Awhile back, I wrote a post entitled Dear SGM Defender. In that post - which was a sort of generic response to the folks who write me to tell me that the SGM survivors who post here don’t know what they’re talking about - I offered up some thoughts as to why one individual might be having a great time in his Sovereign Grace Ministries church, while another individual may have had a terrible time. Today I have another such topic to address.
Dear SGM Defender,
In your email, you said that I should “stop being a coward” and contact C.J. Mahaney or any of a number of other SGM leaders, so that I could hear what they have to say about what people have shared here on this site. You seem fairly confident that if I go to your leaders, they will have answers for the trail of people that have been hurt by SGM because of the organization’s authoritarian ways. They will have explanations. They will convey to me a higher understanding of what so many former members have described, and if I just “go to them” and listen to their explanations, then somehow, everything will be different.
Of all the things that mystify me about Sovereign Grace Ministries, I’d say that the cluster of assumptions behind your suggestion is at the top of my “Most Mind-Boggling” list.
I couldn’t even count how many times I’ve been asked (told) to contact SGM pastors/leaders when I either express disagreement with their teachings or permit readers to share their experiences with these men’s bad behavior. And what strikes me is that such a suggestion (“Just ask my SGM pastors/leaders to explain everything!”) presupposes a couple of things. One, of course, is that the pastor/leader is truly open to hearing stuff that could easily be construed as “negative.” Another is that the pastor/leader will be completely above-board and without guile in whatever he says.
And lastly, entering into a dialog with a particular SGM pastor/leader presupposes that the pastor/leader has some sort of authority over the situation or teaching. (Otherwise, why would we care what he has to say about it?)
I get the feeling that some SGMers simply don’t comprehend that those of us on the outside of SGM don’t believe in or trust SGM pastors/leaders the way that they do. For one thing, I don’t believe that many of these men are truly open to dissent or disagreement. Sure, they may SAY they are, and they may have recently been told to put on a “new openness” and now work a little harder to appear as though they’re actually listening to complaints. But the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and unless things change significantly to reflect that the area of concern has truly been addressed, then all that “new openness” is pretty meaningless.
Another thing: I don’t particularly believe that many SGM pastors/leaders will be completely open and without guile when dealing with their dissenters. For some of them, this is unintentional, merely the product of what they’ve been taught about how leaders behave. For some of them, though, to dissemble and deceive is quite deliberate. I’ve said this time and again, but I will repeat myself – I think it’s the height of naïveté to believe that you can count on the full and unvarnished truth from someone whom you suspect of dishonesty, simply because you ask him whether he’s telling the truth. I’m sorry, but such thinking is simply STUPID. If you have reason to believe that a person is being less than fully forthcoming with you, WHY would you think that the person is then going to turn around and be honest about his dishonesty?
Deceptive people aren’t gonna suddenly own up to their deceptiveness, just because one of their parishioners comes up and asks them about it! Duh! If you have reason to believe that someone is dishonest and/or manipulative, then chances are they will attempt to manipulate and deceive you when you confront them about it - ESPECIALLY when you confront them about it. Most of ‘em will not cave and fold like cheap lawn chairs and fully confess all, just because a member “brings an observation” to them. If anything, dishonest manipulators will merely ramp up their dishonesty and deception to another level. They will clean up the things that got you to suspect them – they will deal with the symptoms – but they will not actually address the real problems behind those symptoms.
And, like I said, some of these leaders/teachers don’t even fully grasp what they’re doing. They’ve been so indoctrinated and well-trained that they actually believe this is how ministry should be done – that THEY are “the authorities,” and it is their members’ duty to simply put up and shut up.
But yeah…
What I’m trying to get at is that I have no interest in anything that the leaders of Sovereign Grace Ministries would want to communicate about the things I’ve observed or that others have shared. It’s not anything against these leaders personally. It’s just that what the SGM defenders don’t seem to understand is that especially to those of us on the outside of SGM, what the leaders have to say holds no special authority over us.
Moreover, the opinions of those in leadership are no more valid than the opinions that we ourselves form about an issue through our own observations, through what our own eyes and ears (and guts) tell us. To believe otherwise is to embrace certain presuppositions that I think would be false.
So no, I will NOT be ringing up Corporate Headquarters in Gaithersburg anytime soon. They’re free to read here and learn whatever they can from what people have shared. They’re CERTAINLY free to turn from their previous bad behavior and faulty teachings and treat their members with respect, as true brothers and sisters in the Lord. They can implement changes – they don’t need to dialog with me to do that!
And I don’t need to dialog with them to discern what my own eyes and ears and logic tell me.
You know what else? Neither do you. Stop this foolishness of looking to your leaders to tell you what to think. Start thinking for yourself.
Sincerely,
Kris
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
December 10th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
That’s the part I don’t get. Why do SGM defenders (even those who supposedly “see the dark side” and “just want to present a balanced view”) think that their dissent is going to be lauded and applauded here? Especially if it’s cloaked in sort of cantankerous tones, like the dissenter is “bringing an observation”?
I wrote this nearly two years ago, but it’s still true today:
December 10th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Defender,
Yes, it is true. Not sure the common folk get to hear those recordings.
Wayfaring Man
Defended
December 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Wayfaring – #47 – What is this about? Is the recording available?
Were you there?
sigh…..haven’t most who need to reconcile been de-gifted, thus not attending leadership weekends?
I heard Shank tell KJacob to go and apologize to others for something and it never happened, while he (KJ) was on the payroll, so, uh, no, it’s not likely ever, lest God truly intervenes. Not something as big as true reconciliation.
Yet, if there are actual events of this happening among others I would LOVE to hear of it.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
The Missus said,
“Recently, I had my brother who isn’t a Christian read this blog. His comment was “No question. Christianity is bare-knuckles bloodsport.” I think he’s onto something.”
Just curious…what was your purpose for having your unbelieving brother read the blog?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
There are two kinds of people in the world: those that think there are only two choices (like, say, apologist or hater) and those who understand that things are far more complicated and nuanced and ambiguous than that.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
“…and those who understand that things are far more complicated and nuanced and ambiguous than that.”
And that care enough to do something about it, no matter what the cost.
A voice for those who either don’t know how to say it or are just too beaten down to have enough strength to try.
December 11th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Musicman – #92 – no, we weren’t part of that church plant but we had some special friends from Ffx who joined that team and it was quite a struggle for them. They are still in the Pitt area, I believe. (thank God for facebook!) Did you go on that church plant?
(sorry,can’t remember if that’s part of your story.)
December 11th, 2009 at 12:31 am
Missus #95
Often I’ve seen comments posted from people who are questioning things but are not yet solidly in the hater camp. Because they can’t be readily identified as haters, the regulars here draw their knives and commence stabbing.
wow, that is some of the most hate-filled posting I’ve seen on this blog, in 1000′s of posts!
December 11th, 2009 at 1:01 am
Wow…i’m sorry but i have been reading this site for a while now and this is probably the most pretentious post i have seen on here yet. Where is the humility?
“And, like I said, some of these leaders/teachers don’t even fully grasp what they’re doing. They’ve been so indoctrinated and well-trained that they actually believe this is how ministry should be done – that THEY are “the authorities,” and it is their members’ duty to simply put up and shut up.”
Wow that’s a bold statement to such a large group of people. I cannot agree with this fully. I feel like no matter what others have done, in a way I cannot fully condemn their leaders. Many of them are striving to do good. I know no better.
I used to go to SGM. I lived and breathed it for many years. Yes I was hurt by many people. I know so many stories and have witnessed so many things I could write a book. I have more dirt on SGM then most people on here. But you know, I moved on. There are so many other things in this world that are worth fighting for. So many global issues. I cannot fathom how some people post on here regularly. How many of you are in your communities helping those around you? I want to help my community. I want to serve those around me. If you ask me, I will tell you my personal opinion of SGM. But I cannot lend my approval of Christians constantly dissecting other ministries for any reason. For what good? This site undermines the human spirit and latches on to the negative. I can discern no profit from sitting on this site and ranting about the past. Yes, the history of humanity is stained with guilt. It always will be. Nothing new under the sun. I feel like this site is propagating a focus on the negative aspects of humanity that always be. There are many evils in this world, but is this one worth fighting for? I refuse to label myself as a “SGM Survivor.” I am no victim to circumstance and I am no survivor. Let go. As Emerson said, “Your goodness must have some edge to it,-else it is one. I ask, what is the “edge” to this site which gives it goodness? I used to want to talk about SGM, but I have realized that no profitable good has come of it. I used to be bitter but I’m done with that road. I’m pressing on.
“Their virtues are penances. I do not wish to expiate, but to live. My life is for itself and NOT a spectacle.”
December 11th, 2009 at 2:24 am
The Missus: Where to start… The comments that have “hit home” to me are the online hugs sent to hurting people, the encouragement and prayers for those who are disillusioned, the validation, kindness, Christian charity for those who have been shunned… Your comments don’t even hit the neighborhood.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:17 am
Defended-
I was at at PC of Pitt- pretty sure I knew the couple you speak of (JM & SM ?)-really good folks…my wife and I recall them fondly.
I always wondered if they stuck it out….thanks for the info.
Acme-well spoken…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:20 am
AKS,
To answer your question – my brother is a research fellow with a university think tank (mostly non-partisan but I’d say it leans slightly left) and he’s looking into political hate blogs to see if there’s enough there to write a book or if he should just make it an article for the think tank’s journal.
He had made a comment about evangelicals being too nice and I just wanted to show him that Christians can hate with the best of ‘em. He was quite taken aback by the viciousness of the post (inspired by me) about how christians who go to sgm churches aren’t “normal” and the subsequent comments mocking and belittling them and doing it with such precision. Oh yes, I know there’s no hate in your collective hearts, but when you’re on the receiving end of those comments, it feels a lot like hate.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Alyosha,
Thanks for your comment, and welcome.
You ask about if any good has come out of this site. Aside from the many, many people who have written to tell me what a relief it was to find out that they were not alone in their SGM experiences, and that they WEREN’T crazy, I can point to one other really major positive thing that this blog and others like it have done:
The blogs about SGM have finally caused SGM’s leadership to understand that what they do to people in private might not always remain private.
And consequently, even though fear of exposure may not always be the best motivator to get people to truly change from the inside out, at least there’s another layer of protection for the average SGM member. I mean, I think a lot of the supposed “new openness” that has been mandated (where pastors have been instructed to try to be more open to correction from members and to not always direct the conversation back around to the members’ sin) is probably more about the surface appearances than anything else. I think the root tendency to think in the same way is still there. Until that root problem is addressed, repeatedly and openly, there’s not going to be substantially real change.
HOWEVER, the very fact that a lot of these stories have been made public is enough to motivate pastors to watch themselves. I doubt that a child molester would today be treated the same way as the young man in Noel’s story, for instance.
This blog is a deterrant to further SGM abuse.
I see a lot of logical leaps in your own criticism of this site, actually. First of all, please note that in the portion of my remarks which you quoted, I was referring to “some” SGM pastors. SOME, not ALL or even MOST.
Secondly, you do realize that it’s possible to participate in this site and also find plenty of time for other types of service. You yourself, of course, are an example of someone who reads blogs and even (at least occasionally) chooses to participate in them, and yet you must not believe that that gets in the way of the positive stuff you try to do. It is the same for most of us here. I happen to type and write very quickly. I may spend a few 15-minute chunks here and there responding to commenters. Occasionally I have invested a little more time in writing the actual posts, especially the transcripts. But this blog really is NOT a huge part of my life. And it isn’t preventing me from participating in lots of activities and serving my community in various capacities. I’m pretty sure the same could be said for the vast majority of our readers and commenters…yourself included, of course.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:57 am
“The Missus” -
Instead of all this crying-in-your-beer talk of “hate,” it’d be interesting for you to actually deal with all the ways in which SGM tries to set itself apart from other Bible-based Evangelical/Reformed churches. You seem particularly bothered by being told that SGM is different from “normal” Christianity.
If you want to participate in the discussion here, why not address some of the more significant parts of the list of SGM’s “abnormalities.” Why not deal, for instance, with the way that SGM plants churches and thinks that that is “missions”? Why not address what SGM teaches its pastors about psychiatric medications, and how they can be part of a member’s “management” of those medications?
That’d be so much more interesting than all this talk of “hate.” As you yourself pointed out, there’s no “hate” in our collective hearts toward you. Or even toward SGM.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:14 am
This will be my last post on this site…
I’m sorry but I don’t believe anyone can truly profit from this site. This site represents to me why Christians have such a bad rep in society. This site represents to me why I no longer affiliate myself with Christians. Between this site and SGM I would say that they are two sides of the same coin. I just don’t see the humility in Christians I have been looking for. Perhaps it does not exist. This site makes me truly sad. I hope no curious “unbelievers” stumble upon this site. It is swimming in animosity.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:31 am
On Missions – I’ve never heard of in-country church planting referred to as “missions”. I’ve heard it referred to as being part of “THE” mission in same way that our evangelistic college ministry is referred to as helping to fulfill the Great Commission in our little corner.
On Psychiatric Medication – don’t know what they teach about this at the pastor’s college. In a talk on this topic a couple of years ago, the pastor said that if you need to take ‘em, take ‘em. I have a close friend within our church that is very mentally ill and takes quite a few meds. She certainly has my full support. If people can be sick in their bodies, why can’t they be sick in their minds?
I wish your love felt more like love and less like hate.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Aloha, Alyosha!
December 11th, 2009 at 8:40 am
“The Missus” -
I wish I felt anything resembling “love” coming from YOUR posts…
I find it so interesting that SGMers are so closely fused with their particular
denominationfamily of churches that discussion of SGM’s abnormalities becomes so personal for them.Let’s just say, hypothetically, that someone (Claireon, for example) “hates” SGM. (I mention Claireon because she has made her position abundantly clear – she believes that SGM is a destructive approach to the Christian faith and has boldly said many times that SGM is leading people astray.) That does not mean that she “hates” the people, personally! Rather, she “hates” the way that the organization does things. She “hates” a lot of the stuff that they teach.
Why is a disapproval of SGM’s “abnormalities” perceived as “hatred” of you personally?
I don’t get it.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Anything else you want to ask me about the “normal” thing?
December 11th, 2009 at 9:06 am
“The Missus” -
I don’t think you’ve addressed what I already asked. SGM has made it clear that they do not do regular “missions” – instead, they consider their church-planting efforts to be “missions.” They do not support any evangelistic outreach that is not directly tied to SGM.
And as to psychiatric meds, SGM’s pastors are still taught to have a clear bias against medications. At this year’s pastors’ conference, Andy Farmer made several statements about how undesirable such meds are, and how pastors can “be part of the management” of a member’s medications.
Are you going to address why you keep talking about “hate” in such a personal way, when all we’re doing here is talking about SGM? Why do you have such a close personal connection to SGM, to where you are perceiving criticisms of the organization as criticisms of you yourself personally?
December 11th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Oh come on, Kris – do you really love me???? Of course you don’t. Why would you? I don’t mind your lack of love for me or your hatred toward sgm. I’m merely pointing out its existence to interested observers.
Christians are very good at hating each other. Its one of the many reasons that we need the Lord.
As far as the issues I addressed re missions and meds, my comments stand. All I can comment on is my own experience. I didn’t hear the messages from the pastors conference. I guess I’m not as interested in that stuff as you are.
December 11th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Yup, that’s it in a nutshell!
This site definitely serves a great purpose of helping to inform people about the destructive influence of SGM, and to warn unassuming Christians of the ugly and offensive elements that lurk beneath SGM’s carefully groomed and guarded exterior.
Anyone with half a brain and the ability to put two and two together can see that God is using Kris’s and Guy’s gifts, talents, and passions to run and maintain this site. Kris is brilliant and is obviously more than capable of managing the task of responding to emails and posts, as well as formulating her incredibly intelligent analysis of the issues that confront us in regards to SGM. This site is a ministry and a blessing and God is in this.
That alone should give people pause. Those that are in SGM need to realize that this site wasn’t launched by some hackers on the internet who are unemployed and sitting in their Mom’s basements in their pajamas (as one SGM pastor characterized bloggers). God has risen up a collective voice of people within the framework of this site. Kris has become the spokesperson, and anyone that reads what she writes knows that she’s worth her weight in gold. If anyone walks away from SGMsurvivors thinking that nothing is being said here, or that this site is useless – then I pity the foo’.
Thanks again Kris and Guy for all you do. May the Lord continue to bless and encourage the work of SGMsurvivors and all those that read and participate here. May the Spirit of Truth shine forth and shed light on the very real and serious problems that people have experienced while in SGM, that are generated by SGM. And may this site be one among many that call people out of the darkness and into the light. The enemy is cunning and deceitful, who clothes himself in light, and calls the darkness light. SGM is full of artificial light. This site is simply a tool to help people open the blinds and let the true Light shine. My hope is that people open the shutters, the doors, and the windows and follow the Light straight OUT of SGM.
December 11th, 2009 at 10:20 am
“The Missus” -
Really? “Hate”? Such a dramatic word…so full of passion…
It seems to me that all an “interested observer” would be seeing here is junior high-ish hyperbole.
And a strange tendency to take discussion about a
denomination’sfamily of churches’ issues personally.Why does my belief that SGM deliberately makes itself “abnormal” (compared to other Bible-based Evangelical/Reformed churches) translate into “hatred” for you as an individual? Why?
I think maybe you’ve inadvertently helped us stumble onto #51 for the “Normal/Abnormal” list:
December 11th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Kris,
Is there a way that we as posters on this site can use the same visual effects as you, lining words out, hi-lighting etc?
Chuck
December 11th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Chuck,
Yeah. Just search for html codes for WordPress. (If I were to try and describe which keys to type with which code, it would simply publish as the effect I’m trying to describe, so that won’t work.)
December 11th, 2009 at 11:07 am
There are hate sites for Windows 7 and brussel sprouts.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Misicman,
I’m jumping in here before Defended replies.
We (Defended & Me) were talking last night about how we miss (JM & SM).
Thanks for that confirmation. They were good friends of ours back in VA. SM is my hero, for her ministry before she & JM were married. What a brave woman!
Hey Believer! Good to “see” you again. I’ve missed you & Mr. Believer.
(Back to our regularly scheduled discussion on “hate speech”.)
-Defender
December 11th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Claireon — #121 —
— well said. Thank you.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Since beginning to read here, the positive and forgiving tone of most posts have encouraged and blessed me — even as folks have described incredible treatment at the hands of trusted Christians, they’ve been truthful, yet often far more gracious than I would expect. But when the truth exposes pure-tee meanness, the truth hurts. Truth can always stand up to examination, and often when truth hurts, people strike out like caged animals, because the only weapons they have left are personal attacks.
Talking about true happenings isn’t hatred. If this had been a “hate” site, I’d have read once and never returned.
Thanks, Kris, for providing this forum.
December 11th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
“The Missus” -
How ’bout we just table all this talk of “hate,” OK?
You’re hearing “hate” – personal hate, directed at you – in a discussion about your church organization. You are bothered on some sort of personal level because people here have outlined more than 50 ways that SGM as an organization differs from “normal” Bible-based Evangelical/Reformed church organizations.
You have the right to feel whatever you’re feeling, of course, but the truth is that your perceptions are NOT accurate and what people are saying here is NOT meant in the personal way that you’re taking it.
You can lob accusations of “hate,” and I can volley back that it’s not “hate,” and we can go round and round. Try as you might, you’re never going to convince me that I hate you. Because I don’t.
So there’s no point to further discussion of “hate.”
What’s funny, though, is that whether you realize it or not, your own comments are especially unpleasant and nasty in tone. Trust me on this one. I’ve been dealing with dissenters, sometimes really angry dissenters, since practically the first day this site was up, and the way you say things would rank right up there with the worst of ‘em. You may not intend to, but you sound snide, like one of those subtle Mean Girls from middle school. It really doesn’t reflect well on SGM as an organization, if this is what their version of “grace” looks like. Y’know?
For all your complaints about my (supposed) lack of love for you, you’ve extended no love toward me…at least none that I can detect.
It doesn’t actually seem to me that “love” is that great a priority for you – at least, not on the giving end.
December 11th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Does anyone else see a pattern in the recent comments?
I’ve noticed from time to time – particularly on days following SGM’s most popular evenings to hold their small-group meetings – an increase in people harping on the same ideas, or putting forth similar kinds of comments.
Like, there was the time when everyone was coming around and copying and pasting Bible verses about gossip.
Then there have been weeks when the theme seemed to be people’s anonymity, and the lack of credibility inherent in such anonymity.
There was also the “My Church Is Different!” mantra.
And now it’s like the theme is, “You’re not showing enough love! What will non-Christians think of your lack of love?”
Interestingly enough, I’ve interacted with more than a few non-Christians who have stumbled onto this site and chosen to either comment or write me an email. Just about all of them have expressed, in one way or another, that they’re glad there are Christians who will speak out against the abuses that can happen in church.
Unbelievers are particularly turned off by organizations that do stuff like cover up child abuse. They really want no part of that kind of “love.”
December 11th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I’m more than happy to table the “hate” discussion.
My original point was that it is possible to have some serious issues with sgm and not be quite ready to throw in the towel. I know, because that’s where I’m at.
As an experiment, why not try NOT attacking people. If you would give them half a chance you might be surprised at how easily the conversation could be worked around to the place where you’re most comfortable – sgm’s shortcomings.
However, you’re absolutely right that its your blog and you have every right to do as you please.
December 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“The Missus” -
I think it’s all a matter of perception. I really do.
You see, I think people here (myself included) feel “attacked” when SGM defenders such as yourself amble on over here and without so much as a “Hi-how-are-ya” start in on why we’re wrong and how we’re not showing enough love and how we’re gossips and how even though SGM isn’t perfect, YOUR experience has been different.
And so on. And so forth.
There’s frequently a level of what I think is oddly inappropriate emotion, too, in some of these people’s “corrective” rants.
We’re all only human. This blog is kinda like a living room, where people are in the midst of an ongoing conversation. In the same way that you wouldn’t barge in to someone’s living room and immediately start telling them why you hate what they’re talking about, why they’re wrong, why they’re liars, or why you don’t approve of the color of their window coverings, you also shouldn’t expect to join a blog conversation that way. And if you DO decide to fling accusations without first taking the time to ease into the already-assembled group, you shouldn’t be surprised if you’ll end up feeling “attacked” as people in the group try to defend themselves.
I think this lack of “blog-iquette” is yet another one of those things about some SGMers that I simply do not understand. What do people expect, anyway? I don’t troll the internet, sending out bunches of spam to compel SGMers to come over here and read what I and other people say. If I were in some way advertising the site – like, say, putting fliers under people’s windshield wipers while they were inside their SGM churches attending Sunday
servicesmeetings – or aggressively pursuing readers, maybe that’d be different. But I’m not. I don’t think anyone here is. People come here and read of their own free will. If they don’t like what they read, they’re really and truly free to move on to somewhere else. What I always say is, if what is being said here is so totally wrong, that will all come out in the wash. If it’s all lies and gossip, SGMers have nothing to fear, nothing to defend.God’s truth will prevail.
In the meantime, I wish SGMers would take some time to think, and stop being so cotton-pickin’ rude in the way they interact sometimes.
(Not you, necessarily, “The Missus”…just in general.)
December 11th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
The Missus, if you had submitted your last comment without paragraph 3 (or even just eliminated the word “attacking”), it would be so much better.
As it is, you just proved Kris’ point. You have perceived it as an attack.
I’m so glad you understand that it is Kris’ site. My mama taught me to be respectful to the wishes of my host/hostess, to go ahead and nibble on the lima beans, but not to shout, “Hey, I HATE LIMA BEANS. WHY WOULD YOU ATTACK ME BY SERVING THEM? YOU ALL ARE SUCH HATERS!”
December 11th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I see a pattern, Kris, and I find it interesting that Chuck chimed when he did, too.
Some people can sound so open can’t they? But, in typical SGM fashion, they’re only open to the notion that YOU’RE the one with the problem and that YOU’RE the one that needs to change. They assume they’re fine, but if they took the time to look in the mirror they’d notice a huge booger hanging out of their nose. Or worse, the face of hypocrisy staring back at them.
My feeling is that SGM will work to hide and defuse what is becoming obvious, and attempt to cover up their flaws – not by changing anything – but by some “new” emphasis. But it will be nothing more than a distraction, a subterfuge that people will fall for.
What about SGM’s posture toward their critics? Seems some people like to dish it out and comment on the lives of other public personalities (Bill Belichick, Tiger Woods) without allowing others to comment or ask questions about their own. SGM will continue to insulate themselves, ignore criticism, and act as though they are being “persecuted” for their “righteousness”. Or they will attack their critics. That’s all they are able to do because they can not, they will not, and they do not want to change anything.
If you’re in SGM and you have a problem with SGM, they see it as your problem. They won’t want you there, and it won’t be any good if you stay and try to change things. They’re not going to listen to you. Believe me – if you are unhappy with the way things are, the best thing to do is leave.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Even if someone appeared in my living room and rudely disagreed with me, I would still be polite to them and listen hard to try to understand what they’re saying and why they’re saying it.
December 11th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
An interesting and brief comment on the psy med issue. Some friends of ours, who are longtime SGM’ers, who are members of a long time established SGM Church on the east coast, recently had an issue. One of the couple had some psy issues, went to an MD, was diagnosed with bipolar, or something. Got put on meds. Anyway, they mention it to there care group leader, who then goes off on the “never go to a psychologist, never do psy meds”, etc.., path that has been refered to in the above posts. So the couple, who disagree, go to the pastor, who then completely disagrees with the care group leader. The pastor says that is rediculous and sides with the couple and says it is fine to go that route and also says tha SGM’s policy is that it is ok to go that route as well.
For whatver that is worth…
December 11th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Can you give us a demonstration of what that might look like?
December 11th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
One other thing…I compare SGM’s posture to that of the people promoting global warming in the midst of the Climategate debacle. People realize the statistics have been manipulated, the “science” is unreliable, and that Al Gore is sitting luxuriously in his private car at the front the Gravy Train.
All of them are saying there’s no scandal. All of them are saying everyone’s got it wrong, that the emails are being taken “out of context”, and that all the proof regarding global warming is solid and backed up by a consensus of scientists from around the globe.
The global warming proponents don’t need to change anything about what they’ve written or said – oh no! Even in the face of criticism and proof to the contrary, they remain unbowed. The problem is you! You need to change. You need to work and be involved in passing legislation that will cost us all more money in taxes. And you need to eat less dairy and meat, recycle everything, and live in fear.
SGM also remains unbowed despite all the damaging evidence. Yet for SGM it’s business as usual while they keep telling everyone to keep on track with the SGM program and make the necessary changes in their lives in order to do so.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Haha 5sneakers! Talk about a mixed message! Is down up or is up down?
When I was in SGM, I was told by a Care Group leader who became a Pastor that, “all the medical community can offer you is drugs” which completely discouraged me from taking any medication my doctor prescribed for me to treat my depression from which I suffered after I struggled to recover from some major surgery.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
5Sneakers,
I guess I’m of the mind to find it absolutely bizarre that a church member would even be discussing their prescription drugs with a care group leader or pastor.
I mean, what would have happened if the pastor had toed the usual SGM line and weighed in negatively on the matter? Would the pastor’s opinion have colored how the member viewed these drugs? Would that have had any bearing on the member’s decision to fill the prescription?
Speaking as someone who has spent a lifetime in “normal” churches, such involvement by church leaders in the nitty-gritty personal details of a member’s life is just…breathtakingly bizarre to me.
Anybody else with me on this?
December 11th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
On the subject of drugs vs. no drugs.
The pharmaceutical industry got many, (if not most) of the drugs we use from plants.
Aspirin comes from the bark of a tree. You know where the Christian’s drug of choice (caffeine) comes from, don’t we?
(Jump in here Believer, I know you have a large wealth of knowledge here.)
And I keep hearing this familiar verse banging around in my head:
Re 22:2 …….. And on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Makes you want to go Hmmm…
So when I hear someone, or hear of someone telling someone else how evil doctor prescribed drugs are, I just want to say “mind your own business!”
If God is directing our healing through the hands and wisdom of trained Doctors and Pharmacists, so be it. YOU can always inquire of the LORD as to what to do in each situation.
Reading about that CG leader just got me a little hot.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
It is hard to give whole stories in a blog. (as you know)
They were trying to figure out what was going on. In the care group setting they were asking for prayer and discussing just what was going on in there life.
Whenever I have an important issue, being close to the people in my care group, it is only natural to bring it up. (assuming your care group is mature) Church is a relationship between members. I am not asking them for a diagnosis, it just is a relationship, we are friends, they are involved in my life…obviosly there is wisdom in who you talk to, but I hope I made my point…If I was really sick, I would “gather the elders and lay on hands and pray” as part of any healing process.
After the stand the CG leader made, they felt they had to go to the pastor, because they saw that as somewhat doctrinal.
(dont read any defensiveness in that, I was in a hurry)
December 11th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
That got me thinking about the variation I have seen in Care Groups. I listed all the Care groups I have been in for at least 6 months, over the years, and put them in best to worst order. There are 8 of them.
Starting with best…
SGM
SGM
SGM
SGM
Denomination 1
Denomonition 2
SGM
SGM
I know we havent defined “Best”, so just chuck this up as one of those useless but interesting facts…
December 11th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Agreed Kris!
It is “breathtakingly bizarre”.
I sometimes am amazed at how people can be so concerned with privacy on one hand, and then just open up in ways that just leave them bare to the “mercy” of others in private matters.
Although I have a facebook page, it is almost bare because there is little I am willing to “share with the world.”
This forum is a little more open, but that is why I use a “handle” rather than my name. Some things I say can be traced to others who may or may not want to be revealed. Anybody who truly knows me can figure it out, as Merlin did, but it still needed to be confirmed.
It was in our terrible experience with SGM that I had to back track in my mind, “Just what did I ever say or not say?” At the end, Keith expressed to me how he didn’t like how I was so vague in most of my communication throughout our “disagreement.” And I just thought, yes, it is by design that I am vague to YOU! Keith was a master at using everything we said, against us. (He used to be an Air force Cop (Security Police)).
So, in light of that, I offer these two youtube presentations”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
They are part one and part two of the same law school class, and very informative about being wise when talking to police, or in this case with someone with power over you.
So, there ya go.
December 11th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
In response to 140. Dont misunderstand, they werent asking anybody IF it was ok Biblically to take meds. That wasnt what was going on. As the discussion was progressing and it was mentioned, that is when it took off….
I am not implying that any “sheperding” is happening…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Claireon #121…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
The Missus said,
“Even if someone appeared in my living room and rudely disagreed with me, I would still be polite to them and listen hard to try to understand what they’re saying and why they’re saying it.”
(And then you would proceed to give them an “observation” they’d NEVER forget!)
December 11th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
“There are hate sites for Windows 7 and brussel sprouts.”
As there should be…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Going back to “hate,” I hate some things SGM has stood for. I love some things SGM has stood for. I hate SGM’s leadership paradigm. I love some of the local SGM leaders I knew personally.
December 11th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
AKS – No I wouldn’t. In all my sgm years, I have never, ever “given an observation” and I’ve never had anyone try to offer me one.