Open Comment

Sorry to do this again, but Kris is quite busy with a side project and my poor database is complaining. No “meat” to this post, but I need to start a new thread to alleviate some symptoms. Carry on Survivors!

2,158 comments

  1. Rich W says:

    This may be a good time to suggest that this site be officially considered a forum rather than a blog. No offense, but K&G aren’t exactly producing the latest info or commentary. And along those lines, wouldn’t it make more sense to convert the format to something more like a forum instead of a long single string of comments? Thoughts?

  2. Foot says:

    What exactly is $GM “love bombing?” And, how does CJ (other false apostles, former and current $GM board members) and $GM define love bombing the children that were allegedly molested under their auspice? (Rom 13:10)

  3. Oswald says:

    Foot @2 — As I understand ‘love bombing’, it is NOT a term used by SGM but is used by others to describe what happens when new people come into the church. Like when people go through the Explore (CovFel) class to get to know about the church, a fuss is made over them and they are made to feel special and well loved, especially if they finish the course and become members. Same is true for folks who attend the Bridge/Alpha course, they feel very special and well loved by those running it. Once they have finished these courses, the love ‘bombing’ may or may not continue, depending on how the new person reacts. IMO, it seems to be sort-of a manipulative and phony thing.
    I think a ‘forum’ sounds like a good idea. Rarely is one subject stuck to anyway, but rabbit trails happen.

  4. Jim says:

    I just want to say that we ALL owe Kris and Guy a debt that we’ll never be able to repay. For Carole and I, it was the now commonly heard but still life changing, “I’m not crazy, and I’m not alone” realization, which was a huge aid in our detox. HUGE.

    Running a forum is a nightmare. K & G ran one way back when, and I’m confident that it’s not an experience they want to repeat.

    I’d just be grateful that they continue to provide this platform.

  5. DK says:

    I LIKE the current format which allows me to go to one place and see everything that is new since I last read. I’d hate to have to check multiple threads each time I logged on. Thank you, K and G, for continuing to host this site. It has been very important for the spiritual and mental health of my family and me.

  6. old timer says:

    I vote with Jim and DK.

    I found out the hard way(years worth of hard way) that I wasn’t crazy or alone about my discernment of pdi/sgm. Even though I left I still wondered if I really heard God. It wasn’t that long ago that I ran across this blog and Jim’s also.

    So I am happy that other people find they can trust their gut response to this organization that has caused so many problems for so many people–by reading real stories of folks that have ‘been there and done that’.

  7. Paul K. says:

    Yup to Rick and DK! Like present foremat and only Rick really knows the challenge of a blog frequented like this one.

  8. Marie says:

    I would go with whatever is easiest for K&G.

  9. CoBro says:

    Does anyone know if love-bombing is still being actively practiced in SGM churches? With all the bad publicity, it seems to me that pastors and members might be a little more circumspect with visitors.

  10. Derek says:

    Foot,

    Generally speaking, you won’t find any group or organization that describes their behaviors and processes as “love bombing”, but it is part of a process that you can identify if you watch closely. In love bombing, the subject (that is, prospect, recruit, etc.) is show a level of love and acceptance that they may not be accustomed to receiving. Even the strong-willed will succumb if they are starved for affection and acceptance. If you would like to see it in action, you can go to any MLM “opportunity” meeting, op-night, or whatever, and see the process in action.

    You must however remember that it is a part of a process. In the next phase of indoctrination, you will find that the recruit is systematically separated from all unapproved philosophies, information streams, and ultimately, independent thought. Someone who has succumbed at this phase will have difficulty when confronting “authorities” as the continually act in their own best interests.

    The stick behind the love-bombing carrot is “discipline”. Discipline, or “church discipline” in CLC-speak, means that your love-bombing may be terminated through “excommunication”. Now, they of course do not say that, but that is the implied threat when “fellowship” is interrupted by a period of “silent treatment”. The carrot & stick combination can be quite powerful when wielded by skilled practitioners, powerful enough to even silence a group when crimes are committed.

    Sound familiar???

  11. intheNickoftime says:

    Well done, Derek. My only comment would be that I think discipline is a third level tool, not a second level tool.

    Lovebombing is first. Makes you feel special.

    Once in, that affection and fellowship can be turned off or removed if you dont go along with the program. When that happens you either leave or heave to and follow directions accordingly.

    Discipline is for those who need more coercion to stay in line, not so much to run them out. Discipline only works with those who have a vested interest in staying with the organization. Otherwise people vote with their feet so discipline only works with people that want to remain part of an organization.

  12. whattodo says:

    Oswald. As much as you “see through” covfel, why do you stay there?

  13. Persona says:

    Love bombing is one of my pet peeves about SGM-trained churches. It is so subtly dishonest. In the real world, I have found it takes years to develop relationships. Instant ‘friendships’ are very suspicious to me now.

    But, since leaving our x-SGM church we have been both shunned and love-bombed. Forgiving them as soon as possible is still the best response, imo.

  14. Steve240 says:

    To add to what others have said, one affect the love bombing can have is lead you accept certain doctrines and policies that you might not normally accept say for example courtship.

    They can also and have used the withdrawal of love bombing when you don’t toe the SGM line on variou options.

    To echo what Jim and others have said, we owe a lot of thanks to Kris and Guy for how helpfuly this blog has been for people to realize they weren’t the only one with questions and a bad experience in the supposed “happiest place on earth.” SGM Leadership liked to control things to make people think that the issues people saw with SGM were only seen by one person when they were a lot more widespread.

    As has beeen stated before, this blog and Jim’s also gave a lot of press when Brent’s documents came out. and thus what was exposed became more widely known then had their not been these blogs.

  15. Steve240 says:

    I would also add that this blog has been a lot of work for Kris and Guy. Maybe they are taking a break. It is also disillusioning that with SGM that even when their sin and hypocrisy was shown to them in black and white, SGM Leadership chose to whitewash it and not address it.

    It was one thing for SGM Leadership to deny issues when there wasn’t a whole lot of proof or for them to claim it was hearsay or isolated cases. It was another thing to see how obstinate SGM Leaders proved to be when their sin and hypocrisy was evident in the released documents. SGM’s time of warning may be up.

    On the other hand, maybe after summer is over Kris will pick this blog up again. I am sure running a blog like this has taken a lot of time and energy. It is harder for them to take breaks from this blog like we can if we choose to do so.

  16. Dan says:

    Hear, hear to appreciation for K and G. I’m an old-time lurker, excomm’d by SGM brand United Kingdom. Usual threats (tell other churches) Family stood with church. I considered suicide seriously and had a plan. Survivors opened my eyes to not being alone, not being uncared for and above all how WRONG SGM were/are (bullying I think). Still cautiously exploring what think of God before even getting to belief in church. Survivors helps that process and faith of many dear long-termers (like Stunned as one example). Facing other forms hell in life at mo (9 mths suspended from dream job for various allegations) so again Survivors makes me not become introspective and helps me pray/ache for the abuse survivor/heroes and families. So big thanks to K and G specially, Jim and Carole and Brent and Jenny D leading speaking out against wrong-doing! Love to all from U.K! x

  17. joy huff says:

    This site showed me that I wasn’t crazy, either. Two years ago, after reading here, I saw a pattern. Thanks for this blog. We need it.

  18. Stunned says:

    Dan, so glad to “see” you! How are you doing? Hope things are well. I think about you from time to time and wonder how things are.

    God LOVES you in great big ways, Brother. Thanks for showing your face here, so to speak. You really are a blessing to many.

  19. Ruby says:

    I would like to see the present format kept for the sake of simplicity. It’s just easier to scan, skip or pause at whatever catches your eye.

    Thank you, Kris and Guy, for a much needed site. As many have said here, I found out I wasn’t the only one who noticed things that made me go, “Hmmmm….” I hope that you continue on with the blog as there are many who still need a bit more spiritual encouragement.

  20. Guy says:

    We’re not going anywhere…sorry if I made that impression with this post. I enjoy hate mail way too much to give this up ;)

  21. Steve240 says:

    The other real value of this blog has been exposure on its own of a lot terrible if not downright evil actions that have gone on within SGM Churches. Some examples that come to mind are Noel’s story and the sad way Fairfax SGM Leaders handled that along with other cases of children being molested being handled poorly by SGM Leaders. This includes what CLC Leaders did a long time ago when David Ad*** molested his step daughter and how CLC Leders didn’t support the wife and children. I wonder what might have happened if members were informed at the time about what leaders did in that case.

    In the past SGM Leaders were able to do a number of questionable actions with no fear of exposure. Now they risk having their actions reported on this blog and other places. I am sure it made SGM Leaders more reluctant to some degree to do what they freely did in the past.

    What a shame that these leaders like to quote the passage in Hebrews about submitting to your leaders but ignore the other part of the verse that says they one day will give “an account” to God. A lot of their actions sure indicate they have no concern about having to do that one day.

    Guy nice comment about “liking” hate mail. ;-)

  22. Persona says:

    Guy, I didn’t get the impression you all were going anywhere. But, it’s kind of nice to see the juxtaposition of the topic of love-bombing lined up next to genuine gratitude for you both.

    We have gained so much comfort and wisdom from following this blog. I really don’t know where we all would be without your help during this tumultuous season.

  23. Stunned says:

    “I enjoy hate mail way too much to give this up ;)”

    ha ha ha ha

  24. Oswald says:

    whattodo @13 — Except for 2 or 3 Sundays when there were members meetings that I wanted to hear (Dave H’s leaving and Brian VW’s leaving), I have not been to CovFel since last Christmas Eve. I have not attended any other church either.

  25. TR says:

    On that note Oswald, I would like to know why ANYONE is still going to these churches. It really amazes me that with all they know and all that some of them have been put through by ‘leaders’, they still go. I feel sorry for them that they have become so sick themselves that they think it is ok.

  26. 5yearsinPDI says:

    http://mattbredmond.com/2013/08/12/weaknesses-resumes-and-the-pastoral-search/

    http://mattbredmond.com/2013/08/14/weaknesses-resumes-and-the-pastoral-search-2/

    Matt B Redmond thinks the Lord may be leading him back into Pastoring ( I mean as a job, this guy never really left when it comes to pastoral gifting.)

    This guy is such a breath of fresh air. Don’t miss the first link.

  27. ExClcer'sMom says:

    Just a personal update: I have moved across the country, and being far enough away from SGM land, I have actually found a church who hasn’t even heard of SGM, or People of Destiny, or Larry Tomczak, or CJ Mahaney! Every Sunday, the pastor shares Scriptures, following an “outline” that he sends everyone home with a copy of. He continually points us to our own responsibility that we individually need to develop our own ‘intimate relationship’ with God, and then corporately come together for worship and fellowship.
    There are times that a familiar term may come up, or something similar, and I just want to run away, but God is showing me how He is redefining terms for me-showing me how these terms were meant to be, rather than how twisted they became in SGM.
    I have actually had Mothers come forward to help me supervise my newly teenaged daughter,(while I am at work) saying they know how hard it can be because they were raised by a single Mom. These are not women who are trying to bribe my child to move in with them, so they can have a built in babysitter, or offering to ‘supervise’ while they actually leave my child caring for their own children. No, these are women who teach my daughter to paint, put her in horseback riding lessons, let her witness firsthand women of God, who are serving the community around them, whether it is in a orphanage, or the Church, or in their own home. But they put no demands or manipulations on my child.
    I have been attending here for almost a year now. They even have ‘open’ Quarterly Business Meetings where everyone can attend (talk about transparency!). I have grown to care for many here, but I constantly keep my focus on God, and am ready to walk away at the first sign of any ‘leadership’ trying to convince me of anything that God is not revealing directly to my own heart.
    There is still so much healing to be done! Thank you, Kris and Guy for creating this site, and thank you to everyone who has prayed for me and my family, as well as the other victims. I am not at a point of praying for Mercy for those pedophiles and their supporters in SGM. Rather, I still take solace in the fact that God is their Judge, and He is Just. There is so much yet to be, but there is hope. I dont read here as often right now, as it takes a lot of time and energy to re-establish across the country. I do pray for you all, too.
    Thanks be to God for His indescribably gift. No matter what, he stands Faithful.

  28. lurking says:

    Glad this site’s not going away! Many valuable lessons learned here about what church can and shouldn’t look like, not to mention Christian fellowship and encouragement in tough trials which have been related. I believe that not only has God been involved in Survivors for those inside and now out of SGM, but has been and is a teaching tool for researchers and church historians and leaders who really do care about people. Kris and Guy, hope you’re enjoying a break.

    intheNick, like what you said in 12. It makes more sense out of the “shunning” experienced by exSGMers. Which sadly, just shows how disconnected from the true spirit of unity in Christ they were with the “love bombing”.

    We’re just now getting ready to consider membership in the church we’re going to now, though there shouldn’t be any fear to join, ESPECIALLY concerning what some former SGM pastor might have to say about our former participation in “their” flock, and we’ve been believers for so long, it would be idolatrous for us to care what they think. Still, ExCLCer’s Mom’s comment rings true, and we plan on scouring the membership application for signs of hyper-authoritarianism, etc. If there is a lot of emphasis on church discipline, too much legalese, we may think twice. The Church is Christ’s, not man’s.

  29. Still Soarin' says:

    ExClcer’sMom –

    Thanks for sharing how you are doing. It is so encouraging. I have also found a loving church. Not comfortable going to a small group but no one has ever pressured me to do so. I am glad God is redefining many terms for you. I call them “trigger words” . God is in the process of redeeming many of those words for me as well.

  30. Kerrin says:

    Derek,

    I find your description quite accurate, as is intheNickoftime‘s addition, however I think “love-bombing” is more than just a step in a process or stage, based on my experience and study. I see it as a form of psychological manipulation that can be used at any point by a practitioner to achieve a certain behaviour or thought in a victim. Much like, guilt-tripping, projecting blame, vilifying, shaming, and lying can be used to do the same.

    Their goal has always been to control, either behaviour or thought. Love-bombing is simply one tool in toolbox of tactics. If they no longer think they can control you, then you get one of the more negative forms of psychological manipulation (e.g., their version of “church discipline”). If they still want to control you and think you’re susceptible to, or in need of, the acceptance/approval of others then they will use the “love-bombing” tactic. I’ve even found if they are trying to regain your trust they will use this tactic. I think it’s important to see this tactic in both behaviour control and thought control.

    Do the leaders still practice love-bombing? My answer is, yes. Will they ever stop? My answer is, “no” with a caveat: unless they publicly acknowledge the use, and wrongness, of these tactics in their attempts to control thought and behaviour. People with personality disorders frequently use these types of tactics and do not change unless they seek help. Many of these leaders either have a personality disorder or are borderline personality disorders. Personally, I will never trust any of them unless they first publicly acknowledge the use of these tactics and their attempts to control behaviour and thought.

  31. Foot says:

    Hmmm, seems like the serpent “love-bombed” on Adam and Eve. (Gen 3) That is the WAY the Kingdom of Darkness works…

    And, the bible says we should not be unaware of Satan’s “tactics.” (II Cor 2:11 “so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are NOT IGNORANT of his designs.”)

    On the opposite side (Kingdom of Light), God, our Lord Jesus Christ, IS LOVE (I Jn 4:7-21)! And, thus: II Pt 3:18. May the young and old of the true flock be protected in Christ Jesus our Lord!

  32. Persona says:

    Woke up to a surprise this morning at

    http://www.theblazingcenter.com

  33. Stunned says:

    Wow, lots of good to this young man and his wife. God WILL lead you to where you should go next. He is good that way.

  34. Stunned says:

    opps, I meant good luck, but good works, too.

  35. Dan Gerous says:

    •Liking or retweeting things on social media is the same as saying it yourself. We need to see God’s commands regarding our speech as extending to all areas of communication. Joel Shorey CFC 8/18/13

    Thank God that survivors does not have a like or share button so that we may not fall into sin ;)

    SG lords are soooo good at rules so that we may not sin. They rival the Pharisees of Jesus’ day.

  36. Foot says:

    Note to Susan Burke, the PDI/$GM twisted art/irony of “LOVE-BOMBING.” And, the impact on the abused…

  37. Lover of CLC says:

    Perona’s post #33 I remember reading in this site that when the pastoral team announced their wise and proper decision it was made clear that the vote was 3-1 in favor of leaving and Stephen being the one wanting to remain part of SGM. I am wondering if perhaps there will be room at the Vatican(whatever they are calling Louisville nowadays) for him since he supported them. I do pray the Lord’s blessing on him. We have been friends for a while now.

  38. Persona says:

    #38 This is a big hit to the church in Indiana. Stephen was also the worship leader and he has many close friends there. I wonder if he and his wife will continue to attend?

    And yes, he was an SGM diehard. I also wonder if CJ will try to pluck him to lead a new SGM church?

  39. intheNickoftime says:

    Kerrin said in #31-

    Will leaders stop the practice of love-bombing? My answer is, “no” with a caveat: unless they publicly acknowledge the use, and wrongness, of these tactics in their attempts to control thought and behaviour.

    .
    .

    I will never trust any of them unless they first publicly acknowledge the use of these tactics and their attempts to control behaviour and thought.

    .
    .
    I want to repeat what you said…
    .
    .

    Will leaders stop the practice of love-bombing? My answer is, “no” with a caveat: unless they publicly acknowledge the use, and wrongness, of these tactics in their attempts to control thought and behaviour.

    .
    .

    I will never trust any of them unless they first publicly acknowledge the use of these tactics and their attempts to control behaviour and thought.

    Too many of the churches have altered what they do and how they do things. But only one or two have admitted what they did, confessed that they know it was wrong (knew then or know now)and made appropriate changes.

    Until they confess and repent, they are just moving to a new technique or a new way of controlling. Perhaps less viscious, perhaps less domineering, perhaps less damaging, but still a method of control. Unless they admit to what they did in the past and then call it wrong, they are just changing colors like a chameleon and hope to keep control and authority with new and different tools. ! ! ! If there is no admission no one can ever hold them accountable!

    Step up for a new flavor of Kool-aid!

  40. 25 Years in SGM says:

    Regarding Stephen Altrogge stepping down from ministry. I find it quite interesting. For those like Stephen who GREW UP in SGM, it has been the only world they have ever known. I have children who grew up in PDI/SGM. As with me, we left. Both still greatly struggle with anything “Sovereign Grace”. The other side of that are those of their “ilk” (children who grew up in SGM)that absolutely LOVE all things SovGrace. When one’s world has been formed and molded by SG teachings, those that … how can I put this … aren’t able to see anything else in their world but SG, it becomes their idol.

    Is SGM an idol for Stephen Altrogge? I have no idea. His reasons are his own (or in Lord of the Rings fashion “My business is my own!” … (read his blog)). However, for MANY people still in SGM it IS an idol. They worship it. They crave it. They caress it … (“My precious!”). When any person, church, thing, feeling take first place in a believer’s life, that becomes an idol.

    This is why it is so important for individual Christians to have a personal relationship with Jesus, constantly being filled with the Holy Spirit … our Helper, our comforter. Sovereign Grace did a HORRID job of leading believers to Jesus. A HORRENDOUS job of teaching them HOW to have a personal relationship with our Lord. Without that, you can’t hear the Holy Spirit.

    My prayer for Stephen is that he did hear the Lord. That he didn’t let his affections/love for SGM get in his way of his decision.

    Stephen, if you read this, you may not be aware of the tremendous hurt and pain that many have experienced in SGM. Their leaders lost their credibility years ago with all of us. I believe that your father and the other two pastors did the right thing by leaving SGM. The Holy Spirit and Him alone will guide that church. They don’t need the input of men who lost their first love and who no longer hear or obey the Holy Spirit. My prayer is that the Lord leads you to where HE wants you to be. Be careful not to listen to any idols that may whisper in your ears. Idols lie. Idols promise but never deliver. Idols separate you from your first love.

    Sincerely,

    25yearsinSGM

  41. Stephen Altrogge says:

    Hey folks,

    Thanks for the kind encouraging words and gentle admonishment. Maybe I could just give a gentle reminder to you as well. Remember that the people you talk about are real people. This was the most agonizing decision of my life. My dad and I were both in tears as we talked through this decision. This has been brutal on my family. And this decision was not made out of loyalty to SGM. Yes, it’s true, as you’ve mentioned, I still believe in SGM. But at this point I have no interest in starting a church of any sort. I honestly have no idea what the future holds for me.

    That being said, thank you for praying that God would lead me. I need his wisdom. I trust he will lead me.

  42. Still Soarin'/Stephanie says:

    Stephen –

    Thank you so much for your honest comments. I too have experienced similar symptoms of anxiety. I believe God will use how open you have been about this to encourage others who suffer in the same way. I had a picture of the Father ‘collecting” the tears you and your family have shed. He cares about you and your sorrow.

    Praying for you and your family.

  43. Live Free says:

    Stephen, God has amazing ways of closing doors and opening others. I know He leads many people out of participation in their SGM church, even though that was never their plan. Sometimes the passageway is through pain. Deep, deep pain. I understand you would never pick this for yourself, we wouldn’t have either. Who would pick pain?? I empathize with your struggles with anxiety as well; many people struggle with it, you are not alone. He is teaching us to trust in him through the night watches. As Stephanie said above, thank you for being so honest and open. It is refreshing for me from an SGM pastor (sorry, it’s true), and reflects what appears to be genuine humility. You are a real person, but you’ve also allowed yourself to be real – something many of us haven’t had the privelege to experience from leadership in our SGM churches. You shared something close to you, about YOU as a person – that means a something, and I think please God when we are just ourselves – broken and forgiven. Thanks for not hiding behind who you want people to think you are, as (unfortunately, whether you see it or not), is the SGM way. I do pray God’s abundant leading and provision for you – I know He will not fail you, as He has not failed any of us. He will not leave you, He has promised. He has great things for you and your family. I love the verse, “I have never seen the righteous forsaken, or his seed begging bread.” I pray you may rest in the abudant fullness of His grace. I confess I’m rather excited for you. I’m excited always for anyone who ever “leaves” SGM. :)

  44. Live Free says:

    Regarding the last sentence of my previous post — I mean that in the best way. I’m sorry if it sounded callous or unfeeling. For those of us who have been through the pain and are coming out the other side, I think most of us would probably just like to encourage you that it will be alright. Am I right?

  45. KAZ says:

    Stephen thanks for being open and clear on your blog about this BIG event in your life :o)

  46. 5yearsinPDI says:

    ExMom- thanks SO MUCH for the update!!! God bless you!

    Stephen-

    When you say you still believe in SGM, I assume that what you mean is that you want to embrace Reformed theology, and the importance of doctrinal study in general, and the life of the mind in Christianity- and at the same time you want the power and presence of the Holy Spirit in your life and church and worship, not a dead orthodoxy or liturgy. You want the combination as often thoughtfully discussed by people like Piper, Grudem, Lloyd Jones,Edwards, etc.

    I can imagine that it would be awful to leave the one national denomination which tried to marry these two threads, at least in words if not always in deeds. It was certainly a huge draw for my husband and I initally, as well as many other people over the last decade or two.

    For what it is worth, there are other churches and pastors out there who have the same vision, the same heart, the same outlook….but they were against the pyramid style shepherding, and believed in government by local elders and not outside apostles. So they never wanted to join SGM, but I know of several that are starting to loosely affiliate just in my state and two bordering states.

    I don’t know what God will do on a larger scale, but as you earnestly seek his will, please do not think that the things that you cherish about SGM are not elsewhere. I am currently in a church with strong Calvinistic preaching and Reformed literature for teaching and discipleship, and we are charismatic too. We’ve managed to attract some real whack jobs- and some dispys into the pretrib rapture are having a hard time- but it is a very sharpening experience, and it is heartwarming when you start to slowly see folks embrace the wonderful truths about sovereignty.

    The PCA is also heavily infiltrated by non cessationists…and is beset by some internal struggles as well. But I can see a possible future loose association with some of them and us Baptists who won’t cave in on justification by faith alone.

    The future may be exciting, and different than anything we can even imagine. I happen to think SGM was faulty in some key ways when they claimed to represent what it means to be Reformed and Charismatic. I think God may do something fresh and new and beautiful apart from SGM.

    May your sorrow be turned to joy. May God provide.

  47. Uriah says:

    Stephen,
    In my view, you have made a respectable and honorable decision. Personally I believe what you are experiencing at present is “a blessing in disguise”. In other words, something that likely feels confusing and devastating will eventually end up being a mighty blessing in your life. Be patient and go open minded, intellectually and spiritually, as the Lord leads you and eventually places you once again in a body of believers.

    Jeremiah 31:3-6
    “……I have loved you with an everlasting love;
    therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.
    4 Again I will build you, and you shall be built,
    O virgin Israel!
    Again you shall adorn yourself with tambourines
    and shall go forth in the dance of the merrymakers.
    5 Again you shall plant vineyards
    on the mountains of Samaria;
    the planters shall plant
    and shall enjoy the fruit.
    6 For there shall be a day when watchmen will call
    in the hill country of Ephraim:
    ‘Arise, and let us go up to Zion,
    to the Lord our God.’”

  48. Steve240 says:

    5YearinPDI

    You might want to reread Stephen Altrogge’s blog post again before you assume that Stephen’s statement that he still believes in SGM only means he believes in Reformed theology vs. literally believing in SGM. This was part of Stephen’s blog post:

    I also believe that resigning will allow me to rebuild the important relationships I have with the other pastors, my dad being the most important of all those relationships.

    As most people know, Stephen’s dad is a pastor of an SGM church. My assumption is that “other pastors” means other SGM pastors.

    One perosn shared he was the dissenting pastor at his church that wanted to stay in SGM. Again all this sounds like he still believes in SGM.

    Thus it appears Stephen still believes in SGM and what it stands for and presumably doesn’t see the hyocrisy of SGM Leaders such as C.J. Mahaney. I iimagine it is harder to see this hypocrisy or want to see it having grown up in SGM. Admitting that men you have looked up to for years aren’t what they said they were would destroy one’s “perfect” world and can be hard to do sometimes. I am sure it is even harder when one’s father is one of the leaders vs. someone who grows in SGM whose father isn’t a leader.

    Stephen should be in all of our prayers.

  49. Kerrin says:

    Hey Steven,

    I was thinking of love-bombing you, but thought this quote might be better:

    “A man must be willing to give 100% to his purpose, fulfill his karma or dissolve it, and then let go of that specific form of living. He must be capable of not knowing what to do with his life, entering a period of unknowingness and waiting for a vision or a new form of purpose to emerge. These cycles of strong specific action followed by periods of not knowing what the hell is going on are natural for a man who is shedding layers of karma in his relaxation into truth.” — David Deida

    Seeing the word “karma” might be offputting to some, just think of “karma” in this quote as “life circumstance.”

    Best of luck with what comes next for you.

    It is my contention, however, that the real people within SGM are actually sheeple.