Yesterday, a reader (“The Missus”) took me to task for saying that “normal” Christianity is different from the Christianity practiced by most people who are members of Sovereign Grace Ministries churches. Her comment got me to thinking – maybe it’d be interesting to list the ways that SGMers’ practice of the Christian faith is different from that of other churches. These are just the first “oddities” or “abnormalities” that popped into my head. They are listed in no order of importance.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: please note, I am NOT saying that these things in and of themselves are necessarily WRONG. They’re just odd. Of course, when you put a bunch of oddities together, it does make for a picture that raises a lot of questions.
So here we go. Again – in no particular order:
WAYS THAT SGM CHRISTIANS DIFFER FROM “NORMAL” CHRISTIANS
- “Normal” Christians do not view the planting of more of their own denomination’s churches as “missions.”
- Consequently, “normal” Christians would think it quite odd to be asked to take a career setback or lose money on real estate or uproot their families in order to participate in such a church plant, particularly if said church plant were in a location that was already saturated with good Bible-believing, gospel-proclaiming churches.
- “Normal” Christians are more focused on Jesus than they are on their church organization.
- “Normal” Christians refer to Jesus primarily as “Jesus” and not as “The Savior.” Listen to any sound file of any SGM pastor, and you will typically hear very little mention of Jesus by His name. Instead, you will hear Him referred to primarily by one of His roles. (Again – this isn’t necessarily WRONG…but I believe it has a lot of implications.)
- “Normal” Christians do not claim to be “Reformed” while at the same time believe that there are modern-day “apostles.”
- “Normal” Christians would not accept it if their church leaders decided to change longstanding leaders’ titles to something more politically correct without some sort of explanation to (or better yet, some sort of input from) the people. (And yes, I’m referring to the term “apostle,” which SGM has apparently decided is not Reformed Big Dog-friendly enough. Or something. Maybe CJ realized that God does not actually speak directly to him these days? I don’t know. But those guys at the top aren’t “apostles” any more. Go figure.)
- In “normal” Christianity, it would be really odd to be able to travel across the country, attend another church from your denomination, and know that you will be doing everything in basically the exact same way that you would in your home church, even down to the strange little “intermission” between the worship time and the sermon.
- Oops. In “normal” Christianity, when the pastor gets up to talk on a Sunday morning, what he says is typically called a “sermon.” In SGM, that word is deliberately avoided, so that what the pastor says is called a “teaching.” Or “message,” if someone is slipping a little in his SGMese.
- Likewise, in “normal” Christianity, when a congregation shows up at church on Sunday, that is called a “service,” as in “church service.” In SGM, it is called a “meeting.” More to the point – it’s called a “mee-Ting,” with a peculiar accent given to the “t,” so as to sound precisely like the way that CJ pronounces the word. Sometimes this Sunday time is also referred to as a “gathering.” But almost never a “church service.”
- Along those same lines, in “normal” Christianity, it is typical for your pastor to speak like all the other pastors that live in the region where he was born and raised. In SGM, however, no matter where you attend your SGM church, you can bet that your pastor will sound exactly like CJ Mahaney in his accent and enunciation, no matter where he might have been born and raised. Likewise, your pastor will mimic CJ’s presentation style, with strange rushes of words tumbling out, followed by cackling at his own jokes, followed by frequent unpredictable dramatic pauses.
- In “normal” Christianity, the phrase “governed by a plurality of elders” typically means that a church makes major decisions through “elders” – men who in some way are representatives of the rest of the congregation. The implication is typically that these men are selected through some sort of voting or nomination process. In SGM Christianity, this phrase actually means “governed by paid staff pastors or other men who were privately selected by the paid staff pastors.”
- In “normal” Christianity, commonly accepted Christian terms (see “elder” above, in #11) are not redefined to mean something else in order to cloud outsiders’ perceptions of what is really going on.
- In “normal” Christianity, people are not afraid to express their honest opinions of what their pastors do. Sometimes what they think will be positive. Sometimes it won’t be. But there’s no fear of recrimination for expression of one’s honest thoughts and opinions.
- In “normal” Christianity, one will – just like Jesus Himself did – have people who are closer to one, more intimate with one, and then others who are not so close, not so intimate. In “normal” Christianity, the intimate friends are the ones with the freedom to offer one correction or to “make observations” about things that one might need to work on or change. It is NOT normal, in “normal” Christianity, for one to strip oneself emotionally and spiritually naked around any and all other church members, just because they’re members of the same church. It is NOT normal, in “normal Christianity,” to approach someone not in your intimate circle and offer that person “observations” or correction.
- In “normal” Christianity, being “Charismatic” is defined as actively teaching and actively and openly pursuing the more “dramatic” gifts of the Spirit, such as speaking in tongues. In SGM Christianity, however, “Charismatic” seems to mean whatever SGM has decided won’t offend the Reformed Big Dogs. In SGM, speaking in tongues, for example, is not actively taught against, of course, but it is also no longer taught as something to be pursued or practiced openly.
- In “normal” Christianity, people do not automatically read whatever their leaders are reading. In fact, people typically won’t know what their leaders are reading and really won’t care.
- And that brings up another thing. In “normal” Christianity, one would not feel odd to openly cart around a “non-approved” book in front of one’s leaders…because in “normal” Christianity, there is no such thing as an UNAPPROVED book!
- In “normal” Christianity, church leaders have a basic faith in the Holy Spirit’s working in their members’ lives and therefore don’t feel the need to micro-manage what their members read and think.
- In “normal” Christianity, members think for themselves. They do not automatically look to their pastors for the final word on an issue.
- In “normal” Christianity, humility is seen and not heard.
- In “normal” Christianity, small-group Bible studies are encouraged, rather than tightly controlled or outright discouraged.
- In “normal” Christianity, the “serving” part of one’s Christian life may or may not have to do specifically with one’s church. In SGM Christianity, “serving” is nearly ALWAYS about how one helps out in one’s church.
- In “normal” Christianity, singing songs like Friend of God would not be considered “theoligically incorrect” (and therefore not permitted).
- In “normal” Christianity, people are not so automatically defensive about their particular denominational leaders and practices.
- In “normal” Christianity, one is not discouraged by one’s church leaders from moving to a town not serviced by a church from one’s denomination family of churches.
- In “normal” Christianity, an organization that functions precisely like a denomination wouldn’t be so crazed about avoiding the term “denomination.”
- In “normal” Christianity, pastors are not taught to distrust the mental health profession. In “normal” Christianity, church members are not taught that their pastors are supposed to function as their only source of “reliable” counsel no matter what the problem might be. In “normal” Christianity, a pastor wouldn’t dream of trying to help a church member manage his or her psychiatric medications, such as anti-depressants. In “normal” Christianity, there is not an automatic bias against such medications.
- In “normal” Christianity, pastors will typically obtain undergraduate degrees and then go on to spend years in seminary. In SGM Christianity, pastors receive 9 months of training at SGM’s so-called Pastors College. No undergraduate degree is required. Theoretically, it’s possible for a man – particularly if he is the son of someone in SGM leadership – to end up a Sovereign Grace pastor with no education other than a homeschool diploma and those 9 months of Pastors College. Then he could be unleashed to “watch over your soul,” weighing in on your personal problems – large or small – and even perhaps helping you to manage your use of psychiatric prescription drugs like anti-depressants.
- In “normal” Christianity, a man would not train men to be the primary watchdogs of their daughters’ modesty. Instead, such detailed and potentially embarrassing teachings would be given to women by a woman, so that mothers could help their daughters in this department. In ”normal” Christianity, men would not so eagerly blame a woman’s female form for his lust issues. “Normal” men do not consider seatbelts or purse straps to be particularly kinky or lust-inducing.
- In “normal” Christianity, one is not asked, as a condition for church membership, to sign away one’s right to expect confidentiality in pastoral counseling situations. As stated before, in “normal” Christianity, one’s pastors are not one’s ONLY source of counseling in the first place, as is the case in SGM. But to add insult to injury, in SGM, not only are members taught that non-church-approved counseling is suspect – members are also then made to understand that their pastors are free to share whatever they wish with anyone whom they deem to be “part of the problem or part of the solution.” This is NOT normal in “normal” Christianity.
- In “normal” Christianity, a church’s history would not be revised to make it seem like one of the denomination family of churches’ founders had never existed.
- Along those same lines, in “normal” Christianity, the departure of such a key founder would be addressed and explained openly and fully – and not vaguely - so that no mystery would linger for over a decade.
- In “normal” Christianity, if one ponders leaving one’s church, one’s first reaction is not FEAR.
- Similarly, in “normal” Christianity, if one decides that one needs to leave one’s church, one does NOT need an “exit strategy” in order to avoid being talked about, disciplined, black-listed, or otherwise made to feel bad.
- In “normal” Christianity, pastors would never consider attempting to make church discipline extend beyond the doors of their own churches. “Normal” pastors would not expect other churches to abide by their recommendations and refuse communion or membership to their former members. “Normal” pastors would never consider phoning a former member’s new pastor to tattle on the former member. In “normal” Christianity, such a move would be considered gossip.
- In “normal” Christianity, one would not be placed under such binding and frightening church discipline for non-provable “sins of the heart” like pride. Rather, in “normal” Christianity, church discipline is reserved for clear and documentable sins such as ongoing adultery.
- In “normal” Christianity, one is free to explain why one left one’s church without being accused of gossip or slander.
- And in “normal” Christianity, one does not fear losing all one’s lifelong friendships simply because one has chosen to attend another church.
- In “normal” Christianity, there is not a set of unspoken rules that govern what is REALLY considered acceptable (and necessary, if one has dreams of someday being in leadership).
- In “normal” Christianity, a single verse of scripture read at the beginning of a teaching, followed by 45 minutes of a pastor’s thoughts on that particular verse, is NOT considered “expository” preaching.
- In “normal” Christianity, members can hold leaders accountable to the congregations they serve.
- In “normal” Christianity, even denominational presidents are held accountable…and by people who don’t work FOR THEM.
- In “normal” Christianity, complaints about church structure and church polity are not handled as “Matthew 18″ issues. Objections to a church’s governance decisions and governance structure are not always turned into private personal grievances. The focus in “normal” churches is first and foremost on fixing the structural problem, rather than on silencing those calling attention to the structural problem.
- In “normal” Christianity, children of a certain age – usually 8 or older – are welcomed to participate in the sacraments. ”Normal” churches do not deny such children baptism. “Normal” churches do not require extensive (yet nonetheless arbitrary) “proof” of the “genuineness” of a young person’s salvation in order to permit the young person to be baptized. In “normal” churches, kids’ normal childish mistakes and missteps (and yes, even kids’ SINS) are not seen as “proof” that these kids are NOT believers. In “normal” churches, children are allowed to believe they are still saved, even if they may not demonstrate all the “measurable” Christian character and attributes that their elders would like to see from them.
- In “normal” Christianity, members do not fuse their continuing participation in a particular church with the perseverance of their Christianity.
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Here are some random reader contributions:
- In “normal” Christianity, a man and woman who are not married to each other can still talk to one another without it being an affair.
- In “normal” Christianity, abuse victims are shown compassion and care…not abandonment and disgrace while perpetrators are celebrated and protected.
- In “normal” Christianity, deceitful, dishonest pastors are dealt with biblically, not covered and protected.
- In “normal” Christianity, caring pastors clear the “busy” schedules to care for those they have offended….as opposed to the classic SGM….wait till next month when we can fit you in mentality…..maybe.
- In “normal” Christianity, blogging is not the only way for members’ concerns and questions to be addressed.
I’m thinking this list could go on for far longer, but in this post, at least, we’ll stop at FIFTY ways that SGM deviates from “normal” Christianity. If you can think of others, feel free to submit them in comments below.
December 10th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
SueBee, I should also add that I carry within me the deepest sense of regret for having ever been involved with SGM. It damaged my life in ways that could have otherwise been built up and founded on good, solid biblical teaching and training. As one other commenter has said, “SGM represents all that is wrong within Christianity”, and I concur.
December 10th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
my post #250 was referring to SueBee’s question in her post #249 (I really should proofread more often)
December 10th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Claireon #250 -
I still hold that SGM should be “Somewhat Graceless Ministries”.
Anybody -
It appears that A-Teamer Dave Harvey is doing a cross-country trek to California to Wellspring Church. This is an adopted church that has had females on staff and as deacons. Anybody know the purpose of DH’s trip? Clean up after SS (ala a recent trip to Gilbert)? Go snowboarding at Tahoe (so he can give a cool answer when CJ interviews him and asks those important, telling questions about a pastor/leader and his athletic pursuits)? Scout out locations for more SGM franchises in the SF area? There was a ripple a year or two ago within SGM about having 3-5 churches there; currently there are 2. Thoughts?
December 10th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Out of SGM said in 253 .. .”I still hold that SGM should be “Somewhat Graceless Ministries”.
I recently heard someone call it “SoverUNGrace”. And that person has never seen the blogs!
December 11th, 2009 at 12:07 am
Claireon – #251 – have you ever told your story? I was hit with such sadness at reading of your regret. Would love to read it, if you have posted.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Nickname # 248
“Please don’t confuse bitterness with brokenheartedness, or the stages of grief.”
I understand how people can be broken hearted and in grief over pain of lost relationships and a sense betrayal, my only concern for myself and those on these posts is that the enemy is not given a foothold through bitterness. Nowhere in scripture is bitterness seen as a fruit of the Spirit. I will agree that we are to “weep with them that weep” and these places may be the only place you can find someone to weep with.
February 8th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
What’s interesting is that this whole list of “normal” Christianity is not grounded in the Bible at all. Who determined what is “normal”? I guess the author of this did. Therefore, they are now the new Mahaney and we all follow them. I think we should all look at Peter in the Bible as the ideal pastor…
February 8th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
“Normal” refers to what the majority of “typical” Bible-based Evangelical/Reformed churches do.
That’s all.
Why does it bother you that SGM is odd? You seem quite angry, actually. Maybe you should have a cooling-off period before commenting more. It’d probably make your comments more effective…to where you’d sound less emotional…
February 8th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
@Kris, sorry if you think it’s emotional, but that seems to be how I read your list; full of emotion without knowing what is really going on in the Reformed world, and I should know because I go to one of the best Reformed seminaries.
The fact is that your whole list is not grounded in the Bible. It’s propaganda.
About the list, if you don’t mind; we are doing this to further both of our love for Jesus. I am not sticking up for SGM because I think that there are all kinds of problems with them, but not with their doctrine. Church gov’t is not as important as doctrine because eventually the doctrine will put them in order, but it doesn’t work the other way around. Make sense?
#2: Think of what missionaries do. They are church planters (ACTS). They don’t just go to unreached people groups, but for the next door neighbor that we’ve never preached the gospel to.
#5: Is wrong because they don’t believe in modern day apostles like the NT period (out of Jeff Purswell’s own mouth to me), but they use the word to denote a specific team to care for local churches. It’s just a word.
#7: The intermission is so that the children can be released to children’s church and that we can meet other believers in the church. What’s odd about that?
#8-9: I’ve never heard a SGM pastor call church a “meeting” or a sermon a “teaching”. I’ve disagreed with my pastors vehemently on big issues and have watched humility. Of course that comes after the Lord works in both of our hearts. I have absolutely no problem being a sheep of Christ, and submitting to a man called to be a shepherd.
#10: That is the biggest problem in preaching, anywhere…ask Julius Kim at Westminster Seminary.
#11: I agree, but the fact is that there is no mention of lay-elders in the Bible.
#13: I mock and disagree with Mark Lauterbach in San Diego all the time. I’ve never experienced what you are talking about. However, at the last church (not SGM but a mainstream church) I went to, the pastor said that he wanted a $70,000 study office or he was leaving the church.
#14: That’s a big problem that people don’t think of themselves in need of help, no matter where it comes from.
#15: We had a tongue in San Diego last month, but 1 Cor 14 says to pursue prophecy more than any other gift. Never heard them say not to speak in tongues (spoken language).
#16: Because people who are being led don’t know what they are doing, they mimic their leaders. That’s normal.
#17-19 Have you ever been to a Reformed church? The pastors/elders have to go through a series of tests just to become a pastor and then after that they have to find a congregation to hire them. I’ve watched people pass those tests and cheat on their wives just the same. If that pastor said something that was not Reformed, the presbytry can forcefully remove them without the congregations permission. The congregation doesn’t have any authority.
#21: The Reformed world doesn’t encourage Bible studies, unless an elder is the one doing it.
#22: We are members of one church, therefore, we are called specifically to one set of people to care for. We are not independent contractors, but sheep underneath a shepherd.
#23: The Bible doesn’t call us friends of God, but sons and daughters. The song isn’t big enough. If I ran around Bill Gates screaming that I am his friend, he would have me arrested. He wouldn’t feel like he’s being worshipped, but annoyed. It’s a good song, not corporate Sunday morning worship. What is not “normal” in Reformed churches is the fact that those songs exist period.
#25: Yes they are, again, have you ever been to a Reformed church?
#26: I agree
#27: My best friend was on a bunch of meds and his mainstream church forbid it, and he tried to commit suicide (he has a wife and kids; sad). What he realized was that he simply didn’t understand justification. He’s been fine every since. He was diagnosed by the psychiatric world to have 7 different things. I guess he now has none. Sometimes, sin is the issue.
#28: I agree
#29: Actually, San Diego is the first church (I’ve been to 7 denominations and 3 Reformed churches) that this hasn’t been a big issue, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
#30: I never had to sign that.
#32: That happened to me at the church I pastored. It’s been 6 years.
#33: Leaving a church, means leaving the people of the church (i.e. those that God has called you to care for), not just the pastors leadership. Having fear might be an indication not to leave. If you fear the pastors, that’s just called sin (man pleasing).
#34: Leave your church right now and watch what happens. That’s how ALL churches are. It’s sin. That’s what Paul rebukes women to not be gossipers and back-biters to Timothy. So, it was obviously a problem in his day.
#35: If I were a pastor, and some crazy left a church, I’d want a heads up, but I agree if the pastor’s a control freak and the persons isn’t a crazy.
#36: Sin is sin, I don’t know why it’s not important to you. Your complaint against SGM is ongoing pride???
#40: I agree, but haven’t experienced that at San Diego.
#41: I do that with Mark Lauterbach all the time.
#43: If you think that SGM is in sin, then Matt 18 applies, if not, then why have all of this for something that isn’t sin. God doesn’t. You are slandering people you have never met before. They should be the one’s to take you to your churches leaders for discipline.
#44: SGM are Baptists, that is how ALL Baptists are. Baptism is the initiation rite into being a believer of Christ and the covenant He has made with Man. The Sacraments are a reconstituting of this. Why would you take the Lord’s Supper, proclaiming His death, if you haven’t been baptized into His death? ALL Reformed churches believe this.
#46: I know of 6 people that had an affair, and that is how it started. Billy Graham doesn’t allow a man and woman in the same room without someone else in the room. Obviously, just talking to someone is stupid, but if your husband and my wife were talking, I’d want to know about what, so that I can protect her soul.
#47: That’s totally how all SGM pastors and churches are…sarcasm???
This list has been a springboard for people to make the situation worse in their hearts and souls. There is no healing from this. It took 5 years for me to be healed from my former church. But, there IS reconciliation. It took me, the one sinned against, to go and do this because I couldn’t take it any more. Eric and Mark from San Diego were so crucial in this for me.
May God further our discussions,
Chad Brewer
February 8th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Chad,
OK, although this is an old post and I wasn’t intending it to generate more discussion, I’ll play nice and go along with you here, since I forgot to close comments.
Let’s take this point by point.
Uh, how can you say this with any confidence at all when SGM’s doctrine is ever-evolving, ever-changing? Are you even positive what their positions are on each point these days? Are you sure something hasn’t been slipped past you while you weren’t looking?
But, let’s just say that you’re sure of what it is that SGM stands for these days. Really, I think you’ve missed the point. The issue has never been so much about what SGM has committed to paper. Rather, the issue is how they live out what they claim to believe. If you’re right about their “right doctrine” affecting their governance, then they will put their money where their “worst sinner” mouths are and institute some sort of formal accountability for leaders, TO their people. I’ve heard that this is supposedly happening right there in your very own church…but not with Corporate’s approval. The fact is, they can pay the “worst sinner” ideas all the lip service in the world, but if their governance structure contradicts what they SAY they believe, then their doctrine is NOT right. Doctrine is not so much about what a church nails down on paper – it’s how those statements actually play out.
It is a FACT that most SGM churches do not welcome new converts to the Christian faith as much as they welcome longtime Christians poached from other churches. So I would really beg to differ with you over your definition of “missions” as church planters. Maybe planting churches in otherwise unchurched areas would be a “missions” endeavor. But not the way that SGM has typically done things. Those poor unreached white upper-middle-class suburbs. No “good” churches anywhere. Makes me want to head out to the vast wheat fields of Colorado Springs, Colorado…
About the use of “apostle” – words have meanings, Chad. As a student of “one of the best seminaries,” I think you would understand that. It means something to bandy about the term “apostle.” It does. The fact that they stopped doing this – and renamed their “apostles” something else, without actually announcing this organization-wide – is significant.
Nothing, in and of itself. But when it’s something that happens at every single SGM church across the country, with very forced, wooden, and structured tackling of visitors (“So, how did you find us????? What brought you here???? Wanna go out to lunch???? Please oh please oh please come to lunch with me, you Total Stranger!”), it starts to seem odd. Just sayin’.
Then you haven’t been around many SGM churches, Chad. “Meeting” and “teaching” replace “service” and “sermon” almost everywhere you go. Again, it is NOT a big deal, in and of itself. It’s just weird weird weird for a
denominationfamily of churches to make such an effort to be different.I’m not so sure where your assertion is coming from, about following a man called to be a shepherd. But whatever.
Um, no. Not. Not the way that it is in SGM. I think you need to spend some more time perusing all the teaaching sound files that there are out there. Pretty soon you won’t be able to tell who’s who and who’s CJ. It’s freaky. I’ve been in various Reformed/Evangelical churches my entire life (with a sojourn through a hyper-Charismatic church), and I can tell you that nobody mimics another famous guy the way that SGM pastors mimic CJ. Maybe you don’t hear it so much because Mr. Lauterbach had other non-SGM training. But your experience doesn’t negate the truth.
I’m glad you agree. But really, it isn’t so much that SGM does NOT have “lay-elders.” Rather, it’s that they’re trying to pass off paid staff pastors as “lay-elders” to the person investigating SGM. By using commonly understood terms (again, remember – words have meanings) in uncommon ways, SGM is employing a tactic frequently used by cults. It’s deceptive.
I say, if they want to structure their governance after the Catholic church with CJ as their pope, they should go for it! Knock themselves out! But – at the same time, they should be honest about it. Don’t be all slithery and slippery and deceptive. THAT is my issue.
Again – that is your experience. That’s great. It’s also probably one of the secret reasons why Mr. Lauterbach has found himself on the Corporate chopping block recently.
No, it’s not a “big problem” – it’s NORMAL. It’s NORMAL to have circles of friends, some of whom are closer to you than others. It’s NOT NORMAL to feel so free and easy with harping on the flaws. It’s NOT NORMAL to immediately SEE the flaws in others. And it’s not effective to go around spewing correction to total strangers. If you do this long enough, it does almost ruin a person for interaction in the regular Christian world. (And I’m not meaning “regular” in the sense of “carnal,” either – just to be clear.)
I can always tell when I’m dealing with someone who has been locked in the SGM social world for awhile. They seriously lack any sense of how they’re coming across…they lack all sense of social niceties. Many of them come across as flat-out RUDE.
Again – it’s not so much that they FORBID “the gifts” or that they actively preach against them. But the majority of SGM churches don’t PROMOTE them or TEACH ABOUT them either. You can find more “Charismatic” practices and attitudes in churches that don’t actively advertise themselves as Charismatic, the way that SGM does.
I’m sorry, Chad – but it’s NOT. You can say it’s normal, but it isn’t. It’s something that happens in SGM. And in cults.
Um…sigh…yes, I’ve been in “Reformed” churches. I don’t see what this has to do with carting around unapproved books or thinking what their leaders think.
ABSOLUTELY not true. Not true, not true, not true. Your experience – as vast and as great as it might be – is just not exhaustive, and I’d venture to guess that you haven’t been in lots of churches all around the country. I’ve heard from so many folks who have left SGM and have been amazed at the freedom permitted in their post-SGM churches in the Bible study department. This one is about control. And the underlying belief in SGM that there actually is NOT a “priesthood of all believers,” but that special men identified for leadership have a deeper ability to understand God’s Word.
Wow…so much SGM propaganda crammed into one statement. I don’t even know where to begin. So I won’t, beyond saying that if you believe this, then you also must then believe that you can’t serve food at a non-SGM-run homeless shelter? (That’s the sort of thing I was referencing when talking about “serving” in the Body of Christ.)
Ugh. Again, where to begin?
The Bible definitely declares that we are God’s friends. Jesus said it to His disciples. We read of this idea again in James 2. If Bill Gates wrote me letters and told me twice that I was his friend, I’d think I could run around and sing it without annoying him.
I’m thinking YOUR idea of God is too small here.
This is getting old. Yes, I’ve been to other “Reformed” churches. But you are sadly mistaken about the type of counsel that people in “normal” churches receive. First of all, pastors in “normal” churches do not see it as their place to offer up this sort of counsel in the first place. “Normal” churches have not been infected by the remnants of the Shepherding Movement, as has SGM. But secondly, if you’ve ever had to make a move in an ordinary Reformed denomination, they will happily send you on your way to another town not serviced by their denomination. That’s been my experience. It’s been the experience of NUMEROUS members of my extended family. It’s been the experience of NUMEROUS friends of mine. And many, many others with whom I’ve corresponded.
However, it’s NOT true of SGM.
But sometimes, sin is NOT the issue…would you agree? Sometimes, someone is just genuinely sick, and it’s not the pastor’s place to weigh in on this, unless the pastor has also been to med school.
Then you haven’t hung out in many SGM churches. As I’ve said, it’s possible that you’re basing all your assessments on what’s going on solely in the San Diego church. But if you spend some time poking around online, you’ll see plenty of places where CJ has given his lovely “Heart Of Modesty” sermon (which interestingly enough, isn’t really about anyone’s heart, as much as it is about women’s clothing). In SGM, men teach mixed crowds about modesty. That’s a fact. It may not be happening within the San Diego church, but it’s happening within SGM.
Then you have not had to sign a typical SGM membership covenant, as evidenced by the one from CLC, which you can examine here (click on the link labeled “Starting Point Manual”): http://www.covlife.org/ministries/starting_point/Starting%20Point%202006_new.pdf
CLC’s membership covenant has served as a boiler plate for nearly identical documents at other SGM churches. Again, maybe the San Diego church is different. But then again, it may be just a matter of time, and you WILL be asked to sign such a thing.
So what you’re really saying here is that your OLD church was also abnormal. But that does not make such behavior right or desirable, and it does not mean that SGM and CJ are off the hook on this one.
Seriously? It’s a SIN to be afraid to leave? FEAR is a sign of SIN? Really?
What if it’s just a person’s God-given discernment at work?
Or – what if it’s actually true, that the person has something real to fear, from pastors with issues who lash out and attempt to destroy those who leave? I think you’re speaking of stuff you really don’t now much about.
Nope. It’s not typical of ALL churches. If that’s been your experience, I’m sorry for you. But you’ve already established that your previous church was abnormal. So maybe you’ve just had bad luck in choosing “normal” churches.
But we’re not talking about a mere “heads up” – we’re talking about church discipline that CJ and Josh Harris have both advocated should extend beyond SGM’s doors. Do some research on what they’ve actually written and taught on this subject. You may be surprised.
Um, do you even know what I’m talking about? You’ve already demonstrated that you’ve barely spent any time reading on the site, so I will fill you in.
We’ve had lots of stories here from folks who disagreed with their pastors – who weren’t such great saints like Mr. Lauterbach, joking around and mocking himself right along with you. Rather, their pastors took exception and put their big authoritative feet down. Hard.
When the people persisted in their disagreements (which have rum the gamut, from theological differences to things like whether or not someone was in sin for not agreeing with a pastor’s assessment of their depression, to whether or not someone should instantly “forgive and forget” and not seek justice for their toddler’s rapist), they were accused by their pastors of “pride.”
Now, how can you argue with the accusation of “pride” without basically demonstrating that you are, indeed, proud enough to believe that you’re correct, hence seeming to prove the person’s accusation?
The fact is that you CANNOT argue against accusations of “pride.” It’s a weirdly indefensible accusation. It’s not appropriate for a church to place someone under formal church discipline for unprovable undocumentable sins of the heart – which could be lurking just as easily in the PASTOR’S heart as that of the member being accused.
#43: If you think that SGM is in sin, then Matt 18 applies, if not, then why have all of this for something that isn’t sin. God doesn’t. You are slandering people you have never met before. They should be the one’s to take you to your churches leaders for discipline.
Matthew 18 applies to personal relationships – not to organizations and their public teachings. If CJ wants to go around promoting false ideas about his own authority, we as believers have the responsiblity to hold his ideas up to the light of Scripture and show how they are wrong. It’s nothing personal between me and CJ. At this point, the organization is bigger than mere individuals.
Plus…”slander”? Really? “Slander” is the false spoken word. It is not expressing disagreement with a teacher’s public teachings.
Really. Did you even READ what I wrote? I’m not talking about not doing the sacraments in an orderly way. I’m talking about denying the sacrament of baptism to professing children. This is a HUGE problem that is NOT occurring in normal Baptist churches.
Well, I’d hope that their affairs didn’t just start with ripping off each other’s clothing!
I’d HOPE there’d be at least a little conversation there.
Joking aside, this particular reader submission (which, interestingly enough, was brought to you by someone who’d had a rotten experience at your very own San Diego church) was referencing a man and woman having a polite little conversation during the intermission time. A simple little conversation.
Again – you haven’t read the stories here, or you’d know what I was talking about. This, too, was a reader submission.
You didn’t even know I wasn’t a dude, Dude – so how can you speak with such authority about this list? You clearly haven’t read much here. Rather, you dove in to rebuke me and everyone else with hot emotions, sounding all sarcastic and silly and…well…immature. It’s actually kind of scary to think that you’re in seminary.
I’m glad that your experience at the San Diego church has been so good for you. But that doesn’t really change the fact that the majority of churches in your
denominationfamily of churches are NOT “normal” – they do many, many things that have more in common with CULTS than with normal healthy churches. It’s GREAT that you were helped by guys within SGM to reach a place of healing. Celebrate that…but keep in mind, it’s probably something that has more to do with those individual guys than the wacked-out messed-up system they’re in at the moment.