How Sovereign Grace Ministries views its leaders’ authority is really at the heart of so many issues. I thought it would be interesting to take a closer look at what, exactly, they teach about obeying and submitting to pastors. What follows is the first part of a transcript of a sermon preached by C.J. Mahaney to the Knoxville church this past August. I would have preferred to post the transcript in its entirety, but it is so lengthy that I think breaking it down into parts will make for easier reading. Also, I realize that C.J.’s introductory remarks don’t have anything to do with the topic at hand, but out of concerns for accuracy and fairness, I didn’t want to edit his sermon in any way. If you’re interested in listening to the audio recording, you can download it here (click on “Media & Links,” then click on “Sermons,” then look for the message entitled, The Happiest Place On Earth). As has been the case in previous similar posts, my thoughts will be in blue.
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Begin transcript of The Happiest Place On Earth:
[Announcer's voice] The following message was recorded at a Sunday Celebration service at Cornerstone Church of Knoxville. CJ leads Sovereign Grace Ministries, headquartered in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
[C.J. Mahaney speaking] Over the past five years, this has been a common occurrence, and it brings me great joy, as I have the privilege to travel, speak in conference and church contexts, this is normally what I hear after I preach: “Please thank your wife and daughters for their writing, for their example.” That is normally what I hear after I preach. Individuals in the midst of that then often feel awkward, as if I might be misinterpreting that, uh. And I communicate to them, “Look, there’s – there’s nothing you could say to me that would be more meaningful than to draw attention to the girls and to communicate your gratefulness for the girls,” and usually then I just say, “Please do that yourself personally. I’ll transfer what you’ve said, but it would be more effective coming from you.” So, uh, so – that’s the first thing – I hear that the majority of the time. [Kris says: I realize that this audio recording does not provide us with any context for these opening remarks. Because of what he says a few paragraphs later, I'm guessing that CJ is starting out this way because he and his family had just been honored in a pastoral introduction, before CJ took the stage. Perhaps Cornerstone's pastor had just expressed gratitude for CJ's daughters and their writings.
But even if CJ were responding to the most flowery of introductory speeches, it strikes me as sort of...unusual...for someone to respond to complimentary remarks with, "Well, that's just my typical experience. Everywhere I go, people talk up my family so highly."]
Second thing over the last five years I hear, uh, often now is, after I preach, someone says, “Last year you preached a sermon on…” And I become aware that my sermons seem to have lost their immediate effect on people. [Crowd laughs uproariously.] But what’s changed is that there is, there is, there is this delayed effect, so I’m benefitting now from sermons I’ve preached in previous years, because individuals are bringing to my attention their gratefulness for sermons previously preached. So those are the two things that are going on. Uh, as they inform me about their gratefulness for a sermon I previously preached, there is the temptation to want to say to them, “How about the one I JUST preached?” [Loud laughter from the crowd] You might not have been paying full attention, but I just did it again!” But then I comfort myself at night that a year from now, I’ll be hearing from them. [Laughter] They really benefitted from this.
Thank you, Bill, for honoring Carolyn and the girls the way you did, and thank you as a church for the way you just received us. I mean, uh, from the time we get out of our car, I turned to Carolyn as we were walking toward the building, and I said, “Is – is there a happier place?” What a happy place! And everyone I’m interacting with is encouraging me, thanking me for last week’s sermon, uh, thanking me for being here today. I’m so grateful for that. It extends to the children. It seems to be a wonderful practice here of parents encouraging their children to – to – to – draw while someone is preaching, to draw. Because I get these notes and pictures every year, and I – they are just wonderful, they, they move me. Uh, they move me to tears, so, thank you so very much, it’s a commendable strategy. [Chuckles and then laughs heartily as crowd joins him] “Get to drawing, kids. Mr. Mahaney speaks a LONG time. So – [crowd laughs] – get a little artwork done.” OK.
Somewhere, on, um, I don’t know the roads well, is it 40 which goes into 81 – I’m not sure – uh, there’s a small caravan of cars headed toward home, uh, of very sad people. Ah, because they love being here. So, Owen, one of my grandsons – how old’s Owen, dear? – five? He’s five years old, he looks at me this morning as we are parting, and just says, “Pop-Pop, I don’t – I don’t wanna leave Tennessee.” [slight pause as CJ’s voice starts to tremble] “And Owen, neither does Pop-Pop.” [sighs emotionally with small catch in his breath, almost like a sob]
I’ll have to get back to you on that one. Uh, they – they mark – they really do – it’s really a – a – here’s another one I thought of. Arn was kind enough to – to loan us a boat for a period of time. You have to understand, got no boating background, grateful to have a son-in-law who knows how to drive one, so we’re doing all things on the water – how old’s Liam? Six. [Crowd laughs] Ah, I’m way too old to keep up with all this stuff. Uh. Know ‘em, love ‘em, don’t have the specifics on ages or dates. [Crowd laughs hugely.] Trusts Carolyn to keep track of all that. Uh.
So when Arn came to get the boat, Liam is standing next to his dad, Brian, who is married to our middle daughter, Kristen, and as the boat’s going away, Liam says, “Dad – is – vacation’s over.” He associates vacation with the boat, and once the boat’s gone, vacation’s over. [Crowd laughs.] So his dad informed him, “No, Liam, it’s not over.” And with a wonderful smile on his face, he went, “Bonus days!” [Crowd laughs uproariously.] So that became our theme throughout the end of our – [CJ laughs heartily] “Bonus days, Liam!”
So, you just have to understand, my grandchildren, their calendar is built on this vacation. It really is. They will start falling asleep now within a period of weeks asking, “How long before we come back?” So that’s their point of reference, their point of reference is this trip every year. That’s their point of reference. You make that possible by your kindness, and I’m grateful beyond words [voice cracks emotionally]…and…if we don’t get going, I won’t be able to speak words. [Kris says: Maybe it's just my lack of familiarity with CJ's personality and preaching style that makes this sound jarringly theatrical to me, but...who gets weepy while talking about what sounds like a fun family vacation?
And...
Is the Mahaney family really so hard up financially that such a vacation wouldn't be possible without the generosity of the Knoxville church members? I mean, CJ tells his audience, "You make that possible by your kindness." So what's he saying? That he and his adult kids couldn't afford this kind of trip on their own? Really?]
So please turn quickly to – very quickly – to Hebrews chapter 13. I trust you feel my gratefulness. Hebrews chapter 13. Um, this morning, our attention is going to be confined to a single significant verse. Hebrews chapter 13, verse 17, I have the privilege to read from God’s Word this morning, let us all give our full attention to God’s Word this morning, in anticipation that God will reveal Himself and His grace as demonstrated and displayed through the sacrifice of His son, through this single passage. This morning.
Hebrews chapter 13 verse 17. Obey YOUR leaders and submit to THEM. For they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will have to give…an account. Let them do THIS with JOY and not with groaning. For that would be of NO ADVANTAGE to YOU.
Let’s pray.
Oh Father, you know the special place this church has in my heart and therefore you are quite familiar with what I feel at this moment, my desire to serve them and yet my awareness of my inadequacies in and of myself for this task, this sacred task. So, Lord, I now make public what I have prayed in private. Have mercy on me this morning, so that I might serve all who are assembled, and have mercy on all of us present this day as we give our attention to this passage. You have inspired these words. You have preserved these words. You have inspired them and preserved them with this day in mind, with this church, this day in mind. How kind of you. Present in this passage is a wealth of grace and wisdom. So now as we consider this passage, as I have the privilege to proclaim this passage, reveal the wealth of the grace and wisdom present in this passage and transfer the wealth of grace and wisdom in this passage to our souls so that the content of this passage makes a difference, so that there’s a discernible effect we experience and observe from this passage, so that there is an enduring effect of this passage on the hearts and minds of all who are present in this church and present in this assembly this morning. So, Lord, I proceed with anticipation, I proceed with confidence, not – certainly – not in myself, but with confidence in you because you are eager to bless your people and you are present to bless your people in and through the preaching of your Word for you have promised to bless your people in and through the preaching of your Word, so I thank you for doing this in advance all because of your Son and His sacrifice on the cross for our sins. I thank you. In Jesus’ name, amen.
It is, it is, uh, highly doubtful that many present have ever heard of John Fawcett. Ah, I was introduced to this man through the writing of Jim Elliff. John Fawcett was born in 1740. He was converted through the preaching of George Whitfield. And at age 26 he was an ordained Baptist minister. He became the pastor of a church in an obscure, impoverished village in Wainsgate, located in northern England. In 1777 he opened a school for young preachers. He wrote a number of books on practical Christianity, and in 1811, Brown University in the United States awarded him a doctorate in light of his accomplishments. Mr. Elliff writes the following about John Fawcett:
On the day he was scheduled to leave Wainsgate, after some years of pastoring there, the saddened parishioners, the saddened members of this church gathered around the wagons. I want you just to pause for a moment, try to picture this scene with me. You have an older, godly pastor and his wife. You have horse-drawn wagons that are filled. You have a saddened congregation gather around them. In that moment, what would you expect John Fawcett to say to his church? He has pastored them for many years. He cares for them deeply and profoundly. He has demonstrated that by his service to them over a period of many years. What do you expect him to say to them in that moment just prior to departing? What do you expect his wife to say to this assembled saddened church in that moment? What would they say? What did they say? Well at the end of this sermon, I’m gonna tell you what they said.
And I pray that by the time we arrive at that moment, the relevance of this passage in relation to what they said will be quite evident to you and deeply affect you and make a difference in how you serve in the context of this church.
Hebrews chapter 13 is filled with very important and very specific exhortations, applications if you will. The writer of this letter is aware that apart from very specific and corporate application, the previous powerful and profound chapters of this inspired letter will not have their intended effect upon the original recipients. [Kris says: Really? Is CJ really saying that the whole book of Hebrews hinges on whether or not church members obey and submit to their leaders?
So all that stuff about how Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, the High Priest to end all earthly high priests...all that stuff about how we have now been brought near and can come boldly before the throne...all the stuff about the great heroes of the faith...all of that "will not have their intended effect" without talking about obeying your pastors? This just seems like a HUGE leap of logic to me, a HUGE (and strange) assumption.
Also, just because something is mentioned in the concluding chapter of a book of the Bible, that does NOT make that thing the central point of said book. Otherwise, we could say that II Timothy was all about Paul's cloak and parchments, as those things are part of Paul's final words in the last chapter. Clearly, this would be a faulty approach to biblical scholarship.]
And it is also quite obvious that the writer understands the vital role of leadership in the plan and the purpose of God in – because – in this brief concluding chapter, we have – count ‘em for yourself – not one, not two – we have three references to leaders. We have a reference to leaders in verse seven. “Remember your leaders.” Those who spoke to you the Word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. We have a second reference to leaders in verse 17, which we read – which we read moments ago, and then we have a third reference to leaders in verse 24, “Greet all your leaders and all the saints.” The writer understands the vital role of leaders, but the writer also understands the critical relationship between the congregation and leaders. And in verse 17, we encounter both, we encounter both the vital role of leaders and the critical relationship of the congregation to leaders. We encounter them both in verse 17.
But. The undeniable emphasis in verse 17 is not on the pastoral team, the undeniable emphasis and accent in verse 17 is on the responsibility of the congregation TO the pastoral team, and here’s why. Here’s why.
The effectiveness of pastoral ministry is dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry. THE effectiveness of pastoral ministry is indeed dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry. [Kris says: Really? Is it really true that pastors can only respond passively to the attitudes and obedience levels of their congregants? That pastors have no other influence? That an effective ministry can only happen if everyone hops to and is cheerfully behaving?
Can C.J. back up this assertion by citing ANYTHING in the Bible?
I don't think so. In fact, I think that much throughout the New Testament would seem to indicate the exact opposite. Otherwise, from many of the corrective things that Paul sees fit to write churches like the one at Corinth, or at Galatia, we would have to conclude that Paul himself was, at least at the time those corrections were penned, not effective in pastoral ministry.
So this assertion simply cannot be true.
Plus, it even contradicts much of what SGM teaches in other departments. Take parenting, for example. Would SGM pastors ever DREAM of telling anyone that their parenting is only as effective as their children's responses to their parenting?
Or how about the counsel that SGM pastors give to couples who are unhappy in their marriages? That's actually an even better parallel. Let's take the example of a husband who has complaints about his wife's lack of submission. Does the SGM pastor sit back and nod in sympathetic agreement with the husband and say to him, "Yes, that is correct. You simply will not be an effective husband and father until your wife submits to you in a manner that you find satisfactory."
We know that SGM in fact teaches the exact opposite of this sort of thing. We know that if someone presents a problem or struggle to an SGM pastor, the pastor will be quite willing to assign at least some of the blame for the problem on the person's own sinful behaviors and attitudes.
So why would pastors themselves be exempt from responsibility, if they find themselves feeling like their ministries are "ineffective"?
SGM's own teachings in other areas would totally negate the assumption that a ministry's success hinges on the behavior of members.]
So, the accent of this message is gonna reflect the accent of this passage, and I pray serve you, and the accent of this message is going to be on the responsibility of this assembled congregation TO the pastoral team OF this congregation. If you’re not a part of this congregation, this would have application to you regardless of which congregation you participate in.
But I also must make – must make – a few qualifying remarks so there is no misunderstanding as I proceed. Please understand, th – this message was my idea. It was my idea, my initiative. Uh, I mean, well – a number of things. First of all, I invited myself to speak. [Crowd laughs loudly.] Here’s how you should think of me this morning. I – I’m a – I’m a former senior pastor…looking for work. OK? So that – [crowd laughs] – so I invited myself to speak, and then not only did I invite myself to speak, then I chose this message. So I’m not asking the pastoral team for permission to teach this message, although I’m submitted to that, it might not appear to you that I am after what I just said, but I chose this message. This is not a passage or message that they would be inclined to speak. Understandably so. If they spoke this passage, if they spoke this message, it could appear to be self-serving. Therefore what I love to do when I have this privilege to travel is to take passages that pastors might feel awkward to address to their congregations and address them myself as a means, hopefully, of serving them.
[Kris says: C.J. has presented this message to different congregations - even non-SGM congregations - all around the country. A quick internet search yielded two other sound files of The Happiest Place On Earth, one which was done at John MacArthur's church during some college conference, and another that had been given at Mark Dever's church. C.J. does seem to give this same disclaimer every time he preaches this sermon. It's always "his idea," and NEVER something he was asked to say.
But...it's still rather...coincidental that C.J. chose THIS message to give at Cornerstone Church of Knoxville. Cornerstone is currently in the midst of putting a rule in place that requires all members – longtime, short-term, new, doesn’t matter – to sign a new document, a membership covenant, and some folks there have significant questions and concerns about the version that they are being asked to sign. It is a rather negative document, focusing solely on matters of church discipline, with a clause all about how a member who does come under discipline cannot then rescind his membership but must endure the discipline process. There's even a provision where members must acknowledge that they are aware that the Knoxville church may elect to track down the pastors at whatever church they attempt to move on to after leaving SGM, and tell their new pastors all about why they're under church discipline at Knoxville.
So for obvious reasons, there are some folks at Knoxville who are asking questions about this membership covenant. Things there are NOT all "happy-happy-joy-joy."
I guess I just find it difficult to believe that I (as a mere blog moderator) would be aware of Knoxville's membership covenant fracas, while C.J., SGM's top banana, would NOT know about it?]
Now, further explanation. Or clarification. I – I – didn’t choose this passage or message because you’re in need of correction. Didn’t do that. Wasn’t praying yesterday, this past week, thinking, “OK, what are the obvious, blatant deficiencies of Cornerstone Church that I could somehow heroically serve while I’m here. What – what – what – what – what – can I throw my body in front of to capture their attention and hopefully serve them?” No, no. This is not a corrective – actually, this message gives me the opportunity to commend you. I’m not – if there was a corrective, I would announce – no actually, if there was a corrective, your pastor, your senior pastor, would be addressing you on this. He wouldn’t be asking me to come in, and I wouldn’t come in to correct you. Uh. That wouldn’t be my role. So, the passage actually gives me an opportunity to commend you, because you – you are, you are a demonstration of this particular passage. So, it’s good news.
Now. There’s also concerning news for all of us, because indwelling sin remains, indwelling sin is active, therefore, think of this message not so much as corrective, although it might have application to some, given the size of this congregation, but do think of it as preventative, because indwelling sin dwells in us all and is active in us and through us all on a daily basis.
And finally, I would just want you to view this passage as a wonderful gift from God for it is a gift from God. And I think that will become evident to you as we just spend a few moments pondering this particular passage. BECAUSE, the effectiveness of pastoral ministry is dependent upon a proper response TO pastoral ministry.
So, three points I want to draw to your attention. Point number one, the role of leaders. The role of leaders. Because the role of leaders is revealed in and through this passage. It’s not the primary emphasis of this passage, but the content is certainly present in this passage.
Number one, the role of leaders. It is possible that the original recipient of this letter had experienced the recent death of Godly leaders. We read in verse 7, “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the Word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith,” followed by verse 8, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” So, if they had experienced the recent death of certain leaders, what a comfort verse 8 would be to them in the midst of their grief. Be an immediate comfort, be an immeasurable comfort.
This – this – if this has indeed taken place, if there had been the loss of leaders through death, this does not render leaders optional or non-essential, and therefore the writer addresses the vital role of leaders, and remaining leaders in verse 17. And the writer provides, really, a rich description of the role and functions of pastors, and a rich, a rich description of the role and function of YOUR pastors, “They,” he writes in verse 17, “are keeping watch over your souls.” They are keeping watch over your souls. Good and godly pastors – and your pastors are good and godly pastors. Good and godly pastors effectively watch over the souls allotted to their charge. This is what your pastors do, and your pastors do this well.
Actually, this word “watch” forms, in effect a primary responsibility for pastors, a primary practice of pastors, we read in first Timothy chapter 4 that pastors are called to watch their life and doctrine. In Acts chapter 20 we encounter this verse, “We are to keep watch over ourselves.” Paul addressing the elders of the church in Ephesus. So, pastors are called to watch their life and doctrine, they are to watch over each other, so pastors don’t just they – they don’t just work together, they watch over each other in the context of working together.
[Kris says: Something that is quite fascinating - something that might be instructive for current SGMers, actually - is to listen to the very subtle ways that C.J. alters this teaching when he presents The Happiest Place On Earth to non-SGM congregations.
For instance, at Mark Dever's church, C.J. commends them for how they have a "plurality of elders," and he is very careful to keep inserting the word "elders" whenever he mentions pastors. He does the same thing when he gives this message to John MacArthur's college conference. He talks a lot about elders and pastors. And (I think it might have been in the Capitol Hill Baptist sound file), he talks about how important it is for there to be elders to hold pastors accountable.
Yes, it's the same idea - sort of - as the kind of "watching" that he is claiming takes place among Knoxville's pastoral team. But practical reality would dictate that accountability for pastors is going to be VERY DIFFERENT if pastors have to answer to elders (in the way that your average church member today would define "elder"), men who have been elected in some fashion by the people in their own congregation, rather than the type of accountability that SGM pastors have. Accountability among SGM pastors only flows upward, to the pastors and overseers who are above them in the leadership food chain. As far as I know, there isn't a Sovereign Grace church out there that has an elected board of elders to whom their pastors must answer in any sort of official manner.
So yes, while many SGM documents will refer to how they "govern by rule of a plurality of elders," what they neglect to mention is that in just about every case (except when a church is too new to be able to fund an entire team of pastors), the "plurality of elders" equals a group of paid staff pastors and (sometimes) these pastors' hand-picked minions. Who all - let's be brutally honest here - have definite conflicts of interest (most are concerned about keeping their jobs, at least) when it comes to offering up "correction" or "accountability."
I mean, who is actually ever going to "watch over" the guy in authority over himself? Who would even be able to do such a thing, unless that guy had given him express permission to do so...
And let's say, hypothetically, that some junior associate pastor found, to his dismay, that the senior pastor was doing something wrong. Let's say that the senior pastor had even been good enough to establish an environment where the junior associate could feel free to confront the senior pastor. The bottom line reality is, though, that unless the senior pastor chooses voluntarily to embrace the correction, any confrontation that might take place will simply have no teeth. If there's no risk of job loss, there's no real guarantee that someone who has already fallen into sin would be compelled to submit to correction.
So, sure - theoretically, there may be an environment where these guys can "watch over" each other and hold each other accountable. But given that human nature is what it is - especially considering SGM's excruciatingly dim view of human nature - it's really strange that the end result of such accountability is still dependent upon these guys' own individual willingness to consent to accepting correction.
Honestly, how is this any different than permitting children to give themselves their own report cards? Or grade each other's work as a group?
How much credibility would colleges give a high school student's transcripts if they knew that the high school student bore sole responsibility for grading himself? Or that he was graded by his peers?
Or even that he was only graded by teachers who had never had any real firsthand experience with his actual schoolwork?
This is the reality of SGM's "accountability," as it is currently set up.
So I found it intriguing to hear C.J. speak in a way (in a non-SGM setting) which would seem to indicate that he thinks boards of elders are a good idea when in fact none of the churches he himself "watches over" have fail-safes for accountability to the common people, the very ones who have the firsthand experience with what these pastors do.]
And finally, in this passage, they are call, led to watch over your soul, so they are keeping watch over your soul. That’s – That’s not an exhaustive description of the role and responsibility of a pastor, but it is a most important aspect of pastoral ministry. They are called – your pastors are called, by God – they are given to you as a gift to watch over your soul.
Now, at first glance, that might not be appealing to you because none of us like to be watched. Who likes to be watched. I don’t want you to misunderstand this passage. There’s – there’s a difference between being stared and watched. There’s a difference between being stared at and watched over. Often when we think of being watched over we’re thinking of being stared at, don’t like to be stared at, who likes being stared at. Here’s a common experience for me, particularly when I travel, this happens to me regularly, this has happened to me for many years, this happens to me normally in airports, I am very aware – I’m reading, and then become aware in the midst of reading, somebody’s staring at me. I’m waiting for a flight, I’m not, to my knowledge, doing anything to draw attention to myself, and I become aware of somebody staring at me. Or somebody approaches me, and they approach me asking me if I’m aware that I look like John Luke Piccard – is that his name? – [crowd laughs] yeah, right, I am asked that with regularity, I – I’m also asked if I *am* this guy, and there was one guy I couldn’t convince that I WASN’T this guy. [crowd laughs]
Nobody wants to be stared at. There’s – there’s – having your soul watched over by godly pastors who love you, and being stared at are two completely distinct experiences. They – they – bear no resemblance. Listen, your soul needs the caring and discerning eyes of a godly pastor. [Lowers voice to dramatic whisper] God has designed it so.
[Kris says: I think that C.J. is arguing against a straw man here. Are the people in his audience really so dumb that they'd actually confuse the meaning of "watching over" with "being stared at"? I do not think so!
It seems to me that C.J. is not dealing with the REAL issue that might be setting off alarm bells for some of his listeners. As they consider the idea of being "watched over," what people might object to is NOT "being stared at," but rather, being watched critically.
People aren't going to worry that their pastors will be staring at them. But people might think that C.J. is advocating a level of "watchfulness" that involves viewing congregants with a nit-picky, sin-sniffing eye, just LOOKING for problems, flaws, and faults. Just LOOKING for sin.
That has NOTHING to do with "staring." But it DOES have to do with fearing a pastor's critical eye.
If C.J. truly wanted to put people's minds at rest, he should have addressed how this won't happen - that they don't need to worry about being constantly scrutinized in a negative, critical manner.
But instead he raises up and then seems to argue against something - the fear of being "stared at" - that has nothing to do with what his audience is likely thinking.]
Your soul needs the caring and watchful eye of a godly pastor – why? Let me just give you a few reasons. Don’t try to turn to these passages, but I’ll just give you a few right from Hebrews, I don’t even need to go out of this book. I’m just gonna give you a few reasons, just a sampling of – really, I would argue, compelling reasons drawn just from Hebrews, for your consideration.
Why you need godly pastors to watch over your soul. Number one, the continued – the continued presence and influence of remaining sin. The continued presence and influence of remaining sin. Sin is subtle, sin is active, and sin is present. And so we read in Hebrews chapter 12 verse 1, “Let us lay aside every weight AND SIN which clings so closely.”
[Kris says: This teaching would have been so much stronger if C.J. could have demonstrated specifically from scripture just how and where pastors are instructed to assist members with "the continued presence and influence of remaining sin." The truth is, we don't find many places in the New Testament that spell this out. C.J. assumes this. But the Bible does not.]
Second, the deceitfulness of sin. Not just the presence of sin, not just the influence of sin, but the deceitfulness of sin. So we read in Hebrews chapter 3 verse 13, “Exhort one another every day as long as it is today that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” We need good and godly pastors to watch over our souls because we are vulnerable on a daily basis to the deceitfulness of sin, the hardening effect of sin upon our souls. So sin is deceptive. That’s the DNA of sin, the DNA of sin is deception, therefore we need the discerning and caring eyes of pastors and others because so – so often I’M BLIND TO WHAT IS OBVIOUS TO THEM.
[Kris says: Um, where in the Bible does it tell us that pastors have a special kind of vision in this regard? That pastors have a better insight into and more awareness of the sins of their people? Even the verse that C.J. does cite - Hebrews 3:13 - is addressed to the body of believers at large. We are to "exhort one another." This is NOT an instruction given only (and specifically) to pastors. C.J. is twisting scripture to get it to support what he wants it to say here.]
Third, the possibility of drifting. And this would be, without a doubt, a primary concern of the writer of this letter. So we read in Hebrews chapter 2 verse 1, “Therefore we must pay closer attention – much closer attention – to what we have heard lest we drift away from it.” Actually, Hebrews is about the importance of perseverance and the possibility of drifting. [Kris says: Is it? Is that the main theme of Hebrews? It is my understanding that the main purpose of Hebrews is to present to its original audience - Jewish Christians - (and to us) the sufficiency and superiority of Christ, especially as juxtaposed against the insufficiency of the Jewish law and Old Testament system of animal sacrifices.]
So pastoral care is this means of imparting God’s preserving grace so that we might persevere. And you can do your own reading of Hebrews. Throughout, you’ll encounter numerous warnings that are sobering us, convincing us, of our need for those who are called to watch over our souls. We need the caring, discerning, watchful eyes of godly pastors and a pastoral team, your pastors are called to watch over your souls, and they are doing so on a daily basis. [Kris says: Yes, there are plenty of warnings and exhortations about persevering in the faith. But there are also equally as many reassurances of just Who it is that does the ultimate preserving. AND, most importantly, there is no direct connection between these exhortations and anything having to do with leaders. There's no statement in Hebrews that specifically says that leaders "keep us from drifting." Once again, C.J. is reading things into the text that are not actually there.]
They are watching over your souls through this Sunday celebration, through small groups, teaching, prayer, hospitality, personal care, discipleship, encouragement, correction, church discipline, and the list goes on and on. All of these are a means of pastors caring for you and watching over your souls. And regardless – regardless of the context, they as your pastors are never simply present or passive, they are always watching and caring for your souls.
[Kris says: So really, what C.J. is saying is that pastors, by virtue of their role in the church, have become a special and separate class of human beings? That they are never just hanging out and relating to others, without always being on the lookout, always "watching and caring for souls"? ALWAYS? Where do we see scriptural support for making pastors into people with so much extra responsibility, all the time?]
So yeah, it’s a wonderful announcement and a wonderful means of service. Lemonade on the lawn, wisely brought into the lobby this afternoon. Your pastors will be there, watching over your souls. Caring for you. Moving from individual to individual, making their way guest to guest. Not simply present, certainly politically motivated, not simply being polite. [Lowers voice to dramatic whisper.] No, no, they’re pastors! They are about people. And watching over souls. “How goes it with your soul?” That’s what they want to know.
[Kris says: So again, in C.J.'s ideal world, pastors would never just hang loose, relax, and be normal human beings? They're always flitting from person to person, watching over eternal souls?
I think it'd be better - and more scripturally accurate - to emphasize the concept that ALL CHRISTIANS are to view others as "eternal souls." It's not just pastors who are supposed to be doing this. They're not the only ones who are equipped thus.
Plus, what a major amount of phony weirdness to put on mere men...to suggest that they're "always" doing this. They're never really relaxing. It's always about their duties. If you're having a conversation with your pastor about the weather or a football game, there's always some other layer of interaction taking place? It's never just about two guys (or a guy and a gal) relating as humans, as brothers and sisters in Christ, members of the same family, where - most importantly - there are no favorites?]
They have some awareness of the present activity of sin, the deceitfulness of sin, the potential for you to drift even a week, the hardening effects of sin. And look, actually, it’s not exclusively, or even primarily, about applying the doctrine of sin to your soul. Actually, it’s primarily about identifying evidences of grace in your life. That’s a primary way pastors watch over souls. To draw to your attention – to draw to your attention – the ways in which God is at work, because often we are unaware of the ways in which God is at work because we are more aware of sin than we are grace. So God provides pastors to come into our life and say, “I discern God at work in your life,” and they, through communicating how they discern evidences of grace in your life, leave behind – well – leave behind an edified soul as a result. They’re watching over your souls. That’s their privilege, that’s their joy, that’s their responsibility, and – let’s be clear – it is your soul that is most important to them. Your soul is their main concern.
[Kris says: OK, I actually think this is C.J.'s only really strong point in this entire message. I love the idea of relating to my pastor in a way where I think of him as watching for the ways that God is at work in my life. I love that.
I'd like to think that this type of thinking would flow both directions, though - that I could encourage my pastor by sharing how I saw God at work in HIS life. Again, it feels like the office of pastor bestows upon a man some extra level of Christianity that the rest of us will never get to enjoy.]
The writer intentionally uses “soul” here to identify that which of eternal importance and significance. So the concern of your pastors is not simply or primarily with the present. The concern of your pastors is with your soul in relation to the future. See, there’s an eternal perspective present in this passage. Their concern is to prepare your soul for that final day. That’s their concern. Their concern is for your soul, and their concern is for your soul in relation to eternity, their concern is to prepare your soul for that final day, their concern is for your soul in relation to heaven and hell. Their concern is for your soul and the future experience of your soul because you are prone to neglect this biblical perspective of the future and to neglect this biblical perspective of the present in relation to the future. You are prone to neglect or even forget the eternal perspective and pastors are given as a gift from the ascended Christ to remind us of this perspective and this priority and to watch over our souls in relation to eternity. [Kris says: Scripture, please? Where does the Bible tell us that us "commoners" will forget our eternal perspective while pastors will not? Are pastors somehow removed from the same kinds of distractions and temptations with which the rest of us mere mortals struggle? Seriously? If so, then, where does the Bible tell us this?] They exist as a gift from God to care for your soul and to prepare your soul for that final day of examination and evaluation. They are here to shepherd your soul in this life with the gospel so that on that final day, you hear the words, “Well done,” and NOT, “Depart from me.”
That’s why they’re here. That’s what they do.
[End of first half of sermon transcript. To be continued...]
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
September 21st, 2009 at 10:46 am
I do apologize for the length of this post. If you’ve made it this far, though, do share your thoughts. What do you think of what CJ has taught so far?
Since we were just recently discussing the matter of expository preaching, I’m curious to know if anyone would consider this message expository in nature? If so, how?
September 21st, 2009 at 11:59 am
Kris wrote:
“But…it’s still rather…coincidental that C.J. chose THIS message to give at Cornerstone Church of Knoxville. Cornerstone is currently in the midst of putting a rule in place that requires all members – longtime, short-term, new, doesn’t matter – to sign a new document, a membership covenant, and some folks there have significant questions and concerns about the version that they are being asked to sign. It is a rather negative document, focusing solely on matters of church discipline, with a clause all about how a member who does come under discipline cannot then rescind his membership but must endure the discipline process. There’s even a provision where members must acknowledge that they are aware that the Knoxville church may elect to track down the pastors at whatever church they attempt to move on to after leaving SGM, and tell their new pastors all about why they’re under church discipline at Knoxville.”
Kris,
Thanks for including this very important insight! Something similar happened to my friend who recently left a Southern Baptist church. This is a plague that is spreading to other denominations!
I consider this to be extremely CULTISH!!! Where are “membership covenants” in the New Testament? Wake up!!! These signed covenants are legal documents designed to control the flock!
By the way, I would not describe Mahaney’s sermon as an example of expository preaching. Change is here to stay, and C.J. is now going around teaching others how to do expository preaching.
You can hear him in person at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (www.sebts.edu) this Friday at the God Exposed conference sponsored by IX Marks and the seminary.
C.J. Mahaney speaks right after dinner. Here’s info. from the conference schedule:
7:30 p.m. Session 4 – Mahaney – “Expository Faithfulness” (2 Timothy 4:1-5)
September 21st, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Kris,
Another thing to consider about the SGM church in Knoxville is that they were once part of the infamous Maranatha Campus Ministries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha_Campus_Ministries) Maranatha overemphasized the authority of their pastors IMHO.
September 21st, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Wanda,
Interesting, about how CJ is slated to teach on “Expository Faithfulness.” I wonder what he will say.
SGMsingle,
I didn’t realize that the Knoxville church had been part of Maranatha Campus Ministries. I do know that there have been others from the Maranatha group that found SGM to be a comfortable niche after they’d left Maranatha…and a bit of that no doubt had to do with SGM’s similar (although apparently more mild) teachings about “covering” and “authority.”
September 21st, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Just for the record, I don’t necessarily disagree with SOME of CJ’s points on submitting to pastoral authority. As long as he sticks to what is actually written in scripture, what he says is perfectly acceptable.
I think where I take issue is that SGM as an organization makes submission and obedience to pastors a major emphasis – to the neglect of other equally biblical teachings, like, for instance, where Jesus told His disciples not to lord their authority over others.
See, it’s my belief that problems arise not necessarily because a teaching is unscriptural, but rather because a scriptural teaching is magnified above other equally scriptural ideas that would balance it out.
We can see this at work plainly in the area of wifely submission.
Yes, the Bible tells women to submit to their husbands. But that is not the end of the discussion! In the very next breath, husbands are told to love their wives “as Christ loved the church.” Tell me, who actually has the much tougher job in that scenario? And, if the husband is doing his job – loving his wife with Christ’s sacrificial and generous love – then submitting to him is going to be EASY. And NATURAL.
Rather than hammering away at women to submit to their husbands, SGM ought to be focusing just as much or more attention on husbands’ behavior toward their wives. After all, if they’re going to use the metaphor of Christ and the church for the marital relationship, then what of that verse, “We loved Him because He first loved us”? Going on and on about women and their need to submit is only half the equation. It’s not a WRONG half, in and of itself. But it’s not the whole equation, either.
And when only half of an equation is emphasized, you get an unbalanced, unhealthy teaching.
I see that happening with this push for members to submit to pastors. While the idea of obeying one’s pastors might (and I repeat “might”) be too foreign to your average Evangelical – which, incidentally, is something that CJ throws in later on in this message – it seems like this idea is FAR TOO FAMILIAR to SGMers already. Instead of going around preaching at members to submit submit submit and obey obey obey, why doesn’t CJ give equal time to the idea of servanthood and mutual submission?
Again – it’s not that the submission message is wrong. It’s just half right. And when something only “half right” gets too much attention, a church gets unbalanced…which, in the end, is, I suppose, unscriptural.
September 21st, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Cornerstone was part of the Maranatha group, and I remember Sr. Pastor Bill Kittrell often making reference to their PDI/SGM adoption, during which Brent Detwiler came out and “straightened them [the pastors] out on a lot of things.”
I attended CCK for a little over a year (2001-2002) and heard variations of this message from CJ on three separate occasions. Regardless of his text, it seems his SGM preaching circuit is almost exclusively going around to tell congregations to obey and submit to their pastors. (It’s like when I have to round up the kids to remind them to obey my wife. Makes he wonder if the pastors specifically request a “CJ Lecture.”)
The biggest beef I have with this, though, is that CJ’s being stupid with the key passage. The word translated “obey” in the ESV really means to be teachable: to be in a position where you’re willing to be convinced if the other person turns out to be right. (In other words, the author of this epistle is saying, “these guys are trying to help you grow, so don’t be a stubborn jerk with them; that doesn’t do anyone any good.”)
CJ’s interpretation =
September 21st, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Travis,
Later in this message, CJ gives a quick mention of the idea of whether “obey” was correctly translated. Of course this will be posted with the second half of the transcript, but here is what he says:
My view is that while I personally hold to the same position as you do (that “obey” could probably have been more accurately translated as “allow yourselves to be persuaded by”), it IS true that the majority of translations do use “obey.” I think we can even concede that CJ is merely reflecting a majority-held view of the verse…and yet we can STILL argue against the way that he sees members’ obedience being worked out.
September 21st, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Back when I was in PDI, mid 90s, there seemed to be an extraordinary number of depressed women on meds in the church. I wondered about the reasons and of course there could be many.
A guy we knew who was a professional counselor in Philly and worked with people in some Reformed churches and had a few PDI clients, said that as a general rule, when somebody is given a strong “submit to my authority” message- secular boss, father, husband, church elder…and there is no sense of personal relationship and caring involvement, the people underneath get rebellious, whether kids, teens, wives, sheep, or workers. But if you don’t allow yourself to rebel because you want to be a good Christian then you tend to get depressed.
The PDI leaders had their own leaders small group, and we were told when we joined that they don’t fellowship with the flock and don’t accept invitations to dinner with the rank and file on the weekend sort of thing. (to be fair, some of them did occasionally anyway). And everybody was supposed to submit to people who did not seem to care for or be involved with them,(with the occasional exception, not all were that way).
If you did get a small group going that seemed to get tightly knit they’d come along and restructure it if they wanted and break up close loving friendships.
Maybe a lot of wife depression could be due to husbands or poor devotional lives and not the church, so my post is speculative. But if anybody tells you to submit while keeping themself aloof, run the other way if you can.
September 21st, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Hi Travis..I visited your website the other day and enjoyed looking at pics of the family. Thanks for sticking up for what is right.
Kris, I really appreciate your work here. I don’t think THEY appreciate you SPELLING IT OUT.
Everything CJ preaches is in his OPINION or his THEORY. Here is reality at my sovereign grace ministries church….
1. No pastor was watching (or staring) over anyone or anything. But CNN. And his self…no kidding when I say this. Small church, and he didn’t mingle with ANYOne who is not in leadership. Durrr
maybe this is a good thing.
2. Kris, I’ve said this a zillion times as a “sgm survivor”, but I have seen the destruction of what you spell out in blue in the lives of real families and people.
This message by CJ is weird…
September 21st, 2009 at 6:17 pm
5years,
I’ve actually heard this before, that an over-emphasis on submission will result in depressed people. I don’t know that I can cite statistics (to satisfy all the statistic-lovin’ SGM defenders out there), but it makes sense on a certain gut-instinct level…and I’ve certainly heard enough stories from depressed SGMers.
“a” (and 5years, too) -
You mentioned how leaders made it clear that they expected submission from the church members even while they did not seem to plan on developing super-close relationships with them. I think this is a good example of what I was trying to get at in my comment #5. If leaders spend way too much time hammering away at what is merely ONE aspect of the pastor-member relationship (like submission/obedience) and neglect the other aspects (like simple relating to one another), then the relationship simply will not be healthy or God-honoring or “biblical.”
September 21st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
And oh yeah, “a” -
I agree. I think CJ’s message comes across as kind of weird.
I especially found his prayer to be a bit…I don’t even know what to say…repetitious?…hypnotic?…
It almost felt like he was lulling his audience with that prayer. Check it out:
I’ve kicked this post around for awhile, asking a couple of correspondents for feedback. Here is what one of them said about CJ’s prayer:
I’d thought the same thing initially – ESPECIALLY after merely just listening to the audio. This particular prayer feels more like…almost a rap performance. It’s that rhythmic, that audience-conscious. You truly do NOT get the sense that CJ is talking to God so much as he is wanting his listeners to hear some thoughts.
It’s interesting, to say the least. As someone who has spent a lifetime in church, I’ve never heard a pastor lead a congregational prayer quite like this.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:56 pm
For now, I’ll add this article on narcissism to the discussion…
“When narcissistic people are placed in positions of leadership in a church or missionary organization, both their strengths and weaknesses impact those who work with them. On the positive side are the narcissist’s vision and capacity to stir people to set new goals and accomplish great things. They are often able to mobilize a congregation or group of people—especially if the people don’t work closely with them or if they trust them implicitly because of their leadership position.
On the negative side, narcissists need to be the focus of attention, have difficulty receiving advice and input from others, and may view members of their congregation or missionary team as people who should unquestionably accept and follow their vision.
If someone disagrees with the narcissist’s vision (whether it is to build a larger church sanctuary or start a new outreach), the narcissist (and his or her loyal followers) labels the dissenters as uncooperative, lacking vision or being unspiritual and out of God’s will. In their arrogance, narcissists naively assume that they know God’s will and that anyone who disagrees with them is opposing God rather than simply expressing a well considered opinion. Needless to say, this is extremely discouraging to members of a team or congregation who feel ignored or minimized or pushed aside as the narcissist pushes ahead with his or her own agenda.
Other narcissistic leaders try to subtly (or sometimes not so subtly) take credit for everything positive that is happening in a church or team. They can’t stand seeing anyone else getting credit or being in the lime light—unless they put them there and can share in the reflected admiration.
Many churches have been fractured or lost many fine members because of a narcissistic leader’s need to have everyone under his or her control. Even very successful ministries in the congregation of a narcissist are too big a threat to be tolerated if the narcissist can’t control them or take the credit.”
———
As with any disorder, most folks won’t have everything listed under the criteria. But ‘ol CJ has quite a few.
We’ve mentioned narcissism numerous times. If you’ve done much reading on narcissism, it’s pretty obvious…it doesn’t take an “expert” on the subject to figure it out.
I find CJ’s narcissism fascinating. He’s managed to acquire the admiration of others by appearing humble, professing to be “the worst sinner,” etc. This is a technique frequently used by “Christian” narcissistics.
I’m not saying CJ is “intentionally” manipulating people with his humility to feed his own need to be admired. Narcissistics learn very early, even as children, whatever means necessary to help them acquire what they’re missing. Some use a more “passive” approach to gaining it, while others are more “aggressive.”
Let’s face it, TRULY HUMBLE people don’t write books about it or draw attention to their humility. (And then there’s the CONSTANT parading of his “ideal-but-humble” family.)
September 21st, 2009 at 7:08 pm
lol…
make that “narcissist” when I refer to it as a noun.
(long day)
September 21st, 2009 at 7:38 pm
One thing I observe in this teaching is an inconsistency of understanding about the nature of salvation. CJ says the pastors are “watching over you, so that on the Last Day you will hear ‘well done,’ not ‘depart from Me.’” However, why should this be necessary?
I have been saved. I’m not going to get “un-saved” somewhere along the way. And CJ, being a Calvinist, believes this also, with a certain emphasis. He believes and teaches that no one can do anything to get God to save them, but once He does, nothing can un-save them. Presumably also, no one can do anything to get God to save someone else (in this way of thinking). Pastors watching over me cannot make my salvation happen. Pastors making sure that I’m being good cannot make my salvation secure. God promises that He can and will make my salvation sure.
Why then do we have this big emphasis on pastors watching over our souls as if it were possible for our salvation to slip away? Why this uncertainty, this underlying fear that we may get to the last day and be rejected after all? This is not consistent with Calvinist doctrine. (And I don’t believe it, either.
)
September 21st, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Here is what I would ask CJ – who is watching the watchers? CJ has given this message multiple times over the last three years and this site is full of examples of pastors and pastoral staffs that were/are negligent in caring for the flock. CJ, how about some exposition or a string of anecdotes about SG pastors or leaders who have made a practice of lording it over the flock? Sheesh … rant over.
September 21st, 2009 at 8:08 pm
What 5 years said is true.
There was a lot of depression among women. If a man gets blamed, it is for not being a strong enough leader. In fact, I have a personal experience in which I was told not to talk more than my husband. My husband is very quiet in group settings so I stopped talking. I was told that I was, “sullen,” and it reflected poorly on my husband’s leadership.
And, yes, the leaders don’t rub elbows with the members. I remember reading a fund raising mailing in which the distinction between leaders and members was sharp. The words, “leader,” or “pastor,” and “member” was used as though they were distinct species or something.
Depression is common in people who feel trapped.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:31 pm
I agree with newly…who is watching the watchers…
My Mahoney, or is it Mahaney….what about when the leaders don’t have integrity, or are abusive. What if they lack Godly character and have no understanding of counsel…
what then…..what book do I turn to, what verse is it CJ? When your leaders are leading folks astray….
September 21st, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Kindred,
Interesting stuff, about narcissism. Obviously, it’s pointless – and unfair – for us to try to diagnose someone based strictly upon his public persona. But I do find CJ’s public persona simply amazing. I mean, it’s downright bizarre how someone could cultivate a reputation for being wonderfully humble and yet still do all the very obviously UN-humble things that CJ does.
Like, for instance, how he thanks his Knoxville audience in this Happiest Place On Earth message, for what must have been the Knoxville pastor’s complimentary words about Carolyn and his daughters. Who on earth responds to a compliment like that? And somehow manages to retain his rep for “humility”??
Imagine if anybody else did that.
Imagine if you told your friend that you liked her new winter coat…and her response was, “Well, it’s been typical that wherever I go, people express their admiration for my taste in clothing…” What would you think of your friend? Would she still seem “humble” to you?
What if you told your pastor that you really appreciated Sunday’s message, and his response was, “Yes, yes – that’s the usual response people have when I preach…”
Yet somehow, CJ can say these kinds of things, and people still think he’s humble?
How is this possible?
Is it the hypnotic cadences of CJ’s speech patterns? His strategic use of humor? (And yeah, why does nobody else notice how CJ always laughs so heartily at his own jokes??)
Honestly, I do NOT mean to pick on CJ. I’m not CJ-bashing. I’m really and truly curious. I’ve come to the conclusion that CJ has great magnetic personal charm, an extremely persuasive presence. But beyond that…it’s really baffling, to someone who has never come under CJ’s spell.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Luna,
It’s pretty bizarre that SGM can market itself as “Reformed” while also strongly pushing the message that people can de-save themselves. I guess this is like the de-gifting that happens with some pastors?
newly,
I’ve been hammering away at your question since early in this site’s history. I don’t understand it either – who IS watching the watchers?
DB,
This -
is quite profound.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:18 pm
Wow Kris – you pushed the red buttton! I can’t wait to read but it will have to be a couple of days from now….great topic…looking forward to it.
September 21st, 2009 at 11:42 pm
OK, it’s late and I’m goofy and the transcript above raises questions on so many levels (Kris, thanks for taking the time to transcribe!). But I have it on good authority that this is how the rapper Kanye West responded:
“CJ, I’m really happy for you – and I’m gonna let you finish – but the Westminster Confession had one of the best statements on perseverance of all time … by the way, CJ, the WCF says this: ‘
perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father … upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ … the abiding of the Spirit … and of the seed of God within them … and the nature of the covenant of grace’ … so CJ where do you get ‘pastoral care is this means of imparting God’s preserving grace so that we might persevere’ … remember CJ, I’m happy for you … but you say you are Reformed, right? … now I’m gonna let you finish”
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:31 am
newly,
Heh. That’s funny.
It seems to me that there are all sorts of implications to this “watch over your soul” stuff. Here is the verse (Hebrews 13:17) that CJ reads at the beginning of the message:
(The capitalized words are probably not in the original text but merely attempt to capture the way that CJ emphasized certain words as he read the verse.)
Here’s the thing about that verse: if you read it carefully, you’ll see that NOWHERE does it insinuate that leaders are going to give an account to God for members’ behavior. Rather, the insinuation is that leaders will “give an account” for how well they personally do their jobs.
Yet the way that CJ hammers on this, it’s easy to come away with the feeling that somehow, on Judgment Day, one’s leaders will be some sort of clearing house or buffer zone as one stands before God. Otherwise, what would “perseverance” ultimately have to do with leaders watching over our souls, if they didn’t have some sort of say in helping God assess “how we did”?
I found the following statement interesting:
I would challenge anyone to find anything in Hebrews that directly connects the concept of persevering with the concept of pastoral care. It’s just not there, and that’s why CJ doesn’t quote any other verses to support his statement.
Again – I’m not disputing the idea that we need our pastors. But I just don’t think that their role is what CJ is making it out to be in this message.
Here’s what one of my correspondents (someone who has attended an SGM church for many years) said about CJ’s description in this transcript of the pastoral role:
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:49 am
Kris said:
“My view is that while I personally hold to the same position as you do (that “obey” could probably have been more accurately translated as “allow yourselves to be persuaded by”), it IS true that the majority of translations do use “obey.” I think we can even concede that CJ is merely reflecting a majority-held view of the verse…and yet we can STILL argue against the way that he sees members’ obedience being worked out.”
One thing that one might consider here is that “obey” might be the best one word way to translate this to English but in this case that doesn’t mean that word shows the author’s original intention. From what I have heard, the English language isn’t as complex or have as many words to describe things as other languages, hence things such as this can be lost in the translation.
If the translator has to pick just one word, I am not sure what other word besides “obey” they would choose. Even with that being the case, something can still be lost in the translation. Also, I have heard is that many times new bible translators are reluctant to change wordage.
You also quoted Mahaney as saying:
” Surely in the original, the – I mean – it doesn’t mean – it doesn’t really mean OBEY. It doesn’t – NO WAY. And what’s up with the ‘submit’? That – no – no, I’m sure some intelligent individual who’s familiar with the original language could tell us why it – it – it – doesn’t mean THAT.”
And so if you’re anticipating me spending this – rest of this sermon telling you, “You know, it doesn’t really mean that,” or trying to soften it or alter it, you might as well start drawing a picture as well, ‘cause that’s not – that’s not what’s gonna be happening here today.”
It is sad that Mahaney apparently doesn’t even acknowlege what a number of people will say about the intent of this passage in the Greek. Of course that this passage might mean more along the lines of being persuaded doesn’t work with what he wants to teach so apparently he is ignoring that.
In the past when I heard of his teaching I thought he was just ignorant and hadn’t done a study using Greek helps on this passage. For Mahaney to now say what he said means that has some knowledge and is apparenlty ignoring it.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
“If the translator has to pick just one word, I am not sure what other word besides ‘obey’ they would choose.”
Here’s one thing I look to: every instance where the author used the word peitho in this epistle (ESV except where noted):
Hebrews 2:13: And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.”
Hebrews 6:9: Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.
Hebrews 11:13: These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar,* and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
*[KJV "but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them" -- the phrase including peitho was apparently excluded here in the ESV]
Hebrews 13:17: Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Hebrews 13:18: Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.
So why is it that each verse where the writer or some 3rd-person is mentioned, it’s translated to mean “having been convinced,” but when there’s a verse telling believers how to act toward leaders, it’s translated “obey” (usually reserved for hupakouo)?
hupakouo: of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is (the duty of a porter)
peitho: to make friends of, to win one’s favor, gain one’s good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one / to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
Hebrews 13:17 is not saying to obey your leaders because they’ll get spanked by God for your disobedience. Hebrews 13:17 is saying that leaders who know they’ll have to give an account for their own actions are more likely to be trustworthy, so approach them with an assumption of trustworthiness.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Travis,
Excellent analysis. Thanks for that.
My thing, though, is that even if we keep “obey” in place (with our typical simplistic understanding of it), CJ’s message is still faulty on a number of levels.
I realize I keep repeating myself. But I do so because I know we have a lot of readers out there – present-day SGM readers in particular – who will tune out everything else that is wrong with CJ’s message if they can comfort themselves with, “Oh, those critics are just a bunch of people who want to water down the Bible and not take what it says seriously.”
That’s basically what CJ himself does when he goes on (in the second half of this message, transcript to be posted in a few days) to say that we cannot be uncomfortable with the word “obey” because the Bible is not uncomfortable with such language. He doesn’t even directly address the translation question, but the implication is that anyone who wants to do so is simply “uncomfortable” with the notion of obedience/submission because of their sinfulness.
September 22nd, 2009 at 2:30 pm
I do read this blog from time to time, but I felt compelled to post on this specific topic.
I just listened to the complete message by C J Mahaney and I am about to puke my guts out. That was one of the most pathetic and absurd messages I have ever heard.
He does not know the Greek, as Travis rightly pointed out, nor the context, nor the reason for the Hebrew letter and it’s audience.
I do not even know where to begin. Let’s start with leadership = pastoral team. Nowhere does Hebrews refer to any pastors or pastoral team. Total assumptive hogwash. “Leaders” are not defined, nor limited in Hebrews. And the book of Hebrews was not addressed to any church setting. C J needs a course in Biblical hermeneutics, and fast.
Second – “give an account”. Then C J adds “on Judgement Day”. More assumptive bologna. He talks about the eternal nature of this passage which is never expressed in the text. In fact, it never says to whom the account will be given. He assumes it is to God, and he assumes it happens on Judgement Day.
Am I a joy to pastor? Where is that question in the Bible? More guilt producing sewage from Mr Mahaney. Is it a joy to be manipulated and controlled by scripture twisting false apostles? That is the question!
C J Mahaney is a self promoted super apostle who is worshipped by the blind followers at SGM. May God have mercy on HIS soul!
I have much more to say about this so called “teaching”, but I need to go throw up some more. C J needs to repent and step down from his unbiblical and lofty position.
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Kris, it’s really interesting to actually see the words of the sermon printed out, apart from the hypnotic voice. You can actually “hear” better what he is trying to say. Even for half of a sermon, there’s just not much content there. And what is more sad is what IS there bothers me. I am learning to tune out the more SGM-y facets of our church life and just focus on what is actually positive (there is much, there are “evidenceas of grace” as the saying goes — and consistently try to inject as much positive stuff as I can (like our identity in Christ to balance the “worm” mentality) into my interactions with others in our SGM church.
I do see depression coming from the negative and/or authoritarian mindset, especially as it feeds into the families and the way the husbands treat their wives, parents treat their children, etc. I certainly get down when I dwell on it. I’m really concerned that young women who have grown up in this church don’t even know any other frame of reference and can’t quite put a finger on the source of their angst — or worse yet feel guilty if they even lean in the direction of implicating their church as a possible cause. At least I know to stick my head out the window (figuratively speaking) to get some fresh air. That’s when the joy comes back. Thanks for letting me know I’m not crazy to feel the way I do sometimes.
September 22nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Hi, Rich. Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I agree with you that there is much in this teaching that is all backward. Yet what is so amazing is that The Happiest Place On Earth has been a key message within the SGM organization. CJ apparently thinks it’s such a crucial sermon that he’s even gone outside of SGM and preached it in venues where his audience ought to have picked up on his errors. (For instance, he preached this message at John MacArthur’s church.)
But he definitely does emphasize the “watching over your souls” and “giving account” aspects more in the SGM version.
Still, I wonder why CJ’s star continues to rise among the likes of MacArthur and Mark Dever, even after he preached this message in their churches? Why wouldn’t they have seen the errors?
September 22nd, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Tonic,
I definitely think that some SGM churches are more free…more open and positive than others. Some SGM churches exhibit fewer characteristics of the controlling culture.
But for kids who have grown up getting a steady diet of “submit and obey” (to the neglect of being taught how to be Bereans and be strong in their identity as free and victorious in Christ), I do wonder how they can cope…particularly the girls. Again, it’s not so much that SGM’s message is “all wrong” or “totally unbiblical.” It’s just that it’s only HALF (or a small piece) of the full story. And if you’re only operating with a piece of the truth, then you don’t know the full truth and won’t have a fully functioning faith. Sad stuff.
September 22nd, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Kris,
Thank you for transcribing this message and for posting it here. It’s helpful to read.
Um, what is really really freaking me out is this thing with pastors watching us. What are they doing? Walking around, taking mental notes of every word, every perceived attitude or tone in your voice? What are they doing?
I think this stuff is getting freakier and freakier to me as time goes on. I don’t even think this would have been OK with me when I was fully “assimilated” into the cult-ure. When I wasn’t even thinking on my own. I don’t think this would have ever been OK with me.
I feel slimed!
Thanks, Travis, Steve, Rich, Kris et al, for the helpful explanation of interpretation of scripture. Of course, I feel like I’ve only really been learning the Word of God for a little over a year, so it’s good for me to learn.
My understanding is so weak…thanks, SGM! You “served me well.”
Every single Sunday, at our new church, I lean over and ask my husband “Is this message OK? Is this sound doctrine? Why hasn’t he preached the Gospel yet?” Every single Sunday I do this.
Will I EVER be normal?
Sid
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:32 pm
What struck me about this passage -
is that this is a HUGE burden for any mere human being to carry around all the time. When do these guys ever just get to hang loose with their church people? Are they ALWAYS on high alert, “watching over souls”?
If so, how can they stand the pressure?
September 22nd, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Sid,
You’ll be normal.
Actually, it seems to me like you kinda already are, because one mark of “normal” is that you do evaluate and question what you’re taught. You study the Word on your own and compare what you’ve been taught with what you read in the Bible.
And I agree with you that this “watch over your souls” stuff is pretty freaky. Like I said earlier, I wonder why more people haven’t been put off by some of the implications of this teaching.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Imagine being in a church of 3000. CLC has 14 pastors over people. They also have executive, administrative and other pastors, totaling 20 altogether. If you want to add in the SGM guys who are based at CLC, the grand total of pastoral types that are employed at Mecca…er…CLC….24.
There are 24 guys who are responsible for “watching over” 3,000 people?
What does that mean? IF every one of these guys is actually doing his job, as CJ lays it out, each of these men are not only responsible for their family, their job and their entire life, they are also solely responsible to be sure that 125 people don’t lose their salvation.
I’m going to guess that the only guys who really do this are the first 14 I mentioned…the ones who are over care groups…
Each one of these guys has to be so intimately involved with over 200 individuals?
HOW on earth are they going to do that?
What happens when they miss one? When they miss the man who’s having an affair…or a few…when they miss the wife who’s beating her children…when they miss the single who’s dating? Or the high schooler who’s getting high. Since they have taken it upon themselves to be solely responsible for so many people, what happens when they answer to God and the people under their watch have sinned?
I guess that’s why CJ is giving this fine message. So he can scare the folks into being good little sheep and making the pastor’s job easy…
Come on, people. How can we think this is OK? HOW on earth can this be OK?
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Rich,
I though you might appreciate the comic relief of this parody of an SGM defender…
Before I bring an observation on your comment above about Mr. Mahaney’s hermeneutical prowess, I want to make it clear that I am the worst sinner I know and I am doing better than I deserve. Don’t hear what I am not saying. This is a humble observation.
At SGM we do not describe our leaders’ words as “guilt producing sewage”. That is an unbiblical phrase probably used in the therapeutic movement. Instead, we are intentional about our words. We seek to bring the Gospel into every area of our lives, including what we say. Perhaps you are not serving in your local church and you are not a joy to pastor, so you may be misunderstanding our leader’s motives behind his words. Remember that the heart is deceitful above all things, so have a healthy mistrust for your feelings and do not assume you know his motives. Here is some wise counsel: trust SGM pastors and leadership team members. They do not speak “guilt producing sewage”. They are merely being intentional about watching for our souls by carefully choosing words. Consider whether YOU are being divisive, Rich. The Bible has some very unpleasant things to say about people who are divisive. And, Rich, do you think there might be some pride beneath that divisiveness? The Bible does not speak too fondly of the prideful, either, Rich.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Kris,
Thanks. The problem is that my “questions” are based on the SGM barometer.
It was funny. This past Sunday, the pastor was about 2/3 of the way through his teaching. I leaned over to my husband and said “I don’t know. I have not heard him preach the Gospel yet. Is this OK?”
My husband said “They don’t HAVE to preach the full Gospel in EVERY single message. It’s fine.”
Funny thing? 4 minutes later, the guy brought the entire teaching to the Gospel and it was a beautiful thing.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Well, once again, CJ doesn’t LITERALLY spell out that pastors have to keep people from “losing their salvation.” I think he’s smart enough not to go on the record as having said that someone can lose his salvation.
HOWEVER, in day-to-day practice, SGM does indeed believe that someone can “get unsaved.” According to a couple of different correspondents, there was a rash of re-baptisms at CLC a few years back, when this idea was emphasized in a series of teachings. We also have reports of people – even some kids – who were caught in certain sins (like sexual escapades, or drug use) and have now been decreed as “unsaved.”
I think the truth is that SGM absolutely does believe that certain sins can wipe out a person’s salvation, even after they lived as professed believers, sometimes for many years. I’m guessing that they would say that this would have to be “a pattern of unrepentant sin,” but it would appear – from reports of various folks who have come under church discipline and have been declared to have new “unbeliever” status – that the “pattern” isn’t exactly so clear-cut…OR scripturally defined.
And about Sidney’s curiosity over how a couple dozen pastors could possibly “watch over” 3,000 souls – well, it’s my guess that a significant part of the “watching over souls” aspect of a pastor’s job happens through those reports that care group leaders submit. Yes, as people are feeling social and “safe” while hanging out and sharing with their care group friends, their leader is actually making notes (written or mental) of potential areas of concern…and areas of sinfulness…and these notes are then given to the pastors.
September 22nd, 2009 at 7:37 pm
SGMsingle,
Thanks for the chuckle!
I think that WE really need to bring YOU an observation. Heh.
September 22nd, 2009 at 8:55 pm
In my life I have known 4 very godly men. 2 of them died suddenly, young. Out of the other 2 one is my brother. I have never seen a man love more, give more, care more, think more, pray more, hug more, work more, accept more…talk more than he. This man grew up to be my best friend. He intregues me, protects me, feeds me…and for the most part will always find the time of day…for me.
This man loves God. He feeds the homeless and his elderly neighbors, makes a place for his sick inlaws, repairs things cries when he needs to.. My brother has lots of flaws, but they are hidden among gems. Brightly colored lights that shine for Christ. He is creative, a great father and husband and a brother that I wouldn’t trade for the world….
At Sovereign Grace Ministries, when this Godly man challenged the pastor (who is lazy and without integrity,) concerning the word of God…the Sr Pastor called my brother of all things….
DEVISIVE..
If I had to sit down and think of bad words to call MY brother, at least the first 100 of them…the word DEVISIVE would not be there. He houses the wayword, gives rides, prayes, mowes, makes hospital visits, and more meals for the hungry than some non profit organizations…no kidding. And he is my brother….
Sgm single, you reminded me of that in your joke. It was funny, but not when I remembered how my brother was treated.
He is a man of God. He stands up when the dumb sheep blindly follow and obey their leaders. The blind lead the blind and they both fall in a ditch.
I know you don’t read brother, but if you did, I love you and I am praying for you and your family…You are on my heart tonight…
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Travis
That was good to see how the same Greek word was translated in other passages of the bible.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Kris, In my times as a CGL wife the way CLC got around declaring people to “now” be unsaved after several years of being in the church was to just say that they were never saved in the first place and time proved that. They are not one of the elect.
DB, I was once told that everytime I speak in small group or even in fellowship with friends that I was to look at my husband with a look of “do you agree dear” or I am not being submissive.
5yearsinPDI: YES! This strong submission message from CLC certainly put me in a suicidal depression and it is only by God’s mercy that I didn’t not take myself out. The pressure to strive to do more and the constant message of submit everything to your leader INCLUDING your emotions and never being good enough and the pressure to protect your reputation and worry about how others viewed you or judged you or how your character was defined solely by their assessment at any given moment was too much for this sheep. I see in the CJ message above nothing but pure manipulation.
“their concern is to prepare your soul for that final day, their concern is for your soul in relation to heaven and hell.”
This is the kind of things they would say that would lead a person to believe that when they lose their pastor’s approval and acceptance that they have also lost God’s. It took me years of getting away from this crap to realize that CJ and no man can prepare my soul in relation to heaven and hell or in relation to God. Christ has done all that for me and “It is finished” so I don’t need CJ to prepare a place for me…or to watch over my soul…I am safe in the hands of a mighty God and no help from CJ is required. My pastor now helps me grow in Christ and leads me to use my gifts and counsels me when needed and he would correct me if there was a situation that required it..but in love and he is not watching my every move and confronting my emotions or constantly raising the bar too high for my reach. I am a better person for his leadership but it is done without manipulation or strong arm tactics..he does it like Christ, in humility, and grace, and I am constantly amazed at the privledge of being part of the body of Christ and I have unspeakable joy and not the hopeless depression I had at CLC…. Um…so, if CJ has to give an account of when he was my pastor then he can account for leaving God’s daughter hopeless and left to die on the side of a road somewhere…
This message makes me
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:22 pm
“it’s easy to come away with the feeling that somehow, on Judgment Day, one’s leaders will be some sort of clearing house or buffer zone as one stands before God.”
BINGO.
It all makes sense when you look at CJM/SGM as a strange version of the Roman Catholic Church.
You have the pope, the cardinals, the priests, etc. There is a human mediator between God and man. You are not a high priest to God as scripture says, nor can you go into the holy of holies to the very mercy seat without a priest.
Now I am not trying to promote some anti church idea here…God set elders and deacons and the 4/5 fold ministry in His body and they have a valid function. But taking the place of Jesus Christ is not it!
This was very popular back in the shepherding movement days. Your church authority/pastor/elders were your spiritual covering, your umbrella of protection. Step out of that covering and you are DOOMED!
The covering (or kippur, think of Yom Kippur, the day of atonement; same root as the kippa- that little headcovering cap Jewish guys wear) was the blood of the lamb over the door that saved you from the angel of death. The atonement is your covering, the blood of Jesus the lamb. THAT is your protection, not a man.
SGM is just more warmed over shepherding with a man to protect you. Yeah shepherds guard the flock, and a good pastor and good preaching matters, but we are ALL under the blood alone, to protect us from sin and Satan and enable us to persevere. It is blasphemy to start making men into something that only the blood of Jesus is for us.
Just the same old Rome, with the five points of Calvinism for soteriology thrown in.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:23 pm
by the way Travis, #24- excellent!!!!!!!!! Thanks.
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Butterfly,
Thanks for sharing your heartbreaking story. So glad you now have a pastor who encourages you.
I am praying that your comment ministers to many who are trapped in SGM as you were. Congregations should be a place of freedom, not bondage, as your name obviously implies.
May God continue to bless you.
September 22nd, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Wanda,
Thanks. God has been unbelievably good to me. Jesus is the good shepherd, the true shepherd, and in Him I am complete and have all I need. Butterfly is living free – under God’s watchful eye.
Funny thing too is that I remember CJ always saying years ago that his heart is a pastor and how churches invite him to speak and he would turn them down. That he would never be about going on the speaking circuit because God called Him as a pastor and his heart is with CLC…I guess Joshua Harris had to step in because he is more gifted?
September 23rd, 2009 at 6:58 am
Butterfly,
I find it particularly interesting to hear feedback from folks who used to attend CLC and listened to CJ week after week – I think they have a unique perspective on the nuances of this teaching.
Like Wanda, I’m really glad that you’re in a better place, with a pastor who has a better grip on what his role should be. It must have been painful to feel like your faith was based upon your performance rather than Christ’s.
5years,
I agree with you, I definitely see major elements of shepherding in CJ’s teaching, as well as some of the Roman Catholic ideas about priests as being a different class of believer than the average church member.
September 23rd, 2009 at 7:08 am
The line from the transcript that Butterfly quoted -
made me realize something.
If you really think about that statement – that pastors “prepare our souls” for “that final day,” and that they are concerned about our souls “in relation to heaven and hell” – it most DEFINITELY implies that there’s something way beyond the work of Christ involved in what happens to us on Judgment Day.
But the Bible never tells us that pastors “prepare our souls for that final day.” The Bible – especially (and ironically) the entire book of Hebrews – tells us that JESUS does this!
When did SGM pastors get so confused about their job description?
September 23rd, 2009 at 7:13 am
OK, can anyone help me out here?
Like I was saying yesterday, I am very confused about how CJ can go around preaching this message all over the country, even to non-SGM churches, and NOBODY sees ANYTHING amiss with what he teaches?
How is this possible?
Is it that nobody actually “hears” what his words really mean? Are they so captivated by the rhythmic cadences of his speech patterns that they shut down and don’t really listen? Does nobody go home and search out the book of Hebrews for themselves, to see if “submitting and obeying your pastors” is REALLY the “main point” of Hebrews?
Hasn’t anyone ever noticed the strange implications of talking about Judgment Day in relation to a pastor’s role and how well a member submits to his pastor?
I’m really puzzled by this. How could Mark Dever and John MacArthur sit through this teaching and be OK with it?
September 23rd, 2009 at 7:13 am
Kris, It was horrible. The good side of it now for me is that I appreciate things to the UTMOST that people who have been Christians for a long time can take for granted and lose the “magic” of for lack of a better word this early in the morning. But, I can look with child-like faith now at things some people no longer think much about. I don’t take one aspect of Christ’s amazing love, grace, life, death or God making me His daughter, or that the Holy Spirit lives in me, or that God has a plan for my life, or one drop of it for granted….because I know what it is like to literally be told…”not you”….”none of this is for you”…”no place in the Body of Christ for you”…I know a deeper amazement than I would have without that experince. Although what I wrote above might sound like hurt and anger…it is passion..it fires me up to see CJ trying to manipulate, control, and force that on others…if I was in that church he was speaking to now I would invite all my friends share with them the trutch and have a membership contract burning party and then worship Christ and the fact that He and I are in covenant!
September 23rd, 2009 at 3:58 pm
“…I am very confused about how CJ can go around preaching this message all over the country, even to non-SGM churches, and NOBODY sees ANYTHING amiss with what he teaches?
How is this possible?
Is it that nobody actually “hears” what his words really mean? Are they so captivated by the rhythmic cadences of his speech patterns that they shut down and don’t really listen? Does nobody go home and search out the book of Hebrews for themselves, to see if “submitting and obeying your pastors” is REALLY the “main point” of Hebrews?
Hasn’t anyone ever noticed the strange implications of talking about Judgment Day in relation to a pastor’s role and how well a member submits to his pastor?
I’m really puzzled by this. How could Mark Dever and John MacArthur sit through this teaching and be OK with it?”
I agree!!! I keep asking folks the SAME THING!!!
You know, I “poo-pooed” the whole “rhythmic cadences of CJ’s speech patterns” putting people into some type of “hypnotic” state back when we were discussing it on some old threads…but I’m honestly starting to entertain the possibility.
You would think MacArthur and some of the others would do a better job at “guarding” their flock.
It’s sad!! These guys are starting to resemble politicians. They should be holding one another accountable. THEY should be the ones “watching the watchers!”
September 23rd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I’ve been thinking a lot lately about our “Berean” discussions.
Unfortunately there ARE a lot of Christians who will believe anything they hear without question; but there are also a lot of Christians that DO think for themselves, and question and compare what they hear to scripture on a regular basis.
Thanks to the internet, I honestly believe the body of Christ is more “Berean” today than it’s been in a long, long time. The average “layman” has more information available to him than EVER before. These pastors (the “big dogs”) had better wake up. The “Berean population” will continue to get bolder and louder, questioning the “big dogs” take on things and holding them accountable.
I’m afraid many of them are in for a rude awakening. It’s going to take some of them by surprise. And those poor guys that only have a “Pastors’ College degree”…they’d better keep hitting the sheep over the head with that “submit and obey” stuff.