If CJ used the situation with JT to bribe LT (Am I drawing the wrong conclusion here?) Isnt that documentation of CJ’s personal involvement in covering up abuse? There are tapes, right? AoR listened to those tapes, right? Who arranged for the pastors to move when their sons abused other children? Was Mark Prater involved? Dave Harvey? Steve Shank? Were the pastors of these moves aware of ignorant of why they needed to do a pastor swap?
C.J. Mahaney used the situation with JT to BLACKMAIL LT. You do raise a good point that C.J. Mahaney was willing to not do anything about what JT did as long as LT went along and didn’t leave. C.J. was especially demanding LT be quiet about his disagreement with the group moving towards Calvinism. It is likely that C.J. would conceal other things if it would protect the image of Sovereign Grace.
I said this a long time ago that is C.J. Mahaney was willing to blackmail someone and hide his sin then I wondered what else Mahaney had done and thought was OK? Now it sounds like this was concealing cases of children being molested.
We already know that C.J. was able to conceal his son’s pot smoking when it would have been a disqualifier for any other leader within SGM. Mahaney showed there he had no issue with rules not applying to him.
R Denhollander’s proclomation that in the Evangelical church structures there is: “a systematic burying of reports of sexual abuse; forgive and forget; not reporting to police; moving leadership around who either were involved in abuse or knew of abuse….continues and there is NO accountability.”
In the interview on Fox she states: “….if my abuse had not been Larry Nasser but instead was in Sovereign Grace Ministries under the leadership of CJ Mahaney….I would not only NOT have evangelical support, I would be actively VILIFIED AND LIED ABOUT by every single evangelical leader out there.”-
SGM pooh-poohed Denhollanders request for G.R.A.C.E to open an unbiased investigation on behalf of victims. However, it looks as though the (genuine!) Gospel-centered, Jesus loving Denhollander has (graciously!) (appealed!) for justice on behalf of the weak, the victims, the silenced — as Christ has exhorted us to do.
Upon any responsive investigations, the controlling polity and structure of SGM will then be exposed in the light of day—ie, in the national news. This would open opportunity (again) for leaders confessions, and true repentance. Will this happen??? Jesus came to “bear witness to the Truth” —always, there is the battles for the truth.
Brent – I think it would be more productive for you to work on your book.
Waters – Good to hear from you again! I believe an independent investigation of SGM/SGC will largely depend, as it did in Rachaels’s sexual abuse case, on the collective outcry and support from those in the shadows who found courage to come forward as she led the charge. There was a rally cry of injustice and people responded.
I realize all of us who have experienced various forms of abuse from SGM are probably exhausted from the long battles we’ve engaged in over the past decade. I know we have been disappointed, discouraged, and disheartened many times over the years when we thought justice would finally prevail, only to see our hopes dashed.
However, I trust we can see how God has been faithful to not let SGM out of the heavenly headlock He’s had them in for so long.
Because of God’s tenacity, I believe we will surely see justice prevail and more importantly see God glorified by either the repentance or the undoing of SGM.
I think it is very important all SGMSurvivors make their voices heard via letters, emails, interviews, etc to whatever media source is carrying her story, … which has now become our story; so that an overwhelming outcry will resonate and gather momentum throughout the Christian community.
There is more at stake here than our own abuse, as Rachael has so well demonstrated. She has used her experience to gain a platform from which to have an exponential impact.
Like Waters said, not only will the cover up of sexual abuse be exposed but the “controlling polity and structure of SGM will then be exposed in the light of day.”
Systemic spiritual abuse precipitated by a perversion of spiritual authority is the head of the snake. I believe it is what creates the opportunity for all other types of abuse to occur in the church.
Brothers and sisters, we have another opportunity to before us, an opportunity for our voices to be heard, as well as to make a difference for the next generation, a generation who has likely been disillusioned and confused by what has taken place regarding Christianity in their lifetime. This includes SGM, Mars Hill, and many other organizations who’ve also experienced spiritual abuse.
I’m praying this will be the decisive episode for SGM. I’m praying those who’ve been adversely affected by SGM will see God’s justice prevail. I’m also praying that somehow all of this will cause our children and the younger generation to sit up and take notice ….. God is faithful and He can be trusted to vindicate His name.
I have removed your back-and-forth. As much as I think it’s interesting and worthy of discussion, and as much as I absolutely believe SGM’s/SGC’s issues are FAR GREATER than the abuse coverups (which are really just a symptom of the dysfunctional system, not the main problem), it’s better to keep the super lengthy accusations/refutations out of this conversation for the moment. Maybe later.
B Donkey- nice post. “Systemic spiritual abuse precipitated by a perversion of spiritual authority is the head of the snake. I believe it is what creates the opportunity for all other types of abuse to occur in the church.”
Yes. Setting up strict guidelines for the future about how to immediately deal with pedophiles and other sex abusers doesn’t get to the root, or suddenly make a place safe and acceptable. I wonder if Rachel knows that or if she just knows about the sex abuse cases.
19 page collection of SGM related material. A lot of posts Kris made as opening posts are in there, and it paints a picture of the overall SGM atmosphere. It is more concise than trying to send somebody to this website. And it has statements by CJ, Harvey, Harris, etc so its reasonably representative of all sides although not up to date. Right now it would be my “go to” link to learn about SGM. I reread the whole thing the past week and it does not take an unreasonable amount of time to do so.
One of the problems I see with people’s desire for an investigation is – the attention span of the internet. Rachel spoke, a lot of people listened but in this era of crazy politics, that’s yesterday’s news and we’re on to the NEXT BIG THING – whatever it is.
Other than “survivors” who has any real desire to pursue a long, drawn out investigation of what has happened in the increasingly distant past. C.J., Dave Harvey, Harris, et al. are gone. Do the surviving SGM churches have any desire to bring to life sleeping dogs? Probably not.
So thinking that this is going to crest in an investigation of SGM’s past seems highly unlikely.
Other than “survivors” who has any real desire to pursue a long, drawn out investigation of what has happened in the increasingly distant past. C.J., Dave Harvey, Harris, et al. are gone. Do the surviving SGM churches have any desire to bring to life sleeping dogs? Probably not.
Drew C.J. is not gone. He is the Sr. Pastor of the Louisville KY Sovereign Grace Church. Though perhaps not technically in leadership of what is now called Sovereign Grace Church (formerly SGM) I am sure he still has significant power leading this group.
I do see your point on “attention spans.” My guess is that the leadership of SGC is doing whatever they can to hold off with hopes that the attention for this will die down. Hopefully it will be different this time but sadly in the past this spotlight has had limited results. A significant number of churche$ did leave $GC and their contributions.
I still really wonder how SGC can claim they are a Christian group with all the action/hiding/inaction that I have seen over the years and especially since Brent’s documents came to light. They will have to give an account one day to God for their actions. I really wonder if they have taken this to heart at all.
ONE other things: Independent investigation require $$$$$$.
So, who’s volunteering to pay for this? Kris and Guy? [ a little humor there ]
_____
I could be wrong but I thought a couple years ago somebody started a “gofundme” page to pursue a lawsuit against SGM. I don’t know what became of that but probably not much.
I agree that it is unlikely another investigation will be done, as long as SGM / SGC is the one footing the bill. However, what this whole conversation has done is discredit the so-called “independent” investigation done in the past, and which SGM / SGC has relied on as proof of their cooperation and evidence that the leadership never did anything improper.
Rachael Denhollander dissected it in such a way that it should be difficult for non-SGM/SGC organizations to continue supporting SGM/SGC without questions being raised about the basis for such support and their own credibility.
And whether the spotlight fades or not, people outside SGM / SGC plus people within SGM / SGC who are not afraid to read things critical of SGM/SGC, will at least have a tool to help them better understand something fundamental about SGM/SGC history.
Also, different line of commentary – if Ms. Denhollander’s perspective is biased/unreliable because of her status as a victim (as SGM/SGC leadership stated), what does that say about their perspective being similiarly biased because they are the accused?
Drew said, “Other than “survivors” who has any real desire to pursue a long, drawn out investigation of what has happened in the increasingly distant past.”
Who has a desire to see justice done to victims (and additionally, who else desires to see the church as a spotless bride?) I guess I’d start out with God. Then to that list, I’d add people who value justice.
I’d say that list is pretty sufficient right there.
Drew, I’ve never heard of an independent investigation fund raiser. How sure are you that that actually happened and never took off? I do know that Boz’s group GRACE has said they would do one, but am unaware of the costs.
I had an interaction with an SGM pastor this weekend. 1. It reminded me how glad I am no longer dealing with SGM. 2. It showed me that SGM’s response is to double down and actively choose to ignore any evidence presented. Given this seems to be where things are, I expect Denhollander, after some time will present other evidence, that she has alluded to, beyond what has already been made known. I believe this stiff-necked behavior will eventually lead to a long, slow death for SGM. At some point, if the evidence is bad enough, T4G will have to sever ties or they will all suffer financially.
Rachael D. actually committed to spearhead the necessary fundraising for the independent investigation if SGC were to agree to it and donate to it herself so that there is no extra cost to SGC. It’s in the 5th paragraph of this Facebook post on her account:
Balaam’s Donkey, I LOVE your inspiring words! Those were some of my initial thoughts as I watched Rachael’s story, but you brought even more inspiration to it. While I have not been “involved” in these issues lately, I have continued in prayer regarding all of it,for all of those victimized-not just my family. I have been, and continue to do a lot of still necessary healing. I am confident that God will heal my family from all of those years, and am so encouraged to see Him bring this back to the forefront again!I also love how lovingly and gently my Savior is, as He shows me where I went wrong-not for judgment, but for growth and for me to see His everlasting faithfulness; His persistent love. I don’t have as much time to read and respond to things, but I spend a lot of time in prayer. I am encouraged by what I see on this page today, and just wanted to say thank you! <3
“Who has a desire to see justice done to victims (and additionally, who else desires to see the church as a spotless bride?) I guess I’d start out with God. Then to that list, I’d add people who value justice.”
+++++++
God doesn’t need an independent investigation and He doesn’t actually need people who value justice [ as they see it. ]
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All I’m saying; more than just a few times in the last several years people have gotten their hopes up that justice would be served – as they saw it. To some extent, at least, they won. C.J. really doesn’t appear to be a factor in SGM polity, I don’t think SGM is “sheperding” any more; home-schoolers are no longer deified as the only way to go and people like Harvey, Harris, Detwiler et.al are gone. The Washingtonian is NOT going to do another article on SGM’s past and SGM leadership has NO REASON TO THINK their detractors would actually change their minds if an “independent investigation” cleared them.
BTW, I don’t think any SGM churches were actually charged with a crime were they? Others may know but it appears only Morales was ever charged with a crime [ very guilty ] and I don’t think he was paid staff was he?
Drew,
Foundational Christianity is…God ‘works’, moves through His people.Through prayer and action.
God places great value in justice – “Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of Your throne.”(PS 89:15)
Working out justice is one type of ‘good works’ we do. For example, the decades long battles to stop abortion has included vigilant and consistent prayer, and legal actions. Of course, not every Christian is called to every battle. I have learned, if a particular battle has entered my ‘field’, I listen for and obey the Lords directions. He is the Captain, He knows the end from the beginning!
Balaams Donkey,
Your post on 3/17 is an excellent synopsis for the battle we are currently in. Highlights:
“I think it is very important ….to make our voices heard to whatever media source is carrying
her (R.D.) story.” — Currently, that would be World Magazine and Fox News…any others?
“SYSTEMIC SPIRITUAL ABUSE PRECIPITATED BY A PERVERSION OF SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY IS THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE. I BELIEVE IT IS WHAT CREATES THE OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL OTHER TYPES OF ABUSE TO OCCUR IN THE CHURCH.” The head of the snake must be axed to stop the slithering PERVERSION of spiritual authority.
Drew, if you think CJ isnt involved with major decisions regarding SGM, you are naive. If he isnt the face of SGM, why isn’t the new SGM leader the one headlining big events, instead of CJ?
But, more to the point, it was never about getting rid of CJ. It was always about open, honest, transparent discussion about the wrongs that have happened, accompanied by true repentance, and to protect other kids from being molested. Some of these examples of moving pastors because their sons have abused other kids are not old and their are kids still at risk. Moreover, until SGM comes clean and also actually try to understand pedophiles and their behavior, every kid in an SGM church is at risk, IMHO.
Besides, if, and I am say I’m not if, because I feel as though this has not been confirmed in a capacity that would stand up in court (but believe there is a possibility that it could be) but if CJ bribed LT, threatening to reveal a situation where sexual abuse went on reported, then there is evidence that contrary to his claims, CJ did cover up sexual abuse. Furthermore, others have reported his firsthand involvement in covering it up in Fairfax. Why does this matter? CJ is the senior pastor of a church, where this type of behavior could likely continue. The SGM loyal have made it clear that they put, “protecting an elder” above everything else.
Drew, genuine question, why do you participate here? The underlying message in so many of your posts seem to say, “Please, everyone, shut up and go away now.” They come across to me as really negative of anyone here trying to do what they feel convicted that they should do or to discuss. Can you help me to understand what your motivation for being here is? I’m not saying you don’t have a right to be here and participate, I’m just confused as to what I often see in what you write. Like that time recently when you asked a very direct question about Rachael Denhollander, which seemed to throw her into a bad light, only to say in your next post that you already knew what the answer was.
What’s happening with you which makes you participate here if you just think everyone should shut up and leave SGM alone? I remember the day when people from SGM / SGC and the pastor’s college would allegedly come here and pretend to be someone else to discourage open discourse, and it often feels the same way when I read your posts. Am I way off?
I went back and read something that makes me realize that the independent investigation only covered CLC, not SGM. Of course I knew that, but I guess I had CLC and SGM/SGC blurred in my mind (I had that problem even when I went to CLC). So SGM has never undergone an investigation at all, even though many of the leaders who went to Kentucky were named in the lawsuit because they were leaders at CLC when the events occurred. I think that is a distinction worth emphasizing.
Out there, SGM had a $400,000+ investigation by AOR. And SGM is ok but this blog is bad.
Then there was the independent investigation related to the lawsuit. Look how that went. Wasn’t it another hundred grand at least?
Do we really need to waste money on another? Isn’t Grant Layman’s statement under oath enough to show the lies?
I think Justice is best served by finding some foreign mission group that works with street kids and tries to keep them out of a life of prostitution. If CJ goes to jail that doesn’t help the millions of victims all over the world. Hubby and I help out one group in one city in one country, and there are countless others. I think more healing and happiness would come from sending money to good Christian missions than blowing more hundreds of thousands on CJ. I hate to watch another cent be wasted. Maybe a collection for Wallace and Happymom and the others would be nice.
Maybe I will change my mind on this but right now I think money could be better spent.
Keep in mind our nation faces potential severe hyperinflation, with the collapse of the Petro dollar, and unfunded liabilities for future social security, Medicare, etc. Unless they default on bonds and plunge many people into ruin, they have to print more money. Within 10 years our standard of living could drop in half. CJ stole so much of our money, don’t send another nickle in his direction, even for one more investigation. Pay off debt, save the best you can. Hey, I could be totally wrong, but at least think about it.
I am not necessarily endorsing future investigations. My main point is that the previous investigations should not be used to reassure people. And of course SGM/SGC will not permit outside investigators to come in, because they know they do have situations to cover (moving pastors around, CJ’s attempt at blackmail, etc.).
But I do not subscribe to any of your reasons for not having an investigation. I think we do have a responsibility to hold SGM/SGC accountable in some way (to the extent that many of us once supported them with money or simply attendance/endorsement). And your last paragraph seems irrelevant to this discussion – or at best, it sounds like an excuse to not do anything (which I don’t think is really your attitude).
5year, to quote RachelDenhollandwr, “How much is a little girl worth?” In SGM it could be asked, “How much is a little girl or boy worth?”
That is why an investigation is still necessary. It’s not just about justice for the past. It’s about protecting children, now. I honestly worry for my friends who did not leave SGM and the safety of their children.
SGM has shown no demonstrable change in their attitudes towards handling of abuse situations and I believe many, if not most of us believe children are still at risk.
A new Facebook Support Group for PARENTS of sexual abuse victims started by Ann and Richard Cook, parents of a courageous sexual abuse survivor from the Nathaniel Morales’ trial.
( http://wjla.com/…/nathaniel-morales-of-covenant-life-church… )
Often, dads and moms of sex abuse victims are left on their own struggling with years of grief, anger, stigma, sorrow and the emotional rollercoaster that can follow the trauma of sexual abuse occurring to one or more of their children.
Inspired by the social media tags such as MeToo and TimesUp we choose these three words to identify our outreach to other parents whose child or children were sexually abused. We hope to provide a place for parents to give voice their own struggle, their own pain, and their own healing, as together we guide and care for our precious children to healing.”
Is it too late to have a criminal trial? The lawsuit was a for a civil trial. I don’t know all the legal technicalities of the subject, but wouldn’t justice be better served by a criminal trial? Or were they allowed clergy confidentiality privilege back then and a criminal trial would be a waste? A verdict could make them pay out restitution money even if they don’t go to jail.
Jenn- I think churches all over the nation will handle these things better. I think the internet probably scares them. People are fed up and very quick to post online. In that sense I would not worry about SGM kids more than any other church. I would think SGM is being very careful to avoid anything else. The new book of church order has a short phrase about calling the cops but I don’t feel like looking for it now.
The real problem is that it happens in the first place. So much pedophilia is being exposed nationally and SGM stories are a drop in the bucket. I don’t know what the answer is except to pray for revival and do whatever you can to guard kids in your sphere of influence. It is all so horrible.
By the way for clarity- my crack about CJ stealing money does not meant theft in the legal sense. I am sure it was in keeping with statute law. It was a reference to the way the cult operated to drain your finances, and let him give huge financial gifts to his buddies and children. I just don’t want to see God’s people drained of more money if it is not God’s will.
I think I am wrong about verdicts. Criminal trials you only go to jail, but civil trials you pay fines? Is that right? Well anyway, can there be a criminal trial?
Gang… no matter what, there WILL NOT be an independent investigation. It is a losing proposition in the eyes of Mahaney. He KNOWS he is guilty, as do the rest of that leadership team. They won’tdo anything.
That said, I do envision “Lig”, Mohler and the rest of the enablers of Mahaney to get a ton of pressure to leave SGM in the dust. I believe that will happen.
Eventually SGM will change their names again and continue their man- centered worship of Mahaney and future leaders. Those that will remain will continue their ungodly support of their idols.
5 Years said, “The lawsuit was a for a civil trial. I don’t know all the legal technicalities of the subject, but wouldn’t justice be better served by a criminal trial?”
I think only God knows which is the better way. I find God seldom moves in a straight line, and what we think is best is often not what He thinks is the best way. (So much higher is the sky above the earth, are His ways above our ways. OK, I didn’t actually look it up, so I can’t remember that scripture word for word, but ya feel me, right? ;) )
For that reason, I think supporting people in following God however He leads them is really the best thing, rather than trying to figure out if they are doing the best thing or not. I often think of the scripture in John where (I think) Peter is asking Jesus about another disciple and Jesus essentially says, “What is it to you? You follow me.” I’m not sure how God wants to do this work of healing and redemption. Maybe here on earth for man to see, or maybe on the other side of the veil. But I do want to be the one encouraging my siblings in Christ to follow Him and Him alone, even if it means seemingly completely disagreeing with my thoughts or even what He is telling me to do. I figure, what is it to me, I am to follow Jesus and love as He calls me to love.
I wish all those called to follow Him, to do so with all of your hearts, and soul and mind.
Drew … please save all of us the time and please read Brent Detwiler’s site. He has tons of emails from SGM Leaders who implicate THEMSELVES for multiple offenses including blackmail, lying, protecting SGM vs. protecting those that were injured, etc..
Crimes were committed. Grant Layman even stated UNDER OATH that they knew that they should have reported pedophiles to the police but they DID NOT.
The only reason SGM got “off” was because of the statute of limitations in the state. Sad thing for SGM is that there is no statute of limitations in heaven. They will answer for all the harm that they caused those that were hurt because of their crime.
stunned, if you think I was criticizing the civil trial that was not my intention. I have the highest regard for Susan Burke. Boz would perhaps be a great idea but as “somewhere” said, it isn’t going to happen.
We’ve spent years criticizing SGM for keeping these problems in the church and dealing with them in the church, without going to the civil authorities. So why do we want yet another para church organization involved to handle it within the church? Isn’t that inconsistent? If perps should be turned in to the cops right away, then in the current call for justice why aren’t we calling on the law? Why are we asking for another Christian investigation that has no legal clout?
Genuine question I am asking here. There must be a reason this never went to a criminal trial. Money? Statute of limitations? When they let Morales go away and said nothing, so he could repeat his evil deeds again and again, was that legal at the time to not mandate reporting a perp? So is there no criminal case? Or no money for what it would cost?
Since I assume Brent is still reading here I suppose he would know. Or maybe Pam Palmer. If a collection is going to be taken for an investigation that would probably run well over $100,000, how much money would a criminal trial cost? I have no idea. But why do yet one more investigation if they can be taken to court and tried as criminals? What about the hush fund thing BD wrote about, isn’t that criminal? Wouldn’t that send them to jail? Detwiler has all the emails, so there is a proof.
There must be a reason why it is not a criminal case, but I don’t know what the reason is.
In defense of Drew, this isn’t too clear. If the statute of limitations has run out and clergy were not mandated to report, then maybe there is no crime, according to statute law. Moral law is God’s true law, and yes there were crimes and sins, but the cops operate according to the statute law. No arrests have ever been made, so I wonder if technically no crimes were committed. Churches have quite a bit of immunity, or did. Maybe there is no criminal case. Drew is correct, there have been no arrests.
I feel like we have had this discussion before. Obviously, the cases of abuse are crimes. As for not reporting – I don’t think CLC leaders were obligated to report, so I don’t think a crime was committed there. I think – but I’m not 100% sure – the situation Grant admitted involved perjury or lying to the police about what was known when. And blackmail is a crime, but who is going to lodge a complaint against CJ – Larry? That would involve discussing the issue that was being used as blackmail, which I feel quite certain he will not do.
There are other situations in other churches that are fairly recent – there is one that I think occurred in Pennsylvania (not Philadelphia) in which a pastors son abused another boy, so the pastor was moved to another church – is that right? Brent keeps track and I am sure can summarize the events and break down what is criminal, etc. more succintly than the rest of us.
I don’t know the answer. Sometimes investigations span multiple years and if a juvenile is involved we might never know the results, especially if the victim’s family did not cooperate.
If the child victim does not want to go public that needs to be respected. No matter how much counsel they get that it wasn’t their fault, it can be a very embarrassing and difficult thing to have to testify in court and talk about it. That limits prosecution. Even if you think they should report it, and try to get them to so others will be protected, at the end of they day if they want to keep their trauma private you can’t force them to do otherwise. This is one reason why statutes of limitation for this should be very long (if they exist at all). It can take decades to get up the courage to go public.
somewhereintime- On another subject, what still bothers me is the Gospel Coalition statement. Out of all the thousands of posts on this blog, they select this one quote to represent the vindictive bad blogs.
“One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, “I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically.””
Do you know where that quote came from? From somebody molested at age 13 against the outside wall of an SGM member home. Can you understand the strength of their feelings and desire to see justice…even if it sounds harsh?
I know TGC and Carson, etc were confronted about this. I doubt they picked out that one quote, they probably had a ghost writer help and just signed off on it. But I am not aware of any retraction despite numerous pleas for an apology. You can’t ignore all the posts here by former SGM staff and members, many of which are not the slightest bit bitter, and pick out one quote from a sex abuse victim as representative, and show no compassion for their trauma.
You say “That said, I do envision “Lig”, Mohler and the rest of the enablers of Mahaney to get a ton of pressure to leave SGM in the dust. I believe that will happen.” Maybe. But it is hard to picture any true blessing on their ministries if they don’t apologize for the enabling.
“One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, “I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically.””
Do you know where that quote came from? From somebody molested at age 13 against the outside wall of an SGM member home. Can you understand the strength of their feelings and desire to see justice…even if it sounds harsh?
Sadly they had to pick out one of the more extreme comments vs. the more typical comments.
Even though I kind of see their point on bitterness using this quote shows just how lacking in empathy the Gospel Coalition is on the affect Sovereign Grace Churches has had on people. Shouldn’t TGC show some concern that the organization lead by C.J. Mahaney has produced such extreme cases like this where someone was so badly abused that they have these long term feelings?
Just so callous to use this statement but then again many in these groups are masters at deflection and finding excuses to not look internally.
PDI – “If the child victim does not want to go public that needs to be respected. No matter how much counsel they get that it wasn’t their fault, it can be a very embarrassing and difficult thing to have to testify in court and talk about it. That limits prosecution. Even if you think they should report it, and try to get them to so others will be protected, at the end of they day if they want to keep their trauma private you can’t force them to do otherwise. ”
_____________-
PDI, that option has been taken away. It no longer matters what the victim wants. They are no longer allowed to keep their trauma private if they chose to talk to their church staff about it.
If you’re the counselor/pastoral staff, you pick up the phone then and there and call you state child protection team. Then the full bureacracy will get involved and who knows what will happen next.
Drew- from what I know from one good source, the state has to have evidence in order to prosecute, which means victims have to talk, or, if the state can get a warrant to go into the perp’s house, they can get the perp’s computer which invariably has child porn on it. But I guess you have to not let the perp know you called the cops or they can toss their computer real fast.
Obviously, in an effort to aid law enforcement, you want to encourage victims to talk. Which means you don’t make up a moral equivalence and tell the kid that they are a sinner too and heap guilt on them. You tell them it is zero their fault what the grownup did, zero, and they can help other kids if they will testify. There are ways to stay private, like screens and so forth.
I don’t know how it works if parents tell the church, the church calls the cops, but the kid does not want to talk. A lot of fear can be involved. All that to say in retrospect I don’t think churches were well equipped to deal with this, and I don’t just mean SGM. One hopes that all that has transpired will cause changes in the future, at least in this area.
Well, actually, Drew, there is a statement made in an email by PB written to MP that speaks to your comment. It’s in “Plan C” of a financial agreement they were working out with a family of a sexually abused son. PB mentions specifically that one of the negatives about “Plan C” is that it “Could cause additional harm to our reputation and subsequent loss of support.” I think that lends some evidence to the fact that there was concern about protecting themselves and not losing financial and/or other support. So, you actually don’t have to stretch, nor would you have to judge someone’s heart.
It’s in the same link that Jenn Glover mentioned yesterday after you posted a question.
I’d agree with that, but it doesn’t make it any less of a crime. Grant layman KNEW they were disobeying the law. He said it under oath.
I could understand if they didn’t know out of ignorance… even so, the law is still broken .
However, they knew and STILL chose to not report the abuse for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.
That decision cost many children and their families untold pain and trauma in their lives.
The worst thing is that Nathan Morales had multiple other victims after leaving CLC that probably wouldn’t have happened (or at least some not happened) had CLC reported Morales. The victim includes the children of the woman he married out West.
You just wonder what CLC Leadership was thinking. Was protecting the image of their church and group worth a number of boys being victims of Morales?
There was a controlling stronghold in SGM that wanted to keep a grip on people. Many felt intimidated and fearful. The leaders did what they did to preserve their hold on people, and covering up sex abuse was needed for their reputation, to keep that hold on people.
As “somewhere” said, “for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.”
We knew all kinds of churches back in the 80s and 90s that kept sin issues in the church. I don’t think anybody ever called the cops. It was seen as the responsibility of the church. Like you said, it was schools and other groups too. Summer camp, boy scouts, families…..people didn’t call the cops. They just didn’t. But it didn’t mean they had a controlling stronghold; often they felt bad for victims and were ignorant and inept. ( I will include myself as ignorant and inept. I knew a couple women who were raped many years ago and never even thought of the cops.) Pastors truly cared, but they didn’t call the cops.
SGM could turn around and be the new face of calling the cops, but it would still be for the same reason- to maintain their control over people. To look good. To keep their grip.
Its fair to say you were not there and didn’t know their hearts. But to some degree those of us there could tell. You knew which pastor was tender hearted and kind, and which ones would jump on people instantly. Over time you could tell. A lot of lower rung leaders were as under that stronghold’s grip as the people. Eventually we saw one caring man get degifted and another leave. Pastors either got hard or got out. That stronghold demanded abnormal loyalty.
Trying to make the SGM problem all about not calling cops is a mistake. The problem was wanting to keep a tight controlling grip on people.
Drew- for the most part, that is true. We all are mixed and complex. A new creation with a heart for God, and the old nature too.
What are the motives though, of a wolf, tare, hireling, or false apostle? The NT describes all of them in the church. False brethren too. We are told to know them by their fruit. Can we do that? Is it possible to recognize such people? How do you distinguish between somebody with good motives who is ignorant or deceived, and somebody with evil motives, if they both bungle situations in a way that causes great harm? If somebody has a pattern of lying, and they are not just getting dementia but lying, what are they? Weak and fearful, or evil? There is a lot to think about and I don’t have all the answers, but once you go to a decent church you can look back and see a huge difference.
We don’t have to guess about their zeal for protecting themselves – they have been front and center with it. Over and over during the last years, SGM leaders have chastised those who did not, “protect the church” or “protect an elder.” This isn’t speculation, it’s fact.
Drew, what is your vested interest in SGM that drives you to choose to ignore evidence that is contrary to the SGM narrative?
Hi Drew, I posted this 2 days ago but I didn’t see an answer. Excuse me if you did, and I missed it. But here’s what it was:
Drew, genuine question, why do you participate here? The underlying message in so many of your posts seem to say, “Please, everyone, shut up and go away now.” They come across to me as really negative of anyone here trying to do what they feel convicted that they should do or to discuss. Can you help me to understand what your motivation for being here is? I’m not saying you don’t have a right to be here and participate, I’m just confused as to what I often see in what you write. Like that time recently when you asked a very direct question about Rachael Denhollander, which seemed to throw her into a bad light, only to say in your next post that you already knew what the answer was.
What’s happening with you which makes you participate here if you just think everyone should shut up and leave SGM alone? I remember the day when people from SGM / SGC and the pastor’s college would allegedly come here and pretend to be someone else to discourage open discourse, and it often feels the same way when I read your posts. Am I way off?
I suspect you are a current serving pastor, care group leader, or close family member of your SGMs interior.
My advice to you is to seek professional help from outside your Order. Here’s why:
You wrote,
“If the child victim does not want to go public that needs to be respected. No matter how much counsel they get that it wasn’t their fault, it can be a very embarrassing and difficult thing to have to testify in court and talk about it. That limits prosecution. Even if you think they should report it, and try to get them to so others will be protected, at the end of they day if they want to keep their trauma private you can’t force them to do otherwise. ”
Sorry but this is exactly why a third party, non-church should investigate this group immediately. You are the adult. In protecting these children you and/or the members of your Order have an immediate responsibility to contact local law enforcement. There are and were systems in place to care for victims. These local authorities have deep connections with professional counselors with specialized degrees and experience. Furthermore if you are a true friend to this hurt child then you would walk with them every step of the way. “Going public” does not mean anyone is calling TMZ. That you cannot see this is exactly why your organization must be stopped. You are not law enforcement. You’ve likely never even taken a qualified class in child psychology. You are not God. You do not know what is best for these children.
“PDI, that option has been taken away. It no longer matters what the victim wants. They are no longer allowed to keep their trauma private if they chose to talk to their church staff about it.”
Correct! Come on Drew. Be a friend, not a coward!! I think we’ve seen what keeping things quite “for the victims sake” has accomplished in both churches and many other types of institutions. Here’s the point. The law was broken. Your responsibility is to report this broken law to your local authority.
“If you’re the counselor/pastoral staff, you pick up the phone then and there and call you state child protection team. Then the full bureacracy will get involved and who knows what will happen next.”
Who knows what will happen? Here’s a thought. Test it. See what will happen. Most important, don’t hand off your victim and move on. Befriend them and stay right by their side.
Bureaucracy will be involved regardless of whether your instruction decides to treat it or you have the local authorities treat it. Hiding in any way leaves other children open to getting hurt. The institutional officers that hide sex abuse for any reason are of more harm to children than the b*****d that actually hurt the child. Hiding also causes others to get hurt!
Drew/pastor/caregroupleader/familymember, i know it is hard but just try to see that there is a big world outside of your bubble. Civil servants care for these types of cases in high quantities.
In my opinion Drew, someone needs to shut down your Order to protect the public interest.
My view of humanity – We’re pretty complex in our motives and our heart.
I would find it hard to believe that SGM leadership motives were only evil.
I would add a few things here. C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak (now deposed) and other leaders may have started out well with good motives as perhaps seem when they had TAG a teaching only ministry. Then as sadly happens with many leaders is perhaps their success gets to them and their egos and it goes from pure motives to something else. These leaders are blinded by both their success and egos. Also the culture these leaders have produced can be quite insular with few if any willing to tell them the truth they need to hear.
I imagine if you could look deep down inside of most of these leaders they would sincerely think they have honorable motives when in fact many of their actions are quite sad and go against Christ’s teaching. Also they feel their group or movement is so important to God that maintaining and promoting it justifies sinful ways of protecting their group. Hence you see the “end justifies the means” behaviors.
Many think C.J. Mahaney is narcissistic and possible sociopathic in the sense that he has no conscience. If Mahaney is narcissistic as he appears then it is quite hard (short of a miracle) for Mahaney to see how wrong his actions have been.
Drew wrote, “Telling yourself lies [I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom] doesn’t really heal.”
Hmmm, as far as I can tell, YOU are the only one here who has ever called SGM or any other group, “the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom.” Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but you are the only one who has taken things to such extremes. Which is normally what happens with a straw man argument. The person trying to persuade you creates a hyperbolic statement, tries to put it on the people they are trying to persuade, then claims their own judgement being superior because the hyperbolic statement is clearly hyperbolic. Or rather, they like to create an argument which never existed in the first place, then claim they have the proper perspective, therefore people should really be listening to their point of view, instead.
You, also, wrote, “So I share – perspective.”
Seems to me no one else here has ever made the outlandish claims which you insinuate are being made here, have been made here and continue to be made here. Same as you’ve done with others who have had the courage to speak out.
People who create straw man arguments, also, tend to not actually answer the question put to them, but rather pervert it, answering a part of the question, so as to manipulate people into thinking they have answered in full.
I’ll make it easy on you, Drew.
Are you now, or have you ever been, or has any relative of yours ever been in the SGM’s pastor’s college or any other seminary at all, or have you ever sat under any teaching of CJ Mahoney’s in a class room situation?
I’ve read many articles through the years re: the narcissistic personality disorder and the antisocial personality disorder (which includes sociopathy and psychopathy as one of the articles below explains). I know many of you probably know more than me about them, but here’s 2 quick links for anyone who’s reading and may not be as familiar with some of these terms or if you just want to read some concise summaries of them. They are by no means extensive descriptions of either. But they’re helpful I think.
Answer: Nope. Have NEVER, EVER met or listened to anyone in SGM leadership current or past. [ Never heard a Mahaney message on tape, youtube, livestream etc.
I have, at my non SGM Church, sang Bob Kauflin choruses. I have no idea what he even looks like however.
To reiterate; Never met C.J. [ or the others], never heard a message of their’s and have never read any books of their’s. Have never attended an SGM church.
I have no family members or friends who are associated with SGM ministries.
Without the use of popular psychobabble to diagnose; I pretty much agree with Steve240. You start out with an honest desire to build a church or organization that glorifies the Lord and you end up protecting and defending the organization more than glorifying the Lord. It happens to the best of them.
I like Drew. He reminds me of the good people I know who don’t read blogs and all they know is that SGM didn’t call the cops. Big deal, nobody called the cops, you try and deal with it Matthew 18 style as Christians. I Corinthans 6 says it better to do that and not go before the secular judges. SGM is trying to be biblical. John Piper is great and he loves CJ. Detwiler seems psychologically disturbed. Etc.
If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them”. This is why my default setting on this subject is that the SGM problem was not about calling cops and never will be. Then I try to explain what the problem was, usually to no avail. I think if you’ve never known a sociopath up close and personal, it is hard to grasp. Maybe we here are all better off because we won’t be taken in one day by lying signs and wonders and so called great anointings. We’ve seen the false apostle/hireling syndrome and will trust our gut discernment next time around.
Drew – I will assume you are genuinely trying to help. Here is an example of something that maybe highlights the difficulty some of us have with our approach.
In the previous – ..Post? Conversation thread? – you wrote an example of a caveat I gave and a caveat Nickname gave: “I don’t have first hand knowledge,” and “It’s my understanding,” and then you said “You see the problem, don’t you?”
My reply was nope, I do not, to which you replied “Possibly you don’t.” But then you didn’t explain what the problem was. How does that provide perspective?
I only added my caveat because I wanted it to be clear was unable to answer any other questions about the situation. But my source was a primary source, so I had no reason to doubt the basic info. And there are many readers here – including Brent himself – who could and would correct me if they know otherwise.
CJ, Larry, and the whole SGM/SGC leadership had us all hamstrung with some childish notion of truth and what we should talk about. Their intentions may have been good in the beginning, but in the end, they used what should have been guidelines as rules to keep us all under control and prevent us from comparing notes. And once we started comparing notes, then we began to see things differently.
So I made an honest comment that I have no reason to believe is not true. And I made it with a caveat. This is how people get at the truth when others want the truth hidden – sometimes you have incomplete information, sometimes you have rumors, but none of these things is wrong or untruthful in and of themselves. Could the kind of statement I made be used in court? Probably not. But it could be used to gather information and eventually find someone whose statement could be used.
This is why I don’t see the problem with what I said. I have found caveated information and various types of information that cannot be classified strictly as “fact” to be extremely useful in eventually getting at something that is strictly a fact. And it’s been my experience that people who try to shut down such information are either naive or deliberately controlling.
Meanwhile, you offered nothing to help me see the problem or offer me perspective, just a statement that could be interpreted as smug or snarky.
A question I have had for some years; What part did individual Care Group leaders have in the shepperding? If human behavior holds true; I would suspect some Care Group leaders of more rigidity than even the “Apostles,” other Care Group leaders being more flexible than the “Apostles.”
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The political scenario that I can most relate it to was former IRS director Lois Lerner who appeared to target “Tea Party” organizations making it difficult for them to collect money from supporters.
Did Mr. Obama ever call up Ms. Lerner and ask her to be hard on the Tea Party? Heavens no; quite possibly he never even knew what was going on. But she undoubtedly thought he would appreciate her work on his behalf. So she, on his behalf AS SHE IMAGINED IT, went further then what she was asked to do.
How much of that was true of the Care Group leaders? How many ended up pushing mindsets AS THEY IMAGINED IT that did not actually originate with leadership?
I agree that some Care Group leaders were definitely more rigid than others, and definitely less sophisticated about their rigid application than the leaders were; and there was a time when I would have thought some of them were even more rigid than the top leaders. But then I had my own personal run-ins with the very top leaders, and I no longer think that. They were rigid and hard core, too; and though I don’t really know why they didn’t initially appear that way, my guess is they were more skilled in how they presented themselves – and maybe that was just their natural way (which is why we were drawn to them in the first place).
There were a couple of upper level leaders (in my time) who seemed to be actually less rigid, but they were eventually ousted or left. Which is not to say all the ones who left fit that description – but all the ones who fit that description are now gone.
I find it interesting that you – as someone who acknowledges having no firsthand experience with Sovereign Grace Churches apart from singing Sovereign Grace worship music at your church – have previously attempted to discredit other commenters here for their lack of firsthand experience/knowledge of SGM’s leaders. Could you explain this intellectual inconsistency?
Maybe I’m missing something…but if I’m understanding you correctly, you believe your perspective, coming from a place of zero personal experience, would be more insightful than the perspective of people who were actually in Sovereign Grace churches and knew a lot of these leaders? Like, I sense that you are voicing skepticism about SGM’s issues and defending SGM’s leaders…and this is actually coming from a place of never having been part of a Sovereign Grace church? Are we to believe you have no dog in the fight, so to speak, but think you can offer a better perspective than someone who was there?
5 Years said, “If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them””
I’m not sure if you’re thinking about me in this (sorry if you’re not and please, completely ignore what I am about to say if that’s the case), but I didn’t finally speak up because there is a dissenting voice here. I’m a big girl and dissenting voices don’t upset me in the least. I spoke up because I have been smelling something fishy here with the illogic being put forward, the conflicting statements, what appears to be a bit of deception (I’m not saying someone has to tell us personal stuff or the color of their underwear, but at my ripe old age, I’m finally coming to accept when I smell deception, even a little bit, it usually means something more is going on than it appears), straw man arguments, and like I said, manipulation and propaganda. People can disagree with me all day long (and often do ;) ) and it’s no big deal. But after quite a while of feeling like the other stuff has been happening, I finally had to speak up.
Drew, we do know their hearts when they tell us. And they have told us, over and over. The talk of protecting the church and protecting an elder was articulated over and over since 2011. Pastors and church boards who chose to question or criticize SGM were shunned for not protecting the church or protecting an elder. The current SGM leader sat at my dining room table and intentionally gave me only part of a story to mislead me and try to quiet my criticism of Mahaney. He repeated the same act with my brother and the church board in CLE. We tried to follow the process in Matthew, first going to him, then going with witnesses, even following their umbilical suggestion of a mediator. The mediator had first hand knowledge of the story the leader used to mislead us and the mediator (a regional SGM leader, at the time) was quite clear that he had no idea how the leader could have had taken that from the situation. Was that leader disciplined for misleading us? Nope, he was promoted.
That is just one snipit. A really small and somewhat inconsequential snout, in the scheme of all that is wrong with SHM. If you would bother to go read the stories in this blog…go back to 2011 and read, you would see that it is quite reasonable to question whether the SGM leaders had evil intent.
Jenn, I wasn’t there. On the other hand I have followed denominational/church politics for a long time. After awhile, they all sound very similar.
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I’ve followed the SGM kerfluffle for at least [ 2011 ] that long.
I am sorry Jenn, that you were deeply wounded. I wish I could make it right.
All are free to share their opinions. If you are legit, then please don’t feel silenced. Many here are still hurting and coping. Personally I don’t buy your story. Why would you post on this forum for the first time ever; especially during the wake of SGM making national headline? Sorry Drew but I don’t buy it at all.
If readers are watching Drew’s responses, he is asking specific questions where responses could potentially be used to discredit this forum and/or any charges brought against SGM and its past and present ordained and non-ordained members.
I can’t help but to suspect SGM could be planting this type of questioning. Take it or leave it folks but in my opinion I think the sinking SGM ship has accelerated its pathway to destruction. It is only my opinion that merely from a legal play it would be a great strategy for SGM to use this forum as a means to discredit and cast doubt if it fears a forthcoming investigation.
Drew I hope my suspicions about you are inaccurate. But I’m sorry, if it smells like a duck then….
Run4hills, I think you are mixing your metaphors, but it brings some humor, and you still make your point :)
I’m not ready to give Drew that much significance yet. I am curious, though, to know what about this site draws someone for 7 years who is not SGM. To me, this site seems kind of personal. Either you were part of the SGM experience, or you relate to one or any of the various abuses that occur in similar types of religious power structures. The focus of this site is very narrow and a bit repetitive, so I wouldn’t expect someone without an emotional connection to last long. Why do you follow SGM, Drew? It’s not a big deal, I’m just curious.
I tend to agree that there’s something disingenuous about Drew’s comments. Drew, I’d really like for you to answer my question from before:
Are we to believe you have no dog in the fight, so to speak, but think you can offer a better perspective on Sovereign Grace churches and Sovereign Grace leaders than someone who was there?
I personally believe Drew is telling the truth about his non-SGM past. Some of the most vehement SGM defenders are those who came to admire the movement and CJ Mahaney from the outside. For whatever reason, they tend to have a really tough time coming to grips with the movement’s secret gritty past.
This is just my opinion, for as Drew is so happy to point out, I don’t know people’s hearts…but I tend to think there’s a level of pride involved in wanting to believe in one’s church celebrity crushes. We all like to believe we have good discernment…and that our church and our church leaders have good discernment. Particularly if our church has taken the position of supporting CJ Mahaney after his star was tarnished, it feels like there’s more at stake. Our leaders have essentially doubled down on the Mahaney love. They stuck with him even AFTER the dark side was readily available for discovery. Who wants to think their leaders have been snowed?
Kris- I think you nailed it. “Our leaders have essentially doubled down on the Mahaney love. They stuck with him even AFTER the dark side was readily available for discovery. Who wants to think their leaders have been snowed?”
As I have said before, I’ve heard Duncan speak, Carson speak, a lot of Piper, Keller, etc. I so looked up to the Gospel Coalition guys. Dealing with the facts about CJ and SGM was easy. Dealing with the others, especially Piper, took a couple years at least. It can be very painful to realize that men you admired chose deception.
As I’ve noted; don’t know Mahaney, not a Mahaney fan boy. My particular church never references SGM or Mahaney, I don’t actually know any Mahaney supporters. All I know about Mahaney comes from this blog, Jim’s blog – now closed, and Wartburg. I’ve read the stories, I’ve read the reports; read Wikipedia and have followed commenters.
SOMETIMES, but not always, it’s people standing OUTSIDE the trees than can see the forest from a different perspective.
An example from the recent past was the Duke Lacrosse scandal. The narrative; racists, bigoted, obnoxious jocks using their white privilege to rape poor black [ or white ] women. i.e. the team was composed of terrible men.
It was people not involved, like Prof K.C. Johnson, who began to look at the situation from OUTSIDE who saw flaws of the narrative. Ultimately it was outsiders’ more independent perspective that changed the then, favored storyline. The Duke Lacrosse team was actually vindicated per the charges – not vindicated of acting, at times, like obnoxious frat boy types. After all, they hired the strippers to begin with.
Finally, I was listening to Family Radio this morning; the reading is about Samson.
Here’s my question, How the heck did badboy-headcase Samson make into the Hebrews hall of fame?
{ Really God, what were you thinking? ] But there he is; warts and all.
5 Years said, “If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them””
I think what 5 Years said is very true in so many ways.
One of the reasons that SGM/SGC became so corrupt and fell IMO so far from being the Christian group they claim to be is they became quite insular in their culture. Part of what caused them to become insular was their not allowing dissenting voices. With that being the case SGM Leaders were around leaders “below” them and regular members always telling these leaders what these leaders wanted to hear vs. things these leaders needed to hear.
Many will say that SGM/CLC leaders never did well with disagreement.
A few psychological concepts that everyone should become familiar with include both “group think” and “confirmation bias.” When you don’t allow dissenting voices you open yourself and the group to one or both of these things happening.
Especially for an individual confirmation bias is good to be aware of where you tend hear and interpret information to confirm what you already believe. With this type of bias it is hard to change your mind even if the facts show otherwise. I am sure this is one factor with so many refusing to want to believe Mahaney is quite the hypocrite he has shown himself to be.
In other words, sometimes people want power and KNOW that the best way to have it is to go into a little space where they can build walls which will block out the sound of dissenting voices. Egg? Chicken?
Good question about not wanting to hear dissenting voices. Sadly there are advantages of not wanting to hear or not allowing dissenting opinions. When you do this you get conformance and expediency but there are costs as we have seen including going down the wrong path. The more someone thinks they know it all I am sure leads them to wanting to have it without allowing for discussion and dissenting views.
Also when you have an atmosphere where people can’t share it can lead to what one author calls “denial of peril” where a company or group seeks to deny that things are getting worse and some type of change needs to happen. This can lead to dire consequences.
Finally, I was listening to Family Radio this morning; the reading is about Samson.
Here’s my question, How the heck did badboy-headcase Samson make into the Hebrews hall of fame?
{ Really God, what were you thinking? ] But there he is; warts and all.
Not sure what you mean by being in “the Hebrew Hall of Fame.” Do you mean in the bible?
My take on him being there is his actions were a warning to others and perhaps a lesson that even with Samson’s sin he was able to do some good near his death.
Excellent article by the editor in chief of Christianity Today. I honestly can’t wait to hear how SGM will worm their way out of another call to action.
I’m curious. You say you’re this total outsider with no personal interest in Sovereign Grace churches and nothing at all invested in any of SGM’s stuff, beyond Sovereign Grace worship music. You keep implying you’re this very unbiased bystander.
Yet as far as I’ve been able to tell, NONE of your contributions here have been neutral. Everything you’ve said has either contained elements of defending SGM/its leaders or else seems bent on criticizing or dismissing SGM’s critics. You’ve frequently framed up our conversations about SGM’s issues in wildly extreme terms – for instance, insinuating that people here view SGM’s leaders as 100% bad with nothing but evil intentions (when virtually no one views leadership in such a non-nuanced way).
I guess my point is, you should quit pretending to be neutral. Your comments ALL have had a clear agenda. Whether this agenda is coming from a place of personal circumstantial investment or not, it’s still pretty obvious. You’re NOT some random passerby simply trying to figure out what you think of Sovereign Grace churches/ministries/leaders. You already have strong opinions in SGM’s favor. Likewise, you have strongly negative opinions about the critics.
Stop pretending you’re merely a fair and impartial observer. You’re not.
And understand, I’ve been interacting with SGM defenders for a long time (more than a decade). I know there’s a first time for everything, but I have never before encountered a defender who persists engaging in such a close-minded fashion but truly has nothing personal invested in SGM…whether that’s because they go to a Sovereign Grace church, are close to someone who does, are closely aligned with people aligned with SG’s leaders, or part of SG leadership’s legal defense team.
When I read Drew’s comments, I have found myself going in circles…..
I have thought “oh, sadly, he has been terribly wounded” in response to Drew’s statement:
“…I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom…”
Then his references to SGM care group leaders….
Then references to Lois Lerner and the IRS…
Then Sampson in the hall of fame???….
And this response to Jenn G, which I personally heard exactly the SAME line from an SGM pastor:
“I am sorry, Jenn, that you were deeply wounded. I wish I could make it right.”
Drew, whatever your “perspective” here or reasons why you are here — bottom line,
in my perspective you DO hijack and deter the focus of the current Denhollander discussion.
Perhaps, you would be “better served” (!!) to start your own blog, enabling you to go in every direction you deem fit.
The Christianity Today article is excellent. SGM is being called upon,by CT, to submit to an
unbiased investigation. This a very public request. The spotlight is increasing upon SGM.
LancasterCaster, thank you for the Christianity Today link.
“…an open wound has been festering in the evangelical community. It’s time for healing to begin.” Amen, Lord Jesus.
As many here have said, it is unlikely that SGM would ever willingly submit to an investigation, but remember…that would ONLY be because God has a better plan. We are watching it unfold, no doubt.
Actually, by the time he sat and lied to me, I was over being wounded by SGM. Instead, my previous experience protected me from charm offensive and gave me clarity and discernment.
I do however believe in accountability and godly justice, both of which are completely absent within SGM.
Would you acknowledge that you do have a particular opinion of Sovereign Grace and its leaders? And that your opinion is already formed? And that your responses to the others here are based on this already-formed opinion?
That CT article is outstanding! Thank you for the link. Did you notice it is written by the editor in chief? Glory to God.
The quote about how SGM churches are independent and so a church would have to call for an investigation, SGM can’t do it (or SGC as they are now)…is that true? Have they dispensed with the authority of the SGC oversight over local churches? Or is that spin?
The reason I ask is that after the lawsuit, there was an SGM statement to the tune that they didn’t have authority over local churches. What a lie. It was obvious when we attended that SGM ruled with an iron fist over local churches. IIRC Detwiler went and filed a written affadavit that they were lying and the A team or regional leaders or board or whatever did indeed have authority over local churches. Have they completely dropped that model? Did the new polity eliminate the central control? Just curious.
Anyway, way to go Rachel. Does anybody else think it is hilarious that God decided to use a woman?! They would not listen to men and now they have to deal with the lowliest of all creatures, a female. She didn’t even go through her husband, she actually talked herself. How humiliating for them. Plus she is Reformed so you can’t toss her for bad doctrine. It’s like the perfect moment. Hey Kris and Guy, and Jim P, thanks for all that you did in the beginning and over the years. Thanks to you posters for keeping it alive. And I will say thanks to Brent for his part too :)
C.J. Mahaney used the situation with JT to BLACKMAIL LT. You do raise a good point that C.J. Mahaney was willing to not do anything about what JT did as long as LT went along and didn’t leave. C.J. was especially demanding LT be quiet about his disagreement with the group moving towards Calvinism. It is likely that C.J. would conceal other things if it would protect the image of Sovereign Grace.
I said this a long time ago that is C.J. Mahaney was willing to blackmail someone and hide his sin then I wondered what else Mahaney had done and thought was OK? Now it sounds like this was concealing cases of children being molested.
We already know that C.J. was able to conceal his son’s pot smoking when it would have been a disqualifier for any other leader within SGM. Mahaney showed there he had no issue with rules not applying to him.
R Denhollander’s proclomation that in the Evangelical church structures there is: “a systematic burying of reports of sexual abuse; forgive and forget; not reporting to police; moving leadership around who either were involved in abuse or knew of abuse….continues and there is NO accountability.”
In the interview on Fox she states: “….if my abuse had not been Larry Nasser but instead was in Sovereign Grace Ministries under the leadership of CJ Mahaney….I would not only NOT have evangelical support, I would be actively VILIFIED AND LIED ABOUT by every single evangelical leader out there.”-
SGM pooh-poohed Denhollanders request for G.R.A.C.E to open an unbiased investigation on behalf of victims. However, it looks as though the (genuine!) Gospel-centered, Jesus loving Denhollander has (graciously!) (appealed!) for justice on behalf of the weak, the victims, the silenced — as Christ has exhorted us to do.
Upon any responsive investigations, the controlling polity and structure of SGM will then be exposed in the light of day—ie, in the national news. This would open opportunity (again) for leaders confessions, and true repentance. Will this happen??? Jesus came to “bear witness to the Truth” —always, there is the battles for the truth.
Brent – I think it would be more productive for you to work on your book.
Waters – Good to hear from you again! I believe an independent investigation of SGM/SGC will largely depend, as it did in Rachaels’s sexual abuse case, on the collective outcry and support from those in the shadows who found courage to come forward as she led the charge. There was a rally cry of injustice and people responded.
I realize all of us who have experienced various forms of abuse from SGM are probably exhausted from the long battles we’ve engaged in over the past decade. I know we have been disappointed, discouraged, and disheartened many times over the years when we thought justice would finally prevail, only to see our hopes dashed.
However, I trust we can see how God has been faithful to not let SGM out of the heavenly headlock He’s had them in for so long.
Because of God’s tenacity, I believe we will surely see justice prevail and more importantly see God glorified by either the repentance or the undoing of SGM.
I think it is very important all SGMSurvivors make their voices heard via letters, emails, interviews, etc to whatever media source is carrying her story, … which has now become our story; so that an overwhelming outcry will resonate and gather momentum throughout the Christian community.
There is more at stake here than our own abuse, as Rachael has so well demonstrated. She has used her experience to gain a platform from which to have an exponential impact.
Like Waters said, not only will the cover up of sexual abuse be exposed but the “controlling polity and structure of SGM will then be exposed in the light of day.”
Systemic spiritual abuse precipitated by a perversion of spiritual authority is the head of the snake. I believe it is what creates the opportunity for all other types of abuse to occur in the church.
Brothers and sisters, we have another opportunity to before us, an opportunity for our voices to be heard, as well as to make a difference for the next generation, a generation who has likely been disillusioned and confused by what has taken place regarding Christianity in their lifetime. This includes SGM, Mars Hill, and many other organizations who’ve also experienced spiritual abuse.
I’m praying this will be the decisive episode for SGM. I’m praying those who’ve been adversely affected by SGM will see God’s justice prevail. I’m also praying that somehow all of this will cause our children and the younger generation to sit up and take notice ….. God is faithful and He can be trusted to vindicate His name.
5years and Brent,
I have removed your back-and-forth. As much as I think it’s interesting and worthy of discussion, and as much as I absolutely believe SGM’s/SGC’s issues are FAR GREATER than the abuse coverups (which are really just a symptom of the dysfunctional system, not the main problem), it’s better to keep the super lengthy accusations/refutations out of this conversation for the moment. Maybe later.
Kris- no problem!
B Donkey- nice post. “Systemic spiritual abuse precipitated by a perversion of spiritual authority is the head of the snake. I believe it is what creates the opportunity for all other types of abuse to occur in the church.”
Yes. Setting up strict guidelines for the future about how to immediately deal with pedophiles and other sex abusers doesn’t get to the root, or suddenly make a place safe and acceptable. I wonder if Rachel knows that or if she just knows about the sex abuse cases.
forgot to add….
I do hope this link can stay, it got erased with the other post.
https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?14,113601,page=1
19 page collection of SGM related material. A lot of posts Kris made as opening posts are in there, and it paints a picture of the overall SGM atmosphere. It is more concise than trying to send somebody to this website. And it has statements by CJ, Harvey, Harris, etc so its reasonably representative of all sides although not up to date. Right now it would be my “go to” link to learn about SGM. I reread the whole thing the past week and it does not take an unreasonable amount of time to do so.
One of the problems I see with people’s desire for an investigation is – the attention span of the internet. Rachel spoke, a lot of people listened but in this era of crazy politics, that’s yesterday’s news and we’re on to the NEXT BIG THING – whatever it is.
Other than “survivors” who has any real desire to pursue a long, drawn out investigation of what has happened in the increasingly distant past. C.J., Dave Harvey, Harris, et al. are gone. Do the surviving SGM churches have any desire to bring to life sleeping dogs? Probably not.
So thinking that this is going to crest in an investigation of SGM’s past seems highly unlikely.
My thoughts only.
Drew C.J. is not gone. He is the Sr. Pastor of the Louisville KY Sovereign Grace Church. Though perhaps not technically in leadership of what is now called Sovereign Grace Church (formerly SGM) I am sure he still has significant power leading this group.
I do see your point on “attention spans.” My guess is that the leadership of SGC is doing whatever they can to hold off with hopes that the attention for this will die down. Hopefully it will be different this time but sadly in the past this spotlight has had limited results. A significant number of churche$ did leave $GC and their contributions.
I still really wonder how SGC can claim they are a Christian group with all the action/hiding/inaction that I have seen over the years and especially since Brent’s documents came to light. They will have to give an account one day to God for their actions. I really wonder if they have taken this to heart at all.
ONE other things: Independent investigation require $$$$$$.
So, who’s volunteering to pay for this? Kris and Guy? [ a little humor there ]
_____
I could be wrong but I thought a couple years ago somebody started a “gofundme” page to pursue a lawsuit against SGM. I don’t know what became of that but probably not much.
I agree that it is unlikely another investigation will be done, as long as SGM / SGC is the one footing the bill. However, what this whole conversation has done is discredit the so-called “independent” investigation done in the past, and which SGM / SGC has relied on as proof of their cooperation and evidence that the leadership never did anything improper.
Rachael Denhollander dissected it in such a way that it should be difficult for non-SGM/SGC organizations to continue supporting SGM/SGC without questions being raised about the basis for such support and their own credibility.
And whether the spotlight fades or not, people outside SGM / SGC plus people within SGM / SGC who are not afraid to read things critical of SGM/SGC, will at least have a tool to help them better understand something fundamental about SGM/SGC history.
Also, different line of commentary – if Ms. Denhollander’s perspective is biased/unreliable because of her status as a victim (as SGM/SGC leadership stated), what does that say about their perspective being similiarly biased because they are the accused?
Or don’t they see the correlation?
Drew said, “Other than “survivors” who has any real desire to pursue a long, drawn out investigation of what has happened in the increasingly distant past.”
Who has a desire to see justice done to victims (and additionally, who else desires to see the church as a spotless bride?) I guess I’d start out with God. Then to that list, I’d add people who value justice.
I’d say that list is pretty sufficient right there.
Drew, I’ve never heard of an independent investigation fund raiser. How sure are you that that actually happened and never took off? I do know that Boz’s group GRACE has said they would do one, but am unaware of the costs.
I had an interaction with an SGM pastor this weekend. 1. It reminded me how glad I am no longer dealing with SGM. 2. It showed me that SGM’s response is to double down and actively choose to ignore any evidence presented. Given this seems to be where things are, I expect Denhollander, after some time will present other evidence, that she has alluded to, beyond what has already been made known. I believe this stiff-necked behavior will eventually lead to a long, slow death for SGM. At some point, if the evidence is bad enough, T4G will have to sever ties or they will all suffer financially.
Rachael D. actually committed to spearhead the necessary fundraising for the independent investigation if SGC were to agree to it and donate to it herself so that there is no extra cost to SGC. It’s in the 5th paragraph of this Facebook post on her account:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/rachael-denhollander/public-response-to-sovereign-grace-churches/1694664773947169/
Balaam’s Donkey, I LOVE your inspiring words! Those were some of my initial thoughts as I watched Rachael’s story, but you brought even more inspiration to it. While I have not been “involved” in these issues lately, I have continued in prayer regarding all of it,for all of those victimized-not just my family. I have been, and continue to do a lot of still necessary healing. I am confident that God will heal my family from all of those years, and am so encouraged to see Him bring this back to the forefront again!I also love how lovingly and gently my Savior is, as He shows me where I went wrong-not for judgment, but for growth and for me to see His everlasting faithfulness; His persistent love. I don’t have as much time to read and respond to things, but I spend a lot of time in prayer. I am encouraged by what I see on this page today, and just wanted to say thank you! <3
“Who has a desire to see justice done to victims (and additionally, who else desires to see the church as a spotless bride?) I guess I’d start out with God. Then to that list, I’d add people who value justice.”
+++++++
God doesn’t need an independent investigation and He doesn’t actually need people who value justice [ as they see it. ]
___________
All I’m saying; more than just a few times in the last several years people have gotten their hopes up that justice would be served – as they saw it. To some extent, at least, they won. C.J. really doesn’t appear to be a factor in SGM polity, I don’t think SGM is “sheperding” any more; home-schoolers are no longer deified as the only way to go and people like Harvey, Harris, Detwiler et.al are gone. The Washingtonian is NOT going to do another article on SGM’s past and SGM leadership has NO REASON TO THINK their detractors would actually change their minds if an “independent investigation” cleared them.
BTW, I don’t think any SGM churches were actually charged with a crime were they? Others may know but it appears only Morales was ever charged with a crime [ very guilty ] and I don’t think he was paid staff was he?
Drew,
Foundational Christianity is…God ‘works’, moves through His people.Through prayer and action.
God places great value in justice – “Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of Your throne.”(PS 89:15)
Working out justice is one type of ‘good works’ we do. For example, the decades long battles to stop abortion has included vigilant and consistent prayer, and legal actions. Of course, not every Christian is called to every battle. I have learned, if a particular battle has entered my ‘field’, I listen for and obey the Lords directions. He is the Captain, He knows the end from the beginning!
Balaams Donkey,
Your post on 3/17 is an excellent synopsis for the battle we are currently in. Highlights:
“I think it is very important ….to make our voices heard to whatever media source is carrying
her (R.D.) story.” — Currently, that would be World Magazine and Fox News…any others?
“SYSTEMIC SPIRITUAL ABUSE PRECIPITATED BY A PERVERSION OF SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY IS THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE. I BELIEVE IT IS WHAT CREATES THE OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL OTHER TYPES OF ABUSE TO OCCUR IN THE CHURCH.” The head of the snake must be axed to stop the slithering PERVERSION of spiritual authority.
Drew, if you think CJ isnt involved with major decisions regarding SGM, you are naive. If he isnt the face of SGM, why isn’t the new SGM leader the one headlining big events, instead of CJ?
But, more to the point, it was never about getting rid of CJ. It was always about open, honest, transparent discussion about the wrongs that have happened, accompanied by true repentance, and to protect other kids from being molested. Some of these examples of moving pastors because their sons have abused other kids are not old and their are kids still at risk. Moreover, until SGM comes clean and also actually try to understand pedophiles and their behavior, every kid in an SGM church is at risk, IMHO.
Besides, if, and I am say I’m not if, because I feel as though this has not been confirmed in a capacity that would stand up in court (but believe there is a possibility that it could be) but if CJ bribed LT, threatening to reveal a situation where sexual abuse went on reported, then there is evidence that contrary to his claims, CJ did cover up sexual abuse. Furthermore, others have reported his firsthand involvement in covering it up in Fairfax. Why does this matter? CJ is the senior pastor of a church, where this type of behavior could likely continue. The SGM loyal have made it clear that they put, “protecting an elder” above everything else.
Drew, genuine question, why do you participate here? The underlying message in so many of your posts seem to say, “Please, everyone, shut up and go away now.” They come across to me as really negative of anyone here trying to do what they feel convicted that they should do or to discuss. Can you help me to understand what your motivation for being here is? I’m not saying you don’t have a right to be here and participate, I’m just confused as to what I often see in what you write. Like that time recently when you asked a very direct question about Rachael Denhollander, which seemed to throw her into a bad light, only to say in your next post that you already knew what the answer was.
What’s happening with you which makes you participate here if you just think everyone should shut up and leave SGM alone? I remember the day when people from SGM / SGC and the pastor’s college would allegedly come here and pretend to be someone else to discourage open discourse, and it often feels the same way when I read your posts. Am I way off?
I went back and read something that makes me realize that the independent investigation only covered CLC, not SGM. Of course I knew that, but I guess I had CLC and SGM/SGC blurred in my mind (I had that problem even when I went to CLC). So SGM has never undergone an investigation at all, even though many of the leaders who went to Kentucky were named in the lawsuit because they were leaders at CLC when the events occurred. I think that is a distinction worth emphasizing.
Out there, SGM had a $400,000+ investigation by AOR. And SGM is ok but this blog is bad.
Then there was the independent investigation related to the lawsuit. Look how that went. Wasn’t it another hundred grand at least?
Do we really need to waste money on another? Isn’t Grant Layman’s statement under oath enough to show the lies?
I think Justice is best served by finding some foreign mission group that works with street kids and tries to keep them out of a life of prostitution. If CJ goes to jail that doesn’t help the millions of victims all over the world. Hubby and I help out one group in one city in one country, and there are countless others. I think more healing and happiness would come from sending money to good Christian missions than blowing more hundreds of thousands on CJ. I hate to watch another cent be wasted. Maybe a collection for Wallace and Happymom and the others would be nice.
Maybe I will change my mind on this but right now I think money could be better spent.
Keep in mind our nation faces potential severe hyperinflation, with the collapse of the Petro dollar, and unfunded liabilities for future social security, Medicare, etc. Unless they default on bonds and plunge many people into ruin, they have to print more money. Within 10 years our standard of living could drop in half. CJ stole so much of our money, don’t send another nickle in his direction, even for one more investigation. Pay off debt, save the best you can. Hey, I could be totally wrong, but at least think about it.
I am not necessarily endorsing future investigations. My main point is that the previous investigations should not be used to reassure people. And of course SGM/SGC will not permit outside investigators to come in, because they know they do have situations to cover (moving pastors around, CJ’s attempt at blackmail, etc.).
But I do not subscribe to any of your reasons for not having an investigation. I think we do have a responsibility to hold SGM/SGC accountable in some way (to the extent that many of us once supported them with money or simply attendance/endorsement). And your last paragraph seems irrelevant to this discussion – or at best, it sounds like an excuse to not do anything (which I don’t think is really your attitude).
5year, to quote RachelDenhollandwr, “How much is a little girl worth?” In SGM it could be asked, “How much is a little girl or boy worth?”
That is why an investigation is still necessary. It’s not just about justice for the past. It’s about protecting children, now. I honestly worry for my friends who did not leave SGM and the safety of their children.
SGM has shown no demonstrable change in their attitudes towards handling of abuse situations and I believe many, if not most of us believe children are still at risk.
A new Facebook Support Group for PARENTS of sexual abuse victims started by Ann and Richard Cook, parents of a courageous sexual abuse survivor from the Nathaniel Morales’ trial.
( http://wjla.com/…/nathaniel-morales-of-covenant-life-church… )
Often, dads and moms of sex abuse victims are left on their own struggling with years of grief, anger, stigma, sorrow and the emotional rollercoaster that can follow the trauma of sexual abuse occurring to one or more of their children.
This is a safe space for them. #MyChildToo
https://www.facebook.com/groups/OurChildToo/about/ (from the group’s description):
“Our Child Too. With just three words you know who we are. We are parents whose child was sexually abused.
Inspired by the social media tags such as MeToo and TimesUp we choose these three words to identify our outreach to other parents whose child or children were sexually abused. We hope to provide a place for parents to give voice their own struggle, their own pain, and their own healing, as together we guide and care for our precious children to healing.”
Is it too late to have a criminal trial? The lawsuit was a for a civil trial. I don’t know all the legal technicalities of the subject, but wouldn’t justice be better served by a criminal trial? Or were they allowed clergy confidentiality privilege back then and a criminal trial would be a waste? A verdict could make them pay out restitution money even if they don’t go to jail.
Jenn- I think churches all over the nation will handle these things better. I think the internet probably scares them. People are fed up and very quick to post online. In that sense I would not worry about SGM kids more than any other church. I would think SGM is being very careful to avoid anything else. The new book of church order has a short phrase about calling the cops but I don’t feel like looking for it now.
The real problem is that it happens in the first place. So much pedophilia is being exposed nationally and SGM stories are a drop in the bucket. I don’t know what the answer is except to pray for revival and do whatever you can to guard kids in your sphere of influence. It is all so horrible.
By the way for clarity- my crack about CJ stealing money does not meant theft in the legal sense. I am sure it was in keeping with statute law. It was a reference to the way the cult operated to drain your finances, and let him give huge financial gifts to his buddies and children. I just don’t want to see God’s people drained of more money if it is not God’s will.
I think I am wrong about verdicts. Criminal trials you only go to jail, but civil trials you pay fines? Is that right? Well anyway, can there be a criminal trial?
Jenn,
I agree.
Gang… no matter what, there WILL NOT be an independent investigation. It is a losing proposition in the eyes of Mahaney. He KNOWS he is guilty, as do the rest of that leadership team. They won’tdo anything.
That said, I do envision “Lig”, Mohler and the rest of the enablers of Mahaney to get a ton of pressure to leave SGM in the dust. I believe that will happen.
Eventually SGM will change their names again and continue their man- centered worship of Mahaney and future leaders. Those that will remain will continue their ungodly support of their idols.
5 Years said, “The lawsuit was a for a civil trial. I don’t know all the legal technicalities of the subject, but wouldn’t justice be better served by a criminal trial?”
I think only God knows which is the better way. I find God seldom moves in a straight line, and what we think is best is often not what He thinks is the best way. (So much higher is the sky above the earth, are His ways above our ways. OK, I didn’t actually look it up, so I can’t remember that scripture word for word, but ya feel me, right? ;) )
For that reason, I think supporting people in following God however He leads them is really the best thing, rather than trying to figure out if they are doing the best thing or not. I often think of the scripture in John where (I think) Peter is asking Jesus about another disciple and Jesus essentially says, “What is it to you? You follow me.” I’m not sure how God wants to do this work of healing and redemption. Maybe here on earth for man to see, or maybe on the other side of the veil. But I do want to be the one encouraging my siblings in Christ to follow Him and Him alone, even if it means seemingly completely disagreeing with my thoughts or even what He is telling me to do. I figure, what is it to me, I am to follow Jesus and love as He calls me to love.
I wish all those called to follow Him, to do so with all of your hearts, and soul and mind.
“better served by a criminal trial?”
_______
My guess, police never thought there was a crime committed by SGM pastors/leadership.
Accusation isn’t proof.
Drew, again, not sure of your purpose in what you just said, but your guess would be way off.
The police DID think there was a crime committed? What SGM paid staff was arrested? I wasn’t that close to know who got arrested.
Drew … please save all of us the time and please read Brent Detwiler’s site. He has tons of emails from SGM Leaders who implicate THEMSELVES for multiple offenses including blackmail, lying, protecting SGM vs. protecting those that were injured, etc..
Crimes were committed. Grant Layman even stated UNDER OATH that they knew that they should have reported pedophiles to the police but they DID NOT.
The only reason SGM got “off” was because of the statute of limitations in the state. Sad thing for SGM is that there is no statute of limitations in heaven. They will answer for all the harm that they caused those that were hurt because of their crime.
stunned, if you think I was criticizing the civil trial that was not my intention. I have the highest regard for Susan Burke. Boz would perhaps be a great idea but as “somewhere” said, it isn’t going to happen.
We’ve spent years criticizing SGM for keeping these problems in the church and dealing with them in the church, without going to the civil authorities. So why do we want yet another para church organization involved to handle it within the church? Isn’t that inconsistent? If perps should be turned in to the cops right away, then in the current call for justice why aren’t we calling on the law? Why are we asking for another Christian investigation that has no legal clout?
Genuine question I am asking here. There must be a reason this never went to a criminal trial. Money? Statute of limitations? When they let Morales go away and said nothing, so he could repeat his evil deeds again and again, was that legal at the time to not mandate reporting a perp? So is there no criminal case? Or no money for what it would cost?
Since I assume Brent is still reading here I suppose he would know. Or maybe Pam Palmer. If a collection is going to be taken for an investigation that would probably run well over $100,000, how much money would a criminal trial cost? I have no idea. But why do yet one more investigation if they can be taken to court and tried as criminals? What about the hush fund thing BD wrote about, isn’t that criminal? Wouldn’t that send them to jail? Detwiler has all the emails, so there is a proof.
There must be a reason why it is not a criminal case, but I don’t know what the reason is.
In defense of Drew, this isn’t too clear. If the statute of limitations has run out and clergy were not mandated to report, then maybe there is no crime, according to statute law. Moral law is God’s true law, and yes there were crimes and sins, but the cops operate according to the statute law. No arrests have ever been made, so I wonder if technically no crimes were committed. Churches have quite a bit of immunity, or did. Maybe there is no criminal case. Drew is correct, there have been no arrests.
5years, just because the statute of limitations has expired does not mean a crime never occurred, it means that they can no longer prosecute the case.
5years, not all of this is ancient history, some of it is still recent.
What recent crimes?
I feel like we have had this discussion before. Obviously, the cases of abuse are crimes. As for not reporting – I don’t think CLC leaders were obligated to report, so I don’t think a crime was committed there. I think – but I’m not 100% sure – the situation Grant admitted involved perjury or lying to the police about what was known when. And blackmail is a crime, but who is going to lodge a complaint against CJ – Larry? That would involve discussing the issue that was being used as blackmail, which I feel quite certain he will not do.
There are other situations in other churches that are fairly recent – there is one that I think occurred in Pennsylvania (not Philadelphia) in which a pastors son abused another boy, so the pastor was moved to another church – is that right? Brent keeps track and I am sure can summarize the events and break down what is criminal, etc. more succintly than the rest of us.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/the-differences-between-a-criminal-case-and-a-civil-case.html
Civil vs criminal trials. Interesting.
Here is a recent example. http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/hush-fund-set-up-by-top-sgm-leaders-to-meet-the-demands-of-a.html
And that example occurred in a mandatory reporting state.
Has Brent has taken this to the police?
Brent’s post was 3 years ago. So, he didn’t report this or he did and nothing has happened.
I don’t know the answer. Sometimes investigations span multiple years and if a juvenile is involved we might never know the results, especially if the victim’s family did not cooperate.
If the child victim does not want to go public that needs to be respected. No matter how much counsel they get that it wasn’t their fault, it can be a very embarrassing and difficult thing to have to testify in court and talk about it. That limits prosecution. Even if you think they should report it, and try to get them to so others will be protected, at the end of they day if they want to keep their trauma private you can’t force them to do otherwise. This is one reason why statutes of limitation for this should be very long (if they exist at all). It can take decades to get up the courage to go public.
somewhereintime- On another subject, what still bothers me is the Gospel Coalition statement. Out of all the thousands of posts on this blog, they select this one quote to represent the vindictive bad blogs.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit/
“One of the so-called discernment blogs—often trafficking more in speculation and gossip than edifying discernment—reprinted a comment from a woman who issued this ominous wish, “I hope [this lawsuit] ruins the entire organization [of SGM] and every single perpetrator and co-conspirator financially, mentally and physically.””
Do you know where that quote came from? From somebody molested at age 13 against the outside wall of an SGM member home. Can you understand the strength of their feelings and desire to see justice…even if it sounds harsh?
I know TGC and Carson, etc were confronted about this. I doubt they picked out that one quote, they probably had a ghost writer help and just signed off on it. But I am not aware of any retraction despite numerous pleas for an apology. You can’t ignore all the posts here by former SGM staff and members, many of which are not the slightest bit bitter, and pick out one quote from a sex abuse victim as representative, and show no compassion for their trauma.
You say “That said, I do envision “Lig”, Mohler and the rest of the enablers of Mahaney to get a ton of pressure to leave SGM in the dust. I believe that will happen.” Maybe. But it is hard to picture any true blessing on their ministries if they don’t apologize for the enabling.
Sadly they had to pick out one of the more extreme comments vs. the more typical comments.
Even though I kind of see their point on bitterness using this quote shows just how lacking in empathy the Gospel Coalition is on the affect Sovereign Grace Churches has had on people. Shouldn’t TGC show some concern that the organization lead by C.J. Mahaney has produced such extreme cases like this where someone was so badly abused that they have these long term feelings?
Just so callous to use this statement but then again many in these groups are masters at deflection and finding excuses to not look internally.
PDI – “If the child victim does not want to go public that needs to be respected. No matter how much counsel they get that it wasn’t their fault, it can be a very embarrassing and difficult thing to have to testify in court and talk about it. That limits prosecution. Even if you think they should report it, and try to get them to so others will be protected, at the end of they day if they want to keep their trauma private you can’t force them to do otherwise. ”
_____________-
PDI, that option has been taken away. It no longer matters what the victim wants. They are no longer allowed to keep their trauma private if they chose to talk to their church staff about it.
If you’re the counselor/pastoral staff, you pick up the phone then and there and call you state child protection team. Then the full bureacracy will get involved and who knows what will happen next.
Drew- from what I know from one good source, the state has to have evidence in order to prosecute, which means victims have to talk, or, if the state can get a warrant to go into the perp’s house, they can get the perp’s computer which invariably has child porn on it. But I guess you have to not let the perp know you called the cops or they can toss their computer real fast.
Obviously, in an effort to aid law enforcement, you want to encourage victims to talk. Which means you don’t make up a moral equivalence and tell the kid that they are a sinner too and heap guilt on them. You tell them it is zero their fault what the grownup did, zero, and they can help other kids if they will testify. There are ways to stay private, like screens and so forth.
I don’t know how it works if parents tell the church, the church calls the cops, but the kid does not want to talk. A lot of fear can be involved. All that to say in retrospect I don’t think churches were well equipped to deal with this, and I don’t just mean SGM. One hopes that all that has transpired will cause changes in the future, at least in this area.
All that to say in retrospect I don’t think churches were well equipped to deal with this, and I don’t just mean SGM.
____________-
Absolutely true.
Public schools, private schools, state agencies, police departments etc. ALL did the same thing. It wasn’t just the churches.
Drew
I’d agree with that, but it doesn’t make it any less of a crime. Grant layman KNEW they were disobeying the law. He said it under oath.
I could understand if they didn’t know out of ignorance… even so, the law is still broken .
However, they knew and STILL chose to not report the abuse for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.
That decision cost many children and their families untold pain and trauma in their lives.
SgM’s response to them? Who gives a rat’s a**!
Well done godly leaders of sgm, well done.
“However, they knew and STILL chose to not report the abuse for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.”
___________
I couldn’t make that stretch myself. I wasn’t there, I really don’t know their hearts.
Well, actually, Drew, there is a statement made in an email by PB written to MP that speaks to your comment. It’s in “Plan C” of a financial agreement they were working out with a family of a sexually abused son. PB mentions specifically that one of the negatives about “Plan C” is that it “Could cause additional harm to our reputation and subsequent loss of support.” I think that lends some evidence to the fact that there was concern about protecting themselves and not losing financial and/or other support. So, you actually don’t have to stretch, nor would you have to judge someone’s heart.
It’s in the same link that Jenn Glover mentioned yesterday after you posted a question.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/hush-fund-set-up-by-top-sgm-leaders-to-meet-the-demands-of-a.html
The worst thing is that Nathan Morales had multiple other victims after leaving CLC that probably wouldn’t have happened (or at least some not happened) had CLC reported Morales. The victim includes the children of the woman he married out West.
You just wonder what CLC Leadership was thinking. Was protecting the image of their church and group worth a number of boys being victims of Morales?
Drew-
There was a controlling stronghold in SGM that wanted to keep a grip on people. Many felt intimidated and fearful. The leaders did what they did to preserve their hold on people, and covering up sex abuse was needed for their reputation, to keep that hold on people.
As “somewhere” said, “for the sole purpose of protecting themselves and their precious club.”
We knew all kinds of churches back in the 80s and 90s that kept sin issues in the church. I don’t think anybody ever called the cops. It was seen as the responsibility of the church. Like you said, it was schools and other groups too. Summer camp, boy scouts, families…..people didn’t call the cops. They just didn’t. But it didn’t mean they had a controlling stronghold; often they felt bad for victims and were ignorant and inept. ( I will include myself as ignorant and inept. I knew a couple women who were raped many years ago and never even thought of the cops.) Pastors truly cared, but they didn’t call the cops.
SGM could turn around and be the new face of calling the cops, but it would still be for the same reason- to maintain their control over people. To look good. To keep their grip.
Its fair to say you were not there and didn’t know their hearts. But to some degree those of us there could tell. You knew which pastor was tender hearted and kind, and which ones would jump on people instantly. Over time you could tell. A lot of lower rung leaders were as under that stronghold’s grip as the people. Eventually we saw one caring man get degifted and another leave. Pastors either got hard or got out. That stronghold demanded abnormal loyalty.
Trying to make the SGM problem all about not calling cops is a mistake. The problem was wanting to keep a tight controlling grip on people.
My view of humanity – We’re pretty complex in our motives and our heart.
I would find it hard to believe that SGM leadership motives were only evil.
Drew- for the most part, that is true. We all are mixed and complex. A new creation with a heart for God, and the old nature too.
What are the motives though, of a wolf, tare, hireling, or false apostle? The NT describes all of them in the church. False brethren too. We are told to know them by their fruit. Can we do that? Is it possible to recognize such people? How do you distinguish between somebody with good motives who is ignorant or deceived, and somebody with evil motives, if they both bungle situations in a way that causes great harm? If somebody has a pattern of lying, and they are not just getting dementia but lying, what are they? Weak and fearful, or evil? There is a lot to think about and I don’t have all the answers, but once you go to a decent church you can look back and see a huge difference.
We don’t have to guess about their zeal for protecting themselves – they have been front and center with it. Over and over during the last years, SGM leaders have chastised those who did not, “protect the church” or “protect an elder.” This isn’t speculation, it’s fact.
Drew, what is your vested interest in SGM that drives you to choose to ignore evidence that is contrary to the SGM narrative?
Hi Drew, I posted this 2 days ago but I didn’t see an answer. Excuse me if you did, and I missed it. But here’s what it was:
Drew, genuine question, why do you participate here? The underlying message in so many of your posts seem to say, “Please, everyone, shut up and go away now.” They come across to me as really negative of anyone here trying to do what they feel convicted that they should do or to discuss. Can you help me to understand what your motivation for being here is? I’m not saying you don’t have a right to be here and participate, I’m just confused as to what I often see in what you write. Like that time recently when you asked a very direct question about Rachael Denhollander, which seemed to throw her into a bad light, only to say in your next post that you already knew what the answer was.
What’s happening with you which makes you participate here if you just think everyone should shut up and leave SGM alone? I remember the day when people from SGM / SGC and the pastor’s college would allegedly come here and pretend to be someone else to discourage open discourse, and it often feels the same way when I read your posts. Am I way off?
Stunned, thanks for the question.
____
When I write my posts I’m thinking “perspective.” When painful things happen, one good way to heal is to put the painful trauma “in perspective.”
Telling yourself lies [I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom] doesn’t really heal.
So I share – perspective.
Drew
I suspect you are a current serving pastor, care group leader, or close family member of your SGMs interior.
My advice to you is to seek professional help from outside your Order. Here’s why:
You wrote,
“If the child victim does not want to go public that needs to be respected. No matter how much counsel they get that it wasn’t their fault, it can be a very embarrassing and difficult thing to have to testify in court and talk about it. That limits prosecution. Even if you think they should report it, and try to get them to so others will be protected, at the end of they day if they want to keep their trauma private you can’t force them to do otherwise. ”
Sorry but this is exactly why a third party, non-church should investigate this group immediately. You are the adult. In protecting these children you and/or the members of your Order have an immediate responsibility to contact local law enforcement. There are and were systems in place to care for victims. These local authorities have deep connections with professional counselors with specialized degrees and experience. Furthermore if you are a true friend to this hurt child then you would walk with them every step of the way. “Going public” does not mean anyone is calling TMZ. That you cannot see this is exactly why your organization must be stopped. You are not law enforcement. You’ve likely never even taken a qualified class in child psychology. You are not God. You do not know what is best for these children.
“PDI, that option has been taken away. It no longer matters what the victim wants. They are no longer allowed to keep their trauma private if they chose to talk to their church staff about it.”
Correct! Come on Drew. Be a friend, not a coward!! I think we’ve seen what keeping things quite “for the victims sake” has accomplished in both churches and many other types of institutions. Here’s the point. The law was broken. Your responsibility is to report this broken law to your local authority.
“If you’re the counselor/pastoral staff, you pick up the phone then and there and call you state child protection team. Then the full bureacracy will get involved and who knows what will happen next.”
Who knows what will happen? Here’s a thought. Test it. See what will happen. Most important, don’t hand off your victim and move on. Befriend them and stay right by their side.
Bureaucracy will be involved regardless of whether your instruction decides to treat it or you have the local authorities treat it. Hiding in any way leaves other children open to getting hurt. The institutional officers that hide sex abuse for any reason are of more harm to children than the b*****d that actually hurt the child. Hiding also causes others to get hurt!
Drew/pastor/caregroupleader/familymember, i know it is hard but just try to see that there is a big world outside of your bubble. Civil servants care for these types of cases in high quantities.
In my opinion Drew, someone needs to shut down your Order to protect the public interest.
I would add a few things here. C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak (now deposed) and other leaders may have started out well with good motives as perhaps seem when they had TAG a teaching only ministry. Then as sadly happens with many leaders is perhaps their success gets to them and their egos and it goes from pure motives to something else. These leaders are blinded by both their success and egos. Also the culture these leaders have produced can be quite insular with few if any willing to tell them the truth they need to hear.
I imagine if you could look deep down inside of most of these leaders they would sincerely think they have honorable motives when in fact many of their actions are quite sad and go against Christ’s teaching. Also they feel their group or movement is so important to God that maintaining and promoting it justifies sinful ways of protecting their group. Hence you see the “end justifies the means” behaviors.
Many think C.J. Mahaney is narcissistic and possible sociopathic in the sense that he has no conscience. If Mahaney is narcissistic as he appears then it is quite hard (short of a miracle) for Mahaney to see how wrong his actions have been.
Drew wrote, “Telling yourself lies [I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom] doesn’t really heal.”
Hmmm, as far as I can tell, YOU are the only one here who has ever called SGM or any other group, “the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom.” Please, correct me if I’m wrong, but you are the only one who has taken things to such extremes. Which is normally what happens with a straw man argument. The person trying to persuade you creates a hyperbolic statement, tries to put it on the people they are trying to persuade, then claims their own judgement being superior because the hyperbolic statement is clearly hyperbolic. Or rather, they like to create an argument which never existed in the first place, then claim they have the proper perspective, therefore people should really be listening to their point of view, instead.
You, also, wrote, “So I share – perspective.”
Seems to me no one else here has ever made the outlandish claims which you insinuate are being made here, have been made here and continue to be made here. Same as you’ve done with others who have had the courage to speak out.
People who create straw man arguments, also, tend to not actually answer the question put to them, but rather pervert it, answering a part of the question, so as to manipulate people into thinking they have answered in full.
I’ll make it easy on you, Drew.
Are you now, or have you ever been, or has any relative of yours ever been in the SGM’s pastor’s college or any other seminary at all, or have you ever sat under any teaching of CJ Mahoney’s in a class room situation?
I’ve read many articles through the years re: the narcissistic personality disorder and the antisocial personality disorder (which includes sociopathy and psychopathy as one of the articles below explains). I know many of you probably know more than me about them, but here’s 2 quick links for anyone who’s reading and may not be as familiar with some of these terms or if you just want to read some concise summaries of them. They are by no means extensive descriptions of either. But they’re helpful I think.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder
Stunned,
Thank you.
“Or rather, they like to create an argument which never existed in the first place…”
Stunned: Question “Do you….?”
Answer: Nope. Have NEVER, EVER met or listened to anyone in SGM leadership current or past. [ Never heard a Mahaney message on tape, youtube, livestream etc.
I have, at my non SGM Church, sang Bob Kauflin choruses. I have no idea what he even looks like however.
To reiterate; Never met C.J. [ or the others], never heard a message of their’s and have never read any books of their’s. Have never attended an SGM church.
I have no family members or friends who are associated with SGM ministries.
Without the use of popular psychobabble to diagnose; I pretty much agree with Steve240. You start out with an honest desire to build a church or organization that glorifies the Lord and you end up protecting and defending the organization more than glorifying the Lord. It happens to the best of them.
I like Drew. He reminds me of the good people I know who don’t read blogs and all they know is that SGM didn’t call the cops. Big deal, nobody called the cops, you try and deal with it Matthew 18 style as Christians. I Corinthans 6 says it better to do that and not go before the secular judges. SGM is trying to be biblical. John Piper is great and he loves CJ. Detwiler seems psychologically disturbed. Etc.
If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them”. This is why my default setting on this subject is that the SGM problem was not about calling cops and never will be. Then I try to explain what the problem was, usually to no avail. I think if you’ve never known a sociopath up close and personal, it is hard to grasp. Maybe we here are all better off because we won’t be taken in one day by lying signs and wonders and so called great anointings. We’ve seen the false apostle/hireling syndrome and will trust our gut discernment next time around.
Drew – I will assume you are genuinely trying to help. Here is an example of something that maybe highlights the difficulty some of us have with our approach.
In the previous – ..Post? Conversation thread? – you wrote an example of a caveat I gave and a caveat Nickname gave: “I don’t have first hand knowledge,” and “It’s my understanding,” and then you said “You see the problem, don’t you?”
My reply was nope, I do not, to which you replied “Possibly you don’t.” But then you didn’t explain what the problem was. How does that provide perspective?
I only added my caveat because I wanted it to be clear was unable to answer any other questions about the situation. But my source was a primary source, so I had no reason to doubt the basic info. And there are many readers here – including Brent himself – who could and would correct me if they know otherwise.
CJ, Larry, and the whole SGM/SGC leadership had us all hamstrung with some childish notion of truth and what we should talk about. Their intentions may have been good in the beginning, but in the end, they used what should have been guidelines as rules to keep us all under control and prevent us from comparing notes. And once we started comparing notes, then we began to see things differently.
So I made an honest comment that I have no reason to believe is not true. And I made it with a caveat. This is how people get at the truth when others want the truth hidden – sometimes you have incomplete information, sometimes you have rumors, but none of these things is wrong or untruthful in and of themselves. Could the kind of statement I made be used in court? Probably not. But it could be used to gather information and eventually find someone whose statement could be used.
This is why I don’t see the problem with what I said. I have found caveated information and various types of information that cannot be classified strictly as “fact” to be extremely useful in eventually getting at something that is strictly a fact. And it’s been my experience that people who try to shut down such information are either naive or deliberately controlling.
Meanwhile, you offered nothing to help me see the problem or offer me perspective, just a statement that could be interpreted as smug or snarky.
A question I have had for some years; What part did individual Care Group leaders have in the shepperding? If human behavior holds true; I would suspect some Care Group leaders of more rigidity than even the “Apostles,” other Care Group leaders being more flexible than the “Apostles.”
_______
The political scenario that I can most relate it to was former IRS director Lois Lerner who appeared to target “Tea Party” organizations making it difficult for them to collect money from supporters.
Did Mr. Obama ever call up Ms. Lerner and ask her to be hard on the Tea Party? Heavens no; quite possibly he never even knew what was going on. But she undoubtedly thought he would appreciate her work on his behalf. So she, on his behalf AS SHE IMAGINED IT, went further then what she was asked to do.
How much of that was true of the Care Group leaders? How many ended up pushing mindsets AS THEY IMAGINED IT that did not actually originate with leadership?
I agree that some Care Group leaders were definitely more rigid than others, and definitely less sophisticated about their rigid application than the leaders were; and there was a time when I would have thought some of them were even more rigid than the top leaders. But then I had my own personal run-ins with the very top leaders, and I no longer think that. They were rigid and hard core, too; and though I don’t really know why they didn’t initially appear that way, my guess is they were more skilled in how they presented themselves – and maybe that was just their natural way (which is why we were drawn to them in the first place).
There were a couple of upper level leaders (in my time) who seemed to be actually less rigid, but they were eventually ousted or left. Which is not to say all the ones who left fit that description – but all the ones who fit that description are now gone.
And that was a good question.
Drew,
I find it interesting that you – as someone who acknowledges having no firsthand experience with Sovereign Grace Churches apart from singing Sovereign Grace worship music at your church – have previously attempted to discredit other commenters here for their lack of firsthand experience/knowledge of SGM’s leaders. Could you explain this intellectual inconsistency?
Maybe I’m missing something…but if I’m understanding you correctly, you believe your perspective, coming from a place of zero personal experience, would be more insightful than the perspective of people who were actually in Sovereign Grace churches and knew a lot of these leaders? Like, I sense that you are voicing skepticism about SGM’s issues and defending SGM’s leaders…and this is actually coming from a place of never having been part of a Sovereign Grace church? Are we to believe you have no dog in the fight, so to speak, but think you can offer a better perspective than someone who was there?
Drew said,
Sorry, but that “don’t know there hearts” line is classic SGM-ese for excusing wrong behavior.
That young Rachael is one serious force to be reckoned with.
This statement really stuck out to me:
Wow.
“Sorry, but that “don’t know there hearts” line is classic SGM-ese for excusing wrong behavior.”
Yeah, it’s also very scriptural.
5 Years said, “If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them””
I’m not sure if you’re thinking about me in this (sorry if you’re not and please, completely ignore what I am about to say if that’s the case), but I didn’t finally speak up because there is a dissenting voice here. I’m a big girl and dissenting voices don’t upset me in the least. I spoke up because I have been smelling something fishy here with the illogic being put forward, the conflicting statements, what appears to be a bit of deception (I’m not saying someone has to tell us personal stuff or the color of their underwear, but at my ripe old age, I’m finally coming to accept when I smell deception, even a little bit, it usually means something more is going on than it appears), straw man arguments, and like I said, manipulation and propaganda. People can disagree with me all day long (and often do ;) ) and it’s no big deal. But after quite a while of feeling like the other stuff has been happening, I finally had to speak up.
Drew, we do know their hearts when they tell us. And they have told us, over and over. The talk of protecting the church and protecting an elder was articulated over and over since 2011. Pastors and church boards who chose to question or criticize SGM were shunned for not protecting the church or protecting an elder. The current SGM leader sat at my dining room table and intentionally gave me only part of a story to mislead me and try to quiet my criticism of Mahaney. He repeated the same act with my brother and the church board in CLE. We tried to follow the process in Matthew, first going to him, then going with witnesses, even following their umbilical suggestion of a mediator. The mediator had first hand knowledge of the story the leader used to mislead us and the mediator (a regional SGM leader, at the time) was quite clear that he had no idea how the leader could have had taken that from the situation. Was that leader disciplined for misleading us? Nope, he was promoted.
That is just one snipit. A really small and somewhat inconsequential snout, in the scheme of all that is wrong with SHM. If you would bother to go read the stories in this blog…go back to 2011 and read, you would see that it is quite reasonable to question whether the SGM leaders had evil intent.
Jenn, I wasn’t there. On the other hand I have followed denominational/church politics for a long time. After awhile, they all sound very similar.
__________
I’ve followed the SGM kerfluffle for at least [ 2011 ] that long.
I am sorry Jenn, that you were deeply wounded. I wish I could make it right.
Drew,
All are free to share their opinions. If you are legit, then please don’t feel silenced. Many here are still hurting and coping. Personally I don’t buy your story. Why would you post on this forum for the first time ever; especially during the wake of SGM making national headline? Sorry Drew but I don’t buy it at all.
If readers are watching Drew’s responses, he is asking specific questions where responses could potentially be used to discredit this forum and/or any charges brought against SGM and its past and present ordained and non-ordained members.
I can’t help but to suspect SGM could be planting this type of questioning. Take it or leave it folks but in my opinion I think the sinking SGM ship has accelerated its pathway to destruction. It is only my opinion that merely from a legal play it would be a great strategy for SGM to use this forum as a means to discredit and cast doubt if it fears a forthcoming investigation.
Drew I hope my suspicions about you are inaccurate. But I’m sorry, if it smells like a duck then….
Run4hills, I think you are mixing your metaphors, but it brings some humor, and you still make your point :)
I’m not ready to give Drew that much significance yet. I am curious, though, to know what about this site draws someone for 7 years who is not SGM. To me, this site seems kind of personal. Either you were part of the SGM experience, or you relate to one or any of the various abuses that occur in similar types of religious power structures. The focus of this site is very narrow and a bit repetitive, so I wouldn’t expect someone without an emotional connection to last long. Why do you follow SGM, Drew? It’s not a big deal, I’m just curious.
Y’know…
I tend to agree that there’s something disingenuous about Drew’s comments. Drew, I’d really like for you to answer my question from before:
I personally believe Drew is telling the truth about his non-SGM past. Some of the most vehement SGM defenders are those who came to admire the movement and CJ Mahaney from the outside. For whatever reason, they tend to have a really tough time coming to grips with the movement’s secret gritty past.
This is just my opinion, for as Drew is so happy to point out, I don’t know people’s hearts…but I tend to think there’s a level of pride involved in wanting to believe in one’s church celebrity crushes. We all like to believe we have good discernment…and that our church and our church leaders have good discernment. Particularly if our church has taken the position of supporting CJ Mahaney after his star was tarnished, it feels like there’s more at stake. Our leaders have essentially doubled down on the Mahaney love. They stuck with him even AFTER the dark side was readily available for discovery. Who wants to think their leaders have been snowed?
stunned- wasn’t thinking of you at all.
Kris- I think you nailed it. “Our leaders have essentially doubled down on the Mahaney love. They stuck with him even AFTER the dark side was readily available for discovery. Who wants to think their leaders have been snowed?”
As I have said before, I’ve heard Duncan speak, Carson speak, a lot of Piper, Keller, etc. I so looked up to the Gospel Coalition guys. Dealing with the facts about CJ and SGM was easy. Dealing with the others, especially Piper, took a couple years at least. It can be very painful to realize that men you admired chose deception.
Jenn- first time I heard that. Wow, So sorry.
5 Years, just goes to show you that my ability to read minds is as poor as it has been throughout human history. ;)
HI KRIS
As I’ve noted; don’t know Mahaney, not a Mahaney fan boy. My particular church never references SGM or Mahaney, I don’t actually know any Mahaney supporters. All I know about Mahaney comes from this blog, Jim’s blog – now closed, and Wartburg. I’ve read the stories, I’ve read the reports; read Wikipedia and have followed commenters.
SOMETIMES, but not always, it’s people standing OUTSIDE the trees than can see the forest from a different perspective.
An example from the recent past was the Duke Lacrosse scandal. The narrative; racists, bigoted, obnoxious jocks using their white privilege to rape poor black [ or white ] women. i.e. the team was composed of terrible men.
It was people not involved, like Prof K.C. Johnson, who began to look at the situation from OUTSIDE who saw flaws of the narrative. Ultimately it was outsiders’ more independent perspective that changed the then, favored storyline. The Duke Lacrosse team was actually vindicated per the charges – not vindicated of acting, at times, like obnoxious frat boy types. After all, they hired the strippers to begin with.
Finally, I was listening to Family Radio this morning; the reading is about Samson.
Here’s my question, How the heck did badboy-headcase Samson make into the Hebrews hall of fame?
{ Really God, what were you thinking? ] But there he is; warts and all.
And here I am, warts and all.
5 Years said, “If we can’t allow and try to address dissenting voices, we end up like “them””
I think what 5 Years said is very true in so many ways.
One of the reasons that SGM/SGC became so corrupt and fell IMO so far from being the Christian group they claim to be is they became quite insular in their culture. Part of what caused them to become insular was their not allowing dissenting voices. With that being the case SGM Leaders were around leaders “below” them and regular members always telling these leaders what these leaders wanted to hear vs. things these leaders needed to hear.
Many will say that SGM/CLC leaders never did well with disagreement.
A few psychological concepts that everyone should become familiar with include both “group think” and “confirmation bias.” When you don’t allow dissenting voices you open yourself and the group to one or both of these things happening.
Especially for an individual confirmation bias is good to be aware of where you tend hear and interpret information to confirm what you already believe. With this type of bias it is hard to change your mind even if the facts show otherwise. I am sure this is one factor with so many refusing to want to believe Mahaney is quite the hypocrite he has shown himself to be.
Chicken or egg?
Did they become insular because they didn’t hear dissenting voices or did they want to be insular because they didn’t want to hear dissenting voices?
In other words, sometimes people want power and KNOW that the best way to have it is to go into a little space where they can build walls which will block out the sound of dissenting voices. Egg? Chicken?
We Need an Independent Investigation of Sovereign Grace Ministries
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/march-web-only/sovereign-grace-need-investigation-sgm-mahaney-denhollander.html
SAMPSON – is he not the quintessential Alpha male.
If you look at the definition of Narcisstic Personality Disorder, doesn’t Samson come to mind?
We know he had long tresses; possibly 6-pack abs, buffed biceps and seemed to have a less than egalitarian view of women.
He didn’t even seem all that spiritual; an ongoing nightmare for his folks.
Yet he is Noted in Hebrews 11 – with the other prophets and leaders.
Good question about not wanting to hear dissenting voices. Sadly there are advantages of not wanting to hear or not allowing dissenting opinions. When you do this you get conformance and expediency but there are costs as we have seen including going down the wrong path. The more someone thinks they know it all I am sure leads them to wanting to have it without allowing for discussion and dissenting views.
Also when you have an atmosphere where people can’t share it can lead to what one author calls “denial of peril” where a company or group seeks to deny that things are getting worse and some type of change needs to happen. This can lead to dire consequences.
Not sure what you mean by being in “the Hebrew Hall of Fame.” Do you mean in the bible?
My take on him being there is his actions were a warning to others and perhaps a lesson that even with Samson’s sin he was able to do some good near his death.
Excellent article by the editor in chief of Christianity Today. I honestly can’t wait to hear how SGM will worm their way out of another call to action.
So, Drew…
I’m curious. You say you’re this total outsider with no personal interest in Sovereign Grace churches and nothing at all invested in any of SGM’s stuff, beyond Sovereign Grace worship music. You keep implying you’re this very unbiased bystander.
Yet as far as I’ve been able to tell, NONE of your contributions here have been neutral. Everything you’ve said has either contained elements of defending SGM/its leaders or else seems bent on criticizing or dismissing SGM’s critics. You’ve frequently framed up our conversations about SGM’s issues in wildly extreme terms – for instance, insinuating that people here view SGM’s leaders as 100% bad with nothing but evil intentions (when virtually no one views leadership in such a non-nuanced way).
I guess my point is, you should quit pretending to be neutral. Your comments ALL have had a clear agenda. Whether this agenda is coming from a place of personal circumstantial investment or not, it’s still pretty obvious. You’re NOT some random passerby simply trying to figure out what you think of Sovereign Grace churches/ministries/leaders. You already have strong opinions in SGM’s favor. Likewise, you have strongly negative opinions about the critics.
Stop pretending you’re merely a fair and impartial observer. You’re not.
And understand, I’ve been interacting with SGM defenders for a long time (more than a decade). I know there’s a first time for everything, but I have never before encountered a defender who persists engaging in such a close-minded fashion but truly has nothing personal invested in SGM…whether that’s because they go to a Sovereign Grace church, are close to someone who does, are closely aligned with people aligned with SG’s leaders, or part of SG leadership’s legal defense team.
When I read Drew’s comments, I have found myself going in circles…..
I have thought “oh, sadly, he has been terribly wounded” in response to Drew’s statement:
“…I’ve been victimized by the most evil church/leadership in the history of Christendom…”
Then his references to SGM care group leaders….
Then references to Lois Lerner and the IRS…
Then Sampson in the hall of fame???….
And this response to Jenn G, which I personally heard exactly the SAME line from an SGM pastor:
“I am sorry, Jenn, that you were deeply wounded. I wish I could make it right.”
Drew, whatever your “perspective” here or reasons why you are here — bottom line,
in my perspective you DO hijack and deter the focus of the current Denhollander discussion.
Perhaps, you would be “better served” (!!) to start your own blog, enabling you to go in every direction you deem fit.
P.S.
The Christianity Today article is excellent. SGM is being called upon,by CT, to submit to an
unbiased investigation. This a very public request. The spotlight is increasing upon SGM.
Again, I have had nothing to do with SGM in any way, shape or form. My own battles have been different.
LancasterCaster, thank you for the Christianity Today link.
“…an open wound has been festering in the evangelical community. It’s time for healing to begin.” Amen, Lord Jesus.
As many here have said, it is unlikely that SGM would ever willingly submit to an investigation, but remember…that would ONLY be because God has a better plan. We are watching it unfold, no doubt.
Actually, by the time he sat and lied to me, I was over being wounded by SGM. Instead, my previous experience protected me from charm offensive and gave me clarity and discernment.
I do however believe in accountability and godly justice, both of which are completely absent within SGM.
Jenn Grover, I love this: “….Instead, my previous experience protected me from charm offensive and gave me clarity and discernment.” Yes!!
Drew,
Would you acknowledge that you do have a particular opinion of Sovereign Grace and its leaders? And that your opinion is already formed? And that your responses to the others here are based on this already-formed opinion?
That CT article is outstanding! Thank you for the link. Did you notice it is written by the editor in chief? Glory to God.
The quote about how SGM churches are independent and so a church would have to call for an investigation, SGM can’t do it (or SGC as they are now)…is that true? Have they dispensed with the authority of the SGC oversight over local churches? Or is that spin?
The reason I ask is that after the lawsuit, there was an SGM statement to the tune that they didn’t have authority over local churches. What a lie. It was obvious when we attended that SGM ruled with an iron fist over local churches. IIRC Detwiler went and filed a written affadavit that they were lying and the A team or regional leaders or board or whatever did indeed have authority over local churches. Have they completely dropped that model? Did the new polity eliminate the central control? Just curious.
Anyway, way to go Rachel. Does anybody else think it is hilarious that God decided to use a woman?! They would not listen to men and now they have to deal with the lowliest of all creatures, a female. She didn’t even go through her husband, she actually talked herself. How humiliating for them. Plus she is Reformed so you can’t toss her for bad doctrine. It’s like the perfect moment. Hey Kris and Guy, and Jim P, thanks for all that you did in the beginning and over the years. Thanks to you posters for keeping it alive. And I will say thanks to Brent for his part too :)