It appears Chad Mahaney, C.J.’s young-adult son, has taken up the mantle of writing about sports. In the same way that his dad cluck-clucked over Bill Belichick back in 2008 and tried to turn Tiger Woods’ woes into a sermon illustration in 2009, Chad himself pontificated Wednesday about Lance Armstrong’s sins.
I will never understand why these guys use the shortcomings and failings of professed non-believers as fodder for their own moralizing. Also, does anyone else join me in wondering if either C.J. or Chad followed their organization’s own rigid Matthew 18 policy by first approaching Belichick or Armstrong with their concerns privately before calling these guys out publicly?
(Yes, I’m being slightly tongue-in-cheek here. I don’t actually wonder if Chad Mahaney rang up Lance Armstrong to try and approach him privately about his sins before writing about him on his blog. I’d guess that Chad and his dad both assume that public figures are free game for their blogging. But considering how big a deal a lot of C.J.’s followers often make about Matthew 18 when it came to this site and others like it, it’s still ironic that such high-profile SGMers don’t seem to hold themselves to the same standards they expect others to follow when commenting on their own public ministries.)
And what about the irony of Chad’s quoting C.J., and the irony of C.J.’s own remarks about “secret sins”?
Chad shared the following from something his dad wrote:
And this story should humble and sober us. It should make us ask: Are there any so-called “secret sins” in my life? Is there anything I have done that I hope nobody discovers? Is there anything right now in my life that I should confess to God and the appropriate individuals?
And this should leave us more amazed by grace because there, but for the grace of God, go I.”
“Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper” Proverbs promises, “but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy (28.13).
Then Chad ends the post with this zinger:
If we lie, our story will seem perfect in the moment, but it will always end “bad and toxic.”
I wonder if C.J. reads his son’s (or his son’s ghost writer’s) blogging efforts? Or even his own words?
——————————
In other news, I was intrigued by something Brent Detwiler published yesterday. In a post in which he discusses the possible legal tactics Sovereign Grace Ministries may take when defending itself against the recent lawsuit filed against the organization and several of its leaders, Brent – former apostle and former second-or-third-in-command within the organization - acknowledges something which many SGM defenders have tried to claim wasn’t actually true.
Over the years, we’ve often discussed SGM’s unspoken – though still very real – requirements for remaining in good standing with one’s church leaders. One element many survivors have noted is that they were expected to seek and follow counsel from their pastors about anything remotely significant in their lives. Many of the situations of spiritual abuse occurred when SGM members resisted their pastors’ counsel or disagreed with their pastors’ assessments of the members’ sins.
SGM defenders have tried to claim that such counsel was something sought willingly by the members and not actually any sort of requirement.
But now we have Brent Detwiler himself (and again, remember, up until just a few years ago, Brent was one of the top leaders in the SGM organization) acknowledging that of course members were expected to seek and follow counsel from their pastors. He says:
Everyone knows SGM pastors expect, and people have been taught, that they must come to their overseers with their problems because they are the God ordained means of help. To not come is sin. To not follow their “biblical and spiritual direction” is also sin. No member in a SGM church would consider it a voluntary to seek out their pastor if their child was sexually assaulted by a family or church member. Such a pursuit is mandatory per SGM teaching.
I wonder what some of these SGM defenders are thinking about all this stuff nowadays. Do they still want to argue that there are no unspoken rules, no unspoken yet binding expectations, that really did govern SGM’s culture? If so, they’re going to find themselves at odds with what even one of C.J.’s former head honchos says about this practice.
February 1st, 2013 at 4:17 pm
Another thing that is so odd about Ceej trying to cover up (or for) his son’s troubles is that, assuming CJ felt himself to be the leader of a new generation of Reformed-Charismatic-Calvinist whatevers, he could just look at the examples of James Dobson and Billy Graham just to name two. Both of their sons being groomed for leadership roles went through rebellious phases (Franklin G. very publicly, Ryan D.’s not-so-publicly) and it did not destroy their ministry or mission.
If CJ was smarter, he could have gone the opposite way and said that his son’s troubles were just a sign of the movement’s strength and typical of great religious leaders’ sons, no?
February 1st, 2013 at 4:31 pm
I was listening to a CJ preach at New Attitude 2004 (from a link on the Tolling Bell and I thought CJ did a good job. He didnt seem to be doing quite so much pausing, and he certainly wasnt doing that weird repetitious thing he does not. He seemed to following a thought and taking it to the end. He paused nicely for the audience to laugh or catch up.
Anyway, it has been so long since I heard him preach like that I had forgotten how engaging he could be. Back in they day he was a pleasure to hear. But after the “BIG CHANGE” in about ’04 when CJ changed, SGM changed, celebrations stopped, the magazine stopped, charismatic practices stopped, etc, CJ adopted that stoccata form of speaking and become more and more fermented in his style of speaking. Now it is painful to listen to mp3′s out of Ky.
Just another sad story…
February 1st, 2013 at 5:46 pm
Kris #351 --
Regarding CLCers sounding “brainwashed” (my word) by non-human pastors:
As a CLCer, I grew up hearing constantly in the school and my home that the pastors were given some sort of “special gift” to deal with things that regular people couldn’t handle… therefore, it was some sort of release for pastors to deal with other people’s problems instead of letting them be our own burden. This may be nice and appropriate in SOME situations… but it unfortunately allowed people to believe, and the pastors to imply, that because of their “special gift” their word was final and that any questions of the regular people shouldn’t be discussed amongst each other but rather brought only to the pastors for them to set you straight.
It also gave pastors power to hide and control situations such as the “chad story” and various types of abuse that have gone hidden and unknown for years.
February 1st, 2013 at 5:56 pm
I think CJ is capable of modulating his teaching style. And I do think he recognizes when he gets too extreme for his audience. The reason I think this is CJ once told the congregation that he had to ‘tone it down’ for his UK audience. Apparently they find him slightly hyperactive.
February 1st, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Whether or not CLC brainwashed. I would not have allowed myself to even ponder that before. But, lately I have begun to think yes, they did. And, as much as I hate saying it, I think it is true. They did brainwash. As to why we would think that pastors had a special gifting for solving our problems. We were trained to. I love Jesus but after being there awhile I made alot of my decisions in life based on how I thought my pastor would handle things, not on God’s word. We shared our deepest secrets with our CGL and pastor. That was what we were supposed to do. And, we obeyed their advice because it was not just advice it was what you were supposed to do. There was no encouragement to weigh their words. You were expected to do them. If we didn’t that was a horrible sin! You had to submit to whatever they said. It was not only that they counseled us but they stated their ruling and to not obey was sin. Brainwashed=yes.
February 1st, 2013 at 7:19 pm
Mary #405 RE: Brainwashed
In 1961, Robert J. Lifton wrote the definitive book on the subject of brain-washing, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, after studying the effects of mind control on American prisoners of war under the Communist Chinese. Lifton outlines eight major factors that can be used to identify whether a group is a destructive cult or not.
His list is eerie. I had thought about going through and adding examples from CLC/SGM for each of the eight but realized it was unnecessary. It is self evident. It is almost as if he was talking about CLC/SGM when he wrote it. So did they brainwash? Absolutely. Is it a cult? I believe it is. But I think it is by accident. I think CJ stumbled on these attributes as a young man as a way to control people primarily because they worked. As time went on, these attributes were incorporated into accepted doctrine and practice. The pastors just thought it was the right way to do church.
Milieu Control
“Milieu” is a French word meaning “surroundings; environment.” Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation. Recruits can be physically separated from society, or they can be warned under threat of punishment to stay away from the world’s educational media, especially when it might provoke critical thinking. Any books, movies or testimonies of ex-members of the group, or even anyone critical of the group in any way are to be avoided.
Information is carefully kept on each recruit by the mother organization. All are watched, lest they fall behind or get too far ahead of the thinking of the organization. Because it appears that the organization knows so much about everything and everyone, they appear omniscient in the eyes of the recruits.
Mystical Manipulation
In religious cults, God is ever-present in the workings of the organization. If a person leaves for any reason, accidents or ill-will that may befall them are always attributed to God’s punishment on them. For the faithful, the angels are always said to be working, and stories circulate about how God is truly doing marvelous things among them, because they are “the truth.” The organization is therefore given a certain “mystique” that is quite alluring to the new recruit.
Demand for Purity
The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience. One’s conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group, as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as either good or evil, depending on their relationship to the cult.
Universal tendencies of guilt and shame are used to control individuals, even after they leave. There is great difficulty in understanding the complexities of human morality, since everything is polarized and oversimplified. All things classified as evil are to be avoided, and purity is attainable through immersion into the cult’s ideology.
The Cult of Confession
Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. The members are to be reported if found walking contrary to the rules.
There is often a tendency to derive pleasure from self-degradation through confession. This occurs when all must confess their sins before each other regularly, creating an intense kind of “oneness” within the group. It also allows leaders from within to exercise authority over the weaker ones, using their “sins” as a whip to lead them on.
The “Sacred Science”
The cult’s ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too “sacred” to call into question, and a reverence is demanded for the leadership. The cult’s ideology makes an exaggerated claim for possessing airtight logic, making it appear as absolute truth with no contradictions. Such an attractive system offers security.
Loading the Language
Lifton explains the prolific use of “thought-terminating cliches,” expressions or words that are designed to end the conversation or controversy. We are all familiar with the use of the cliches “capitalist” and “imperialist,” as used by antiwar demonstrators in the 60′s. Such cliches are easily memorized and readily expressed. They are called the “language of non-thought,” since the discussion is terminated, not allowing further consideration.
In the Watchtower, for instance, expressions such as “the truth”, the “mother organization”, the “new system”, “apostates” and “worldly” carry with them a judgment on outsiders, leaving them unworthy of further consideration.
Doctrine Over Person
Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experiences seem. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrinal logic. The person is only valuable insomuch as they conform to the role models of the cult. Commonsense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the cult’s ideology.
Dispensing of Existence
The cult decides who has the “right” to exist and who does not. They decide who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. The leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders can be deceived, for they are not fit to exist!
Source: http://www.freeminds.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=324:eight-marks-of-a-mind-control-cult&catid=36:mind-control&Itemid=351
February 1st, 2013 at 8:23 pm
I appologize if this has been previously mentioned, I haven’t had the time or inclination to keep up with everything in SGM-land recently.
Does anyone know if the following churches have officially left SGM:
- Sovereign Grace Church (Fairfax, VA -- Mark Mullery)
- Sovereign Grace Church (Chesapeake, VA -- Eric Hughes)
- Grace Church (San Diego, CA -- Mark Lauterbach)
None of these churches are currently listed on their website. Does anyone know how many churches have left total?
- Nat
February 1st, 2013 at 9:05 pm
Sam McGee-
Concerning your list of signs of a mind-control cult (from 1961!!!), holy cow!
Nailed SGM. On all of them. Yes, 2 or so of the items would apply to almost ANY christian organization, like purity, but to hit ALL EIGHT on the nose? Just coincidence?
And I always wondered about the sudden appearance of the idea that people were to publicly confess to “care groups” or “small groups” or whatever, which appears in SGM, the purpose-driven church manifesto, and many other newer popular fad movements.
It’s chilling to see that it has it’s roots not in the Bible (which we all knew since it isn’t in there) but actually direct connections to brain washing back in 1961.
Could this really happen by accident over decades, or was it a clever design all along?
February 1st, 2013 at 9:24 pm
@Sam,
I had the honor of meeting with Dr. Lifton last year and I talked with him about seeing his eight points played out frequently while growing up at CLC. It’s both comforting and scary to see that the mental walls that always redirected my thinking back to the church when I was younger do essentially boil down into Lifton’s insightful list. Showing current members the link between sgm practice and textbook cult psychology like this has gotten a few people to consider their investment in the group. Thanks for pointing it out and hopefully the connections will become clearer and clearer.
February 1st, 2013 at 9:48 pm
Nat, yes, all have officially left. I also have a report that Sovereign Grace Church of Merthyr (in Wales) has also left SGM (a member of CLC was visiting when they voted to leave). This would be the first international church
February 1st, 2013 at 10:23 pm
SGM will be busy planting as fast as they can. Don’t know whether to laugh or cry about the announced new franchise in Franklin, TN. Not only are Franklin and nearby Brentwood wealthy areas, but they are already full of good Bible-believing churches. They don’t call it the Bible Belt for nothing. SGM can NOT be thinking this place needs the gospel! This has nothing to do with taking the gospel to that area. It has to do with expanding the franchise into a desirable market. Typical SGM.
They’ll fill their seats almost exclusively with upper-middle class Christians from other churches who are looking for something a little different. And, much like buying a dog that’s already housebroken, SGM can save itself the trouble of actually evangelizing and discipling broken people with messy problems. They get almost a turnkey, business-in-a-box operation — Christians who are already highly successful achievers in their fields, already trained in the basics of their faith and in proper church behavior, all ready to get plugged in to serving and giving and bringing their friends.
More than that, this is where many big names in contemporary Christian music live. It is the hub of the Christian music industry. If they manage to score even one of those celebrity artists, it’s a big feather in their cap. Lots of prestige, money, and connections.
What I am saying is that this move is for the sake of SGM and their “strategic alliances” and ambitions, not for the sake of the gospel.
I wonder if they realize how obvious they are.
February 1st, 2013 at 10:41 pm
Never again @411 — “If they manage to score even one of those celebrity artists, it’s a big feather in their cap. Lots of prestige, money, and connections”. And SGM has BK as bait for attracting other Christian artists and they can name-drop the Getty’s and others.
Wake up, you who went to L’ville from G’berg. You’re being used!
February 1st, 2013 at 10:49 pm
Michael W. Smith lives in Franklin, TN. Amy Grant and Vince Gill have a farm there. Star after star, on and on.
Financial guru Dave Ramsey lives there, too, and he’s famous for saying, when asked how he’s doing, “Better than I deserve!” It’s been his trademark for many, many years.
It’s a wonder SGM hasn’t gone there already.
February 1st, 2013 at 11:56 pm
I had a point to add re: Robert Jay Lifton’s groundbreaking research work.
I’ve noticed in the past couple of posts here and others about SGM very recently in the survivor blogging community that people are talking about *systems* for brainwashing, and whether churches that leave the SGM network can find significant change or whether they’re systems have been too tainted by decades of structuring by authoritarian leaders to even be *salvageable.* Very pertinent points and questions. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot more exploration of those issues in 2013 as the pre-trial phase progresses, and after that as even more details of the subterranean structures of SGM get forced into the light.
My note is that Lifton researched both the “brainwashing” of individual prisoners in Maoist China (imprisoned for political, religious, or military reasons) and the “social conditioning” of the entire country through control. Lately I’ve been thinking about how the two interconnect and reinforce each other. When you knew someone who went to prison and “returned” a changed [i.e., broken] man or woman, that reinforced for the community the consequences of dissent. When the community adjusts to “totalism” of control in every aspect of life, that reinforced for individuals the difficulties of living by conscience instead of compliance. It’s all quite insidious…
And here SGM has had two generations to instill dynamics of power, fear, and control by turning individuals into scapegoats and gradually turning up the heat of compliance for the church and network as a whole.
I agree with Sam McGee #406 that much of the SGM tactics are self-evident (and I’ve not been in an SGM church, but I can get that from reading here the past few months and comparing it with Lifton’s criteria). I suspect we’d do well to consider how best to help people who start coming to the conclusion that Sovereign Grace Ministries is a sociological “cult” as Lifton describes, regardless of what they come to think of SGM doctrine potentially making it a theological “cult.”
February 2nd, 2013 at 12:18 am
CJ brought so many musicians and sound team members along with him to KY that I assumed it meant that he would continue to use the SGM music ministry as a key to keeping SGM viable. It was sneaky but, effective. Strategically planting future churches where SGM worship music can prosper is probably his plan, too. Many Christians do sing SGM songs. We even hear them every so often at our new church (to my chagrin).
But Bob is growing older and so is CJ and who knows if generation XYZ will take the same bait their parents. Music styles change fast. And, even though some in the SBTS seems enamored, I don’t think Devon has the chops of his dad.
Interesting news about the church in Merthyr. They were pretty die-hard followers at one time. One of the pastors there recently married a girl from CLC and another pastor has many friendships back at Covfel and CLC, and is especially close to Dave Harvey. However, the senior pastor at Merthyr was not trained in the PC and came from outside SGM.
With Pete Greasly still winning with SGM, it must put a little damper on relationships among the saints in Wales, who all have an especially long history with one another. I feel badly about that and hope they all prosper in the faith.
It is so grieving to observe how CJ’s sin has strained relations in over 100 churches…when will he repent?
February 2nd, 2013 at 2:22 am
Sam McGee #406 -- Interesting list. And CLC scores 100% on that test and earns extra credit points. Amazing to read that! Thank you.
February 2nd, 2013 at 7:38 am
Just one tithing Christian music superstar could certainly refill sgm coffers quickly….
February 2nd, 2013 at 8:31 am
I think we need to remember God is in the details. It doesn’t matter how many celebrity elbows they rub or how deep their pockets get (and those are about to be picked clean by the lawsuit) …God is in the process of dismantling SGM…this worship of man…this self-made idol will be torn down brick by brick. I believe there will be many “individual” stories come out of this displaying God’s love, grace, and mercy for His children…of restoration and reconciliation…but corporately they’re through. I believe God is going to give back to some of those pastors who have been discarded by SGM’s heavy handedness…ministries that will promote the Kingdom of God and not some cheap man-made, non-holy spirit filled “movement”. And to those who have been abused and oppressed God will return to them all the “Canker Worm and Moth” have eaten…and then some. We are about to witness “ICABOD” nailed over the SGM mantel.
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:41 am
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4403731&page=1
This is an interesting article about depression in Utah. You’ll notice some parallels with the Mormon culture of perfection.
February 2nd, 2013 at 12:43 pm
I’m not so sure christian celebs will want to be associated with a church in the midst of a child sex abuse scandal, brainwashing, and thousands of broken people online telling all.
It will be a good litmus test for the celeb as well. The “Christian” music scene is already pretty suspect, but if singers want to join SGM and remove all doubt for the rest of us, it does make telling the good ones from the bad ones a lot easier for those among us trying to make such distinctions.
February 2nd, 2013 at 12:52 pm
“CJ brought so many musicians and sound team members along with him to KY that I assumed it meant that he would continue to use the SGM music ministry as a key to keeping SGM viable. It was sneaky but, effective. Strategically planting future churches where SGM worship music can prosper is probably his plan, too. Many Christians do sing SGM songs. We even hear them every so often at our new church (to my chagrin).”
There is another angle to this…SBTS. They completely changed their excellent decades old music programs to resemble SGM style approach and call it “worship” ministry. Not sure how it might work, but that might be the safest SGM/SBTS merger and gives Mahaney a sort of legacy to dine out on.
February 2nd, 2013 at 1:02 pm
Imalone 421
I am guessing Bob and Devon will refrain from singing prophetic songs at SBTS. Songs for ‘all the bald men’ and ‘women named Kathy’ might not go over too well with the Baptists.
February 2nd, 2013 at 1:17 pm
“am guessing Bob and Devon will refrain from singing prophetic songs at SBTS. Songs for ‘all the bald men’ and ‘women named Kathy’ might not go over too well with the Baptists.”
I am afraid I have no idea what this means. I was thinking more along the lines of method. Kauflin can always write lyrics for his intended audiences. But the fact remains, if Mohler likes a thing, so will the YRR contingent in the SBC who are quickly taking over the leadership of many entities.
February 2nd, 2013 at 1:21 pm
“And here SGM has had two generations to instill dynamics of power, fear, and control by turning individuals into scapegoats and gradually turning up the heat of compliance for the church and network as a whole.”
This is key. Yes several generations is all you need before it is so ingrained one can hardly see it in their situation. In fact, we see this thinking now with those churches who are leaving SGM. But really, the foundational thinking has not changed at all. Example is Josh Harris who was raised in this cultic culture and knows nothing else. The fact that leaders in the same culture clash is no indicator foundational thinking has changed.
An indicator that thinking has changed is voluntarily leaving any ministry position. But that is unlikely. What else could they do to earn a living?
February 2nd, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Never 413:
What is so typical of SGM is their re-inventing themselves when it is to their advantage. BK has proclaimed on numerous occasions his dislike for Country Music. In the PDI/SGM music world, there has always been a looking down at “Christian Music” -- Even CJ used to boast that BK is so much better off doing worship over contemporary Christian music (CCM) as he did with Glad. Most everyone up there near Nashville falls into one of those 2 categories. (CCM or Country)
Meanwhile, back at the reformed ranch, BK tones down his prophetic playing and just plays piano at some of the events he was invited to early on (A few years ago) because they didn’t want the RBDs to think of them as charismatic, which of course, is a big negative for them. I really wonder if BK, who was so gifted as a musician and prophetic leader, still lets loose. I think that mantle has passed to Todd Twining, who left Metro Life in Orlando a while ago.
February 2nd, 2013 at 2:42 pm
Imalone…
at the Indiana Celebration in maybe 96 or 97 they had a prophetic song for men named Bill. I knew a wife with a hub named Bill, she was soooo happy. I mean, God singled out a very special group for a special prophetic song.
I missed the prophecy for Kathy…although there was a prophecy for redheads that I heard about but I don’t think I was there. Must have been on duty with the kiddos. Not sure if “God” gave it in words or with a melody.
I can’t believe we stayed another couple years in the face of such stupidity. I believe in non canonical prophecy but SGM wasn’t it. Well, maybe the occasional Dan Welch or Linda Redrup that seemed to be the real thing…..but not a geat deal of it.
Remember the Celebration where CJ turned to Bob K and told him God had told CJ that Bob had a prophetic song, and Bob cracked a line asking why God hadn’t told him? You could see the pressure on Bob and he finally caved and started to sing something. We were so creeped out at the time watching what we thought was a really nice guy being manipulated to supposedly sing a prophecy direct from the Holy Spirit, when obviously it was the flesh.
That Celebration was when I started to feel “rebellious” and could not stop it. It was so obvious that something was terribly wrong when it came to the so called work of the Holy Spirit on stage.
February 2nd, 2013 at 3:02 pm
Brent Detwiler has another post up: http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/2/1/they-loved-praise-from-men-more-than-praise-from-god.html
February 2nd, 2013 at 3:16 pm
Am I understanding this right? BK would pretend to sing a “prophetic song” to “people with red hair” or “people named bill?”
And this went on for YEARS before people started calling BS?
What kind of indoctrination took place over years for people to condone this nonsense? I’m so surprised that BK wasn’t laughed off the stage for such shenanigans.
These guys are shameful. No way these guys don’t know they are simply making it up with scams as bold as “songs for people named Bill.” But I suppose if you have been pulling these stunts for years, you just become more and more bold.
I wonder if they ever wink at each other backstage and say, “watch THIS one!” before they do that stuff.
February 2nd, 2013 at 3:36 pm
Concerned, i went to almost all of the Celebration east conferences, and, yes, it happened for years. At least the last 3 or 4, anyway, before they stopped having Celebration. I don’t recall details of the earlier conferences, they might go back years. They were’t always silly like for guy’s named Bill. And by the way, even Bob did not go there, and quickly changed the song to being for guy’s named William. I think it was clear he knew he just could not sing to Bills. But that is what the spirit told CJ to tell him to do! :) But more often the songs were for divorced people, single moms, people with life-long illnesses (maybe) and stuff like that. But yes, bald people, people w/ certain names, hair color, nothing seemed weird to CJ, but it was often clear Bob felt WAY put on the spot, and he might make a little comment and CJ would giggle, like “i got ya!”
February 2nd, 2013 at 3:48 pm
Re: the “prophetic” songs-
How did the crowd react? Did people just lap this made-up stuff up?
I’m growing more and more concerned about how much real brainwashing may be occurring without people realizing.
February 2nd, 2013 at 4:14 pm
haha -- I was at celebration for the prophetic song for bald men. I hated those prophetic songs….cj would tell Bob that God gave him a song..and then bob would make up some diddy. Stupid to do that and claim it was God. Crazy. The song for the abused and hurting never came but that was ok. I am sure God is more concerned about the feelings of bald people. I think that was the same year God challenged single men to get busy finding a wife (not sure).
February 2nd, 2013 at 4:31 pm
I remember the redheads and one for people named Mary.
Didn’t someone say here once that they used to work in the office with Bob and helped him write some of these so called “prophetic” songs in advance? Does anyone remember this?
Makes me wonder if Bob looking put on the spot or nervous about CJ making him sing these songs were even more a show than we think.
February 2nd, 2013 at 5:12 pm
concerned- we spoke to our pastor about a litany of CJ observations. My husband was disgusted.
We were assured that CJ had men close to him working with him on his weak spots. (we know from the docs how well that went). Plus, CJ was starting to relate to Piper and Grudem, so we knew they would help him to be a more solid and less whacky charismatic. (you have to admit he pretty much threw the Holy Spirit out entirely as time went by).
If- like us- you were happy in small group and with the local pastors, CJ didn’t bother you all that much as long as you didn’t watch him on the stage. Your church was fine and good and not affected. uh huh. Took us a few years to get our eyes open.
From what I saw, the people in the target groups for songs felt really special and touched, and God cared about them. The untouched longed to also get a special word from God; I mean, yes we had the bible but it wasn’t exactly as much of a special word as a prophetic word….even though the scripture assurances are infallible and modern prophecy is not.
We were a mess, really. That is why I counsel people to wait a few years minimum to consider going to any SGM church that pulls out. There has to be deep repentance and detoxing.
February 2nd, 2013 at 5:14 pm
I can’t believe I’m hearing this about the Bills, Marys, Redheads…I had no idea…no clue. This is no different than PTL Club right before it’s fall. Pride, arrogance, and idolatry is in control here. Men supporting a man who is not hearing from the Holy Spirit…not hearing from God…in order to protect their livelihoods their reputations. I suspect when God really begins throwing the “hidden” stuff out of these folks closets the real tale will be told. Only thing left will be smoldering ashes. I reckon when they’re all out of jobs they’ll just have to do what we do…look for real jobs.
February 2nd, 2013 at 5:22 pm
What always got me about the “prophetic words” at our particular SGM church was that they were without risk, so generic as to be meaningless. OR, someone would just feel led to read a particular passage out of Isaiah or something.
Nothing wrong whatsoever about providing time during a Sunday meeting for people to come up and read scripture or speak generically encouraging words to the audience…but it was just not prophecy as prophecy occurred in the Bible. I even found myself wondering after awhile what the purpose was for the microphone watchdog. At first, I’d thought the watchdog was a great idea, another symptom of the “balance” SGM brought to charismatic stuff. But then it started to seem sort of silly to me, like who was this watchdog guy, anyway? What made him the arbiter of which verses from Isaiah were permissable to read and which ones weren’t? It wasn’t like anyone ever said anything particularly specific or controversial at all. And certainly never anything specifically predictive!
It just felt powerless, like little more than a waste of time, a way to placate those who wanted to believe SGM was charismatic but had somehow managed to achieve that doctrinal “balance” they were so proud of.
February 2nd, 2013 at 5:56 pm
Kris -- Microphone watchdog…lol. I thought our church was the only one’s doing that…like you, I assumed it was in place to maintain balance and order…you know, keeping out the snake handlers and such. I thought it was a reasonable act put in place by our “local” reasonable leaders…I didn’t know it was a “blanket” ordinance for all SGM churches. What’s upsetting is the lack of discernment by members…I assure you that almost all members at my former SGM church believe every ordinance (i.e. microphone watchdog), every routine and ritual are a direct result from that church’s decisions…that every decision is made, for the most part, from the pastors of that church. The pastors are always emphasizing to the members that they have full control on how their church is run and operated…they go out of their way to emphasize it. I already knew that was another crap sandwich they were trying to feed me…but I’m beginning to believe they actually believe they are in full control of their church when in fact they’re just carbon copies of all the other SGM church’s…for the most part anyway.
February 2nd, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Just read brent’s latest post, detailing some of the child sexual abuse charges against the leadership and SGM.
Brent says, “These charges come as no surprise to me.”
My question is this -- why didn’t BRENT say something about the child abuse YEARS AGO (i.e. before he lost his seat on the gravy train) if he is not surprised by child abuse charges?
Or was it simply literary melodramatic license when he said it came as no surprise to find that pastoral staff had been personally sexually abusing children?
Grateful for Brent, and his role in exposing the slime, but still befuddled by his lack of awareness around his own hand in keeping this wreck on the rails for 20 years.
February 2nd, 2013 at 7:02 pm
There have been “microphone watchdogs” for as far back as I can remember (early ’90s) and at all three franchises we attended as well as Celebrations.
They are consistent if nothing else.
February 2nd, 2013 at 9:52 pm
concerned: Brent has indicated several times that he was unaware of the spousal or child abuse that occurred. I think he meant that given their character or past behavior he is not surprised because it is consistent with men who love their own praise.
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:12 pm
Brent is also not surprised that there was a cover-up. It was covered-up so well that, according to him, even HE did not know about it. Seems hard to believe, but this is what he has said.
February 2nd, 2013 at 10:37 pm
So, here is the latest list I have. I would like to see additional confirmations for Corning & Whales:
So far, there are 15:
VA (4): Charlottesville (Berault), Arlington (Simmons), Fairfax (Mullery) Chesapeake/Virginia Beach (Hughes)
FL (4): Daytona Beach (Jarvis), St. Pete (Cisar), Sarasota (Nguyen), Miami (Prado)
CA (3): Pleasonton (Shin), San Francisco (Kurth), San Diego (Lauterbach)
Canada (1): Surrey, BC(Pat Sczebel)
MD (1): CLC (Harris)
NY (1): Corning (Snapp)
UK (1): Sovereign Grace Church of Merthyr (Garreth Lloyd)
February 2nd, 2013 at 11:07 pm
Jenn Grover,
I’d caveat the VA list to indicate that all but 1 (maybe 2?) of the entire FFX pastoral staff are listed individually as defendants in a serious lawsuit. Not to mention the whole joint being a defendant.
February 2nd, 2013 at 11:14 pm
I also remember at CLC when there was a big move of the spirit and we started having people come to the front and be prayed for through the laying on of hands and people would fall on the floor in the spirit or be laughing in the spirit…but the part that concerns me is how CJ announced one week that this was going to happen at CLC and the next week people were laughing and falling where that hadn’t happened before. Looking back it was as weird as Bob’s prophetic songs.
February 3rd, 2013 at 12:08 am
Terry, I agree and believe CJ’s weirdness is evidence that “icabod” is already operative in his life. I wonder if a total breakdown is looming, and what that would look like.
February 3rd, 2013 at 12:19 am
@#407. . . A new plant in Franklin? Isn’t Larry’s church there????