According to a few of my email correspondents, Gulf Coast Community Church in St. Petersburg, Florida will be leaving the Sovereign Grace Ministries organization. The church is formally announcing its departure tomorrow.
EDITED TO ADD: No announcement was made this past Sunday. Apparently, the pastor at GCC miscommunicated in some way with those who came away with the impression that the church’s departure from SGM was imminent. Interesting to note: even if GCC were to leave the organization, the church does not seem to have congregational input or any sort of congregational say in decisions like this one.
September 12th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Yellow and Blindsided -- thanks for the heads up about Goodwill in Gburg. Definitely won’t be going there. I think I did give my CLC books away, but I just recycled most of my notes and notebooks after many many years of holding onto them.
As for C.J. looking in the mirror -- LOL. I saw it in the 90′s, way before I left the church. Guess I was just ahead of my time.
September 12th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
I’m sitting here watching the new iPhone announcement and thinking that these pictures could be from an SGM Conference :) Also, how long before SGM buys the new iPhone 5 for all of their top dogs.
September 12th, 2012 at 2:00 pm
I liquidated boxes of teaching tapes and books this year, too.
I just ran across our copy of the ‘Tribute to Charles Joseph Mahaney’. It’s 160 pages long! Thinking about changing the title and reissuing it as a manual for idol worship.
September 12th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Great idea Persona.
September 12th, 2012 at 5:44 pm
Persona, you should at least have it scanned and posted somewhere for all to read….
September 12th, 2012 at 5:46 pm
You have to be kidding me.
No, you are probably serious. Unbelievable.
160 pages? When was this? The same function where BK was singing worship to CJ and the others were dancing and singing that ditty about him bringing them into the promised land?
Ugh.
September 12th, 2012 at 6:10 pm
SGM has a new post re: CJ’s conflict with CLC…it’s a doozey. Is this the new board pastors are holding out hope for? No mention of the fact that CJ is leaving with unresolved conflicts with pastors and members. Only implication that CLC pastors have done wrongly but they are now above pointing out what they have done. Lovely. No one has the guts to hold CJ accountable. Not the old board, not the interim board, not the new board. http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/A-Letter-from-the-SGM-Board.aspx
September 12th, 2012 at 6:50 pm
From the letter:
“…We have a long history of fruitful ministry together.
And for the sake of that gospel and the unity that it should produce in our
family of churches, we think it is time to stress our agreement on
fundamentals and to move beyond evaluating or criticizing the actions of the
CLC pastors or the Leadership Team. And so we invite everyone who is a
part of SGM to consider applying the principle behind Philippians 4:2 to this
disagreement—let’s agree in the Lord.”
Make no mistake, this isn’t an invitation. It’s a directive. If you are not willing to let issues go, there will be consequences. It is subtly telling pastors how they should think now. Watch how many of fall in lock step and now peddle this same language.
September 12th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
Courage, candor and honesty; three requirements for godly leadership--why does the CLC pastoral staff continue to debase themselves in this process. If they would say nothing, the blatant hypocrisy of SGM leadership would be seen for what it is. Sometimes I think that the CLC staff thinks very little of their congregation. Their responsibility is to better clothe them--truth is the best covering.
September 12th, 2012 at 7:03 pm
Well put, Rick. I think the fact that CJ has hurt the entire CLC congregation and it goes completely unmentioned by the board is appalling. More evidence of “only pastors matter” culture.
September 12th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
The language and posturing, that I describe as debasing onself, is a part of SGM-speak and culture that I find especially demeaning and offensive. Fraudulent debasement is NOT humility--it is highly manipulative, self-centered and controlling. It does not look--or sound--like Jesus. Is this a result of Pastor College brainwashing? Or simply a result of immersion in the culture. I feel nothing but sadness for the CLC congregation at the response of those entrusted with their souls.
September 12th, 2012 at 7:11 pm
My apologies, I should have better said those entrusted with watchcare over their souls--I know completely that their souls are safe in Jesus. Gratefulness as I write.
September 12th, 2012 at 7:44 pm
“Spaghetti” will(is)hitting the fan over this.
We were taught how to detect “false humility”.
@Rick -- You nail it when you say “Fraudulent debasement is NOT humility--it is highly manipulative, self-centered and controlling.”
September 12th, 2012 at 7:48 pm
Ya know, I think we on the blogs have been ‘agreeing in the Lord’ for about five years about that corrupt organization.
September 12th, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Back briefly after a long absence. (My early questions got answered, and I had nothing else substantive to add or offer.)
A question or two: has CLC severed its relationship with SGM? It sounds from the last three or four posts that they have not, but then I wondered if this letter is one of “friendly disconnect” or simply, “Let’s let bygones be bygones and move on together.”
Second, has Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax severed its relationship with SGM?
I have moved since first participating here, and those are the two churches in which I had/have some friends and broader family connections. However, the subject is painful within some of the family circles, so I’d rather ask here than anyone I know personally.
Thanks to whoever might answer me.
F.O.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:06 pm
Well this is what I came away with after reading the letter from the SGM Board, “let’s just call it even and everyone move along so CJ and Co. can get on with spreading their gospel.” The language reeked of SGM is in charge and this is what they have decided to do (aren’t they so wonderful, wise, and benevolent folks).
It is all very confusing to most people, I imagine, with a past SGM/CJ Board, an Interim SGM/CJ Board, the current SGM Board (picked by CJ), and a current SGM/CJ Leadership Team. Hmm . . . everyone keeps passing the buck — but we can see one consistent name that is in the midst of conflict. It has been that way for 30 years it seems.
I think SGM/CJ would just like CLC to go away and do it “well” — ya know like CJ left CLC (sarcasm). He set such a good example.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:13 pm
Read the letter as well. It appears that the SGM board really knows how to say a whole lot of nothing for a whole page. The attachment really doesn’t make much point anywhere except “We’ve had disagreements. Let’s not charge each other. Let’s move on”.
I’m so tired of this band-aid approach that SGM has to everything. If they dealt with all their issues, those mentioned on this and other blogs and the events of the past year, head on instead of trying to sweep them around the rug they wouldn’t be in the predicament that they are in now. I am a little disappointed in CLC’s response to the letter, again milketoast(we didn’t craft or agree with this letter, but we appreciate it). Sadly, I keep waiting for CLC to be more bold and all we get is more of the same people-pleasing, PC responses to SGM.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Bridget
Good points post 215. IMO, it is a way for SGM to save face rather than admit and deal with C.J. Mahaney’s hypocrisy. In some ways it was putting a lot of words out there without really saying a lot.
FF
I haven’t heard of CLC or Fairfax leaving SGM. I do know that CLC is currently not giving an support to SGM (the typical 10% tithe SGM churches are expected to give corporate). I believe Fairfax has done the same or at least reduced how much they give.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Friendly Observer #214 — On the second question, no, Sovereign Grace Church Fairfax has not severed its relationship with SGM. As was stated in the last family meeting, the question of continued association with SGM is awaiting the soon-to-be-released, revamped SGM Partnership Agreement. SGCF’s Polity Working Group has finished (or nearly finished) its work on local church polity, so I imagine it will come down to the extent to which the new Partnership Agreement and local policy decisions connect and/or collide.
For those interested, the next three sermons at SGC FFX are focused on Ephesians — specifically (a) the question of church associations (this coming Sunday); (b) the question of apostolic leadership; and (c) the use of words and social media.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:20 pm
Josh’s office was next to his. No wonder C.J. ran way.
“But the story behind me serving in this role is more about my good friend, C. J. Mahaney, and his investment in me. He invited me into his home and family, trained me for pastoral ministry, gave me various opportunities to lead, and then eventually asked me to step in and assume his role. It was the fall of 2004 that he “passed the baton” so to speak and set me in place so that he could devote himself to leading the family of churches known as Sovereign Grace. His office is still next to mine. We meet every Tuesday for lunch. C. J. wanted to give me a chance to lead while I was young and while he was around to serve me. And that’s what he does. He’s a sounding board for ideas, and a trusted source of counsel.”
http://adrianwarnock.com/2008/01/29th-most-read-post-josh-harris-on/
September 12th, 2012 at 8:31 pm
Brent has had a new post up (since 9/8):
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/9/8/when-salt-becomes-saltless-it-is-good-for-nothing.html
I haven’t seen anyone mention it yet.
September 12th, 2012 at 8:33 pm
Just read the “letter of opinion”. Huh?
September 12th, 2012 at 8:49 pm
He lived with CJ. He was mentored by CJ. He knew CJ for 15 years. Then after getting an email from Brent, he suddenly realizes CJ is a bad person?
September 12th, 2012 at 9:22 pm
CW -- not sure what you are getting at re: Josh -- but your assumption is again incorrect.
September 12th, 2012 at 9:26 pm
CW 219
CJ’s office had been moved downstairs with the rest of SGM, before the exodus to L’ville. But, it still must have been awkward to all use the same facility during those final months.
Josh is a fine actor, but the stress of this year must be enormous and seemingly endless. He is likely grateful that the SGM board decided to punt the conflict. But, we sure don’t have any indication that he desires to publicly condemn any of their actions.
Meanwhile, CLC struggles to create a new identity, healthy enough to retain as many members as possible, whilst changing their polity as little as needed, to please themselves and their interests.
They bank a lot on the attractive and charismatic nature of Joshua, the young apprentice of CJ. He is really the main reason some have hung-on this year. But, I doubt even he will be able to convince everyone to stay, if he retains his association with that most deceitful group of men.
But, we do not believe it is Josh’s intention to end his association with SGM.
These are a few of the most noticeable indicators:
The CLC website continues to show their affiliation.
CLC sent a team to L’ville to present polity suggestions and Josh attended conferences with them this summer.
Family connection: Josh’s brother will attend SBTS this Fall. While that does not affirm SGM directly it does affirm them indirectly, since Jeff and CJ teach there and Mohler is hog wild over SGM.
Even though CLC says they discontinued their tithes to SGM they soon took that huge amount of money and donated it to SGM churches and charities affiliated with SGM ministries, all without asking permission from the congregation. That saved CJ thousands of dollars. And, what assurance does the congregation have about how those monies were used? At least one of the ‘missions’ was recently truncated.
Josh continues to promote future SGM conferences and advertise Bob Kauflin’s new music CDs. He even shares CLC worship leaders like Ken Boer with them.
Who knows what else they are doing with Sovereign Grace that is not made public?
September 13th, 2012 at 1:36 am
@ CW #219, you seem to have this habit of engaging in the sort of rhetoric of talk radio show hosts whose job is primarily to stir up discussion by articulating controversial matters in the most simplistic and shocking terms possible.
I doubt Josh thinks that C.J. is a bad person, and I would gather that he still views C.J. as a sort of spiritual father. What Josh has done is openly acknowledge that C.J. has done wrong and that SGM has done wrong things in its culture, and that his relationship with him (and in a larger sense, the relationship between the leadership of CLC and the leadership of SGM) is strained. That’s not particularly revolutionary stuff, when it comes down to it.
I see the responses of both parties to the letter as more along the lines of “Sounds good…okay, other guy, your move.” The letter is simplistic and thus favors C.J.’s side more, but this sort of “can’t we all just get along” kind of conciliation is more of a response of “I don’t like conflict” rather than “C.J. is right,” from my perspective.
September 13th, 2012 at 9:11 am
Just read SGM’s letter. From now on, whenever I have sinned against my girlfriend, I will tell her to “agree in the Lord” with me, and move on. I don’t want to “perpetuate my past failings”.
September 13th, 2012 at 9:40 am
re the SGM Board letter…
Why can’t they call him Jesus or Jesus Christ, instead of “our savior”???
September 13th, 2012 at 11:44 am
Michael,
I see is more of “I hat you CLC guys but I dont want anything else dredged up and made public so let’s just bury the hatchet.
And the CLC side is why bother, even if they win and prove EVERYTHING (which wouldnt be hard to do) where is the pay off? What would they gain. So let that sleeping dog lie.
Face saving on SGM/CJ’s part. Gutless but practical on CLC’s part.
This is actually the first SGM move I have been impressed with.
September 13th, 2012 at 11:49 am
5years #228: Why can’t they call him Jesus or Jesus Christ, instead of “our savior”???
Because the term savior is functional. Jesus or Jesus Christ is personal/relational. SGM has always emphasized functional above relational. That is a pervasive value that has caused many problems….. dealing with people in a functional capacity rather than a relational one.
btw, it’s beginning to sound like CLC and Fairfax will stay with SGM. This past letter from the board is the proverbial first foot falling. We should hear the second foot fall soon (we’ve decided to stick together because the polity is suitable).
It is sad they have made this about polity instead of CJ’s sin(s), particularly against CLC. It is also sad that Josh and company have presumed to speak on behalf of the entire congregation in rendering their disposition regarding CJ’s sin(s). This is a great example of a change in polity, but behind the scenes (and now openly),,, nothing has changed. Josh and company exercise selective authority when it suits their agenda. The church, who CJ offended and is ultimately accountable to, has no say in the matter.
September 13th, 2012 at 3:36 pm
It will be interesting. Both CLC and Fairfax have published that they do not believe in Apostles any longer AND that they do not see any kind of “extra-local” authority holding sway over anything in the church.
So…we will have to wait.
I agree with you. If SGM writes something that is not too controlling THEN how would CLC and Fairfax leave? They wont have the polity excuse any longer. Since CJ has done nothing wrong what other reason would there be to leave?
September 13th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
CJ keeps harping on the ‘offenses’ committed against him, by CLC pastors. Ha. I am sure most of us would cherish the opportunity to see his long diatribe, to judge for ourselves. Of course, CJ is ‘kindly protecting’ the CLC pastors by not publishing his slander and judgements. But, perhaps CLC could publish it themselves to show what CJ is made of?
I think it is cute that both parties claim to have come together to ‘listen’ to each other, as if they were so humble to have forgotten to bring their own laundry list to the table. They should be ashamed of their deceitfulness to members; those who fund the very computers they use to broadcast their deceit!
CJ has a pretty diabolical mind, able to twist and turn the truth, at will. It’s scary to observe but, woe to them who think they have clean hands when they come before a holy God!
The question remains, why would CLC want to have anything to do with that awful organization? It is baffling. I don’t care if they have agreement on a high percentage of issues and have a long history with them.
I care more about the things they DON’T agree on right now.. like the truth of what just happened this year. I see no reason to grant them any more loopholes. CLC should NOT give them a pass on their very obvious sins.
September 13th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
According to Brian Chesemore’s resignation letter, Josh had been a dissenter before Brent’s documents.
“I have observed over the last two years an undeniably diminishing enthusiasm amongst members of our pastoral team for the partnership we share with Sovereign Grace Ministries. I returned to Covenant Life in 2003 after a church plant in part because of this church’s strategic partnership with Sovereign Grace Ministries. But for the last two years I have had growing questions and concerns regarding our relationship with Sovereign Grace Ministries which I’ve expressed to Josh, the board of elders, and various members of our pastoral team. Many discussions have led me to believe that the majority of our pastoral team seems to think there is little to learn from Sovereign Grace. Under our board’s leadership, we have spent far more time criticizing in matters of polity and mission than building up and partnering with SGM even though SGM has been in the laborious process of leading us in polity refinements for almost two years. And our trajectory has been a steady move away from Sovereign Grace, which deeply disappoints me. I’m not suggesting that Covenant Life won’t remain a SGM church. I pray and have a strong hope that it will. But I believe our church has minimized and neglected the privilege of our long-standing partnership with our friends in Sovereign Grace. I had hoped and planned for a transition much farther down the road, and in a manner that would cause the least amount of pain to people I love and would prefer to spend the rest of my life pastoring. However, the pastoral meetings and recent members’ meetings related to Brent Detwiler’s accusations have expedited this decision for me.”
September 13th, 2012 at 7:16 pm
CW 233
Most of us remember his comments and many of us were there when he spoke them. Consider the source.
September 13th, 2012 at 8:25 pm
CW -
The discord was going on well before the actual documents came out, before Chesemore was even a pastor. I have nothing against Chesemore, but l also don’t believe in providing jobs for your SILa or that a SIL can be very impartial.
September 13th, 2012 at 9:01 pm
Chesemore became an associate pastor in 2003. Josh became senior pastor in 2004. As late as the 2008 interview -- see the link at #220 -- Josh was still publicly singing CJ’s praises. What discord are you referring to? Was Josh’s public comments about CJ all for show?
September 13th, 2012 at 9:11 pm
@Persona232:
I think CLC is a mixed bag of congregants. You have some that are very passionate about staying with SGM, others disgusted at SGM and that want to sever ties ASAP, and those that are ambivalent about the whole thing. In looking at CLC’s letters/responses to the whole SGM debacle, I am beginning to observe a willingness to please everyone in the congregation. This is why they say they don’t endorse SGM’s letter but agree with the spirit of it. Since they want to please everyone, they find that pursuing clear disagreement with SGM and displaying that to the congregation is likely to tick off some members, yet they do know that constantly agreeing 100% is going to repel other members. So they continue, as they have the past year, to walk this fine line between agreeing and disagreeing. The problem is that there comes a point where you have to decide one way or the other. When it all boils down to it, either CLC will leave SGM or not. They may try to delay this decision but they will eventually have to make it and regardless of what they do they will upset a good portion of their congregation. They will lose members regardless. They can’t remain aligned with SGM forever all the while not giving SGM’s required 10%. I just hope they stand for truth and integrity in the long run.
September 13th, 2012 at 9:25 pm
At #220 at the end of the comment is a link to an interview of Josh Harris by Adrian Warnock. At Adrian’s second question is a link to SGM to buy a DVD documenting Josh’s transitioning to Sr P. at CovLife. BUT, NOT surprising, the DVD is no longer available at SGM. LOL I guess they don’t want to contribute to making Josh look good.
September 14th, 2012 at 2:22 am
Cultwatcher,
I think your 233 helps to underscore how SGM survives, and why this blog was started in the first place. For someone who was not a SGM member, or did not live out or through a personal SGM debacle, all that is really out there to put together the pieces of the who, what, when, or why of SGM is the written or recorded word. And for decades that written word was controlled and micro-managed by SGM. This blog sprang up as the few critical comments that arose on the internet would quickly disappear once SGM had located them. (The threat of legal action typically did the trick.)
Most of SGM’s transgression happened off the record, in small groups, behind closed doors, or in a private counseling session. If you really hope to grasp
the SGM story, you should go through all that is available on the blogs, and see if you can correspond with some SGM Survivors. What SGM puts out to the public always has a purpose driven spin, and is reviewed by others before it is fit for release. I would not be surprised if Brian’s letter was not reviewed by the SGM board and CJ. Nothing hits and SGM Pulpit, stage, or publishing outlet without multiple review.
So just because Brian said A, does not mean it is true, or that B or C, etc become irrelevant or wrong.
I would like to add that we all have our own tenancies to color our statements with our own agendas, and with some emotional zeal. To put our perspectives and thoughts in a more flattering light than they deserve, that is human nature. The propaganda that is SGM in written or recorded word is a much more sophisticated animal. It is intentional distortion, it is intentionally vague when it serves them, it is horribly specific when they seek to distract, and at times what they have to say is just outright lies.
If you doubt this, look at the public praises Brent was singing for CJ, then look at his e-mails from the same dates. Two different CJ’s, two different Brent’s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rdo7eZCKE
Even when SGM was 20-30 years of your life, it can still be difficult to make sense of it all. I would suggest a more inquisitive approach to you postings if you really desire to learn about SGM, and spend more time going through all the material available on Survivors and Refuge. The Wartburg watch has some gems as well.
And yes, it was not uncommon for someone to put on a show for CJ, even Josh. Look what CJ did to Larry Tomczak when he went against CJ. No one wanted to be next,
and unfortunately for Josh, and many others, they did not realize what they has stepped in until they were waist deep in it.