Redeemer Church of Charlottesville VA First to Leave Sovereign Grace Ministries
From Brent Detwiler’s site comes the following (you can access his original, which contains his commentary on the separation, here):
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The following joint statement was sent out yesterday to all the SGM pastors.
July 24, 2012
A Joint Statement: Redeemer Church of Charlottesville, VA and Sovereign Grace Ministries
We want to let you know that Redeemer Church of Charlottesville has decided to end their association with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Though saddened by this news, we are supportive of their decision. We are very grateful for the humble and careful way they have worked through this and the peaceable and respectful way we have been able to discuss our differences. But mostly, we are grateful for the long relationship we have had with Keith Breault. He continues to be a man whom we love and respect. We wish him, his leadership team, and Redeemer Church great blessings and success in the future. Though separating in formal association, we are not separated in mutual affection, mutual respect, and mutual passion to see God glorified through gospel-centered local churches.
Below is a letter from Keith explaining this separation from their perspective.
##
I’m writing on behalf of Redeemer Church of Charlottesville to inform you that on July 9th we separated from SGM.
As you can imagine, this decision was difficult for every member of our leadership team and for many in our church — who have a long history with SGM. We have enjoyed a rich partnership with SGM and thank God for the ways in which we have been trained, strengthened and fed through this wonderful group of believers. The relationships we’ve forged within SGM over the years are some of the dearest we possess, and we hope changing our affiliation won’t alter the deep fellowship God has wrought and nurtured.
Over the past year, we have been watching events unfold while simultaneously planting this new church in Charlottesville. Naturally, we have been evaluating SGM’s leadership in light of how it corresponds with our own priorities and values. “Consistent divergence” describes the dynamic between SGM’s leadership and our own instincts and convictions. We love the people of SGM and we love the leaders of SGM, but differences in some key areas make peaceful departure our best option.
This decision and its rationale were expressed in detail to SGM by letter on July 9, with our commitment to uphold respect and goodwill. In phone calls the following day with C.J. Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and Mickey Connolly — and a conference call Thursday between Mickey and our leadership team — we exchanged expressions of mutual encouragement and respect for our varied perspectives. We also exchanged commitments to conduct this transition peaceably, with the Gospel in mind, wishing each other maximum joy and fruitfulness as we all continue to follow Jesus.
Thank you for your friendship and support throughout our years of SGM partnership. We invite your prayers as we continue spreading the Gospel in Charlottesville.
With our brotherly love, in Christ
Keith Breault
August 13th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Shifting gears here but, has anyone heard about Joel Harris (Josh’s brother) getting into SBTS? Josh tweeted that this week. I wonder how that will effect Joshua’s relationship with SGM and SBTS?
August 13th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
@Persona #201 -- So maybe he could become an intern at CJ’s church plant. :Wink:
I really can’t see how that would have any bearing on Josh’s relationship with CJ/SGM/SBTS or anything else.
August 13th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
gareth….
I certainly agree that when a person asks you to desist, it is basic good manners to respect their boundaries. ( obviously there are exceptions to this such as when they are engaging in criminal actions and you are intervening, or something like that). I also think Bridget hit the nail on the head that Brent just sees this as moral sin with CJ and crew, and does not appear to recognize the entire shepherding error teachings that were promoted for 30 years, as being wrong, and his own apostleship as often behaving sinfully.
But I thought the interchange with this Alicia person was a joke. I mean obviously what she wanted was to give him a piece of her mind and not allow him to respond back to her rant. Come on, really. If all she wants is no more emails, you just click the “junk” label at the top and you will never get another email in your inbox from this addy again. But she didn’t want to delete him from the acceptable contacts list, she WANTED TO CONTACT HIM so she could chew him out. She’s just asking for a reply.
If you don’t want to talk to a stalker, you don’t look at their name on the phone ID and pick up the phone to tell them how much you want them to never call you again and why. What game are we playing here? Alicia didn’t want no contact, what she wanted was one way contact where she could tell Brent off. I mean really. Does she not know how to set up her inbox so she won’t get his letters? I am a computer moron myself and even I know that. She didn’t want no Brent emails, she wanted to fling her opinion at him.
What a joke. The ones who want no contact with Brent just don’t answer him, period, nothing.
August 13th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
How is Brent’s attitude toward Alicia any different from Mickey’s approach to CrossWay? From what I can tell, they’re both saying, “I know what’s best for you, you poor brainless soul.”
I suppose he doesn’t care because he thinks this is all part of a high calling on his life, but Brent keeps providing more and more fodder for the lawsuits that are sure to follow this whole mess. If nothing else, his response to Alicia borders on harrassment and is good grounds for an injunction or a TRO at least.
August 13th, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Whirlwind 202
Connections are everything in SGM world.
And, due to their secrecy, public announcements such as these are really the only thing we have to go on, unless of course, Brent publishes private emails.
The placement of Joshua’s brother could explain why Joshua remains chummy with Al Mohler and one reason he has gone to such great lengths to cover over his offense with CJ et al.
The thing I don’t understand is why Joel would want to study at SBTS when there are lots of other seminaries and the Harris family are not Baptists.
August 13th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
FYI: Grace Community Church (Sarasota/Bradenton) has disappeared from the list of churches on the SGM website. Their website used to say “We are a local Sovereign Grace Ministries church in the Sarasota/Bradenton area of Florida.” Now it says “We are a non-denominational church in the Sarasota/Bradenton area of Florida.” http://www.gccnet.org/#/welcome
August 13th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
Moniker -- correct. They decided to leave the fold around the same time the Virginia church did. Very brave and bold move of the pastor to do so. They are a very small, yet thriving body. Their established friendships with the SGM churches in Florida remain, yet they are no longer a part of SGM.
August 13th, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Patrick, thank you for the clarification on Grace. My husband just noticed the same thing tonight and read the same thing out loud, wonderfing what changed. Do you know or does anyone know if they sent SGM formal notice? I’m assuming they did privately.
August 13th, 2012 at 11:00 pm
http://web.archive.org/web/20100920231711/http://www.gccnet.org/
Here’s an archived version of their home page from 2010, it says
“Welcome to the Grace Community Church website. We are a local Sovereign Grace Ministries church in the Sarasota/Bradenton area of Florida.
There ya go, confirmed
August 14th, 2012 at 5:50 am
re: FSGP
When we know just why CJ is promoted by his little coterie, I think we will understand the core dynamics to this whole thing. . .
August 14th, 2012 at 6:06 am
Wiser……
I do not know how the Bradenton church officially gave notice, but I do know how that decision was finally made. All the Florida churches agreed to sign the ‘letter’ the Ken Maresco created giving a mandate to CJ, SGM (the Empire of Dirt), and Crew. They all signed it on the Monday before EOD (Empire of Dirt) announce on a Thursday that they made an official decision to stand by and keep CJ. The next day most of the Florida church pastors wanted out that following weekend……but because they signed the letter they decided to let the process of the parameters of that letter play out, giving them basically time to leave. Luan forgot to sign the letter, or just didn’t think he needed to, thus giving the Bradenton church a quicker exit.
All that to say……a handful of the Florida churches are on their way out, just giving EOD time to process the ‘letter’ they signed. Also, some of the pastors had family meetings the Sunday before EOD announced CJ to stay, and in those family meetings described the ‘letter’s intent. So, it would have been a shock to the members of these churches that the following week they were out of EOD. Which I agree could have caused some confusion.
August 14th, 2012 at 7:21 am
callan said,
I’ve thought about this for a long time. Barring some sort of inter-organization Brent Detwiler figure publishing emails and blowing the lid off of things, we’ll probably never see definitive proof of what really went on to make CJ gain so much influence so quickly with the Reformed Big Dogs. But I think we can make some educated guesses, based upon what we do know.
A key clue, of course, is CJ’s (and/or SGM’s?) donations to the SBTS. CJ gave something over $100,000 to the SBTS over the span of just a couple of years. We know this because his name appeared on a list of donors (a list put out by SBTS with its official documents), and within just a year’s time, CJ moved from one category on the list to a higher threshold (of donors who gave more than $100k).
Some may argue that donations like this are something of a formality, a social nicety among big-name leaders, a sort of “one hand washes the other” kind of thing. I don’t know if SGM releases a similar list, but even if the organization did so, I doubt we’d see Al Mohler’s name as a donor. In other words, I doubt the money flowed in both directions -- I doubt Mohler gave Sovereign Grace Ministries a lot of financial support. (If anyone knows differently, please jump in and correct me.)
So CJ and Mohler have some sort of tentative friendship, and almost immediately (within a few years of the two men’s names being linked), CJ becomes one of Mohler’s organization’s more significant donors. It’s not rocket science to surmise the effect that fact would have on their relationship, whatever that may be.
(Me personally? I highly doubt the two guys are anything beyond back-slapping business acquaintances who may have had some interesting exchanges backstage while waiting their turns to speak at various conferences…but who are certainly nothing like the bosom buddies some people imagine them to be, like how CJ tried to portray their relationship when he talked a few years back about how great it was to be hanging out with the RBDs, sitting around laughing and “correcting each other.” Like the RBDs were his BFF accountability partners or something, like they were in a position to “correct” him. Like they were -- unlike anyone else within SGM -- actually able to “speak into his life” and confront him in his wrongdoings. Um, no. Just no. Given the celeb Christian leaders’ tight schedules and the huge demands on their own individual ministries, and the fact that they don’t interact in person beyond the occasions when they’re dealing with CBMW board meetings or speaking at conferences, there’s just no way that they could have developed friendships that are deep enough to include confrontation and correction.)
But it’s interesting that CJ’s rise in influence was accompanied by a rise in donations.
It’s not just money, exactly, either. I think CJ exudes some sort of weird charm that makes people want to be in his good graces. I’ve never felt it or understood it personally, but apparently people think he is funny and entertaining, and that his teachings tug on people’s heartstrings or something. The RBDs typically have been known for their less-than-charismatic, less-than-humorous, less-than-entertaining presentation style. They were probably attracted to CJ for the new dimension his frantic and emotive style could bring to their
stage performancesconferences. It’s sort of like why the class brain likes being around the class clown.So there was money, and there was CJ’s personal charm. Then there is the simple matter of pride. If these guys were to back away from CJ now, that would be a tacit admission that they’d made a major mistake with him. They’re just not going to do that. I think in their minds, there’s just too much at risk.
No, barring some sort of whistle-blowing, we’ll never know for certain what drove (and continues to drive) the RBDs to stick with CJ. But it’s not difficult to imagine the dynamics of their relationships.
August 14th, 2012 at 7:21 am
Just for fun, I went back and found this comment:
August 14th, 2012 at 8:01 am
Maybe the “correcting” had to do with whether one sport was more manly than another, or who would win the championship or something.
Different subject-I had noticed over the years that Brent was always a “stuffed shirt”. Then a few years before he got canned he began to try to add some humor when he spoke. I remember at a Celebration he mentioned that CJ was funny and he was not but he was growing in that area. I think it’s amusing to see Brent being “funny” in his current emails and blog posts. Although he usually comes across as being sarcastically looney.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:33 am
Kris-
I was at the celebration where Piper first preached, and as far as I know it was one of his first encounters with PDI and CJ. 1995 maybe, give or take a year. Some weeks after, CJ played an audio at church Sunday (chortling about the praise from Piper) where Piper was telling (I believe his own church) about how he had been asked to speak at this itty bitty little denomination and how great the worship was. As I recall that was during a brief year or so of genuine HS refreshing (and no, I am not into Toronto or Howard Browne. But there was a refreshing going on.) To give credit where credit is due, I have no reson to think the worship was not every bit as good as Piper said, and I am sure it fed and blessed his own soul.
Piper was astute enough to say something publically that weekend (adressed to CJ himself) about paying more attention and interest to world missions. So he wasn’t at that point drinking kool aid.
This was all right about when Grudem’s Systematic Theology came out. Grudem hit the nation big time. It is in Reformed churches and Seminaries, despite being Baptist and Continuationist( charismatic w/o the crazy stuff). It made theology so accessible to the layman. If you’ve read other STs they are more through, but Grudem was just perfect for the Reformed Community- not too intimidating and soundly Calvinist and not dispensationalism. Plus of course complementarian. Because Piper and others believe that egalitarianism (women can be pastors, etc) is based on a hermeneutic that leads to liberalism, it is a big deal and not just a normal nonessential like say polity discussions.
Anyway, Piper took a stand for the continuation of spiritual gifts in a Grudemite way- like non canonical prophecy. Apart from a very few lone voices like Vern Poythress at Westminster TS, there was pretty much only the total cessationist postition in Refomed circles. People who read history know that Spurgeon and men who wrote the Westminster Confession believed in words of knowledge and prophecy (Spurgeons own operation in gifts is pretty neat to read about). Things have changed a lot the past 15 years or so, and in many PCA churches such as in Keller’s presbytery, cessationism/tongues is not even an issue at all; even a church elder can pray in private tongues.
But anyway, in the 90s, that attraction of being Refomed and Charismatic was huge. Gigantic. If you wanted to be Calvinist and also believed in gifts, there was nowhere else to go. The few groups that claimed to be both were either very charismatic (Virgo with Toronto blessing churches) or dispensational. That pretty much left SGM. Here and there I hear of a lone church that tries to be both, but nobody has done what CJ did on a denominational level, or let’s say claimed to do.
By the time we left, having a good grasp of theology and an early charismatic background, it was obvious that PDI was neither Reformed in practice or charismatic in practice. It was top down control and legalism, classic 70s shepherding. But the way they talked from the front and to the Big Dogs, well, I can see why Piper was sucked in. Same reason we wanted to join.
If Grudem had started a denomination maybe everything would have been different the past 18 years or so. But he didn’t, and CJ became the poster boy for a Calvinism with an openess to the very real power and presence of the Holy Spirit. If you were actually in it, after a while you saw that it was a distorted Calvinism with the very real power and presence of Mahaney. But you had to be in it to see it I think.
I also think these men at the top had help, dark spiritual help. CJ in himself just isn’t what normally impresses the Reformed community. I mean, Carl Trueman for example? Carl is a genius. That mesmerizing ability might just be flesh, but I think there is more. A false apostle masquerading as a good guy…Paul calls them servants of Satan. 2 Cor 11…”enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face”.
We all need to pray. The infection has spread so far beyond SGM.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:43 am
I have always appreciated the teachings about these Scriptures
Yet, I do believe I saw them ‘twisted around’. Care Group Leaders would ‘search’ for things to correct someone about about, and it got to be anytime at all someone started to say something complimentary to you, you knew it would be followed by some sort of ‘correction’! I always ‘received’ the teachings concerning correction each other to be more of a natural thing-that when tempted to ‘take the easy route’ with a friend, by telling a ‘white lie’, it is not really ‘being their friend’. If a friend complains about how they were treated, I will not necessarily just pat them on the back, and encourage them in licking their wounds, I will truthfully have compassion, but also help them to find a solution-perhaps something they can change with their own reaction, to help improve the situation, or at least help[ them re-frame their attitude so that they can release bitterness and move on in life. THAT, to me, is what these Scriptures speak of! Not “No, no no, let me ‘correct you’ on who is the best basketball player”, or the other jokes CJ uses to speak of ‘correcting’ with his buddies. If one exemplifies a teaching with a joke, it is funny, but was what should have been ‘imparted’ successfully done, or do people remember the joke, and then flounder around to follow the ambiguous example, often with a wrong interpretation? That is kind of how it seemed to me back then, I dont know how others felt because I never really discussed this back then.
August 14th, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Kris 212
I totally agree with you about the money (and gifts) CJ has lavished on people in the Reformed world. And there are many more stories besides his donations to the SBTS.
CJ sent a new computer to a leader in Cuba and one in Philly. I believe he was in the CCEF. He gave very generously to many churches. We were there the day he gave a custom football helmet to RC Sproul. There were many other expensive gifts given to leaders who came to preach at CLC. There were also huge baskets of treats left in the hotels of those who came to ‘serve’ at CLC or SGM. Generosity with members’ donations, is a hallmarks of SGM.
We probably heard of a fraction of the gifts given by CJ. He never asked for input from the congregation or reported the gifts in any public, itemized fashion. We heard about them as an aside and saw a few. But, I doubt that many Christian organizations lavish gifts, en par with SGM. They really know how to ‘love bomb’ their comrades in the Reformed community. That would have to be one of the bigger incentives to retain the good graces of Mahaney.
Another incentive to keep CJ on your side, would be fear. CJ bullies and busts on others until they agree with him. In this, he typically uses humor but, at other times, chiding and outright threats are used. He wrestles his opponents until they are too fatigued to fight back.
I think the only area the Big Dogs may try to correct CJ, is in his theology. Even then, I am sure CJ tries hard to sway them to agree with him. It is a fool’s errand to try and correct CJ on anything of substance.
Brent found that out too late.
August 14th, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Kris -
In Brent’s latest post, in the midst of his (correct, I think) excoriation of Mickey Connolly, he writes: “I am Mickey’s best friend but somehow that fact escapes his notice!”
I find this very weird. Your mention, in #213, of their interpretation of faithful friends wounding each other, brings some clarity. The more you wound, the better friend you are. The Marquis de Sade might agree. Brings a new dimension to “With friends like you…”
Interesting that Brent refers to friendship as a “fact.” In some sense it is, but a lot of those ambiguous things called “feelings” enter into it. I guess Brent crunched the data and left those out.
I know from experience that you cannot be friends with someone you don’t respect, and it seems clear to me that these two do not respect each other -- maybe in the past, but not now.
It’s particularly worrisome when someone who spent many years as a church leader is apparently clueless as to what constitutes friendship, and, most likely, about other human relationships.
August 14th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
JeffB (218)- I agree! When I read that, I thought, “With a friend like that, who needs enemies?” Crazy stuff!
August 14th, 2012 at 4:23 pm
One thing is for sure in SGM. They have their own definitions for a lot of words and concepts that most of us wouldn’t understand, much less agree with. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend” somehow morfs into “a friend’s MAIN purpose is to wound you, tear you down, and then tell you to look to the cross.” What in the world is their definition of love, and how do they show it?
August 14th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
WHAT’S NEW AT COVENANT FELLOWSHIP? JUST THOUGHT I’D ASK SINCE I’M ABOUT TO GET ON MY KNEES!
August 14th, 2012 at 8:56 pm
5Years @216: Oh how well I remember that Celebration where Piper spoke. I also remember well the Care Group leaders meeting following that Celebration where our Pastor (yeah, you know who you are) did some MAJOR backpeddling away from Pipers exhortation to all the young people to really consider seriously World Missions, and how didn’t quite represent the SGM view of things. Oh gee, those were the day :Yes-Sir: s.
August 14th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
The “faithful friends” topic has come up before. Here is a comment from awhile back where I shared some thoughts:
August 15th, 2012 at 11:29 am
Rick:
A pastors college student also told me that CJ tried very hard to dissuade Piper from giving that missions message.
August 15th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Hey, stop it!
SG is all about world missions. Their 2 recent acquisitions in California prove it. They had a church in the San Francisco area suburbs that was almost exclusively Asian. This church met in the building of another evangelical church. The other church stood out for its ethnic diverity. The SG church moved to a more affluent suburb a couple of years ago. I think the banner that they hang out offers this welcome: “This sign says ya got to have a membership card to get inside”.
The San Francisco church leader(s) bragged about how SG was spending $500k over 3 years to plant a Gospel-centered church in SF. That church met in another church’s building, too, until somehow SG ended up with the building.
Dave Harvey has braved the wilds of the San Francisco and San Diego areas to give $10K checks to churches there within the last couple of years. Those funds can go to purchasing sorely needed items like Starbucks for Sunday mornings and vital literature from PeaceMakers and CCEF.
My contacts in CA (and elsewhere in the Kingdom of CJ) have pretty much dried up. They are too busy spreading the Gospel to the heathen in the pew next to them.
As for faithful friends, among the words I disliked most while in SG were “I want to speak truth to you” or “speaking the truth in love”. My simple brain rewired itself to translate these euphemisms into a single instruction: “duck”. As in “duck and cover”.
Yeah, I ducked. I ducked right out.
Swimming freely now,
Former SG Pastor
August 15th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
FSGP,
Compare to this: http://youtu.be/qhhjDWrTKU0
August 15th, 2012 at 4:43 pm
I did a little searching around the Bradenton church’s web site.
Under the What to Expect / Statement of Faith link, you’ll find:
My first thought: “Under Construction? Ya think?”
Under the Learn More / Our Leadership link, if your scroll down to the bottom you’ll find:
Wow. You mean the paid pastor/elder/deacon isn’t an all-in-one super Holy Ghost anointed discernment and guidance man?
Rock on, Bradenton.
August 15th, 2012 at 6:45 pm
“They are too busy spreading the Gospel to the heathen in the pew next to them”
Lol. I had a good laugh over that one.
August 15th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
You should see the look on the face of a Christian “outsider” when an SGMer leans over at a local sports event and proceeds to “speak some truth into his life” while the game’s going on.
Priceless!!
I observed it more than once. I got to wondering if CrossWay was rewarding members with those little gold stick-on stars.
August 15th, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Does anyone know where I can find more information about the shepherding movement and its hallmarks? A link or article?
Also, does anyone know approximately how many former SGM pastors contribute to this blog? I have found reading someone who knows the system well very helpful to me, at least the ones who identify themselves as so. Just curious, Thanks,
August 15th, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Hey Jim --
Interesting vid. If I had come across FChan (or the like) could be I’d still be an evangelical.
Oh, the perils of following the wrong Bald Guy.
I was blinded by the reflection, I was -
Former SG Pastor
August 15th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Thanks for that link Jim….Mr. Chan seems likes a good dude
August 15th, 2012 at 11:23 pm
Google the guy. Megachurch celeb pastor walks away to minister to the poor. Sells a boatload of books, but doesn’t receive royalties.
I’m not looking for someone to follow, but I’m humbled by his example.
August 16th, 2012 at 7:38 am
Wizer #230
This article provides a good overview of shepherding movement practices. There is a nice little nugget at the end. A prize to the first person who spots it.
This issue of New Wine Magazine from March 1974 has an article by Charles Simpson called Making Disciples that you may also find helpful.
August 16th, 2012 at 7:56 am
ExCCKer, couldn’t resist looking at the article and trying for the prize. Could the nugget be in this paragraph?
While Christian Growth Ministries, Crossroads, and Maranatha are among the most prominent of the shepherding organizations, there are many others. Most of these are self-contained; that is, they retain the internal sheep-shepherd structure, but may or may not include the pyramidal hierarchy that culminates in a nationwide or international organization. Among these groups are “Gathering of Believers,” led by Larry Tomczak; Carl Stevens’ “The Bible Speaks,” Hobart Freeman’s “Faith Assembly;” “Last Days Ministries,” founded by the late Keith Green; “University Bible Fellowship;” and “Champaign-Urbana Ministries.”
Ya know, my parents met, married, and had a bunch of kids in a cult in the mid-70′s (in West Virginia), and escaped in the early 80′s. When I started going to CLC, they had serious concerns about it, and said it felt cult-like to them (this was when I first started attending in 2000). I shoulda listened to them! What is that saying about how your parents get smarter as you get older??????…….
August 16th, 2012 at 8:40 am
Two Feet Out you are the winner! Here is your prize:
:Congratulations:
August 16th, 2012 at 8:55 am
Congratulations, Two Feet Out.
Articles from a google search on shepherding will frequently reference “Gathering of Believers” and Larry Tomczak. CJ was right there with him, he just wasn’t as popular as Tomczak at the time.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:20 am
Jim -
Forgive me for being skeptical. But I am. All these guys look good on video. In blogs. Endorsing each other books. Refer to “Mahaney CJ”.
Former SG Pastor
August 16th, 2012 at 9:20 am
I first learned of Francis Chan from my kids. Chan is a popular speaker at the Passion Conference. The college kids LOVE him!
I’ve grown cynical of “big conferences” and those that speak at them. I haven’t researched much about the guy because I have grown so cynical about such…so many of these conferences are ran by or linked to the same “bunch”.
As the sheep become more educated I’m hoping the big conferences will die and all the big profits will cease. Chan sounds like a “good guy” -- if he is, God will provide for him and his ministry in other ways.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:23 am
FSGP, we were posting at the same time.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:19 am
AKS, also have become very cynical and suspicious of all the big name preacher/author types out there. Like politicians, they may start out with good intentions and the desire to serve, but the addictive nature of power and popularity is almost impossible to resist.
August 16th, 2012 at 10:52 am
Two Feet Out @ 235,
Interesting…I used to live right near a “Bible Speaks” church and Christian School in South Berwick, ME. I had considered sending my child to Christian school there, but people in the area were saying it was cultish so I never really checked into it seriously.
August 16th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
AKS re:239 -
Hence, AKS … ;^)
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
August 16th, 2012 at 8:25 pm
I haven’t read through all the comments but I have a concern that I have never seen addressed… I don’t know what the answer is, but honestly, the idea of churches leaving doesn’t thrill me. I am very anti-sgm… they sicken me. I spent far too many years of my life there and will never, ever go back. Not even to a church that used to be a part and has left. I want to be forgiving and I know that people can change and grow, but I also know how ingrained the sgm way becomes and have little to no faith at all that leaving will change a lot. I guess what I’m trying to say is, there is a certain sense of “safety” in being associated with sgm because I know to stay away, and many others do, too. But when a church leaves and is independent or joins another group, it is still going to have the same mindset and the same issues, just under a different name, and there won’t be that sgm warning label. I’m terrified of ever getting involved with something like sgm again. Nothing is new -- yes, there is lots out in the open now that was concealed for so long, but come on, it’s been there all along, and many of us saw all the junk years ago. The main thing different now is that more people are talking about it after being hushed for so long under the “gossip and slander” cr*p. If they had left before it was looking “cool” to leave, they would have had my utmost respect. But leaving now, when they know they have a fan base of anti-sgm’ers? Um, no, I just see a bunch of churches going off on their own (or starting a new group) that is no longer associated with sgm but is still full of the same stuff. Yes, God can and does change hearts -- but behavior is deeply rooted and it’s not going to change just because a church is no longer part of sgm. Pastors have been trained a certain way, and have patterns that have become a part of them -- so much so that I have no doubt they don’t even realize how far off they are. I know my feelings are strong, but honestly, the only hope for true change and reform to me is that it all comes crashing down and any new churches start from scratch with brand new leadership.
August 16th, 2012 at 9:34 pm
Empty -
:THANK-YOU:
That was a thought-provoking post. Hmmmmm ….
Before I left leadership, I had dozens of SG pastors across the US and internationally who were prayer partners. My “friends” on Facebook was an A-list of SG leaders, musicians, and prominent pastors.
When I stepped out of leadership I heard from … not a one of them. Not. One.
No emails, phone calls, google chats, good ol’ fashioned snail mail letters. Nada. Zilch. Goose egg.
6 months later I quit the church where I had served and the denomination. Within a few months of being out I had the magnificent realization that I missed them as much as they missed me. Not at all.
Left before it was cool,
Former SG Pastor -- Not missing them for ~4 years!
August 16th, 2012 at 9:43 pm
FSGP #245
My experience exactly! Where were my “friends” of several years?? This says all you need to know about a church. That little dod means -- PERIOD!!
August 16th, 2012 at 10:28 pm
Empty -- I totally agree. I do see the positive in at least some of the churches leaving, but I also wonder if anything will really change for them. They have been well trained in SGM thought and practice.
FSGP -- So have any of them contacted you since to make amends?
August 16th, 2012 at 11:47 pm
WW -
Interesting question. Answer -- mostly “no”.
One person, a SG singer-songwriter-pastor-blogger type, “contacted” me when his email was hacked and I was subsequently spammed from his account.
One gent, who I co-led with, contacted me last fall before the SG pastors conference. I had not heard from him in over a year. He contacted me because he wanted to share with me what he had learned at a conference. I reckoned it was probably stuff from PeaceFakers or some of the other rot that was about in SG circles last fall. I wished him well but declined contact. Then he stated that he wanted to renew a relationship with me while at the same time “confessing” to me that he had gossiped about me to the pastors/leaders at the local franchise that we had attended together and to the on-again-off-again apostle, the great De-Gifter himself, the Shankmeister.
Yep.
“Uh huh,” said I. Then I read (or more properly “wrote”) him the Riot Act.
As an act of good faith to show his true desire to restore our relationship, the lad on his own offered to contact SS and make things right with/for me. “Sounds good”, said me. “In good faith I shall not breathe again until you return with news of restitution and reconciliation”.
That was last November …
… breathless 10 months later and holding,
Former SG Pastor
August 16th, 2012 at 11:49 pm
An interesting thing happened at CLC, this week. Todd Twining (an x-SGM pastor and worship leader) who now lives in Baltimore) was asked to lead worship at one of their prayer meetings. It seems like these prayer meetings were created to allow for more movement of the Holy Spirit, than Sunday meetings. If anyone attended this meeting, perhaps you can report how it went.
August 17th, 2012 at 5:28 am
Persona wrote in #249—prayer meetings created to allow more movement of the Holy Spirit instead of the Sunday morning service!
now why does that strike me as funny?
God forbid that the Holy Spirit would move on Sunday Morning. Before I left the church I attended there were only 2 incidents where the Holy Spirit was there in 10 years. It’s incredible what men can do without the Presence of God.
And FSGP you are off limits to most folks still in sgm-when you leave on your own-- you are the enemy.