For our “Things That Make You Go Hmmm” file, here’s an excerpt from a post over at The Wartburg Watch (you can read the full article here):
When Joshua Harris assumed the position of Senior Pastor of CLC in 2004, C.J. Mahaney began an extensive campaign to advance SGM full-time. Since 2004, Mahaney has formed some important alliances with leaders of the reformed movement. Now C.J. shares the stage at various conferences with John Piper, Al Mohler, Mark Driscoll, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, and other Calvinists.
How did this “success story” happen? As far as we can determine, C.J. Mahaney was not well known until the release of his book Humility: True Greatness in 2005 and the re-release of Living the Cross Centered Life in 2006. Mahaney seems to have become an overnight success, although it was at least 20 years in the making.
How did C.J. Mahaney become so popular among reformed Christians? We believe C.J.’s secret to success is that he has friends in high places. Here’s what we speculate… We believe his recognition among the “Reformed Big Dogs” began when he befriended Mark Dever, Senior Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, in Washington, D.C. (a church not far from Gaithersburg where CLC is located). C.J. interviewed Mark Dever for 9Marks (a Mark Dever ministry) a couple years ago, and they established during that recorded conversation that they have known each other for 10 years. We believe that conversation took place in 2008. Ten years prior to that time would be have been 1998 — the year Mahaney and Tomczak parted ways. Hmmm……..
Mark Dever is directly connected with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) where he serves as a trustee. Again, mere speculation on our part, but we believe Mark introduced C.J. to Al Mohler fairly early in the Mahaney/Dever friendship because we have discovered that C.J. began making contributions to Southern Seminary in 2002 at the Leaders Associate level (annual gifts of $5,000 to $9,999). Both C.J. and Covenant Life Church (CLC) gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2003. From 2004 to 2007, C.J. gave at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts over $10,000), while CLC gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2004, 2005, and 2006. It appears the church did not make a contribution in 2007; however, C.J. contributed at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts over $10,000) once again in 2007. We haven’t bothered to check C.J.’s contributions for subsequent years. All of this information can be obtained from the SBTS Roll Call by following this link:
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf (use the same website address but change the year accordingly going back to 2003 to verify the above information). Remember that the Roll Call included in the Spring edition of the SBTS magazine is for the previous year. For example, the 2007 Roll Call is published in the 2008 SBTS magazine. The information is stored in a PDF file, so allow a few seconds for it to be retrieved.
In addition to the annual gift levels, the SBTS Roll Call includes the “Lifetime Cumulative Gift Levels”. On the 2005 Roll Call, C.J. Mahaney was listed as a “Patron Member” (cumulative gifts of $25,000 to $49,999). Check out page 45 at this link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2006Spring.pdf
Incredibly, on the 2006 Roll Call, Mahaney has quickly risen to the level of “President’s Council” (cumulative gifts of $100,000 or more). Check out page 43 at this link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2007Spring.pdf
That’s quite commendable, to go from being a Patron Member to a member of the President’s Council in JUST ONE YEAR! In order to accomplish this feat, C.J. had to contribute a MINIMUM of $50,001.00 in 2006.
Until the cumulative gift levels for the SBTS Roll Call are increased beyond the $100,000 mark, C.J. Mahaney will always be listed under “President’s Council”. In 2007 he gave at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts of over $10,000), so we know that C.J. has given a MIMIMUM of $110,000 to Southern Seminary by year end 2007. Here’s the link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf (C.J. is listed on page 36 for the annual gift and on page 43 for the “President’s Council”.)
How did he do it? Here’s our theory. Books can be BIG BUSINESS with the right endorsements! C.J. Mahaney’s book Humility: True Greatness is copyrighted in 2005 and includes this endorsement:
“This is the right book from the right man at the right time.” R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
When Mahaney’s book Living the Cross Centered Life was published in 2006, Al Mohler wrote the forward. Dr. Mohler’s endorsement begins as follows: “The book you now hold in your hands is nothing less than a manifesto for turning your world upside down . . .”
By following the money trail, we believe we have discovered the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. When a rather obscure charismatic (C.J. Mahaney) receives a glowing endorsement from a well-respected Baptist leader (Al Mohler), the results can be extremely profitable for both Mahaney and Southern Seminary!
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
February 8th, 2010 at 8:14 am
In all of this, the thing that puzzles me the most is, what is CJ doing donating over $100k to an organization like the SBTS…when SGM has its own in-house PC? And, to the best of my knowledge, SGM would not recognize a degree from the SBTS as enough training for one of its own pastors, but instead would demand that the pastor also attend the PC?
Another puzzling thing is how CJ feels about the Southern Baptist stance on Charismatic beliefs and practices. Traditionally, Southern Baptists do NOT take a continuationist stance on the more dramatic gifts of the Spirit.
February 8th, 2010 at 8:34 am
This is shocking.
If CJ has that sort of money laying around, why isn’t he putting it back in his own system?
Historically, evangelists have come under huge scrutiny for spending the money they make in their ministry in irrelevant, frivolous ways. Why not scrutinize CJ for doing the same.
Really…what does this donation do for CJ’s flock? What does it do for his own people? How about the SGM churches that are barely treading water right now? Maybe they could use a bit of support from SGM in their time of need?
Ya know, it never ceases to amaze me. One thing piles on another.
February 8th, 2010 at 8:37 am
I grew up among some staunch Southern Baptists who honestly believed that stuff like speaking in tongues was “from the devil” – that since it could not be from God, then it had to be something the devil was using to deceive and distract people.
You probably won’t hear present-day Southern Baptists talk in such strong language, but I believe the “official” stance of the SBC on “the gifts” is cessationism. Here is an interesting book review, written by none other than Al Mohler:
http://www.sbclife.org/articles/2000/01/sla6.asp
Mohler’s review can be summed up in this one line:
I think we can get a feeling for the Southern Baptists’ general uneasiness when it comes to Charismatic things. Which again begs the question, what are they doing hobnobbing with CJ, and why is CJ dishing out so much money to their seminary?
I don’t think it’s a huge coincidence that SGM changed its position on what it means to be “baptized in the Holy Spirit” around the same time that CJ’s association with SBTS really got off the ground.
I don’t understand how longtime SGMers – those who joined when PDI was fully and unabashedly Charismatic – deal with this. It wasn’t like SGM’s new position was put up for a congregational vote, or that it reflected the hearts of the majority of members. Rather, it was something that was just sort of foisted onto the people – “Here’s our new position, like it or lump it.”
Doesn’t this strike anybody as odd?
February 8th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Wait one minute here!
I looked at the lists from the links.
BOTH CJ Mahaney AND Sovereign Grace Ministries gave OVER $10,000 that year? ????? BOTH did???????????
I was thinking it was just CJ.
So, does this mean that CJ AND SGM gave the money individually? Or does this mean that CJ and SGM are grouped together, but then they split up their names in the listings?
And if you look at it, when CJ became a $100,000 + giver, so did SGM, in the same year.
It’s not making sense…
I guess when CJ gives his little speeches about how he’s on all these boards with guys who have lots of initials behind their names, it’s really because he gives big bucks.
February 8th, 2010 at 8:48 am
Just discovered this site last night… I’m glad someone out there is willing to shed some light on the distortions and spiritual abuse that have been prevelent in the SGM circles for years. My own history with SGM dates back to PDI. I have not been a part of this organization of churches for over a decade now.. I had always hoped that maybe things had changed for the better there in the past years.. that perhaps God had led these people into a more genuine understanding of grace. It seems not. Almost choked on my morning coffee when I saw in this post that C.J. wrote a book on humility. Wow.
February 8th, 2010 at 8:49 am
I just wonder if SGMers knew that their organization was giving money to the SBTS like this? Is it something that’s published in SGM’s annual financial reports? Is this info distributed to SGM congregations?
February 8th, 2010 at 9:00 am
Hi, SGMexile -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:03 am
I wonder if Al Mohler has made similar donations to the Pastors College.
If not, why not?
February 8th, 2010 at 9:07 am
I’m so concerned for the SBC — my extended family includes SGC preachers, ministers of music, missionaries, Sunday school teachers, and more. It seems to me the connection is CBMW which I learned on Wartburg is housed at the Southern Baptist seminary in Louisville. When I left CLC and looked at other churches, I ultimately dismissed the Baptists because of CBMW.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:07 am
Is there anyone reading here who went to CLC and gave/tithed there in 2009?
How about SGM?
Would you be willing to share the financial report here?
February 8th, 2010 at 9:17 am
Kris said:
those who joined when PDI was fully and unabashedly Charismatic – deal with this. It wasn’t like SGM’s new position was put up for a congregational vote, or that it reflected the hearts of the majority of members. Rather, it was something that was just sort of foisted onto the people – “Here’s our new position, like it or lump it.”
Some of the time, as been pointed out, the SGM Leaders aren’t even that up front. They change theology etc. without even informing the congregation. Changing things without notice is much worse than saying this is the change we are doing and “accept it or leave.” It certainly looks like deception.
Perhaps what SGM’s strategy is to make minor subtle changes like they appeared to do when they moved toward Calvinism. Maybe they hope that members wouldn’t pick up on the change and thus are more easily swayed to this new direction?
February 8th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Sidney said:
“Wait one minute here!
I looked at the lists from the links.
BOTH CJ Mahaney AND Sovereign Grace Ministries gave OVER $10,000 that year? ????? BOTH did???????????
I was thinking it was just CJ.”
Sidney,
One point of clarification — it was “Covenant Life Church” individually that gave to Southern Seminary, not SGM in general.
Mahaney was the pastor of CLC when some of these church donations were made.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:30 am
Looks like “Mr. Humility” wants to be famous and more “influence” than he does as the pope of SGM. Of course, with the increased “fame” in the evangelical world comes more $$$$.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:45 am
Someone a while ago posted a few links showing (county tax records) that show C.J. Mahaney gifted his existing residence with an assessment value of $500K to one of his daughters and son in law and then paid cash for a new residence with an assessment value of $700K. This was done in 5/2008.
C.J. Mahaney obviously isn’t hurting for money. I am sure there aren’t many people, especially pastors, that have the resources to do this.
C.J.’s daughter and son in law were quite fortunate. Usually the best a young couple can hope for is help on the down payment. Nice to be a child of privilege.
It is just kind of sad when one see a person apparently making a high income at a church that requires the tithe and many times presents higher than 10% as being ideal. They are also asking for additional “offerings” on top of the tithe. This happens when I am sure a number of the families in these SGM Churches are struggling financially.
February 8th, 2010 at 10:00 am
I really don’t have an issue with leaders who live well, or who have money to do things like “gift” homes to their children.
And if CJ wants to give $$ to the SBTS, that’s fine. Sort of.
But it does present a number of odd inconsistencies. As I said before, how does SGM reconcile such strong financial support for an organization like the SBTS with the fact that SGM does not consider the SBTS adequate training for its own pastors?
And, how does SGM reconcile the SBTS’s traditionally cessationist stance with its own supposed “Charismatic” position? (Personally, I think we could make a good case for the assertion that SGM is – in practice, at least – no longer Charismatic…but SGM holds so many people hostage with the notion that they’re BOTH “Reformed” AND “Charismatic” that we will take SGM’s own statements about itself at face value and grant that SGM is – on paper, anyway – “Charismatic.”)
And, does any Southern Baptist church, or the SBTS itself, support SGM and/or the Pastors College in any sort of reciprocal fashion? If not, then why the one-way relationship?
Finally, were CLC members aware of these donations?
February 8th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Here’s another thought…
People can say that we’re just being picky – that we’re being unfairly critical of CJ Mahaney. Or whatever.
But it just struck me, as I was sitting here thinking about this, that because of SGM’s structure of governance, because CJ really answers to no one who doesn’t also work for him, he’s GOT to be extra-scrupulous in how he conducts his business.
He can’t blame these donations on a board of directors or anything. By his own design, he’s the one holding the bag. Since he holds so much ultimate responsibility for SGM and the things that SGM/CLC decide to do, he’s GOT to be absolutely above reproach. He’s GOT to be willing to be open about things like where he donates the organization’s money. After all, it’s not like there’s any recourse for any CLC member who isn’t so happy about it. The only way CLC members can “vote” is with their feet, so to speak.
CJ could choose – for that matter, all SGM pastors could choose – to make themselves formally accountable to boards of directors made up of non-employees. But they don’t choose to do that. Instead, they claim to be “held accountable” by people who ultimately depend upon them for their paychecks.
February 8th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Deb,
The link to SBTS mag lists Sovereign Grace Ministries under businesses and CJ Mahaney under individuals.
Sorry if this is not correct information, but I was just reading it from the resource you linked.
Sidney
February 8th, 2010 at 11:17 am
Kris said:
“I really don’t have an issue with leaders who live well, or who have money to do things like “gift” homes to their children.
And if CJ wants to give $$ to the SBTS, that’s fine. Sort of.”
I feel that leaders in churches should make a reasonable and comfortable living but not so sure I would agree that leaders should make enough to “live well” depending on what is meant by that. I am not so sure that being able to make the contributions he has made to the SBTS, as well as funds to gift a house to someone in his family is just “reasonable and comfortable.” I would appeal that there be a balance here.
It appears that Mahaney is making significantly more than most of the members in his organization. It may not be extremely lavish but certainly appears well above average. Also one hears about the nice vacations Mahaney has taken his family on in the past. It does concern me to see a leader with this type of income when there is such a push for both tithing and additional offerings from some families whose money is fairly tight.
I am sure a significant part of his salary from book sales but as has been discussed before, he wrote those books while on salary. Some could call that “double dipping” depending on how Mahaney is paid, i.e. writing books on company time. He also has a captive audience of people in his group that buy his books. Maybe Mahaney could work without a salary if his book royalties are that high.
Just my thoughts.
Also wouldn’t there be a better use of these funds than to pay a high salary?
You do raise some good points about Mahaney needing to be above reproach.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:20 am
Kris
I do have a bit of a problem with Mahaney making so much money. When Deb and I visited a SG church locally, we saw his books, etc. being pushed for purchase outside the sanctuary. Instead of “gifting” his daughter with said house, why not sink the money into a SG church which is struggling. CJ is taking time away from SGM shilling his books yet he is an employee of the organization and the money is made on SGM time.I feel for those people who feel obligated to donate above and beyond, get lectured if they don’t give appropriately and get lectured if they aren’t reading the books which they must pay for. My dad would have called this a “racket.”
February 8th, 2010 at 11:26 am
Sidney said:
“The link to SBTS mag lists Sovereign Grace Ministries under businesses and CJ Mahaney under individuals.”
OOPS! Who would have thought to look for SGM under “Businesses”. So the truth finally comes out…
So sorry I missed it. I may have to go back and amend the post.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:32 am
It seems like CJ and SGM may have much in common with the Oldest Profession.
Now, if there were just a willingness to repent in Gaithersburg.
February 8th, 2010 at 11:42 am
The irony of this is Mahaney sponges money from his family of churches, gifts his daughters with fancy houses so they’re set up to…….blog ad nauseam about being suzie homemakers in a way that seems to shame those who do not or, perhaps *can* not live with one income.
This ties in with the previous two Kris posts where our marriages and families are being affected.
My question is as follows, is there anything the Mahaneys leave for the Holy Spirit to inspire?
February 8th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
DB said,
The Mahaney ladies are the female voice of SGM. They are the de facto authorities about “Biblical” womanhood. They hold forth about how women should find their identities primarily through homemaking. They may sugar it up with the disclaimer of, “It’s just a suggestion,” but ultimately, it’s pretty easy to figure out what is considered “more biblical” or “wiser” in the SGM world.
Neglected in all of this, though, is the simple fact that the ability to be a stay-at-home wife is most of the time primarily a financial consideration. Especially in today’s economy, lots of women do not have the luxury of a daddy with a ministry at his disposal, where he can market his books to a captive audience, who will then dash out and buy them. Most women do not have a daddy who can ensconce their husbands in decently-paid pastoral positions and enable them to own expensive houses in an expensive part of the country.
It really bothers me that a theological significance is then attached to these ideas about “Biblical” womanhood…without acknowledging the tremendous amount of privilege that enables them to live these lives…privilege that ultimately has very little to do with theology but has everything to do with power and position.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
OK class, let’s spell these words together now…
N-E-P-O-T-I-S-M
E-N-T-R-E-N-C-H-M-E-N-T
F-A-M-I-L-Y B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S
February 8th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
Deb,
You should amend the post. And credit me: “the commenter known as SIDNEY.”
LOL. I’m kidding. It was so bizarre when I saw Sovereign Grace Ministries right there out of the corner of my eye.
I wonder if SGM has a “gift matching” program for its employees.
Nonetheless, it seems like they are giving right about at the same level as CJ.
Hmm….
February 8th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Kris-
Really-all SG members should be concerned about where CJ and SGM INC. send their money…pretty sure that all SG churches tithe to SG INC.
In other words, our little SG church plant was expected to give 10 percent of it’s tithe to headquarters. Maybe someone more recent to SG can confirm if this practice still is in place.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Random thoughts:
Don’t forget SGM gifts to Ligonier … don’t forget checks presented by Dave Harvey to the poor and suffering in California (just go to church websites and find his latest MP3s. He presented checks at Grace Church and Wellspring) … there are struggling churches in SGM. I have heard of one where the pastor received only half rations for last year, which my sources indicate was probably less than $15 k … there is a vast gulf in financial resources in SG churches. Believe it or not there are country church mouse poor congregations that exist in the shadow of the CLCs, CFs, MLs, etc … how can CJ sleep at night when he spends or is comped more for a family vacation while some pastors in SG churches have just enough to buy groceries (and tithe)?
Praying for the lending tables to be overturned,
Former SG Pastor
February 8th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Does anybody have any idea for a legit answer to the question I posed at the beginning of these comments -
I mean, let’s all put on our thinking caps and try hard to think like diehard SGMers. How would they explain what strikes me as a really odd contradiction? How would they reconcile SGM’s (and CJ’s) support of an organization that SGM does not believe is even doing an adequate job of training people to be pastors in the SGM world?
What else is this, if it’s not buying favor to gain some reflected credibility?
I cannot even begin to recount how many times I’ve had to respond to the question of, “Kris, do you really believe that you are so much smarter than Al Mohler and all those other T4G/CBMW guys who share the stage with CJ and endorse his books? If CJ/SGM really did have problems, Al Mohler wouldn’t be endorsing them!”
My response is always something like this:
First of all, NO, I do NOT think I’m “smarter” than these great Christian minds. Pulllllease!
But secondly, I don’t believe that most of these men have a clue about how the things that CJ writes and teaches play out in the unique little world of SGM. What can sound like “sound Biblical exhortation” to someone like Al Mohler can play out very differently in a place where your pastor is always right, it is your duty to obey and submit to him and “make his job a joy,” and where there is utterly no recourse for you if you and your pastor have a persistent difference of opinion about something and he refuses to back down.
These T4G/CBMW guys are BUSY MEN. Most of them have more than they can even reasonably handle, what with managing their own ministries and then flying around the country to speak, plus the time they spend writing and promoting their books. I’d venture to guess that some of ‘em barely even do more than SKIM the books they so glowingly endorse. Obviously there’s no way they can invest the time to really get inside the SGM mindset. (For the record, I’ve been doing this site for more than 2 years, and I still wouldn’t say I’m able to get into the SGM mindset 100% of the time!
)
Finally, I believe that even if these guys actually DID take the time to figure things out, and even if they actually DID become cognizant of SGM’s issues, the fact remains that they all need each other. There’s a lot to lose when you alienate one or more of the Reformed Big Dogs…not to mention the “egg on your face” if you were to actually admit that you endorsed some giggling bald guy without actually first knowing more fully what he was all about.
But back to my question – can anybody explain to me how SGMers reconcile these sorts of donations to the SBTS when SGM does not believe that the SBTS is an adequate training facility for SGM pastors?
February 8th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
This post makes me sad on so many levels. During the time that I was in leadership at a SGc I had appeals made in person to me from 2 leaders in 3rd world countries to come and train native pastors. Either of these requests could have been granted inexpensively for the cost of airfare and living expenses for one or two teachers. I viewed this like a Macedonian call. The call was presented to the local sr pastor plus staff and leadership ream as well as the regional apostle. Result? Not a d*** thing. Not a penny spent. Not a finger lifted.
Send a check to Southern Seminary? Sure. Give a gift to a ministry run by well-heeled Presbys? You bet! Provide rebates to suburban California congretations? Yes we can. Help the truly poor and suffering in corners of the globe where you will get no publicity? Forget about it.
Makes it hard to go back to reading CJ’s lifechanging hints for watching the Superbowl.
Sickened,
Former SG Pastor
February 8th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
FGSP, I have a question for you. Does an SGC, out of it’s collected tithes and offerings, HAVE TO give to SGM? If so, how much? Is there a required amount (maybe a percentage) the local church has to pass along to SGM in order to stay in the fold? I’ve always thought there was this requirement, but have never been able to get a straight answer.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
This part at the link really hit me:
“Why would reformed leaders like Al Mohler, President of SBTS, endorse C.J. Mahaney who is not a Southern Baptist and who arguably is not a theologian? We believe one of the secrets is that Mahaney’s ministry has led the way in AUTHORITARIANISM for at least THREE DECADES. Could it be that reformed leaders are willing to endorse C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries in exchange for learning how to rule their flocks by implementing SGM’s church polity?
Here’s where the lack of balance in Sovereign Grace Ministries comes into play. We have done extensive research on SGM by following two blogs that are speaking out against this “family of churches”. They are http://www.sgmsurvivors.com and http://www.sgmrefuge.com
We have read alarming testimonies written by current and former SGM members, and we have concluded that the pastors in this “family of churches” rule with an iron fist. Patriarchy is preached and practiced in these churches, and the members are extremely fearful. We have never seen such heavy-handed control exercised in a church setting. As we have been following the New Calvinists, it appears they want to implement SGM “management” techniques in their own congregations.”
I assume some R. big dogs end up at the same conferences with CJ through no fault of their own and probably sincerely desire to help teach theology to the next generation. Love believes the best until there is clear proof of wrong. But I’d also guess that as the economy is plunging downhill and finances get worse, some surely want to tighten an iron grip on their money supply.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
I was told in the last couple years that they give back 10% to SGM.
Again, if we had some financial statements from SGM churches, this would be an easy thing to find out.
WHO has those? ANYONE who tithed in the last year at a SGM church has them. And anyone who gave extra money to SGM has them too.
February 8th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
CD -
Great question. There is no straight answer, though.
At the church that I served/attended we were told by the area apostle to pony up a “tithe”, “10%”. Those were his words. Based on the last set of reports provided to members the amount paid was less than 5% (it may have been 1-2% but I can’t remember). On the budget for the year that was in process the giving to SG was less than 10%. Supposedly these reports were approved by the regional apostle (but I wouldn’t be surprised if the sr pastor had two sets of books). Why the apostle would state a 10% minimum but accept less is beyond me.
My guess is that most churches hit the 10% mark or more when you add up annual payments, “mission” tariffs, support to PC candidates, etc. But I know that at least one church was way short and I don’t know the reason why.
Clear as mud?
Former SG Pastor
February 8th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
So, I was going about my chores just now when something else hit me.
More questions.
In just about every neighborhood where an SGM church has been planted – typically at significant expense and sacrifice – there will be within easy driving distance a church associated with the Southern Baptist Convention. Granted, the SBC is a fairly loose association (more like an actual “family of churches” than a denomination). Consequently, SBC churches will vary significantly in style than do SGM churches.
BUT – if SGM is so A-OK with the SBC that they feel comfy pumping thousands and thousands of dollars into one of the SBC’s main seminaries, then why is SGM turning around and planting churches in areas already well-served by one or more SBC churches?
Does anyone else follow my train of thought here?
I think it’s obvious – if you look at the FACTS about SGM – that SGM does not really believe that the Southern Baptist Convention does things well enough. After all, if an STBS-trained guy comes to SGM and eventually distinguishes himself enough to be pegged as leadership material, and if he eventually does go on to get called to be an SGM pastor, his SGM authorities will NOT believe that his STBS degree represents enough training for him. No. He will still have to scrape together the finances and uproot his family and rent an illegal basement apartment from some CLC family, all so that he can attend SGM’s own Pastors College.
Likewise, SGM clearly does not believe that Southern Baptist churches are doing a good enough job…or else they wouldn’t go to such great lengths to establish new SGM churches in places right down the street from SBC churches.
So why is CJ/SGM donating all that moola to a seminary that they don’t believe gives pastors adequate training, run by an organization that they don’t believe “does church” well enough?
February 8th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
If you look at SGM as a for profit business Corporation instead of a church, things make more sense. Not much, but more than with the church model.
February 8th, 2010 at 2:51 pm
Sidney said:
“The link to SBTS mag lists Sovereign Grace Ministries under businesses…”
I just printed this page from the 2007 Roll Call. Actually, “Sovereign Grace Ministries, Gaithersburg, Maryland” is listed under “Businesses, Denominations, and Foundations”.
I do plan to give you well-deserved credit for spotting SGM on the list.
February 8th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
“So why is CJ/SGM donating all that moola to a seminary that they don’t believe gives pastors adequate training, run by an organization that they don’t believe “does church” well enough?”
Kris,
Maybe the reason no one has answered your question is that we are all scratching our heads, wondering the same thing, with no plausable answer. Has anyone with a degree from an SBC seminary every been turned down for a pastor’s postion at SGM? Been made to go to the PC, even though he has a degree from an SBC seminary? If the answer to these two questions is a factual “yes”, then there this is truly something to be concerned about. Does anyone have knowledge of this happening?
As for sgm being charismatic, PDI once was, though it was well-balanced with the word of God. Changes were made in the church I attended without instructing the members. With these changes came more obvious control over our lives (confession of sin, etc.) and finances (a sermon correcting us on not tything properly – the pastor did blame himself for not “training” us better). Now I understand, finally, what was happening. They were moving from a balanced charismatic chruch to a reformed one. Without telling us. Like we were little kids. If they had been upfront and honest about the change in direction and what that would mean (I am speaking only of the church I attended), then my family could have made an “adult” decision about staying on as members. The final “leaving” wouldn’t have messed with our minds so much!
February 8th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Canary asked:
“Has anyone with a degree from an SBC seminary every been turned down for a pastor’s postion at SGM? Been made to go to the PC, even though he has a degree from an SBC seminary? If the answer to these two questions is a factual “yes”, then there this is truly something to be concerned about. Does anyone have knowledge of this happening?”
Canary,
It’s funny you should ask that…
Here’s an excerpt from a recent comment over at SGM Refuge, along with the link:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/02/01/grace-church-in-san-diego/comment-page-1/#comment-15390
“…there was a pastor who graduated from Southern Seminary and then was bitten by the SG bug and went to the PC. After graduating from the PC he was placed in an SG church in an associate position. When the SG ruling council replaced the church’s founding pastor (due to health and gifting), they passed over the seminary/PC grad and instead installed a PC student (he hadn’t finished the PC yet). It struck me as odd that the seminary/PC grad made it through his training programs, apparently confirmed in giftings, only to have them questioned after all that training and experience. To me the process appeared cold and capricious.”
February 8th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
The only visible sign of continuationist practice at many SG churches and events is the prophecy mike and not all churches utilize these. Even this remnant is subdued; I met with a group of decidedly cessationist visitors at a SG event a few years ago and they called the prophesying that occurred “testifying” or “giving testimony”. They didn’t see it as a spiritual gift at all. Many nowadays regard physical expressiveness as charismatic; doctrine or other practices don’t apply.
With the exception of prophetic song at a couple of WorshipGod events, I only observed one practice that would be regarded as charismatic. This was when someone spoke in tongues during prayers for healing. I heard a single teaching on the gifts of the Spirit in the 5 (+/-) years I was associated with SG; this was at a seminar session at WG06. Such sessions were eliminated in following years.
Lack of charismatic/continuationist practice makes many SG churches blend in with the pervading evangelical grayness.
Sought the Spirit at SG and didn’t often find Him,
Former SG Pastor
February 8th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
I find it so interesting, the way that Canary describes her church’s quiet morphing from being a well-balanced Charismatic church to one that was “essentially Reformed.”
That is precisely how the shift from blatantly Charismatic to “Reformed” has been described by those at CLC, too. I’m thinking it was something that took place at most of the PDI churches that existed back when things changed at Corporate.
The interesting thing to me is (as always), WHY? Why did they change things with no real announcement, no special question-and-answer panel for concerned members, no written report to members that they could have perused at their leisure?
It wasn’t like leadership just FORGOT to mention it.
And it also wasn’t like leadership WASN’T AWARE that they were changing things.
This whole Al Mohler/SBTS connection is quite intriguing, especially in light of the fact that just a few years prior to the first $10,000 check CJ wrote to SBTS, PDI leaders quietly morphed their churches to be more in line with what guys like Mohler respect.
But what’s really sad to me is that a lot of SGMers out there still genuinely believe that their church is “Charismatic.” I get SO MANY emails from people who ask me the same question – “Where else could I go to church…what other denomination is both ‘Charismatic’ AND ‘Reformed’?”
I always tell them the same thing, which is that the reality is that their very own SGM church is not really either of those things.
February 8th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Kris,
Maybe you should have a thread about the ever changing statement of faith. We asked a member of our “leadership team” about our local SGM church statment of faith changing, and the person acknowledged that yes, it probably has changed four or five times in the last 15 years, and that it was no big deal. Well it’s a big deal to us old-timers who didn’t know it changed until we started hearing things being taught and then discussed in care group that were obviously more Calvinist than the statement of faith was when we joined our local SGM church…
Why should we trust these leaders when they think its okay to change the “rule book” on us without telling us???
February 8th, 2010 at 4:46 pm
Sue,
Like I said, I am just intrigued by the WHY of it – WHY would a statement of faith be changed, even slightly, without formally announcing and explaining it to the congregation?
(I would have added “without congregational input,” but alas, we know that in SGM there is no such thing…)
It’s sort of interesting to me, because if church members sought to change something on their end of things – like if it were technically possible for them to go in and edit some aspect of the “Membership Covenant” they had to sign – I don’t think leadership would look kindly upon that.
But leadership is free to change one of the key aspects of what members agree to and affirm – the statement of faith – without explanation or even (in some cases) an announcement.
Think of how bizarre that is.
What is the point of all these membership covenants anyway, if they can (and likely will) be altered willy-nilly without explanation? Why even have members sign or agree to anything, if what they’re agreeing to can be changed anyway?
February 8th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Well we’ve asked why it has changed, but have not really been given an explanation — just that CJ was always “reformed”, and our pastor had to be “reformed” to become a SGM pastor. We’ve told a few friends outside our SGM church that the statement of faith changed without the members being informed — and no one can believe that that can happen…and they all think we should flee this church ASAP….
February 8th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
Deb,
I remember reading that now over at the Refuge. So we have at least one witness to the fact that a man from a SB seminary had to go to the PC. Man, that is just too bizarre. What could he have possibly learned that he didn’t already know a hundred times over? Or am I just presuming?
Kris,
I am surprised (though I shouldn’t be) that what I experienced happened at another sgm church. So much makes sense, now. Like SueBee asks, “Why should we trust these leaders when they think its okay to change the “rule book” on us without telling us???”
I went through several years of torment in my mind, trying to figure it all out. They changed the rule book and didn’t say anything! I wasn’t crazy. These things did happen. So much suffering could have been avoided if the leaders had only told us what they were doing. My family and I would have left quietly, understanding that the direction being taken by leadership was not where we were called to go. Instead, it was a subtle shifting of attitudes and teaching. I would almost call it deception to have not told us what they were doing.
So much pain and confusion…it all could have been avoided if integrity had been in play.
February 8th, 2010 at 5:03 pm
Didn’t CJ’s mantra use to be, “Constant change is here to stay”? I thought he was just getting us all prepared to have leadership changes happen more often. Little did I know…
February 8th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
Kris said
“What is the point of all these membership covenants anyway, if they can (and likely will) be altered willy-nilly without explanation? Why even have members sign or agree to anything, if what they’re agreeing to can be changed anyway?”
Kind of reminds me of dealing with credit card contracts…you know the ones where they say that they can change or discontinue the contract at any time, without warning, and almost always to their benefit and your financial harm.
SueBee- I agree with your friends, trusting SG leaders, that don’t explain or notify changes in the statement of faith or membership covenant, is like trusting a credit card company to look out for your financial well being. I think Proverbs warns against those who move boundary stones and the first major schism between Eastern and Western Churches was over the insertion of a word into the creed, without the knowledge or approval of the Eastern church.
Anyway-I hope you find your way through it all…
peace-mm
February 8th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Dude, you got it! You solved everything! Now, everyone will know that Randy Alcorn, James MacDonald, Wayne Grudem, D.A. Carson, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, Gary Thomas, Bob Lepine, John MacArthur, John Piper, et. al. who have commented on C.J.’s books are guilty of this same thing. They must have never once thought that they were endorsing content in a book that would help others see who their God is.
Are you not gaining income from people buying various items from your website? I bet you are in bed with the show Survivor, because of the logo and the obvious reference to the show. Do you give this income to help seminarians (like myself) have a chance at bettering their family’s future? What a hypocrite. I guess you finally joined the ranks of the rest of us. I held you in such high esteem before you made a complete fool of yourself.
But, you know what? The Father calls you “sons”, so I don’t think that I will hold a grudge, but forgive you like Christ forgave me. He had compassion on my sins, so I won’t continue for years to destroy relationships between believers, but maybe I would instead try to mend broken ones. I guess that is what you are doing on this site, mending broken relationships by continually bringing up sin in others, and profiting from it. Awesome.
February 8th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
Hey, Chad B -
It’s always so nice when a “bro” like yourself takes the time to really read and understand the site before weighing in with the Matthew 18 platitudes…
Or not.
Y’see, Chad, I’m not a “dude,” and you obviously haven’t been reading here much, or you wouldn’t have spouted off the way that you did.
There’s way more to this than what you seem to think.
Dude.
February 8th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
Hey Dude –
You seem like a really nice seminarian. I’ll send you the proceeds from the last quarter.
February 8th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
And oh yeah, the “Survivor” merchandise has netted Guy (my husband) and me all of about $15 since we first put it up – as more of a joke than anything else – about 18 months ago. That $15 is not even enough to pay for the domain name. This really is a labor of love.
Sheesh, for a “seminarian,” you sound frighteningly flippant and immature. Yikes. PC student? Or do you go to a real school?