People send me stuff.
Thought-provoking stuff.
The other day, someone – an individual who is still part of a Sovereign Grace church but is having serious questions about some things he’s observing in the organization – emailed me this:
Kris,
I was reading the Signs You May Be Covering For A Pastor Who Abuses The Flock Spiritually article. I especially noticed #19.
19. You don’t like to admit it, but you often spend more time thinking (whether positively, negatively or both) about your pastor or leaders than you do about God.
I would like to add the word “church” to #19 because I’ve noticed that my friends from my SG church talk a LOT about their church.
This is very noticeable if I go to my Facebook and look at their status updates. It is very common for my SG friends to make mention of their church in their status updates.
I have other Christian friends who don’t attend my SG church. I’ve noticed that most of them rarely mention their churches in their status updates. My SG friends, on the other hand, say something church-related all the time.
I am beginning to think that this is a sign of an unhealthy emphasis. I’d be interested in hearing your opinion.
It was a rather timely email, as I happened to be having a conversation with another of my correspondents about this very same thing. This other correspondent had actually copied and pasted several of her friends’ Facebook status updates into an email and sent them to me. When read in quick succession, I had to agree that these updates all started to sound pretty bizarre…as though SGMers on Facebook were mindless drones whose only real passion was to use Facebook to lure more people into joining SGM. Here are a couple of samples (note - these are fictional, but highly similar to actual updates):
Sally Sovereign Grace is SOOOOOO GRATEFUL for her church! And SOOOOO glad that Sunday went so well!!
Sam Sovereign Grace LOVES his church. Thank God for Godly pastors.
Out of curiosity, I looked at the status updates of my own Facebook friends, most of whom ARE Christians and ARE involved in churches – just non-SGM churches. And sure enough, while many of them had mentioned God or Jesus or a particular Bible verse, not a one had gushed about his or her non-SGM church.
I thought this whole thing was rather fascinating. What do y’all think?
November 15th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
I was in the church for 3 years particularly during college and finally had the courage despite threats of excomm to leave
November 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
About CJ’s T4G promo video…
Kindred, thanks for posting the link.
I was wondering, what do people think of all the “humility” talk?
To me, it’s rather extraordinary. I’ve never seen another Christian leader manage to call so much attention to himself. Even though it’s done through self-denigration, the bottom line of all his “humble-speak” is that the focus is still on CJ himself.
In the end, all that “worst sinner I know” garbage demonstrates the OPPOSITE of humility.
It’s always been my understanding, growing up in “normal” Christianity, that true humility is about self-forgetfulness.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Thanks, delta!
But, when did you leave SGM? How many years ago has it been since you left?
I’m asking because I know that quite a few SGM defenders will want to say that a lot of what you describe – particularly the “wisdom worker” spanking tool – isn’t promoted in SGM anymore.
November 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
“I was wondering, what do people think of all the “humility” talk?”
Yeah, I was wondering that, too. Surely it’s got to strike even current SGMers as odd.
I felt the video was quite revealing…in many respects. And it’s current!!
November 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
A kindred,
You really make me laugh, I saw that video weeks ago and because I still can’t figure the link thing, it just made me sick. Thank you for connecting it here. I love the current illistrations on the weirdness of Sovereign grace Ministries and everyone exclaims…we are changing…please we are changing. The humility talk is creepy, but I am today currently fed up with the “what you do and don’t deserve lashings.” A message so called restorative in nature on the subject of “adoption” which was NEVER SPOKE OF EVER, (only sinner, sinner sinner) was reciently preached. But then you leave the message horribly condemened because…WE DON’T DESERVE ADOPTION. Go figure, they don’t get it. That is white washed gospel preaching. We are not going to emphasize that your a sinner, we are just going to emphasize that you DON’t deserve adoption.
But isn’t God good? Is HE?
November 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
liz4cps said:
“Please pray for CJ. I think he’s hurting because these blogs are calling him out. I’m not saying he should be given a pass, but nothing’s simple.”
CJ sure doesn’t look like he’s “hurting” in that video.
liz, if you’re reading, please know I am NOT picking on you by quoting you. I TOTALLY understand what you were saying in your comment. We SHOULD be praying for CJ, and I feel most folks on the blogs do. CJ just didn’t appear to have been affected by the blogs in that video. And the video is current.
November 15th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I agree kindred. Some SVG leaders are hurting right now but its not because they grieve for the wrong they have done. I have heard a few leaders who have commented on the blogs and they all laugh it off as if this is all lies ( trust me though, inside they are not laughing ).
November 15th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
*pokes head in briefly* I wanted to weigh on the “humility” issue.
It was actually my first therapist *gasp, shudder* who really got me to understand that true humility is a long way from what SGM teaches. We were in the middle of a tearful session, fairly early into things while I was still heavily invested in SGM, and I was trying to explain to her how depressed I was. I described the strain within my family at the time, which I felt was all due to my sinful eating disorder and ungratefulness for my parents’ direction and my lack of joy in god… Basically, how from my seat, every problem in the family was a direct result of my sin.
As I slowed down, narrative deteriorating into more tears, I looked at Laurie for some sort of affirmation. Instead she said, “Wow… Do you realize what a convoluted form of arrogance that is? It’s like you’re so determined of your valuelessness that, in order to feel ANY sense of worth, you take credit for every bad thing that ever happens to you. So at least you make some sort of a difference.”
In the same way that eating disorders are often a way of taking power over SOMETHING when feeling totally out of control (even though it ultimately leads to further powerlessness as the eating disorder saps your strength and health), pride can get convoluted into claiming responsibility for everything bad. It’s like a black sheep syndrome of sorts. :-p
November 15th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Hey, Platy -
Sounds like your counselor was pretty wise.
I’m thinking this topic of pseudo-humility might make an interesting topic all on its own.
November 15th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
I left beginning of 2008 and as far as I knew when I left they were still selling them, however it wasnt a vocal thing, it was sold more discreetly in the church offices. They were at least where I went still telling stories of kids lined outside the door for sometimes almost the entirety of the day going in and out for spankings and I was even given CD’s to listen and learn from on proper discipline ie when to and when not to etc…
November 15th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
delta,
Thanks so much for clarifying.
OK, all you SGM defenders out there reading here – what do you have to say about one of the churches in your
denominationfamily of churches selling a spanking implement? A leather whip?For all SGM’s concern about lawsuits, this little factoid just blows me away.
Mind you, I’m NOT necessarily arguing against spanking as ONE of the tools available to parents as they raise their children. But it just seems like SGM’s style of parenting really overemphasizes spanking.
November 15th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
SGMsingle,
I thought the whole “floorboard from the basketball court” in the video and it “reminding him of his pre-conversion days, and presumably of his pre-conversion sins” was weird.
I’m familiar with CJ’s testimony, but you somewhat get the impression that to do even the healthy fun stuff that typical teenagers engage in is considered “wasting your life.”
November 15th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Kris,
I am absolutely disgusted that children are being treated so badly in SGM. IMHO, there is NEVER a reason to use anything leather to whip/spank children.
I have a vivid image in my mind of a dad who lived two doors down from me when I was small. He would LITERALLY hold his son in the air by his ankles and whip him with his belt as hard as he could. The son didn’t turn out very well. It was a different time, but if I saw this happen today, I would immediately call child protective services.
I fear there is some serious damage being done to the children in SGM. The TRUTH WILL COME OUT!!!
November 15th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
While I do think they go overboard in about every thing they do, I dont think I could go as far as calling social services on them. After all they do have really good and sound ways to discipline the children unlike what you probably saw Wanda. I remember every time the subject brought up it was always greatly laid out never to do it in anger and the process took awhile because it involved a lot of discussing the error with the kid at fault as well as getting them to see and admit to what they did, as well as to every now and then show mercy and grace and not spank. I do believe in a parents right to discipline through spanking, however I witnessed many times that it wasnt very effective and the child would know it would hurt for a brief moment but would go and repeat the transgression later because there were no lasting repercussions. The thing is SGM is all about the cookie cutter model. What works for one family doesnt always work for another, I would even go as far to say what works for one particular child doesnt work for another child in the same family, but SGM doesnt like to recognize individuality. My friend and I use to joke that it was the stepford wife approach. I know my church before I left was implementing or was going to implement a program where they had the pastors do check ups on you before you got married to determine whether you and your future spouse were “ready”, after you married, when you were pregnant, right after the baby, so forth and so forth. I dont want government intrusion in my life that much let alone a church…
November 15th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Delta5940,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Just wondering whether you have children yourself yet.
It sounds like you don’t think there is any real possibility that children being raised in SGM might be abused by their parents. With so much focus on first-time obedience in Sovereign Grace churches to make the congregations look appealing to those on the outside, I believe there is the likelihood that some parents could be taking spanking too far.
Sometimes the government is the last resort for children who are being mistreated (like the little boy I described from my childhood). Who will step in and protect abused children like him if not the government?
November 15th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Wanda,
I whole heartedly agree with you that there is a very real and very scary possibiilty that people within the church take the teachings too far. I think I was blessed to be around parents who took their job and callings very seriously when it came to disciplining their kids. However I would be naive to say that people dont already take an overly inflated subject and run with it. I saw the same with homeschooling. I support homeschooling when done correctly but I saw people almost seeminly coerced or guilted into homeschooling their kids and so their solution was to put their kids in front of a tv all day and watch someone else teaching their kids. Or on the flip side people who wanted to buy acres of land together in the countryside of town and have their own secluded kind of homeschool thing going on with two or so families. I think that there are people who already take things to an extreme naturally and when you put them in an environment where they take any of SGM teachings be it spanking, courting, homeschooling, etc which are already so extreme, you are asking for distaster. Unfortunately the way the church’s seem to handle the situations I dont know if there would ever be a real or fair assessment of the damage that is actually done. My guess is that it would be done through their “peacmaker” kind of ways…
November 15th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Oh and no I dont have children yet so I guess the saying about taking everything with a grain of salt applies very much here. These are only my observations from watching and helping care for kids within my former SGM church so I’m fully aware that a lot of my knowledge and understanding is def lacking as far as the experience goes for my previous statements
November 15th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Delta5940,
Thank you for taking the time to communicate with me here. I have never been in SGM, but I’ve been following this blog for almost a year and a half, and I am VERY CONCERNED about the children been raised in Sovereign Grace churches.
FYI — I am 50 years old and have two daughters who are 20 and 17. I homeschooled them for 4 years in the elementary grades and then my husband and I enrolled them in a wonderful Christian school for the rest of their schooling. Both are strong Christians.
My motherly instincts are kicking in BIG TIME, and I am terribly concerned about the well-being of children being raised in SGM. Did you know that some SGM churches have followed the Ezzo method of child rearing in the past (see the Wikipedia article on Sovereign Grace Ministries)?
I believe there is a conflict of interest between the pastoral staff and the children in SGM. The pastors expect parents in their congregation to enforce first time obedience so that this “family of churches” will look attractive to the outside world — church growth is the name of the game! When parents are overly controlled by the church leadership, I don’t believe they will always do what is best for their own children. In a cult-like organization, this reality is sad but true.
November 15th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Wanda,
I think something we need to keep in mind is that the problem with SGM’s approach to child-rearing isn’t necessarily whether or not they suggest spanking as ONE potential tool for parents. Rather, it’s as Delta says – that SGM has been known to advocate a one-size-fits-all approach, where spanking is viewed as THE “biblical” way to discipline, to the neglect of other strategies.
We can err in the other direction, too, though, if we make sweeping, one-size-fits-all statements about the evils of spanking that aren’t accurate.
Like, it sounds as though so far, you’ve managed to raise two lovely daughters who have turned out very well. It sounds to me as though you did not use any sort of physical discipline with them.
But part of the reason why your approach worked with your daughters may have had more to do with your daughters’ unique personalities, and not so much with your approach. If – hypothetically speaking – you would now adopt a very strong-willed son and try those same methods, it’s fully possible that you’d eventually find yourself placing frantic phone calls to find yourself a “wisdom worker.”
(That was a joke…for the most part…)
In other words, what I’m trying to say is that not all spanking is of the brutal, abusive type that you saw your neighbor engage in. And not all kids respond exactly the same way to the same kinds of discipline. What works for meek and pliable children may not work for your passionate and intensely strong-willed kid.
The issue isn’t spanking, per se. It’s SGM’s advocating spanking as pretty much the ONLY way. That’s what makes me scared for SGM’s children…not that some of ‘em may have gotten swatted on the rear end once in awhile…but that those children were raised in an environment where EVERY infraction received swats on the rear because parents are taught to think that swats are “biblical” while other approaches are not.
November 15th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
My siblings and I got our little bottoms spanked. And I spanked a few bottoms of my own.
I’m happy to report that everyone turned out just fine.
There was no instruction on “how to” or “when” – the punishment simply fit the crime.
November 15th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
I was raised in a family that was not Sovereign Grace, and believed in spanking. I was spanked as part of a line up, so that all would remember the offense, I was spanked with a shoe, a belt and a switch..One of my parents died when I was very young and you know what I remember…being loved. I remember laughing in the line up, being kissed after the belt, and getting a treat just to remember how much I was loved. But I don’t think that is what these kids are getting. There is a hugh difference.
In my state a child has legal rights to be educated. If I called DCF and said could you investigate this childs education…..well there would be a case. If I was to make this call…what about the bruises?
November 15th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Kris,
Hope you know how much I appreciate your ministry here.
Actually, I did spank my daughters when they were young, but I didn’t use any of the devices that Sovereign Grace Ministries seems to advocate — leather straps (or whatever it is that they have in their church offices) or glue sticks (so they won’t leave marks) Egads!!!
I’ll admit that I spanked sparingly (and never in anger) because I’m one of the fortunate parents who has obedient children, praise God! My children learned at an early age that when they were disobedient that they would lose privileges, which I found to be more effective than spanking as they got older.
I totally understand what you mean by a one-size-fits-all approach to discipling children in SGM, and it makes me very sad. Our children are gifts from God, and each one is unique and extremely special!
Keep up the good work!
November 16th, 2009 at 12:44 am
I know I’ve said this before-but the pressure to spank at every infraction (ie -first time obedience)and the group pressure to do so in a particular way (leather belt, glue sticks) is what I find so alarming.
In my experience with SG-they pretty much defined all discipline as spanking. I had a pastor’s wife tell me that I needed to start spanking my son before he was 9 months old. She explained that he needed to understand his sinful heart was the reason he had disobeyed. I knew of others that spanked children for crying or kicking while changing a diaper (you know-it had to be a heart issue…I’m sure it couldn’t have been diaper rash)….the fact that I bought into this makes me sick now.
If you are spanking a child before they can walk or talk….you need to stop-for their sake and yours. You are flirting with abusive discipline-even if you aren’t spanking in anger.
Delta-thanks for posting your story
November 16th, 2009 at 6:42 am
Musicman,
That’s a good example of just how messed up SGM’s “heart issue” teachings are. They misuse it, and abuse it.
I cringe when I hear the phrase “heart issue” now.
Btw, I’ve known a few folks that popped their children as young as 6 months.
Oh…I’m also sad to report that there’s a new crop of young Christian parents buying into the Ezzo’s teaching. When SGM and the other churches that have promoted such don’t stand up and admit they were wrong, this is what happens.
November 16th, 2009 at 7:44 am
On the subject of spanking, it is sad how others have shared that SGM seems to have a “one size fits” all mentality.
Someone earlier shared that with spanking it can teach that the consequences of disbedience are immediated but very short. If that is the only type of punishment used, then it could give children the wrong understanding about consequences etc.
Say if a child does something wrong and is spanked for it vs. not allowed to do something they really wanted to do then the spanking teaches the child that the consequences are only immediate vs. other punishments that show there are more long term consequences to their actions. When children enter the real world, more long term effects of sin is more along the line of what happens vs. just short term that spanking shows. Look at Israel in the desert. Their sin of unbelief caused them to wonder through the desert for 40 years and a generation not to enter the promised land.
Thus there can be reasons to use both types of punishment and not just spanking.
November 16th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Curious as to this blog is calling out ‘Signs you may be covering for a pastor who abuses the flock spiritually’ and with the leaders “who have commented on the blogs and they all laugh it off as if this is all lies”….do we know how many former Caregroup leaders, Leaders in the church, PC Students, or former members of the congregation have posted or are posting on the site?
I wonder if we started revealing our identities if they’d have a harder time calling us all lairs?
November 16th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Wow playtpus,
Your not the only one who was a victim of bad counseling. I have first hand knowledge of someone who was molested and upon going into counseling with a well known SGM pastor was told to look at their own sin in the matter. The pastor went as far to say that abused party was just as much a sinner as the abuser ( let me say the courts didnt look at it that way because the abuser went to prison). It goes on from their and I wish I could be more specific.
Also I have wondered why since SGM discourages outside therapists, psychologist ect , why do they not send some of their own to school to get professional training? These members for years have been kept from getting much needed professional attention and the negative affects of this will last these people lifetimes.
Again what if a female in the movement needs special counseling, counseling she is not comfortable doing with a male? Is her only option going to her care group leaders wife who has no training whatsoever? Does anyone know if SGM employees women or keeps them on staff for these purposes ? I have found women make great doctors, psychiatrists ect. and can help men and women in ways men cant. Im a male and would go to a male for professional help but I am educated enough to see the need for both.
November 16th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
About the spanking. Yes at least where I from some members in SVG still buy tools that are specifically used for spanking and sold solely for that purpose. I am not aware to the extent this happens. I do know they get this implement from some homeschooling scene. I have seen it ( to be honest this was about a year ago) and what is not funny is it is sold under a different name so as to protect the buyer and seller from legal implications.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:48 am
Sorry to be slow replying; been busy elsewhere!
About CJ hurting, I agree with AKS (#106) that he did not appear to be hurting there. I think of him as I remember him years ago, joyfully jumping from verse to verse talking about what they mean — not well organized but real.
The teachings I’ve heard from him more recently seem to have an edge that wasn’t there before. They’re better organized but much more repetitive and not nearly the same content. He laughs at his own jokes in a way he didn’t before. He laughs in a way he didn’t before. I don’t know; he just seems different, and it makes me think he’s hurting.
And, yes, pray for the kids and parents, too. I once startled one of the moms — she asked me how I knew what my son thought, and I just said I asked him. It worries me when something that simple could be that surprising.
It all makes me sad… Do pray for CJ, though; if nothing changes at the top, nothing is likely to change in the rest.