For our “Things That Make You Go Hmmm” file, here’s an excerpt from a post over at The Wartburg Watch (you can read the full article here):
When Joshua Harris assumed the position of Senior Pastor of CLC in 2004, C.J. Mahaney began an extensive campaign to advance SGM full-time. Since 2004, Mahaney has formed some important alliances with leaders of the reformed movement. Now C.J. shares the stage at various conferences with John Piper, Al Mohler, Mark Driscoll, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, and other Calvinists.
How did this “success story” happen? As far as we can determine, C.J. Mahaney was not well known until the release of his book Humility: True Greatness in 2005 and the re-release of Living the Cross Centered Life in 2006. Mahaney seems to have become an overnight success, although it was at least 20 years in the making.
How did C.J. Mahaney become so popular among reformed Christians? We believe C.J.’s secret to success is that he has friends in high places. Here’s what we speculate… We believe his recognition among the “Reformed Big Dogs” began when he befriended Mark Dever, Senior Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, in Washington, D.C. (a church not far from Gaithersburg where CLC is located). C.J. interviewed Mark Dever for 9Marks (a Mark Dever ministry) a couple years ago, and they established during that recorded conversation that they have known each other for 10 years. We believe that conversation took place in 2008. Ten years prior to that time would be have been 1998 — the year Mahaney and Tomczak parted ways. Hmmm……..
Mark Dever is directly connected with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) where he serves as a trustee. Again, mere speculation on our part, but we believe Mark introduced C.J. to Al Mohler fairly early in the Mahaney/Dever friendship because we have discovered that C.J. began making contributions to Southern Seminary in 2002 at the Leaders Associate level (annual gifts of $5,000 to $9,999). Both C.J. and Covenant Life Church (CLC) gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2003. From 2004 to 2007, C.J. gave at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts over $10,000), while CLC gave at the Leaders Associate level in 2004, 2005, and 2006. It appears the church did not make a contribution in 2007; however, C.J. contributed at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts over $10,000) once again in 2007. We haven’t bothered to check C.J.’s contributions for subsequent years. All of this information can be obtained from the SBTS Roll Call by following this link:
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf (use the same website address but change the year accordingly going back to 2003 to verify the above information). Remember that the Roll Call included in the Spring edition of the SBTS magazine is for the previous year. For example, the 2007 Roll Call is published in the 2008 SBTS magazine. The information is stored in a PDF file, so allow a few seconds for it to be retrieved.
In addition to the annual gift levels, the SBTS Roll Call includes the “Lifetime Cumulative Gift Levels”. On the 2005 Roll Call, C.J. Mahaney was listed as a “Patron Member” (cumulative gifts of $25,000 to $49,999). Check out page 45 at this link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2006Spring.pdf
Incredibly, on the 2006 Roll Call, Mahaney has quickly risen to the level of “President’s Council” (cumulative gifts of $100,000 or more). Check out page 43 at this link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2007Spring.pdf
That’s quite commendable, to go from being a Patron Member to a member of the President’s Council in JUST ONE YEAR! In order to accomplish this feat, C.J. had to contribute a MINIMUM of $50,001.00 in 2006.
Until the cumulative gift levels for the SBTS Roll Call are increased beyond the $100,000 mark, C.J. Mahaney will always be listed under “President’s Council”. In 2007 he gave at the Distinguished Associate level (annual gifts of over $10,000), so we know that C.J. has given a MIMIMUM of $110,000 to Southern Seminary by year end 2007. Here’s the link: http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf (C.J. is listed on page 36 for the annual gift and on page 43 for the “President’s Council”.)
How did he do it? Here’s our theory. Books can be BIG BUSINESS with the right endorsements! C.J. Mahaney’s book Humility: True Greatness is copyrighted in 2005 and includes this endorsement:
“This is the right book from the right man at the right time.” R. Albert Mohler, Jr.
When Mahaney’s book Living the Cross Centered Life was published in 2006, Al Mohler wrote the forward. Dr. Mohler’s endorsement begins as follows: “The book you now hold in your hands is nothing less than a manifesto for turning your world upside down . . .”
By following the money trail, we believe we have discovered the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. When a rather obscure charismatic (C.J. Mahaney) receives a glowing endorsement from a well-respected Baptist leader (Al Mohler), the results can be extremely profitable for both Mahaney and Southern Seminary!
My dear young brother/sister, could you please clarify?I can't tell, did you mean that sgm is too... 
February 16th, 2010 at 7:22 pm
AKS said:
“When folks like “R” come on the site it’s just evidence as to the nature of the beast. They’re simply the product of what SGM (or some ministry or teaching like theirs) produces.
It’s really quite amazing how consistent it all is. They all literally say the same thing. Sad.”
People in SGM have been so long taught SGM’s definition of what they consider “gossip” and “slander” that this becomes second nature to them and is if there is no question that what is done on these blogs is “gossip” and “slander.” In their culture, it gets to the point that questioning things is also labeled as “slander.” That is why they typically say the same thing.
These people also believe that leadership is open to correction or input. The leaders may even believe they are like this but as people report when one tries and effect legitimate change, SGM Leaders are rarely open to receiving it and at times consider the person bringing this up a “threat.” Until someone experiences this first hand then a member can still be under the illusion that leaders are approachable etc. when in fact they aren’t.
February 16th, 2010 at 11:03 pm
Ah, “Follow the money”.
So much easier than following the vocabulary.
Gossip = speaking the Truth
Slander = disagreeing
Gospel = ?????? (Still trying to figure that one out.)
Church = Gospel Center
(I haven’t begun and my head is already spinning)
February 17th, 2010 at 12:54 am
Wow, is this suposed to sound sinister, it sounds like CJ is a generous guy.
February 17th, 2010 at 7:21 am
Hi, Wishing –
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I don’t know that CJ’s donations to Al Mohler’s seminary necessarily make him sound “sinister.” But “generous” isn’t exactly the word that immediately leaps to my mind, either.
Sure, CJ can donate money wherever he wants (although it’s interesting that he would also appear to be donating SGM’s money, too…without, it would seem, a whole lot of open discussion or disclosure to the members of the organization, who were the ones who ponied up that money). But none of CJ’s apologists have yet to weigh in on the questions I’ve posed. So that we can refresh our memories, here they are again:
Anyone with any sense of both Southern Baptist and SGM history would understand how odd it is that a “continuationist” like CJ skyrocketed to relative fame with “cessationists” like Al Mohler and the other Reformed Big Dogs. Ten years ago, CJ was an unknown. Almost exactly around the time of his first donation to the SBTS, Al Mohler writes an endorsement blurb for CJ’s Humility book. Within a matter of a few years, CJ has donated at least $100,000 to the SBTS, a seminary where SGM pastors cannot even go for their primary training.
I think it’s kind of naive NOT to connect the dots.
February 17th, 2010 at 8:40 am
By now it’s easy to measure and weigh the things SGM emphasizes in their teachings.
There’s:
Submission to leadership
Members: Be a joy to Pastor!
Women: Dress modestly and be submissive
Men: Lead and inspect wardrobes
The Gospel: planting SGM churches
The Gospel Truth: everything SGM says
The Cross: The main thing
The Resurrection: What’s dat?
The Ascension: Never heard of it
The Holy Spirit: The leadership is full of it
The Holy Spirit: Be like your leaders and you will be full of it, too
The Father: CJ Mahaney
The Son: Carolyn Mahaney
Family of Churches: SGM Members who are grafted into the Mahaney family
And so on…
And so as no one notices the elephant in the room, SGM emphasizes:
Pride: You’re guilty of it, look at yourself
Pride: Look at yourself so you don’t notice it in us
Humility: We’re humble, you’re not
Humility: You’re not humble, we are, so do what we say
But have you ever heard SGM teach on:
Greed?
Manipulation?
Abuse?
Control?
Cheating?
Fleecing the sheep?
February 17th, 2010 at 9:59 am
Claireon, that was brilliant!
February 17th, 2010 at 11:03 am
Claireon #155 –
How about these?
“leave well” – leave when we want you to leave, if we want you to leave, and how we want you to leave; see also “yeti”, “loch ness monster”, and myth
“better than I deserve” – which is a whole letter better than YOU deserve
“greatest sinner” – I say it’s me but I know it’s you
“prophetic” – mean stuff I say about you
“gossip” – true stuff I hope you don’t say about me
“slander” – see gossip
“charismatic” – the way we were
“anonymous bloggers” – critics we fear we would lose if we tried to truly reconcile with them
Carry on,
Former SG Pastor
February 17th, 2010 at 11:33 am
the leaving well comment was the best! aha ha haha
February 17th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
I’m tellin’ ya, that whole “leaving well” thing is one of the most obvious signs that SGM has cultlike characteristics.
Seriously.
It starts to almost sound like gang membership – “blood in, blood out.”
A really good question for people to ask their pastors would be this one:
Could you give us some examples of people who have left this fellowship who, in your judgment, “left well”?
I think the pastors’ answers to that question would be very revealing. If they hemmed and hawed, then the truth would be clear – there really ISN’T a way to leave SGM “well.”
February 17th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Good stuff!
February 17th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Actually Kris, I think they wouldn’t have too much of a problem pointing to people who have, in their opinion, “left well”. It’s just that their prescribed way of “leaving well” is a very narrow, little box that not all of God’s plans for many of us fit in to. Their way of leaving well is not biblical though it may be better defined as extra biblical. You know, making up rules that are not in the bible, but telling people that it is.
February 17th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
I can think of 10-15 people, easy, who left my SG church in about 18 months before I exited leadership. This may not seem like many people but the church was small with an average of around 60-70 members (less than 60 voted on whether or not to join SG). All the people who left did so abruptly. Not one of these people “left well” according to the senior pastor. He had one or more deficiencies to report on each.
It used to seem that the only way you could “leave well” for any church was to move or die. An acquaintance from another church (not an SG church) put in for a transfer at work, received it, and then uprooted his family to move several hours away all because he didn’t want any confrontation with church leadership. I doubt that this would fly with SGM unless you moved from SGc to SGc. Seems like the only way out is death but they are probably working on that.
Kris, you are right; it is like leaving a gang in some ways. Oy.
Been spending most our lives living in the
Gangsta’sSGM Paradise …Apologies to LL Cool J,
Former SG Pastor
February 17th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Hi folks,
Here is some thoughts from a UK observer who first saw CJ in the early 1980′s in England. He was with Larry Tomzack at Dales Bible Week with thousands of charismatics. I mainly remember them being a funny double act who were perhaps moving into bigger things with the right people. So it’s no surprise that CJ has finally made it into the ‘big time’.
One thing today especially strikes me about his web blog, and I would value comments on my thoughts. He likes to interview ‘big names’ and I get the feeling this gives him credibility by been seen, as it were, mixing with such folk. Has any one else thought this? It sure is a good way of getting publicity too and hits to his blog.
A second thought is that when he speaks he has a ponderous style which is high on pedantic emphasis and over wrought emotion. Content wise he states the obvious and I am not convinced he has the depth he is credited with. Having listened to him speak, much of what I have heard him say could be said in a far shorter time. Anyone else think this?
And then he is contradictory when he says he understands cessasionists not agreeing with his charismatic posistion, and then states very clearly that spiritual (charismatic) gifts are ‘not optional they are esential’. My take on this is that CJ has very astutley found a way to embed himself in Reformed circles by claiming to be Reformed, but apart from his quotes of Reformed men I can’t see hardly any truly Reformed depth, in the classic sense, in his church or practise. CJ is not Reformed, and it needs to be discussed and made crystal clear that he is not. But his claims to be a calvinist (He isn’t) have got him a platform right at the heart of those who like to think they are Reformed.
Finally, CJ is part of the personality cult which is sadly very much alive today. If he dressed in a suit and wore glasses (nothing wrong with either, by the way) he may not have the street cred he has. His enthuasiasm has gained him many admirers, but somehow I still find the whole such speaker cult and it’s fan base deeply disturbing. And there is far better speakers, writers and theologians worth learning from than CJ. So folks, lets’s debate not just his giving to SBTS but the other isues like these I have raised, and let’s do it without the rancour which some have shown in this thread.
Love to all my brothers and sisters in Christ,
Paul.
February 17th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
“Leaving Well”
ahhh…yes….I savor the words. Because I looked in the eyes of my last SGM pastor and told him that I was NOT leaving well. That my faith was shaken to its core. That I was questioning many things and really struggling. That all of this started with the way the local apostle had handled things at our church.
What happened?
We were pretty much escorted to the door that day.
I remained in contact with some folks for some months. What happened? We lost those “friends.” Seems nobody wanted to associate with me because I didn’t know how to “leave well.”
Oh well. Today, praise God, I have reconnected with an old friend who has since left SGM. I am grateful. Not because we have left SGM and they have left SGM. But because there is someone out there who I can relate to. Who knew me back then and who still knows me today.
Thank you, Lord, for such gifts.
February 17th, 2010 at 11:45 pm
Hi, Paul -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I think your analysis is excellent!
February 18th, 2010 at 6:04 pm
Paul,
I have to echo Kris’ comment here, I too I think your analysis is excellent!
And hear in my head another echo: (from 2 Tim 4:3) “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; ..” NASB
Ya know, scripture is full of warnings like that because, those dangers are real. AND the ear tickling teachers are from the personality cult.
Thanks Paul, I appreciate your concise analysis.
Defender
February 18th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
clarion 155, FSGP 157……
I sat here laughing at my monitor. Thanks.
“And there is far better speakers, writers and theologians worth learning from than CJ.”
Yup. Once you have tasted great Reformed teaching, CJ is just, well, boring at best.
“CJ is not Reformed, and it needs to be discussed and made crystal clear that he is not. But his claims to be a calvinist (He isn’t) have got him a platform right at the heart of those who like to think they are Reformed.”
The word “Reformed” is so broadly used any more that he actually is within the camp that calls itself by that term. People like CJ think that if you hold to the 5 solas and TULIP (or even 3.5-4 points) you fit the word. Polity is up for grabs. And I don’t think they convey a sense of the great history we are part of from the Reformation on down…..Calvin, the writers of the Confessions, Edwards and the Great Awakening, early Princeton then Machen and John Murray and WTS, men like Lloyd-Jones who held the torch against liberal ecumenicalism and so forth. It’s all about SGM as the ones “doing it right”. So cultish.
February 18th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Excellent discussion….just wanted to throw in a quote from a new favorite author.
“During my college years I knew a man, before professing faith in Christ, was a notorious womanizer. James’ pattern was to seduce a woman and…lose interest and move on. When he embraced Christianity he quickly renounced his sexual escapades. He became active in Christian ministry. However, his deep idol did not change. In every class or study, James was argumentative and dominating. In every meeting he had to be the leader, even if he was not designated to be so. He was abrasive and harsh with skeptics when talking to them about his new found faith.
Eventually it became clear that his meaning and value had not shifted to Christ, but was still based in having power over others. That is what made him feel alive. The reason James wanted to have sex with those women was not because he was attracted to them, but because he was seeking the power of knowing he could sleep with them if he wanted to. Once he achieved that power, he lost interest in them. The reason he wanted to be in Christian ministry was not because he was attracted to serving God and others, but to the power of knowing he was right, that he had the truth. His power idol took a sexual form, and then a religious one. It hid itself well.
Idols of power, then, are not only for the powerful. You can pursue power in small, petty ways, by becoming a local neighborhood bully or a low level bureaucrat who bosses around the few people in the field of his authority.”
From Timothy Keller’s – Counterfeit Gods- pages 111-112 Dutton Publishing 2009
Anyway-loved the quote and thought it applied to some of what I experienced at SG.
peace-mm
February 18th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
Hi Paul,
I, too, appreciated your post and I’m glad you felt free to dive into the conversation. Sounds like you’ve been around long enough to be familiar with the flux and changes that have occurred over the years and understand how certain movements and people have weathered the storms.
Are you in NFI?
Anyway, I did want to remark on what you said at the end of your post. Bear in mind, that I do so in love, without wanting to get “into it” with you, or anything. You said, “…and let’s do it without the rancour which some have shown in this thread.”
When it comes to discussing SGM – with me anyway – you will find a bit of “rancour”, as you call it. I hope you understand. You weren’t in it for over a decade like I was, either.
You mentioned a “personality cult”. I go beyond that and just say “cult”. There’s just too much information available to those leading the movement to enable them to change horses and adopt methods and teachings that are in tune with the true gospel. But they have not, and continue to practice a “form” of religion that is not in keeping with the gospel: i.e. they are a cult.
Rancour? You betcha. I feel like David when he asked, “Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should taunt the armies of the living God?”
I was in SGM for way too long. It’s a harmful organization because of how it distorts the truth. There are those who remain in SGM who are comfortable there. But for those Christians who are being browbeaten by an unbiblical form of leadership which assumes headship over God’s people in place of Jesus Christ…
I ask you…
“Who are these uncircumcised Philistines that they should taunt the armies of the living God??”
Sorry, Paul…I just can’t be passive and all nice about this.
SGM needs to be brought down to the ground. Lowered. Humbled. Decapitated.
February 18th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
Musicman,
That was an amazing quote! Thanks for sharing it! It’s really helped me with something I’ve been thinking about in terms of CJ Mahaney…
First off, we know how good he is at creating subterfuges. For example, he talks about pride..writes the book on Humility…and then causes people to believe he’s humble.
In his youth, Mahaney was a drug pusher. People bought a substance from him that altered their reality, provided an escape, and kept them coming back for more. In order to sell drugs, he had to have an awareness of the effect drugs had on people, and knew how to keep them interested so that they would purchase more – from him.
Reminds me of the guy in your quote who got off exercising power over others. And isn’t it interesting, as well, how often CJ talks about “idols”!
You’re definitely on to something there musicman…
February 18th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
This is me throwing in a hug for 5years…
Thanks for your post #167 :-)
(((((5years)))))
February 18th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
This is also me throwing in a hug for stunned…
Thanks for your post #156 :-)
((((stunned))))
And this is also me throwing in a hug to all the survivors…
(((((((sgmsurvivors)))))))
I love you guys!
February 19th, 2010 at 8:15 am
Claireon said:
“In his youth, Mahaney was a drug pusher. People bought a substance from him that altered their reality, provided an escape, and kept them coming back for more. In order to sell drugs, he had to have an awareness of the effect drugs had on people, and knew how to keep them interested so that they would purchase more – from him.”
Claireon,
I knew about this, but I have just had an epiphany!
The way you have described C.J. has suddenly allowed me to see what’s truly going on in SGM. Instead of pushing drugs, C.J. is now pushing a deficient gospel, which isn’t the “REAL” gospel. He has created a dependency in SGMers by pushing “indwelling sin” – his current “drug” of choice. And it’s truly mind-altering!
Emphasizing ONLY Jesus’ death and not His resurrection is a HALF-TRUTH, and I believe a half-truth is always a LIE!
February 19th, 2010 at 8:34 am
I think CJ’s talk of the cross and the crucifixion seems so noble to a lot of people because in recent times, the average Evangelical church has typically neglected concepts like “penal substitution” and has shied away from straight talk about sin and the price Jesus paid.
Also, false religions like Mormonism deny the blood of Christ (symbolically, their “communion” ceremony uses bread and water). I was doing some reading about the LDS church just the other day, when I came across a quote by one of the recent Mormon presidents who was addressing the issue of why Mormon wards and temples do not display crosses. This guy totally dissed on the cross and the crucifixion, but he did it in such a way as to focus on the resurrection alone, pointing out that Jesus is no longer dead so why would we need to obsess over the cross?
When aberrant religions and even “kosher” Evangelicals would seem to make light of the cross, CJ’s grim focus can seem like a necessary correction. I totally understand why CJ’s message has garnered attention and a reputation for him.
And we have to acknowledge this – and give him credit where credit is due – before we can begin to explain how he uses his overemphasis on the cross to in effect do the very same injustices as those who de-emphasize it.
February 19th, 2010 at 9:13 am
Kris,
I appreciated your comment, and you have made some excellent points! I just worry when the cross is overemphasized. It almost becomes an idol.
February 19th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Claireon,
I DO so love it when you call a spade a spade!
February 19th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Claireon –
“People bought a substance from him that altered their reality, provided an escape, and kept them coming back for more.”
Absolute brilliance!! The world of CJ and SGM in a single sentence.
Thank you!!
(I am picturing all of SGMs little books and cd’s packaged in Ziplock bags.)
February 19th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Hi guys!
I’m not teaching any SGMers this year…and my anxiety level has decreased significantly, but still missed you.
I’m enjoying the conversation.
Stunned that CJ and CLC would give that much money to the SBC. What the heck? Maybe they consider it a missions field?
SGM is not reformed. SGM is SGM. Reformed churches hold to the Westminster Confession and have elder-led, congregationally-elected leadership. Congregationally chosen leaders would not put up with this garbage.
SGM is the most tightly controlled denomination around, except for perhaps the RCC.
The opposite of charismatic is not reformed. I worship in the PCA and have for decade.
SGM is simply….SGM. A hybrid–theology soup.
February 19th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Sorry, bros and dudettes, I am reading through this whole post….and am slow.
Chad, my brother, you said, “Mohler, a man who brought the SBC from complete destruction, to life…”
What the heck!???
1. Only Jesus does that.
2. The SBC is a fabulous denomination, who pours their time, money and lives into reaching the world for Jesus and his gospel. They are the blood bought bride of Christ, as are all of us here.
3. If you are learning at W. Seminary that the SBC was in complete destruction, and that the proper church government is a handful of guys empowered as apostles who tell congregations who to hire and what to give, you better get your money back immediately. You are being screwed, and so will your future church.
February 19th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
Dear y’all:
What is Wellspring? I’m hearing that name around Richmond recently.
February 19th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
RT!!
Great to “see” you again. I’ve quoted you from time to time –
February 19th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
RT -
Wellspring Church desires to do all things for the sake of the Gospel to God’s glory and our joy and proud to be a member of the family of churches known as Sovereign Grace. Our pastor is Sam Shin and we have oversight from Sovereign Grace from Pastor Steve Shank.
What are you hearing around Richmond?
Learn more about Wellspring at wellspringsg dot org.
Thank-you
February 19th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Thanks, info! I think we are talking about two different things/entities. There is a group meeting here in Richmond that is also called Wellspring. Is this connected to you?
Not to be a pill, but why does your pastor need oversight? Isn’t he trained? Wouldn’t the elders of your church be able to give him guidance, encouragement, refreshment and correction?
Secondly, a family of churches is defined by their independance of each other, but yet their mutual voluntary connection, like the Southern Baptists or the Churches of Christ.
SGM is a denomination: central leadership and appointment of pastors from a home office in Maryland. There is no central office in any of the other evangelical / reformed churches that assigns pastors to pulpits and takes them out without congregational assent.
That is an episcopal form of government, highly controlled.
Also, could you define the word “proud?” Thanks so much for your help on this! I truly desire to hear your thoughts on this!
Are you in Richmond? My impression that “our” Wellspring is not SGM related, but I might be wrong.
February 19th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
Kris, thanks, you make me smile!
February 19th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
This site is full of hate. How many commenters here have attended a SG church? If you are talking about Wellspring Church it must be good or you are making up more lies like this site and the SGM Refuge site likes to print. Can’t you find something more productive to do?
RT don’t you have better ways to find out information than from these bitter anonymous people? Or are you just like them?
Disgusting.
February 19th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
Hi Info!
Well, these sites must be somewhat entertaining, or you and I wouldn’t be on them, would we.
I have no hate, actually no emotion at all, about SGM. Only curiosity.
Instead of making ad hominem attacks and accusing people of hatred, would you do me the honor, and your church the honor, of answering my questions?
You are proud of your church, you admitted that. I merely am asking for information about your polity.
I don’t care how you do church…but am curious and asking you as a bro/dudette in Christ for clarification.
Thanks!
February 19th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
Hi, “info” -
Thanks for your comments, and welcome to the site.
First of all, I think it’s good to establish that most of the commenters here have been involved with SGM in some firsthand way, and many were members for YEARS. Some spent almost all their Christian lives in SGM churches. My husband Guy and I attended our own SGM church for a little less than a year. We never became members, although we probably would have at one point, if a membership class had been offered at that time.
Secondly, since you say that this site “likes to print lies,” I’d appreciate it if you could be more specific. What here is untrue? I am particularly confused that you’d say such a thing in a comment in THIS post, as what Dee published over at the Wartburg Watch – about CJ’s donations to Al Mohler’s organization – contains documentation from the SBTS’s own financial statements.
Thirdly, who’s to say that this site is not “productive”? And, even if you think what we’re doing here is unproductive, you’re engaging in a faulty leap of logic to decide that participation in these conversations means that this is ALL we do. I personally have a very full, productive life, and I’m aware of lots that the other commenters do in their non-blogging time.
Finally – why the little dig at all us “anonymous” people? Isn’t that a bit silly of you, considering that you yourself are participating here under the handle of “info”?
I mean, unless you’re like Elvis or Cher or Madonna or some other one-name celebrity (who doesn’t even bother to capitalize his name), it seems to me that “info” probably isn’t your full legal identity.
February 19th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
No “info” – the whole site isn’t full of hate….it’s just me. That’s the way I roll….
February 19th, 2010 at 11:37 pm
RT -
Why don’t you visit a Sovereign Grace church and find out for yourself what it is like? There is a Sovereign Grace church in Midlothian near Richmond that is pastored by Gene Emerson. Pastor Emerson also serves Sovereign Grace by overseeing other churches in our family of churches in that area. Try it, you might like it.
Others -
If anyone wants to know why I would be anonymous, just look back on this site and at SGM Refuge (we are a refuge) and see what happened to a commenter named Chad [Last Name] recently. This man serves at [Church Name/Location]. He was treated very badly on these sites for speaking truth. He shared observations from his heart and look how you all responded. Light shined in the dark causes discomfort to sinful eyes.
It is so easy to make fun of Pastor Mahaney, Pastor Josh Harris, and others who are doing God’s work. Why is it your concern about what Pastor Mahaney gives to further good things? Yes, I do call him CJ because he is a humble man, but I can call him Pastor out of respect. You all should do the same.
Make all the fun that you want. That is the way of the proud and arrogant.
February 19th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
“info” -
It wasn’t Chad’s use of his full name that netted him the responses he got. It was simply the silly stuff that he said.
I agree with RT – it’d be great if you’d engage and actually answer her questions. Set aside your accusations of sin and your blathering about calling Mahaney “Pastor,” and deal with the issues.
Also, you should READ what people have written. It sounds kind of kooky for you to tell people to attend SGM churches when many of our commenters have spent more years in SGM churches than you likely have.
February 20th, 2010 at 12:01 am
Info,
I am NOT asking about SGM churches. I know more than you do about them, and more about Gene and Kingsway than you can possibly imagine. I treasure good church government, stable theology and a well educated pastorate too much to explore SGM.
I was asking the people on this site whether anyone knew anything about Wellspring here in Richmond. It was simply curiosity, as many of the MANY people who have left Kingsway lately are going to whatever-Wellspring-is.
(Funny–our PCA women’s study is also called Wellspring, it is such a common name that I needed to ask for specifics here in Richmond.)
Why are you so intent on getting me to come to SGM? I am happily ensconced in my church. We do missions and service to the poor and tutoring for immigrants. We train our pastors for years instead of months. I like it.
Just be, my sister/brother. I wasn’t attacking you!
But I’d still love you to answer my original questions, like I have yours.
February 20th, 2010 at 12:06 am
Just a thought, Info.
I suspect you are coming from a Southern Baptist or Pentecostal background, aren’t you?
People in SGM don’t call their pastors Pastor. You probably haven’t picked up on that, since I suspect you haven’t been SGM for too long?
Please forgive the conjecture, but I’m just guessing.
SGM has a very specific language that no one else in Christendom uses. I see you’ve picked up on the “family of churches” idea, but you are not a “family of churches.” You guys are more of a denomination than any denomination I know of.
Peace to you, my brother/sister. I meant no disrespect, I just thought you would be able to answer my questions.
I always ask the same questions, but never get an answer. SIGH. Maybe next time.
I feel so very sorry for you. But I won’t call you names, like you have me and my friends here.
February 20th, 2010 at 12:15 am
Hi Info! Some of us are VERY familiar with the SGM church and pastor you mentioned, and participate on this site BECAUSE of long histories with said church and the “overseer”. I wish them well from the bottom of my heart and remember many wonderful things. That, however, does not excuse or correct the polity problem that, in my view, causes and enables the controlling nature of SGM.
RT — I’ve heard of the Wellspring group meeting in Richmond, on Friday nights, if I’m remembering correctly, but don’t know where. From what I understand, it is not an actual church at this point. The person who told me about it has been blessed by attending. So, RT — Stony Point, Sycamore, All Saints, West End? From what I understand, there are ex-SGM’ers in several. And former PCA’ers in K’way. Interesting.
I SOOOO appreciate your definition of denomination / family of churches. Thank you.
February 20th, 2010 at 12:53 am
info
Now, I’ve been meaning to do that for a while. Just so happens you made me run for the bucket…
Well at least T iger W oods stood up and gave somewhat of an “i’m sorry” Pastor C J s sins are worse..(he’d tell you that himself), and he is wayyyyy to humble to ever admit he’s wr…wr…wroo….wroo
WRONG. (Authur Fonzerelli from happy days…)
And as for me…stunned, you really made me cry with your post at refuge, on joining the church. Thank you for writing that out. a
February 20th, 2010 at 1:39 am
Kris -
At least Info didn’t call you dude or bro.
Info –
Come on in. Have a seat. Comfy? Good. First, as others have kindly pointed out, read a bit more here. Second, consider eliminating caffeine after noon time. Finally, read some more. You may leave now. Please don’t trip over A’s bucket on the way out.
Until next time,
Former SG Pastor
PS – Info, you don’t have to call me Former. Just so you know.
February 20th, 2010 at 1:59 am
FSGP -
Actually, I think “info” should call you Pastor Former.
February 20th, 2010 at 2:08 am
Info-
Welcome to the board…but I wonder why you’re hanging around the survivor sites?
peace-mm
February 20th, 2010 at 8:52 am
RT, it’s so good to have you back!
I’m ready for some warmer weather so my pansies can perk their little heads up and start blooming again. It’s been WAAYYY too cold here in the South!!
I’m with you. I’m guessing “info” comes from a Baptist or Pentecostal background.
FSGP, I like Kris’ “Pastor Former” suggestion.
February 20th, 2010 at 8:58 am
RT,
hiya!!!!!
good to see you!
February 20th, 2010 at 10:44 am
A, thanks for showing in pictures how I feel about this site along with SGM Rejects and Wartberg Witches. RT, FYI I’ve never been in a Southern Baptist or Pentecostal church. Wellspring has many members who came to the US as young children or are 1st generation and were taught to respect pastors. This is easy to do when you have men who care for your souls. I called my pastor either Pastor Sam or PSam. Let me ask you how you would address John Piper, Mark Dever, or Ligon Duncan? Would you address them differently than you would CJ Mahaney? There may be some truth on this site but it is mixed with so many lies and so much bitterness that I don’t think any of you can tell what is real. Former SG Pretender I doubt that you were a pastor at any church. I know a real former SG pastor and he left his church quietly and honorably and he is far too classy to engage in the cry baby activity that goes on here. Don’t bother posting replies because I doubt that I will waste time coming back here. A real SGM Survivor is one who has survived the ups and downs of this life and thrived because of the wonderful family of churches and the pastors who serve them so well. You all are more like SGM Saboteurs.