Awhile back, I wrote a post entitled Dear SGM Defender. In that post - which was a sort of generic response to the folks who write me to tell me that the SGM survivors who post here don’t know what they’re talking about - I offered up some thoughts as to why one individual might be having a great time in his Sovereign Grace Ministries church, while another individual may have had a terrible time. Today I have another such topic to address.
Dear SGM Defender,
In your email, you said that I should “stop being a coward” and contact C.J. Mahaney or any of a number of other SGM leaders, so that I could hear what they have to say about what people have shared here on this site. You seem fairly confident that if I go to your leaders, they will have answers for the trail of people that have been hurt by SGM because of the organization’s authoritarian ways. They will have explanations. They will convey to me a higher understanding of what so many former members have described, and if I just “go to them” and listen to their explanations, then somehow, everything will be different.
Of all the things that mystify me about Sovereign Grace Ministries, I’d say that the cluster of assumptions behind your suggestion is at the top of my “Most Mind-Boggling” list.
I couldn’t even count how many times I’ve been asked (told) to contact SGM pastors/leaders when I either express disagreement with their teachings or permit readers to share their experiences with these men’s bad behavior. And what strikes me is that such a suggestion (“Just ask my SGM pastors/leaders to explain everything!”) presupposes a couple of things. One, of course, is that the pastor/leader is truly open to hearing stuff that could easily be construed as “negative.” Another is that the pastor/leader will be completely above-board and without guile in whatever he says.
And lastly, entering into a dialog with a particular SGM pastor/leader presupposes that the pastor/leader has some sort of authority over the situation or teaching. (Otherwise, why would we care what he has to say about it?)
I get the feeling that some SGMers simply don’t comprehend that those of us on the outside of SGM don’t believe in or trust SGM pastors/leaders the way that they do. For one thing, I don’t believe that many of these men are truly open to dissent or disagreement. Sure, they may SAY they are, and they may have recently been told to put on a “new openness” and now work a little harder to appear as though they’re actually listening to complaints. But the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and unless things change significantly to reflect that the area of concern has truly been addressed, then all that “new openness” is pretty meaningless.
Another thing: I don’t particularly believe that many SGM pastors/leaders will be completely open and without guile when dealing with their dissenters. For some of them, this is unintentional, merely the product of what they’ve been taught about how leaders behave. For some of them, though, to dissemble and deceive is quite deliberate. I’ve said this time and again, but I will repeat myself – I think it’s the height of naïveté to believe that you can count on the full and unvarnished truth from someone whom you suspect of dishonesty, simply because you ask him whether he’s telling the truth. I’m sorry, but such thinking is simply STUPID. If you have reason to believe that a person is being less than fully forthcoming with you, WHY would you think that the person is then going to turn around and be honest about his dishonesty?
Deceptive people aren’t gonna suddenly own up to their deceptiveness, just because one of their parishioners comes up and asks them about it! Duh! If you have reason to believe that someone is dishonest and/or manipulative, then chances are they will attempt to manipulate and deceive you when you confront them about it - ESPECIALLY when you confront them about it. Most of ‘em will not cave and fold like cheap lawn chairs and fully confess all, just because a member “brings an observation” to them. If anything, dishonest manipulators will merely ramp up their dishonesty and deception to another level. They will clean up the things that got you to suspect them – they will deal with the symptoms – but they will not actually address the real problems behind those symptoms.
And, like I said, some of these leaders/teachers don’t even fully grasp what they’re doing. They’ve been so indoctrinated and well-trained that they actually believe this is how ministry should be done – that THEY are “the authorities,” and it is their members’ duty to simply put up and shut up.
But yeah…
What I’m trying to get at is that I have no interest in anything that the leaders of Sovereign Grace Ministries would want to communicate about the things I’ve observed or that others have shared. It’s not anything against these leaders personally. It’s just that what the SGM defenders don’t seem to understand is that especially to those of us on the outside of SGM, what the leaders have to say holds no special authority over us.
Moreover, the opinions of those in leadership are no more valid than the opinions that we ourselves form about an issue through our own observations, through what our own eyes and ears (and guts) tell us. To believe otherwise is to embrace certain presuppositions that I think would be false.
So no, I will NOT be ringing up Corporate Headquarters in Gaithersburg anytime soon. They’re free to read here and learn whatever they can from what people have shared. They’re CERTAINLY free to turn from their previous bad behavior and faulty teachings and treat their members with respect, as true brothers and sisters in the Lord. They can implement changes – they don’t need to dialog with me to do that!
And I don’t need to dialog with them to discern what my own eyes and ears and logic tell me.
You know what else? Neither do you. Stop this foolishness of looking to your leaders to tell you what to think. Start thinking for yourself.
Sincerely,
Kris
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Well said, Kris.
Apparently the “Change is here to stay” slogan so often touted by C.J. Mahaney doesn’t apply to correcting the heavy-handed control and abuses that seem so pervasive in Sovereign Grace Ministries.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:32 pm
OK, maybe I’m Captain Obvious here but I think its worth stating:
One of the reasons that this blog exists and is as active as it is, is exactly because the leadership of SGM it not truly open to criticism and questioning from others.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
How long can SGM keep ignoring the elephant in the room?
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
CLCRefugee,
That’s a good point.
It never ceases to amaze me that people direct such heated criticisms at ME, personally, as though I’m just one big dysfunctional meanie who has decided to “make trouble” for SGM. And like I have some personal horse in this race.
This site would NEVER have turned into what it is if it hadn’t been for the hundreds of people who have either participated or written to me behind the scenes. Even now, in an odd way, the truth is that I personally DON’T REALLY CARE much about SGM. I have no “offenses” against them on a personal level. From the very beginning, I’ve only done this site because people participate and tell me these horrific stories on a regular basis. It’s not like I get anything for my time and trouble. I’m obviously not out to “make a name for myself” in some sort of odd way, or I’m pretty sure I would have plastered my picture and full identity all over the site…right?
I have a very rich and busy life full of enjoyable and rewarding tasks. I don’t “need” this blog for any reason. It’s something I do only because apparently, SGM has not done a very good job with giving their members a real and meaningful way to effect change and correct issues.
If SGM leaders are truly so humble and so open to correction, then surely, this blog and other sites like it would never have been necessary and, more interestingly, would have never have generated so much traffic.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
It takes me back to the time Keith Jacob proclaimed in one of his sermons, that he was capable of error, and hoped that someone would “love him enough” to take him aside and let him know of his error so he could stay pure in his doctrine.
Like a fisherman, he threw that bait.
Like a naive fish, I took it. (several months later)
I humbly approached in private, and asked if I had misunderstood what he had said in a recent sermon.
MAN! He got visibly angry that I would question HIM!
Let’s see here. He invited the question in love.
I asked the question in love.
He ponced on me and accused me of suspicion.
Somebody was honest in his actions, and somebody was dishonest.
An SGM defender (NOT ME!) would have a hard time saying it was the pastor who was dishonest.
Next time a pastor invites correction, and I see the need, I’m coming in Guns Blazing!
(No more mister “nice guy.”)
With Love and Guns,
Defender
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Defender,
The SGM defenders’ response to your example would probably be that we cannot say Keith Jacob’s behavior represents the norm in SGM. They’d say that it was an aberration that has been corrected because, after all, Keith was de-gifted in June of 2008.
They’d probably even cite the de-gifting as proof that SGM is changing.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:17 pm
To this: “They’d probably even cite the de-gifting as proof that SGM is changing.”
I say; “HAHAHAHAHA!”
I’d have to ask why did it take over 5 years for SGM to “discover” this “de-gifting”?
I’m talking 5 years after our infamous meeting with Keith & Steve Shank, where any “honest” Apostle could see the “lack of gifting” at that time.
Oh wait! This was an SGM Apostle.
…………never mind………..
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Kris,
To add to what you said, the overwhelming majority of stories on this site (if not all) include a description of how the abused went to a leader (Care Group and/or Pastor/Apostle) with some concern they had and the leader’s response was one of accusing them of being “unteachable” or “divisive” or pointing out some sin in them. The reason this site exists and still thrives is precisely because the leaders, when approached, have not straightened things out but made them worse by covering up “concerns” or actually abusing someone even more.
December 3rd, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Excuse my ignorance, but what is “digifting?” Must be a new SGM term way after my time. I can imagine but I appreciate any clarification. Thanks.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Okay, I’m having such fun here today, I’ll give it a shot, but I expect Kris will give a far more eloquent answer.
When an SGM pastor is put in place, he is said to be a particularly “gifted” pastor.
After too many problems are exposed to explain away, or hide, the higher-ups then “discover” that said pastor is no longer “gifted” as a pastor, and that is the reason put out to the public (congregation) as to why he is asked to step down. Not in any way a listing of particular sins or abuses.
There are accounts of pastors being asked to step down because a lack of gifting, and then after a time, being put back into pastoral authority again because he is now “gifted” again.
I am at a loss to give specifics without research right now, but I’ll bet someone else here has an explanation with more actual evidence.
I picture CJ sitting in a room with the apostles, and saying (with cotton balls in his cheeks) “This pastor is embarrassing me, I’ll make him an offer he can’t refuse.” And Voila! The pastor has mysteriously “lost” his gift!
(Okay,m I’ve seen “The Godfather” too many times.)
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Michael,
Your comment #8 brings up an excellent point, one that I’d actually meant to address in the original post.
I’d say that in the vast majority of the bad SGM situations that former members have described here, the members made HUGE efforts to go and straighten things out by talking with their pastors directly. Some of the stories recount breathtaking amounts of commitment to the pursuit of reconciliation. (A few folks have been so extreme in their efforts to please their pastors and make things right with them that it’s almost to the point where you just want to scream, “LEAVE already! These people don’t DESERVE this level of effort!)
I think that’s what a lot of SGM defenders are refusing to understand – just about ALL the survivors have done what the defenders are suggesting. Almost all of them have tried in some way to bring their concerns to their pastors.
December 3rd, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Defender did a great job of explaining the term “de-gifting,” Godfather reference and all.
The only thing I’d add is that “de-gifting” was first used here…and yeah, somewhat snarkily, maybe…
It is NOT an official SGM term.
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Kris, I think you are spot-on. For one thing, in addition to all the examples and walking wounded who have garnered courage to share their stories, we also have knowledge of CJ and other (T4G)leaders who supposedly know of these stories or have invited stories to be told for some sort of help or understanding. Go see Refuge posts for that whole thing. What a waste of sincere effort. Not on Jim & Carole’s part but on the part of anyone who saw CJ as possibly open to input.
And is there a little bit of irony in that defenders of SGM turn on you in the same way their leaders turn on someone with “concerns” ??
What is the result? Really and truly what is the result? Look at Gilbert AZ. and the tragic reports from there, with a so-called apostle right on site?
If only, if only these guys would actually consider and believe the very doctrine of sin they preach, when it comes to each other! I mean, how in the world does Mr. Harvey or Mr. Mahaney know of how Shank is actually leading or representing God, much less SGM, from 2000 miles away? Really?
From his own confessions? Really?
December 3rd, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Defender and Kris,
Thanks for explanation. And the image of Marlon Brando.
Sounds like it’s their way of glossing over a pastor going through church discipline. Sometimes they pass the test and return and sometimes they don’t. Must keep up the image that everything is hunky dory.
December 3rd, 2009 at 5:15 pm
I wonder what Tomzcak thinks of SGM these days. Besides, his public letters after he was tossed, anyone know? Has he come out with anything publicly over the years to help expose these things?
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Defended,
Yeah, the whole “worst sinner I know” mantra rings a little hollow when these same self-professed “worst sinners” don’t institute some formal system of accountability for themselves. They could – like Ted Haggard did years ago when he first founded New Life Church – make themselves legally answerable to a board of directors, or have a system of reporting to their members in some fashion. They could do that.
But they don’t.
Instead, they depend upon what is essentially the honor system. How much power can such a form of “accountability” have, anyway, when it totally depends on the leaders’ own willingness to be self-aware and completely and totally honest…or on their ability to sniff out when others in their circle are withholding something?
Would SGM leaders ever think that such a lax honor system would work in any other context?
I guess if you just repeatedly declare your “worst sinner” status, you feel like you have some sort of sin-sniffing immunity or something.
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Michael,
Larry T has maintained a low profile and has never, to the best of my knowledge, said anything overt about SGM’s issues. There are a few quotes out there (one of ‘em from a book he wrote within the past decade) where he does seem to allude to his PDI experiences. But it’s still all pretty general and vague.
December 3rd, 2009 at 6:57 pm
My sentiments exactly, Kris…
“And I don’t need to dialog with them to discern what my own eyes and ears and logic tell me. You know what else? Neither do you. Stop this foolishness of looking to your leaders to tell you what to think. Start thinking for yourself.”
I’m sorry, I know this is strong, but if you’re reading here and still in SGM and you’re not beginning to see some of this stuff for what it is, you’ve got some SERIOUS issues.
I’m sincerely praying for you.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 pm
I’m sorry, I know that I have never been to this site before, and I am not even part of SGM, but I have a lot of respect for it. I see something very wrong with what you guys are doing. All churches mess up. No pastor is perfect. No person is perfect. There are always going to be people hurt and things that are not right. I do not see how having a website set apart solely for the purpose of bashing it seems crazy to me. You call people stupid. How is this in any way profitable for anyone?
I understand you were hurt by these people, and honestly, I am sure they were wrong some of the time. I hardly think that gives you right to call people who quite obviously point people to Jesus a cult. Please understand, I am not trying to freak out on you all and call you horrible sinners. I am sure you can rip apart my postings in why I too and a horrible sinner, and why I am so wrong and you really do have a right to call them a cult. But to deny that they have done great, great things for the kingdom is wrong. Yes, there pastors mess up from time to time, but I see such fruit in that church.
I am sure you have heard posts like this a million times over, but this is crazy. We are brothers and sisters united in Christ, and this is only creating more disunity in the body. They are not “cults” for all living together. Thats fellowship. They aren’t “cults” for submitting to church authority. That is bibilical.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:31 pm
PS. Just to add one last thing. If I didn’t make this clear, I don’t think SGM is perfect, but I think it is profitable. And I think God uses it for His glory. Churches today are very lacking… and I think Sovereign Grace does what other churches fear to do, they act. I if you seemed to lovingly be trying to steer people away from SG I would be more sympathetic… but all this blog seems to be is gossip, slander, and anger. None of which are profitable.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Hey, Melissa…
If you don’t like what you see here, and don’t find it profitable, then this probably isn’t the site for you.
For the record, neither I nor my husband Guy was “hurt” by SGM. We did not have a bad SGM experience. I started this site as sort of a fluke, as a reaction to the discovery that a random post on another blog (where the discussion had gotten on the subject of SGM and then just sort of took off) had disappeared. My initial couple of posts were nothing more than my sort of ambivalent thoughts about our own journey of less than a year in an SGM church.
You can probably imagine my shock and dismay when, a couple of days later, I checked that site and discovered that several people had left comments detailing pretty bad experiences with SGM. As the months wore on and the site received amazingly high traffic, more and more people shared stories with me that all followed a pattern. It seems to me that any halfway thinking person would be able to see that pattern and think it’s cultic. SGM’s issues go WAY BEYOND your garden variety “sinful leaders who might make mistakes sometimes.” There’s a structure and an incredibly predictable way they go about doing what they do. It’s systemic and systematic.
You’re free to disagree, of course, and label everything here as (the oh-so-hackneyed) “gossip” and “slander.” You can do that. That’s cool with me. But please come up with something more original if you plan on commenting again. It’d also be nice if you actually took the time to learn a bit more about the site and the people before passing judgment and offering up correction.
December 4th, 2009 at 12:03 am
And oh yeah. I did not call any specific person “stupid.” What I said was this:
Instead of taking me to task for the use of the word “stupid,” it’d be more effective for you to explain how it’s NOT stupid to think that a dishonest person will be honest about his dishonesty, just because you ASK him about it?
I’m guessing that nobody can explain that.
Because such thinking IS stupid.
December 4th, 2009 at 6:14 am
Melissa,
I understand where you are coming from, because I too came from a non-SGM background. I actually joined my SGM church less than a year ago, after I found this site. I think that you should poke around and read some more of the stories from people on this site. It might give you a better perspective on why this site exists. I have not had a horrifying experience with SGM, in fact it is really been not too bad at all. However, I think it is important to keep discerning for myself and this site helps to do that, because SGM really isn’t that forthright with its members concerning its own internal issues.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Kyle,
Our SGM experience wasn’t bad, either. I’ve often thought that it’s pretty bizarre how we ended up being the moderators of this site, considering there are so many others out there who would have had bunches more knowledge about the people and inner workings of the SGM organization.
But anyway, the thing is, there ARE plenty of happy people within SGM, people who have never had a bad experience with their pastors or the system. I don’t necessarily think that all those folks need to get up and leave. I just believe that they should enjoy their SGM ride while being cautious and watchful. And inquisitive, although not necessarily with their pastors. Rather, they should ask around for themselves when they notice the occasional family who leaves. They should seek to know the full stories behind disappearing church members.
If they hear a teaching that feels a little “off,” they should study the topic (and the Bible) for themselves. And yes, they can go to their pastors and ask about the teaching. But for heaven’s sake (literally), they shouldn’t just stop there.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, if someone is currently happy in his SGM church, I’m not sure why this site would be a threat to him. Kyle’s got the right idea – keep in mind that the bad stuff recounted here absolutely did happen. Be on the lookout for stuff that resembles the patterns that I believe are clearly evident in all the stories. Study Scripture for yourself. Be a Berean. And above all, don’t just ask your pastor what you should think about stuff. Read other books that are not sold at the church bookstore or book table. Keep connected with the broader Christian world.
And if you DO end up seeing something hinky in your SGM church, don’t just shrug it off and try to forget about it. Take a stand. Speak up. I get email all the time from current SGMers who don’t want to leave their tight social circle and all the SGM people they’ve grown to love…so their goal is to work for change within SGM. I tell them they should go for it. As the Harris Twins would say, “Do Hard Things.” Try to be the voice of the average member. Push for a change in church government…ask, for instance, to see financial statements, and then press for more details if you see something like a category for “conference expenses” and it tallies up to be more than your family’s yearly income. Especially if assistance to the needy is a pale shadow of such conference expenses. Stuff like that. Those are the hard questions that need to be asked.
Use what you learn here to keep yourself from turning into a Sovereign Grace survivor.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Dear friends, some of us who are members of SGM want to be more than Survivors. We want to be Thrivers. And we want our fellow believers in SGM to thrive, too, not by leaving their but by seeing their congregations transformed by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. The tone on this blog is off-putting sometimes (as is the tone in SGM sometimes but certainly not always), but thanks for helping to equip us to address the issues and letting us know we are not alone in our struggles and concerns. I am asking each of you who read on this board to fervently intercede for your dear brothers and sisters in Sovereign Grace, especially the pastors and care group leaders! These are not easy jobs and I’m sure some of them realize they are in over their heads and don’t know where to turn. Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but it is spiritual warfare to tear down strongholds (not people or programs) and to lovingly build up the body of Christ wherever it is found, in SGM or out. In all you do and say, let yourself be controlled not by fear, angst, anger, or pride — but by the sweet and dynamic Holy Spirit and by the compassion of Jesus, our Friend and Redeemer.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Hey Melissa,
I think it helps to know that the entire purpose of this site is one-sided. It exists to expose the bad things that have happened to people.
The site never states that this is the only side of things. There are many good things that happen in SG, and that fact is acknowledged here, but not focused on. The focus of this site is to point out abuses and problem areas. And as Kris has said before, if you want to be on a site that sings the praises of SG while ignoring any bad stuff (which is also one sided)
there are plenty of sites available to you.
That being said, this site is a tremendous help to those of us still in SG churches. If you know the pitfalls, you can watch for them. The pitfalls are real. Real people fall into them and are really hurt.
It is really weird, too, as longtime members of SG to read the stories on this site and be sick when you realize what happened to people you knew, and to keep recognizing people behind their “pen-names”.
Weird in a bad way. How scary to realize your toddlers in children’s ministry may have been taken on a bathroom break with a teen pedophile with the church’s knowledge of his prior activities!
Because we knew these people, we know they are not liars, gossipers, or just have complaining personalities who always find faults whether real or imagined.
(FYI we are now in another area and are no longer in the particular church where these events took place.)
Someone once said-could it have been Jesus?-that the truth sets you free.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:32 am
QE2 -
December 4th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Tonic – you kind of took the words right out of my mouth – excellent post!!
I just want to say thanks for this forum – not that I agree 100% with everything posted or the way it is said, but I am grateful that there is somewhere that you can speak frankly about the issues without fearing you are gossiping or slandering. In theory it is better to talk with your pastor and such about these things, but if he is the one causing you grief than it is really nice to know that there are people who understand and even if they cannot fix the problems can tell you that you’re not alone.
December 4th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
BTW, totally off topic but something I thought y’all might find interesting… my uncle was an SGM pastor for a bit
senior pastor of a church, but then he stepped down because he wasn’t gifted for the job… and i would agree there. he is a great man, but not the most caring, and i legitimately think he wasnt meant to be a pastor for long 
December 4th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Melissa,
You remind us to “speak the truth in love.” Thank you. But the truth has to be told. Some of the negative things folks see in SGM is very subtle and to those who don’t see it, calling it out may appear petty and mean-spirited. But underneath, there is spiritual abuse going on. When you see first hand people hurt by it, you know it’s real. Abuse needs a clear, firm response. The intention of this site is not to cast stones but to encourage those who have been abused, enable them to forgive and move on, and hopefully prevent future abuse from occurring.
December 4th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Thanks to all of you in SGM who have expressed appreciation for the site.
I see it as “tough love” with my SGM brothers and sisters. At times it’s tough being the one administering the “tough love.”
It’s very encouraging to have some SGM folks express their gratitude.
December 4th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I’ll give a hearty amen for Kris’ post in 24…
I actually joined my SGM church after going there a year AND reading quite a bit on this site, and I agree that this site should not be threatening to people who are indeed having good experiences in SG. I appreciate everyone’s stories and analysis because it helps me keep on my toes and make sure I’m not just blindly succumbing to the inviting culture and teachings.
Some of the things that are said here are startling, but I’ve had positive experiences in talking to people about my church and talking to my pastors about my concerns from this website. NOT because I want to know what to think about them, but because I want to know what THEY think about them. So far their answers have been satsifying, or I wouldn’t still be a member there. This site has kept me going back to the Bible for answers, and for that I am grateful. =)
I also think that sometimes the critique is simply wrong when I go back to the Bible for answers, but I leave it with respect for the people here, knowing that we’re all Christians and we simply disagree on some non-salvation issues. Its kept me sharp and helped me be more assured in my faith.
That being said, this site has made me aware of some major issues in my church and definitely motivated me to make changing those a part of my contribution there as a member. So far people are humbly responsive. I wish that all could have an SGM experience like mine! Alas…
Cheers to our bonds as brothers and sisters in Christ despite disagreements and conflict.
December 4th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Oh, and I missed this before, but AMEN to Tonic!
“I am asking each of you who read on this board to fervently intercede for your dear brothers and sisters in Sovereign Grace, especially the pastors and care group leaders…… OUR BATTLE IS NOT AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD, but it is spiritual warfare to tear down strongholds (not people or programs) and to lovingly build up the body of Christ wherever it is found, in SGM or out. In all you do and say, let yourself be controlled not by fear, angst, anger, or pride — but by the sweet and dynamic Holy Spirit and by the compassion of Jesus, our Friend and Redeemer.”
Wonderful point! Shout it from the rooftops!
December 4th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Thanks, Tonic, post #25 was so encouraging. I am one of the ones whose eyes were opened but feel led at this time to remain within SGM. My husband and I are trying to share His grace from within and pray with others for His Spirit to move in power.
December 4th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
QE2,
I agree with Kris!
December 4th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Kris wrote:
“Use what you learn here to keep yourself from turning into a Sovereign Grace survivor.”
(Sorry, I still don’t know how to do the fancy quote thing.)
I want to be quick to point out, as others have before, that being an SGM survivor isn’t the same thing as being an SGM, umm, casualty. I’m really blessed to see the present SGM members who are stopping by and learning to think hard and use discernment about their churches. (And many more have to be stopping by for each one who comments.) Many of them aren’t leaving SGM, and that’s okay! I’d suggest that being an “SGM survivor” ought to be the ideal outcome, as whether or not you remain in your Sovereign Grace church, you grasp the real grace and the real Gospel and you give it back to the people around you, even if you ruffle a few feathers in the process. You’ll be one of those “thinking members,” and God will give grace for that.
It also means that if you get kicked out, you’ll at least have already been aware of the issues behind it, the very real problems SGM has, and look at the situation realistically. Some of the greatest pain for dismembered SGM folks is having their bubble burst concerning a church/denomination they may well have thought was perfect.
I took the second route! I’m not a member of SGM anymore, and while I still have family ties and affection for many people in those churches, I’m excited to see what God has for me in a more liturgical denomination. I never had a bad experience in Sovereign Grace, and I’m a SGM survivor too! God moves people as He chooses. But, Kris, thank you again for continuing to run this blog to education both SGM and non-SGM folks alike. Let’s walk in the light.
December 4th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
I wasn’t kicked out, just to clarify. I withdrew by the proper channels and I have a good relationship with my former pastor there. But I left.
“Love and Guns.” Defender, you’re my hero.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Kris,
“…it’s the height of naïveté to believe that you can count on the full and unvarnished truth from someone whom you suspect of dishonesty,.. If you have reason to believe that a person is being less than fully forthcoming with you, WHY would you think that the person is then going to turn around and be honest…? ”
Well said!
Also, those who think that someone from SGM “headquarters” will actually respond to the issues raised here is equally naive. Seriously, if you thought that you were being “atacked” by someone, would you openly admit your faults to them and give them more ammo to you against you? At this point it seems that SGM leadership has closed the castle gate and holed themselves up in the keep. Perhaps in the hope that all this will just go away if they ignore it. But like so many poitical scandals the ignoring the problem just makes it worse, becasue the media just keeps picking at the chink in the the wall until the dam breaks and the flood of corruption breaks loose.
I agree w/ QE2 that expecting this site to be other than one sided is unrealistic. Although, being an unabashed idealist, I’m not giving up hope that even though as Kris said to me earlier that she will not “sing it’s (SGM’s) praises” here that at least there will be some acknowledgement of the work of the Holy Spirit in SGM that does produce fruit to the glory of God.
Enjoying God’s grace and being the worst sinner I know!
December 4th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Defender,
We do know each other, I led a CG after you guys moved. Check your FB for a friend.
December 4th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Gameliel,
You said, “God moves people as He chooses”. I can’t agree more. God has directed my path in choice of church, employment, and domicile through both unmistakable and subtle ways.
I have always found that it was He who moved me and that Jeremiah 29:11 is true for all who are “called according to His purpose” Rom 8:28.
So to anyone who is questions where God wants you to go or why He has you in the place you are, be assured that His guidance, unlike that of mere men, is flawless and even if the curcumstances you are in are not “good” now you have His promise that they will result in your good.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
Defending SGM?
You can’t defend against the things that God Himself comdemns. A confessed child molester would have been stoned to death under the Law, Working to protect him from criminal prosecution is not charitable judgement and opens the church up to its accusers. That is why in Romans it says that the govering authorities are appointed by God and that we are to submit to them. Our pastors and church leaders should be leading us in this! God is glorified by His wrath on the unrighteous as well as His mercy and grace on the righteous.
December 4th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Merlin…#41…
You can’t defend against the things that God Himself condemns.
And let’s not forget the moving a pastor to plant a new church after his teenage son committed sexual assault against a teenage girl! And glorifying God is all they care about? Maybe not…..
December 4th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Kris,
Thanks for your posts, especially this past one. Your points are so true–I have learned the hard way.
These points do not just apply to church authorities, but to other authorities as well, such as at work. I must admit to the naivete that you mention–somehow I thought that if I could just explain to Boss X what the issues are, then Boss X will see the light. But Boss X has his own agenda and tasks, and “seeing” issues that he doesn’t see and resolving them are not part of his agenda.
That’s why it was helpful for me to read what you said about dishonesty and manipulation. I don’t think it would be good for me to confront my boss about certain issues because he really doesn’t want to be told about them, especially from me. Fortunately (thanks be to God), I have spoken to other executives about these issues, and they are listening and responding.
As Jesus told his disciples in Mt. 10:16, “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Being shrewd and innocent is quite the balancing act, and yet that is what we are called to be.
Paul warned that in Acts 20:29-30: “I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.”
It is important to know the truth in order to recognize when it is being distorted. This blog does a good job in speaking the truth. After being deceived for so many years that I must think the SGM way in order to be a good Christian, I am grateful for the truth.
Merlin,
Your #40 post was encouraging to me. Thanks!
December 5th, 2009 at 2:02 am
MERLIN!
Check YOUR FB page. You got a PM from me.
Holy Cow it’s good to re-connect with you!
I forgot you were a CG leader in Manassas.
(I remember hearing that now.)
AND I do totally agree with your post #40.
God is Sovereign in all our affairs. And it is the most exciting life anyone could ask for.
Your friend and brother,
Defender
December 5th, 2009 at 7:53 am
I love it when folks “find one another” on the site.
It’s also not good that many SGM members “disappear” without anyone ever knowing why (or the real reason why). SGM is finding out they can’t “silence the negative” forever. Kris, I’m sure you’re amazed at the different ways God uses this site.
Gamaliel, it’s good to “see” you again. Thanks for the update.
December 6th, 2009 at 6:23 am
It sure has been a quiet weekend on this blog so far.
December 6th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Kris,
Do we have even one example of a leader taking the encouragement from the Leader’s Conference 09′ of attempting to reconcile with a former member they had a conflict with that occurred within the last five years?
I haven’t heard of one, but of course this would require them to acknowledge they had sinned in the conflict.
Wayfaring Men
December 6th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
I had a pastor contact me, and he made a special trip to come see me. He had since moved to another state to pastor another SGM church. We are indeed reconciled. I consider him a very good friend. However, the other pastor in question has not, and probably will not. He also has moved to another (different) state.
December 6th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
I forgot to add that I don’t think it was the leadership conference that prompted the first pastor to do this. He did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. During our discussion we didn’t see eye-to-eye on too many SGM issues, but we did come away reconciled and with a continued friendship that I value.
December 7th, 2009 at 1:27 am
Kris,
You are dead on with all of this. There is NO accountability between the pastors and the congregation. My experience at CFC of asking questions about certain practices exhibited by the pastors was met with the typical response that I’m spreading rumors and gossiping.
Imagine the audacity they have in handing out these “how good are you” tracts to people! Guilt tripping unbelievers and then telling them there is hope to be found at the SGM church. Or imagine the mind control of convincing numerous families to go through the hassel of relocating in order to plant a church (in an area of middle to high income of course). SGM represents everything that is wrong with Christianity.
December 7th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Re: #42
Is this true?
December 7th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Someone who is on a vocabulary (word of the day) email list sent me this word and definition:
myrmidon \MUR-muh-don; -duhn\, noun:
1. (Capitalized) A member of a warlike Thessalian people who followed Achilles on the expedition against Troy.
2. A loyal follower, especially one who executes orders without question.
From all the discussion I have seen here, sadly it sure seems like SGM wants and has produced a number of myrmidons.
December 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Wayfaring – #47 – What is this about? Is the recording available?
Were you there?
sigh…..haven’t most who need to reconcile been de-gifted, thus not attending leadership weekends?
I heard Shank tell KJacob to go and apologize to others for something and it never happened, while he (KJ) was on the payroll, so, uh, no, it’s not likely ever, lest God truly intervenes. Not something as big as true reconciliation.
Yet, if there are actual events of this happening among others I would LOVE to hear of it.
December 7th, 2009 at 11:52 am
I agree Goodfellow, and that really isn’t an exaggeration either. Judgement begins in the house of the Lord and I don’t see Jesus coming back for his bride until things like SGM are swept out the door. The sooner the better!
December 7th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Yes Clarion, I agree.
I was in a discussion yesterday about how the Church in general is so “all over the map” and many are preaching “another gospel.” God needs to clean His house.
This fella I was in conversation with is a scientist and is remarking how the scientific community is moving away from atheism, but not necessarily to Christianity. Too much of the christian (small C) churches are not preaching the true gospel, and we are in danger of our nation becoming majority pagan.
SGM is in that camp, where they are not building the Kingdom of God, but rather the kingdom of SGM (or CJ.)
I’m telling people to start carrying a black Sharpie in their pocket. When “they” come to behead you for following Jesus, just pull the Sharpie, make a dotted line around your neck and say, “Please cut along the dotted line.”
Just my 2 cents…….
December 7th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
About #42…
This topic has come up before. Here are some old comments I tracked down in which the situation was discussed:
————
———
—————–
Over the past few months, since those comments were first posted, several people have written to share their thoughts.
One person wanted to point out that what CJ and the PDI folks might have classified as a “sexual transgression” might actually NOT have been considered such a thing by those in the “normal” church world. IF this thing happened, it happened at the height of PDI’s almost paranoid teachings against any physical contact whatsoever between the sexes. In that context, what would have been viewed as “inappropriate” could have been highly exaggerated.
And the bottom line is that we simply cannot know. Some have suggested approaching the families in question and flat-out asking them. I’m thinking that, once again, IF this thing actually did happen in this way – with PDI’s coming up with money to compensate a victim, and a pastor with a desire to protect his son above all (particularly if the pastor believed that the accusations against his son were either unfounded or unfair) – then this would be the very reason why said pastor has remained basically silent as to the specifics behind his departure. I don’t think “just asking” would do much to get to the truth.
But of all the stories swirling around the departure, this is one explanation that would clear up certain mysteries.
December 7th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Kris said:
“The young man in question has gone on to clean up his act and graduate from an Ivy League university. He’s apparently highly successful today and has (I assume) stayed out of further trouble. So good for him.”
First of all, like you have said these are only allegations. There is no real proof that this actually happened but certainly would explain a lot of things. These are serious allegations.
I wouldn’t equate going to an Ivy League school to mean that pastor’s son has “cleaned up his act.” One could certainly attend and graduate from an Ivy League school and continue to do what this pastor’s son allegedly did. He could be a good student without morals or as some would say a womanizer.
For example a fairly recent president allegedly had a number of “affairs” with women (over the age 18) and had a law degree from an Ivy League school. Thus attending a an Ivy League doesn’t necessarily mean that this son stopped doing what he allegedly did. The two can be separate.
In contrast if one reads the Washington Times article on the one pastor leaving what was then called PDI, the pastor says “There was admittance as to wrongdoing as to the way he (pastor’s son) was treated, I and my wife wait for the same thing to be admitted to us.” That pastor who left PDI seems to be indicating that the group admitted treating the pastor’s son wrong and apologized, perhaps saying he didn’t what was some allege. This is quite a contradiction to the rumors one hears.
I am guessing we will never know the real truth this side of eternity. There certainly is a contradiction.
December 7th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Kris, I appreciate learning through this website about what really happened with the Tomczak/Mahaney split. Of course, with so much emphasis on SGM leaders having to be perfect with perfect kids, something had to be done about the Tomczak situation. Who knows what could have been. Likely the Tomczak’s themselves contributed to the whole condition. One thing we can be sure of is that whatever all the details of the case are, PDI certainly wasn’t the kind of place where problems like that could be worked out honestly and with the help of outsiders. All they could do is address the issue as one of sin.
So, whats the worst sin? For a young person to fall into transgression and then not get the help and attention he needs? Or for the whole issue to be completely covered up and obscured so that no one in the entire congregation knows what really happened? And for the problem to be kept quiet to the point where other innocent people were victimized?
And now we see CJ pontificating about Tiger Woods and his sexual transgressions, instructing people how and how not to talk about the whole issue:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Blog/post/Hunting-Tiger-Woods.aspx
December 7th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Steve and Claireon -
Just to be clear, there is no way to know the full truth. And yes, the story about the pastor’s son is merely that – a story.
The thing is, though, that long before “Set Free” emailed me her account of what happened to her (in which she alludes to her knowledge of the second situation with the pastor’s son), I’d heard similar things from a couple of other people who seem to have had insider knowledge of what went down. One person in particular wrote to me in such a way that what she said just seemed to explain everything.
And that’s why I bring it up here. I think Larry T’s departure has generated more emails and more discussion than any other topic, since the site’s earliest days. He apparently has a HUGE fan base, even still, even after a decade away from the PDI spotlight. He is very much loved.
From the beginning, a lot of people disillusioned with SGM have seemed to see Larry T as a mutual victim of the system, and of CJ’s quest to dominate and control the organization. People have seemed so convinced that Lary T was the total wronged party, the completely innocent victim.
There was chatter about why Larry had remained silent all these years…why he never fully spelled out what had happened to him and his family, why he never “dished the dirt” on PDI and CJ. Larry’s fans seemed so sure that there was dirt to be dished…that Larry was the casualty of CJ’s ambition and power-mongering. I can remember once when the idea was suggested that CJ/PDI had somehow “bought” Larry’s silence…that perhaps Larry had received something like a buy-out to leave quietly and not make trouble for PDI by starting his own competing ministry.
The picture of Larry as victim – and of Larry’s getting a buy-out – never really fit all the facts as we understood them, though. Here are those facts (again, as we understand them):
1. Larry was a co-founder of PDI.
2. Larry is no longer with the organization.
3. A full and complete explanation of Larry’s departure was never given to the general public.
4. There are several statements here and there from people who knew the T family (and I even think a statement that Larry himself made in his book) in which the T family was portrayed as suffering greatly financially after their departure…making it EXTREMELY unlikely that the T family received any sort of financial compensation from PDI during this time.
5. Larry never began a competing ministry and has, relatively speaking, “laid low” since his departure from PDI.
6. Larry has never spoken out about the full story of what happened to him, despite the huge amount of sympathy that he’s got to know would be there for him if he were a true victim of CJ and the system.
7. Larry was, until recently, written out of SGM’s history. Things were made to sound as though SGM had been founded by CJ alone. Although this could be inaccurate, I believe it was at CLC’s anniversary celebration a few years ago that Larry’s picture was actually cropped out of some photos of the very earliest days of TAG/Gathering Of Believers.
8. CJ Mahaney is a smart man.
9. CJ Mahaney is unlikely to be so blinded by ambition that he’d ever make a move that would jeopardize SGM’s standing in the broader Christian community. To me, it stands to reason that if Larry’s contributions as one of the co-founders of SGM are going to be downplayed or downright wiped out of SGM’s history, CJ has a VERY GOOD REASON for permitting such a thing to happen. In other words, whatever CJ believes Larry to have done to necessitate Larry’s departure, it had to be something pretty darn serious in CJ’s mind. Or CJ would NEVER take such a P.R. risk.
So…
What scenario would fit all these facts the best?
What would have been so horrible as to cause CJ to believe that Larry needed to be wiped out of SGM’s history…while at the same time leading Larry to maintain his relative silence on the specifics of the matter…while at the same time not leading to any financial gains for Larry?
This is one explanation that fits all those facts.
Is the explanation itself fact? No. As of now, it’s merely one theory, one set of allegations.
And there’s no way we’ll ever know for sure, unless a victim were to come forth and demonstrate somehow that her silence had been bought. Or unless someone who’d been privy to the details of such a transaction were to come forward and spill what they know. Or unless the parties themselves were to decide to share the details with the public.
December 7th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Claireon,
I saw that post that CJ wrote about Tiger Woods.
I couldn’t believe my eyes.
(Well – actually – yes, I could believe my eyes. I mean, I know what *I* saw in CJ’s blog article, but I’m guessing few others picked up on it.)
Here you have this guy (CJ) pontificating about how we must refrain from allowing ourselves to have a prurient interest in Tiger’s transgressions…we are to refrain from using such celebrity gossip for our entertainment, for our own purposes.
For the record, by the way, I don’t disagree with CJ.
But I just think it’s EXTREMELY ironic that CJ would do essentially the very thing that he’s telling his audience NOT to do.
See, it seems to me that CJ Mahaney himself simply piggy-backed his blog post onto a story that he knew would garner attention for himself, would get people linking to his blog because it was so “current events.” CJ used the Tiger story – the automatic eye-catching aspect of having Tiger Woods’ name in the title of a blog post – for his own ends.
Maybe it wasn’t for entertainment. But it was prurient nonetheless.
Are there really that many people in CJ’s target audience who struggle with a weakness for celebrity gossip? I doubt it. So if CJ isn’t writing to address a REAL need, then he’s writing about Tiger Woods for his own purposes.
December 7th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Kris, excellent points – both about the Tomczak/Mahaney split and CJ’s blog post about Tiger Woods.
The mind control is mind-boggling.
About the Tomczak case…the whole cover-up aspect made a lot of sense, especially in light of the charges. I was in PDI, at CLC, during the time it all went down. Rumor was there were charges of dishonesty on Tomczak’s part, an apparently unwillingness to come clean of something. But the details were kept quiet, and when the announcement was made that the Tomczak’s would be relocating, everyone was told to not ask questions and to just trust the leadership. Period. End of discussion.
Now it would seem, given the insights, that CJ might almost seem exonerated or vindicated. A hero. Tomczak needed to go, and it would seem for good reason. And no wonder that he’s not talking because there’s still something he prefers to hide. I would agree that honesty is an important characteristic of those who are chosen to lead people into an understanding of God’s truths.
That being said, what about all the information that is withheld from people in SGM nowadays? Where is the justification for that sort of behavior? To say its the way SGM has chosen to define their leadership structure is nonsense. Isn’t everything they do supposed to be “biblical” and “gospel-centered”? Where does the bible say that church leadership is to based on a hierarchy, with those in membership given no authority or the power to question or affect change?
Perhaps in SGM, any hint of sexual sin is the big kahoonah and that’s why CJ (with the help of a ghost writer) can address those things and instruct this readers about how they are allowed to discuss it themselves.
Perhaps CJ might want to address another hot topic: Climategate – and the sin of manipulating information and hiding the truth from others in order to make a profit from the unsuspecting believers.
Just sayin’
December 7th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
I should also mention that I don’t doubt there were also theological differences between CJ and Larry T, differences that no doubt made the split more of a no-brainer.
It seems to me that “unity” and “peace-keeping” to protect PDI’s “good name” were just so ingrained in the culture that CJ was willing to do a lot to try and keep the situation contained, even despite the ways that his and Larry’s views were diverging. But once there was the alleged second transgression – after PDI’s alleged payola for the alleged first – even CJ couldn’t brook any more accommodations to sustain the illusion that PDI was above dissension and splits. Larry T simply had to go.
If this whole thing did happen in this way, can you just imagine the quandary in which CJ found himself? It’d be funny if it weren’t so tragic.
If he revealed the alleged first incident and subsequent alleged payola (to protect “Christ’s” reputation, of course), that would probably kick off a horrible scandal. But not disclosing it would make him appear to be engaging in strong-arm tactics to consolidate his power and oust Larry. I guess he figured he could preach the Happiest Place On Earth sermon bunches o’ times, pretend Larry T had never existed, and just hope for the best.
It says a lot about CJ’s force of personality, that he pretty much pulled it off.
December 7th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
One interesting item that I recall from listening to some of the older TAG tapes about Tomczak/Mahaney is that back in the early years of TAG, the two men discovered that they were hiding various Christian books from each other. This is going back before 1976. Not sharing the books was a way for at least one of them to look better than the other person. As they say, knowledge is power.
It might have been one hiding from the other; I don’t remember all the specifics but as I recall both were doing it. They reported that it finally came to a head and they both went and prayed for a while and then reconciled promising not to do this to each other etc. Who knows what really transpired during the years the two men were together. Both men shared this event in their messages at various times.
Thus even back then there was some type of rivalry that would apparently later show up. Put another way, their relationship was probably always colored by a streak of competitiveness. As one would say, typically, two “alpha males” aren’t able to share the same turf. No matter what the real story was behind the CJ/Larry split, it’s not a huge surprise that their seemingly “perfect partnership” eventually ended.
December 7th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Steve,
I think you’ve touched on something interesting. And that is that it would actually be really abnormal for guys like Tomczak and Mahaney to have cultivated such an ideal, exemplary friendship.
It’s almost like CJ and the other SGM leaders hold themselves up to an unattainable, unreachable standard of perfection. It would have been so much more NORMAL for CJ to have just admitted that he and Larry T had had “irreconcilable differences” and had to part ways (if such were the case). Instead, things had to be all spiritualized, with silence commanded all around. “The commoners may not talk about leadership,” and such.
December 7th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Off topic, but I saw on Carolyn McCulley’s blog today that Covenant Life is launching a new church in Arlington VA in a few months. Carolyn will be joining this church. http://solofemininity.blogs.com/posts/
Does anyone have any additional information about this? Does this mean that the church planting team will have to sell their homes (in this terrible market) in Maryland and purchase new homes in Virginia? I also found it curious that the launching team is coming from Covenant Life, and not from the SGM church in Fairfax.
I live in Arlington, and the funny thing is I know of at least three strong evangelical churches that launched in Arlington in 2009! One Presbyterian, and two Anglican. Not to mention the strong evangelical churches that already existed, such as Cherrydale Baptist and Frontline Arlington. Arlington is not lacking in good churches.
I am not, nor have I ever been an SGMer, but I find their practices fascinating…
December 7th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Kris said
“And that is that it would actually be really abnormal for guys like Tomczak and Mahaney to have cultivated such an ideal, exemplary friendship.”
That is a good point.
I always wondered why Tomczak moved from the “flagship” church to Fairfax which is only an hour away from the “flagship” location when Tomczac’s ministry was more of serving the whole “association” vs. being a local pastor at Fairfax. It certainly didn’t appear to make much sense. One possibility is that the friction between Tomczak/Mahaney became so much that one of them needed to move.
Of course people have suggested another possible reason for Tomczak and his family moving. At the time of Tomczak’s moving his oldest child couldn’t have been older than 14 and I believe barely have turned 13. To me that seems like a little young for what is alleged to have happened or perhaps what happened was exaggerated as Kris indicated in comment 56 might have happened .
Again we will probably never know this side of eternity.
December 7th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
I personally find CJ Mahaney fascinating.
When it’s all said and done (and one day it will be) all that will have been written about him will make for an interesting read.
Some SGMers occasionally make the remark that “their” church rarely even mentions CJ’s name. I have to chuckle. They really have no idea.
December 7th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Welcome “Anonymous in Northern VA”…
Yep…nothing new there! It must be a pretty serious plant if Carolyn McCulley’s going. Are there any other “SGM celebrities” going?
December 7th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Totally off topic here…but…I just have to wonder….
Why oh why do I get a smathering of the fancy things the “A Team” is up to? A month or so ago, a uppity up in the SGM administration team was on a several-days “planning” trip to Orlando. And in the past couple weeks, I have several Facebook updates from “friends” who are related in one way or another with the “A Team” who has had their annual “conference” in Orlando.
They have wonderful pictures: balloon rides over Disney, fancy restaurants, fun and games at Disney parks. And some status updates about the meetings they are attending.
I’m wondering how much SGM gives for benevolence. I’m wondering how much SGM gives back to their churches that are struggling. I’m wondering WHY in this economy, can those men, in good conscience, send a “scout” to plan the trip and then take all the guys down there for their “conference.” Why, oh why?
Normal companies rent out a conference center in the mountains. SGM goes DISNEY …. every year….
Why?
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming…..
December 8th, 2009 at 12:19 am
Kris,
This is random, but I frequently have folks ask me for the names of pastors and ministries that might be aligned with SGM to some degree in some of the areas of concern discussed on the site.
I get questions like…”Who can I trust?”; “Do you think this guy or ministry is headed in the same direction?”; “How cautious should I be of some of the ministries and organizations I see *consistently* linked on SGM sites and blogs?”; “What books from the “SGM approved list” should I actually throw out?”; “I’m beginning to hear some “SGMeze phrases” and observing some “SGM oddities” within my own church – should I be concerned?”…and the list goes on.
Could you put together some type of post on the topic sometime in the future worded in such a way that folks could comment along these lines? That way people could read their comments and decide for themselves who they feel comfortable trusting and who they might want to steer clear of, or at least be VERY cautious with.
I’m not talking about a “witch hunt,” or a “guilty by association” type thing. I think most of the commenters here know the difference and understand what I’m talking about. Some pastors and ministries would be pretty obvious. Others would fall under the “questionable” or “cautious” category. And naturally all those listed would simply be “a suggestion” as such, based on one’s “personal” experience or observation.
You may not be comfortable with “naming names.” If so, I understand.
I’ll go ahead and name a controversial one that will get a lot of tomatoes thrown at me…John Piper. I was a Piper fan for years, and have benefited from many of his books and sermons; but he’s DEFINITELY one of the “Reformed Big Dogs” that I now have my eyes on. I’m now more of a “Berean” and I’m scrutinizing his works in light of scripture rather than “blindly” following EVERYTHING he says. Piper certainly can’t help the fact that SGM promotes virtually every book he’s ever written, and that he and CJ run in many of the same circles, but he also can’t blame folks if they’re a little cautious after discovering such.
Obviously we should be a “Berean” when it comes to ANY pastor or ministry.
December 8th, 2009 at 6:29 am
My momma would always say, “Be careful who you run around with.”
It may be unfair, but some of the “Reformed Big Dogs” might want to step back and take a GOOD LOOK at themselves to see if it “even appears” they’re supporting certain “SGM teachings and practices” or possibly even beginning to adopt some of them as their own. I’ve actually been surprised to find that as I take a closer look, every now and then I find one that’s on the same page on a few of the issues. I’m not exactly sure “who stole what from whom.” Certainly SGM can afford to be bolder with it due to the fact that they have a “controlled” group.
These certainly are “Berean” days.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Hey, “Anonymous in Northern VA” -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I don’t know too much about that church plant, except that it appears to be attracting a younger crowd (so maybe, considering what the real estate market has been over the past several years in Gaithersburg, those couples and families don’t yet own houses that they’ll have to sell).
Also, something else interesting is that the word on the street is that maybe – just maybe – this church is going to be governed by elected elders!
Still, no matter how “innovative” (in quotes, because really, church government by the people is nothing radical, except in SGMville and maybe some Communist countries
) and no matter how young, I still hold that when you go and (trans)plant a church in an area where there are plenty of other decent churches, this move by definition has to be about advancing the
denominationand not so much about advancing the cause of Christ.December 8th, 2009 at 8:19 am
Sidney,
RE your comment #69, I think those leaders are just demonstrating how clueless they are about what life is like for a lot of people these days…and furthermore, how confident they are that none of their people would ever question them for spending ministry funds on holding their strategy meetings in what is an unnecessarily expensive venue.
They’re cluelessly confident.
But y’know, it kind of goes back to my post. I think these guys are this way because they’re so infrequently challenged and questioned by their people. It’s probably never even occurred to them that they should be more discreet about spending organization dollars on what amounts to a fun vacation (with some meetings thrown in). They post photos of themselves doing extravagant activities because nobody has ever challenged ‘em on this stuff before.
And, I think with what SGM teaches about authority and pastors – CJ’s twisting of the passage in Hebrews to read like it’s the people’s responsibility to “make their pastors’ job a joy” – these guys just have a sense of entitlement about some things.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:23 am
A church governed by elected elders! Wow! That would be a refreshing change in the SGM world. I recently looked into the Mariners’ church system and found that they have both pastors (who build up the body so that it functions properly) and a board of elders (who basically oversee the vision of the church). I’d love to see that happen at SGM.
According to the announcement we heard about the Arlington church, the main thrust of their ministry will be to the thousands of singles who live in the Rosslyn area. I didn’t know that Covenant Life was doing the planting but supposedly there will be people from FCC as well.
As to SGM preaching “another gospel,” I am not seeing that at my church and if anyone were to check out the book store I think it would be very evident that the true gospel is being preached. Even this past Sunday, Mark Mullery was talking about members of our church being blessed by sermons on-line so I don’t think he has a problem with members of SGM hearing teachings outside the SGM family.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Kindred,
I get a lot of email asking me similar sorts of questions. And honestly, I never know what to say.
I am extremely uncomfortable with saying that this or that ministry should be on some sort of “watch list” because of their association with SGM. For the most part, I am confident that most of the Reformed Big Dogs merely share the stage with CJ and have never really dug much deeper or questioned much of anything about SGM. I don’t think the RBDs have any sort of real concept of what goes on at the “local church” level – and if they hear of church discipline situations, or even if people try to send them to this site, they filter what they hear and read through what they THINK they know. They use the commonly accepted definitions of certain terms, rather than the “loaded language” of SGM.
Matter of fact, back in the site’s early days, I emailed someone who works closely with a particular RBD. I was so alarmed at what people were telling me about SGM, and I was stupefied over how that RBD could appear to endorse SGM. So I wrote one of the RBD’s associates and expressed my concern.
The person wrote back and plainly said that the RBD in question knew little about the daily workings of actual SGM churches. All the RBD really had to go on was the face CJ presented to the public through his conference talks and his writings. Basically, the guy was saying that his RBD’s association with CJ and SGM should not be viewed as some sort of endorsement.
Which, of course, is fascinating, because I cannot even begin to count the number of times SGM defenders write me and say things like, “Kris, you are so totally WRONG about SGM! After all, John Piper and Mark Dever know that SGM is OK! What’s the matter with you? You’re arrogant if you think you know more than John Piper!”
SGM defenders clearly see these RBDs’ association with CJ as endorsements of him and SGM.
I don’t see it that way.
I think the RBDs are pretty much in the dark about the subtle layers of what SGM does.
It reminds me a little of the Bernie Madoff (Ponzi scheme guy) scandal. Madoff, too, used reflected credibility to gain trust.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Mack,
I didn’t say that SGM was preaching “another gospel” – I said that the planting of more SGM churches in already-heavily-churched areas was more about promoting SGM than promoting the gospel.
Big difference.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Kris,
I wasn’t pointing a finger at you specifically but there was mention of another gospel in one of the posts above. By the way, I agree with you that SGM’s church planting methods leave much to be desired. Their attitude is definitely one of superiority and pride. The church plants are always done in up and coming neighborhoods. It would be great to see a church plant in a down and out neighborhood where the members could really do some good for the people.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:47 am
But…
To continue my thought from #76…
I do think that SGM’s church-planting strategies (and viewing those church plants as “missions”) reflect a basic assumption about how necessary SGMers believe participation in SGM churches to be to a successful Christian life.
I would issue a challenge to SGMers to examine how much actual evangelism – reaching the unreached, those who have never known Christ before – takes place through the efforts of their SGM churches.
It is my belief that the vast majority of growth in SGM churches comes through taking members (who have been believers for a long time) from other churches.
If that isn’t about promoting SGM, and about SGM’s superiority to other churches, then what’s it about?
I can tell you this: it ain’t about the gospel of Jesus!
December 8th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Mack,
You and I were posting at the same time.
December 8th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
#67 – a Kindred Spirit;
I had to chuckle at your comment;
“Some SGMers occasionally make the remark that “their” church rarely even mentions CJ’s name. I have to chuckle. They really have no idea”.
This is EXACTLY what my SGM-going family do. During the 2 years I attended SGM in Bristol, England – C J Mahaney’s name was probably mentioned more often than that of Jesus Christ (bearing in mind they called Him “Saviour” – in true SGM-style). The pastor would frequently even re-preach Mahaney and Josh Harris sermons.
My family in trying to persuade me that the church has changed and isn’t so “SGM-ish” as when I attended ALWAYS use that comment as sort of “proof”;
“You hardly ever hear C J Mahaney’s name mentioned anymore!”.
That always puzzled me. Why is that a good thing? Do they know deep down that there is a degree of idol-worship going on for the man who preached “The Idol Factory”? Or are they trying to convince themselves they are a healthy stand-alone church that doesn’t look to Mahaney for all things doctrinal?
I dunno.
Sorry – just a thought!
(well not really new, just a quiet observer!) 
December 8th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Merry Christmas to all!
RE: Disney
I can’t get too upset about the Disney/vacation issue. Ministries / churches often get great deals on conference packages. I’ve benefitted from such myself–to the point of enjoying a Rolls-Royce vacation at a broken-down Chevette price, and that’s the truth.
RE: Arlington / Government
If it’s true that the new church plant will have elected elders: that’s great, to a point — but the root issue is that SGM is governed by ONE MAN who is not “removable”. Unless that changes, actions at the local level are akin to putting bandaids on cancer.
PDI’s government was of concern to us when we first joined our SGM church — but at that time, there were TWO guys in charge, which provided some checks and balances — and the way things were worded made us think that there was an actual “board”. They’d say things like “…led by a team of men related to CJ Mahaney and Larry Tomzak…”, which to me, sounded like the TEAM of leaders were in charge, with Larry and CJ kinda moderating/leading/advising. And I’d never heard of either one of those guys, so I just figured they were regular, run-of-the-mill good guys.
I remember when the CJ/Larry split first happened. I wasn’t real interested in the higher-up SGM stuff at the time, so I didn’t pay alot of attention. First, it was announced that the leaders had determined that CJ was more gifted in the administration of the organization, so Larry would still be involved, but in ways that focused more on his gifting. I was new to PDI at the time, but had come from a church where it was often taught that people ought to work within their gifts, so I thought this was a reasonable statement. I had no reason, at that point, to mistrust the actions or the reasons behind them. Later, I don’t remember how long after this — and can’t remember the exact wording — we received a letter from PDI Headquarters via US Mail, informing us that Larry T was going through a season of discipline after hiding the truth of some family issues. Again, I don’t remember the wording, but my impression was that after the discipline was over, Larry might be restored to ministry. I remember seeing Larry at the next Celebration, as an attender — don’t think he spoke at that one. The next thing we knew, Larry left PDI, and my impression at the time was that the “discipline” thing hadn’t worked out.
It was then that I began to wonder if maybe there had been a “king of the hill” competition, won by the one who could kick the hardest.
There are many things that happen behind the scenes that are none of my business — but there are ways to honestly give information regarding sensitive issues.
After reading some of the history here, such as the situation of sexual misconduct by a leader’s son, I wonder if the SGM policy of removing people from pastoral leadership when a child misbehaves might have stemmed from this prior situation of NOT removing/restricting someone when severe misconduct occurred.
I don’t want to know details that are none of my business. But I DO want to know the reasoning behind actions that affect policy-making.
So, for example, if SGM were to come out with a statement that said, “Once upon a time, such-and-such a hurtful situation occurred, and we failed to take appropriate action, causing further damage. Therefore, in the future, if such-and-such occurs, we will take the following action in order to protect our members…”
That kind of thing might clear a lot of air.
I do know that horrible things happened at many churches (SGM and others) which caused the institution of background checks, rules about who can/cannot change diapers in nursery situations — and when you know the reasons behind such rules, it’s easier to swallow them.
(Sort of like the disclaimer on a Superman costume that says “Do not attempt to jump from high altitudes” – and you know that some idiot did exactly that!)
RE: Evangelism / Missions
A comment about evangelism — sadly, most of the churches I’ve been involved with over the past 30 years (Baptist, Methodist, Independent, Charismatic, Presbyterian) are in the same boat — most new members are already Christians. In my observation, those who are brought to Christ as a result of those ministries have often been friends / relatives of those who attend regularly. There are a handful of examples that I could list where people stumbled into church for a wedding, funeral, or even once when a baby had been given a Christening dress and they wanted a baptism in order to use the dress — and they came to Christ.
These days, new churches of every flavor seem to be popping up all over — many who desire to target the unchurched — and that’s great. But most of these denominations also have a strong emphasis on supporting missions beyond their own culture. What bothers me about SGM’s emphasis on church clones in highly-churched, affluent areas is that there is no commensurate attention focused on taking the Good News of Christ (which transfers to every culture) into dark corners of the earth (where SGM music would not be music to non-affluent-Western-pop-music conditioned ears.)
SGM’s apparent belief is that mission work is just as valid on the streets of Arlington as it is in the jungles of Africa or the poorest corners of Singapore. And that’s true — but there is little apparent growth of their missions plan — no stated vision for this “family of churches” who are probably among the wealthiest per-capita denominations to SEND ministry and EQUIP those who have few resources to places where there’s no way people will hear of Jesus unless we go, send, or equip.
They could change that with a lot of prayer support and a few healthy checks!
But again — I see no desire in SGM to change, grow, or increase in the area of missions.
And again, I appeal to the “team of men” who lead SGM — come on guys — you’ve had a great thing going – get the ship righted and back on course.
Lord, guide us gently, safely o’er to Thy kindom shore.
December 8th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Hi Dan,
It’s good to “hear” from you!
Don’t make a habit of staying “silent” for so long.
December 8th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Steve said,
“One interesting item that I recall from listening to some of the older TAG tapes about Tomczak/Mahaney is that back in the early years of TAG, the two men discovered that they were hiding various Christian books from each other. This is going back before 1976. Not sharing the books was a way for at least one of them to look better than the other person. As they say, knowledge is power.”
Okay, is it just me, or does anyone else find this EXTREMELY telling. Books? They were hiding various Christian authors’ *BOOKS* from one another?
There’s been LOTS of discussion on the blog implying that CJ relies more heavily (much more) on what other men have written rather than his own personal study. I think that particular piece of information on those tapes supports what I’ve read.
December 8th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Nickname, You said:
“RE: Disney
I can’t get too upset about the Disney/vacation issue. Ministries / churches often get great deals on conference packages. I’ve benefitted from such myself–to the point of enjoying a Rolls-Royce vacation at a broken-down Chevette price, and that’s the truth.”
I’m certain they didn’t get “great deals” on the airline tickets. Or the fancy dinners. Or the rental cars. Perhaps the hotel rooms at the resort.
Even with a “great deal,” having a conference at a very expensive family resort is extravagant. Maybe a better option would have been a local conference center where as few as possible had to fly.
Times are extremely tough. Even a “great deal” is still too much to blow on a conference.
Heck, why not have Webexes? Conference calls are an excellent way to do business in the technology age.
December 9th, 2009 at 12:29 am
I didn’t know this kind of site existed! I’m kinda happy to find it. Former Providence Church of Pittsburgh member here.
December 9th, 2009 at 1:11 am
Sidney — when I wrote my thoughts, I was assuming the “charitable judgment” that people going to such conferences are responsible for many of their own expenses, such as entertainment tickets, costs for family members, extravagant meals, extra hotel rooms, etc. If “ministry” money was used for such, that is indeed a travesty.
Most businesses and ministries with which I am familiar would not pay extra expenses for family members, entertainment — and I hope that SGM would not be doing so, as I believe they are members of the organization that promotes financial accountability among evangelical ministries.
December 9th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Thanks a Kindred Spirit!!
It’s always nice to feel wanted, I didn’t ever want to be accused of being boring though.
Okay – I was thinking a LOT about SGM this morning and why so many thousands of people are so upset about this. A couple of thoughts came to mind (and I’m VERY willing to stand corrected);
1. The fact that so many of us devote so much time to discussing SGM suggests to me that we actually CARE about those people rather than just enjoying a “Hate” club.
For instance, my family (Mum, Dad, younger sister and family, and four other younger sisters) are STILL in SGM. It matters a GREAT DEAL to me how they get treated. What if one of my sisters was to fall into sin (get pregnant etc etc) – and most likely would receive the same kind of authoritarian heavy-handed “discipline” that I (and so many others) experienced? That upsets me just at the thought.
Also there are thousands of GOOD NICE people in SGM! Let that be said surely! My experience of SGM showed me that actually those in SG leadership are extremely fortunate. They have a devoted, loyal (perhaps too loyal) group of people under their care! And that’s what makes the abuse so much worse. They are mistreating the Bride of Christ – and if I read Revelation rightly, Jesus Christ gets quite upset at that – “Be not many teachers brethren for THEIRS (Yes C J – that means you) is the greater judgement”.
2. Why am I STILL so upset about the treatment I received at the hands of the SGM pastors four or five years later?
I think it’s because so many of us went to them in genuine need, hoping and expecting to be cared for. And instead we were “kicked when we were down”.
I NEVER went to see the pastors to talk about the fact that I was gay or bisexual. NEVER! I went because I was extremely depressed, virtually suicidal and self-harming. But they ignored that (presumably C J Mahaney would call it psycho-babble and blame it on my pride) – and told me that it was because I was gay.
So to add to my already depressed state, I also had to deal with being thrown out of a church without so much as a discussion or appeal, and also deal with my family standing with the church against me.
I don’t mind admitting that I STILL don’t trust church leaders – and probably never will (unless I find a good one here in the UK!). Once bitten – twice shy.
As Nickname said so well in #81;
“And again, I appeal to the “team of men” who lead SGM — come on guys — you’ve had a great thing going – get the ship righted and back on course”.
December 9th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Nickname, I didn’t say the family members were paid for. Please don’t misunderstand me there.
Kris, Wasn’t there some information shared here on the blog about the financial report and what CLC spent on “travel expenses?”
I wish someone would share current information. Nickname, if you still go to SGM church, won’t you check with the financial statements and let us know what SGM spends on “travel expenses?” That might be helpful.
All I’m sayin’ is that the “A Team” goes to Disney every year. And they do all sorts of fancy things while they’re there. Unless and until someone shares otherwise, there’s no reason to believe the company didn’t pay for it.
I know many people who travel for work. If there are functions on a business trip that everyone goes on together (team building sorts of things), then the company pays. Meals, events, extracurriculars etc. It is customary for the events with work people while on work trips are paid for by the company.
December 9th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Sidney — I am no longer an SGM member — it’s been almost a decade since we left — so I have no access to such information.
I hope that they adhere to standards of financial accountability.
December 9th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
welcome Pirates
December 9th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Welcome, Piratesmvp –
the lone churchplanting family from Fairfax who moved to Pittsburgh was very special to us. Last I heard they were still in PA – are you still in PA or have you moved on?
December 9th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Defended-
Were you a part of the planting team?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Good song on grace…
Tim McGraw “Let it Go”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99ZGO6r9pCw&feature=player_embedded
Let it Go ~ Tim McGraw
I’ve been caught sideways out here on the crossroads
Trying to buy back the pieces I lost of my soul
It’s hard when the devil won’t get off your back
It’s like carrying around the past in a hundred pound sack
[Chorus]
Today I’m gonna keep on walking
I’m gonna hold my head up high
I’m gonna leave it all behind
Today I’m gonna stand out in the rain
Let it wash it all away Yeah wash it all away
I’m gonna let it go Oh yeah
I’m gonna let it go Oh yeah
Skeletons and Ghosts are hiding in the shadows
Threatening me with all the things that they know
Choices and mistakes, they all know my name
But I’m through holding in and holding onto all that pain
Today I’m gonna keep on walking
I’m gonna hold my head up high
Got no more tears to cry
Today I’m gonna stand out in the rain
Let it wash it all away Yeah wash it all away
I’m gonna let it go Oh yeah
I’m gonna let it go Oh yeah
And I know I know I know I know I’ve been forgiven
I know I know I know I’m gonna start living
Today I’m gonna keep on walking
I’m gonna hold my head up high
I’m gonna leave it all behind
Today I’m gonna stand out in the rain
Let it wash it all away Yeah wash it all away
I’m gonna let it go Oh yeah
I’m gonna let it go Oh yeah
I’m gonna let it go Oh yeah
Oh yeah
December 10th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Tonic, Thanks for the encouraging song!
December 10th, 2009 at 11:51 am
re Luther – not sure why its necessary for him to declare himself either an sgm apologist or a hater. Seems pretty clear that he’s thinking things over.
Often I’ve seen comments posted from people who are questioning things but are not yet solidly in the hater camp. Because they can’t be readily identified as haters, the regulars here draw their knives and commence stabbing.
Recently, I had my brother who isn’t a Christian read this blog. His comment was “No question. Christianity is bare-knuckles bloodsport.” I think he’s onto something.
December 10th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
The Missus -
It’s not “necessary” for Luther to “declare” anything. And there’s plenty of room for people to be in the middle, somewhere between apologist or “hater” (and I’d beg to differ with you over your unfortunate choice of words, as I don’t think there are too many of us who are actually SGM “haters”…sigh).
What I was saying to Luther – and what I’ll say to you – is that I just don’t understand why people seek to participate in a conversation if all they’re going to do is condemn (in one way or another) the others who have already been conversing among themselves. The topic at hand here is, for better or worse, SGM’s issues. The topic is NOT how Luther will handle SGM’s issues, and whether Luther’s approach is superior to everyone else’s. If Luther has something to share about SGM, fine. I’d be interested in hearing about Luther’s own journey, and why he’s suddenly changing his song and actually daring to articulate the possibility that he and his family might leave SGM. That’d be interesting to me, because if Luther were to explain how he got from being Semi-Crazed SGM Defender #1 to “spending untold HOURS” talking with his pastor about SGM’s issues, then he might actually have something of substance to add to our discussion.
Instead, he pops by here to trumpet his lack of discussing SGM…even as he alludes to SGM’s issues.
It just makes no sense.
As to your own remarks, I gotta tell you, lady – you have a snarky tone. If I went through all the comments, I’d bet I could find at least a handful of jabs that YOU have made. I’ve seen more “stabbing” from you than a lot of others here.
I’m thinking you should check your own knuckles. You’d see just as much blood there as anywhere.
December 10th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Actually, it probably isn’t the “snarkiness” that you object to as much as it is that my comments tend to hit home.
No one who knows me would accuse me of being an apologist or a defender of sgm. Personally, I think its all horrible – the stories of abuse by sgm and the response to it on this site and others.
Thank God these aren’t our only two choices – defend sgm no matter what awful thing takes place or align yourself with sgm haters.
December 10th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
The Missus -
Your comments most definitely do NOT “hit home” with me.
Rather, I think you demonstrate that you haven’t actually paid much attention to what I (or others) have said. I’ve frequently discussed SGM in a nuanced fashion, and I do believe that there is both bad AND good within the organization. As I’ve said over and over again, though, this blog is not primarily for discussing what’s good about SGM. You can find hundreds of blogs that will sing SGM’s praises. This site isn’t one of those.
This site is to discuss SGM’s issues and problems. We’re not providing a forum for people to attempt to change the subject by talking about the relative badness of those who comment here. I’m really sick of that. If Luther and his ilk don’t like what people say, or how they say it, and if he is so convinced that he is making a more spiritual choice by remaining silent about experiencing abuse and dysfunction within SGM, he has the right to that opinion. But he does NOT have the right to come around here and trumpet that opinion and sing the praises of his silence.
I’ve said this many times, but I just don’t understand why people think they can lumber into a blog conversation, spout off their contrary opinions, and expect to be petted and welcomed and applauded for what they say. I would NEVER go around to pro-SGM blogs and slam the participants there. If I ever were so whacked as to do such at thing, I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if I received less than a warm welcome.
December 10th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
So are you saying that dissenting views aren’t welcome here? Isn’t that more or less one of your complaints about sgm? That no one is allowed to express a view that differs from the accepted norm?
December 10th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Oh, you can dissent all the way till the cows come home.
You just need to expect that people will respond with dissent toward what you say.
And don’t then turn around and attempt to post silly cracks about knife wounds.
You get as good as you give, ‘zall I’m sayin’…
December 10th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
That’s the part I don’t get. Why do SGM defenders (even those who supposedly “see the dark side” and “just want to present a balanced view”) think that their dissent is going to be lauded and applauded here? Especially if it’s cloaked in sort of cantankerous tones, like the dissenter is “bringing an observation”?
I wrote this nearly two years ago, but it’s still true today:
December 10th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Defender,
Yes, it is true. Not sure the common folk get to hear those recordings.
Wayfaring Man
Defended
December 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Wayfaring – #47 – What is this about? Is the recording available?
Were you there?
sigh…..haven’t most who need to reconcile been de-gifted, thus not attending leadership weekends?
I heard Shank tell KJacob to go and apologize to others for something and it never happened, while he (KJ) was on the payroll, so, uh, no, it’s not likely ever, lest God truly intervenes. Not something as big as true reconciliation.
Yet, if there are actual events of this happening among others I would LOVE to hear of it.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
The Missus said,
“Recently, I had my brother who isn’t a Christian read this blog. His comment was “No question. Christianity is bare-knuckles bloodsport.” I think he’s onto something.”
Just curious…what was your purpose for having your unbelieving brother read the blog?
December 10th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
There are two kinds of people in the world: those that think there are only two choices (like, say, apologist or hater) and those who understand that things are far more complicated and nuanced and ambiguous than that.
December 10th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
“…and those who understand that things are far more complicated and nuanced and ambiguous than that.”
And that care enough to do something about it, no matter what the cost.
A voice for those who either don’t know how to say it or are just too beaten down to have enough strength to try.
December 11th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Musicman – #92 – no, we weren’t part of that church plant but we had some special friends from Ffx who joined that team and it was quite a struggle for them. They are still in the Pitt area, I believe. (thank God for facebook!) Did you go on that church plant?
(sorry,can’t remember if that’s part of your story.)
December 11th, 2009 at 12:31 am
Missus #95
Often I’ve seen comments posted from people who are questioning things but are not yet solidly in the hater camp. Because they can’t be readily identified as haters, the regulars here draw their knives and commence stabbing.
wow, that is some of the most hate-filled posting I’ve seen on this blog, in 1000′s of posts!
December 11th, 2009 at 1:01 am
Wow…i’m sorry but i have been reading this site for a while now and this is probably the most pretentious post i have seen on here yet. Where is the humility?
“And, like I said, some of these leaders/teachers don’t even fully grasp what they’re doing. They’ve been so indoctrinated and well-trained that they actually believe this is how ministry should be done – that THEY are “the authorities,” and it is their members’ duty to simply put up and shut up.”
Wow that’s a bold statement to such a large group of people. I cannot agree with this fully. I feel like no matter what others have done, in a way I cannot fully condemn their leaders. Many of them are striving to do good. I know no better.
I used to go to SGM. I lived and breathed it for many years. Yes I was hurt by many people. I know so many stories and have witnessed so many things I could write a book. I have more dirt on SGM then most people on here. But you know, I moved on. There are so many other things in this world that are worth fighting for. So many global issues. I cannot fathom how some people post on here regularly. How many of you are in your communities helping those around you? I want to help my community. I want to serve those around me. If you ask me, I will tell you my personal opinion of SGM. But I cannot lend my approval of Christians constantly dissecting other ministries for any reason. For what good? This site undermines the human spirit and latches on to the negative. I can discern no profit from sitting on this site and ranting about the past. Yes, the history of humanity is stained with guilt. It always will be. Nothing new under the sun. I feel like this site is propagating a focus on the negative aspects of humanity that always be. There are many evils in this world, but is this one worth fighting for? I refuse to label myself as a “SGM Survivor.” I am no victim to circumstance and I am no survivor. Let go. As Emerson said, “Your goodness must have some edge to it,-else it is one. I ask, what is the “edge” to this site which gives it goodness? I used to want to talk about SGM, but I have realized that no profitable good has come of it. I used to be bitter but I’m done with that road. I’m pressing on.
“Their virtues are penances. I do not wish to expiate, but to live. My life is for itself and NOT a spectacle.”
December 11th, 2009 at 2:24 am
The Missus: Where to start… The comments that have “hit home” to me are the online hugs sent to hurting people, the encouragement and prayers for those who are disillusioned, the validation, kindness, Christian charity for those who have been shunned… Your comments don’t even hit the neighborhood.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:17 am
Defended-
I was at at PC of Pitt- pretty sure I knew the couple you speak of (JM & SM ?)-really good folks…my wife and I recall them fondly.
I always wondered if they stuck it out….thanks for the info.
Acme-well spoken…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:20 am
AKS,
To answer your question – my brother is a research fellow with a university think tank (mostly non-partisan but I’d say it leans slightly left) and he’s looking into political hate blogs to see if there’s enough there to write a book or if he should just make it an article for the think tank’s journal.
He had made a comment about evangelicals being too nice and I just wanted to show him that Christians can hate with the best of ‘em. He was quite taken aback by the viciousness of the post (inspired by me) about how christians who go to sgm churches aren’t “normal” and the subsequent comments mocking and belittling them and doing it with such precision. Oh yes, I know there’s no hate in your collective hearts, but when you’re on the receiving end of those comments, it feels a lot like hate.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Alyosha,
Thanks for your comment, and welcome.
You ask about if any good has come out of this site. Aside from the many, many people who have written to tell me what a relief it was to find out that they were not alone in their SGM experiences, and that they WEREN’T crazy, I can point to one other really major positive thing that this blog and others like it have done:
The blogs about SGM have finally caused SGM’s leadership to understand that what they do to people in private might not always remain private.
And consequently, even though fear of exposure may not always be the best motivator to get people to truly change from the inside out, at least there’s another layer of protection for the average SGM member. I mean, I think a lot of the supposed “new openness” that has been mandated (where pastors have been instructed to try to be more open to correction from members and to not always direct the conversation back around to the members’ sin) is probably more about the surface appearances than anything else. I think the root tendency to think in the same way is still there. Until that root problem is addressed, repeatedly and openly, there’s not going to be substantially real change.
HOWEVER, the very fact that a lot of these stories have been made public is enough to motivate pastors to watch themselves. I doubt that a child molester would today be treated the same way as the young man in Noel’s story, for instance.
This blog is a deterrant to further SGM abuse.
I see a lot of logical leaps in your own criticism of this site, actually. First of all, please note that in the portion of my remarks which you quoted, I was referring to “some” SGM pastors. SOME, not ALL or even MOST.
Secondly, you do realize that it’s possible to participate in this site and also find plenty of time for other types of service. You yourself, of course, are an example of someone who reads blogs and even (at least occasionally) chooses to participate in them, and yet you must not believe that that gets in the way of the positive stuff you try to do. It is the same for most of us here. I happen to type and write very quickly. I may spend a few 15-minute chunks here and there responding to commenters. Occasionally I have invested a little more time in writing the actual posts, especially the transcripts. But this blog really is NOT a huge part of my life. And it isn’t preventing me from participating in lots of activities and serving my community in various capacities. I’m pretty sure the same could be said for the vast majority of our readers and commenters…yourself included, of course.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:57 am
“The Missus” -
Instead of all this crying-in-your-beer talk of “hate,” it’d be interesting for you to actually deal with all the ways in which SGM tries to set itself apart from other Bible-based Evangelical/Reformed churches. You seem particularly bothered by being told that SGM is different from “normal” Christianity.
If you want to participate in the discussion here, why not address some of the more significant parts of the list of SGM’s “abnormalities.” Why not deal, for instance, with the way that SGM plants churches and thinks that that is “missions”? Why not address what SGM teaches its pastors about psychiatric medications, and how they can be part of a member’s “management” of those medications?
That’d be so much more interesting than all this talk of “hate.” As you yourself pointed out, there’s no “hate” in our collective hearts toward you. Or even toward SGM.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:14 am
This will be my last post on this site…
I’m sorry but I don’t believe anyone can truly profit from this site. This site represents to me why Christians have such a bad rep in society. This site represents to me why I no longer affiliate myself with Christians. Between this site and SGM I would say that they are two sides of the same coin. I just don’t see the humility in Christians I have been looking for. Perhaps it does not exist. This site makes me truly sad. I hope no curious “unbelievers” stumble upon this site. It is swimming in animosity.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:31 am
On Missions – I’ve never heard of in-country church planting referred to as “missions”. I’ve heard it referred to as being part of “THE” mission in same way that our evangelistic college ministry is referred to as helping to fulfill the Great Commission in our little corner.
On Psychiatric Medication – don’t know what they teach about this at the pastor’s college. In a talk on this topic a couple of years ago, the pastor said that if you need to take ‘em, take ‘em. I have a close friend within our church that is very mentally ill and takes quite a few meds. She certainly has my full support. If people can be sick in their bodies, why can’t they be sick in their minds?
I wish your love felt more like love and less like hate.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Aloha, Alyosha!
December 11th, 2009 at 8:40 am
“The Missus” -
I wish I felt anything resembling “love” coming from YOUR posts…
I find it so interesting that SGMers are so closely fused with their particular
denominationfamily of churches that discussion of SGM’s abnormalities becomes so personal for them.Let’s just say, hypothetically, that someone (Claireon, for example) “hates” SGM. (I mention Claireon because she has made her position abundantly clear – she believes that SGM is a destructive approach to the Christian faith and has boldly said many times that SGM is leading people astray.) That does not mean that she “hates” the people, personally! Rather, she “hates” the way that the organization does things. She “hates” a lot of the stuff that they teach.
Why is a disapproval of SGM’s “abnormalities” perceived as “hatred” of you personally?
I don’t get it.
December 11th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Anything else you want to ask me about the “normal” thing?
December 11th, 2009 at 9:06 am
“The Missus” -
I don’t think you’ve addressed what I already asked. SGM has made it clear that they do not do regular “missions” – instead, they consider their church-planting efforts to be “missions.” They do not support any evangelistic outreach that is not directly tied to SGM.
And as to psychiatric meds, SGM’s pastors are still taught to have a clear bias against medications. At this year’s pastors’ conference, Andy Farmer made several statements about how undesirable such meds are, and how pastors can “be part of the management” of a member’s medications.
Are you going to address why you keep talking about “hate” in such a personal way, when all we’re doing here is talking about SGM? Why do you have such a close personal connection to SGM, to where you are perceiving criticisms of the organization as criticisms of you yourself personally?
December 11th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Oh come on, Kris – do you really love me???? Of course you don’t. Why would you? I don’t mind your lack of love for me or your hatred toward sgm. I’m merely pointing out its existence to interested observers.
Christians are very good at hating each other. Its one of the many reasons that we need the Lord.
As far as the issues I addressed re missions and meds, my comments stand. All I can comment on is my own experience. I didn’t hear the messages from the pastors conference. I guess I’m not as interested in that stuff as you are.
December 11th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Yup, that’s it in a nutshell!
This site definitely serves a great purpose of helping to inform people about the destructive influence of SGM, and to warn unassuming Christians of the ugly and offensive elements that lurk beneath SGM’s carefully groomed and guarded exterior.
Anyone with half a brain and the ability to put two and two together can see that God is using Kris’s and Guy’s gifts, talents, and passions to run and maintain this site. Kris is brilliant and is obviously more than capable of managing the task of responding to emails and posts, as well as formulating her incredibly intelligent analysis of the issues that confront us in regards to SGM. This site is a ministry and a blessing and God is in this.
That alone should give people pause. Those that are in SGM need to realize that this site wasn’t launched by some hackers on the internet who are unemployed and sitting in their Mom’s basements in their pajamas (as one SGM pastor characterized bloggers). God has risen up a collective voice of people within the framework of this site. Kris has become the spokesperson, and anyone that reads what she writes knows that she’s worth her weight in gold. If anyone walks away from SGMsurvivors thinking that nothing is being said here, or that this site is useless – then I pity the foo’.
Thanks again Kris and Guy for all you do. May the Lord continue to bless and encourage the work of SGMsurvivors and all those that read and participate here. May the Spirit of Truth shine forth and shed light on the very real and serious problems that people have experienced while in SGM, that are generated by SGM. And may this site be one among many that call people out of the darkness and into the light. The enemy is cunning and deceitful, who clothes himself in light, and calls the darkness light. SGM is full of artificial light. This site is simply a tool to help people open the blinds and let the true Light shine. My hope is that people open the shutters, the doors, and the windows and follow the Light straight OUT of SGM.
December 11th, 2009 at 10:20 am
“The Missus” -
Really? “Hate”? Such a dramatic word…so full of passion…
It seems to me that all an “interested observer” would be seeing here is junior high-ish hyperbole.
And a strange tendency to take discussion about a
denomination’sfamily of churches’ issues personally.Why does my belief that SGM deliberately makes itself “abnormal” (compared to other Bible-based Evangelical/Reformed churches) translate into “hatred” for you as an individual? Why?
I think maybe you’ve inadvertently helped us stumble onto #51 for the “Normal/Abnormal” list:
December 11th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Kris,
Is there a way that we as posters on this site can use the same visual effects as you, lining words out, hi-lighting etc?
Chuck
December 11th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Chuck,
Yeah. Just search for html codes for WordPress. (If I were to try and describe which keys to type with which code, it would simply publish as the effect I’m trying to describe, so that won’t work.)
December 11th, 2009 at 11:07 am
There are hate sites for Windows 7 and brussel sprouts.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Misicman,
I’m jumping in here before Defended replies.
We (Defended & Me) were talking last night about how we miss (JM & SM).
Thanks for that confirmation. They were good friends of ours back in VA. SM is my hero, for her ministry before she & JM were married. What a brave woman!
Hey Believer! Good to “see” you again. I’ve missed you & Mr. Believer.
(Back to our regularly scheduled discussion on “hate speech”.)
-Defender
December 11th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Claireon — #121 —
— well said. Thank you.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Since beginning to read here, the positive and forgiving tone of most posts have encouraged and blessed me — even as folks have described incredible treatment at the hands of trusted Christians, they’ve been truthful, yet often far more gracious than I would expect. But when the truth exposes pure-tee meanness, the truth hurts. Truth can always stand up to examination, and often when truth hurts, people strike out like caged animals, because the only weapons they have left are personal attacks.
Talking about true happenings isn’t hatred. If this had been a “hate” site, I’d have read once and never returned.
Thanks, Kris, for providing this forum.
December 11th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
“The Missus” -
How ’bout we just table all this talk of “hate,” OK?
You’re hearing “hate” – personal hate, directed at you – in a discussion about your church organization. You are bothered on some sort of personal level because people here have outlined more than 50 ways that SGM as an organization differs from “normal” Bible-based Evangelical/Reformed church organizations.
You have the right to feel whatever you’re feeling, of course, but the truth is that your perceptions are NOT accurate and what people are saying here is NOT meant in the personal way that you’re taking it.
You can lob accusations of “hate,” and I can volley back that it’s not “hate,” and we can go round and round. Try as you might, you’re never going to convince me that I hate you. Because I don’t.
So there’s no point to further discussion of “hate.”
What’s funny, though, is that whether you realize it or not, your own comments are especially unpleasant and nasty in tone. Trust me on this one. I’ve been dealing with dissenters, sometimes really angry dissenters, since practically the first day this site was up, and the way you say things would rank right up there with the worst of ‘em. You may not intend to, but you sound snide, like one of those subtle Mean Girls from middle school. It really doesn’t reflect well on SGM as an organization, if this is what their version of “grace” looks like. Y’know?
For all your complaints about my (supposed) lack of love for you, you’ve extended no love toward me…at least none that I can detect.
It doesn’t actually seem to me that “love” is that great a priority for you – at least, not on the giving end.
December 11th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Does anyone else see a pattern in the recent comments?
I’ve noticed from time to time – particularly on days following SGM’s most popular evenings to hold their small-group meetings – an increase in people harping on the same ideas, or putting forth similar kinds of comments.
Like, there was the time when everyone was coming around and copying and pasting Bible verses about gossip.
Then there have been weeks when the theme seemed to be people’s anonymity, and the lack of credibility inherent in such anonymity.
There was also the “My Church Is Different!” mantra.
And now it’s like the theme is, “You’re not showing enough love! What will non-Christians think of your lack of love?”
Interestingly enough, I’ve interacted with more than a few non-Christians who have stumbled onto this site and chosen to either comment or write me an email. Just about all of them have expressed, in one way or another, that they’re glad there are Christians who will speak out against the abuses that can happen in church.
Unbelievers are particularly turned off by organizations that do stuff like cover up child abuse. They really want no part of that kind of “love.”
December 11th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I’m more than happy to table the “hate” discussion.
My original point was that it is possible to have some serious issues with sgm and not be quite ready to throw in the towel. I know, because that’s where I’m at.
As an experiment, why not try NOT attacking people. If you would give them half a chance you might be surprised at how easily the conversation could be worked around to the place where you’re most comfortable – sgm’s shortcomings.
However, you’re absolutely right that its your blog and you have every right to do as you please.
December 11th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“The Missus” -
I think it’s all a matter of perception. I really do.
You see, I think people here (myself included) feel “attacked” when SGM defenders such as yourself amble on over here and without so much as a “Hi-how-are-ya” start in on why we’re wrong and how we’re not showing enough love and how we’re gossips and how even though SGM isn’t perfect, YOUR experience has been different.
And so on. And so forth.
There’s frequently a level of what I think is oddly inappropriate emotion, too, in some of these people’s “corrective” rants.
We’re all only human. This blog is kinda like a living room, where people are in the midst of an ongoing conversation. In the same way that you wouldn’t barge in to someone’s living room and immediately start telling them why you hate what they’re talking about, why they’re wrong, why they’re liars, or why you don’t approve of the color of their window coverings, you also shouldn’t expect to join a blog conversation that way. And if you DO decide to fling accusations without first taking the time to ease into the already-assembled group, you shouldn’t be surprised if you’ll end up feeling “attacked” as people in the group try to defend themselves.
I think this lack of “blog-iquette” is yet another one of those things about some SGMers that I simply do not understand. What do people expect, anyway? I don’t troll the internet, sending out bunches of spam to compel SGMers to come over here and read what I and other people say. If I were in some way advertising the site – like, say, putting fliers under people’s windshield wipers while they were inside their SGM churches attending Sunday
servicesmeetings – or aggressively pursuing readers, maybe that’d be different. But I’m not. I don’t think anyone here is. People come here and read of their own free will. If they don’t like what they read, they’re really and truly free to move on to somewhere else. What I always say is, if what is being said here is so totally wrong, that will all come out in the wash. If it’s all lies and gossip, SGMers have nothing to fear, nothing to defend.God’s truth will prevail.
In the meantime, I wish SGMers would take some time to think, and stop being so cotton-pickin’ rude in the way they interact sometimes.
(Not you, necessarily, “The Missus”…just in general.)
December 11th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
The Missus, if you had submitted your last comment without paragraph 3 (or even just eliminated the word “attacking”), it would be so much better.
As it is, you just proved Kris’ point. You have perceived it as an attack.
I’m so glad you understand that it is Kris’ site. My mama taught me to be respectful to the wishes of my host/hostess, to go ahead and nibble on the lima beans, but not to shout, “Hey, I HATE LIMA BEANS. WHY WOULD YOU ATTACK ME BY SERVING THEM? YOU ALL ARE SUCH HATERS!”
December 11th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
I see a pattern, Kris, and I find it interesting that Chuck chimed when he did, too.
Some people can sound so open can’t they? But, in typical SGM fashion, they’re only open to the notion that YOU’RE the one with the problem and that YOU’RE the one that needs to change. They assume they’re fine, but if they took the time to look in the mirror they’d notice a huge booger hanging out of their nose. Or worse, the face of hypocrisy staring back at them.
My feeling is that SGM will work to hide and defuse what is becoming obvious, and attempt to cover up their flaws – not by changing anything – but by some “new” emphasis. But it will be nothing more than a distraction, a subterfuge that people will fall for.
What about SGM’s posture toward their critics? Seems some people like to dish it out and comment on the lives of other public personalities (Bill Belichick, Tiger Woods) without allowing others to comment or ask questions about their own. SGM will continue to insulate themselves, ignore criticism, and act as though they are being “persecuted” for their “righteousness”. Or they will attack their critics. That’s all they are able to do because they can not, they will not, and they do not want to change anything.
If you’re in SGM and you have a problem with SGM, they see it as your problem. They won’t want you there, and it won’t be any good if you stay and try to change things. They’re not going to listen to you. Believe me – if you are unhappy with the way things are, the best thing to do is leave.
December 11th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Even if someone appeared in my living room and rudely disagreed with me, I would still be polite to them and listen hard to try to understand what they’re saying and why they’re saying it.
December 11th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
An interesting and brief comment on the psy med issue. Some friends of ours, who are longtime SGM’ers, who are members of a long time established SGM Church on the east coast, recently had an issue. One of the couple had some psy issues, went to an MD, was diagnosed with bipolar, or something. Got put on meds. Anyway, they mention it to there care group leader, who then goes off on the “never go to a psychologist, never do psy meds”, etc.., path that has been refered to in the above posts. So the couple, who disagree, go to the pastor, who then completely disagrees with the care group leader. The pastor says that is rediculous and sides with the couple and says it is fine to go that route and also says tha SGM’s policy is that it is ok to go that route as well.
For whatver that is worth…
December 11th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Can you give us a demonstration of what that might look like?
December 11th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
One other thing…I compare SGM’s posture to that of the people promoting global warming in the midst of the Climategate debacle. People realize the statistics have been manipulated, the “science” is unreliable, and that Al Gore is sitting luxuriously in his private car at the front the Gravy Train.
All of them are saying there’s no scandal. All of them are saying everyone’s got it wrong, that the emails are being taken “out of context”, and that all the proof regarding global warming is solid and backed up by a consensus of scientists from around the globe.
The global warming proponents don’t need to change anything about what they’ve written or said – oh no! Even in the face of criticism and proof to the contrary, they remain unbowed. The problem is you! You need to change. You need to work and be involved in passing legislation that will cost us all more money in taxes. And you need to eat less dairy and meat, recycle everything, and live in fear.
SGM also remains unbowed despite all the damaging evidence. Yet for SGM it’s business as usual while they keep telling everyone to keep on track with the SGM program and make the necessary changes in their lives in order to do so.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
Haha 5sneakers! Talk about a mixed message! Is down up or is up down?
When I was in SGM, I was told by a Care Group leader who became a Pastor that, “all the medical community can offer you is drugs” which completely discouraged me from taking any medication my doctor prescribed for me to treat my depression from which I suffered after I struggled to recover from some major surgery.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
5Sneakers,
I guess I’m of the mind to find it absolutely bizarre that a church member would even be discussing their prescription drugs with a care group leader or pastor.
I mean, what would have happened if the pastor had toed the usual SGM line and weighed in negatively on the matter? Would the pastor’s opinion have colored how the member viewed these drugs? Would that have had any bearing on the member’s decision to fill the prescription?
Speaking as someone who has spent a lifetime in “normal” churches, such involvement by church leaders in the nitty-gritty personal details of a member’s life is just…breathtakingly bizarre to me.
Anybody else with me on this?
December 11th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
On the subject of drugs vs. no drugs.
The pharmaceutical industry got many, (if not most) of the drugs we use from plants.
Aspirin comes from the bark of a tree. You know where the Christian’s drug of choice (caffeine) comes from, don’t we?
(Jump in here Believer, I know you have a large wealth of knowledge here.)
And I keep hearing this familiar verse banging around in my head:
Re 22:2 …….. And on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Makes you want to go Hmmm…
So when I hear someone, or hear of someone telling someone else how evil doctor prescribed drugs are, I just want to say “mind your own business!”
If God is directing our healing through the hands and wisdom of trained Doctors and Pharmacists, so be it. YOU can always inquire of the LORD as to what to do in each situation.
Reading about that CG leader just got me a little hot.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
It is hard to give whole stories in a blog. (as you know)
They were trying to figure out what was going on. In the care group setting they were asking for prayer and discussing just what was going on in there life.
Whenever I have an important issue, being close to the people in my care group, it is only natural to bring it up. (assuming your care group is mature) Church is a relationship between members. I am not asking them for a diagnosis, it just is a relationship, we are friends, they are involved in my life…obviosly there is wisdom in who you talk to, but I hope I made my point…If I was really sick, I would “gather the elders and lay on hands and pray” as part of any healing process.
After the stand the CG leader made, they felt they had to go to the pastor, because they saw that as somewhat doctrinal.
(dont read any defensiveness in that, I was in a hurry)
December 11th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
That got me thinking about the variation I have seen in Care Groups. I listed all the Care groups I have been in for at least 6 months, over the years, and put them in best to worst order. There are 8 of them.
Starting with best…
SGM
SGM
SGM
SGM
Denomination 1
Denomonition 2
SGM
SGM
I know we havent defined “Best”, so just chuck this up as one of those useless but interesting facts…
December 11th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Agreed Kris!
It is “breathtakingly bizarre”.
I sometimes am amazed at how people can be so concerned with privacy on one hand, and then just open up in ways that just leave them bare to the “mercy” of others in private matters.
Although I have a facebook page, it is almost bare because there is little I am willing to “share with the world.”
This forum is a little more open, but that is why I use a “handle” rather than my name. Some things I say can be traced to others who may or may not want to be revealed. Anybody who truly knows me can figure it out, as Merlin did, but it still needed to be confirmed.
It was in our terrible experience with SGM that I had to back track in my mind, “Just what did I ever say or not say?” At the end, Keith expressed to me how he didn’t like how I was so vague in most of my communication throughout our “disagreement.” And I just thought, yes, it is by design that I am vague to YOU! Keith was a master at using everything we said, against us. (He used to be an Air force Cop (Security Police)).
So, in light of that, I offer these two youtube presentations”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
They are part one and part two of the same law school class, and very informative about being wise when talking to police, or in this case with someone with power over you.
So, there ya go.
December 11th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
In response to 140. Dont misunderstand, they werent asking anybody IF it was ok Biblically to take meds. That wasnt what was going on. As the discussion was progressing and it was mentioned, that is when it took off….
I am not implying that any “sheperding” is happening…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Claireon #121…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
The Missus said,
“Even if someone appeared in my living room and rudely disagreed with me, I would still be polite to them and listen hard to try to understand what they’re saying and why they’re saying it.”
(And then you would proceed to give them an “observation” they’d NEVER forget!)
December 11th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
“There are hate sites for Windows 7 and brussel sprouts.”
As there should be…
December 11th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Going back to “hate,” I hate some things SGM has stood for. I love some things SGM has stood for. I hate SGM’s leadership paradigm. I love some of the local SGM leaders I knew personally.
December 11th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
AKS – No I wouldn’t. In all my sgm years, I have never, ever “given an observation” and I’ve never had anyone try to offer me one.
December 11th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Hello everyone, and Merry Christmas.
I was tooling through the mall today and I saw a mother spanking her 2 year old on the hip for squirming on Santas lap.
You may not squirm..You need to be grateful to see Santa….
I wished I could have video d this clip for youtube.
Its nice to be FREEEE
Good nite..
December 11th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
I was going to post the link to this article for Alyosha but decided to copy and paste it in it’s entirety for all to read.
“Calling A Spade A Spade”
Some think that it is wrong to point out false teachings and other kinds of evil and to call names, let alone to name who these false teachers are! Is this what we read in the scriptures?
In the scriptures, Jesus many, many times had serious confrontations with the religious leaders of his time. In fact it was the religious leaders who ultimately called for his death. (As mostly is the case……same is true for today) All through His life, they were waiting for the right moment.
“…For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18
“Some therefore of Jerusalem said, Is not this He who they seek to kill? And lo, He speaks openly, and they say nothing to Him…” John 7:25-26
“And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might put Him to death; for they feared the people. Luke 22:2
“Now after two days was the feast of the Passover and the unleavened bread: and the chief priests and scribes sought how they might take Him with subtlety and kill Him…” Mark 14:1
“But the Pharisees went out, and took counsel against Him, how they might destroy Him Matt12:14
“So from that day forth, they (the chief priests and Pharisees and council) took counsel that they might put Him to death. John 11:53.
Jesus called the religious leaders of His day “whited sepulchers”, “fools”, “blind guides”, “hypocrites”, “serpents”, “murderers”, “a generation of vipers,” and many such names. Jesus spoke this way to the religious leaders throughout His ministry. He virtually had nothing nice to say about them. But yet there are many in the church today who say that Jesus never spoke this way.
Read Matthew Chapter 23 again and see what it says. Jesus’ words, in practically the entire chapter, are directed at the scribes and Pharisees.
Do you think that Jesus would speak to the church leaders today in the same way?
Does Jesus change? Have the church leaders changed? Yes indeed. They’ve gotten worse!
You know as well as I, that if Jesus were to return today, there is not one church on the face of the earth who would hire Him to be their “Pastor”. Not one! And why is that? Because people today do not want to hear the truth. Their church leaders are fine outstanding men who deserve to be followed, thank you!
The scriptures speak of things getting worse and worse, and if you read carefully, it’s not talking about the world, but the church and the leaders in the church!
To be sure, when it came to the common people, Jesus was the “Humble Servant.” His ministry to them was marked with compassion. He “was moved with compassion for them.”
He gave the gospel to them.
He fed them.
He healed them.
He wept with them.
He spoke gently and mildly to them. “Martha, Martha,”………”Simon, Simon.”
He identified with the people and knew many were distressed, as sheep not having a shepherd.
When it came to the common people, Jesus ministered to them in meekness and gentleness, as His words showed.
But when it came to those in the church, went it came to the “great ones”, when it came to the church leaders and so-called experts in the law, something changed.
His ways, His mannerisms, His countenance, His words “EXPLODED.”
In all of His confrontations with the church leaders, you could see the difference in His whole attitude, especially in His words. Jesus was exposing their evils. He was exposing their false teachings and hypocrisy like no one ever did before. And in so doing, many others were starting to “see the light.”
His words were as the voice of a trumpet.
Likewise today, there is much evil lurking in many churches and in those in positions of “church leadership.” The unbiblical authoritarianism and spiritual abuse within the ranks of the so-called “eldership” is rampant.
The hijacking of many marriages by these wolves in sheep’s clothing resulting in the destruction of many lives is evil beyond words.
To speak of these atrocities in anything less than an angry, forceful tone would be almost impossible. Anger doesn’t have to be sin, just like God’s anger that is mentioned probably hundreds of times in the scriptures, is not sin.
Perhaps the time has come for some others to express a little anger at what is going on with these wicked shepherds who are killing and scattering God’s flock for their own power and glory and ego!
Perhaps the time has come for some others to express a little anger at these spiritual monsters who deliver their poisonous and blasphemous theology to so many unsuspecting souls, parents, and innocent children.
Yes, as we speak, there are many WHO KNOW what is going on.
As we speak, there are those in the church today who would readily stand up and say “NO” to the spiritual bullies and to flee from them and to deny them their control over them! Yet, for some, they also know that to do this would only invite persecution and a living death. So they remain.
But wouldn’t you rather suffer the former than to loose your soul and deny your Savior and Heavenly Father?
Many choose serving their spiritual bullies, thinking all the while they are serving their Lord.
Some also think that it’s wrong to name these people. They call it “spreading evil” or “trying to restrict this evil to only certain individuals and places.” As has been said over and over on this website, this is a world wide evil that is taking place.
And what do the Scriptures say of this anyway?
Look through the letters of the Apostle Paul. Many times he mentions specific individuals by name.
Galatians 2:11ff “But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed……and I said to Peter before them all….”
1 Timothy 1;19ff “…which some made ship wreck concerning the faith, of whom are Hymeneus and Alexander…..”
2 Timothy 2:17ff “…and their word will have growth like gangrene – of whom is Hymeneus and Philetus, who missed the mark concerning the truth…”
2 Timothy 4:10 “…for Demas deserted me, loving the present age…”
2 Timothy 4:14-15 “Alexander the coppersmith showed many evil things to me. The Lord will give to him according to his works. You also guard against him, for he greatly resisted our words.”
In 3 John verse 9, John named Diotrephes as one who does not receive the brothers, but throws them out of the assembly.
Jude exposes the errors of Balaam in verse 11.
In Revelation Chapter 2, twice the Nicolaitans are singled out and the warning is given concerning their works and their teaching.
And there are many from the Old Testament too.
We are living in a day when false teachers and their dastardly deeds abound. A faithful messenger will warn those in the churches. They will identify these churches by name, as well as their “leaders,” calling a spade a spade. Just like the Lord Jesus did; just like the Apostle Paul did, and others as well.
People’s lives are being destroyed. Marriages are being destroyed. It’s not enough to just “generalize” a situation or play games and “hint” at what is being said. Are there any faithful messengers around anymore?
Ken Cascio
Webmaster
http://www.wickedshepherds.com
December 11th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Hello, all. I’ve been “lurking” for a while now and have read through most of the posts for the past 8-9 months or so, working my way back. I’ve recognized a couple of you from your stories and believe there are probably more of you that I would know if I knew your names. Hello!
I’m both glad to “see” you and sad that you’re here. I am grieved to see the extent of pain that some of you have had to walk through, and I am glad that you find here a sense of community and support.
I’ve debated back and forth about posting and have finally decided to take the “plunge”. Get ready for a long post. Feel free to ignore if you don’t have the time…
(Also I wsn’t sure where to post since this doesn’t directly relate to the question at hand – so feelf ree to move it if need be.)
A little bit about me: I left SGM after 20+ years in 2 different SGM churches. Fortunately my leaving was not terribly difficult and did not cause the pain and turmoil that many of you have experienced. I did, however, walk through some situations during my time in SGM where I did not think things were handled “well” by those in leadership – and which caused much pain to me and to others I know and love. I will say that I do not believe there was ever any deliberate “abuse” in any of these situations – more that the men involved did not know how to handle the situations and did what they thought was right, but frankly, they messed up. Although I do not know their hearts, at times I believe they were more concerned with doing the right thing or having the right doctrine than they were with truly caring for the people involved (myself included) = loving DOCTRINE more than PEOPLE.
I had concerns over the years about some of SGM’s teaching – not necessarily the doctrine itself, but what I perceived to be the overemphasis of some doctrines over others (original sin and the cross vs. the resurrection and our new life in Christ), and some of the other spoken and unspoken teachings that seem to have gained more preeminence than I thought they should (i.e., the role of women, the extent of pastoral authority, homeschooling, the mistrust of mental health professionals, etc.) Many of these concerns have been raised by others in this website. I thank you all for sharing your own concerns, which have served to validate my own.
Since I have left, I will say that I have experienced an amazing sense of relief and freedom – ahhhh!
. After getting involved in a new church and seeing things done differently, I believe I can see more clearly how some of SGM’s “weaknesses” stack up to other good, Bible-believing churches with different emphases and forms of government. Seeing a different model of a church and hearing a different focus of teaching has helped me to clarify my concerns about SGM and has made me grateful that I am no longer a part of that particular group of churches.
All that said, however, I would like to add (at the risk of backlash) that at I am also somewhat concerned about the nature of some of the entries on this blog. Before you craft your eloquent, point-by-point reply (some very clear and gifted writers here, by the way), I would ask that you prayerfully hear what I have to say.
At times, this place seems like a supportive, loving group of individuals – at least, towards each other. At other times, however, I feel that some of the language and tone is overly strong/negative and can veer into the realm of unhelpful and even hurtful to those posting and those still within Sovereign Grace Ministries – who are, after all, our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Just as many of you state that SGM is not willing to admit that they may be in the wrong on certain issues or in certain circumstances (which I would not disagree with), it seems that SGM defenders are often dismissed, argued with, and essentially shut down simply because they are defending SGM – i.e., have a contrary opinion. Perhaps that is why they “drive by”, post their thoughts, and never come back – because you do not seem truly willing to dialog with them, only to express your grievances and get your point(s) across (again, many of which I agree with!)
If the intention of this blog is to serve as a support for those who have been hurt by SGM, then you are accomplishing your purpose. If the purpose of this blog is to warn those within SGM or those considering joining an SGM church, then you are accomplishing your purpose.
Is that your purpose?
If, however, your purpose is to call for reform within Sovereign Grace Ministries and care for individuals as a whole in the body of Christ, then I think you may be missing the mark. By the mere fact that some of you (not all) use language such as “cult”, “abusive” and “spiritual tyranny”, you are automatically putting anyone in Sovereign Grace or who has a favorable impression of Sovereign Grace on the defensive – and, frankly, understandably so.
By using this language, you are pronouncing judgment not only on the organization of SGM, but on the PEOPLE of SGM. You are saying about those still in SGM – who many of us love and care for – that they are “cult members” (implying that they are mindless, brainwashed followers who cannot and do not think for themselves). Without naming names and by making generalizations, you are calling many loving, godly and caring pastors “abusive” and “tyrants.”
It is one thing to pronounce judgment on a doctrine, an idea, or even a culture (such as I see SGM is). It is another thing all together to pronounce judgment on other human beings. It is one thing to share details about a situation that was not handled well and share how you were hurt by the situation. It is another thing to provide names, initials, or enough details so that the person/people involved would be recognized by those who were in that particular place in that particular time.
I read a story on this blog about a girl who grew up in a very unhealthy SGM church. She shared details about her early life and her parents (portrayed in a negative light), then went on to say that the family has moved to a new, healthier (SGM) church and they are all doing well. Great! However, I realized as I was reading that I know these people (not well, but I know them). I know these parents to be sincere, honorable Christians. I was not aware of their background and struggles during what was surely a very dark period of their lives – and, frankly, I do not need or want to be aware of it. It’s none of my business. And, while they have moved on from that time, I cannot help but think that, if I were in their position, I would not want the sordid details of my former parenting flaws to be broadcast to the world in the name of “support” for people coming out of SGM (or even in defense of SGM)– especially in a way in which they could be easily identified.
In another story, an incident was cited in which a pastor (no names, but initials, making it clear to anyone in that particular church) yelled at someone who was sincerely questioning a point of doctrine. Grievous? Definitely. Inappropriate? Absolutely. In need of an apology? Yes, without a doubt. But, does this mean that the pastor is “abusive”? Have any of you ever yelled at your children? Have any of you ever disciplined your children in anger? Have any of you neglected to go back and ask for forgiveness? I stand guilty. However, does that mean that I/we are “abusive” people? (Maybe some of us are, and hopefully God will convict us there!) Would you want your child or someone you know to go on line and share the stories of your darkest, most sinful moments with the world? I know I wouldn’t.
I think we need to be careful and draw the line between questioning/judging the doctrines, structure and practices of SGM as a whole – and questioning or judging specific people/leaders within SGM (some of whom, thankfully, are gone).
Even in the case of clear cut, substantiated abuse, do we really want to go shouting this from the rooftops? Is that our job? Or, is it God’s? Isn’t it up to HIM to bring the hidden to light on the final day? To separate the wheat from the chaff?
In Matthew 13:24-30 (the parable of the wheat and the tares – Please read if you get the chance), the owner’s servants ask the owner if he wants them to pull up the weeds. The owner answers, “No, because while you are pulling up the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest…” God is concerned about the wheat – the good, sincere Christians and leaders within SGM. If the workers (we) try to pull out the weeds prematurely (i.e., “take down” the “false teachers” in SGM leadership), we will take some of the good wheat with them (i.e., destroy other Christians). Instead, we are to wait and allow GOD to do this work on the day of harvest, or judgment day (or sooner, if HE sees fit).
That scripture gave me much peace and comfort in my pre-SGM days, when I did see (in another Christian group) what I considered to be clear cut abuse of power, manipulation, false doctrine, lack of integrity, etc. I struggled and struggled with how to handle it until I found (or should I say the Lord showed me) this verse. I realized that it is up to HIM to root out the false teachers, etc. in the body of Christ – in his timing and in His way. He may not do it right away because there is too much good wheat in the body of Christ that He CARES ABOUT = His beloved children. In the meantime, He can use even false teachers and the most sinful of men and women to proclaim His gospel and do His work – Praise God!!
I will clarify that I do not believe that the men in SGM leadership are “false teachers”, although I realize some of you may differ with me. Frankly, it does not matter if they are or not – it is not our place to know or judge. We are to judge doctrine, yes – and fruit – but not PEOPLE’S HEARTS.
However, even if these men ARE false teachers – or, at least, teaching false or unbalanced doctrine – Don’t we want to allow them every opportunity to repent? Don’t we want to grant them the same courtesy that we would want if we were in their place? If I was in error and sinned against people and then later repented, I would not want the stories of my sin spread all over the internet for anyone to see. It would be embarrassing, humiliating, and would cause me to struggle with hurt, unforgiveness and anger. Many of us (I include myself in this) have been falsely judged by those in SGM leadership. Motives have been assigned to our hearts that, frankly, were not true. It is hurtful, painful and confusing, especially coming from someone in authority. But, let us not be guilty of the same thing!!!
Perhaps there are people out there who are looking into becoming involved in an SGM church. Perhaps that is GOD’S PLAN for them (Just as a common complaint about SGM is the prevalent attitude that their way is the “best” way and everybody should be in an SGM church, so we can be guilty of saying that SGM is the “worst” way and there’s no way God wants anyone to be in an SGM church. How do we know how God wants to use SGM or its PEOPLE or leaders??)
Perhaps there are non-Christians out there who have friends in an SGM church who have been reaching out to them and sharing Jesus with them. Suppose they come across this site and see words such as “cult”, “abusive”, etc. This could damage not only any plan that God might have had for them to come to the Lord (maybe even through SGM – shock!), but also their relationship with a believing friend who they now view as a brainwashed cult member!
We are pulling out/hurting the wheat along with the tares!
Does anyone see my point?
I agree with most of your assertions. I really do. And, I feel much of your pain – although not to the extent that some of you do, I admit.
But, PLEASE, let’s try to remember that God’s kingdom is at stake here!
Can we tone down the language a little bit?
Can we allow for the fact that perhaps God is not ready to give up on SGM?
Can we allow for the fact that maybe there are people for whom SGM is God’s choice right now? And there might be more in the future?
Can we truly pray for their leaders that God would lead them out of any legalism and doctrinal mis-emphasis (I hesitate to say “error”) that they are in?
Or, at least, can we pray for the other believers – many of our friends and family – who are still there and believe that is where God has called them? Not just pray that God would lead them out of SGM, but that God would bless them and use them while they are there?
Let us keep in mind that there are real PEOPLE behind these stories, and there are real PEOPLE reading these posts who are hurting, struggling, and evaluating not just the words but also the attitudes portrayed behind those words.
As Christians, our goal should be to love these anonymous (and sometimes not) people –in or out of SGM – and, above all else, to glorify God in everything we do, say or blog!
Thanks for reading and considering. Sorry this was so long.
Blessings, grace and peace to you all!
December 11th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Hello Defender — thank you for the youtube links. I have a passing interest in this particular subject matter. However I am not able to hear, so would you very much mind emailing me a summary — not a transcript! — of these clips (I see that they are just under a half hour each). Kris can provide you with my email, if you are willing to do that.
Thanks so much!
Returning to lurking…..
December 12th, 2009 at 2:06 am
Observer-
Welcome to the site…I appreciate what you have said-but I disagree that we should avoid using words like, abusive, brainwashed, or cult. We really went back and forth on this about a year ago with many of us saying we hesitate to use the C word (myself included)-but sometimes calling a spade a spade is just what is needed…you know, the whole “the truth will set you free”.
Anyway-you may disagree with me-but I hope you feel free to add to the conversation when the Spirit moves you.
peace to you-mm
December 12th, 2009 at 3:07 am
Hello, Observer! You are an eloquent, gifted writer. I agree with many of your points. Thank you for taking the time to contribute.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:12 am
observer
I agree with Musicman. That’s why I posted #152.
There are LOTS of articles on the topic, many are better written and much deeper. I just happened to come across that one after reading Alyosha’s comment.
Do a “Google search” on the topic. (And SGM is certainly not the only ministry guilty.)
As I started praying about just how “bold” to be, God really convicted me to sound it from the rooftops.
Btw, you sound like a really nice person. I’m glad you found us.
December 12th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Observer wrote, “I think we need to be careful and draw the line between questioning/judging the doctrines, structure and practices of SGM as a whole – and questioning or judging specific people/leaders within SGM (some of whom, thankfully, are gone).”
AMEN!!!! We have been in and out and back in to our SGM church and have seen some of the abuses listed. We have been bible believing Christians for over 36 years and have been in several different churches. I just don’t think it’s fair to judge the entire organization for the sins of some of its leaders. I’ve seen people go to true cults and yet God was still able to save them and set them free. That said, I don’t believe SGM is a cult. The definition of a cult is a group that doesn’t believe in the trinity, the gospel, the deity of Jesus, etc. SGM does believe and preach those things on a regular basis.
December 12th, 2009 at 9:35 am
My husband was involved in a cult when he was very young and we’ve read Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin so we know what a cult is.
Most major denominations have problems in their ranks. Most churches have problems. That’s because we’re all sinners. Why don’t we start a blog about some of the other denominations out there. I’m sure there are plenty of people who have been hurt or abused in other churches outside the SGM structure.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:01 am
In my opinion, there’s absolutely nothing worse than a “bad marriage.” It’s so damaging, not only to the other spouse, but to the children, as well. It is actually the children that I grieve for the most.
During the course of my lifetime (and I’m now considered a “senior”) I’ve watched a lot of folks enter into a “bad marriage.” Some would have happened regardless of folks’ warnings, but many might have been prevented had those who cared about them persisted in calling their attention to the “warning signs.”
I am haunted by one in particular. I was young and my girlfriend was so in love with the young man. He was charming in every way, and treated her like a princess. Some friends began telling me “horror stories” about the young man – the typical symptoms of a narcissistic individual. I disregarded their stories thinking that they were probably just jealous that my friend was so happy. I was so convinced that they were wrong about the young man that I began defending him, and they eventually stopped trying to warn me.
I never shared my friends’ observations with my girlfriend, and I watched her happily say “I do” to the young man as I held her bouquet as her maid of honor. I wish I could tell you they lived happily ever after, but it has been a nightmare – a living hell – for her and her children. It was literally a “Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde” transformation after they married.
Rest assured, I now share when I have concerns about such with the folks I care about. As a matter of fact, I’m VERY VOCAL!! It doesn’t matter whether I’ve “personally” observed such behavior or not of the individual in question. If enough people begin sharing similar observations, it’s enough to convince me that I need to at least “warn” my friends. What kind of friend would I be NOT to do so?
I am *THOROUGHLY* convinced that Sovereign Grace Ministries, as an organization, (and a church CANNOT be a part of SGM unless they have convinced them that “they’re with them”) has the potential to harm my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don’t care “how nice” the pastors and members of a particular church may be. I have drawn this conclusion based on what I’ve observed personally and what enough people have shared of their own experiences. And I am *THOROUGHLY* convinced that God wants me to “shout it from the rooftops,” warning all those He brings in my path. It’s God’s business as to what He intends to do with Sovereign Grace Ministries – be it reform or annihilation. He’ll use my warnings whether I “present” them in a way that pleases everyone’s taste, or not.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Observer,
You just saved me some time trying to write the same things you did. Well said!
We can be gentle and humble with others (in the truest sense, not how you perceive SGM has mangled “humility”) even when we disagree. That’s what I’m trying to teach my kids, anyway. That’s what we want to see in our churches.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Mack, if you feel so led, feel free. There are certainly plenty already out there.
Observer, CJ himself cautioned CLC often not to use euphemisms for sin to avoid offending someone else’s delicate feelings. I think we do need to call abuse just that.
In my own life, which you can read a small version of by clicking on my handle (my initials BTW), I had to get to a place where I could call what was happening in my home abuse before I could get the help I needed. It’s in many ways similar to what an alcoholic must do.
We had a long conversation a number of months back about wheat and tares–perhaps on this site, but maybe on sgmrefuge instead. BTW, I think you’re right in that Survivors is more about support and warning. You may not know that the Refuge includes the reforming focus. You may be more comfortable there.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:44 am
When I had sgm pastors tell me that I couldn’t hear God’s voice and that I needed THEM to tell me what He was saying, that’s when I knew it was time to get out. Sometimes that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach when a lot of little things add up is what tells you that something is a cult.
Mindless following of leaders who tell you how to think? ….cult.
NOBODY should tolerate anyone being hurt or abused in any “church”. That’s not what being a follower of Jesus is about.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:04 am
“a” — That wiggly toddler at the mall is sure going to get a skewed perspective on life. But really, we could put Santa totally out of business if we just tell him that EVERYONE is naughty (deceitfully wicked!), and NO ONE is nice (no, not one)… So skip the presents already! Let everyone get a lump of coal in their stockings!
NONE of us deserves grace, but He gives anyway. That’s the real gospel! Hallelujah!
December 12th, 2009 at 11:05 am
It’s hard to “sugarcoat” abuse.
There’s really no “nice way” to go about warning folks, nor should there be. A “warning” is exactly what the word implies.
It’s all about one’s perspective. Some folks don’t see SGM as the threat that I do.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Hey, Observer -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I can appreciate what you say and how you say it. I guess my response to “observations” about this site is much the same as the way SGM defenders respond – “No blog is going to be perfect.”
I’m not going to put a huge amount of energy into censoring and editing what people share. Sometimes I’ve gone in and deleted portions of comments. (I’ve done this for people on both sides of the debate, by the way, as there have been several current SGMers who have written to me in a panic as they realized later that they likely would have “hell to pay” for what they shared.) But for the most part, people can tell what they wish about what happened to them. If someone is slightly indiscreet, the reality is that things move at a fairly quick pace here. Old conversations quickly get lost in the shuffle.
As to whether or not we can (or should) “judge” SGM and use terms like “cultic” and “abuse” – well, if I believe I see cultic and abusive elements, I’m going to share what I think about that. I’m going to call it as I see it. People are quite free to disagree. If they’re happy in SGM, I typically tell them to knock themselves out and enjoy it. I’m not here to convince everyone to leave SGM in droves.
But, honestly, if someone is looking for a church, I’d be hard-pressed to think they couldn’t find a better place than their “local” SGM church. I mean, since SGM has never located anywhere that is not already well-saturated with other Bible-believing, gospel-proclaiming churches, I can’t imagine that there’s not somewhere else for a “seeker” to go where they would be just a tad bit safer and more insulated from the potential of being subjected to controlling leaders and elements of “shepherding.”
I guess I’ve just heard too much about SGM’s dark side. It’s not about judging, exactly. But – if there were a restaurant where you yourself had experienced food poisoning, and if you knew of several others who’d also gone home from dinners there and hurled their guts out, how likely would you be to give an enthusiastic endorsement of the restaurant?
Or wouldn’t you, on the other hand, want to tell people that maybe the restaurant needs to clean up its act…pay more attention to hand-washing and food safety…and maybe, tell them that there are plenty of other restaurants out there without such a woeful track record?
That’s what this site is about. As Acme said, it’s really not so much about reform as it is about warning.
December 12th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Hi, all. Thanks for the welcome and the comments. I am doing a massive house cleaning today but checking in periodically to read your responses. I’ll be back later to comment more specifically.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Hi Observer,
You make some good “observations” (haha you probably knew someone would say that, but you set yourself up for that one
).
I could be wrong, but I tend to think that, generally speaking, there are a lot of areas where you agree with SGM on a fundmental level. So, it’s not so much a problem that their doctrine is wrong, for example, but that they “focus” (as you said) too much on it instead of people. Yes, leaders can lose their cool as you admit you have done (we all have done, etc), but the position that SGM leader assumes doesn’t seem to be a basic concern of yours, whether he’s behaving or not.
You seem to characterize SGM’s problems as imbalances. They just focus too much energy on certain emphases too often and they, perhaps, end up giving more attention to certain issues than they need to. But that’s no biggie. They’re just human, right? Brothers and sisters in Christ all bowing down to the same Savior.
Or is He the same Savior? Is The Savior of SGM the Jesus of the Bible?
See, this is where you and I would not agree, and why you would call for a moderate posture rather than a hard line. You seem to be basically in agreement with SGM, believing in their doctrines and their Savior in much the same way – just with a different approach.
If I believed that the SGM Savior was my Savior, or that SGM’s doctrines were sound and bibical, then sure…a lot of this would be nothing more than hot air proceeding from angry and bitter hearts, wouldn’t it?
I don’t call for peace with SGM, I call for a sword.
December 12th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Hmmm…I keep seeing that word…”observations.”
December 12th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
First of all – I didn’t connect the “observer” tag with the ol’ SGM “bringing an observation” – Sorry! I just meant that I’ve been observing and listening and trying not to jump to conclusions either way – i.e., stay relatively neutral.
ACME – I read your story and I am deeply sorry for what you had to go through. I am glad that you have found here a community that can relate to your difficulties with SGM (although if I were you I think I might have as many or more “difficulties” with my ex-husband!)
You said to me, “You may not know that the Refuge includes the reforming focus. You may be more comfortable there.” I don’t know if you meant it this way, but that kind of sounds like the old, “If you don’t agree with us here, you can go to the church down the street.” Ouch!
KRIS – You said, “I can appreciate what you say and how you say it. (Thanks) I guess my response to “observations” about this site is much the same as the way SGM defenders respond – “No blog is going to be perfect.”
I must say you took me off guard with that response. You are using SGM logic – which you constantly point out as flawed – to defend your position?! Yikes!!!
Does that mean it’s OKAY??!!! It’s okay to expose and hurt people in a public forum because, well, nobody’s perfect? I’ve gotta think some more about that one…
A few of you mentioned feeling an obligation to warn people about SGM –
If someone who was considering becoming part of SGM – or leaving SGM – came to me and asked me for my input, I would feel a responsibility to share with them my concerns. (I would probably even volunteer them, especially if it was someone I knew well) And, frankly, I would probably NOT recommend an SGM church (although I would be less hesitant to recommend one church I attended than the other – some of you seem to insist that there are NO good SGM churches, and I think there is quite a variety within the “fold.” It would also depend on what type of person they were.) I would share my observations, my experience, perhaps some of the instances mentioned on this site, and then encourage them to pray and seek God about where they are supposed to be. That way they would be forewarned, know what to expect, know what to watch out for, etc. And, they could make their own educated decision before God.
My concern is this: Could it be that, just as we fault SGM, we are trying to be God for others and tell them where they are NOT supposed to be? Jesus was God. He knew the hearts of men and he knew clearly who the “false teachers” were. (Yes, we could go off on a tangent about the humanity of Jesus – but I don’t want to argue theology) We don’t know for sure who is a “false teacher” or not (as opposed to someone who truly loves the Lord but has just gotten off base). We won’t until God reveals it on the last day. And, we shouldn’t claim to.
We can identify and warn people against doctrine and unbiblical practices – and, in certain situations, even people/leaders where there is clear, documented abuse (but I would argue that this should be done privately in order to allow for the future repentance of the leader). I could even buy an argument that says, “Look closely at their practices, teachings and form of government. Do you see any cult-like tendencies?” But, to automatically judge the organization as a “cult” – which, again, judges ALL their people as “cult followers” and ALL their pastors and care group leaders as “cult leaders” – That, I don’t think is justified – or loving.
Claireon – You said, “If I believed that the SGM Savior was my Savior, or that SGM’s doctrines were sound and biblical, then sure…” Can you clarify for me? Do you think the PEOPLE in SGM are not worshipping Jesus? Do you believe that they are not Christians? If so, that causes me great concern. You are, again, using a practice that I have heard complained about in SGM – making assumptions about the state of someone else’s soul – saying that perhaps they are not Christians because they did such and such or do not agree with certain doctrines…. But, maybe I’m misunderstanding you. ??
And your next statement – “I don’t call for peace with SGM, I call for a sword.” Sorry, that’s just plain scary. Are you talking about a sword against people, against false teachings, or what? I find that statement very disturbing – not to mention taken out of context. Jesus was not talking about Christians fighting other Christians.
Back in my hidey hole…
December 12th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Observer I havent used anything out of context and yes, I do not believe that SGM is leading people into the worship of the true Jesus. If you want to assume that I’m saying that everyone in SGM is aware of that and not being abused or victimized…then I don’t know what you’ve been reading. You sure it’s been this blog?
December 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Claireon -
So… Are SGMers Christians in your mind? Are they worshipping a different “Jesus” in the sense of, say, a Mohammed or a Joseph Smith? Please clarify what you mean by this.
Who are you calling for the “sword” against?
I still don’t think I’m understanding you.
December 12th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Observer,
I’m not “trying to BE God” for people by telling them not to go to an SGM church. I’m just providing a place where people can read about SGM’s dark side. It’s my belief that SGM has a dark side that is MUCH MORE SERIOUS than the mere flaws and random sins that happen in other churches.
SGM’s dark side is systematic. And systemic. It’s inherent in the structure of their governance, and in what they teach about obeying authority. And in what they believe “humility” to be. And how they define the offenses worthy of church discipline. And lots, lots more.
I wouldn’t speak as strongly as Claireon has, but I’m also of the mind that there simply MUST be a place online where folks can learn about the things that SGM has done. Otherwise, how can they make wise decisions in the church selection process? Yes, God leads us to particular churches. But He also calls upon us to use our own brains and analytical thinking skills that He Himself has given to us. How can people arm themselves against the sorts of abuse that SGM has meted out if there’s no place where that sort of information is made public?
When we were attending our SGM church, I spent many months in a state of weird confusion. I sensed so much stuff beneath the surface but totally lacked the ability to articulate what it was that was troublesome, beyond the observation that there were strong themes of control running throughout much of what our SGM church did, in all sorts of facets of life. I spent, quite literally, what probably amounted to DAYS searching for information about what I was seeing.
That’s why I tossed up this site in the first place. I had no idea – truly, no idea! – that there had been as much serious garbage as there had been, but I nonetheless felt that maybe my own thoughts about our SGM experience might help others so that they’d know they weren’t alone and crazy in feeling like something wasn’t quite right.
And that’s still why the site is what it is.
When I said that “no blog is perfect,” that was meant in a sort of humorous tongue-in-cheek way, of course. But the reality is that although I can understand why people have developed the deep-seated habits of offering up unsolicited advice on how to fix flaws and make improvements, I don’t much care about what people want to read here. It is what it is. If it bugs you, or offends you, or if you think people are wrong in what they’ve written, then…don’t read here.
Really. It’s that simple.
I don’t mean that to be rude. In your comments, you come across like a lovely person. But if all you’re here to contribute is what we’re doing wrong, then I don’t know that it’s going to be anything less than frustrating for you to keep commenting.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
observer –
As we speak there is really no room for individuality or independence in SGM. SGM Christians relinguish their sovereignty to Sovereign Grace Ministires. You are taught to obey and submit to the leadership and to their man-made doctrines.
Read Kris’s anaylsis of the teaching on school “choices” for parents in SGM. In SGM fashion, those attending Mr. Somerville’s talk were led through the “choices”, were given a summary, and then left with the conclusions. People might have felt as though they arrived at those conclusions, but they didn’t. They were given conclusions to accept, and for most SGM’ers, thats good enough.
SGM is based on a tribal system. It’s no surprise that CJ Mahaney is so into sports,and that sports are a determiner of masculinity in SGM. SGM puts you into an alpha state – an hypnotic state – where people accept what they are told without thinking or reasoning for themselves.
If anything, SGM is a cult of personality which influences a lot of people who have allowed themselves to be willfully gullible. CJ Mahaney is like a father figure who you see imitated by others, and you are lead through new topics – and introduced to experts on the topics (Spurgeon, Owens, Luther, and the recommended reading lists) – while they stand there in front of you feeding you information which you aren’t allowed to interact with or question. You leave all the “meetings” along with the others in your peer group that you desire to be apart of, bouncing back thougths and ideas with them that they agree with because you’re all fed the same information that you have been programmed to accept.
SGM isn’t entirely to blame for this, of course. It’s mostly due to the culture we live in. However, the church is the vanguard of the Kingdom. The church is set apart from the world, not conformed to it or by it.
As for the SGM Savior being the real Jesus Christ? He’s not. That’s not to say that no one in SGM is worshiping the true Jesus in their hearts, but if they are submitting themselves to SGM and believing in what they believe, then yes, they are not worshiping Jesus Christ, but rather SGM’s version of “The Savior.”
For me, this goes into ways of thinking that are controversial here. For example, I absolutely do not believe there is hierarchy in the Trinity. I believe this is heresy and was identified as such centuries ago. It has been a recent redevelopment that SGM has always been on board with. Throughout my time in SGM I was unaware of this, but it is used as the basis for t how they subordinate others to their leadership and women, as a whole, within the church.
Furthermore, why you would assume my using the word “sword” meant that I am advocating violence scare me. When used in the correct context, my use of the word “sword” meant dissension and I trust that was clear to the majority of readers.
December 12th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Hi, Observor, my internet went out just as I was responding earlier.
First, I frequent both Survivors and Refuge regularly–I just thought you might be more comfortable in a forum that includes a focus on reforming SGM, rather in one that doesn’t. I’m not saying go away.
Second, I think my estranged husband’s problems–and indeed our family problems–were exacerbated at SGM in ways that they wouldn’t have been at another church. BTW, he has been restored to fellowship at CLC (in part, I believe at my request in my letter to CJ through Jim at Refuge. As to my difficulties with SGM, I’m more in Claireon’s camp.
December 12th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Claireon,
I never did make that Andy Farmer transcript you referenced available to the general public.
December 12th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
And oops – it wasn’t a talk by Andy Farmer. Greg Somerville actually gave the teaching on “School Choices.”
December 12th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Sorry about that Kris. I got my wires crossed. I thought that was made available here. I trust someday that you will make it available because I think it’s a good example of how SGM engineers information and builds an artificial sense in people’s minds that they are actually given the freedom to make choices – to think for themselves.
The choice SGM gives its members is to agree with the leadership and go along with the way they lead and instruct.
December 12th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Kris said in #166, “I’m not going to put a huge amount of energy into censoring and editing what people share.” I can totally understand that, not only because of the time but because then you might misrepresent what someone is trying to say.
That’s why it is up to each one of us to be “on the honor system” no matter which camp we are in or if we are straddling the fence. In other words, watch your OWN words and decide if that is what you truly want to communicate — whether that shows honor first of all to our Lord Jesus, and second of all, to other people who are reading your words. They most likely don’t know you and your whole story. All they’ve got of you is the impression you make here, and sometimes it’s so hard to pick up the nuances of how serious someone is being, whether they are hurt or flippant or whatever. It’s a temptation to let my fingers fly, but I try to apply the Philippians 4:4-8 test: whatever is good, noble, true… That means I often have to erase something before I post it, whether it is here or on my own blog.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Claireon – Thank you for clarifying that you did not mean you were advocating the use of “violence” by saying the “sword.” I can assure you that possibility that you were advocating actual violence against SGM never crossed my mind. It just seemed like an awfully strong statement. That is why I asked for clarification. Frankly, I am still not quite sure what you DO mean, but I’m not sure we need to continue along that vein. I’m also not completely sure that I understand your point about a “different Jesus” – but I get the idea that we would probably not see eye to eye on that either, so perhaps we should let that drop. And, you still didn’t quite answer my question: Do you believe that SGMers are Christians??
ACME – Thanks for clarifying about the “referral” to Refuge. I can see your point, and I think you may be right that I would be more comfortable there. However, I’m not quite sure I’m ready to leave here yet, despite a second reference that makes me feel, well, not quite so welcome:
(from Kris) “I don’t much care about what people want to read here. It is what it is. If it bugs you, or offends you, or if you think people are wrong in what they’ve written, then…don’t read here. Really. It’s that simple.”
Sorry, but again, that sounds (and feels) an awful lot like the ol’ SGM, “If you don’t agree with us, you can go to the church down the street.”
Just sayin’…
Kris – Perhaps I have not expressed myself well. I do not think people are “wrong” in what they have written. (In fact, I would say that I agree with most of the “weaknesses” of SGM that people have brought up here, and could easily provide more “fuel for the fire” if I chose to). My concern is that the WAY in which these concerns are expressed (= the strong language) can be very off-putting to those of us still trying to work through/clarify our issues and not firmly in the “SGM is a cult” camp – and, as I have stated before (and more importantly), HURTFUL to other people. I think that, while you are trying to do good (and are for some), you may actually be “turning more people off” than you realize – and, you are lessening your credibility with anyone partially in the SGM camp simply because of the tone and language used here.
I believe that this blog has the potential to be used for good, and I’m sure it already has. However, I also believe this blog has the potential to be used for evil. I think, frankly, you are deceiving yourself if you think otherwise (sorry, I’ve gotta “call a spade a spade” there.)
Honestly, I believe the same thing about SGM. It can be used for good or evil. I believe it is SGM’s responsibility to maximize the good for the kingdom of God, and minimize the damage that they do in other people’s lives.
I believe the same goes here – it is our responsibility as posters to maximize the good and minimize the bad that we do for the kindgom of God. Shouldn’t we take EVERY PRECAUTION to ensure that we are not hurting other believers with our posts? KS said earlier (sorry to pick on you, KS), “He’ll use my warnings whether I “present” them in a way that pleases everyone’s taste, or not.” Isn’t it more palatable to us when someone confronts us in a kind and gentle way than when they beat us over the head with arguments and harsh language? – even in an anonymous blog? Frankly, warnings that do not “please our tastes” often fall on deaf ears – at least, I know they do with me. So, as we “confront” others with the flaws of SGM, shouldn’t we choose our words carefully and try to make them “palatable” to our hearers? (Galatians 6:1, James 3:5-10)
I’m still mulling other things to say, but this is getting too long so I’ll quit. (Sorry, brevity is not my specialty – as you may have noticed!
)
Grace and peace.
P.S. I have seen/heard “snippets” of Greg S’s views on homeschooling, with which I disagree (therefore I feel no need to listen to the whole thing). I had my kids in public school while in SGM and still do. So, you’re preaching to the choir on that one.
P.P.S. Kris, thanks for allowing me “free speech” and not editing my comments. I was kind of wondering if you might but I appreciate your openness and willingness to let me post as I see fit.
December 12th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
One other thing observer…
Are you not aware that people can call someone Jesus, or (as in the case of SGM) “The Savior”, and use God’s Word, but misinterpret things so well that people don’t realize they are being taught falsehood?
The serpent convinced Eve of something by using God’s name (not Mohammad or Joseph Smith), and then twisting His Word so that Eve ended up believing that what the serpent was telling her was the truth.
I believe that SGM takes God’s Word and makes it sound like the truth, but they put their own twist on it – so much so that they have manufactured a different Jesus and a different gospel.
December 13th, 2009 at 1:01 am
The way I’ve been burnt from Sovereign Grace Ministries still hurts. I have been controled, told what to read, what to listen to, if I should color my hair, where and when I should travel etc, etc..And now I’m “out”
I can’t hear “caution” about saying anything about a ministry that twists the story Jesus resurecting, His unconditional love for me and for the lost. I’m ok with saying ABUSIVE, CULT ETC but it doesn’t matter anyways because I’ve been shunned and cut off from most of my life long friends, while the leadership is still hurting the body of Christ.
It sounds offensive, but anyone that knows me, knows…I wouldn’t wish what I went through on anyone, or recomment anyone for any reason to participate in Sovereign Grace ministries.
Merry Christmas to all, and to All a good nite…
December 13th, 2009 at 1:20 am
a –
I posted my last post before I saw yours.
I am truly sorry for what you have been through. Obviously some of us have had it worse than others in SGM, and you are one of those. I pray that God will continue His healing work in you and bring you into His abiding peace.
This scripture came to mind. I hope it is meaningful to you:
“The Lord your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing.” (Zephaniah 3:17)
Blessings,
Observer
December 13th, 2009 at 1:37 am
Observer…
Sigh.
That’s what I feel like doing when I read your comments about how “something doesn’t feel right” here. Again – if it doesn’t feel right, then don’t read or participate here.
Really.
I’m not out to “turn on” anyone currently working through his or her issues with SGM. If someone is “turned off” by what they read here, or the tone used, or whatever, then – well – they’re not in a place to read here. Simple as that. This site ain’t for them.
What is with all this “constructive criticism”? It’s not like y’all are paying customers, or anything. It’s not like I’m getting any kind of compensation for doing this blog. It all just sort of got thrown into my lap, and there are days when I just have to laugh at the way some people come across.
Again, I would liken this thing to opening up my living room to the public and having people come in and complain to me about how it was decorated, or the sort of food I was serving, or the way that some of my guests smelled. Or whatever.
Nobody is making people come around here and read. I’m not seeking out an audience, either. I have NEVER done a single thing to “promote” this site in any way. I have NEVER, for instance, gone around to other blogs and posted the link to this site in hopes of garnering more traffic. I have never sought to bring SGMers over here and in some way dissuade them from their loyalties to SGM.
And yeah, this site is open to differing points of view. Sort of. To a degree. But I’m not going to publish any more of your lectures. I’m tired of this. If you don’t like how this site is done, you could always start your own. And I promise you, I won’t come around and offer up sugar-coated critiques of all the things you’re not doing right. I’d assume that you wouldn’t care about my opinion…and that I really had no right to offer it over and over again.
December 13th, 2009 at 1:55 am
Wow.
Looks like my last post has been “censored” and I’ve been “excommunicated”
No lecture here. Just an observation.
Kinda proves my point.
December 13th, 2009 at 2:07 am
Observer,
This is a BLOG, not a CHURCH. You can’t get “excommunicated” from a blog. I also don’t demand that you pay tithes here.
And I promise that I won’t “lovingly pursue” you by going to future blog moderators and telling them how persistent you are in whipping me into better shape with your “constructive” (yeah, right) criticisms. I won’t hold a “family meeting” in which I tell all the rest of the blog members (oops, that’s right – we don’t HAVE members) to treat you as an unbeliever.
I won’t do anything like that.
I’m still just sort of scratching my head over your loquacious posts, in which you’ve been so determined to evaluate and critique the site and hold forth with your opinions about what we are doing wrong here. Whatever point you think you’re proving about my (and others’) criticisms of SGM, you’re forgetting that there’s one important parallel that is lacking: you are using THIS forum to do all your “observations,” rather than your own forum. If I were truly behaving like the boys over at SGM, I would never have allowed comments at all. But if the boys DID allow comments, I certainly wouldn’t expect to hold forth with my ideas over on THEIR sites.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Kris –
I realize that you probably won’t post this, and that is fine.
My knee-jerk reaction to your “censoring” my post is to go to the other blog and “warn” people – “shout it from the rooftops” that information here is “controlled”, that anyone with an opposing viewpoint is silenced and/or shown the door, and that the leader reacts “sinfully” (or, at least defensively – but not abusively) when “observations” are made.
Fortunately I slept on it and decided that is not my job (at least, not right now). The reason: Because I don’t want to hurt YOU as a person. And, I believe that God may be using some of you here, so I don’t want to shut down his work (The analogy holds.)
Please understand that I am not accusing you – any more than I am accusing SGM. I just think you’ve been fed a steady diet of SGM’s “dark side” and it’s hard to see things any other way (sound familiar?)
If you ever want to talk personally about this, I would sincerely be happy to. You know where to reach me.
And, if (by chance) this entry is being published, then to anyone else out there who is curious what Kris and I are talking about and/or would like to discuss this further – Kris, feel free to pass my email along.
Blessing to you.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Observer said,
“I believe that this blog has the potential to be used for good, and I’m sure it already has. However, I also believe this blog has the potential to be used for evil. I think, frankly, you are deceiving yourself if you think otherwise (sorry, I’ve gotta “call a spade a spade” there.)”
This blog is over 2 years old! The traffic and the comments speak volumes about what it’s accomplished, and IS STILL accomplishing! It certainly appears it’s progressing just fine without your “recommendations.”
The “truth” has a tendency to do that, regardless of how “palatable” it is. If you’ve been successful parenting, ask your children how “palatable” your counsel was when it was something they didn’t want to hear. See, you don’t know me, and you’ve obviously not read very much on the blog or you wouldn’t have made that statement. Once again, you walked into “Kris’ living room” and overheard pieces of the conversation and started offering your “recommendations” without knowing what had been said previously, OR the character of the people conversing.
The posters on this blog are not the ones with carnage lying all around them. That’s your SGM buddies. If you REALLY want to make a difference go and stumble in over the bodies into “their living rooms” and offer up some “recommendations” to them.
And observer, I know as the written word this comment has come across strong and harsh. But I’m saying it very calmly and with a “you-just-don’t-have-a-clue” kind of smile on my face as I address you as my sister-in-Christ.
I can almost assure you I’ve seen more damage from SGM than you. I’m ON the battlefields and dressing the wounds of the injured. It’s not “past tense” for me. When you’re on a battlefield, your tone comes across a “little intense” at times.
December 13th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Well I wanted to weigh in on the whole “what people would think about Sovereign Grace Ministries, or where I would send people to etc thought”
For over 20 years it was about the “church” It was about CJ, Spurgeon, Piper, Josh y Harris, conferences, celebration, New Attitude, Womens retreat, Youth retreat..alright already…
What about now…
Its just about pointing others to God. I was tooling around at my little part time seasonal help job the other day and a coworker asked me to turn down a little promotion that I might be offered. She told me how hard her life has been (over all) because of mistakes she’s made. She cried over loosing her house, her husband and other really hard things. She said if I turned down this little promotion, she thought she might be next in line, and she really needed this boost.
She told me overall she thought I was overqualified all together and could possible get another job elsewhere, because I had other qualifications where she did not, and after leaving an abusive husband, and being over 50 this was her first “real” job.
I quietly prayed as she spoke. This woman was not “stepping over me” or backbiting behind the scenes, but sharing all this stuff…what am I supposed to say or do?
In the past I would have invited her to Sovereign Grace Ministries. I would have tried to tell her about her sins and make the link of why she couldn’t have done better in her life and her sins. And then pointed her to the “cross” A dead bloody Jesus..and thats it.
Now, I talked to her about trusting God. I told her about my own walk with the Lord, and how things in my life are scarey sometimes (if only she knew), and that who knows if they would offer me the promotion or not? So I go though life trusting God. The God who loves me unconditionally..I have not worked for over a year and a half and God has provided beautifully for me. Through her tears and tattoes, I gave her a big stinking hug and laughed about some other things…
So thats what I’ve concluded its not about a church (Sovereign Grace Ministries), or a man…it is about God.
I hope they pic her….I really do…a
December 13th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Observer,
Here’s what you don’t understand – you could warn everyone you can think of about this blog, and I wouldn’t care. It wouldn’t hurt me as a person. I’m just not that invested in this SGM thing. I’ve said from the beginning that I have no horse in this race. There’s nothing in it for me.
Besides, I think if you told people that you were censored, they’d be puzzled. You’ve held forth a good deal over the past day or two, saying the same repetitive things. Your opposing views are there for all to see.
I just got tired of responding to the same thing again and again.
See, again, a blog is not a church. Moreover, I don’t purport to have any “authority” over people or put pressure on them to submit to my “leadership.” If a person doesn’t feel like his views are accepted here, it’s really not like the person will lose anything by moving on to another blog or starting one of his own. It’s not like the person will watch decades of friendships vaporize, for instance.
It’s a blog – not a church.
Plus, I think I’ve been fairly open about the fact that I have developed my opinions about SGM. I’m not neutral, and a lot of others who post here are not neutral or unsure of their views of SGM. I’ve said this in many places, in many ways. If you go back through the old posts, you’ll see that I’ve pretty much been on the same side of the SGM fence, with the same opinions, for quite a long time. It’s not like I’ve ever portrayed myself as really open-minded and welcoming of correction, only to turn around and turn on you and start pointing out YOUR sins when you come to me with correction.
I’ve even SAID, in the “Read This Before You Post” section, that if a person dives into the conversation with correction on his mind, he may not like the response he gets.
How much more clear could it be?
December 13th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Observer,
You need to spend some time here to understand that the mindset of the moderators and at least a few of the posters here is strictly “us against them”. Them being SGM generally and the majority of those in leadership at SGM specifically. I don’t say this to be unkind but because it’s the best way I can come up with to describe the general dynamic here. By way of illustration, you may know Mr. X to be a great guy, you’ve known him for years and always had a good relationship with him, but if you stumble into an XMXA meeting (EX-Mr. X Anonymous) meeting where a group of people are talking about what a jerk Mr. X is and how badly they’ve been treated by him over the years, you aren’t going to be able to win them over. They may be right, wrong or as is generally the case some mix of both, but if you defend him you are automatically in the camp of Mr. X and unless you renounce allegiance to him and embrace their cause you are on the wrong side of the debate (wrong side of the debate, is that an oxymoron?).
So my advice is watch, read and evaluate. Address straw men, false syllogisms and the like as you see them but do so politely, it won’t matter to many here but it might make a difference for a few.
Chuck
December 13th, 2009 at 11:38 am
The thing is, I just have a hard time understanding why people think it’s cool to interact here primarily in the mode of offering up correction.
I don’t get that confrontational mentality.
As I’ve said again and again, I’d never consider going around to pro-SGM blogs and critiquing the posters there…telling them what I liked and did not like about their site. And if, by some bizarre stretch of the imagination, I did do that, I wouldn’t be surprised when the posters defended themselves and didn’t immediately bow to what I’d said and agree with my criticisms.
Where does that urge to be so confrontational come from?
Here we sit, chatting among ourselves, and Observer blows in to set us all straight. And then she’s surprised when I don’t like it and have something to say in response? And when I grow weary of her comments and don’t post one of them that was exceptionally long and involved (but nonetheless saying the same things that had already been said), she accuses me of censorship?
I guess some habits die hard…the habit of corrective confrontation (“bringing an observation”) being one of them.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Kris,
I just caught that comment in you last post. Did you really refuse to post something with a contrary position? I’ve posted here enough times that you probably know the parallels I am tempted to draw about “the approved reading list” and…well…you know.
Chuck
December 13th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
“The thing is, I just have a hard time understanding why people think it’s cool to interact here primarily in the mode of offering up correction.”
“I don’t get that confrontational mentality.”
“I guess some habits die hard…the habit of corrective confrontation (”bringing an observation”) being one of them.”
EXACTLY, Kris!!!!!!!!!
December 13th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
It’s arrogance and self-righteousness.
And speaking of SGM’s practice of “bringing an observation,” is anyone familiar with Dave Harvey’s teaching on the subject, “The Surgeon, The Scalpel & The Saint In Sin?”
December 13th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Chuck,
I’ve frequently mentioned that this blog is a moderated blog. While almost all comments do get published, there are times when I delete things…like when people keep repeating themselves. Or when I just don’t feel like expending the mental energy to respond.
Again, this site is not (and has never purported to be) a church organization. It’s a blog conversation. Guy and I are the moderators. We feel a certain responsibility to answer accusations and to respond to people who express their disagreements. Although I think I’m a pretty free ‘n’ easy blog hostess, it ultimately still is MY site.
So if someone keeps hammering away and won’t back down, they may find that their comments stop getting published.
Again, ANYONE is free to start a site and say what they want. If a person doesn’t like this site’s approach, or thinks that he can do better, he’s more than able to set up something and go for it. We don’t collect tithes…we don’t pretend to be all humble and receptive to whatever correction people feel like dishing out…we’re the hosts…if you don’t like it, nobody is coercing you to stay, and there’s certainly no lasting ramifications for you if you leave.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, yeah, there can be some instances where Guy and I just don’t feel like providing a free-for-all forum so that anyone can spout off in any way that they like. That’s just the way it is.
December 13th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
This may sound like it’s coming from left field, but here are my thoughts…
I’d like to think that I am secure enough in who I am and what I think to not NEED to tell other people in a blog conversation that I disagree with them.
As I read posts, I sometimes think people are unkind, or bitter, or in attack mode. But the truth is, I don’t really know these people, and I am not in the living room with them and able to pick up on their expressions and body language, or ask them to clarify.
All posts here, even the agressive posts, are helpful, because I get the opportunity to apply the motto:
“Discern, Decide, Seek God’s Truth”
December 13th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
Hi, Chuck and QE2. Glad to hear some different voices!
Yes, I wrote an entry that Kris chose not to post – i.e., censored. I would not call it exceptionally long or repetitive (okay, maybe a little long, but not “exceptionally” so). I can also assure you it was not aggressive. Please read my earlier posts to try discern my tone and attitude – it was along the same lines. I believe Kris called it “sugar-coated.”
Basically, it was something Kris’ didn’t want to hear – and/or didn’t want others to hear. Yes, it’s hard not to draw the parallel.
Kindred Spirit – If you have not read what I wrote, then how can you know if it is arrogant or self-righteous? You are basing your asumptions on Kris’ opinion. Interesting parallel there as well.
I have been asked 3 times now to leave the “living room” (and not very nicely). Funny, I thought this was a public blog, not a private living room.
But, as Kris said, she has the right to control what she chooses to post here. You each can draw whatever conclusions you like about that.
Peace to you all.
December 13th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Observer -
I can assure you that you didn’t say anything I “didn’t want to hear.” That is NOT why your comment didn’t get posted.
And no, you weren’t asked to “leave the living room” – I just suggested that if you didn’t like what you saw here, you were free to move on. That’s a simple fact. You’ve continued to express your displeasure in what people have said and how they’ve said it. The site obviously bugs you. Why keep reading? Why keep interacting?
I’m sort of curious about why you are so hell-bent on offering up your opinions and your corrections?
After awhile, it’s just downright…well…self-righteous and icky.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
QE2 — I like what you wrote out of “left field.” “As I read posts, I sometimes think people are unkind, or bitter, or in attack mode. But the truth is, I don’t really know these people,…”
The spectrum of disappointment, hurt, bitterness, etc., represented here is wide.
The amazing thing to me — whether the post is agressive, bitter, or not — is that over and over again, we see that pastors, caregroup leaders, and members of SGM have felt free to “advise” people in coercive ways. Some people find that behavior within their definition / connotation of “cult” and/or “abuse.” Personally, I would not apply the word “cult”, but I would use “abuse”, if not of people directly, abuse of authority, and probably both in some circumstances.
Clearly, there are those who would return to SGM IF and only IF massive changes took place. There are others who would NEVER return. I’m for listening to all, whether or not I agree with the way they word their thoughts.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Hi, all. Just to clarify in case you missed it in my previous posts:
I am NOT an SGMer. I left. I am very glad I left. I have significant issues with SGM.
Kris – You said “You’ve continued to express your displeasure in what people have said and how they’ve said it.”
Please go back and re-read my posts and you will discover that I have not disagreed with any of the CONTENT of what anyone has said. In fact, I have specifically said that I agree with many if not most of your points. Philosophically speaking, I am more in your “camp” than you think.
I have simply argued for:
(1) a kinder, gentler approach with less “strong” language because I think your message will be better received by those you are trying to “win over”.
(2) discretion when sharing negative posts about specific people who can be easily identified – because this could be hurtful to our brothers and sisters in Christ.
(3) openness to the idea that perhaps God can still use SGM, though flawed – just like He can use this blog, though flawed.
And, I am ALL FOR “Discern, Decide, Seek God’s Truth”. Well said!
December 13th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Observer -
I appreciate the clarification.
But again, I am NOT trying to “win over” anyone to think of SGM in a certain way. If someone is undecided about SGM and decides to read here, I truly do not have any particular direction that I want them to go. I am pretty definite in what I think and in what I’ve observed about the patterns and really strong tendencies within SGM. I will dialog with people rather forcefully about my opinions.
But if they don’t like what I (or others) say, or they don’t like the way we say things, and if that makes them choose not to share my opinions about SGM, I really could NOT care any less.
I don’t know how to explain it any more clearly than that.
The info is here. It is what it is. I think it would actually be dishonest to urge people to censor themselves when expressing their opinions of SGM. If someone has identified cultic patterns in their SGM experience, they ought to be able to say so. If that sort of thing makes someone “on the fence” fall off the fence and land on the pro-SGM side, well…all righty then.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Kris – I realized that I did not address your (3 emphatic) “This is not a church” comments.
I realize that. It is simply an on-line gathering – I mean group – of believers.
December 13th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
I’ve written about this before, but one of the things that I find interesting is that I’ve noticed that SGMers tend to have their own style of communication that is different than what one would find in “normal” Christianity.
If you listen to any SGM teaching, you will tend to find a LOT of disclaimers, a LOT of beating around the bush, a LOT of the famous Josh Harris/CJ line of, “Don’t hear what I’m not saying.”
A big part of this is (in my opinion) because of how they want to lead people to make certain very specific choices and do certain very specific things, but they do NOT want to be “on the record” as actually outright advocating those specific things.
Like, in the teaching that Greg Somerville gave on schooling choices, he appeared to go out of his way to say that a bunch of different options could be good choices in certain circumstances. He went round and round with tons of disclaimers about what he was not saying…blah blah blah…
But in the end, nobody could come away from his talk without absorbing certain biases.
It’s really fascinating how they do that.
But I think the disclaimer/namby-pamby style seeps into the way that SGMers expect to interact with each other…and other Christians in general. There’s this push to be all self-deprecating and express one’s opinions in a (seemingly) “humble” way.
But oftentimes, in the push to be properly “humble” and “gracious,” I think direct truth-telling and honest sharing of opinions gets lost in the shuffle. That might just be why some folks find this site off-putting.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:01 am
Kris – you said, “I am NOT trying to “win over” anyone to think of SGM in a certain way.”
Okay, then why ARE you here?
I mean that seriously.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:05 am
Observer,
Hello. It’s been interesting and good to read your comments. I’m not done yet. I’m way up there in the 170s, but I’m making my way through. First, it’s good to hear from different people and their different perspectives. And I totally totally understand where you’re coming from…because for a time, I felt the way you do.
About 8 months or so after leaving SGM, really weird things started to happen with me. I actually have had to re-define my entire christianity. I finally feel like I understand and embrace the whole Gospel. I finally feel like I understand many of the things that nagged at my gut for the dozen + years I was at SGM churches. I finally feel like I’m allowed to say “No! I was saved when I was 10 and NOT when you, CLC pastor, told me I was!” I can finally say “I am NO LONGER classified as a sinner. Yes, I sin, but sin no longer rules me! Because Jesus’ death and resurrection took away my classification of ‘sinner’ I am free from every having to call myself that!!” I can finally understand, in some small way, just how much God loves me. Just how much Jesus loves me. I can trust the Holy Spirit working in my life. I don’t have to “earn” being qualified to hear the Holy Spirit.
It took a while. It took at least 8 months after leaving SGM for my eyes to be open enough to answer your question: “Do you think the PEOPLE in SGM are not worshipping Jesus?” with a “NO!” It sounds harsh. Yeah. Because it is. But the truth isn’t always nice. It’s not always pretty. And it sometimes cuts like a sword. But it is what it is. And I did NOT know Jesus…not like I know him now.
I am so grateful that God orchestrated things like he did. I am so grateful that I am finally free!
I’m glad you’re here. I hope you’ll be able to sit back and just take in whatever it is that God wants you to take in. It might not be much. You might close this browser tonight and never come back. I pray that you will listen to all the things that nag at you. Dig deep to understand why they nag.
Regarding motives…Because when I wrote a letter to CJ, I received a modified form letter in response, I am so leery of them. I have a hard time saying that their motives are pure. Well, actually, it’s not just the modified form letter response from CJ. That was kinda the final straw for me in holding out hope for pure motives. It’s so much more…maybe when it’s not late and my brain is working a little better, I’ll try to come up with a list. I know I’ve said many things about that here. But, to get them in one place will take a little while.
Sid
December 14th, 2009 at 12:07 am
Kris – I completely agree with you last post (except maybe your last sentence).
Will you stop censoring me now?
Can I post what I was going to earlier? (I still have it…)
December 14th, 2009 at 12:13 am
Observer, You said: “Are they worshipping a different “Jesus” in the sense of, say, a Mohammed or a Joseph Smith? Please clarify what you mean by this”
I have to chuckle. Over 5 years ago when we moved far away from CLC, we’d tell our new SGM “friends” that we came from MD and CLC. They would FAWN over us. They would ask IMMEDIATELY if we KNEW CJ. They’d want to hear things about him. People would ALWAYS make mention of the fact that we were at CLC.
A couple years later, when we moved again, the people in the new SGM church did the exact same thing!
Hmmm…who do we worship? The edification and adoration of CJ is pretty sick actually.
I don’t think they worship CJ over Jesus…but I do think there is a whole lot of man-worship in SGM as a whole. The government fosters it. The controlling practices feed it. The teaching girds it up and tells the sheep that this is “biblical.”
In my new church, I have not once seen a man elevated as I do in SGM.
Yes, you will hear me call SGM a cult. I wholly believe it is.
Sid
December 14th, 2009 at 12:21 am
Observer,
Here’s a statement that you can find in the “Read Before You Post” section:
This site is here to be a source of info about SGM’s dark side. Pure and simple. People are free to take that info and do with it what they will. They are free to dislike it, or disagree with it, or disapprove of my style.
I really don’t care. Because I’m not out to “win over” anyone.
I’m not campaigning to get people to ditch SGM or hate it or anything like that. But I do believe that if they read what people have experienced and if they start to piece together the “cult-like methodologies” that are used, they will come to share my opinion.
It’s fully possible to share info without having any desire attached to the outcome of what the person chooses to do with the info.
Does that make sense?
I don’t know how else to put it.
Why is this so difficult to understand?
December 14th, 2009 at 12:27 am
Sidney – Thanks for “chiming in”.
You said, “I actually have had to re-define my entire christianity. I finally feel like I understand and embrace the whole Gospel.” I am here now. Learning Romans 8 rather than Romans 7. The resurrection rather than the cross. Galatians rather than Leviticus. Yes, freedom is a good thing!!
In response to your comment about a “different Jesus” – Claireon shared a scripture earlier from 2 Cor 11:3-4 that was very interesting (truly, scripture helps y’all’s arguments.) I have been giving that a lot of thought and am considering what you are both saying.
In fact, the first sentence of my “censored” post (yes, I’m still sore about that) was in response to her post #181. I said,
Claireon – Thanks for the scripture. I can perhaps see a “different gospel” but am still a little confused about the “different Jesus.” I’ll give that some thought.
(So, belated thanks, Claireon. I really am still thinking about that one).
Wow, I’m agreeing with you guys.
Everyone’s so nice now.
Warm fuzzies!
December 14th, 2009 at 12:30 am
Oops –
Just read Kris’ last post.
No more warm fuzzies.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:31 am
After this site had been around for a few months, someone – and I still have no idea who – posted the link to the old blog on the Wikipedia article for Sovereign Grace Ministries.
The link remained there for awhile. But then some SGM defender removed it. And someone else put it back. And back and forth it went. Someone would put it up and someone would remove it, and then the discussion page lit up and people were warring over whether or not the blog stories could be used as a source for the article.
During this time, people were sort of after me to get involved in the whole thing – to argue for keeping the link in the Wiki article. But I didn’t think that was appropriate. I did not feel led to get involved, beyond posting one comment in the “talk” section.
My stance has always been that this site needs no advertisement. People can find it if they’re looking for the right key words. It comes up pretty high in the search results. I’m NOT out to solicit readers. I have always believed that people will find us when they’re already troubled and searching for something that will explain what (as Sidney said) is nagging at them.
If I had a desire to “win over” people to my point of view, I do believe I would be much more aggressively seeking readers. I’d go around and participate in popular blogs and link to this site. I’d do more with Google to put our link much farther up in the search results. I’d TRY.
But that’s not what I’ve been led to do here. Ever.
If you come around and argue with me, sure – I’ll argue back. I have my firm opinions, and I’ll share them. But I’m not out to get people to switch teams, so to speak.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:34 am
Observer,
Why did my comment #209 take away your warm fuzzies?
Why do I feel like this is so unnecessarily confrontational?
I’m really just trying to explain myself in response to the statements you’ve made.
December 14th, 2009 at 12:49 am
Kris -
Statements like “I don’t really care” and “Why is this so difficult to understand?” just don’t give me warm fuzzies, that’s all.
Although I will say the claws seem to have receded a little bit from your earlier posts (I could quote if you like) – so perhaps I’m still a little bit on the defensive and reeling from my “censorship”
December 14th, 2009 at 1:19 am
Observer, the “warm fuzzies” are always here.
They might just feel different to some at some times.
Have you read about “Roy” back a bunch of months ago? Roy LIED to this blog in order to prove a point against the people here. He asked for prayer…based on a LIE! He manipulated God’s kindness to tell us to pray in order to prove a point to preserve the “good name” of SGM. I asked Josh about that. He said “I wish I knew who it was because then I could do something about it.” OK…so ASK YOUR CONGREGATION! Nope! Nothing after that.
Have you read about “Noel” last year this time? Have you read the fallout from “Noel’s Story?” There are MANY MANY MANY “Noel Stories” around the SGM world.
There are several people who comment here who are in their 20s and their lives were all but destroyed. You might see their comments sometimes.
Have you seen comments where Kris talks about the hundreds if not thousands of emails she’s received from people regarding the bad things they endured in SGM?
Have you seen the crap that goes on under the Shank regime in the west? (I lived under it. It’s BAD. VERY VERY BAD.) You can mostly read about that at the sgmrefuge blog.
Have you read story after story of people who were so messed up in SGM that they won’t darken the doors of a church again? (if not for the gentle encouragement of a very very dear friend, I might count myself among those)
You have read some of them. So, take what you’ve read and multiply it by hundreds. Can you blame Kris for not accepting “correction” or “observation” (no pun on your name) by people who want her to change her blog? Kris didn’t ask us for our critique of the style here.
Just thinkin….
Sid
December 14th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Observer,
It’s funny, but to me, it felt like you arrived here with “claws,” digging in to share – in your very first comment – what you didn’t like and what we could do better. Later, you went on some more about how “something isn’t right,” and just how we needed to straighten up.
Why is it be OK for you to assert how we were wrong…but not OK for me to respond and explain why I thought YOU were wrong in your assessment? Especially since you brought your critique FIRST?
Why do you mention “claws” – but not seem to see how it feels like you arrived here with your own claws extended?
When I say things like “I don’t care” about making converts or “winning over” people to my point of view, that’s just…well, that’s just the truth. I don’t see anything in that that should take away your “warm fuzzies” – again, you have been offering up correction based on the premise that I’m working toward some goal with this site, and I was simply trying to explain to you that I am NOT working toward a specific goal, a specific outcome, because at the end of the day people have to do what they will with the info they read. It’s up to them.
Here’s an idea: let’s just drop this whole thing and start over. You can let go of the idea that it’s your role to point out the site’s flaws and offer up correction. And I will start over by saying,
Observer –
December 14th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Sid – Yes, I’ve read all the stories you listed above. As I said, I’ve been lurking here for a while, reading back. I agree “Roy” is pretty pitiful. I’m not sure if I would have picked up on it initially, but frankly his story about the drinking was not believeable. That is one area where I have found that SGM is NOT particularly legalistic. The only think I don’t know is the details of SS and the West. I’ve read some on Refuge but have not really been able to piece together what happened. Glad he’s gone and truly sorry for all those involved.
Kris – I think I owe you an apology for my “gathering of believers” comment #203. That was a subtle (or not so) dig. I believe God has a place for both official churches and “gatherings” of believers, on-line or otherwise. Truly. Please accept my apology.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Kris – Just read your last post. I had actually missed it because I started my last post and came back to it later without reading what was written in the interim.
Thanks for the welcome.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Kris – I thought I had posted another post in there but don’t see it – ??
I had responded to Sid that yes, I have read all those stories as I’ve been lurking here a while (although I don’t know the whole SS thing – just glad he’s gone). I think Roy was pitiful but not believeable because SGM, in my experience, has not been legalistic re drinking.
I had also asked for your forgiveness for my snarky “gathering of believers” comment #203. I truly believe God has a place for both organized churches and unofficial “gatherings” of believers. So, sorry.
Truce??
P.S. – But, I still think that, just as SGM should listen to the “opposition’s observations”, so should you.
December 14th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Observer,
Sadly, SS is not gone. He’s the district manager for all the west US SGM churches. (unless, of course, his title has changed again without anyone knowing) The wheels are literally falling off the church in Gilbert, AZ, where he is. He has “degifted” and “regifted” pastors whom he handpicked and lauded from pulpits. The church he hails from is unbelievably filled with legalism and control. Trust me, my husband and I experienced it firsthand from him as well as from one of his proteges, Glynn Makenzie. Pastors under SS are legalists/controllers. I know…strong words. Oh well. When you’ve had death breathed over your life by someone who put theirself in a position of “authority” over your life, you have to use strong words.
In fact, SS doesn’t even have a full grasp of the doctrines of SGM. He hardly teaches his own messages, yet normally teaches ones borrowed from CJ. He lies through his teeth. He publicly judged a senior pastor’s teenage son (I was there…he said it to me in the presence of several others)…saying “and who knows where _______ is in his walk.”
He is ultimately the catalyst that sent my husband and I packing. But, gratefully so! God has healed our marriage, my walk with the Lord, taught me how to raise my children with grace and love and I’m sure there are many more wonderful fruits of SS and his “collateral damage.”
Sigh….
Sidney
December 14th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Sid – I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through. I must have mis-read somewhere that SS was gone. I’m glad to hear that God used that situation to bring you to the place you are today. Otherwise, you would probably still be there. Romans 8:28.
Kris – You said, “it felt like you arrived here with “claws”.
I went back and read my first post and, seriously, do not see any “claws” there – or in any others. Please point them out to me if I missed them.
Or, perhaps you were referring to my “censored” post. I re-read that as well and honestly do not see any “claws” there either. You yourself referred to it as “sugar-coated.”
But, here’s an overnight turn-around that I’m sure will shock you:
I have decided that you did the RIGHT thing in not posting that. I think that was meant more for you personally than the other people on this blog. And, in the spirit of Matthew 18 (he, he
) I do not think that needed to be shared with “the church” or “the gathering of believers” or whatever we want to call the people on this blog (i.e., shouted from the rooftops).
Because I do, truly, believe you are doing a good thing here. (It just could be better.)
I would, however, like to send it to you again personally (perhaps with a few good ol’
SGM qualifiers and clarifications first, eh?) Would you be open to that?
observer
December 14th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Observer,
Can’t we just let it rest? I already read your comment before it didn’t get published. You don’t need to send it again. You’ve really made your critique quite clear.
I think I see “claws” in the very act of entering a conversation with the primary point of offering up suggestions about what should be changed and what isn’t being done right and what could be done better.
This truly is something very unique to SGM’s culture, in terms of how Christians interact with one another. It is NOT NORMAL to converse with others primarily through “observations” (pardon the pun) and corrective criticisms. Really. I know that you’re not in SGM any longer, but maybe it’s possible that this is a mindset that you haven’t recognized for what it is – the product of a very graceless culture.
But…
I was all ready to start fresh and just let this thing die. So…couldn’t we just do that? Please?
Why don’t you tell us a bit about yourself? Let us see a different side than we’ve seen.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Observer wrote: Because I do, truly, believe you are doing a good thing here. (It just could be better.)
Please, let’s stop “grading” the site — If you want it to be done differently, open a blog with your own rules. If you have insights to help people heal, please continue to read and contribute.
Thanks
December 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
It wouldn’t be so hard for him to find out who it is. Kris and I had it figured out way back in July.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Sigh. We have.
Ad Nauseum.
For 2 years now.
We (most of us) just don’t agree.
You’ve had your say, isn’t that enough?
December 14th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Kris – Here’s a little bit about me (from my first post):
I left SGM after 20+ years in 2 different SGM churches. Fortunately my leaving was not terribly difficult and did not cause the pain and turmoil that many of you have experienced. I did, however, walk through some situations during my time in SGM where I did not think things were handled “well” by those in leadership – and which caused much pain to me and to others I know and love. I will say that I do not believe there was ever any deliberate “abuse” in any of these situations – more that the men involved did not know how to handle the situations and did what they thought was right, but frankly, they messed up. Although I do not know their hearts, at times I believe they were more concerned with doing the right thing or having the right doctrine than they were with truly caring for the people involved (myself included) = loving DOCTRINE more than PEOPLE.
I had concerns over the years about some of SGM’s teaching – not necessarily the doctrine itself, but what I perceived to be the overemphasis of some doctrines over others (original sin and the cross vs. the resurrection and our new life in Christ), and some of the other spoken and unspoken teachings that seem to have gained more preeminence than I thought they should (i.e., the role of women, the extent of pastoral authority, homeschooling, the mistrust of mental health professionals, etc.) Many of these concerns have been raised by others in this website. I thank you all for sharing your own concerns, which have served to validate my own.
Since I have left, I will say that I have experienced an amazing sense of relief and freedom – ahhhh! . After getting involved in a new church and seeing things done differently, I believe I can see more clearly how some of SGM’s “weaknesses” stack up to other good, Bible-believing churches with different emphases and forms of government. Seeing a different model of a church and hearing a different focus of teaching has helped me to clarify my concerns about SGM and has made me grateful that I am no longer a part of that particular group of churches.
And a little bit more about me (from my post #180): I have seen/heard “snippets” of Greg S’s views on homeschooling, with which I disagree. I had my kids in public school while in SGM and still do.
Is there anything specific you’d like to know? I’m still relatively
and don’t know y’all, so I’m weighing how much I want to share.
Nickname – I am simply trying to “Discern, Decide, Seek God’s Truth”, as QE2 so aptly put it. I think everyone who comes here forms (or is forming) an opinion both of SGM and of this blog – as they/we should. Do you disagree?
And, thanks, but I have no desire to start my own blog. This is actually the first time I’ve spent much time in the blogosphere, and I’m still trying to decide if I belong here.
Peace to you all.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Ellie – Interesting that you & Kris figured out who “Roy” is.
Roy – If you’re reading here, I’m sorry I called you “pitiful.” That wasn’t very nice of me.
I withdraw my claws. I’ll pray for you.
Ellie – You wrote in response to my comment that y’all should listen to “observations”: (sorry, I don’t know how to do that copy thing)
Sigh. We have.
Ad Nauseum.
For 2 years now.
We (most of us) just don’t agree.
You’ve had your say, isn’t that enough?
I just can’t get past the fact
that y’all are so quick to point out others’ faults but aren’t willing to admit any of your own (that and I keep getting shown the door). I guess you could say it’s a stumbling block for me to trust the people here – which I really want to do.
December 14th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Observer,
I think your tone overall is fine. I just think the issue comes in with the “abnormal” tendency that we SGM’ers or recently-ex-sgmers have to still nitpick everyone else’s sins. We have this radar constantly going looking for what is sin and what is not.
In the “normal” world, I just find it so much more palatable to be someone’s friend, to hang with them (NOT “fellowship” as defined by SGM) for awhile, get to know them and let stuff roll off my back. When I’m able to do that, I’m so much more able to relax and enjoy someone..whether they sin some or not. Jesus has their sin covered. I don’t have to worry so much about it.
Now, in time, if you were here on this blog and got to “know” some of the folks and somehow it happened that you developed a blog-friendship with Kris and Guy. Then, maybe, you might have the opportunity to say “do you think….”
I understand that we can think this venue is so important to have perfectly sin-free and non-offensive all the time. But really, I don’t think so. Nobody is a captive audience. People can read or not. If they are offended by the tone. Oh well. They can stop reading.
But, to just come on over, read for a few months, never post comments and suddenly agree, but disagree…it’s just so SGM, Observer.
I think that’s the problem. I think that’s the issue Kris is having. Just that it’s really not “normal” to do that.
If you go to a new church (I think you said you do, but can’t remember), are you already pointing out immodest dress, unruly children, non-submissive wives? No. You’re probably hanging out for a while, getting to know people and going from there.
I think…and i could be wrong…that the mentality to be so concerned with other people’s sin (or our own for that matter) is part of the heart of why we’re so bound up in legalism when we’re in SGM. I mean really…now I realize that ever sin I ever committed, ever will commit or ever will even think of committing is already covered by Jesus’ blood. Yes, I have to ask forgiveness and I have to repent all the time. BUT, does my focus have to be addressing every single sin I see? Nope. Jesus already did that…when he died on that cross AND AND AND rose from the dead. The freedom!!!
December 14th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Observer,
Look, I don’t know what else to tell you. What sort of response, precisely, are you looking for? If you’re waiting for me to put on the whole SGM-phony act of, “Thank you for your observation…I’ll prayerfully consider it,” you’re gonna be sorely disappointed. Homey don’t play that.
If that makes you not want to trust me, or others here, that’s OK.
Nobody’s “shown you the door,” by the way. But it’s like you want to set the rules for a conversation that’s been going on long before you even left your SGM church. It feels like you want to set the terms for what people say and how they say it. I keep suggesting that you not read or participate here because it just seems logical to me that that is what a person DOES when they find something they don’t like about something that is OPTIONAL – something they are CHOOSING to participate in.
People here can attest to the fact that I am pigheaded and stubborn about certain things, especially when it’s this kinda garbage. For better or worse, this is my blog. I’ve been doing this for a LONG time, and I’m not going to change things. If you don’t like it, coolio. That’s not the door – them’s just the ground rules.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Wowzers. My eyes are bleeding from all of the backreading. (ok not actually bleeding that was an exageration ;))
Observer – I don’t know if I was the girl you said had shared her story with notes about her parents in a bad light etc etc. If I was I’d love to talk with you a little more personally… whether I was or not *I* thought a looong time before posting about my life and before doing it in such an open manner. I decided to be “open” because I wanted people who may have lived in the same church/time period as me to find hope, to have someone who could say “hey i was there too” BTW, I have already had three people contact me from my blog post – in good ways.
i did NOT do it to hurt my parents AT ALL!! I love them a lot. Believe it has been years of battling how much to share and who to share with. It’s my story too, and I don’t feel I have to hide the sins of the past in order to protect my parents.Those who know and love them STILL know and love them even knowing the past. No one is judging their pasts sins and mistakes – they are part of the body of Christ and are forgiven.
That might not make sense – I was really hurt by the comments, and they may not have even been directed at me.
December 14th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
FYI, the Sheriff is here…
December 14th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
BTW Observer… I don’t think people are saying “we don’t want you here” as much as “if you don’t want to be here please don’t feel pressured to stay.”
I mean seriously – I am mostly an SGM advocate, I see harshness at times and things I wouldnt agree with, but… nobody forces anyone else to read. You found this blog on your own, you read this blog on your own, and you chose to post what you did. Nobody asked for the critque of the blog. I don’t really know of any online forum (or IRL forum) where it’s ok to come in and tell people all of the things they are doing wrong and then expect to be applauded. If people on here feel it’s wrong – they are allowed to leave. Those who stay are being benefitted by it (or at least feel they are)…
anyways im going now lol
December 14th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
SGMChick… {{{hugs}}}
Observer…re what SGMChick said…I don’t know if it’s even “don’t feel pressured to stay” (sorry, SGMChick…you’re right, but I think it could be communicated in another way…)…I would like to say to you, Observer:
Please stay. You probably have a great amount of insight and input. You probably will be going down a “healing journey” as time goes on. Please stay.
Just please stay on the terms of the blog owner and her husband: Don’t try to change it.
Just come in, sit down, relax and quit thinking about what you don’t like. Pray for change if you think something needs to change. Pray for the people (myself included) who are still bitter and struggling with many things. Pray that their “tone” will change as they find heeling in the Great Physician of their heart. But don’t think it’s OK for you to try and change it. You really can’t do that. That’s not good blog form.
If you don’t feel like you can do that or want to do that, then you probably shouldn’t hang here. Cuz the others are right.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
SGMCHick I’m truly sorry if I hurt you by the comments. That was DEFINITELY not my intention. I did think seriously about tracking down your number and calling you, but don’t really know you well so decided not to. I actually thought saying something here anonymously might be more helpful to you than receiving a “corrective” call from a near stranger. Perhaps I should have handled it differently. I am more of your parents’ generation, am a flawed parent myself, and could easily see their perspective that they might have been hurt by your post if they knew about it – especially because it was relatively easy to tell who you are. Do your parents know what was said about them, and are they okay with what you said? If so, then I have no problem with what your post. I actually think the content of your post was very touching and helpful, and your heart was in the right place -it’s just that your parents could have been (or could still be) hurt by it.
That was my point – that I think we can inadvertently hurt people with what we post here. Because there are real PEOPLE behind these “names” of ours.
Kris – You asked if I’m looking for the SGM-phony act of, “Thank you for your observation…I’ll prayerfully consider it.” No, I’m not looking for the phony act. I’m looking for the real thing. (I could quote some scriptures but I’m sure you know them.)
I am prayerfully considering everything I read on this blog – currently I am “chewing” on Sid’s post about how we are “trained” in SGM to look at other people’s sin. (Thanks for the post, Sid.)
My first post (#153) was written mostly out of a concern for SGMChick’s parents, the “mm” mentioned by you in a prevous post, Sid, and the many friends and family I have in SGM who have now been labeled as “cult members” – because I know these people and believe they might be personally hurt by the comments made about them here. Those two posts specifically “hit home” because I actually KNOW the specific people mentioned and felt like, in a sense, I needed to defend THEM. I do not believe I was simply “sin-sniffing”. God knows my heart on this one.
‘Nuff said.
Anyone wanna take this in a different direction? I’m feeling a little squirmy in the “spotlight” and would like to hear some other voices. Anyone??
December 14th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Guy-
You just show up out of nowhere…good to see you
December 14th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
hmmm…..seems my typing has transformed into a Japanese motorcycle or something…now my spelling and my typing are suspect …lol.
Ok…back to your regularly scheduled blog…
December 14th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Hey, Observer -
You asked,
And I say, um, YEAH, I’ve been begging you to just let it go.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
That’s the way I roll MM….but truth be told…I’m always here, protecting and serving
December 14th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
ummmm…it wasn’t that hard if you had been reading here, at the Refuge, and at John Immel’s site. “Roy Boy” had a unique way of saying things and left certain clues. Especially once he was bragging about how he “pulled one over” on us. Back then, I had more time to spend on the blogs so I was able to pick up on this. For some reason, I can sometimes “hear” how people sound on the internet. And I like to “google”. Don’t have so much time right now… it’s interesting though how much people tell about themselves without ever even realizing it. ;)
December 14th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Observer, thanks.
No… they don’t know. And, you’re right… it probably would hurt them. I am having a rough time with that one to be honest. For YEARS I have wanted to write a book – I’ve have professors in college and MANY friends suggest I write a book, but… I don’t want to hurt my family and I don’t really know how to do that without hurting them. It’s really hard. Everything I said is completely true, and really I minimized some of it, but yes they would be hurt… and I don’t know how to get past that. It’s my story too…
BTW, if you’d like to contact me I’d love to talk to you (or anyone
)on a more personal level… foreverhuggedATgmailDOTcom
December 14th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
observer,
I agree with Sidney’s #228 comment.
You were in SGM for 20+ years. That’s a LONG time. Old habits ARE hard to break. Heck, if you’re like most, you aren’t even aware of how you’re coming across – socially whacked. (Just teasing, don’t be offended.)
I hope you’ll stick around and read a while. But know that you’re definitely not going to win any friends “offering corrections” and “suggestions” every time you post.
That’s what I meant by my “arrogance and self-righteousness” remark. Typically it takes a lot for a Christian to muster up the courage to confront a brother or sister-in-Christ, even when it’s for their own good. And rightly so. God knew what a mess He would have if His children felt they could go around bringing observations and offering corrections without ever batting an eye. It’s simply “not normal” for folks to make a habit of doing such, and when they do, it’s viewed as arrogant and self-righteous.
It was “okay” in SGM, but it’s not okay outside of the SGM. It’s the social consequences you’ll suffer conversing with folks outside of SGM.
Now, why don’t we all sit down and have a cup of coffee and find something else to talk about. Kris, I wish we could all really fellowship in your living room because I hear you’re quite the cook and I’m sure we could find some yummy things in your kitchen.
December 14th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Kindred,
I wish y’all could come over RIGHT NOW – I have a gigantic gingerbread boy and a rum cake, all freshly made today. Sadly, though, the gingerbread boy is already an amputee…the kiddos just couldn’t resist…
December 14th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Y U M M Y . . .
I can almost smell it through the blogosphere.
Can’t say that I blame the kiddos. Just break the handle off of an old wooden spoon and give ginger boy a wooden leg.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Observer,
You said: “My first post (#153) was written mostly out of a concern for SGMCHick’s parents, the “mm” mentioned by you in a prevous post, Sid, and the many friends and family I have in SGM who have now been labeled as “cult members” – because I know these people and believe they might be personally hurt by the comments made about them here. Those two posts specifically “hit home” because I actually KNOW the specific people mentioned and felt like, in a sense, I needed to defend THEM. I do not believe I was simply “sin-sniffing”. God knows my heart on this one.”
Was that to me? I’m confused.
Normally people who defend SGM here (even a little), don’t understand that we were once exactly who we are talking about. Most of the people who were hurt worst are the ones who lost their identity in SGM. So…when you talk about your family and friends who are “cult members”…count me in! Only I can say I “was” a cult member. And most of my family is still in SGM and I do still have a few friends, thank God. I love them. I don’t fault them. My entire family knows how I feel. Most of us have very open conversations about it. I don’t ask them to leave. I just feel like them knowing some of what they’re into and how unhealthy it is, I think, is important.
And most of them see it.
-Sid
December 14th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
SGMChick,
How very loving and compassionate to be concerned for your parents.
If God wants you to share your experience for the benefit of others, He will prepare a way for you to do so with your love and concern for them in mind.
Remember, too, that He loves your parents even moreso than you do. I’ll be praying for you.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I took a homemade Texas cake with pecans in the icing into school today. My own personal kids said “ewww” to the pecans. I thought about taking it into the English department office, but I made so many more people happy by sharing it with my classes instead. I’m sure I’ll need those brownie points someday . . .
December 14th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Here’s something I’ve been thinking about…and although this train of thought was somewhat inspired by “Observer,” it isn’t really directed toward her at all.
This is just generally speaking…
So, now that that disclaimer is out of the way…
I’ve been thinking about SGM’s “culture of confrontation,” and the pickiness and “eagle eye” toward sins and shortcomings that necessarily must go along with it. I think SGMers very quickly absorb the mindset that as long as one remains hyper-aware of one’s own wretched sinfulness, it then becomes completely acceptable – desirable, even – to confront others about their shortcomings.
In an odd way, “up” is “down” in SGMville, as what would come across as self-righteous arrogance in “normal” Christianity is seen as a badge of humility in SGM.
Those of you on the outside of SGM these days – do you find your non-SGM Christian friends “bringing you observations” in the way that it happens in SGM? Do you feel comfortable “bringing observations” in your new non-SGM church?
In my lifetime of Christianity, which (aside from a few years’ sojourn through a hyper-Charismatic church and then SGM) encompasses more than 3 decades in what I’d call “normal” churches, I’d NEVER run into the type of confrontation that goes on in SGM. Our hyper-Charismatic church had plenty of problems, but eagerness to talk with others about their sins and failures was not one of them. In our post-SGM church, we haven’t seen anything like this, either.
My parents each have an additional couple of decades of church experience, and they too have never known a church atmosphere where it was considered completely socially acceptable to “speak into someone’s life” in a way that would hone in on what the person is doing wrong. They both agree that this sort of interaction is reserved mainly for one’s closest friends.
Yet in SGMville, it’s considered mandatory to respond in a “humble” way to correction, no matter how off-base or incorrect one thinks the correction is.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Ladies, LADIES…
This is torture! I’ve never had a desire to hunt people down on the blog until tonight!
Sounds DELICIOUS, Acme!
December 14th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
You are not out of the cult until it is more important to you to see the victims healed of hurt, than to see the abusers shielded from the possibility of hurt feelings. That includes you who are a victim, and that includes abusers who happen to be parents, not just church leaders.
IF they have TRULY repented with great contrition and remorse, and apologized, and sought to make restitution, you won’t even need to talk about it.
There is a place to not allow a root of bitterness to grow, a place to keep silent and entrust yourself to God who will bring justice oneday. There is also a place to do anything you can to help comfort and protect others from abuse. It may be hard to tell what is motivating a person who does speak up, and getting good counsel is often necessary for them. It is easy to be unforgiving.
But let me say it again……if you are worried about not hurting the feelings of an abuser, you are still under their control. And if somebody is worried more about the feelings of an abusive parent than they are about the damaged child, they are still in the cult.
December 14th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
5yearsinPDI,
I agree! As a matter of fact, I just did a “copy and paste” of your comment to share with a struggling young friend.
I need to go back and reread SGMChick’s story. I may have parts of it confused with another.
It certainly sounds as though God wants her to share her story. And if her parents are still “abusing,” He can heal them, as well.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Kris said,
“I’ve been thinking about SGM’s “culture of confrontation,” and the pickiness and “eagle eye” toward sins and shortcomings that necessarily must go along with it. I think SGMers very quickly absorb the mindset that as long as one remains hyper-aware of one’s own wretched sinfulness, it then becomes completely acceptable – desirable, even – to confront others about their shortcomings.”
Kris,
This is actually the stuff that drives me the CRAZIEST about SGM. And it’s usually folks’ first indicator that something’s not quite right with an SGMer. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been present among a group of non-SGMers where this topic comes up at the mention of a SGMer.
Add to it the fact that many feel their way of doing things is the “biblical” way and you have an individual that “stands out in a crowd,” in a BAD way!
December 14th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Hey guys!
I am going to take a break from here… I am pretty sure I will come back some time in the future, but not soon. Hubby and I feel like it would be good to step back and such. I’ve asked Kris to edit/rename my posts, and I am sooo grateful she is willing to do that for me!
If anyone wants to contact me please feel free to email me foreverhugged@gmail.com
December 14th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Scene: Opening prayer time at an SGM marriage conference. Husband and wife with strong, close, loving marriage are approached by a casual acquaintance, a member of the “prophetic team”, a woman who desires to share a “word” from the Lord. A few bystanders gather around and lay hands on husband and wife.
The woman speaks — voice quavers — eyes fill with tears. “The Lord gave me a picture of your marriage, that it has been dry for many years, like a tree beside a stream, but the roots have not gone down deep enough…..blah, blah, blah…. and the Lord desires that you blah, blah, blah….” Basically, an observation/ correction cloaked in a “word from the Lord.”
Husband and wife stood there politely and listened — couldn’t really move since they were attached to several hands-on prayers — and it went on forever. Prophesier was in tears at the end, emotionally undone. Husband and wife were mystified and on the verge of laughter or anger, but they actually thanked the crazy woman.
Now, had they been more well-schooled in the “observation and correction” business, they might have come right back to her and said, “We’d like to bring an observation that you are freakin’ nuts, and exactly who do you think you are speaking forth such hogwash without even asking our permission and attributing it to God, and furthermore, how about worrying about your own marriage and getting your nose out of ours!”
It’s enough to make you think that the cessationists just might be onto something…
And no, I have NEVER seen anything like that in a non-SGM setting.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Nick – I just shot diet coke out of my nose you made me laugh so hard….
December 15th, 2009 at 12:19 am
Guy — well, after lo, these many years, picturing the Diet Coke spew makes the whole crazy experience worthwhile!
December 15th, 2009 at 6:07 am
Well, Guy, it was coffee that spewed through my nose. Certainly not as stinging as a diet coke.
Nick, that was hilarious! ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS!
And what makes it so funny is the fact that it’s so true (I could totally picture the scene, Nick) and so many of us have experienced it.
Of course, it’s very sad, too. Sad that the people bringing the “word from the Lord” and “correction/observation” really believe they’re doing what God would have them to do and that there are those who hear it and believe it. Sad, sad, sad.
(And I wouldn’t be categorized as a cessationist. I believe God still brings us “a word.”)
December 15th, 2009 at 6:59 am
re #240 –
Thanks!
I appreciate your genuine humility and care for your parents.
I’ve got a busy day but will email you later.
P.S. – Re the book: Have you ever considered a pen name??
December 15th, 2009 at 8:12 am
What’s kinda scary about the scene that Nickname described is that if the recipients of such a “word from the Lord” weren’t very mature or secure in their marriage, that experience could easily sow doubts and actually CREATE the problems that the woman thought “the Lord” was addressing.
It’s insidious. The husband and wife in an otherwise great marriage might find themselves questioning things. “Hmm. What if it WAS the Lord speaking? He knows better than we do…and, after all, we DID have that fight the other day…”
Questioning and doubting oneself are valued in SGM as signs of “genuine humility.” Sometimes, they can be that. But more often, such second-guessing is just a symptom of not being very secure in one’s identity.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:44 am
“that experience could easily sow doubts and actually CREATE the problems that the woman thought “the Lord” was addressing.”
And How!!!
I would add that in this sort of creation, there is a lot of illusion and fear, that can create a rift as the spouses take observations of each other to their respective accountibility groups, begin to vent, sharing their new found concerns that were recently cultivated.
Oh Well.
Nothing like beating each other up with the observations of others.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am
I found nickname’s scenario all too likely–and did not laugh at all.
I think it’s interesting that 30years for instance and others chastised folks for NOT using their real names, and Observer chastised SGMchick for using her real name.
SGMchick, I see you’ve adopted a handle now–and that’s fine. I think your decision to write a book and to use your own name or a nom de plume is completely that–your own decision.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:53 am
What I love is how the only “truly humble” response to correction is to agree with whatever the person bringing the observation says. There’s no room to say that the person is wrong in his assessment/observation.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Acme {{hugs, friend}}, you said: “I think it’s interesting that 30years for instance and others chastised folks for NOT using their real names, and Observer chastised SGMchick for using her real name.”
That’s very interesting. We all know that IF we’d use our real names, SGM would do real things to fix the abuses! Without real names, there’s nothing they can do to help anyone! We all know that.
I think your observation is very good.
-Sid
December 15th, 2009 at 11:36 am
I was vacuuming just now (that Titus 2 thing), and something occurred to me. (I often have flashes of realization while vacuuming…go figure.)
About the whole “bringing an observation” thing -
I know that WWJD (“What Would Jesus Do?”) was mocked and disparaged in SGMville when it was all the vogue some years back. But every once in awhile, it can be interesting to see what Jesus actually did in response to certain things.
Now, we all know that Jesus was the perfect and sinless Son of God, so we obviously can’t always operate like He did. But it occurred to me just now that the Pharisees were ALWAYS “bringing observations” to Jesus. And some of their stuff I’m sure seemed legit to them, being scholars of the law and all. I mean, they were the experts. They knew precisely how to wash their hands and how everything should look, and what a holy life was like. I’m sure they truly believed, with all their hearts, that they had legitimate beefs with Jesus and His disciples (who, incidentally, were NOT sinless…and yet Jesus frequently came to their defense anyway).
(You can probably guess where I’m going with this.)
I think if we look at Jesus, we can see that sometimes – at least, when we know we’re not wrong – it’s got to be OK to reply in defense to an “observation.” True humility does not always require the canned SGM response of, “Thank you for that observation – I will prayerfully consider it.”
December 15th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Great minds… lol
I’ve been thinking along the same lines while doing my scripture reading the last couple of days.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
I haven’t read all 236 comments to see if this has been addressed yet, but the common misconception behind these requests to speak to leadership privately is a misinterpretation of Matt 18. In I Timothy, Paul says that to bring a charge against an elder you need 2 or 3 witnesses – and that is what this blog is. So, you are being perfectly Scriptural. I unpack this idea in my blog here: http://teenmaniahonoracademy.blogspot.com/2009/11/myth-of-matthew-18-confrontation.html
December 16th, 2009 at 7:45 am
Hey, Recovering Alumni…
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
Interesting blog post!
December 16th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Hi, all. I don’t know if anyone is still on this thread, but I had a thought I wanted to share and see what you all think.
Claireon & Sid (I think it was) were saying SGM worships a “different Jesus” and I was trying to wrap my head around that.
I think maybe they’re worshipping the CRUCIFIED Christ rather than the RISEN Christ. It’s the same body but a different Spirit (or something like that.)
It’s kind of like the concept of the “old self” (which has been crucified with Christ)vs. the “new self” (which has been raised to life).
They are trying to keep crucifying Him again and again – and trying to “mortify” our sin over and over again – when that’s already been DONE!
There are no more nail marks in His hands!
Does that make any sense to anyone but me?
December 16th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I just re-read that post and it sounded rather harsh. I just mean that the focus on the cross, the cross, the cross over and over is only half of the gospel. That’s not good news in and of itself. The good news is that God raised Him from the dead!
December 16th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Observer,
I know that while we were at our SGM church (a relatively brief time, less than a year), I always had the nagging sense that something about the teachings wasn’t quite right. I couldn’t figure out what it was, though, till I was interacting with folks here, and somehow we got to talking about Romans 6-7. I believe that is where the verse, “Oh, wretched man that I am…” is (at the end of Romans 7, too lazy to go look it up right this moment).
As we were having that discussion, it occurred to me that at least at our SGM church, the overall mentality had remained mired in Romans 6-7, and had never moved on to Romans 8 (“Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through Christ Jesus…”).
Initially, our SGM church’s focus on our sin and our sinfulness was refreshing, actually. I think that some of Evangelical Christianity can be unbalanced in the other direction, rarely if ever dealing with the topic of sin. But after awhile, if our focus remains on our sin, and if Jesus remains on the cross, it can feel like we get stuck in a cycle of continual enslavement to sin – as the Apostle Paul alluded to in Romans 6-7.
If we focus instead on the risen Lord, and the good works which He has already ordained for us to do, according to Ephesians 2:10, then we break out of that cycle of sin and despair. We lose the chains.
It seems to me that this is the biggest danger of remaining so obsessed with Jesus-on-the-cross, rather than obsessing over the full picture of Jesus-as-having-been-on-the-cross-but-is-now-risen.
December 16th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Kris – I totally agree. I read through Romans 8 the other night, and our pastor recently did a series on Galatians. Such freedom here!! Sad to say, but in all my years at SGM I don’t remember ever hearing a teaching about either of those passages/books. And, I agree, the doctrine of sin is important. I believe that’s probably what God was telling them to preach at that time. It just seems like we shouldn’t dwell there, but move on.
I’ve also been thinking about the verse that talks about the Holy Spirit being like a wind that we can’t see and we never know what direction it’s going to take (sorry, I can’t quote exactly and couldn’t tell you off had where it is, but I’m hoping you know the passage) I think that means that at any point the Holy Spirit could lead us in a different direction doctrinally, and we need to be ready to move with the Spirit’s leading. Otherwise we’re beginning with the Spirit and trying to finish in the flesh. We need to constantly be listening to what God is saying to us and be ready to move with that, even if it’s a totally new (or opposite) direction. I think this goes for everything in life – learning to be “led” by the Spirit. Still trying to work that one out in my life…
December 16th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Observer — #267 — This is something I’ve often remarked on, something many of us have discovered. When we first went to our SGM church, after coming out of a reformed church, we were so glad to REJOICE in the risen Lord for a change. When SGM began preaching about the cross, I was glad they had become what seemed to me more theologically educated in their thinking. But, in the same way that people often get stuck in one mode of grief, SGM seemed to get stuck on one topic within the spectrum of birth, death, & resurrection. The complete focus on sin is comparable to a complete focus on one person of the Trinity to the exclusion of the others. But if you ask me, it’s the WHOLE gospel — not just one part — that makes us WHOLE.
December 16th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Observer,
You are free! You are free to worship the RISEN Christ! You don’t have to sing those “I’m unworthy, I’m a wretched sinner, I need you to save me over and over again” songs ever again! Because he ALREADY did it! You got that right!
Now, I have to add to it. SGM worships these gods also:
CJ
homeschool
courting
modesty
women don’t work
proper way to raise kids
proper way to spank kids
“stop dating the church”
watch your media
watch your sports
gotta do fellowship this way
gotta do marriage that way
add all that crap to the Gospel of salvation and you have Gospel PLUS a whole bunch of works. Works Works Works.
I can’t decide if SGM is just a spin-off from catholocism or if it’s just a cult in and of itself.
Again, sorry to be harsh. Sorry if you don’t think my tone is appropriate. It’s not going to change.
-Sid
December 16th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Give me a few minutes and I’ll come up with some more:
let’s all live in the same neighborhood
let’s all go to the same doctors…who just so happen to go to our church
public school: BIG NO NO!!!!
let’s all talk the same
and wear our hair the same
and wear the same sorts of clothes
December 16th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Interesting list, Sid.
I will say that one area where I sort of agree with them is the whole dating/ courtship thing. Their strong stance on this is actually something that attracted me to SGM, after having gone to a Christian college and seeing others fall into sin in this area (This was actually even before Josh Harris was around.) The problem is that the focus became on “dating” or “courtship” rather than the more biblical term “purity” – and it became a methodology instead of allowing for spirit-led decision on the part of individuals. And, it also let to some serious “weirdness”. I had the pastor of my current church greet me the other day and briefly put a hand on my shoulder in a nice, friendly way. I commented to my husband how refreshingly normal that was! There were many men in SGM who really wouldn’t even have a conversation with me as a married woman. Something not quite right there.
My take on it, anyway.
December 16th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Observer, here’s how I think this “becomes” Jesus….in SGM, you’re taught how to act and how to live and how to work and where to live and blah blah blah…and that’s your focus all the time. You’re watching your sports and watching your media and watching your daughter’s modesty…the list goes on. When you’re doing all these things all the time, it kinda consumes you, doesn’t it? I find that, while I was in SGM, I was so wound up in a manic state all the time. Worrying about how my house looked in case someone stopped by. Worrying about if I was watching too much tv. Or worrying about if that show glorified God. Or, if I wanted to miss care group, what would happen…..or what I wore, how I entertained, how I was serving etc. Doesn’t it just make your head spin?
CJ always did those teachings about “spinning plates.” That was a great ploy. Mind games! TOTAL mind games. (sorry…I am going to call it like I see it.) You TELL people not to spin plates, but then every teaching has you spinning plates. Every thing that is exemplified for you has you spinning plates. Every SGM-written book has you spinning plates… You can read a blog for every aspect of life and trying to live out each one to the best SGM laid-out way…well, you’re gonna spin plates.
I’m getting manic just thinking about it.
Normal church doesn’t do this. Normal christianity doesn’t act this way. This is all extra stuff that SGM has added in to make it’s perfect little utopia. But, in the end, you just end up worshiping all the works.
December 16th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Sid – You mention the same, the same, the same…
I think God delights in variety! He has made each of us differently. We have uniques gifts, talents and abilities. Some are called to home school, some to public school. Some to work, some to stay home. Some to be married, some to stay single. etc., etc. And, at different times in our lives we may be called to different things. (Cue music, “To everything turn, turn, turn”)
It squelches our God-given individuality when we are all expected to fit a particular mold. And, I think it limits the kindgom of God because then we are only relating to other people like us and we make ourselves unrelateable to the average old Joe Blo on the street.
And you forgot reading the same books. I think we need a balanced Christian reading diet (primarily, of course, the word of God). No one “branch” of Christianity will have a corner on the truth – and I think God is intentional about that. We need to be more open to the fact that God can speak through anything or anyone (sometimes even unbelievers – shock!) We should never be afraid or hesitant to read anything unless overtly sinful (and in that case hopefully God will show us). We then need to use our own discernment to determine what “nuggets” we take from where.
And, we may even change what and how we believe as time goes on. And, that’s okay!
Sorry, I’m getting long-winded again. As I said, brevity is not my specialty…
Good point, Sid!
December 16th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Or the body analogy: the eye, the hand, the feet, etc. We can’t and shouldn’t be all the same – or else the body (the church as a whole) will not work the way it’s supposed to.
I’m with you, sister!
December 16th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Recovering Alumni-
Welcome-interesting site you have about Teen Mania….correct me if I’m wrong-but didn’t someone mention that Ron Luce had been a part of SGM/PDI back in the early days?
December 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Hi, all.
On another note – Being straightforward here – I’ve been thinking about what you all said about me coming in here and “offering up correction” right away. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing because it seemed from reading your posts that you were very quick to criticize SGM for not receiving input, but also very quick to “turn away” those who didn’t agree with you. Frankly, it seemed very hypocritical.
I did not want to apologize because I do not believe in “pat” apologies – like when we make our kids say, “I forgive you” to their siblings but they don’t really mean it from their hearts – and I did not feel convicted by God that I had done anything wrong. So, I’ve been thinking about whether or not I was truly in the wrong…
While I still don’t think anything in my initial post was “wrong” (maybe God will convict me later, I don’t know), I do see your point about hanging out here and getting to know you all first before making any “observations.” I was just trying to “test the waters” and see if I wanted to “swim in this pond.” It’s a little weird not knowing you to try to decide if I want to be spending time here or not.
But, you’re right. I should not have been so quick to correct. I was guilty of the same hypocrisy I was charging you with.
So, please forgive me.
Observer
P.S. Should I change my name? I’m thinking of “thinking”…
December 16th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
December 16th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Observer,
Thanks on all fronts. I appreciate the conversation. And the understanding.
I’ve been thinking of changing my name too! Probably just to Sid…since I’ve been around awhile and I don’t normally go by my full name anyway.
-Sid
December 17th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Hi, all. Observer here with a new name. I decided on “listener” (Maybe I could change my name every week or so and be the “multiple personality” poster!
)
I’ve been thinking… I was arrogant and self-righteous. Please forgive me.
For whatever reason I think I’m supposed to be here, so I’m going to just hang out and “listen in” for a while.
Blessings to all,
Listener
December 17th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Sid,
You mentioned CJ’s famous “Spinning Plates” teaching…and how it seemed to contradict so much else that was taught in SGM at the same time…
I think you’ve touched on what I would consider one of SGM’s most dangerous issues, something that is insidious because it’s REALLY REALLY HARD to pick up on. And that is that even as half of what comes out of SGM pastors’ mouths is “grace-grace-grace” and “you don’t have to try so hard” (like in CJ’s “Plates” message), the majority of what is taught is still all about what we must DO to “attract more of God’s grace” (a loose quote from CJ’s “Humility” book).
In other words, the pastor’s WORDS will be saying something that on the surface sounds so good and correct and grace-filled…but if you combine the message with every other message, it nonetheless is still all about WORK.
This is actually a documented characteristic of dysfunctional (some would say “cultic”) ministries. Remember the post from a couple of weeks ago entitled Red Flags? (http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=1302) Well, here is a quote from that post – pay special attention to the part in bold:
So here’s how it happens in SGM: at least half the time – often more – what is talked about from the pulpit ultimately focuses on what people must DO. Frequently, though, it will be couched in terms that SEEM to be about “grace.”
For instance, because Claireon brought it up the other day, I dug up the transcript I’d done of Greg Somerville’s teaching on how to choose a method of schooling for one’s children. I’ve never published that transcript – I’ve grown weary of the topic of homeschooling and the inevitable heated debates that follow when the subject comes up. But it’s utterly fascinating to see how Mr. Somerville talks about the different kinds of educational options. On the surface, at least – if someone were just casually listening, and not wearing their “SGM Discernment Ears” – it SOUNDS like he is being open-minded and not endorsing a particular approach. But the way he says certain things makes it clear that he views certain choices as being much “wiser” than other choices.
He made a statement to the effect of, “Perhaps God will give you the grace to homeschool…”
Now, on the surface of that sentence, he is saying nothing particularly provocative. But if you take a moment to actually THINK about the impact of his words, it becomes a whole different story. First of all, Mr. Somerville NEVER uses a similar kind of statement about the other schooling options (which he defines as Christian school, public school, and private secular school). He NEVER says, “Perhaps God will give you the grace to put your children in public school.” Instead, he reserves the “give you the grace” aspect for homeschooling only.
But what in the world does that phrase MEAN, anyway? “God will ‘give you the grace‘ for XYZ lifestyle option”?????
Clearly, if God “gives one the grace” to do something, then that thing is something that God regards as desirable – correct? But, more importantly for our discussion here, if you make a particular lifestyle choice, and are working hard at that lifestyle choice (who among us would deny that homeschooling – when done properly – is hard work?), it’s very difficult to discern where your hard work stops and where God’s grace begins.
So inevitably, when the word “grace” is associated with a particular approach or strategy for the Christian life, two things happen. First of all, that approach is automatically elevated in listeners’ minds, because (as I already pointed out) if God has to give someone extra grace to do a particular thing, then that thing must be more desirable to Him. But secondly, “grace” becomes all enmeshed in a certain specific set of ACTIONS, a specific set of WORKS.
For instance, if I get up in the morning and run 3 miles on an almost-daily basis (which, by the way, I actually do…contrary to the folks who think I spend all my time blogging in my pajamas
), there is an aspect of that that, yes, IS about “God’s grace.” God has granted me enough health to do that. God has worked in me to help me get over some of my natural laziness. God has developed a measure of self-discipline in me.
BUT…there’s a big aspect of exercising that is really not about anything particularly miraculous. There’s a huge part of it that is simply, as the old Nike ads used to say, about “just doing it.” Although I recognize – theoretically – God’s grace as an element of my workouts, I simply cannot think too much about that part of it, because if I do, I probably will stop forcing myself to get on the treadmill and JUST RUN.
Moreover – and this is the sticky part – if I attach a spiritual significance (“more of God’s blessing” or “more of God’s grace”) to a particular set of behaviors, then I can easily start to feel spiritually superior to the person who does not engage in those behaviors. Moreover, what happens when I fall off the wagon and quit my good habits for awhile? Did I somehow “lose grace” in that?
Think of the person who tried homeschooling but didn’t (for whatever reason) like it or wasn’t successful at it. Was that God’s “fault” for NOT “giving them the grace” to homeschool?
Now…
Put all this “grace” talk together with the notion of spinning plates.
It simply sends the ultimate mixed message.
All this energy and time are focused on talking about specific approaches to the Christian life – what people must DO. But then, like the proverbial cherry on top, SGMers are also fed another message, that all the stuff they DO is actually grace…so they don’t have to try so hard to spin all those plates…
Ultimately, even the effort of NOT spinning plates is added to the list of stuff that people must DO.
Constantly being fed mixed messages like this will lead to severe cognitive dissonance, where what is being SAID actually contradicts the day-to-day reality of life in the organization.
And it’s especially confusing because at least half the audience will never actually HEAR or PICK UP ON this whole dynamic. The people who aren’t entrenched in SGM life (the non-SGM outsiders) will only hear the words about not spinning plates and come away with the notion that, “Wow, that CJ is an amazing teacher who tells us not to try so hard.” Another percentage of the audience is from that segment of the population that already has their act together and is doing all those good things anyway, so they also don’t feel particularly burdened or conflicted.
But then there are the rest of us who hear the “Try harder not to try” message and want to run screaming for the hills…
December 17th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Kris — #283 — you’ve touched on something that has astounded me for years. I often hear SGM’ers say something like “I just don’t have the grace for that.” What a terrible thing to say, when scripture tells us that God’s grace is SUFFICIENT.
If you don’t want to do something, or aren’t called to do something, or don’t have time to do something — just DON’T do it — and don’t blame it on God for not giving grace.
And your reference to #7 – excellence or legalism?
I thought of a dear friend who taught Bible studies for years. One day, her wealthy executive husband ran off with the woman who cut his hair. As she sorted out all the issues and grieved, she said, “For years, I taught GRACE but lived WORKS.”
December 17th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Kris, thanks for unpacking that. I think your example of homeschool is a good one.
I’d just like to add, as you already know, it’s not just any one thing at any given time. At any given time, someone might be trying to “have grace” to:
homeschool
have another baby
“co-labor” alongside their husband as he leads care group
entertain er “hospitality” events at home
keep a clean and tidy home
be “available” for hubby
attend numerous functions at church each week
teach a homeschool co-op
prepare her daughters for being a wife and mother
have a quiet time every morning
read books
What else? The “grace” God is giving you could be for dozens of things at any given time. And that is way too much pressure for any one person.
And since I am wholly convinced that CJ et al don’t do anything that’s not already well planned out and quite “strategic,” what I’d like to hear is what you think the motivation is for this. (I have my opinion…but…)
Sid
December 19th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Wow Kris!
Folks reading…ESPECIALLY those currently in a Sovereign Grace Ministries church…I hope you carefully read, and reread “Comment #283.”
I’m praying for all those in SGM this holiday season. I’m praying that God will give you the ability to discern what it is you’re *REALLY* hearing, seeing, and reading in SGM.
My heart is heavy this Christmas season for my SGM brothers and sisters-in-Christ who are living “lives of quiet desperation.”
December 21st, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Observer/Listener #279/282
From what I remember about your first post, you made your point in the first paragraph, but then it went on and on…my thought at the time was that just the length of it made it seem like you were really trying to hammer it home. Perhaps that was why it was not well received.
Thanks for having the character to not just play humble and automatically apologize, but to wait for the Spirit’s leading and guidance.
February 8th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
If no one has said it yet (there are a lot of comments), you have a lot of fears that aren’t godly bro. Follow the Bible, Matthew 18. I’m praying for the reconciliation between two groups of people that God calls “children”…