’s leadership.)
Many victims also lack the requisite paper trail. I know that when I have interacted with people who shared their stories privately, things were so often kept deliberately vague, to where I could only assess these people’s claims in terms of my gut feelings. It seemed logical to me to believe them. But that’s not enough in a court of law.
Maybe someday someone (or a group of someones) somewhere will band together and get the legal vindication they ought to have gotten years ago. Although I’m no lawyer, it strikes me that there are remarkable similarities between the way SGM leaders treated situations of abuse and the way the Penn State and Catholic Church scandals were mishandled.
July 24th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
It would be difficult but not impossible for a case to move forward.
I guess the questions you would have to start off with is are you going after SGM or are you going after individual pastors?
Im kinda curious to see what people think.
July 24th, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Another Joe -
This is another piece of what would make legal action against SGM so daunting a prospect.
It’s my belief that SGM-the-organization, through the likes of CJ and his “apostles,” systematically propagated ideas to pastors about the all-sufficiency of the “local church,” and how the pastors wielded the highest authority in all situations and ought to weigh in on all members’ problems and have their assessments accepted and humbly submitted to. I also believe that it was definitely communicated to SGM pastors, both by example and through direct instruction, that there was no theological room for victimhood, and that if someone continued to point out another person’s sin, he was automatically in the wrong for not embracing his own “worst sinner” status first.
In the legal world, though, I don’t know how easily any of this could be proven. It had to have been conveyed (taught) to pastors at least somewhat systematically, for so many otherwise decent men from various locations around the country to have vacated complete common sense in situations as heinous as child sex abuse. Yet did SGM leave any sort of a paper trail?
It’s hard to say.
And unfortunately, although SGM can now proudly point any questioner to the AoR report as some sort of evidence of their openness to being evaluated by outsiders, the AoR folks did little to pursue the truth of what really happened in these situations.
July 24th, 2012 at 1:54 pm
It would seem to me that when allegations are publicly voiced without affirmation (that is, no names), as it should be in public fora, that there must be someone “driving the ship”. That is to say, the Commanding Officer is always responsible for anything that happens under his command. Using this analogy, those individuals “in command”, are to be held individually responsible for the behavior of his/her priests, pastors, or whomever allegedly perpetrated these acts over the years. There doesn’t seem to be an avenue of approach for SGM to be held liable. Make yojur own conclusions about just who that might be.
July 24th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Kris 223
To legally create a paper trail in an abuse case isn’t very difficult. You just need to write down about when abuse happened and who did it. You can also photograph bruises, and gather witness accounts. But is usually not too hard to make a case that abuse or neglect happened.
Conversely, one of the things I noticed at CLC, was that even when the woman presented with evident bruises, even dislocated bones, from beatings at the hands of an abusive, adulterous spouse, the husband received what resembles a free pass, by the pastor.
A key feature in a scenario like this was if the couple was not a part of the glitterati, someone highly cherished and socially important, they received very little attention or follow-up. So, unless they involved secular authorities, their husbands were left to go their merry way.
I never understood how pastors could excuse abusive behavior and even outright lies, by perpetrators. For some reason, at times, pastors would even aid wretched husbands in their deceitfulness and believe them rather than their victims.
Even more troubling is thusfar, we have no asurety that those practices have dramatically changed at CLC. Can anyone report that, behind the scenes, the CLC counseling team automatically involves social services in cases of abuse? Is anyone aware of cases where men had more than their hand slapped for abusive behavior? Do they do more than call them out during Sunday sermons?
July 24th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
Last week our kids were listening to some Life Lessons Odyssey CD’s. One of the stories had a ding dong scripture fazor. When someone said something against the Bible the scripture fazor would go off and quote a scripture.
As I was listening to the CD I just thought what it would be like to listen to CJ with my scripture fazor. I didn’t sin, no really I didn’t. Buzz, buzz, buzz. Leviticus 19:11 You shall not steal, neither deal falsely, niether lie one to another.
I wish I woulda had a scripture fazor when I went to my old SGM church.
July 24th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Anyone
Ray Ortland -- at The Gospel Coalition has a post about “The Religiously Wounded.”
He says…
“Or at least, the beginning of the end. A new era of shalom must start somewhere. The religiously-wounded must have somewhere to go, some place where they will be safe from attack, where they can heal through the gospel and live again.”
Thought -- after his love affair with -- SGM -- Act 29 -- and the rest of the YRR
Someone here might have a few words for him --
And -- before he removes my comment -- like he has done in the past. ;-)
July 24th, 2012 at 4:38 pm
A lawsuit against SGM, Inc for the behavior of a non-SGM, Inc employee, such as the pastor of a SGM church, would be impossible to win. Recent attempts in Calvary Chapel failed due to the “agency” concept. The 2006 member church agreement used the perfect language to ensure that the Inc was legally not responsible for the actions of the pastors. It actually contains the word “agency”, and adds an “autonomous” cherry on top for good measure.
July 24th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Jim
My point exactly. So, that leaves the CO (monsignor et al) to be brought to justice and accountability for the alleged actions of those under him/her. QED
July 24th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
Grain of salt,
Comment #222, “There should have been an accounting for this behavior somewhere.”
There will be, on that day.
Also, there is somewhat of a paper trail. Just compare Fairfax’s Family meeting (possibly on their website, from July 2011) to the accounts given by the victim’s families on this blog, all out of Fairfax. Noel’s Story, Wallace’s Story and Taylor’s Story. You could find them in the “search” box above.
Can’t miss that Family meeting, it’s the one where the Sr. Pastor, M.Mullery opens the meeting with a joke, knowing they were going to discuss child sex abuse. That should give you an indication of where he was headed and the intention of the meeting.
July 24th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
That is why the polity structure that CJ and Co. are promoting is insidious! All the churches would be autonomous, which means SGM can’t be held “legally” accountable for anything at the local level. YET, SGM wants the local churches to be spiritually submitted to them and oversee what they do. EXCUSE ME! I think lawyers are writing the polity papers. Besides, this is no different than what they have been doing for the past 20 years or so.
July 24th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Bridget
You are spot on.
July 24th, 2012 at 8:51 pm
Jim,
Has the ruling already happened in the Calvary Chapel case?
July 24th, 2012 at 8:52 pm
I am a Christian, but having been through some very wounding experiences in cult-like churches, I have seen friends drift into agnosticism and atheism. I grieve over this, but I don’t judge them for this. I understand what it’s like to feel very confused and to wonder if EVERYTHING is a lie, even God’s existence. Although these friends will start a discussion saying that they’re an atheist or agnostic, I’ve found that if I give them space to talk and share their hearts, they actually move closer towards a belief in God. Preaching at them sends them scurrying far, far away. I think prayer, time and unconditional love help the most.
Anyways, I don’t know Eagle’s heart, but I don’t think he was being a troll. (I’ve read his comments on WW before.) Think about it-- in most forums, if we are not part of the majority group but want to share some info, we’ll usually state a disclaimer: “I am not a Christian, but…..” “I am not a homeschooling mom, but….” etc.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:18 pm
What I’m about to say is primarily for anyone currently attending an SGM church:
Regarding the child abuse issue, pedophiles favor any organization that tends to have blind followers fearful of questioning a leader. Abuse occurs more readily in these settings.
It’s sad that most parents think this type of thing could never happen to their child as it’s such a detestable thing to consider, but for what it’s worth….anyone attending an SGM church needs to be vigilant in watching his or her children in home group or other settings. If the unthinkable ever happens, then keeping records of doctor visits, recordings of conversations with pastors, and getting a qualified therapist involved -- are all musts in my view.
Sadly, children are sometimes required to testify against an abuser and they are not always believed. But if a parent has written documentation from a doctor, a therapist and recordings of conversations, it can go along way.
My heart goes out to the families who have been ill affected. It is very painful to see such serious violations ignored. I really do hope that people make use of good therapists, hopefully Christian, in these situations to assist with healing. Childhood sexual abuse requires the help of a qualified therapist educated in the trauma and PTSD that can result. Sadly, most pastors are not trained in this. Good Biblically grounded pastors (outside the SGM circus) can be a wonderful support by showing compassion and praying with the families.
Frankly, I think it is very sad that more SGM pastors did not willingly step down from their positions and leave SGM upon realizing how much abuse has taken place in the organization. Employment is hard now, but any true Christian pastor who has been preaching on God’s sovereignty ought to be able to put those words into the action of doing what is right in God’s sight.
July 24th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
Jim, the legalese is there to intimidate and while it may place more hoops to jump through, if a parent has contacted the proper authorities and obtained supportive documentation then action can and should be taken.
I intensely dislike any feeling of helplessness when it comes to this issue. The media was all over the men going against Penn State, but their dogged determination to pursue justice won.
Is the Lord’s arm so short that He cannot defend on of these little ones? I dare say not!
July 24th, 2012 at 11:13 pm
AMEN!! :Approve:
July 25th, 2012 at 7:18 am
Kris,
In the idaho case, the judge ruled that CCCM (the mothership) and CCOF (the Inc) could not be held responsible for the actions of the member churches involved in the suit.
July 25th, 2012 at 7:27 am
There is a Facebook page that has some helpful articles dealing with sex abuse.
It’s called G.R.A.C.E. Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment.
Patricia,
#237 -- Great points, all of them. Good therapists can make all the difference, our child is still alive because of their help. Sadly, one of the first things some victims must unpackage are the many years that SGM preached against counseling. The “guilt” of seeking out professional help has to be tackled first.
July 25th, 2012 at 8:39 am
Happymom brings up the salient point in this discussion.
The true indictment of SGM and the churches is their poor response to the sexual assaults. Unfortunately, most of the assaults occurred outside of the church building. Unlike Sandusky, who was an employee of the university and assaulted children on university property and inside university facilities, most of the incidents here happened off church property and the pedophiles were not church employees.
This would make a lawsuit all that more difficult. The churches real problems were in how they counseled people (or in this case failed to counsel people).
But then the “you have sin so you are equally to blame” approach to ALL PROBLEMS is a issue with more than just sexual abuse cases in SGM.
July 25th, 2012 at 9:57 am
intheNICKoftime said,
Yep!
I’d say this succinctly sums up what happened in just about every story of spiritual abuse within SGM.
Anytime conflict arose, members were expected to submit to their leaders’ (pastors’) assessment of the situation, which typically meant agreeing with their pastors about how their own sinfulness contributed to whatever conflict they were facing.
So, the abused wife who went to a pastor for help in her marriage was directed to think about how she might be provoking the abuse…how she might need to submit more in order to avoid abuse…what she might have done to weaken her marriage…
The member who comes to his pastor to express concern over, say, the way church leaders are handling finances will be pointed back to his own sinfulness and will be told that to question leaders is to exhibit the sin of pride. Sure, maybe the pastor will (with his new SGM training to appear open-minded) will initially thank the member for sharing his concerns. But the end result will be the same -- “You need to look first at your own sinfulness, and when you are 100% without sin yourself [which of course is impossible], then you can critique our leadership decisions.”
The parents whose child was molested by another church member are quickly directed away from pursuing justice through the legal system and are instead told that their desire for justice is a symptom of their own sinful lack of forgiveness…
And then, members who lock horns with their pastors and refuse to follow their pastors’ counsel are guilty of the sin of not submitting to their authorities…
Historically, within SGM, it’s always been about getting members to look ever more inward so that they can magnify their own sinfulness and thereby ignore the wrong done by everyone else, whether that’s an abusive spouse, a pedophile, or a power-hungry pastor. There’s absolutely no room (in SGM pastors’ thinking) for anyone to be just a plain old straight-up victim.
While some of this “tough love” is not necessarily wrong in some situations -- how many of us can easily think of people who would benefit by being told to quit blaming others for their problems? -- the reality is that there actually are plenty of situations where one party’s contributions to a conflict are far greater than the other party’s contributions. SGM pastors routinely missed the boat in cases of abuse because they were trained to apply their “tough love” you-must-always-be-the-worst-sinner-you-know approach in a completely wooden fashion, with no room for variation or common sense.
Another piece of the problem is SGM’s belief that the “local church” must provide the final answer and the final authority for every situation. That’s why certain pastors were so reluctant to involve the justice system in cases of abuse. They believed on a spiritual level that their own authority trumped anything that could be provided by the cops or social services.
Then there’s also the fact that SGM has long believed and taught that the “local church” is an essential part of a person’s sanctification, which is an inseparable part of a person’s salvation…to the point where ultimately, if a person becomes separated from his local church, he very well may not be saved anymore. SGM leaders can dance around that teaching and try to parse it and try to qualify it, but if you really dig and press, and really examine the principles laid out in various messages through the years, as well as in books like CJ Mahaney’s Why Small Groups, SGMers are taught that their participation in their SGM church, along with their continued submission to their SGM leaders, is a key aspect of their sanctification…and if they do not exhibit sanctification, then they probably are not saved.
So, in a situation where child abuse has occurred, it is far more of a priority to the pastor to keep everyone within the confines of the “local church” rather than open things up to the justice system and run the risk of having people submit to a different authority…and/or be removed from the sanctifying “local church” environment, which, again, is crucial to the person’s right standing with God.
I just realized that this comment is something of an abbreviated rehash of this post: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/09/02/why-sovereign-grace-ministries-doesnt-like-victims/ I know I’ve already linked to the Why Sovereign Grace Ministries Doesn’t Like Victims post recently, but I think it offers a great summary of the weird mindset -- the mindset that seems so incredibly incomprehensible to the SGM outsider -- that was at work in many of the mishandled situations.
July 25th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Kris 243
Good job! Yours is a very concise summary of the spiral of control used by many SGM Pastors.
I think some SGM pastors should return to their former careers and leave guidance and counseling to others more gifted and trained.
July 25th, 2012 at 2:44 pm
SGM leadership = (Where’s the throw-up emoticon?)
Through their silence they’re guilty of criminal negligence and some have served as accomplices in crime. They will one day answer to God for these little ones they’ve allowed to suffer and those who will no doubt follow given the direction this is going.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
I haven’t posted here in a long time, and I’ve been reading periodically. I haven’t read all the comments in this post, so forgive me if I’m bringing up something that has already been discussed. Kris, I think I can understand your waning interest in SGM, but I have to admit that the lack of new posts since early June came across to me like waning interest in us, the Survivors. To come back and see no new posts week after week made me wonder if this blog was on its last legs, limping along on reader comments, rather than the vibrant exchange I was drawn to when I first came here about a year ago. It was the freshness of this blog, the consistent new posts that generated volumes of comments, that helped me and my family get through leaving our SGM church. There is nothing else out there that even comes close to providing the community and support I have found here. This blog is one in a million. As, Lord willing, more and more people have the scales dropped from their eyes and leave their SGM churches, they will need the supportive, loving community found here. Kris, please don’t grow weary in doing well. Please put up a post or highlight a reader comment every week or so, or bring back something from the archives…just something so that the newcomers to this site find the robust dialog and fellowship that have helped countless of us find True freedom outside SGM.
July 25th, 2012 at 3:57 pm
CoBro,
Thanks for your encouragement. I really appreciate it.
I’m going to try to do a better job of keeping posts current.