The following article is from the Associated Press:
By ERIC TUCKER, Associated Press–12 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AP) — A small evangelical Christian denomination called Sovereign Grace Ministries was already grappling with fractured leadership, outside scrutiny of its policies and public criticism from former members when a new round of problems emerged.
A lawsuit last fall brought by former members accused church officials of covering up allegations of child sexual abuse committed by its members. Then a onetime member of the church’s former flagship congregation was indicted in December on charges that he molested multiple boys in the 1980s while involved in youth ministries.
The church hasn’t yet answered the specific accusations, but has signaled that it may lean on the First Amendment — a defense that religious institutions have used repeatedly and with some limited success in the last decade to inoculate themselves from sex abuse claims.
A statement issued in response to the lawsuit, filed in Maryland, says permitting courts to second-guess confidential advice given by church leaders to congregation members would “represent a blow to the First Amendment.”
“We are saddened that lawyers are now, in essence, seeking to violate those rights by asking judges and juries, years after such pastoral assistance was sought, to dictate what sort of biblical counsel they think should have been provided,” the statement said. The church’s formal response to the lawsuit, due Monday, is expected to provide a window into its legal strategy.
The First Amendment argument, advanced by some legal scholars, derives from a belief that churches ought to be considered autonomous, self-governing institutions whose internal decision-making is off-limits to secular courts. Religious institutions, including the Roman Catholic Church, have invoked the Constitution in arguing that they shouldn’t be liable for the hiring or supervision of a priest facing abuse allegations.
“To the extent there’s a First Amendment issue they’re talking about, it is not about sexual abuse as a First Amendment right. It is about the church deciding for itself how to respond to claims of misconduct among its members,” said Douglas Laycock, a University of Virginia law professor who specializes in the law of religious liberty.
Marci Hamilton, a church-state expert at the Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, said she was aware of only three states — Utah, Missouri and Wisconsin — whose highest courts have recognized the First Amendment as a barrier for pursuing church sex abuse claims. But that hasn’t stopped religious institutions in other states from raising the same arguments, at least as an initial line of defense.
“One of the goals here in the litigation is for the defendant to intimidate the judges into being fearful of violating the Constitution if they apply the law to them. There was an era when these kinds of arguments would have been intimidating,” Hamilton said.
The principle isn’t new but it has been tested time and again in the decade since the Catholic church sex abuse scandal broke.
“From our point of view, they are often more successful than they should be,” said David Clohessy of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. “Very simply in our view, the First Amendment says you can believe whatever you’d like but not behave however you’d like. And tragically, especially in child sex abuse cases, many religious figures try to blur that difference and exploit the First Amendment for selfish purposes.”
With some limited exceptions, most courts haven’t been receptive to the argument.
The Tennessee Supreme Court ruled last year that a man who said he was abused by a priest in the 1970s could proceed with his lawsuit against the Catholic Diocese of Memphis, which had argued that secular courts lacked jurisdiction over its hiring decisions.
The Catholic diocese in Burlington, Vt., fending off a recent sex abuse lawsuit, cited the First Amendment in 2011 in warning that a stream of cases carrying multi-million dollar judgments threatened to shut down the church and impede “the Catholic faithful in the free and unhindered exercise of religion.” A judge called the argument in that particular case premature and allowed it to move forward. It has since settled
“The liability cannot be so extensive that the church can be put out of business,” Thomas McCormick, a lawyer for the diocese, said in describing the defense.
There was some movement in Wisconsin in 2007, when the state Supreme Court — which had earlier held that the First Amendment shields churches from lawsuits for negligent supervision of priests — ruled that the Archdiocese of Milwaukee could be sued for fraud in sex abuse cases.
The U.S. Supreme Court, asked recently to weigh in on the issue, declined last year to take up an appeal of a Missouri state court ruling in favor of the Archdiocese of St. Louis, which had similarly relied on a First Amendment defense against sex abuse claims.
In Maryland, lawyers for Sovereign Grace Ministries, which was established in 1982 and says it has more than 80 congregations in its fold, either declined to comment about their legal strategy or didn’t return phone messages. Besides suggesting a possible First Amendment defense, the church group has attacked the lawsuit as containing misleading allegations and “mischaracterizations of intent.” The church invoked the First Amendment in a November statement posted on its website, but didn’t reference it in a subsequent statement issued in response to new allegations last month.
The suit filed in October accuses church officials of concealing sex abuse committed by its members and of discouraging victims from reporting allegations to the police. The case was initially brought on behalf of three women associated with the church, including one who says she was molested as a child and then directed by church officials to meet with the man she accused of assaulting her. More plaintiffs have been added, and a former member of the church’s flagship congregation, Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Md., was indicted on sex abuse charges in December.
The civil and criminal allegations are the latest problem for a church riven by disputes among leaders and external criticism over its handling of sex abuse claims and its emphasis on sin and redemption. Covenant Life Church in December ended its association with Sovereign Grace Ministries, which moved its headquarters last year to Louisville, Ky.
Laycock, the law professor, said the First Amendment defense may not prevail, but that courts in a case like this nonetheless should be wary of assigning liability in knee-jerk fashion.
“Are they responsible for what their members did, if they failed to act vigorously enough? They may be, but that’s an issue that a court actually needs to think through with some care.”
February 25th, 2013 at 1:04 pm
Mother’s Day has always been the most painful day of the year for me. I dreaded attending that service because I felt like such a failure as a Christian mother. From girlhood on I felt the call of God on my life. My parents were not church attenders but as a young teenager I began to walk alone in any weather to attend Sunday school and church. I accepted the Lord and thrived in that little country church. I joined the IHS club for girls (I am HIS) and had a real and intimate encounter with my Lord. Beginning with that early experience my whole family eventually turned to God. I can not tell when exactly but I began to build a picture in my mind that my only role as a follower of Jesus was to be a perfect wife and mother. I had a coherent vision of how each day should be and sought the Lord with my TOTAL focus as a person on who to marry and how to be a Christian woman. “Pick a date fit for a mate” was my learned motto. If the church said “do this” I did. There were no purity rings in those days but my (still wonderful) husband and I were both committed from day one to living out the concepts as best we could with God’s help to be faithful spouses and parents. We kept the tenets of the faith and waited for marriage. Sure I grew up in a “Leave it to Beaver--Father Knows Best time, but it was DEEP in my being that I just wanted to be a godly Mom. Despite being an excellent student who would have easily qualified for academic and needs based scholarships for college, I chose with my father’s directive to attend a nearby 3 year nursing school. I never expected to work, but thought this would be a good training ground for motherhood as I waited for “THE ONE” God had for me. Fast forward. By my mid 20′s I am indeed married to the one the Lord had for me (thank you Lord) and I am a new mom. We had waited 3 long years for that little boy but along the way we realized that I would need to keep working “for a while.” My husband is a teacher at a Christian college. While there might be a certain small honor at being a college professor, we regarded his “job” as a true calling and ministry. I mention “honor” because there certainly was no wealth. Even after the birth of our 3rd son we found it needful for me to keep working. This was the late 70′s and with both our salaries we earned a family income of$15,000 in the Philadelphia area where the PER CAPITA income was $19,000 at the time! We were too proud but could have qualified for free lunches for the children. When the college hired my husband we were told” Sorry! We know this is not a living wage but your wife is a nurse and she can make up the difference. After all, all the wives at the school but one work. She is disabled.” Fast forward again to late 80′s. All three of our kids have learning disabilities and of course I felt it was “my fault” for being a working mom. I need not describe our daily challenges or tell about our heart aches. We know now that one of the boys had Aspberger’s syndrome. Church was certainly not a place to expect comfort or support for OUR family. We after all were not trusting the Lord for mom to stay home and did anyone notice our children were not perfect? Oh yes! They noticed. (P. S. I am a proud mother with three wonderful sons who are kind and caring just like their dad!) Fast forward to 1990. We arrived at the door of Covenant Fellowship with our youngest son in tow--a teenager. The music drew us from the parking lot. Imagine a couple of the “frozen chosen” learning to “lift holy hands” and really rejoice in corporate worship. Early on at CFC we attended a series called “Burnt Embers.” We learned that church was not always a safe place and sometimes Christians could be hurt and burnt by the church but we would be loved and healed at CFC.” We joined largely based on that series. We jumped into our assigned caregroup and continued with our always faithful tithing. During that period we personally began to feel a burden for international students. We began to host students in our home rent free (they had to have their own phones :)) while they attended college. We enjoyed meals. picnics. holiday dinners, carpooling to Celebrations and attending services with them. About the fourth year in we received a phone call from AR instructing us to meet him at his CFC office. We were told that CFC had decided to start a ministry to internationals and we were chosen to lead it. There was just “one thing!” “Some one told me you go about teaching that it is ok for women to work outside the home,” AR sternly spoke while looking at me! It felt like a slap in the face but I knew instantly what he was referring to. One of those painful Mother’s Days as I stood in line for the restrooms at church I saw another lady that I knew was a working mom.. given that the sermon was on this topic, I was feeling low and near tears. This lady actually worked at the school where my husband taught and I thought she might have some words of comfort or tell me how she handled this situation. I can still see her cold stare as she turned her back on me. (I want to insert here that I am a very private person and a little socially shy so my approach to her was tentative and low key for sure.) Had I known then about “the files” I would not have been so surprised that a 60 second private exchange could be thrown in my face 2 years afterwards! AR grilled me with questions for about 30 minutes before he reluctantly acknowledged that I was being truthful about my attitudes and reasons for working. My husband defended me and affirmed me through out the interrogation and then pointed something else out to AR. Namely that he appreciated my contribution to his calling to minister to college age people. He explained that actually the majority of students in christian colleges are females preparing for careers. Eventually AR seemed to indicate that we were passing the “vetting” but that I would need to stop working were we to “serve” in the ministry of theirs. Mind you. I had been in AR’s home on several occasions because I was a nurse and could “serve” him and his wife so they could have a break from caring for a terminally ill relative. Since his eye contact was mainly with me I spoke up. “Perhaps we were not the right choice for this new ministry. Maybe an international would be better?” “Well, WHAT will YOU do?” he demanded. “We will just keep doing what we’ve been doing” I said. He actually snorted out loud and kept mumbling to himself in an incredulous voice, “We’ll just keep doing what we’ve been doing?!” We left the office and they did select an international student--one we knew well and we were happy for him. That day was like a scab ripped off a wound in my soul. So sad on so MANY levels. We stayed nearly 2 more years, watching the death of the marriage of our caregroup leader and many other progressively more difficult things. The erosion of our trust was as many here on this blog have described. Eventually we could no longer support them with our tithe. We did not “leave well” but no one noticed. I am finally retired. I have had time to reflect and repent and process the pain and “forgive” my husband and my God for not giving me my daydreams. What He DID give me was a stable, kind egalitarian and deeply Christian husband. And if I did have to work. at least I spent 40 plus years being able to give more that just physical care to my patients. I have had time to examine the “great lie” that there is only ONE way for a Christian woman to live. We need an affirming ministry for families where the mother must work. If they church cannot affirm working Christian women then at least please return out tithes—there are some women’s shelter that need the funding! I am still basically a shy and private person. I am going back to “lurking” —”I’ll just keep doing what I’ve been doing :)” SGMsurvivors has been real help to me in sorting out some of the PTSD of attending church today. I don’t expect to ever “join” another church but as the Eve said in the CS Lewis novel Perelandra “Ah, I am growing wiser.” We will not attend any kind of small group but continue to love and appreciate attending weekly worship and giving generously to the churches ministries and our favorite charity, Compassion International!
February 25th, 2013 at 1:09 pm
QE2 -- “But my point would be, using your situation, that the other guys in your church would not be appreciating his “male leadership”, just his leadership. So I am confused about why the ladies should focus on him being a “male” leader while the men just look at his leadership skills and not the fact that he is a male.” I can’t answer for other ladies. But, for me, unless you walked in my shoes for the last 40 years you wouldn’t understand why I talk like I do. I could care less if a woman is a good leader…ok I would care…but it wouldn’t amaze me. I have not been abused by women leaders. I have been horribly abused by male leaders from the day I was born. It makes a difference to me because it has actually made me not resent the male race. It has made me realize that good made men good but they are subject to sin just like women are. It has made me confident. There is just no way I could explain to you what it means to me to have a male in my life that is a servant leader, that values me, that serves me….I cry even typing this. Without my experiences you wouldn’t understand. I can tell you that none of the other women in my church would connect the two. They would just say he is a great leader. My church experience before SGM was even worse than SGM -- serious amounts of control. To what I watched on TV, telling my parents to stay out of my life because I was no longer their concern, stealing from me. And, the men I grew up with were physically and sexually abusive. So, yes, for me having a male be a good leader…it is life changing. It has changed my sense of value and worth and helped me celebrate how God made me. For me that wouldn’t have happened with a good female leader. The men in my church (not just my pastor) have made me see men different that’s all.
February 25th, 2013 at 1:17 pm
You know, it’s funny…I think if all of us in happy marriages were to sit down and compare notes, we’d probably find a lot of the same trends -- mutual consideration, a logical dividing up of daily chores and family responsibilities based upon natural gifting rather than rigid gender roles, wives who honor and respect their husbands, husbands who love and sacrifice for their wives. In some ways, while marriage can have its challenging times on occasion, the basic premise is not that hard. It’s not that difficult or complicated. Love each other, appreciate each other, do your best to minimize the little things the other person does that bug you (because you know you can be just as irritating yourself), pay attention to each other, listen to each other, share your thoughts and some kind, uplifting words every day.
It’s really not that hard.
I think labels like “complementarianism” and “egalitarianism” only serve to muddy the waters when we move beyond the larger spirit of the law and get down to the nitty-gritty of the practical. In much the same way as the Pharisees could not get over Jesus’ occasional lack of hand-washing, or the disciples’ picking grain to eat on the sabbath, both the comps and the egals go off the rails when they start saying the “right” way must correspond with certain specific behaviors.
SGM has been a particularly fertile hothouse for this kind of legalistic abuse because of one major assumption that is at the root of almost everything CJ & Co have ever promoted: the idea that certain specific behaviors performed while accompanied by certain specific words said in certain specific ways will equal godliness.
SGM pastors (CJ in particular, but all the guys he trained, all the guys who looked up to him) were always quick to give specific suggestions for how to “walk out” (SGM cliché) certain more general principles. Like, with SGM’s complementarian beliefs, there was the idea that husbands were supposed to lead their wives. (What’s interesting is that as far as I know, there is NOT any specific Bible passage that expressly instructs husbands to lead their wives. It’s sort of implied in the passage about how wives ought to obey their husbands, and it’s also one way you could look at the verse that says that the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church. But there’s no express command telling husbands to lead. It’s something we have to extrapolate.)
But SGM has always been good at this sort of extrapolation, to the point where many would think there is some Bible verse that actually does command husbands to lead their wives. So SGM teaches that husbands need to lead…and then proceeds to give very specific ways that the husband ought to lead. For a long while, some SGM pastors were pretty rigid about the necessity of the husband’s taking control and managing the details of the family finances. It didn’t matter whether the husband was more of a big picture person and if the wife had had training to be a CPA -- no, if you were the husband, you were supposed to balance the checkbook. This was part of leading.
Wives were taught to take on the same sort of soft-spoken ladylike aura of Carolyn Mahaney as part of their obedience to the teachings on submission. Having a “gentle and quiet spirit” (an actual biblical command for women) began to look like speaking in a certain Carolyn-esque tone of voice, gazing adoringly at one’s husband while he spoke, and doing one’s best to agree with one’s husband no matter what.
The big ideas of love and respect got all tangled up with the specific outward behaviors taught by SGM leaders.
I was thinking about a conversation I had with a former SGMer who was explaining to me the details of what “Date Night” was supposed to be like for the SGM couple. Apparently, at one point in time, there were some pretty widespread teachings about what ought to happen on the SGM couple’s weekly date night. There were topics that were supposed to be addressed, as well as topics that were off limits. Like, there wasn’t supposed to be discussion of the husband’s job, or of the wife’s homeschooling of the children. There WAS supposed to be discussion of sin, with helpful confrontations about various sins each spouse may have observed in the other.
And of course all of this was supposed to be done with the husband leading and the wife following, with her gaze fixed adoringly on her husband as he spoke, and her voice modulated in the proper ladylike Carolyn-esque way.
If you went through all these motions, you were supposed to have a godly marriage…even though all those extrapolations about leading and male-controlled finances and the wife’s adoring acqueiscent gaze and the off-limits conversation topics have absolutely nothing to do with the bigger idea of husbands who lay down their lives and live sacrifically for their wives, and wives who respectfully submit to their husbands.
We can see SGM’s off-kilter focus on (and assumptions about) the importance of certain outward behaviors in many other areas of life, not just marriage. Worship, for instance, was supposed to look a certain way. People were exhorted to be “expressive” in worship, with raised hands, frequent spoken responses to songs (can’t you just hear CJ’s voice calling out, “Yes!” during a worship song?), random “spontaneous” clapping, even some modulated dancing. SGM pastors took this stuff seriously. At SGM’s former flagship church, Covenant Life, the music ministry devoted lots of time to evaluating video tapes of the worship teams as they did their thing. People would be critiqued for how “genuinely” they appeared to express themselves as they worshipped.
Families could even be judged for how well their children appeared to be engaging in “expressive” worship. One story that was told to me was about a pastor whose teen son was deemed “possibly not even saved” because he was apparently not expressive enough during worship time when other pastors and organizational leaders were watching.
Avoiding sexual immorality was also distilled down to extrapolated specific behaviors. We can see this in the more rigid, ludicrous ways the courtship system worked out. For awhile, it was quite important for a couple to save their first kiss for the altar…and make sure, somehow, that the people around them all were aware that it was their first kiss. Somehow, if you were a guy, honoring God with your body by keeping yourself sexually pure evolved into a complex legalism that meant you had to view all members of the opposite sex as sisters until you were ready to marry one of them, and then you had to make your intentions known to your target gal’s father, even if you weren’t even 100% sure you’d like the girl if you got to spend a lot of time alone with her. If you were a girl, maintaining scripturally-ordained sexual purity meant hiding any real feelings of attraction you may have until some guy decided he was interested in you and your father had given him the go-ahead. Then you could let loose with your feelings of attraction.
Because, it was all about outward behaviors and living life in very specific ways. In SGM, outward behaviors were indicative of a person’s spiritual condition. If you sucked up to the right leaders, putting yourself down and harping on your own sinfulness in the exactly right slightly humor-filled way, you were considered humble…even if you actually were doing this because you were filled to the brim with self-serving puffed-up selfish ambition.
I don’t think I’ll ever stop finding SGM’s culture incredibly fascinating. This one big piece -- the idea that particular actions equal particular character traits and indicate one’s spiritual maturity and holiness -- is particularly interesting to me.
February 25th, 2013 at 1:39 pm
QE2: “Oh, that rascal Jesus…”
Love it! You made me chuckle!
February 25th, 2013 at 1:53 pm
Dearest Mary,
I hope you do not think I am singling you out or just commenting about your situation. I am think very generally here, and I understand what you are saying is specific. I am so happy that you have found men who embody what God was thinking when he made men! I think your story shows the glory of God-when we, made in his image, truly live as he intended us to live, both as men or women and as individuals, the goodness of God resonates within us and others see it and rejoice too!
February 25th, 2013 at 2:01 pm
Dear “My SGM story,”
Thank you for telling your story. I am sorry that you went through those harsh experiences at the SGM church. I am sure that in your career as a nurse you have done a lot of good in the world.
I know how you feel about not wanting to “join” another church or take part in a small group. I like going to the little Baptist church we attend now, but I don’t feel in a hurry to “join.” (They count us as theirs, anyway--in a good way.) I am sure their small groups are good, but I am antsy about going to one, so I recently gave myself permission not to try a small group yet.
Just getting to know people feels like a stretch. Just being able to count people as friends. Of course I was so lonely in “our” SGM church for so many years, because I was hidden.
And 28 years gone, I feel with you when you mention “most of my adult life.” It’s so weird to realize that. In some ways I still feel so young and unsure. (Oh well, I’ll gladly take the “young” part…)
So much to still mull over and wrestle with.
February 25th, 2013 at 2:30 pm
My SGM Story 201
I am so sorry for the abusive counsel you were given at CFC. Unfortunately, your experience has been had by many who did not walk lock-step in the SGM ideal.
Sometimes I compare and contrast our new church with CLC and I am frequently reminded of how legalistic CLC was. Pastors there would tell us that ‘because CLC was the flagship church” we had to be more of an example to others”. Ha, could be that is why CLC pastors were experts at the turn of the screw.
Unfortunately, the current fruit of such rigid-thinking, is a growing graveyard of the young marriages, of children of founding families. I suggest that the next time CLC members are told how to court, how to prepare for marriage and precisely how to conduct date nights with your spouse, they should ask the pastors why they think that those dictates will work for them if they didn’t work in so many other marriages? The pastors often point to the successful marriages but they somehow neglect to give the full picture. I grieve for the next generation.
February 25th, 2013 at 2:51 pm
Deb @191 — I think the way you and your husband live your life together shows that each of you complements the other. You have found what works best for you and go with it.
Kris @203 — I agree that the labels of ‘comp’ and ‘egal’ have indeed muddied the waters by becoming a ‘to do’ list that may or may not work for any given couple. We all need to trust in God’s word to guide us and not look to any person or organization to lead. Talking among ourselves is often helpful, as we see here, but in the end, we need to trust our own judgement of what best works for our own family.
February 25th, 2013 at 3:07 pm
QE2 #205…amen to that!!!!
February 25th, 2013 at 4:07 pm
MySGMStory,
My heart went out to you while I read your story. Thank you for the 40 years you spent serving the sick. I can’t imagine all the people you helped. What a way to love God and love others!
I am afraid I know some of the people you wrote about, rather well. Right down to the woman who turned her back on you in the bathroom line. That must have felt awful, especially as you were reaching out and making yourself vulnerable. I, also, had no idea there were ever records kept on us, records of conversations we had assumed were intimate and private. What a shock it was to me as I read on here what went on in our homegroup leader’s own meetings with pastors! What betrayal. It still makes me kind of sick to think of “friends” sharing things I had shared with them, without warning me that they were sharing such intimate thoughts. (Thus, the name Stunned.)
I respect and appreciate your desire to remain anonymous. We were in Cov Fel at the time that you were and like I said, I knew a few of the people you mentioned in your story. I was a nobody, but I was a nobody for 15 years there, so we may know each. If you’d ever like to contact me to say hello or to be able to commiserate on the “joys” of being a square peg in a round Covenant Fellowship, you can reach me at notaloneanymore1 at gmail dot com. If you write, you don’t have to tell me who you are. I guess I am just hoping we can have some contact sometime as I find a comfort in other Cov Fel-ers. I am not sure why. I think there were some great people there and it normally gives me some pleasure in getting to communicate with people in the church I left only because I was kicked out, back in 2001.
February 25th, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Stunned. I have read your testimony somewhere along the line here or at Refuge, I don’t recall exactly where. However, I was not aware that you were “kicked out, back in 2001.” Kicked out, how if I may ask.
February 25th, 2013 at 4:36 pm
Stunned 210
CLC pastors have kept copious records on members for at least 30 years. And, I have no reason to believe that they have changed that practice. One reputable source told me last year that their files on individuals would shock the most jaded ex-member.
In our experience, pastors would not comply with our request to no longer share details about us with other pastors. Instead, their habit was to expand the circle in an effort to force us to comply with their silly goals. And yet, despite the fact that both their diagnoses and prescriptions were seriously flawed and ineffectual, not one of them ever apologized to us.
Because of our experience, I believe current members should request their paper and computer files and after carefully reading them, they should symbolically burn them in a huge bonfire out back of the building, with the Fire Marshall’s permission of course, since it will be a rather large inferno.
Afterwards, they should insist on absolute privacy in all their interactions with leaders in the church. If the pastors refuse to do that, then members should join churches that do not wield that level of control.
February 25th, 2013 at 5:27 pm
“My SGM Story” -
Thank you for sharing about your experiences. After all this time, not much surprises me, but I’ll confess that I still sometimes find myself feeling surprised when I hear of people who were directly and explicitly told certain things that SGM now claims were never taught.
Like the whole “Women should not work outside the home” tenet -- I know from so many people that pastors actively taught and counseled that being a stay-at-home wife/mom was a better, more godly choice than holding a job outside the home. Yet when problems with these sorts of teachings arose, the common refrain from pastors and other SGM defenders has been that it is the member’s fault for having “misapplied” the teachings/counsel, or having “taken it too far.” The impression they seem to want to give is that not working outside the home was something merely encouraged, not required.
But the stories like yours bring home the reality that these lifestyle issues really weren’t optional…and that pastors did indeed teach expressly and specifically that certain choices were “more godly” than others. Again, it’s not that it should be surprising to hear that this is how it was -- it just brings home the fact that SGM’s defenders are either in deep denial or else are deliberately lying to make their organization look better.
February 25th, 2013 at 6:12 pm
My SGM Story,
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope you and your family find comfort here. Acts 16:11-15 came to mind today. Apparently, Paul had no problem starting a church from a female business owner and her family. One of the criticisms of SGM is that they make law out of specific (and sometimes peculiar) application. The stay-at-home Mom requirement is one of those cases that has no biblical support. Furthermore, it would never work in churches among the urban poor where the majority of Moms have to work.
February 25th, 2013 at 6:36 pm
What happen TRUTH BE TOLD?
No other stupid quips?
February 25th, 2013 at 6:44 pm
QUOTE: “Furthermore, it would never work in churches among the urban poor where the majority of Moms have to work.”
Can I get an amen on that? AMEN!
February 25th, 2013 at 8:06 pm
Persona said,
Uh huh. Right. Considering what they’ve been accused of, do you think they would actually leave a paper trail featuring their long history of non-biblical incompetence? I would suspect that they will have employed the Fawn Hall School of Record Keeping when it come time to pry open the file cabinets to “share evidences of grace”.
It would be interesting to see what’s going out in the garbage at CLC and Fairfax.
February 25th, 2013 at 8:39 pm
Square Peg 216 SGM not only doesn’t work in urban areas because of the working moms. There are street smart folks that are rooted in their local churches. Doesn’t work for a new franchise to move into town all shiny and smiling. Not going to over well. They aren’t going to go church shopping. Also these PC grads how the heck are they going to relate to the city folks. One of the moth attracting lights of SGM isn’t Jesus, but look how pretty my family is and look how much I like you. They are not preaching the gospel in the cities and Christians recognize this, and SGM has nothing to offer the city lost. They don’t have deep pockets to tithe from and these PC grads have no idea how to care for them.The SGM franchise has been designed for the suburban Christian looking for a new church with “gospel” centered music, that preach the cross, I mean Jesus, yeah that’s right Jesus… smile, I like you and I’m glad my kids get to pal around with your kids, yeah….
February 25th, 2013 at 8:40 pm
We were pounded with “use only biblical terms.” In other words, I couldn’t be “frustrated” as frustrated was not in the bible. I must therefore be “angry” and if I was “angry” I must be in sin. Out comes James 4:1 and 2. The kids at our franchise even did songs from James.
So, SGM why are you fighting? What does the Gospel say about you when you try and defend yourself? You have no defense. The Cross says all we need to know about you. There’s nothing good in you. So what’s this sudden proclamation about “rights”? You have no rights at the foot of the Cross. And so it goes…. SGM doesn’t seem to be living very “biblical”, do they?
February 25th, 2013 at 9:22 pm
Diego,
SGM doesn’t work for urban community for a whole host of reasons, not the least of them being you have to extend mercy to a community that isn’t flush with cash to pay you back. When CLC was in the process of abandoning the city, we could only reach out to gang members and street people one or two at a time, often against pastoral advice. There was plenty of grass roots support, but we could never get leadership to support any ongoing ministry.
Fortunately, there are churches doing it well. Last summer we did street ministry with a hip pop group from NCY. Hundreds responded, right on the street. It was wonderful. One of the problems that plagued me as a “model member” of CLC was that I went years at a time without leading someone to the Lord. Anyone else see a similar change in personal evangelism after leaving SGM?
February 25th, 2013 at 10:00 pm
Greg #220, thank you for pointing out the difficulties with SGM trying to “serve” an urban community. Serve seems to always be in quotes with SGM -- they don’t take their cues from Bob Dylan, that’s for sure! They don’t serve ANYONE! Lol!
Just made me think of this song:
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/gottaservesomebody.html
Anyway, someone had posted in a previous topic about disappointment that SGM never planted a church for the poorest victims of Katrina, in Louisiana. Just wanted to point out that that was probably a blessing. Odds are that the people would not be considered worthy of a church, because they could not “pay SGM back”, or support the pastoral staff financially within 1 year, or whatever. I am sure that other ministries are doing a good job there. Thank you for sharing your story about street ministry, Greg. That sounds exciting.
February 26th, 2013 at 12:38 am
One of the strangest things for us when we first started attending a Sovereign Grace church was how many marriages seemed to be so broken. In fact, we actually started thinking something was wrong with our marriage because we didn’t have a lot of conflict. We wondered if we were just really shallow people that hadn’t dug deep enough to figure out where we were sinning in our marriage. I remember going to these marriage talks where it was just assumed that everyone was having trouble and no one was really happy in their marriage. It was a very awkward feeling.
I remember feeling very strange when a pastor asked us how our marriage was and we both said it was actually very good. It almost felt like we had to be lying, and we found ourselves trying to justify why we didn’t have a conflict every week.
Please understand, our marriage is not perfect, but we do enjoy each other (most of the time!). :) We like to go on dates and just be together, talking about nothing and everything. When in SGM, I started to feel guilty that our dates weren’t more purposeful with a list of heart provoking questions to ask each other. Looking back, I would say that there were times I felt some bitterness towards my spouse for not living up to the Godly standards that I heard about in other’s lives, even though I knew that was crazy thinking.
We could never pinpoint exactly what was going on with the marriages in SGM, but reading some of the comments today, it has made me think that maybe it was some sort of unrealistic Godly expectation that each spouse had for the other, that seemed to suck the life and joy out of many SGM marriages. Maybe it was this obsession with self introspection or “marital introspection” that made some marriages so miserable.
I don’t want to diminish the fact that there are many marriages that have very real problems. I get this, and at times, we have had to work through our own issues. I know marriage is not easy, and we have known many couples in different churches that have had marital problems, but it just seemed like an unusually high number in our SGM church.
Now that we are out of SGM, we have asked each other, “How many broken and fractured relationships can one ministry possibly have, not just in marriages, but all different types of relationships?”
February 26th, 2013 at 12:59 am
Hi folks,
Catching up on podcasts this evening while driving home from work and found one from the White Horse Inn on sexual abuse in the church. It’s VERY recent: http://feeds.feedburner.com/WhiteHorseInn -- December 30th. I think it’s worth a listen.
February 26th, 2013 at 3:06 am
Greg No.220.
When I came to an SGM church I actually ceased evangelism having been effective in it for quite a long time. One of the reasons I suspect this happened was that leaders like to ‘process’ all the candidates for heaven.So the job is to lead them to church and they do the rest. Next I noticed that poor or vulnerable people were far less likely to get through the process if indeed they were even invited. It is self regulating once the system is in place….it seemed normal to most people and they notice nothing odd about it. If anyone raised the issue then others speak out saying you are breaking unity with the church…etc..etc.
February 26th, 2013 at 6:48 am
Greg,
Thank you for your testimony and your example of GOD at work in HIS people. I see that once our hearts leave SGM we are able to see Jesus much more clearly and actually walk the walk rather than just shine the shine. Once we take off the SGM colored glasses we can be used for Kingdom purposes rather than CJ purposes.
February 26th, 2013 at 7:50 am
Regarding the record keeping on members -- it would be an interesting experiment to ask CLC pastors if the church keeps records like that.
Would they come clean? Lie to your face? Accuse you of a made up sin like sinful curiosity? If they admit it, then ask to see yours. Interesting conundrum they would find themselves in.
If your church is keeping detailed records of members’ lives, you ARE in a cult. Get help. Get out.
If CLC is keeping detailed records of members’ lives, it IS a cult. Especially when viewed in light of all the other tendencies and cultivate behaviors they have demonstrated. Get help. Get out.
February 26th, 2013 at 8:21 am
The “pastors only talk to husbands” nonsense went so far in our experience that the young man “elder” who called to talk to my husband refused to even properly identify himself to me. For several years now my husband has not answered the phone, and I screen his calls because he is ill. We have recently realized that the illness he has is bi-polar disorder. Yes, this has made our marriage very unusual. I asked “Ben” who he was and why he wanted to talk with my husband, and he would not tell me! He didn’t even explain that he was calling from the church. If your paradigm can’t handle exceptions like my marriage, then your paradigm is faulty. The truth is, all of us are supposed to submit to each other, no one, man or woman, is supposed to “rule over” another, and all of us are supposed to be “quiet and peaceable” aka “silent” in the church. And all of us are given unique gifts to be exercised for the benefit of all, though it is undeniable that men and women have gender-dependant roles in pro-creation.
February 26th, 2013 at 8:27 am
Grace -
Our experience was very similar to yours. At one point while we were part of our SGM church, it was announced that new “marriage groups” would be forming…and the insinuation was that if you were married, you’d be expected to join one. This would be in addition to the regular care groups, so it would mean more meetings. Guy and I agreed that we had no interest in taking on another time commitment, especially one that didn’t sound like it would be very much fun. When a pastor mentioned these new marriage groups and we casually blew them off, I can remember seeing a look of real disapproval on his usually pleasant face.
I did sometimes like we must not be taking things seriously enough or something, or otherwise we’d be digging more deeply and coming up with problems to solve. But the truth was that we were just fine.
From what I’ve gathered since leaving SGM and interacting with others here is that there was a sort of upside-down belief about a lot of things having to do with the human experience, which was that we should embrace the difficult and the uncomfortable, as those feelings probably indicated that we were pushing ourselves and overcoming our sinful inclinations. If something felt easy and fun and came naturally, it was likely tainted with sin and not forcing us to grow and become more holy.
You can see this principle at work in the way a lot of SGM churches handled their small groups. Especially at CLC, the former flagship church, care groups were assigned and subject to random changes. If you felt awkward with your assigned group and went to your pastor to request a different group, you’d likely be given an outright “no” or else urged to stick it out in your awkward group, as the fact that you were looking for social comfort was a sign that your priorities were all messed up and you were in sin. The assumption was that if it felt like more work and involved trying harder and having to set aside your real feelings, it was more spiritual.
The same held true for the way young people were taught to view romance. Feeling a spontaneous attraction to someone was a really low priority in the spouse-finding process. The “mature” Christian was supposed to look at a dozen other qualifications first, things like whether or not the person was godly, and whether or not the person met with parental and pastoral approval. If everything else lined up but the gut-level attraction was not there, that wasn’t supposed to matter. This was the whole premise behind Josh Harris’ book Boy Meets Girl, wherein he shared several real couples’ stories of how they met and married. (One such story was that of Megan and Kerrin, which included lengthy excerpts from Megan’s journals, excerpts in which she baldly states that she initially did not feel any interest in Kerrin, but after discussing him with friends -- “getting godly counsel” -- she changed her mind and decided to give things a go.)
The idea was always that when it came to the human experience, what did not come naturally or feel easy was likely more spiritual. You might feel an inclination toward helping with the worship ministry, but that was just a sign that you needed to stifle that urge and instead serve in the children’s ministry. Or…you might feel an inclination to call the cops and report your child’s molestation, but that was just a sign that you needed to instead forgive the perpetrator.
Within SGM, marriage, like everything else, was viewed as just another vehicle for becoming more spiritual, and the more you had to work at it, the more spiritual you were.
February 26th, 2013 at 8:46 am
Oh my gosh, Grace,(#222) that’s exactly what our experience was! I would actually sometimes get irritated with my husband when we asked each other those assigned questions like, “If you could change one thing about me, what would it be?” And he would say, “I can’t really think of anything.” The expectation was that if he were a “godly leader”, he would be correcting me on a regular basis. I thought there was something wrong with us because that wasn’t happening. I didn’t realize how good I had it. Now I do, though!
February 26th, 2013 at 8:51 am
In the same vein of “if it is not hard, something is wrong”-
I recently heard a sermon (non SGM church) where the pastor said something to the effect that if you felt confident about what God was calling you to do, it wasn’t a call from God, only if you felt you couldn’t do it was it from God, because then he would give you what you need to complete the task.
Very similar to SGM-if you had confidence, you were prideful and did not understand what a shot-through-with-sin worm you were.
I completely disagreed with him, and told him so.
Now that I am post SGM, it’s nice to finally be able to say that I am an intelligent, confident and capable woman. I am this way because God made me that way! For me to act or feel any other way would be like scorning how God made me. This doesn’t mean that at times I am unsure of how to proceed. But I am confident then that, being made in God’s image and being indwelt with his spirit, he will provide the wisdom I need.
If any of you are still singing “If you’re happy and you know it, you’re deceived, clap clap” then please start singing a new song.
“God created man in his own image” is a good one…
February 26th, 2013 at 9:14 am
Hi there,
Sorry to interrupt this thread, but could someone please help me with regard to contacting Bob at Symboulos? His posted email keeps bouncing back to me this month. He is having an event this weekend in Gaithersburg, but wants people to contact him for an appointment. I used the given email address: bob@symboulosministries.org. There is no phone number that I can find. Thanks!
February 26th, 2013 at 9:19 am
SGM Detox Update http://calltorevolution.blogspot.com/2013/02/sgm-detox-update-and-recommended.html
February 26th, 2013 at 9:20 am
Oh, you’re bringing back memories. I remember being told I couldn’t say I was “frustrated” because that wasn’t biblical. So they would say I was angry. My response was “you’re making me angry.” Then I got the speech how they couldn’t make me sin so I was causing myself to sin. Then it would go on and on and on and on till I would finally say OK I’m ANGRY!!!.
Then the discussion would turn on my “anger.” So what did I come to talk about? Oh ya, I’ve got the bigger log in my eye.
February 26th, 2013 at 9:29 am
I remember a Mother’s Day message on the topic of women not working delivered by Mark Prater. I spent a lunch hour the next week playing the apologist with a discerning woman who had not yet swallowed the Kool Aid as I had. The cumulative effect if these types of messages, as did legalistic books like Wilson’s, “Her Hand in Marriage” generally left single women feeling as though they were living a second-class lifestyle. One pastor told me it was preferable for all women to be married. There was always the implication that you had to be doing something wrong if you weren’t married. Truth be told, most SGM pastors understand very little about pastoring women and such legalism revealed that.
February 26th, 2013 at 9:31 am
I don’t believe that the PC grads or SGM understand that it is God doing a work in us, they want to weed out sin. They want to dig out it’s roots. They really don’t have a clue how the Holy Spirit works. They don’t believe that it is God who will finish the work he started in us. There really isn’t grace for change. There is just a lot of work (on our part) to get from Glory to Glory. No room for grace, just keep accountable, trust your leaders, and their truth will set you free…gag :(
February 26th, 2013 at 9:45 am
Diego,
I agree. How sad for them and those whom they lead/infect. There is such JOY and FREEDOM in Jesus! Many of them will never know how happy and good the Christian walk could be if only they let go of control and let God do all the hard work.
February 26th, 2013 at 10:26 am
My SGM Story #201,
I’m trying to catch up a bit reading here…thank you for your comment and for bolding sharing your story. I pray that the Holy Spirit continues to assure you of the wisdom God is giving you and the freedom. I was so sad when I read about what happened in the bathroom that Mother’s Day years ago. It makes me shake my head in righteous anger at the hard heartedness. The good thing is that we grow wiser about who to open our hearts up and who not to. And you obviously have grown in that way.
I left my SG church 4 years ago and a few weeks ago started attending a small group Bible study for the first time since leaving SG. It is a very healing experience as the group is small with several kind hearted, humble, mature, eternal-focused Christians. There are 2 members who are somewhat legalistic and condemning….but, I can recognize that now and still interact with them, but I spend the majority of the fellowship time with those who I know are more spirit led and more like Jesus. God has brought me a long way. I never thought I would ever find a small group like this. It is not perfect, mind you, but I am stronger and wiser now to know how to turn from the attempts of some to push their controlling agendas.
I also had symptoms of PTSD after leaving SG. I did some counseling that has helped me deal with controlling personalities and read a great book called….In Sheep’s Clothing….not Christian, but a great look at people with aggressive, controlling personalities. Just sharing these thoughts….not directing them specifically to you or anyone else here. Just sharing and praising God for all the wisdom He has given so many of us here to get out of abusive churches and live in His freedom.
February 26th, 2013 at 10:26 am
Someone sent me this trailer:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/205428/emal/1031039
This is how it is described “A documentary film and romantic comedy about a woman who puts her faith in God and spiritual parents to find her husband..”
Part of the story is that this woman has in her mind that there is one way to find a partner and even though her biological parents aren’t behind courtship she finds someone else to act as her “father” that potential suitors can first contact.
Some of the items with courtship can make sense but this woman seeking a life partner has in her mind that there is just one way to do this.