In our discussion about the trend of SGMers’ using their Facebook status to make breathless declarations about the wonders of their Sovereign Grace churches, someone brought up the way that many of his SGM friends also use these Facebook blurbs to talk about their sinfulness and struggles with pride.
Sally Sovereign Grace is grateful for God’s grace because she is the worst sinner she knows.
Sam Sovereign Grace is battling his pride today.
That got me to thinking about the subject of humility, and how “normal” (non-Sovereign Grace Ministries) Christians work toward being more humble.
You see, in non-SGM Christianity, such outspoken declarations about one’s humility or pride are definitely not the norm…and yet I don’t believe that non-SGM Christians are particularly more prideful or less humble than the Christians in Sovereign Grace churches.
In fact, I’d venture to say that the very act of calling attention to one’s prideful condition – or the very act of making frequent statements about one’s “worst sinner” status as a way to be more humble – would, in the non-SGM Christian world, be viewed as counter-productive to attaining more of the virtue of humility.
Why, you ask?
Well, in the non-SGM Christian world where I come from, at least, true humility is basically defined as self-forgetfulness.
And the bottom line of all that chatter about your own “worst sinner” status, your own struggles with pride, your own lack of humility, simply cannot be self-forgetfulness.
Instead, all you’re doing is drawing further attention to yourself.
The Christians I’ve known who have exhibited the most humility have been those who do what Paul tells the Philippians to do:
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
— Philippians 2:3-7
That passage tells us that Jesus “made Himself nothing.” How do we, as humans, follow His example? How do we GENUINELY and HONESTLY ”make ourselves nothing”?
Do we do this by forever sounding off about what bad sinners we are? Do we make a point out of introducing ourselves as the “worst sinners we know”? Do we ramble on about our sinful pride and our lack of humility to anyone who will listen?
Is that really “making ourselves nothing”?
I would respectfully submit to you that it is not.
I would suggest instead that such talk actually produces the opposite effect.
After all, the end result of blathering on about oneself – whether one is celebrating one’s accomplishments or bemoaning one’s own badness – is that one is simply drawing attention to oneself.
Think about this the next time you hear one of your leaders rambling on about his own uselessness or worthlessness before he gets into his actual teaching. Or when your pastor and the “apostolic” guest speaker are trading “humorous” put-downs during your pastor’s introduction of said guest speaker.
At first blush, such an introduction might seem to make the leader sound like he’s really humble – that he really doesn’t think much of himself. But interestingly enough, guess what the leader has done with such remarks? Yep. He’s actually made you think about him MORE, rather than LESS.
Sorry, folks, but that’s not “making himself nothing” – that’s making himself the center of your attention.
And when you make similar statements in your Facebook status, you’re doing the very same thing. You’re just calling attention to yourself. Sure, it may be (on the surface, at least) negative attention. But it’s attention nonetheless.
So the next time you’re feeling convicted of the sin of pride – the next time you want to pursue humility – a good place to start would be by shutting up about your big bad sinful self. Whether you’re on Facebook, or whether you’re just chattering on in front of cameras or from behind a pulpit, every time you direct people’s attention – positive OR negative attention - to yourself, you’re doing something that demonstrates the opposite of true humility.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Missus – I’d bet you a case of Rogaine and a few whipping rods that you’d lose that bet…
November 18th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Guy – you’re on.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
In fact, I’ll bet Kris spends more time thinking about sgm than I do.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Considering the distressing stories she receives hourly, you’re probably right. But that’s got nothing to do with thinking about Jesus, now does it?
November 18th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for sharing everyone.
>>>But a good deal of it is just going through the motions, just engaging in repeating stock phrases because they think that this is what a humble person DOES.
>>>In other words – SGMers have been taught that “true worship” or “passionate worship” will look a certain way…will be comprised of certain outward behaviors.
>>>So instead of encouraging a couple to spend some time alone together… and figure out if they even LIKE each other first, courtship demands that a young man jump through a bunch of hoops to impress…
I’m convinced that the reason SGM gets so hung up on these things is because they are so obsessed with performance-oriented Christianity–proving your spirituality, maturity, obedience, faith, etc. through what one does, how one behaves, and how many hoops one jumps through. Rather than just let “love” be the sign of discipleship, they insist that a host of outward signs must be seen.
In my experience, this is not exclusive to SGM. It is prevalent in many other churches I attended, however, SGM has made it into an art form.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
To continue with some random thoughts about “normal” Christianity versus SGM Christianity:
19. In “normal” Christianity, humility is seen and not heard.
20. In “normal” Christianity, small-group Bible studies are encouraged, rather than tightly controlled or outright discouraged.
21. In “normal” Christianity, the “serving” part of one’s Christian life may or may not have to do specifically with one’s church. In SGM Christianity, “serving” is nearly ALWAYS about how one helps out in one’s church.
22. In “normal” Christianity, singing the song Friend of God would not be considered “theoligically incorrect” (and therefore not permitted).
23. In “normal” Christianity, people are not so automatically defensive about their particular denominational leaders and practices.
24. In “normal” Christianity, one is not discouraged by one’s church leaders from moving to a town not serviced by a church from one’s
denominationfamily of churches.25. In “normal” Christianity, an organization that functions precisely like a denomination wouldn’t be so crazed about avoiding the term “denomination.”
———
more to follow, I’m sure.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Kris,
Great list! #18 sums it up… just add a few more words:
>>>In “normal” Christianity, church leaders have a basic faith in the Holy Spirit’s working in their members’ lives and therefore don’t feel the need to micro-manage what their members read and think…
AND how they worship, where they get fellowship, how much they give, what they wear, how they look, how they raise their kids, what doctrines they do and do not believe, how they interpret the Bible, how they choose a mate, whether they drink… etc., etc.
SGM-style churches focus on ensuring members fit a particular Christian mold–the way they define it–rather than on allowing “love be the fulfillment of the law [works].”
November 18th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
I noticed in the SGM church I attended that among the die hards, there were those I would describe as quintessential SGM’ers who also carved out for themselves a sense of uniqueness that they used in an effort to be “in” SGM but not entirely “of” SGM. It was like a way to protect their egos from becoming too bruised by the realization that they were actually stool pigeons, but they felt as though they had more power by assuming they were a little better than the other stool pigeons.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Just catching up here…but, in the meantime, I have only one comment:
“obfuscate”
Man! That’s a Bill O’Reilly word.
I’m gonna look it up now…
;)
November 18th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Wow, The Missus,
I wish you’d post a link to your blog so I can stop on over and bash you like you bashed the owner of this blog.
Just sayin’
Sidney
November 18th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Haha…Claireon!
You size ‘em up well.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
I didn’t bash anyone. I merely made a fairly obvious point.
This blog is basically Kris’s job. Practically anyone who has a job probably thinks about their job more than they think about Jesus. I know that’s true in my case.
I do have a blog. Feel free to stop by and bash away.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
And that’s where you’re wrong again…
November 18th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
A simple question for any and all. Is it not possible to be a christian who attends a SGM church and not be a “SGM”er with all of the things that name implies to the folks here?
Chuck
November 18th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Chuck- let me clarify something.
It is very easy for people who come out of cult like churches, or ones with abusive authority, to reject nearly everything. Anything that reminds one of the abuser pulls a trigger and is rejected. I’ve seen people here struggling with things that are generally good- for example books by John Piper or Grudem or Tripp or Ken Sande or CCEF- because there is some SGM association at conferences or on boards, etc. It is normal, but not good, to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
So, I posted what I did about Jonathan Edwards to affirm that it is good for us to realize how sinful we are, and how wretched we are in the light of God’s perfection, and that without the robes of righteousness from Jesus Christ, we are stained and fallen. I don’t want to see anybody here overreact and start parading around like some faith movement preacher pronouncing arrogantly that he is just like God. We are NOT just like God and we ARE sinners.
That said, CJ is not Edwards. Have you read Religious Affections? Have you ever read an Edwards bio like the one by Marsden or Iain Murray? Let me repeat this- CJ is not Edwards. Edwards had a grasp of God’s love and glory that most of us barely have tasted, and he was given to fervent lengthly prayer. He is often considered to be the greatest American theologian ever, and ranked with men like Calvin and John Owen.
Edwards wrote that passage one time in one book. I thought, and still think, that it is important for all of us to not reject the validity of seeing our total depravity in and of ourselves apart from Jesus. I don’t want CJ to cause an overreaction in people here. But in posting it, please do not think I think CJ is another Edwards (he is NOT), and please do not use my post to justify the very valid concerns that Kris is raising about true humility and the mantras chanted at SGM. I think Kris is very perceptive and right with her observations.
November 18th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
5yrs,
Thanks. Sorry I didn’t mean to offend or to misrepresent you. I thought about putting in a disclaimer about the whole CJ thing, and I guess I should have. That being said, for the record It was not my intent to equate CJ with Edwards. That would rightly earn me some of the titles used here regarding SGM defenders. I am not here to defend CJ, I’m not a “CJ Disciple”, “blind follower” or any such thing. I began posting here (rather rudely at first) in response to things being said that simply are not true of the church I attend. In my comments about the “worst sinner” I was attempting to address the baby and the bathwater thing, that’s all. I haven’t read Religious Affections but I was given a multi-volume set of his sermons a few years back and have enjoyed what I have read of that.
And, for what it’s worth I get the whole mantra thing. I was discussing that very issue recently with some friends from church. It’s easy to say things flippantly because that’s what everyone else in your “tribe” says. I see that as a problem. We are not changed by great truths simply because we articulate them often or even well.
The danger, I think, is trying to fit a certain mold in all of the areas listed on this thread and thinking that if we look, walk and talk like we have it together, then we do. Ultimately there are no short cuts to spiritual growth.
Chuck
November 18th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Missus,
Actually you can hold a job and still be constantly thinking of Jesus. Most jobs that I’ve had I remember the verse in the bible that directs us to work not as if working for man but as if working for God. I keep that close in everything I did and do in my jobs. The gospel can transcend into every aspect of your life like your attitude, your work, etc and be glorifying to Heavenly Father and give him the glory and honor in the day. It took me awhile after leaving SGM church to learn this and understand it, but my goodliness and such has nothing to do with the number of times I think of Jesus directly nor how many scriptures I can memorize and so forth. It comes through how I live my life. Jesus didnt die for me so I can be an obsessed stalker of him and God. He died and lives so that I can learn to become like him and live my life and be a christian through my example and attitude, not merely by my thoughts and words. Not to say thats what you’re doing or anything but I think your accusation that Kris doesnt think of Jesus as much as she does SGM and etc, well you are pretty much judging her without a correct understanding of the service this blog does for people. I think you kind of showed the point that is being made on this topic; that SGMers feel a need to tell the world of their spiritualness and humility. Why defend it? We should live our lives in such a way that shows others God and what he has done for us with his only begotten son. If God speaks to us not through the fire or the wind or the earthquake but rather as a whisper, the still small voice why do we assume we have to be as loud as possible?
November 18th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
“The Missus” -
How much I do or do not think about Jesus is…well…it’s yet another red herring.
I mean, let’s just assume, for a moment, that I’m this terrible pagan who NEVER thinks about Jesus. (And all y’all – do keep in mind – this is just a hypothetical “for instance.”) But let’s just assume that I’m a non-Christian.
Would my lack of thinking about Jesus make ANYTHING said here any less true?
Would my lack of proper Christian faith change the FACTS about SGM?
Along those same lines, even if YOU thought about Jesus all the live-long day, it wouldn’t change a thing about SGM.
Red herring.
November 18th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
As my husband has said on this site before – your statements are too broad, too all-inclusive and assume too much about what people who happen to be members of sgm churches think and feel. I do most assuredly object to statements along the lines of “sgm people are this way”, “sgm people think this or that”, “sgm people live their lives as though a, b, or c”.
Time has not stood still since you left your sgm church. Time, age, raising children, world events and the faithfulness of God are all acting on my particular church in various ways. I assume that’s true of practically any church. These days, I can hardly find anyone in my church who still quotes CJ or thinks that sgm knows what its doing on any front. I can’t remember the last time I heard anyone in my church say anything positive about sgm. As far as I’m concerned the consensus is that there is room for improvement. This is just my opinion alone, but I think that now that so many of us are middle-aged, we’re just over that whole “sgm is wonderful and our leaders are perfect” mindset. I know I am.
Go ahead – ask me anything on any topic. I guarantee, you won’t get the answer you expect.
November 18th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Claireon,
What do you mean by “stool pigeon”? Usually this means a police informer.
Do you mean that SGMers dupe their friends? Do you mean that that are “informers” to pastors?
November 18th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
I’m intrigued by the “how much Kris thinks about Jesus” comments. Walking with Him is minute by minute, not just day by day — and within a Christian mindset we take every thought captive to Jesus…
Soooo, I’d submit that thinking about SGM and thinking about Jesus are not mutually exclusive and can easily be one and the same.
The Missus: it’s hard to read “tone” within a blog, since we can’t physically hear each other’s voices, and all of us are not gifted writers. But your comments came across to me as catty potshots. I don’t see any benefit in a “who thinks more about Jesus” contest.
The question, “do you find yourself thinking more about your church than about Jesus”, in my view, might be re-phrased something like “Are you more involved in organized Christianity (churchianity) than in personal intimacy with Christ?” And I believe that one can be answered “yes” by MANY Christians even in “normal” churches.
Kris — your list is amazing, and in my very long association with PDI/SGM, very accurate. I’ve been surprised over and over again since reading here, that the issues that bothered me through the years also bothered others.
Guy — love the way you came to your wife’s defense!
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
5 Year said:
“That said, CJ is not Edwards. Have you read Religious Affections? Have you ever read an Edwards bio like the one by Marsden or Iain Murray? Let me repeat this- CJ is not Edwards. Edwards had a grasp of God’s love and glory that most of us barely have tasted, and he was given to fervent lengthly prayer. He is often considered to be the greatest American theologian ever, and ranked with men like Calvin and John Owen.”
It has been discussed before, but people have shared that C.J. Mahaney grew up with an alcoholic father. That could very well be the cause of Mahaney not appreciating or really even grasping the father heart of God. Growing up with an alcoholic dad could definitely skew one’s perception of that. Sadly as C.J. goes and leans is how SGM goes and leans.
That certainly could explain C.J.’s apparent distorted view on God and His love for His children.
Just a thought.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Chuck- thank you for the kind reply. And for the record, there was much good and much blessing in my own time back in PDI, now SGM.
I thought back then (90s) that the real problem was CJ. I now think that many leaders the past decade made a bad choice, and that was to enable him in wrongdoing, and now the problem is much bigger than one guy.
I can imagine that many newer churches, or those far less under his sphere of influence, can simply want to be part of a group with sound doctrine and the gifts of the spirit and accountability. All good motives. And God will bless those churches and pastors and people. At some point I think they will be forced to face some hard truths though, and if things don’t change there will be two options- leave, or come under the spell and be an enabling clone.
Steve, a huge percent of people had terrible childhoods and terrible dads. It is one reason why the strong authority figures out there gain so many followers desperate for approval. And a desire to control/have respect fills a void that love should fill in the spiritual fathers, who never felt respected and never could control the abuse. You are correct. Textbook patterns here.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Hi SGMsingle,
What I mean is that SGM’ers are more or less beholden to SGM leadership, as instructed. Some of those who have been in the longest think that having inside information, or providing inside information, puts them on a par above others. This seems particularly true of those in Care Group leadership.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:54 am
SGMs asked, “Do you mean that SGMers dupe their friends? Do you mean that that are “informers” to pastors?”
Although I think Claireon already explained the intent of the term “stool pigeon,” and although my experience was that “SG common-folk” generally DON’T “dupe their friends, “I’d assert that an “informer” IS what a CGL becomes when private, confidential info, shared in friendship, is then “reported,” to the pastor. I have experienced this personally, and there was NO sin involved, just info that I wanted held for a time. The time was very short. I WAS duped.
In Normal Christianity: A friend doesn’t take private info that their friend asks to have kept in confidence,and report it to the pastor, particularly not without permission to share it,(unless perhaps someone is in peril.)
Somehow the “role” of Care Group Leader trumps “friendship.” Gossip is no longer gossip when the info is shared with a pastor, by a CGL.
Certain roles, such as CGL in SG can provide an insulating sense that they have some authority in their church, which in reality they don’t have,because the only authority is the pastor.
November 19th, 2009 at 10:25 am
The Missus,
It’s been my observation that most CW members are a very “loyal, obedient, by-the-book” bunch.
Has MC recanted from the pulpit directly to the members on all the issues of concern cited on the blogs that have taken place at CW?
November 19th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Who are you talking about when you say, “most CW members are a very “loyal, obedient, by-the-book” bunch”?
November 19th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Obviously, I’m not going to name names.
“Most” means the “the majority; the greater part of; the larger amount.” “Observation” means “the act of noticing.”
It has been *MY* observation that *MOST* CW members are a very “loyal, obedient, by-the-book” bunch. That is a statement based on what I’ve personally seen and experienced over the years.
I’m sure you’ve been waiting for my reply so that you can tell me that that doesn’t apply to you, your family, or your CW friends, and that you disagree with my statement. That’s fine. That’s *YOUR* observation.
But *MY* observation has been that “most/the greater part of/the majority” of CW members are a very “loyal, obedient, by-the-book” bunch.
Now…has MC recanted?
November 21st, 2009 at 7:53 pm
5yearsinPDI,
I really like what you said here – November 18th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
I didn’t have a loving relationship with my dad and he was very controlling; it took me years to realize this about him. I had to have help from my pastor (yes at SGM) in order to keep my own desire for a loving relationship with my dad to keep from tearing my marriage apart. After coming through that issues with my dad I’ve been freed from many of the legalistic tendancies in my SGM church – I can’t say all since I’m sure there are some of which I am unaware.
Something that I have been more sensitive to since I’ve been reading on this site is legalism in my church. This motivates me like the verse, “zeal for yur house consumes me”. We’ve brought up concerns to our pastors in the past and will be even more diligent to do so in the future.
We have been encouraged to see God working in our church; recently our senior pastor in the sunday meeting apologized for his leadership in allowing practices to become principles.
December 9th, 2009 at 12:37 am
I was looking for an article like this. Thank you so much for writing it. I’ve hated that false humility everyone in SGM shows.