Over yonder at CJ Mahaney’s “blog” (is it really a blog if no comments are permitted?), Jeff Purswell tackles the subject of the gospel.
And he does a good job of it.
Although it takes him an agonizingly long while to define what, precisely, the gospel is – and involves some awfully high-’n'-mighty vocabulary, like the word “entailments” – he does, finally, get around to saying this, which in my opinion is the strongest, clearest definition of “the gospel” that I’ve ever heard from anyone at Sovereign Grace Ministries:
So what is the gospel?
Although this brief survey is far from complete, it consistently reveals that the gospel is good news concerning Jesus and what he did to accomplish salvation for sinners.
In other words, the gospel is objective. It tells us what God has done to save his people. It consists of concrete, historical events, rooted in Old Testament promises, types, and institutions that were fulfilled in Jesus. It promises that all who trust in Christ and his work will receive forgiveness and life. Of course, this isn’t merely a catalogue of events of only historical interest; all of this has massive implications for our lives. But we must not confuse the gospel message itself with the outworking of those implications.
So, for example, although the gospel calls me to respond to what Jesus has done, strictly speaking it doesn’t include my response—repentance is not the gospel. Although the gospel introduces me to a life lived in glad obedience to God, strictly speaking it doesn’t include that life of obedience. Our existence as Christians involves unspeakable privileges, significant responsibilities, and untold promise. But those things themselves are not the gospel.
Of course, all of this begs the question, if this really is SGM’s working definition of “the gospel,” then why, in SGMville, does the good news of what Jesus has done for us constantly seem to get lost in the shuffle of how people are supposed to respond, and always in the context of SGM’s own culture?
I mean, every time I’ve ever heard a Sovereign Grace pastor use the phrase, “Bring ‘the gospel’ into [fill in the blank],” the bottom line is ALWAYS about something that a person must then DO (or not do) in response. For instance, in the teaching given to SGM pastors about “the counseling process,” it seems like SGM teaches its pastors to use “the gospel” as some sort of trump card, a magic bullet to minimize even the most serious mental illnesses. It’s like since Jesus did all this suffering for us, and since our biggest problem (sin) is already therefore solved, we really have no reason to be concerned about any of our other problems. Here is just a tiny exerpt from the transcript of Andy Farmer’s teaching (my commentary is in blue):
[16] Um. So. Ah. Depression medication, um. And so I got to know some of their story and so I was able to catch up with them. About the Gospel. Obviously they’re both believers so they’re – very confident in that, uh, historically and in the present, but I could recognize that – that the Gospel has taken hits in their lives. [Kris says: Once again, Mr. Farmer is speaking of the Good News of Jesus as something that seems like less than a historical fact of Jesus' defeat of death, sin, and the devil. Once again the Gospel is spoken of instead as something that can "take hits." I just find this terminology odd. The Bible never speaks of the Gospel as being able to "take hits" or be detracted from by the trials of life. Why do SGM pastors speak of it in this way?] One of the things I’ve recognized with Jeff is that he is – he is – his solutions to the problems are all pragmatic. They don’t require any faith, they don’t require anything from God to do. They’re just – it’s not because he – he’s committed to that, it’s just because that’s where he’s gotten to. “What do I gotta do to fix her?” So his gospel deficiency is he thinks he – the Gospel is what you do in order to have the right to be able to fix your own problems. That’s his functional gospel. You believe this so that now you have the right to fix your problems. So one of the things I’m recognizing is that I have to help him recognize that his solutions, though logical, started from that frame of reference, though they – so one of the things I’m helping him with is, “Yes, that’s a great idea, but if you’re not trusting in God, it’s not gonna work.”
[17] Oh, man, who said that today? You hear so many great things at the conferences you forget where they come from. [Crowd chuckles.] Um, but – but if you, uh, ah – I don’t think I’m gonna go there, gotta get it into context, ah – but – so – so – I recognized that with him. With her, I recognized that, that she is having – I asked her about her devotions, her – and she’s having intense devotions. She’s not working, she was debilitated by, by the depression. And that’s the way she’s understanding herself, debilitated by the depression. She couldn’t handle the pressure, and so she’s having like four-hour quiet times. But we’re on – what is she doing in her quiet times? She’s just journaling. She’s spilling it out into a journal. She’s basically regurgitating bad stuff and feeding on it.
[18] [Chimes sound] That means it’s, um, 12:30. OK. Um, so – so anyway, she’s uh, so I get, OK, I got to help her see that that’s not healthy devotions. That’s a wrong understanding, built on a wrong understanding of the Gospel. The Gospel isn’t – devotions not meant for me to get what’s out here onto paper. Devotions are meant for me to get what’s out there into my heart, into my thinking on a daily basis. So that’s a Gospel issue for her. So I just – we talk about that a little bit and I move on.
[Kris says: Does the Bible condemn spending 4 hours journaling? Where in Scripture would we find God's thoughts about one's devotional habits being a "Gospel issue"? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Mr. Farmer's ultimate advice to this woman, but it just seems to me that if pastors in Mr. Farmer's audience are going to receive an example of weighing in condemningly on a member's personal devotional habits, there ought to be some more specific Scriptural guidelines for doing so.]
Note how oddly “the gospel” is spoken of in this segment. It certainly doesn’t seem at all consistent with what Mr. Purswell shares today on CJ’s blog. Rather than being about the accomplished fact of what Jesus has already done for us, “the gospel” in the above exerpt is something that can “take hits” because of a person’s attitudes toward problem-solving, or because of a person’s (supposedly) faulty devotional habits.
It’s a good step in the right direction, of course, to read Mr. Purswell’s blog post today. But how consistent are his words -
So, for example, although the gospel calls me to respond to what Jesus has done, strictly speaking it doesn’t include my response—repentance is not the gospel. Although the gospel introduces me to a life lived in glad obedience to God, strictly speaking it doesn’t include that life of obedience. Our existence as Christians involves unspeakable privileges, significant responsibilities, and untold promise. But those things themselves are not the gospel.
with what SGM churches actually proclaim through their actions on a daily basis?
If “the gospel” is really all about what Jesus has done for us, then why does “the gospel” within SGM seem to hinge on all sorts of elements of our response TO the gospel, like our participation in a very specific kind of church life?
After all, Sovereign Grace Ministries views its church-planting efforts as “missions.” In fact, SGM does very little else to “spread the gospel” except to start more SGM churches, which typically pop up in suburbs that are already saturated with plenty of other decent Bible-believing, gospel-proclaiming churches.
So what’s going on here?
I’m glad that Jeff Purswell has taken the time to give us such a good definition of the good news of Jesus’ accomplished work on our behalf.
It just seems to me like what he wrote bears little resemblance to the reality of daily life within most SGM churches.
I'm verwy verwy sad, RT. We can start our own crew, how bout it? 
(and I can be stone cold...hehehe) 
October 24th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Stevey,
Hey. To quote Eminem (as loosely and as horribly as I do Hebrews 13:17
) “I am who you say I am.” However, my dad was never an apostle.
A couple things; one, I don’t believe these things because SGM told me too. You give SGM too much mind-controlling power. I believe these things because it is what I believe the Bible teaches. What I mean by “many smart, dedicated scholars” is all the people, in all the translations, that have intrepertated “obey” to be the best word to describe what the author of Hebrews is saying. And like I said, people are wrong, maybe it’s not. Maybe it means we should be in a constant state of debate with our leaders, until they persuade us they’re right, if they ever do. Even if it does, however, it is clear throughout Scripture that we are to (as Bereans, with out own conscience’s, studying of Scripture, never blindly agreeing with whatever our leaders decide to say) submit to our leaders, yield to their leadershipt, not be a burden etc. etc.
“SGM teaches that leaders are to be obeyed almost without questioning.” I guess we all have our opinions
.
October 24th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
a-
*big big hugs to you* I decided to stay out of this one this time since the harsh ignorance and black-and-white SGM problem solvers approach to eating disorders, and mental illness in general, just tends to get me so riled up… But you always have such an incredibly compassionate heart and did an amazing job defending the injured. Thank you for always being there and bringing some much-needed sunshine to my days.
October 24th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Steve420,
Yes we grew up and VA and are now in FLA, and no dad was never on the apostolic team. He was involved in the formation of PDI as a founding member. And of course we are coming from a biased perspective because of this. We try to be as objective as we can though, and to believe what we believe because we are convinced by Scripture. I am pretty convinced that Heb 13:17 means that we should have a heart that is easily led by my leaders in the church. Not using that as an excuse to avoid searching the Scriptures myself, and not to the degree that I never question what I hear. By the way, the apostles wife you are talking about is has a very slight build to this day, I would describe her as slight or petite…so the whole jealousy thing wouldn’t make too much sense. (which, if I may throw it out there, when things like that are thrown out there and discussed, and they are completely hypothetical and not based on much other than a guess…it does nothing but make it easy to for folks to write this site off. I mention it because everyone here is adamant that there isn’t gossip and slander going. So I wanted to mention that everyone might want to be careful of speculated of the motivations of someone’s heart who you don’t know in a situation you were not apart of. I am not trying to bash anyone or anything like…I’m just sayin.)
October 24th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Stevey,
Hey. To quote Eminem (as loosely and as horribly as I do Hebrews 13:17 ) “I am who you say I am.” However, my dad was never an apostle.
A couple things; one, I don’t believe these things because SGM told me too. You give SGM too much mind-controlling power. I believe these things because it is what I believe the Bible teaches. What I mean by “many smart, dedicated scholars” is all the people, in all the translations, that have intrepertated “obey” to be the best word to describe what the author of Hebrews is saying. And like I said, people are wrong, maybe it’s not. Maybe it means we should be in a constant state of debate with our leaders, until they persuade us they’re right, if they ever do. Even if it does, however, it is clear throughout Scripture that we are to (as Bereans, with out own conscience’s, studying of Scripture, never blindly agreeing with whatever our leaders decide to say) submit to our leaders, yield to their leadershipt, not be a burden etc. etc.
“SGM teaches that leaders are to be obeyed almost without questioning.” I guess we all have our opinions .
Also can I just humbly request that we be super careful before we ascribe jealousy as motives for people that we don’t even know? The idea that the “apostle’s wife” was jealous of someones figure and therefore decided to accuse her of anorexia, while soap operish and fascinating, can’t be known for sure, therefore it seems counterproductive to just say it as if it’s true.
Just throwing it out there.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Steve,
Men have NO IDEA just how devious and mean-spirited women can be to one another. Jealousy is indeed a “monster.” It’s something we have to keep in check.
“Mean girls/women” is a term every American girl/woman is familiar with. The church is not exempt…you will find them alive and well there.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Joey,
>>>We have been around in a circle and probably aren’t going to agree on the specifics. Which is fine. And I think the point about the leaders being servant leaders is a good one, and when combined with a flocked who is “easily persuaded” or whatever rendering you choose for that verse…makes for a good relationship between pastors and members. – Joey, to Michael and Steve240
Thanks for acknowledging that. The point I would make is, it is very easy to read into a verse something that is not there, especially people who take things literally without questioning–thinking that is the spiritual thing to do. The Bible, and especially this verse in Hebrews, is not written directly to modern American believers. It is in the context of a totally different language, culture, and place in history, and also within the whole message of Jesus. If you don’t attempt to understand each of those when interpreting a single verse or passage, then almost assuredly there will be misunderstandings.
Steve is interpreting it as it relates to original language. I was as trying to do it as it relates to other things Jesus taught. There is also culture and history to take into account. In other words, when the author wrote “obey [be persuaded by] your leaders,” did he really mean when the leaders say “jump,” the followers should say “how high?”? Did he really mean members should conform their life to what leaders command, in terms of child rearing, doctrines to believe, involvement in an organized church, care groups, church discipline, youth group, where to live, what to wear, and whether they or their teenager should get a body piercing?
Wouldn’t you agree that, however one translates this verse, it has the potential for being misused to control people?
October 24th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
…and the “comparison game” is not limited to looks.
Many women feel inferior when compared to the image of “biblical womanhood” portrayed on the Mahaney ladies’ blog.
October 24th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
“Wouldn’t you agree that, however one translates this verse, it has the potential for being misused to control people?”
Yep…
October 24th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Hello All! It has been a while since I popped in to read up on everything, but as usual Kris has another great topic of discussion. I realize that I am jumping into this particular discussion a little late however; I can’t help but make a few comments :-)
Though it may seem a simply stated – I love what Sidney said in #4 – The gospel truly is simple and for so long [even after leaving SGM] I have wondered why SGM is persistant about making everything so complicated. If you ask me, I think that the beauty of the gospel is its simplicity. God intended for even little children to be able to understand the gospel and yet SGM makes it so complicated. Twisting it and contorting it to meet their wants not the needs of the members of the church. Very frustrating if you ask me.
The other thing that I wanted to briefly comment about is the whole journaling thing. I personally spend hours upon hours writing and journaling and you know what – I have found that I am able to say the things that I wouldn’t say in person, I am able to work through things that are stressing me out and I am able to be myself. No one else reads what I write, yet I somehow feel liberated and am more at ease when I am through. And someone mentioned in a previous post that Psalms were probably a result of David’s “journaling” – but can I add … isn’t a lot of the Bible and scripture and such from peoples’ “journals”??? Hmmm … Job for instance. Someone wrote about what happened to him – Am I right? I would encourage people to write in a journal, not condemn them for spending too much time alone and writing. It really makes me mad because its obvious that someone who is spending that much time alone and has other issues going on needs help and comfort and support not condemnation for writing too much. Do they actually think that they are helping the situation??? I mean seriously! [deep breath]
Sorry y’all I read all this stuff and my gears get to moving real quick. I think I rant on here more than I make any sense. :-) It just really makes me sad and upset to hear that God’s children who so desperately need support and comfort are being condemned and treated like they are “sinning”. Ugh! Thanks for listening :-) God Bless!
Platy, good to “see” you hope you are well :-)
October 24th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
…this is true, AKS.
“Cas” (the one of whom we are speaking) had (and has) quite the attractive, fun-loving, people attracting personality. Which would be an asset if one was involved in leadership. And if I remember correctly, her personality wasn’t appreciated to its fullest extent by the previously mentioned eating disorder diagnosing apostle’s wife.
October 24th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Ellie said:
“…this is true, AKS.
“Cas” (the one of whom we are speaking) had (and has) quite the attractive, fun-loving, people attracting personality. Which would be an asset if one was involved in leadership. And if I remember correctly, her personality wasn’t appreciated to its fullest extent by the previously mentioned eating disorder diagnosing apostle’s wife.”
That is sad if that was another motivation of this “apostle’s” wife in her deciding to diagnose and treat “anorexia” in Casualty. It is also sad that this “apostle” didn’t do a better job of monitoring the situation.
October 24th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Let us all suppose for right now that CJ/SGM is 100% totally correct about their interpretation of submission and obedience to leaders and what it looks like.
Let us then draw a parallel with submission in marriage. Let us suppose a husband is 100% correct in what he thinks about how his wife should submit to him and respect him.
Let me tell you something that is also 100% correct….the minute you open your mouth about what anybody owes you or what you have right to expect from others, you suddenly are 100% wrong. Not in bible exegesis of the greek word submit, but in attitude and focus.
The husband needs to focus on how he can sacrifcially lay down his life for his wife, and how he can live with her in an understanding way. He does NOT need to tell her she should be submitting.
The wife does not need to be nagging him to be more understanding and sacrifical. The wife (not the husband) needs to focus on how she can be more serving, respectful and submissive.
Likewise, pastors need to be focused on how they can guard the flock and feed the flock and lay down their life for the sheep. The pastors are not to stand up front and start telling the sheep to submit all the time. They are to be praying and fellowshiping in such a way that they grasp God’s heart for what the sheep need in sermons and counseling and so forth. They are to be with the sheep- with them, not aloof-right there in their lives caring about them. When that happens, people automatically want to submit and look to the pastor. Who doesn’t want a truly caring, sacrifical, godly pastor? I know what it is like to have a pastor like that, we’ve had a few. We loved and honored them with all our hearts, and they NEVER- not once- had to tell the church to submit. It happened automatically; people were cheerful in service.
This is like the most basic rule of counseling. You tell the person in front of you where they need to change, not where the other person needs to change. You tell the person where they need to serve and give, and not what they have right to expect from other people. You tell a husband to lay down his life, and tell the wife to submit. You don’t tell a husband that he sure has an independent stubborn wife and to set her straight, and you don’t tell the wife that she is married to a lazy wimp and needs to nag him to be a real man. You direct the person to their own need to change themself.
Even if SGM has the bible exegesis of the word right (which I do not think they do) they still have the subject all wrong. The mere fact they have to keep focusing on this from the pulpit means they are wrong. CJ came to my church in the 90s and literally berated people with these verses, almost yelling at the church. If things are so bad that you have to do that, try pointing the finger at yourself.
Early in our marriage my husband was whining to God about me not being submissive. God spoke to him to start putting me ahead of himself, and he vowed in that moment to lay down his life for me. He didn’t tell me anything for months, but he said I changed overnight, it was incredible. Somehow I may have sensed on some invisible intuitive level his change, or perhaps God broke through in me after he faced his own selfishness. I don’t know for sure, but I do know that if leaders have to keep telling people to submit, then the leaders have a problem. Adult believers are not little kids, and it is time they were treated as fellow heirs of God’s grace.
October 24th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
5years. That was one MAGNIFICENT post. Truly.
October 24th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Well, it is late..I should be asleep. Lawrence, I was wondering if you were still missing my point, but thats ok.
Its just I have seen in my X Sovereing Grace church, well meaning christians slinging “the truth of the Gospel” around that really hurt alot of people. Especially the youth.
I know who you are, and joey and lawrence, you guys, you are my brothers. I need your prayers as much as you have mine. Thanks guys.
October 24th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Michael,
Sup brah! I’m going to take the liberty of answering your question for Joey before he does
.
I think of course context, and what the instruction would have meant to the original audience is important in regards to understanding what it means for us today. But I also think the Word of God is just as important and just as powerful for us today as it was for people in it’s day. It is as piercing a sword today as it was then. And I don’t think that living in America excepts us from applying Hebrews 13:17. Jesus meant for the twelve to turn the other cheek, but he also meant for us to do so as well.
October 24th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
A,
I’m sorry if I’ve missed your point, my mom always says I don’t listen good enough
. Haha, I wish I knew who your were, but “A” doesn’t really leave me any hints or clues, unless by being your “brothers” your actually related to me. Which would be shocking. But I definitely appreciate your prayers!!
October 24th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
Joey said:
“By the way, the apostles wife you are talking about is has a very slight build to this day, I would describe her as slight or petite…so the whole jealousy thing wouldn’t make too much sense. (which, if I may throw it out there, when things like that are thrown out there and discussed, and they are completely hypothetical and not based on much other than a guess…it does nothing but make it easy to for folks to write this site off. I mention it because everyone here is adamant that there isn’t gossip and slander going.”
Interesting you know about who this was referring to. If you knew this, I am surprised that you never brought this to this “apostle’s” attention when it was mentioned multiple times before on this blog. I understand he claimed ignorance.
I am glad that you at least are acknowledging that this abuse did happen.
From what I understand this “apostle’s” wife took great pride when the woman she “treated” for anorexia got up to a size 10 which was the dress size the apostle’s wife was at. The “treated” was woman was originally a size 6 but ballooned up to a size 10 from this “treatment.” Thus from what little I know about women’s dress sizes it doesn’t sound like this apostle’s wife was that large (they say the average is now 12). She was just wanting to bring someone up to her size. ;-)
I guess it is harder for people to believe that figure issues was the motivator (including yourself) that since this “apostle’s” wife didn’t have that much of a weight problem . Thus maybe what Ellie said about this apostle’s wife being jealous of this other woman’s looks and personality was the motivator? Only God really knows.
Either way it is quite a sad story especially this being someone higher up in leadership who allowed this type of abuse to happen. It really doesn’t speak well of SGM. Who knows what other kind of abuse could occur within SGM by other leaders if an “apostle” and his wife set this kind of an example. IMO it gives credibility to the other reports you read on this and other blogs.
Maybe the way SGM/Mahaney teach Hebrews 13:17 lead to this kind of assumption of authority and abuse?
This apostle’s wife had no training in this field and was basically practicing medicine without a license. This “apostle’s” wife assumed way too much in so many ways. As I said before, even most medical people wouldn’t diagnose and treat someone for anorexia unless they had specialized training.
Thanks for your correction about the abuser’s body size. ;-)
October 25th, 2009 at 7:14 am
Joey and Lawrence,
I, too, appreciate the respectful way in which the two of you dialogue with us here. Thank you.
I guess my question would be, how do you defend the accusations that Hebrews 13:17 is used within SGM for control purposes, similar to how it was used in the shepherding movement?
If you do an advanced google search on “Hebrews 13″ and “shepherding movement”, hundreds of sites will pop up on the abuse of the verse, many describing the very abuse described on this site.
And remember, the accounts here represent a large percentage of SGM’s “family of churches,” they’re not isolated to just a few churches.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Hi, everybody…
We’ve had lots going on over the past couple of days, so I haven’t been able to participate as much as I would have liked in the discussion. But really, I only have a thought or two to add anyway.
First of all, while the discussion of whether “submit and obey” means, literally, “submit and obey” is quite fascinating, my original question to Joey and Lawrence was whether or not they believed it was their duty to “make their pastors happy.”
See, I think that we can concede the whole “obey and submit” thing and still assert that CJ’s message really misses the mark because he misunderstands just what is meant by the phrase, “And let them [leaders] do this with joy…”
Just whose responsibility IS the whole “joy” thing, anyway?
Is it – as CJ would teach – primarily the church members’ responsibility to behave in such a way so as to “make” their pastors happy?
Or is it – as I would assert, and as would be consistent with EVERYTHING ELSE that SGM teaches on “happiness” – the pastors’ own responsibility to RESPOND with joy in their leadership role, no matter what sorts of behaviors are thrown at them?
I guess I just find the whole statement of, “God wants happy pastors,” along with the other componant – “It’s YOUR responsibility to make this happen, people” – to be false and wrong and COMPLETELY inconsistent with what SGM would say to anyone else about any other situation.
Why are pastors some sort of special privileged class in the SGM world, that they get to hold others responsible for their “happiness”?
Forget “obey and submit.” This “happiness” thing is what’s REALLY ludicrous.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
And as far as the whole spirit of the “obey and submit” debate goes, 5yearsinPDI ROCKED THE HOUSE with comment #62!
Really, nothing more needs to be said. 5years said it all.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
I had this thought about discussing motives.
Something I’ve noticed is that frequently, when the subject of what is motivating someone to behave the way they behave comes up, people will jump in to admonish us and say that we should not be speculating about a person’s motives.
They point out – correctly, of course – that we cannot know for certain what is in the person’s heart. We cannot judge their intentions.
So, they say, we should not try to ascribe motives to them.
I don’t know about this one.
In many ways, I think it’s sort of strange.
I mean, is it better to leave “motive” out of the discussion entirely? For instance, would it be better to just assume that the “apostle’s” wife discussed above was simply crazy in her actions over the supposed case of anorexia?
Is that somehow more kind, more loving, more gracious?
I actually find it easier to extend grace to someone if I can cast around in my imagination for some sort of REASON for why they did what they did.
And I think it’s not such an impossible thing, for people here to remember that when we talk about “motives,” it’s always still only speculation and not fact.
October 25th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Of course the Word of God is just as important and just as powerful for us today as it was for people “in it’s day”, ESPECIALLY when we have a more thorough understanding of what, how, when, why, and the context. Take for example, the “turning the other cheek” passage. It means something much different than being a “doormat” for abuse.
From PublicChristian.com:
A commentor further clarified:
http://www.publicchristian.com/?p=39
October 25th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Thank you for the nice comments.
I was amazed at what happened this morning in the sovereignty of God. I went to church and the sermon turned out to be from 1 Timothy 3 about elders. He talked about the character God demands from leaders and what true Christlike leadership is. It was 180 degrees opposite from the SGM submission pulpit speeches.
“If you want to be God, it means you get crucified”. I thought that was a great line. If you want to be a leader it means suffering for the sake of the church. I was sitting there listening, with this thread so fresh in my mind, and I literally wanted to weep for SGM and how off the wall and backwards they have it with their attitude.
Is it any wonder that people in my church love and honor the pastor without ever being told they must? He isn’t perfect (and neither is my husband, imagine that) but you naturally respond with respect to those who are unselfish and sacrificial.
I do think these blogs are so helpful for those in, leaving, or recovering from intrusive and abusive or demanding authority. I pray that they recover and end up close to the Lord and in a decent church. It can be such a lonely feeling when you first leave, and the stuggle with accusing fear of being rebellious or proud can be strong. Keep up the good work posting!!!
October 25th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
5yearsinPDI,
Great response to the “obey your leaders” question!
Kris,
You make a good point about whose responsibility it is to respond with joy. No one should be responsible for another person’s joy.
Lawrence and Joey,
There is a principal of hermeneutics that applies here:
The Bible can’t mean something for us today that it didn’t mean for the original audience.
If the original audience understood Jesus’ teaching to “turn the other cheek” as a universal act of love (which obviously they did), then it applies to modern Americans. But if the author of Hebrews’ audience did not envision a hierarchy of pastors in an institutional church imposing specific behaviors on church members, then we shouldn’t either. If the original intention was not to make followers responsible for leaders being joyful, then we shouldn’t put that responsibility on followers.
It’s not living in America that exempts us, but what the original intention of the passage that either makes us responsible or exempts us.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Kris
With regard to your comment about the motive of the “apostle’s” wife “treating” this woman for cancer I think in terms of competency and motives as making it easier to extend grace to someone.
For example if I hear about a trained surgeon’s operation not going well I find it easier to extend grace than if some 1st year resident or untrained person attempted a medical operation that they were clearly had no training for. The first year resident or other under trained person might have thought they had the right motives but were clearly doing something they shouldn’t be doing. This first year resident assumed way to much about their skills etc.
Similarly this “apostle’s” wife at best attempted to “treat” someone for anorexia that she had no training in (besides what she read in a book).
Thus even if this “apostle’s” wife had pure motives (which really doesn’t even seem to be the case) she assumed way too much about herself and her qualifications to “treat” this woman.
One other thought I have on this is the story you hear that happens some places where the boss’s secretary starts to think that she is the boss. This could be another reason for this “apostle’s” wife thinking she had the kind of authority to do what she did.
Sadly it appears that this is another abuse that SGM isn’t really going to address. It kind of reminds me of Noel’s story.
October 25th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Lawrenced said:
“Also can I just humbly request that we be super careful before we ascribe jealousy as motives for people that we don’t even know? The idea that the “apostle’s wife” was jealous of someones figure and therefore decided to accuse her of anorexia, while soap operish and fascinating, can’t be known for sure, therefore it seems counterproductive to just say it as if it’s true.”
You bring up a good point about making sure you don’t represent some speculation like this as true. God may only know what motivated this “apostle’s” wife.
I speculate at different motivations since I shake my head as to what would motivate someone to do what she did. Hearing of the circumstances, I can’t see how this wife could have pure motives doing what she did. I just wonder what really motivated her to do an act of abuse under the guise of supposedly helping someone.
Based on your comments it appears that you and your brother aren’t questioning that this wife did this act but just aren’t sure of her motives. If that is the case, what have you done to try to get SGM to address this abuse (especially when it was first brought up on this blog)? Also, what has SGM done such as soul searching to try and prevent something like this from happening again?
Also, shouldn’t this “apostle” and his wife have been trying to seek forgiveness and reconciliation with this person? Certainly someone reading this blog from SGM would have brought this to this “apostle’s” attention including yourself.
October 25th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Steve,
I can totally understand why you continue to have concerns about “SGM Casualty’s” story. I actually dug it up from the archives awhile back and featured it as a post because I do share your belief that what happened to Casualty was especially grievous.
I’m starting to feel a little bit uncomfortable, though, with the questions for Joey and Lawrence about what they’ve personally done to address Casualty’s situation. I can make an educated guess that Casualty herself would prefer that we let it rest.
(Now, if the “apostle’s” wife ever came around – that’d be another story.
)
October 25th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
(Now, if the “apostle’s” wife ever came around – that’d be another story.
)
Hehe…count me in on that one!!
October 25th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Hi all,
I just wanted to post. Hope it is not to far off topic, but always relative to being a Sovereign Grace ministries Survivor.
Well I went to a yard sale yesterday. It was a benefit sale for a 3 year old with cancer. I spoke to the grandfather of this child and let them know I would remember their family in prayer. The grandfather asked…so are you a christian, and I said YES! Then the grandfather asked how do you know you are a christian, and I said “well, I confessed my sin to the Lord, and acknowledged my need for Jesus Christ.” I said, “I Love the Lord so much, and He has been so good to me”…Then the man asked…what church do you go to…(I didn’t want to tell him of the whole Sovereign grace ministry debockle and go into detail of how the “local” body of Christians really hurt and disillusioned so many including myself..) So I told him the truth, “well right now I’m not really going to church”
He said, well then I would have to seriously question your salvation…….? So…are the prayers for your grand daughter invalid now or something…
People are a trip. Christians are even trippier. I left the sale, like I usually left Sovereign Grace, before I altogether quit going, condemned as a believer. Something about that is not right..
So for the record, I do love the Lord. Alot.
October 25th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Oh, little a. I am so sorry to hear that he would say that to you.
((a))
October 25th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
a,
I’m sorry you had to hear that from a fellow believer. Hold your head high. This is a common view that most churches espouse, that you must be involved in a local church or else you are not pleasing God… in this case that your salvation is questioned. This is pure legalism. Ignore it. It’s Pharisaical. Loving the Lord and your heart is what counts. As far as fellowship goes, although it may be more practical, you don’t have to go to an organized church to get fellowship.
October 25th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
a,
You are the church, we are the church that Jesus died for. I agree with Michael, the response you got from the guy at the yard sale was legalistic. Jesus died for the individual and he died to make a people for His own possession, the church. Paul tells us to “not forsake the assembling of yourselves together,” and in Acts we are informed that the people who were being added to the church were meeting from house to house and day by day. There’s a lot of room in there for different expressions of “church.” Having said that, I believe the Bible does make a case for us having fellowship in some consistent way with others who know us and and we know them for the purpose of encouraging and building each other up. I hope you find that place.
October 26th, 2009 at 12:13 am
a, I’m so sorry! Michael, what would make you think the yard sale guy was a believer? a said that she had placed her faith in Jesus, which is the biblical definition of a saved believer. a could have turned the question around on him.
Although, he might have been totally stressed out by his granddaughter’s illness, so grace is called for.
Here’s the thing about joy–it is part of the fruit of the Spirit. If you lead a joyless life, pastor X, you need to confess that, and seek to be filled with the joy of the Lord. No one else can give us joy, apart from our marvelous Saviour!
October 26th, 2009 at 9:40 am
Just wanted to pop in and say sorry I can’t respond to every point made by everyone here…it would just take too long. I wanted to just briefly comment on a couple of things.
“I’m starting to feel a little bit uncomfortable, though, with the questions for Joey and Lawrence about what they’ve personally done to address Casualty’s situation. I can make an educated guess that Casualty herself would prefer that we let it rest.” Kris
Just wanted to say thanks for that.
As far as the motives discussion goes, one thing you guys left out in that discussion was the idea of charitable judgments. I would agree with the idea that ascribing motives is typically better than ascribing insanity…I would just don’t think that means we have to assume sinful motives.
I liked several of the points that 5 made. Which is why it is typically a member of the apostolic team who like to preach the Heb 13 message, not the pastors. They serve the pastors by taking away the awkward job of preaching what we believe the bible says about how to respond to leaders. That fits in nicely with 5′s point analogy of the husband not needing to be the one telling his wife to submit.
Here’s the thing though. I don’t agree with this “the minute you open your mouth about what anybody owes you or what you have right to expect from others, you suddenly are 100% wrong.” There are plenty of scenarios where I can remind someone of what I have right to expect from them. If I let someone borrow something of mine, and after the agreed upon time I still don’t have it back, I can remind them of their duty to return what is mine. Obviously I could do it with a bad attitude, and that would be wrong, but there is nothing inherently wrong with reminding someone of a responsibility they have to me. I do it, and have it done to me, at work all the time. In the parent/child relationship it is a parents duty to teach their children that they owe and a have a right to honor and respect. To not teach them that would be harmful because it would be denying the child an opportunity to learn how to please God and reap blessing from it.
In the same way, if Scripture teaches that relationship of the churches’ leaders with those they lead should be one where the leaders lay down their lives as servants and are going to held to a stricter account before God…and that those they lead should be easy to lead and have the desire to make their leaders jobs joyful ones, then someone needs to teach that. It should not be neglected because it have the appearance of being self serving.
Anyways, thanks for not tossing me and Lawrence out on our ears. We aren’t very good at the whole lurking thing as you can tell. When we pop in we can’t help but jump in. Probably something we should work on
October 26th, 2009 at 10:03 am
RT,
>>Michael, what would make you think the yard sale guy was a believer?
Because the comment he made: “Then I seriously question your salvation.” Unbelievers don’t usually question someone’s salvation. Plus “a” said “Christians are trippier.” And, this one is personal. I’ve had people question my standing with God because I dont’ attend church anymore.
Mack,
I like the way you put it and totally agree.
October 26th, 2009 at 10:09 am
joey,
you said: >>Here’s the thing though. I don’t agree with this “the minute you open your mouth about what anybody owes you or what you have right to expect from others, you suddenly are 100% wrong.”
I agree with you. It depends on the situation and how you do it. Jesus said “when a brother sins, go tell him…” and check the log in your own eye and THEN help the other with his eye… so there’s definately a place for telling others your rights. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be able to defend ourselves from spiritual, emotional, or physical abuse.
October 26th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
joey said:
“As far as the motives discussion goes, one thing you guys left out in that discussion was the idea of charitable judgments. I would agree with the idea that ascribing motives is typically better than ascribing insanity…I would just don’t think that means we have to assume sinful motives.”
joey
As I tried to say before, I have a hard time believing that this “apostle’s” wife could truly have a charitable motive with as egregious and unqualified that she was to do what she did. She might have in her mind been able to justify what she did as charitable but deep down I am sure she had some wicked motive in doing what she did.
Another thought on her motives is that a lot of people enjoy the feel of power over someone else. That is true especially if someone is insecure as one poster indicated that this “apostle’s” wife indicated she was. I am sure there are a number of reasons that could explain why she abused her power and acted as if she was confident to do what she did. One always wonders why one does something like this.
Jared Mellinger who as I am sure you know pastors your Philadelphia SGM Church gave a message that spoke on I Thes. 2. He talked about a pastor needing to follow the role that Paul talks about in that passage and not go around “wearing” Hebr 13:17 on their shirt. Though I am skeptical that he even practices what he taught there, if more leaders in SGM balanced this message with the message Mahaney teaches on Hebrews 13:17 then there would probably be a better balance on the view of pastoral “authority” within SGM. There would be more onus on pastors to practice what I Thes 2 teaches and not just what Hebrews 13:17 teaches.
October 26th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Steve420,
Believe it or not, I would estimate that for every time I have heard anything about Heb 13, or the idea of submit and obey and be a blessing to your leader…I have heard 50 times over the pastors humbly admit to mistakes, sins, being hard to follow, being surprised anyone would follow, etc etc.
That doesn’t even count how many times people in our church are singled out and thanked for serving behind the scenes, or for being pillars in the church in various ways. Now, either you won’t believe that, or you will ascribe to it false humility, because you couldn’t believe that they are sincere and still think the things you do about their abuses. But I’ve seen it.
The focus here has been on the one message CJ gave. I have been at my current SGM church for 9 years and not one message on Heb 13:17 has been given, unless it was given at one of the meetings I missed. Do you know how many times I’ve heard the pastors describe the unbiblical separation of the clergy vs laity? Lots of times. One message recently at my church had as one of its main points that there is no such thing as a sacred calling vs a secular calling. Etc, etc. I could go on.
October 26th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
re: Michael’s comment.
I think there are many in the visible church who are not truly believers. The Pharisees were an example of that sort of person. I beg to differ with your assumption: Pharisees are ALWAYS interested in others’ salvation. And they ALWAYS define salvation with works: do you attend a certain church, do your children behave, do you homeschool, do you use a certain translation, do you dress a certain way, do you court…..
If my dear friend a’s garage sale man told her she was not saved because she did not attend a church service on Sunday, then I highly doubt he himself was a believer. He very well may be a Pharisee.
(Although if my beloved grandchild was deathly ill, I might just join him, so grace is the rule here.)
We can only know truth from the Scriptures. The Bible says that man looks on the outside, God looks on the heart.
The Bible says that we confess with our mouths Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts God raised him from the dead to be converted.
I guess this is what drives me insane about many SGM quirks: they are legalism. Too many of my SGM friends makes lists of behaviors, instead of testifying to the saving grace of God, when asked to define their faith.
Just like a’s garage sale guy.
October 26th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
joey said (about me):
“I have heard 50 times over the pastors humbly admit to mistakes, sins, being hard to follow, being surprised anyone would follow, etc etc.
That doesn’t even count how many times people in our church are singled out and thanked for serving behind the scenes, or for being pillars in the church in various ways. Now, either you won’t believe that, or you will ascribe to it false humility, because you couldn’t believe that they are sincere and still think the things you do about their abuses. But I’ve seen it.”
previously said (to all):
“As far as the motives discussion goes, one thing you guys left out in that discussion was the idea of charitable judgments. I would agree with the idea that ascribing motives is typically better than ascribing insanity…I would just don’t think that means we have to assume sinful motives.”
I guess it is wrong to assume sinful motives but not wrong to make assumptions about what I think. ;-)
I am glad to hear you indicate that there isn’t a big emphasis on the Hebr 13:17 and the submission to pastoral authority at your SGM Church. My point is that if Mahaney is going to teach what he teaches he should balance this with teaching from I Thes 2. Mahaney should also emphasize to the pastors another portion of this verse in Hebrews that they are to lead reminding that one day they will give an account to God for what they did.
Come to think of it, have you ever heard Mahaney teach a message to the pastors reminding them they will give an account? With all these reports of abuse that Mahaney and other SGM leaders don’t appear to be taking that seriously one would be left wondering if Mahaney truly believes that passage. Talk about a performance review that he and other pastors in SGM will have one day.
On the subject of pastors admitting their mistakes, what one typically hears is pastors admitting relatively trivial sins; sins that are almost insignificant. One doesn’t hear about pastors including C.J. Mahaney telling about majors sins or mistakes they made despite his and other pastors’ claims that they are the worst sinner they know. Hearing about only these type of confessions, it is easy to question just how transparent these leaders truly are and thus their sincerity. I have even more issues with this apparent superficiality when I hear of how much confession is expected of regular members at care group meetings.
Hopefully this gives you an idea of my thoughts in this area.
If things are different in your SGM Church where your dad is a pastor or maybe even the Sr. Pastor(?) I am glad to hear this.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
RT,
Perhaps you’re right, the person was a Pharisee. That must mean there are a lot of Pharisees in the church as you say >>>they ALWAYS define salvation with works: do you attend a certain church, do your children behave, do you homeschool, do you use a certain translation, do you dress a certain way, do you court…..
There’s tons of people in the church like this, with varying gradations of how legalistic they are. I was just making the point that a’s accuser was in tune with religious questions and terms so he was probably in the church, but yes, I suppose that doesn’t guarantee they are a true believer. Good clarification.
October 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
RT,
Here’s a good rule of thumb:
“Live such a free and joyous life that “uptight Christians”* doubt your salvation.” – Steve Brown
* substitute “Pharisees” for “uptight Christians” as applies.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
I hate it when the admonition to make charitable judgements is used to shut intelligent conversation down and encourage people to check their brains at the door.
(OK, I don’t know for a fact that that is the motive, but it sure seems that way to me.)
Making a charitable judgement, in my opinion, doesn’t mean being a simpleton who thinks that of course the other person has good motives and never considers other possibilities.
I do think that you can certainly use your brain to suspect that other’s motives may be “sinful”. Especially when the reported facts are hard to interpret in any other way. But making a charitable judgement means (to me, anyway) that you hold your suspicions loosely unless you ask the person and actually find out.
I also think, that in a public forum, we can express what we think, using words like “it seems”, “It appears”, “in my opinion”, etc. about what appears to be going on based on the facts that we have been presented with.
I appreciate all of your comments and insights!