For our “Things That Make You Go Hmmm” file, here’s an excerpt from a post over at The Wartburg Watch (you can read the full article here):
When Joshua Harris assumed the position of Senior Pastor of CLC in 2004, C.J. Mahaney began an extensive campaign to advance SGM full-time. Since 2004, Mahaney has formed some important alliances with leaders of the reformed movement. Now C.J. shares the stage at various conferences with John Piper, Al Mohler, Mark Driscoll, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, and other Calvinists.
How did this “success story” happen? As far as we can determine, C.J. Mahaney was not well known until the release of his book Humility: True Greatness in 2005 and the re-release of Living the Cross Centered Life in 2006. Mahaney seems to have become an overnight success, although it was at least 20 years in the making.
How did C.J. Mahaney become so popular among reformed Christians? We believe C.J.’s secret to success is that he has friends in high places. Here’s what we speculate… We believe his recognition among the “Reformed Big Dogs” began when he befriended Mark Dever, Senior Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, in Washington, D.C. (a church not far from Gaithersburg where CLC is located). C.J. interviewed Mark Dever for 9Marks (a Mark Dever ministry) a couple years ago, and they established during that recorded conversation that they have known each other for 10 years. We believe that conversation took place in 2008. Ten years prior to that time would be have been 1998 — the year Mahaney and Tomczak parted ways. Hmmm……..
Mark Dever is directly connected with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) where he serves as a trustee. Again, mere speculation on our part, but we believe Mark introduced C.J. to Al Mohler fairly early in the Mahaney/Dever friendship because we have discovered that C.J. began making contributions to Southern Seminary in 2002 at the Leaders Associate level (annual gifts of $5,000 to $9,999). Both C.J. and Covenant Life Church (CLC) gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2003. From 2004 to 2007, C.J. gave at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts over $10,000), while CLC gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2004, 2005, and 2006. It appears the church did not make a contribution in 2007; however, C.J. contributed at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts over $10,000) once again in 2007. We haven’t bothered to check C.J.’s contributions for subsequent years. All of this information can be obtained from the SBTS Roll Call by following this link:
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf (use the same website address but change the year accordingly going back to 2003 to verify the above information). Remember that the Roll Call included in the Spring edition of the SBTS magazine is for the previous year. For example, the 2007 Roll Call is published in the 2008 SBTS magazine. The information is stored in a PDF file, so allow a few seconds for it to be retrieved.
In addition to the annual gift levels, the SBTS Roll Call includes the “Lifetime Cumulative Gift Levels”. On the 2005 Roll Call, C.J. Mahaney was listed as a “Patron Member” (cumulative gifts of $25,000 to $49,999). Check out page 45 at this link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2006Spring.pdf
Incredibly, on the 2006 Roll Call, Mahaney has quickly risen to the level of “President’s Council” (cumulative gifts of $100,000 or more). Check out page 43 at this link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2007Spring.pdf
That’s quite commendable, to go from being a Patron Member to a member of the President’s Council in JUST ONE YEAR! In order to accomplish this feat, C.J. had to contribute a MINIMUM of $50,001.00 in 2006.
Until the cumulative gift levels for the SBTS Roll Call are increased beyond the $100,000 mark, C.J. Mahaney will always be listed under “President’s Council”. In 2007 he gave at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts of over $10,000), so we know that C.J. has given a MIMIMUM of $110,000 to Southern Seminary by year end 2007. Here’s the link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf (C.J. is listed on page 36 for the annual gift and on page 43 for the “President’s Council”.)
How did he do it? Here’s our theory. Books can be BIG BUSINESS with the right endorsements! C.J. Mahaney’s book Humility: True Greatness is copyrighted in 2005 and includes this endorsement:
“This is the right book from the right man at the right time.” R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
When Mahaney’s book Living the Cross Centered Life was published in 2006, Al Mohler wrote the forward. Dr. Mohler’s endorsement begins as follows: “The book you now hold in your hands is nothing less than a manifesto for turning your world upside down . . .”
By following the money trail, we believe we have discovered the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. When a rather obscure charismatic (C.J. Mahaney) receives a glowing endorsement from a well-respected Baptist leader (Al Mohler), the results can be extremely profitable for both Mahaney and Southern Seminary!
February 8th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
(I had a sudden vision of Chad flipping frantically through the endorsement pages of his own well-thumbed copies of CJ’s books, to compile that list of names up there in comment #47…)
Chad, I’m sorry I’m teasing you. But really, how long did you read here before deciding to weigh in to defend
your idolCJ? It couldn’t have been very long, or you would have figured out that I’m not a dude, I’m a chick.And that makes you sound kinda silly.
But anyway, you should be careful about what sorts of challenges you throw out there. If Dee and Deb start digging, they may just find all sorts of other money trails from CJ’s purse (“It’s not a purse! It’s European!”) to those other guys’ coffers.
But dude, stick around and tell us about yourself. How long have you been with the organization? How’s PC treating you?
February 8th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Hmm. I’m all for people making money and being well-compensated for hard work. I’m all for those people giving lots of that money away within the Kingdom of God and to other worthy causes. But look at another example of a pastor/writer: Rick Warren, who, if I am not mistaken, added up everything the church paid him over his career as a pastor, and paid it all back and gave more. Maybe that’s not a good example, because the huge amount of $ he generated probably makes CJ look like a pauper, and Warren still has plenty left over. But there are other pastors who write books, etc., and believe that the materials they produce for God should be given to the church at the least possible cost — basically, they charge enough to cover printing costs, etc.
I’m shocked though, at the mixed message of supporting the SBTS yet not encouraging people to enroll there. But hey, I’m all for supporting good guys. Maybe next they’ll give to the International Mission Board and help send Southern Baptist missionaries to the ends of the earth! But come on, SGM, where are CJ’s blog posts explaining that SBTS is getting support generated by CJ’s book sales and from CLC?
Re: the change in theology. When we first joined a PDI church, they didn’t have a published statement of faith. Nobody really knew what they believed except by showing up on Sunday mornings and hearing the sermons. We were from a reformed background with a significant charismatic element that was NOT SGM. They didn’t invent that wheel. But it’s been a long time since I’ve heard the head worship leader say “Ok, let’s everybody speak in tongues”.
When it comes to CJ and his money, or anybody else and their money, God asks for the same faithfulness from everyone. You can argue to tithe or not to tithe, but there’s not much point in arguing to give or not to give. The rich have an awful lot more to give. But I’m with Kris — what’s up with giving $ to a seminary and not even sending people to school there?? Now, if they decide to close down the PC and pack those guys off to Louisville for three years, I’ll applaud and maybe even send a check!
February 8th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Oh snap. Chad’s not from the PC. He does go to a real college. Or at least that’s what his MySpace says.
My bad.
At least we can breathe easier, knowing that Chad’s not living in an illegally-rented basement.
February 8th, 2010 at 6:42 pm
Kris, you said: “(I had a sudden vision of Chad flipping frantically through the endorsement pages of his own well-thumbed copies of CJ’s books, to compile that list of names up there in comment #47…)”
While I was reading Chad B’s comment and list of names, I had a picture of MYSELF! Because when I was delusional (delusions of grandeur because of my “status” as a “sgm christian”), I would have done the SAME EXACT thing!
I’d have read Kris’ mean spirited post here (coming from a completely different blog, mind you), crossed my arms and let out a HMPH while I thought “hmm…I’ll go get ALL my autographed CJ books and see who else has endorsed him!” Cuz CJ is famous based on his own merits, ya know. I would have done the EXACT SAME thing!
It’s funny how people function in cults. Like little robots. Nobody told Chad to do that. But, because of his conditioning and brainwashing, he did exactly what every other properly brainwashed SGMer would do.
It’s pathetic really.
Sidney
February 8th, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Is it this Chad [last name edited] who posted this comment on Bob K’s “Worship Matters” blog?
http://www.worshipmatters.com/2008/10/01/glorious-and-mighty-choral-arrangment/
“16 | Chad
October 24th, 2008 at 2:36 AM
Bob,
Is there any video or audio of Glorious and Mighty with the ensemble from WG08 available? I searched YouTube like a maniac in search for it and wasn’t able to find anything. Please, oh please, tell me that something is available!
I praise the Lord for you Bob. I praise Him because He has given us worship leaders someone to point us who God is and what He has done through His Son by His Spirit! Thank you for seeing the Savior and knowing that it is He who provides the good works for you like the Scripture says in Ephesian 2:10.
[name & location edited]
February 8th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Not to be picky (well, okay, maybe), why do some sgmer’s call Jesus the “Savior”, like they don’t know Him by His first name?
Hey Kris, “Dudette” would be a more apt description. It is probably hard for some sgm men to comprehend that a woman could run this incredible blog, which would explain Chad’s mistake in assuming you were a dude. You go, my sister!
February 8th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
Canary said…
“As for sgm being charismatic, PDI once was, though it was well-balanced with the word of God. Changes were made in the church I attended without instructing the members. With these changes came more obvious control over our lives (confession of sin, etc.) and finances (a sermon correcting us on not tything properly – the pastor did blame himself for not “training” us better). Now I understand, finally, what was happening. They were moving from a balanced charismatic chruch to a reformed one. Without telling us. Like we were little kids. If they had been upfront and honest about the change in direction and what that would mean (I am speaking only of the church I attended), then my family could have made an “adult” decision about staying on as members. The final “leaving” wouldn’t have messed with our minds so much!”
Canary, you weren’t the only ones unaware of the “change in direction” at that Charlotte SG church. Lots of folks were unaware. Some of them finally realized the “charismatic” element was a thing of the past and left to help start up a new church…one that was charismatic (a newfrontiers plant). You would probably know some of the families.
http://catalystchurchcharlotte.com/
February 8th, 2010 at 8:19 pm
Well first of all, I want to say that I did throw away my copy of HUMILITY, along with 22 years worth of thousands of dollars of books.
I kept my pilgrims progress, the childs version, The way of the wild heart, by John Eldredge (the book I was not allowed to read or recommend at Sovereign Grace ministries) and of course my bible. And I bought a new one since then…A spirit life bible.
Second of all…the misuse of money has been alive and well here in the south.
I have a few questions for quizzler….
1. When the church gave did the pastor
a. Give also
b. Give nothing
c. Give generously out of the “new building fund” as if it was his to give with no accountability.
2. How many hours does a SR Pastor labor in a week, and who is he accountable to.
a. 40 or more like the rest of us
b. Upon ocassion
c. Sunday and a little during the week
3. How should a SR Pastor be compensated during this economy if the church should feel that the budget does not allow for an increase.
a. He already is over compensated for this area and certainly for the amount of work is done.
b. He should take an additional “day off” only working 4 days and being paid for 5.
c. No extra compensation is necessary.
I smell a big rat…
Chad, you are funny dude. You rock as a christian. Dude who is mentoring you through these prepubescent years? You see dude, you can’t beware the bewarers…Thats impossible dude. Get a wife, maybe she can teach you some manners….
February 8th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
“They were moving from a balanced charismatic chruch to a reformed one.”
um…..I’ve been in two Reformed churches (both PCA).
Reformed churches can be great, or they can be rather sterile. Just like any church, the atmosphere depends on the leaders and congregation and the present work of the Holy Spirit.
At any rate, SGM is Calvinistic instead of Arminian with regard to certain doctrines, but not Reformed. They can tell you they are Reformed until they turn blue, but they are not, nor will they ever be with the current polity. It is a major mistake for people here to equate them with being Reformed.
In both of my PCA experiences there was MORE life of the holy spirit, more dependency on God in prayer, and more of a sense of revival than when I was in PDI, sad to say. It is NOT about the doctrine of gifts ceasing or not, it is about the Holy Spirit being real and present and moving as we look to God in humble dependency and obedience and love. That is what makes a church good.
By the way, there are other gifts in scripture besides tongues and prophecy. A bit more emphasis on the gift of giving (to the poor) and the gift of mercy might not hurt SGM any.
Kris….”At least we can breathe easier, knowing that Chad’s not living in an illegally-rented basement.”
February 8th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
The last bit of this string has me singing “Dude looks like a lady”.
For those of you still in SG, that is a song by a rock group called Aerosmith. You would know about this band if you were permitted to watch SuperBowl half time shows or were part of the drug culture in the 60s and 70s like your leaders claim.
Carry on.
Former SG Pastor
February 8th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
5years,
I so know what you mean, about supposedly “cessationist” churches being more Spirit-filled sometimes than purported Charismatic churches.
Ours is like that, actually.
Also, you’re precisely right with how SGM is NOT “Reformed” in the way that they claim to be.
As our old friend Reformed Teacher used to say, “The Charismatics get to define what is meant by “Charismatic,” and the Reformed get to define “Reformed.”
SGM just does a nice slight-of-hand with their redefinition of terms. It’s quite a neat trick, actually, as there is a large group of people who are extremely restless and discontent with the way things are in their SGM churches, but they feel helplessly chained down because “no other church is both Reformed AND Charismatic.”
Sad. Neither is SGM.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
I am LMAO at all the comments to Chad. You all took the words out of my mouth and just made my night!
February 8th, 2010 at 10:09 pm
So why all the lying?
Ten years ago, why didn’t CJ just say “Okay…everyone that wants “charismatic” go with Tomczak; but me, I’m “reformed”…if you stay with me that’s what you get.”
Of course, I know the answer as to why he lied.
And Bob Kauflin’s “expressive/charismatic” style of praise and worship helped to keep everyone convinced SGM was still “charismatic.”
February 8th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Hehe…
Chad, I bet you’re wishing Kris had closed the comments earlier to that thread now!
February 8th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
“As our old friend Reformed Teacher used to say, “The Charismatics get to define what is meant by “Charismatic,” and the Reformed get to define “Reformed.”
She was a wise old gal!
February 8th, 2010 at 11:25 pm
FSGP -
Your #60 is hysterical.
February 9th, 2010 at 12:16 am
WOW Kris! Great response to our self-exalting guest who knows (unlike the rest of us uneducated fools) what is really going on in the Reformed world. Of course he would know because he goes to one of the best Reformed seminaries (and we don’t.)
God, I thank you that I am not like other men and women, non-seminarians, lowborn, stupid sheep, or even like this…. blogger.
Oh dear, I forgot to check with my pastor as to whether I should post here, and people like ME who are being led don’t know what they are doing, so I’ll just mimic….Chad. That’s normal, right? OK, enough mockery. Ya know what Chad, my pastor guides, he doesn’t prescribe, there’s a big difference. Loving recommendation vs. “You are an idiot, with no discernment, so I must protect you by restricting your access to the outside world and all the unsound doctrine which could assail you!” You know what? I don’t need my pastor to BE the Holy Spirit, because HE lives within me! Yes, new/immature believers may need more guidance, which then ought to look like loving advice…promoting discernment, rather than SG’s media blackout. I lived in the blackout for a long time, it’s prison. Dwell with us commoners a while, perhaps you’ll learn something from us (gasp.) Read.
February 9th, 2010 at 12:17 am
Hi Canary,
You asked,
I believe the answer to your question lies at the heart of the top-down leadership structure that SGM has adopted, which they claim is derived from the Godhead.
Rather than believing (as I do) that there is no hierarchy in the Godhead, SGM places the Son of God, Jesus Christ, in a position of eternal subordination to the Father.
Thus, Jesus Christ’s position in SGM is emphasized as that of “The Savior”.
Referring to Jesus Christ as “The Savior” is deliberate in order to build and maintain the false construct that there are levels of power in the Godhead, and therefore levels of power within the church & family.
From this basis, SGM assumes a top-down pyramid of authority, contrary to what is taught in Scripture.
February 9th, 2010 at 1:05 am
Kindred,
Thanks for the link. I’m going to check it out. Glad some of our old friends found a way out.
Clareon,
Thanks for answering my question. I have to admit, it hurts my bird brain trying to understand. To me, calling Jesus the “Savior” when referring to Him seems so impersonal. Is that intentional, I wonder? I remember the focus being so much on sin and so little about Jesus that we hardly heard His name used near our last days at pdi. Yet, the bible says that there is great power in the name of Jesus. Seems to me that means we should use His given name!
Kris,
When I was in the Fairfax church, we were essentially manipulated into committing to give a certain amount of money for a building program that none of us had any say in starting. The pastor had a trained specialist speak to us at a family meeting one night. He was a master of manipulation. We didn’t realize til later how we’d fallen for the whole thing. Some of the families, I remember, could not fulfill the number they wrote on their comittment sheet that night, including us. Others who paid off their offering were held up as model members. I hope this sort of thing doesn’t happen today. It was an unethical way to get money out of the saints, playing on their faith and emotions, and then asking them to give more than what they could, trusting that God would supply the money throughout the year (if I remember right, it was a year’s comittment of giving what you promised to the night of the meeting, above and beyond your tithe). It put terrible pressure on many young families.
I know that some workers are truly worthy of their wages, but Pastors who live off the sheep should be very, very careful.
February 9th, 2010 at 1:38 am
If I were still attending a SGc I would not give a nickel to SG until I had an explanation that satisfied me on the following:
1) why do we support Southern Seminary?
2) why do we give gifts to ministries like Ligonier?
3) why do we give rebates/gifts to churches on the Left Coast?
4) do all SG churches pay membership fees and if so how much?
5) when and where can I find 990s for SGM and SG churches?
6) the members in SG are often called to follow the example of SG leaders. Given that, how should a member interpret CJ’s example of giving to Southern Seminary?
Fellows, if you can’t answer my questions then you can’t cash my checks!
Blessedly not attending a SGc,
Former SG Pastor
February 9th, 2010 at 1:45 am
Kris, dude, don’t forget a modesty check!
Chad is 31, according to his mySpace page. Is this how 31 year olds talk these days? And allegedly educated 31 year olds? It’s interesting how Chad is full of judgment and assumptions about you, Kris — a “son” of the Father, no less, lucky girl! — while simultaneously claiming to forgive you. How does that work, that talking out of both sides of one’s mouth? There is either judgment OR forgiveness, not both. It’s telling that so far his comment seems to be a drive-by. He doesn’t want to engage. He wants to judge while claiming to forgive. I wonder, what does he need to extend forgiveness for? How has this blog or Kris wronged him? Forgiveness is extended to a person who has wronged you, not a blog that’s ticked you off.
Chad, wisdom and maturity — of which you should possess a modicum at your age — would dictate that you at least acquaint yourself with this blog before you judge its content, its author, or its commenters. To judge without knowledge is a little bit of foolishness, isn’t it?
I attended the SD church. I think I know who our dude Chad here is, but to be honest, all the various worship teams blended together for me. Uh, as did the music.
February 9th, 2010 at 6:20 am
Speaking of Chad, his age, maturity, and music…
This is going to seem mean, but how many of you saw/see a “burning desire” in a LARGE number of the SGM young men to play a guitar or set of drums with the dream of playing/singing/leading in a “praise and worship” band?
Just think about it for a minute. Think of how many young boys are in your church right now taking guitar lessons, sitting around playing, etc. Take some time to listen to their talk.
It’s odd to find so many.
I’m sure there are a few that are wanting to for the right reasons, but most of them remind me of young boys wanting to be “rock n roll” stars. It’s quite obvious it’s for “selfish” reasons – I don’t care how much they raise their hands and “express” themselves.
Call me judgmental, but I do have a set of eyes.
(It gets them up on stage and in front of the girls, too.)
February 9th, 2010 at 8:17 am
To be fair to Chad, he did post a very lengthy comment on an older post (“Normal,” And SGM). I closed comments there after I replied to him, just cuz I’ve been finding it too distracting to deal with multiple conversations.
So, he wasn’t a total drive-by.
Renee brings up a good point, which is that his comment in this thread was an odd combination of judgment with talk of “forgiveness.” Interesting.
But let’s give ol’ Chad a break. While I totally think he brought it on himself (by posting so pompously, under his full real name), I don’t want to make any more fun of him.
February 9th, 2010 at 8:25 am
Thanks Kris for the excellent intel! This information needs to get into the hands of every SGMer!
Matthew 10:26 “Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.”
February 9th, 2010 at 8:29 am
FSGP has some good advice for those of you still in SGM. Church finances shouldn’t be so vague and mysterious.
What I don’t understand is why SGM churches don’t have finances committees. Why is money the province of the
elderspaid staff pastors? After all, these guys are supposedly so super-spiritual that they can’t even have a glass of lemonade with their congregations without “watching over their souls.” Why would anybody believe that these soul-watchers would also be whip-smart with money? Wouldn’t that be like hitting the pastoral lottery, to be both able to sniff out sin in people better than they can themselves, but then also be “numbers guys”?How realistic is it to put the ultimate (literal) “buck stops here” power in the hands of guys who probably don’t have a lot of training or experience in finance?
February 9th, 2010 at 9:19 am
Hi Canary
You asked in post #69:
I do think it is deliberate and intentional because of SGM’s belief in the eternal subordination of the Jesus Christ, whom they call “The Savior” the majority of the time. SGM believes that there is a hierarchy of power and authority in the Trinity.
If you look at SGM’s logo, it shows concentric circles preceding from a center. I believe this issue is at the center of the debate. At the end of the day, our problems and concerns with the ministry MUST be rooted in Scripture, and herein lies the crux of the matter from which the problems in SGM proceed from.
Writing on this subject, Kevin Giles states:
The reason behind calling Jesus Christ “The Savior” is SGM’s way of subtly, subliminally and repeatedly enforcing the false concept of His eternal subordination (and keep Him stuck on the cross). This is what I believe, and it serves as the basis of the major Scriptural and doctrinal differences I have with SGM. It also why I find SGM such a deeply offensive *cough* Family of Churches.
February 9th, 2010 at 9:20 am
These links should have been included in my above post.
For further reading:
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/03/eternal-subordination-of-christ-and-of.html
http://www.ajmd.com.au/trinity/Giles_Adam.pdf
February 9th, 2010 at 9:45 am
I actually think SGM’s use of “The Savior” (instead of “Jesus”) is less about their belief in Jesus’ eternal subordination, and more about making Jesus some far-off figure defined mostly by His crucifixion.
It seems to me that “The Savior” is a distancing term, and not so much a term of subordination. “Jesus” is much more familiar…much more common…much more the way one of Jesus’ friends might have addressed or spoken of Him.
I think there may even be a thread of deliberateness about keeping Jesus at arm’s length – it reinforces the concept of leaders-as-priests, with the common people less able to hear from God and understand His Word.
And…
If you see Jesus mostly as your savior and not so much as a “friend that sticks closer than a brother,” then you’re going to remain focused on your position as a sinner, rather than as a saint and a joint heir with Christ.
I believe that who we are in Christ – once we believe the gospel and understand that Jesus has saved us – is one of being empowered by the Holy Spirit to live as SAINTS, with all the authority and power that goes along with being a child of the Heavenly Father. We who were ONCE afar off (not “STILL” afar off, but “ONCE”) are NOW brought NEAR through the work of Jesus. The finished work. Jesus did not remain on the cross. He rose again, and now He sits at the right hand of the Father, where He makes intercession for us. We have a high priest in Him. And we have a FRIEND in Him.
Yes, He is our Savior. But He’s (dare I say it?) so much more than that, so much more than some distant figure defined by only ONE of His roles. We don’t have to refer to Jesus as the distant “The Savior” – we can call Him friend.
February 9th, 2010 at 11:10 am
Please allow this to be entitled “In Defense of Dude Speak”
Hi Guys (as opposed to just saying hi to Guy),
In defense of Chad and fairness, please allow me a moment on top of the soap box of “culturally appropriate language”. (And I also ask for a great big dose of grace. You may need to be giving it to me by the time you get done reading. Trust me.)
My mini-thesis on Dude: In many parts of this country and among a few generations within our culture, Dude is a gender neutral terminology. For this reason, it is wrong to assume that Chad assumed Kris was a man.
Also, the use of this term in no way is exclusive to those in higher education nor to those illiterate among us. In other words, it is used as commonly by those without degrees as by those with several degrees and many silly, little letters after their names. It is used on the beach, in business, in academia, in homes and out in bars, among friends and with strangers, with family and with foes. Once again, Chad in no way showed his education, nor lack thereof in the use of it.
As to the referrences to Chad’s age (31 if this is the same Chad as some think) and his use of the word Dude, I am flummoxed. I know of few people over 50 who use this term regularly and I know of no one under 5 years old who use it, but between 5 and 50, it’s somewhat common as well as a socially accpetable word, whether or not you yourself choose to use it. I’m confused as to whether some commenters here think Chad is too young, or too old to be using it. (I can almost see some thinking he’s too young to be using it if those who think so are unaware of it being used as a somewhat “retro, ironic” terminology, but I don’t think there’s any reason to think of Chad as being hopelessly behind the times. Except for his having a myspace page. That would be the only indication we’ve seen, if indeed it is even the same Chad.)
So, as far as the pounding this poor guy took for his use of the word Dude, I stand beside him, strong and proud. As far as him being a bit of a wanker, he’s just like me and all the rest of us here who drank the koolaid at one time (which I know all of you agree with- this point just gave me a chance to say that I am not defending Chad’s words in general). I’m so glad that we eventually came to see the fruit of that Kool-Aid working its way through our systems, into our limbs and out through the ends of our fingertips, affecting everyone we touched with our acid hands.
I don’t like having the Kool-Aid drinking masses spewing their Kool-Aid stained vomit on us any more than the next guy (again, no reference to the big Guy), but I wonder if we can find some way to respond as a whole that says, “We disagree, and I think what you just spewed on us is poisonous and gross” but somehow do it without getting distracted by other things. I don’t know if it’s possible, because if you’re still busy recovering from the Kool-Aid you sure as heck want to do everything you can to defend yourself and others from its toxicity.
And I KNOW that I am as snarky as they come at times so it’s not like I think I know how to do it any differently or any better. It was just a thought that made me say “Hmmmm” and made me wonder if anyone else out there had any ideas.
Stunned
(at how long she wrote about the word Dude, Dudes)
February 9th, 2010 at 11:15 am
Hey, Stunned -
Dude, you know I love you.
But Chad also called me “bro.”
Now (sorry for the continual Seinfeld references), I don’t think he was meaning to insinuate that I’m a “Man-Zeer.”
He thought I was a guy.
You’re right, though, in that it’s not a big deal…EXCEPT that to me, it demonstrated rather clearly that Chad hadn’t read the site very carefully, or he would have picked up somewhere on the notion that I’m not a bro.
Or a Man-Zeer.
February 9th, 2010 at 11:21 am
Stunned, dude:
Is Kris a brother? Cuz that was another label Chad applied.
“Dude” was a minor, laugh-it-off offense. But when Chad rode his seminary/SG horse in and got dumped on his backend, well, that’s just too funny. The pedestal he fell off was of his own making and it wasn’t all that high.
I’m just sayin’,
Former SG Pastor
February 9th, 2010 at 11:48 am
ha ha ha ha. well, my bad. you can tell i hadn’t given what Chad wrote much weight. clearly i didn’t even read it closely! skimmin’, skimmin’, skimmin’ when it comes to unimportant stuff like spewing. forgive me, please. hmmm, now wondering if my friends who use bro only do so with men or with women, also. or do those who dod that say “brah?” oh, no. off to waste more of my imagination wondering about worthless things.
Stunned
but not over her inability to screw up
February 9th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Hon, if someone is indeed from San Diego, then people from Southern Cal say Dude all the time. (About as often as Southerners say Hon, in fact…
)
February 9th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Um, what’s a Man-Zeer?
February 9th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Stunned –
You do make a good point that “Dude” can span generations, and I’ve heard it used on women, too.
My issue with Chad was the apparent double-whammy of judgment and forgiveness and the he seems not to notice the utter disconnect of that combination. There was almost the appearance that he was forgiving a personal offense when none was given. He magnanimously announced he wouldn’t hold a grudge. For what?? (Moments after calling Kris a hypocrite.)
His thinking and logic are faulty and somewhat indicative of a much younger person than he actually is. Again, at least read the site for a while before you make willy-nilly pronouncements about it.
I’d be so curious to hear Chad’s rationale behind the judgment/forgiveness whammy. Either judge or forgive.
But don’t claim to do one when clearly doing the other.
February 9th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Luna Moth –
It’s from “Seinfeld.” It’s … uh … a bra for the well-endowed man.
February 9th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Luna Moth, like a brassiere for me. Bro-zeer. (I LOVE Hon.)
renee, I hear what you’re saying. You’re right, the whole forgiveness thing was pretty funny. As if Kris had offended Chad or had said anything about him whatsoever before he wrote that.
February 9th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
YIKES! I dropped the “n” from men. That was meant to read “like a brassiere for MEN”, not me. How embarrassing!!!!!!!!!!! My mistakes are cracking me up more and more. Maybe I oughta take my keyboard and go home…
February 9th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
FSGP — Love, love, LOVE the Aerosmith reference…(maybe 2 times??).
The SGM-speak thing is something I could never get into. It drove me nuts from the start. But in defense, in every church I’ve ever been in, I’ve noticed people adopting the “phraseology” of the pastors, etc. My observation, and others may have heard it differently, is that in the south, the more charismatic, more fundamental or less educated the congregations, you hear “Jesus”. The upscale churches will say “Jesus Christ” – and the frozen chosen will simply say “Christ.” In Catholic conversations, I hear “The Savior”, along with “The Blessed Mother”. And once again, here’s another direct link back to the Catholic upbringing of several SGM leaders.
Regardless, His name is Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Holy One, Emmanuel, Alpha and Omega, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Lily of the Valley, Bright and Morning Star, Master, Savior, Jesus — and Oh, how I love Him!
February 9th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
nickname,
FROZEN CHOSEN -ha!
Thanks Clarion and Kris for explaining your thoughts on sgmers saying the “Savior”. You both make perfect sense, and clear up this issue for me. I thought I read somewhere that Bob K. had worship leaders remove the word “Friend” from all worship songs. IF I heard right, I can understand better why he did so. Did someone here post that?
Continuing in my friendship with Jesus, who is EVERYTHING! Canary
February 9th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Hi Kris,
You said:
While this could be part of the reason, I think there is enough evidence to support my claim that referring to Jesus Christ as “The Savior” in SGM is more directly connected to their belief in His eternal subordination within the Trinity.
I’m not sure if you had the chance to glance at the articles I posted the links to, but if you believe what Kevin Giles says, those who are committed to the subordination of women are strongly committed to the belief in the subordination of the Son. There is overwhelming evidence of this practice in SGM. Therefore, I contend that the way SGM portrays the role of the Son (The Savior) has more to do with the emphasis on His subordination that is foundational within SGM than about using the title “The Savior” to characterize Him as a “far-off figure.”
February 9th, 2010 at 6:15 pm
I was thinking some today about SGM’s emphasis on their “doctrine of the church” and how they teach that Christians shouldn’t “date” the church, but rather be married to their local church.
I think we can all agree that the church is the Bride of Christ. As believers, we are all part of the church as His “called-out ones.” Each of us has the Kingdom of God within us because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
But the church is not God. The church is not Jesus. And the church is not the Spirit. Jesus prayed that we would all be one as He is One. But if we look at the history of the church, we see a tortured past. Throughout history, the church has often been the source of the abuse the Christian faith has suffered, and it’s no different today.
We want to think of the church as being a perfect place, a refuge from the world. We want to trust that what we are taught is always the truth. But the church has a long way to go, we have a long way to go, before she is without spot, wrinkle, blemish..or any such thing.
Come Lord Jesus! May Your Kingdom come and Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven!
February 9th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
As a woman who believes that the clear teaching of scripture is male headship in the home and church (not from inferiority but from wise divine creational order), and that the son Jesus willingly submitted himself to the will of the Father, let me only say…..
….watch out that you don’t throw out orthodox doctrine because of all the control and legalism in SGM.
The more I read this site the more I am convinced that the single biggest agenda of Satan concerning SGM, is to make people associate the corporation evils with certain doctrine, so they end up dismissing all of it.
The great truths of the creeds and the Reformation confessions, and a whole lot of books by old dead Reformed guys, are wonderful true doctrine. And just because CJ and his minions mentioned them is no reason to assume it is the root cause of the control. It isn’t. Patriarchy isn’t, and eternal submission isn’t.
The problem isn’t Piper or Grudem or Spurgeon or Sande or Duncan. The problem is the abusive controlling heart of CJ Mahaney and his enablers, and I ask you all to pray that you can keep the two separate in your mind and emotions. Cults use the bible and that does NOT make the bible a bad book!!!
February 9th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
a………..
You offered a very interesting quiz at comment 58 above. Compared to other churches I’ve attended, SGM churches have a much higher pastor-to-parishioner ratio. Preaching at only one Sunday service is also a luxury most other non-SGM senior pastors don’t enjoy. There does, however, seem to be grueling retreat schedule to which many SGM pastors are subject.
FSGP………..
You have also presented some very pertinent questions at your comment 70 above. Voting with one’s wallet is always an effective (and powerful) method through which to get SGM’s attention. After all, for a business like SGM “the bottom line is the bottom line.”
N.S.L.B.
February 9th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Hi 5years,
Believe or not, I understand where you’re coming from. Truly I do. I wish that you understood where I was coming from without thinking that I’ve just gone and thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
Like I said before, at the end of the day, what matters to me in all of this is the Bible. If I didn’t believe that the Bible spoke to the issues we confront in SGM, then I wouldn’t be here. What good is it to complain about SGM if there’s no Scriptural basis for doing so?
By the way, I couldn’t disagree with you more about ‘male headship’. And I trust we can agree to disagree.
Peace †
February 10th, 2010 at 1:38 am
Hey dudes (;p)
), and have 3 kids.
I guess that went to plan. Yes, that is my myspace page. I dedicated it to really horrible 80s-90s one-hit-wonder-stars. I think the last time that I went on it was in 2008, up until a few weeks ago. I got facebooked, so to speak. I am 31, have a wife of 8yrs (she’s stuck with me because I won’t leave
As for the “dude” comment, I knew Kris was a woman because I had emailed her twice and read almost every forum on the site. I am sorry for the bro references. One of my best friends is named is Kris, and so it must have confused me in the reply.
As for the post, it was highly sarcastic and meant to annoy. Sometimes when you post on blogs, you really think that something good is going to happen, and then you go back and read what you wrote and realize that it was pretty sucky.
Well, I…that was me. My post was rude, arrogant, and actually completely ass-like. Please forgive me for this. I didn’t take the pain and hurt that you all feel seriously. I didn’t consider who God is and what He has done through His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit. I didn’t prayerfully consider the way in which you have all been wronged by SGM in the ways that you have. I was very immature in my response and became what I hate the most: gentle-less and humility-sticken.
I interpreted the above post as you saying that Al Mohler and C.J. are in bed together. I thought that to be a pretty strong accusation of Mohler, a man who brought the SBC from complete destruction, to life. That’s my reply.
My first response sucked…please forgive me.
I actually didn’t sleep too much last night because of it. I spent a lot of time in prayer and the Lord showed me that I have a Savior complex (not the one talked about here with reference to “Jesus”). I think that I can save people with how witty I am, how awesome my arguments are, etc. I have always battled this. Again, forgive me for sinning against you all, especially Kris and Guy.
I attend the SGM SD church and [seminary name]. I hope that my stupidity doesn’t make the people there, that have worked hard to glorify God, look foolish for investing their time and lives into me. Normally, I just make jokes, read books while scratching my head, drink great beers, scotch, Jack, and smoke cigars/pipes.
It was wrong for me to judge you all without ever meeting you and knowing what you struggle with daily.
Please help me see what the truth is. I desire my family to follow the truth.
May the Lord bless us with the remembrance of who He is and how great our Savior Jesus Christ is by the power of His Holy Spirit,
Chad
February 10th, 2010 at 7:25 am
Hey, Quizzler -
Thanks for your comment and welcome to the site.
(I feel like you’ve been around here a long time, but I think that’s just because I’ve read your posts at SGMRefuge…I’m pretty sure this is actually your first comment here.)
February 10th, 2010 at 7:33 am
Kris………
You are correct. Thank you for the welcome.
N.S.L.B.
February 10th, 2010 at 8:00 am
Hi, Chad…
I’m glad you’ve come back, and thank you for such kind words.
I think you raise a legitimate question, which will also help us get back to the topic of the original post. And that is this:
Even though it’s stated at the top of the post, maybe some people missed that I was not the author of the article about CJ’s donations to the SBTS. Dee over at “The Wartburg Watch” wrote it.
So I can’t speak for precisely what Dee was intending to say, but in my mind, any time an individual or corporate entity donates a significant amount of money to an organization like a seminary, that donation is going to garner positive attention FOR the individual or corporate entity. At the end of the day, Al Mohler is only human…just like the rest of us. He’s no doubt accomplished some amazing stuff and blessed untold people through his ministry. But he’s ultimately still just another guy.
You know?
And, since he IS human, he’s going to sit up and take notice of someone who has donated more than $100,000 to the seminary he’s leading. Typically, a significant part of a seminary president’s job IS fundraising. So if Mohler is just doing his job, he’d be motivated to be on good terms with such a significant donor.
I think it’s a mistake to imagine that our favorite teachers/authors/Christian leaders are completely removed from all normal human thoughts and feelings. It doesn’t always have to come down to “sinful motivations,” either. It’s possible to believe that Al Mohler was influenced by money without reading anything especially negative into that.
I think it’d be odd, frankly, if Mohler was NOT influenced by CJ’s (and SGM’s) donations. It would mean that he was blowing off a significant part of his job as SBTS president – that of fundraising – if he didn’t care who gave what.
February 10th, 2010 at 8:25 am
Good for you, Chad. You are listening to the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth. Don’t **ever** let anyone tell you that you can not hear Him.