[Kris says: Commenter "That Bad Dog" (you can check out his blog here) came back and shared more of his thoughts about Jeff Purswell's explanation for what Sovereign Grace Ministries means when they claim to be "essentially Reformed." You can see the first part of his analysis here.
Thanks, "That Bad Dog"!]
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3. “Because We Say So!” (Confusing assertions with proof)
In Purswell’s article What does it mean to be essentially Reformed?, “Reformed theology” is reduced to the idea that God is sovereign and we should glorify him. These are great truths, grand truths even, but they are hardly a historic definition for what “Reformed” means.
To justify rejecting/ignoring/minimizing most of what is actually Reformed doctrine, Purswell/SGM plays two cards: 1) the “it’s not biblical” card, and 2) the “it’s a human system of theology” card. Which brings us to-
That Bad Dog’s 3rd Axiom of Theology: “The less actual evidence is given that a doctrine is biblical (or not biblical), the more likely it becomes that the claim will be expressly made.”
In practice this often means that the only argument given for the biblical nature of a doctrine is the speaker or writer/s claim that the doctrine is biblical!
This is to confuse assertion with proof, or, as I like to call it, the “Because we say so” argument.
Let’s say you were arrested, brought before a judge, and charged with a crime. Before you can say a word, the judge says, “having found you guilty of this crime I sentence you to 20 years hard labor.”
You might say, “Hey, wait a sec, there was no evidence!”
The judge says, “To the contrary, the prosectution has stated that you committed this crime.”
You say, “No, but seriously.”
The judge says, “The prosecutor is a man of great integrity, chosen by God himself to pursue this high calling, and would never allege something that wasn’t true. We trust him. You are guilty.”
Sound like a Kafka novel? It’s done all the time, in pulpits.
Countless sermons run something like this:
1. Tell joke or funny story.
2. Make assertion about doctrine/behavior (“The Bible says…”)
3. Reference one or two of out-of-context verses, or say something like “this is what Paul meant!”
4. Raise voice. Repeat assertion. Say how important it is to believe assertion.
5. Tell story about terrible/great thing that happened to someone who did/didn’t believe assertion.
6. Cry.
7. Threaten (sorry, I mean exhort) audience saying you “watch over their souls as someone who must give account”, they “need to submit to those God has placed over them.”
8. Conclude with prayer.
This frequently works on evangelical audiences for a specific reason.
We regard the Word of God as the source of truth. We are taught, correctly, that the Word of God is the ultimate source for doctrinal truth. Being “unbiblical” is a bad, bad thing. Too often, men are able to take a shortcut right through the thinking bits of our minds, simply by using this language. It immediately puts you on the defensive for a host of reasons.
But, saying something is or isn’t biblical is not the same as proving something is or isn’t biblical. Saying it loudly, with lots of hand gestures; saying it with pleadings or warnings; saying it sincerely with tears; none of these make you more likely to be right, or entitle you to be believed.
Getting back to Reformed theology, and the SGM redefinition. The men who wrote the Reformed confessions were not sitting around trying to come up with new doctrines to add to the Bible. The minutes of the Westminster Confession debates are a remarkable record of how closely they examined every word they wrote, down to the prepositions. These men feared God, and feared to teach something He had not revealed.
Now, that doesn’t mean they were right about everything, or anything, for that matter. But, to simply dump the bulk of Reformed theology, while claiming to be Reformed, with no explanation or proof other than “it isn’t biblical”, is absurd.
4. Systematic Theology is from Mars
The other card played goes like this, “We reject ‘X’ (usually some part of TULIP) because it is a ‘merely human’ system of theology.”
This is a silly argument.
a. It is a false representation of Reformed theology, pretending that it consists only of extended chains of logic, rather than specific interpretations of Scripture. As if Reformed theologians mostly reason out their ideas from theological premises, rather than studying the Bible and trying to understand its teachings. People who say this have often read little or no actual Reformed theology, which makes me highly suspect of SGM-ers making this claim.
b. It falsely implies that the theology held by the one making the claim is a “divine” system (once again, with no proof whatsoever, naturally). But unless you are claiming direct verbal revelation, every doctrine you believe is an interpretation of the meaning of the words of Scripture. A human interpretation. Even if you say, “I only believe the actual words of Scripture,” there is no escape. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved!” OK, but what does the word “believe” mean? What about the word “saved” or “Christ” or even “on”?
Of course, our human belief may and should, and some day entirely will, align with the truth of God’s word. But trying to cleave a distinction between a so-called “human” system of theology, and your own “divine” one, is a merely a bad bit of misdirection.
All this leaves us with a final question. SGM seems at pains to distance itself from a great deal of the actual content of creedal Reformed theology, while at the same time appropriating the Reformed badge. Why?
June 25th, 2010 at 10:56 am
Interesting discussion (I love theology). I’m personally working through the “balance” of it all in my life right now.
I like what you said, RT.
For some reason I tend to get caught up in the “studying” and “how to” moreso than the act and pleasure of just loving (God). The actual interaction with the one we love is so important. I will read book after book on theology, but fall somewhat short when it comes to actually taking the time to fellowship and interact with God. What good is it for me to know all about Him if I don’t actually “know” Him?
I’m sure it sounds crazy, but I find myself in an either/or situation many times and I’m not sure why.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Sorry guys, I really wasn’t out ot hurt anyone. I have just seen the love of theology do so much damage in the body of Christ. So many people I know who love theology often end up lsoing their love of God in the search of the intellect. I have seen it do much damage and lead many away from the love of God toward the love of the study of God.
There is something satisfying in the study of theology/God/religion that seduces/lulls one into thinking that they are a) correct and b) closer to God because of the knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, love builds up.
In my opinion (not worth all that much, don’t worry) theology is one of those things that are most effective in leading people away from God himself. Having all the resembelance of God, it’s easy ot get distracted by the study of Him instead of actually hangin’ with him.
Not to mention all the wars, famines and violence that theology has borne in our world. all the hate the misuse of theology births is sickening. (And let’s face it, we’re human. We are GREAT at misusing anything, especially the study of God.)
I don’t know, but when I look at the bible, what stands out most to me is not some verse on studying God. What He Himself tells us he wants for us, (what I think some guy called the GREATEST commandment) is to love the Lord our God and after that to love our neighbors.
Now I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be studying theology. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t enjoy theology. And I’m not saying theology is bad. But if you’re going to exclaim something to the world on the bumper of your car, I don’t get why your heart would go to theology and not to the one you’re studying himself. He’s sure as heck a whole lot greater than the love of Him.
At the end of the day (or rather eternity), you’re not going to get up to heaven and have Him ask you to open your notebook and tell Him everything you’re learned about Him. No. He is going to look at you. Tears of joy in His eyes. Arms stretched out wide. He will run to you. And you to Him. He will embrace you with a hug so glorious you could never imagine. He will hold you so tightly that your hearts merge and you experience His love flowing through your very being. He will LOVE you. Love you. LOVE you. It will be unlike and greater than any two lovers seperated for years.
Might as well enjoy that kind of relationship here and make sure our hearts are loving Him, not the study of him. (But enjoy it all you want, just make sure it doesn’t lead you away from Him and your first love, as it so often can*.)
*Keep in mind, I know way too many theologians and they- as a group- can be the least loving group of individuals. Part of the reason I adore RT so much. This chick seems to have PERSPECTIVE and LOVE. She hasn’t seemed to have gotten lost in the headiness of theology. Not saying any of you have AT ALL. Just that I know too many who have left their first love, but not seen it because instead of shooting drugs in a back alley, they’re shooting each other in a library.
June 25th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Opps, I left out a word or two so this sentence didn’t make sense. Please forgive. I said, “But if you’re going to exclaim something to the world on the bumper of your car, I don’t get why your heart would go to theology and not to the one you’re studying himself. He’s sure as heck a whole lot greater than the love of Him.”
I meant to end that with, “He’s sure as heck a whole lot greater and more worthy of love than merely the study of Him.”
Stunned
June 25th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
I study a lot of theology, but I’ve made a rule for myself. For every chapter of theology I study, I read two in the bible. I love theology, but I took spurgeon seriously when he said that theology isn’t to be used as a substitute for Gods word.
June 25th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
In regards to theology – a couple of thoughts which may or may not be accurate but it does give another perspective (which will probably not be very popular). (1 cor 8:13).
Bible colleges and seminaries traditionally have majored teaching theology/Bible knowledge/philosophy. They reinforce the clergy laity separation. Unfortunately, theology is more about knowledge than knowing (application). I will say that most pastors/teachers that I have seen through the years (of which there are many) it is not about equipping the saints but impressing the saints (or sinners depending on how they see the church) with what they know not Who they know. Too many teachers/preachers are teaching other teacher’s messages rather than the revelatory word emanating from their personal intimacy and walk with Jesus. Their messages are geared to building ‘their’ church not advancing the kingdom of God (Matt 24:14, Matt 16:18)
I personally love the word the God. It is the gateway to the heart of God as He reveals Himself to me in a personal way. I also love God’s word because it reveals God’s plan for mankind and His plan of reconciliation, reconciling to Himself that which was lost at the fall (Matt 28:18-20). It is the most exciting book on the planet (and I love novels) because it is life not death, liberty not bondage (truth shall set you free), and an adventure because it is alive!! Theology is a dead in this ‘sense’ – it was someone else’s manna put in a form for others to eat but it doesn’t have the same life now that in did when it was given by God at that time. I think God’s people want to hear what Jesus said not what someone else said about the scriptures (by that is just me).
To the leaders – one more word with respects to theology and leadership – being a pastor isn’t about you and your ministry but the laying down of your life to equip others for the work of the kingdom and their ministry. It isn’t about impressing people with what you know and how skilled you are a saying it but serving those who God has place in your care. How much of Jesus impartation was exegetical teaching and how much was Him relating and loving people?
Just my two cents!!
June 28th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
“You lose the wonder and joy of pastoral ministry,” Mahaney said. “You find yourself serving under compulsion, not willingly serving. You wonder what it would be like to do something different.” — C.J. Mahaney
I strongly encourage him not to serve under compulsion, and to follow that fantasy, by doing something totally different – beginning immediately.
June 28th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
It’s silly (and arrogant) for ANYONE to think they have the greatest or most noble job on earth (other than Jesus). The most noble thing one can do is to do what God tells them to do when He wants them to do it.
I’ve found that often times God uses our restlessness as a tool to move us on, if only we will listen. Could it be that God has seasons for all of us and that maybe this wondering what it’s like to do something different is a leading of the Lord. That is often where He begins His work- in the thoughts, the ideas. Maybe some people shouldn’t be so quick to crush it, ignore it, stifle it or push it down.
June 28th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
June 28th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
pdiwho, i’m not sure what you are saying in your last post.
Would you please expand on it?
June 29th, 2010 at 4:36 am
Sorry stunned wasn’t directing that at anyone. Well I was thinking about something when I did it and then forgot I did it. Anyway I was thinking about what C.J. said. I fear all to often that people who aren’t called to the ministry are there and those that need to be don’t get a chance. Pastoring isn’t a job its a calling. I think in sgm and other churches its often a lack of a calling that leads to most of the problems we are seeing today. This like I’ve stated before goes back to the real issue are we telling people to live like us, or are we pointing to Christ. It’s almost like people have lost the core foundation some where. I know I did for years I wondered what was wrong with me then it hit me. I was missing the most important part. Christ freed me from my sin and declares me righteous. All the self deprivation teaching in the world can’t teach that. It has to be realized by faith. sgm doesn’t have preachers they have admitistrative boards that pass judgements. Sorry if that offends u. But I see truth in what cj says and I say if you feel that way u need to leave.
June 29th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
Both truth (Biblical doctrine and teaching) and love (grace through Christ) are important.
Beware the emergent church movement which has thrown Christ and Biblical doctrine clear out the window. That is the ditch many who are turned off with doctrine are falling into.
As I see it SGM borrows doctrines from a smattering of different belief systems, while minimizing Christ as the focal point of the church. They use the lingo, but the application is lost. The lingo is “The Great Oz” and that’s all MacArthur and others are seeing right now. One day I pray they look behind the curtain.
June 29th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
pdiwho said:
“Pastoring isn’t a job its a calling. I think in sgm and other churches its often a lack of a calling that leads to most of the problems we are seeing today. This like I’ve stated before goes back to the real issue are we telling people to live like us, or are we pointing to Christ. It’s almost like people have lost the core foundation some where. I know I did for years I wondered what was wrong with me then it hit me. I was missing the most important part. ”
Early in the group’s existence the leaders would say that they were called to recognize and not organize. That is they were to recognize someone’s calling to leadership. Even if a person was a good fit there still needed to be a call. Unfortunately the group has moved away from this type of thinking where the leaders seem to organize for themselves depending on “gifting” and forget that they need to look for and appoint people that God has already called.
July 5th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Hi folks…
I was a member of CLC for many years and if I used my actual name many would know me. I was very involved, served like I was taught, and still have many friends there (of course many are still unaware of what goes on behind the scenes).
I had not been to this site in years and earlier today I was somehow on a CJ Mahaney link which led me to do a Google search on his name… which led me to this site. I found Noels Story which INFURIATED me.
This incident occurred after I left, but Holy Mother of God…. I was just appalled. Grizzly is a better man than I am because I told my wife I would have had to do some time after I was done with that kid (and yes I am a strong Christian and not just a loose cannon). I believe in forgiveness, but I have pretty much ZERO tolerance for child abuse, let alone the rape of an infant child. In fact, had I been in the church at the time, I might have just “accidentally” decked the kid once to put him in check. I am sorry that he had a bad upbringing, but I am 100% confident he knew he was wrong. Frankly any pastors involved in that cover up should get a good punch in the face (maybe there is a ministry for Todd Bentley after all?). For those that don’t know, Todd is a raving lunatic (former) false prophet who used to say God told him to kick people that came up for prayer (and he eventually left his wife for his nanny, so you see the fruit of his ministry, right?)
So there are some issues with SGM leadership. The interesting thing is that in this video I found, CJ himself states (and I quote) “I am CJ Mahaney… I am the worst sinner I know.” So tell me why people are surprised at what they see if the ministry is led by such a great sinner? Listen for yourself: http://www.baller21.com/2009/10/pastor-athlete-c-j-mahaney/ The Word of God says “As a man thinketh in his heart so is he” (Proverbs 23:7) It sounds like CJ needs some renewed thinking. He needs to speak the promises and goodness of God over himself so he has the spiritual authority that we ALL have in Christ (not just pastors and their appointed leaders).
I am a man redeemed by the sacrificial blood of Jesus. I am not perfect (meaning that I sin like everyone else) but I am not “the worst sinner I know” (those would be the unrepentant sinners). What a horrible thing to consistently speak over yourself? It actually is a slap in the face to the God who sent His Son to pay the price for our sins.
The Father’s heart is grieved by the actions of evil church leaders that have hurt his children. I am thankful that I am not accountable as these shameful leaders are.
Blessings and love to all of you.
…Dex
July 5th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
Not sure how far the news has spread, but I received word that Sono Harris passed away this morning. Let’s all be sure to keep the Harris family in our thoughts ands sympathies, and especially her young son.
July 5th, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Hi, Dexter -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I think you make a very good point about CJ and his constant harping on his own “worst sinner” status. You’re right, it’s shouldn’t be particularly surprising that someone continually proclaiming that he’s the “worst sinner he knows” would end up leading an organization that is messed up.
But actually, I think all that “worst sinner” talk is a rather clever way to both seem excruciatingly righteous (“I walk so closely with the Savior that I’m THIS acutely aware of my own failings”) and also have a get-out-of-jail-free card when confronted with wrongdoings.
Lately I’ve found myself thinking about the many things SGM leaders say and do that almost seem intentionally designed to – in the end – enable them to hold onto their control over people and maintain their own authority. The “worst sinner” chatter is one such gambit. Another is teaching people to “believe the best” about others, particularly their leaders. A really interesting observation is that even as SGMers are trained that it’s WRONG to speculate about a pastor’s motives or to make inferences about a pastor’s intentions based upon his actions, SGM pastors don’t seem to be trained to return the favor.
Although in recent times they’ve been instructed to be less obvious about it, the typical response from an SGM pastor when confronted about something questionable is to turn the conversation back around to the topic of the questioner’s heart and motives. And this is a fascinating tactic, because if you really think about it, the pastor/leader is doing precisely the thing he trains others NOT to do – he’s making an “uncharitable judgment” about his questioner, by suggesting that the questioner is probably asking out of sinful motivation, or at least mixed motives. Yet unless the questioner has really steeled himself against this sort of diversionary tactic ahead of time, he will most likely find himself derailed, as he spirals down the road of self-doubt. This is especially true in the SGM world because of its “leadership caste system,” where pastors are basically untouchable, except by those in authority over them.
But the bottom line? Whether it was done by design or not, SGM leaders have many catch-phrases (“I am the worst sinner I know” being one of them) and many tactics (“Believe the best! Except when it’s ME believing something about YOU when you’re making me uncomfortable…”) that enable them to hold onto their power. It all strikes me as a bunch of subtle mind games.
July 5th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Dexter — Great points expecially on what comes out of CJ’s mouth. Either he really believes he is the worst sinner he knows or he doesn’t (I don’t believe he does as he would have disqualified himself rather than firing all the pastors they let go).
And I get the ‘physical’ discipline to abusers and those who cover it up. I had to wrestle than one on a personal level.
What I don’t get (as a former PDI pastor) is why is there such an emphasis on authority, rule and control rather than care, serving, love and laying their lives down for the sake of the sheep?
The Bible says that self-serving shepherds will destroy and scatter people, leave people unattended (not cared for, comforted and strengthened), feed themselves while people are hungry, look to build and protect their own image and prosperity at the expense of the people, the broken go unhealed, they will dominate people not serve people, and people will be weakened becoming vulnerable to the beasts of the field.
Yet shepherds after God’s heard will produce people who are well fed and cared for, they will be fruitful and multiply, not be afraid or terrified of their shepherds, none will be missing (rejected or ostracized), they will be strengthened, healed and comforted, the lost will be found and restored, and people will received fresh water and rest.
You will know them by their fruits (Matt 7:16, 20) — (how about MLC and Chesapeake?)
I am preaching to the choir – but your comments made a worthy and good post! Thanks!
July 5th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
kris,
yes yes yes yes yes yes exactly yes yes yes!!!!
well said… You found the words for what happens!!! Yes!! This is a great heads up to anyone reading. What you said is exactly what happens. Over and Over all the time. I want to say to a pastor “If I leave here and evaluate the motives of my heart…. when you leave here, do you evaluate the motives of your heart? When and if you realize you had a sinful motive, that became an action…Do you go back to those injured and ask forgiveness????
I didn’t think so………please God, won’t one of those pastors please see what they are doing and confess to the sinful legalistic teachings and manipulations that continue to occur…in Jesus name amen
July 5th, 2010 at 8:50 pm
Dexter
I would also say you made some good points.
I doubt you agree with Mahaney but with regard to “worst” or “chief sinner” status that Mahaney seems to always like to almost boast about I don’t think Paul was talking about his current state. I believe Paul was referring to his past life that included persecuting the Church. Paul wasn’t saying that when he wrote the letter that he still considered himself the worst sinner. IMO that would be Paul denying God’s grace to change someone.
Sometimes I wonder if denying God’s power to change people is what Mahaney is actually saying when he boasts of being the “worst sinner.”
One would think just looking at the context of the scripture would indicate this but that isn’t always enough convince some people.
Here are the notes in a few commentaries that indicate Paul was talking about his past life and not his current life. It baffles me that no one in his “association” of churches challenges Mahaney on what I see as a poor interpretation of scripture. Of course no one wants to challege the “pope” or would suffer the consequences.
Alternative translation models for this verse are:
The following is (or, The words that follow are) a true saying that we can receive with no reservations and believe: Christ Jesus came into the world to free people who do sinful things from their evil condition. I am the worst (or, greatest) of such people.
(from the UBS New Testament Handbook Series. Copyright © 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies.)
Alternative translation models for this verse are:
The following is (or, The words that follow are) a true saying that we can receive with no reservations and believe: Christ Jesus came into the world to free people who do sinful things from their evil condition. I am the worst (or, greatest) of such people.
(from the UBS New Testament Handbook Series. Copyright © 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies.)
Trustworthy is this word and worthy of unqualified acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.
(from Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament, Copyright 1940-55 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. Copyrights © renewed 1968-73 by Jeannette I. Wuest. All rights reserved.)
Of whom I am chief—Greek, “first.” The word is used to denote eminence—and it means that he occupied the first rank among sinners. There were none who surpassed him. This does not mean that he had been the greatest of sinners in all respects, but that in some respects he had been so great a sinner, that on the whole there were none who had surpassed him.
Barnes Notes
July 6th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Off topic…
I’ve had the opportunity to hang out with some of our old SGM friends over the summer.
Very little has changed. Some talk a little different talk, but the walk is the same.
July 6th, 2010 at 11:39 am
Call me cynical but I believe it’s by design.
You see it in “Christian” narcissism.
July 6th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
Hey guys,
Never been to the site before, so I thought I would add my 2 cents as an outsider.
First of all, CJ Maheney. I understand the desire to carefully examine what leaders are saying, everyone should practice this on their own and too many people just follow what they hear from the pulpit. They don’t actively listen and discern. However, you can also miss the point unless you take the whole body of content. Having read a few of CJ’s books, I know that him calling himself the “worst of all sinners” is not intended the way it is being promoted here. In fact, everyone so far has assumed that CJ is giving a show of false humility, or is a narcissist, or something else bad. Based on what? All that has been given is a quote and everyone is running with it and assuming the worst. How on earth can we have actual, beneficial discussion with that kind of thing going on? A more detailed investigation into what he means shows that CJ refers to himself in this way in his writing because he knows the depths of the sin in his own heart, and no one else’s. He knows how bad his own sin, therefore he is the “worst sinner he knows.” His word choice is definitely debatable, as the ambiguity is there, but when there is ambiguity, more research should be done before mudslinging.
Second, I have been able to attend a SG church before, and have found none of the lack of love and abundant love of theology that many people here seem to have claimed exists. My experience showed me that the ministry is fully committed to the Gospel, Jesus Christ and Him crucified, as being the center of everything that they do. They even were intentional to tie difficult theological concepts back in with the Gospel, so as to help the congregation understand that it all begins and ends with the cross.
Some background on me- I got really into message boards and blogs back when the whole Lakeland Revival was going on, and Todd Bentley was going nuts. I realized after a long time that getting into this sort of stuff, in an effort to be discerning, left me angry and bitter. I can’t change anyone but myself, so I make an effort to make it my aim to be pleasing to the Lord instead of worrying so much, and becoming bitter, about other people’s conduct. They (and I) will stand or fall by the Mighty Lord we worship.
July 6th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Hey, CM -
Welcome to the site.
I’d say, “Thanks for the tutorial,” but I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of us here are more than aware of the many layers of meaning present in CJ Mahaney’s “worst sinner he knows” schtick. We understand how he expects it to come across, and we also understand how the average “Reformed-But-Not-SGM” person will take it when CJ says this stuff.
But we also understand aspects of these “worst sinner” statements that someone like yourself – who has had just the briefest brushes with the SGM culture – might not pick up on.
You’d do well to read for awhile, read and absorb what has been presented and discussed here for the past 2.5 years, before sweeping in to set us all straight. If you’ve really had as much experience interacting on blogs and message boards as you say you’ve had, then I know you’ll understand why I say that although you probably didn’t mean it this way, your introductory comment comes across as patronizingly didactic, as well as rudely dismissive.
July 7th, 2010 at 6:22 am
CM~ Okay first of all i would like to point out two things to you. 1. When someone repeats something ( I am the worst sinner ) over and over again you would think that he would eventually stop. See the problem isn’t the phrase, its the meaning behind the phrase. Glenn beck is a perfect example, If you watch him on Fox what does he do. He says the same phrases over and over again. Then He cries alittle bitt and then repeats stronger what he just said for a hour.
I like to look at it like this, If i said i was doing better then i deserved ( old SGM catch phrase ) i would be lying. Because being a christian living in his Grace makes me getting exactly what i deserve as his Child.
2. My personal problems with the whole worst sinner phrase. Honestly the bible says other wise. And if you have been a christian for any amount of time you will understand these biblical catch phrases. I am a new creation, You have been given a Godly righteousness. any of those ring any bells???? We all have Sin but telling everyone your the worst of sinners all the time doesn’t leave much room for the works of the Holy Spirit does it. I mean, I still sin everyday. But the Sin isn’t what i focus on. What i choose to focus on is the Freedom my Father has given me from sins power. So to me declaring myself the worst of sinners ( like C.j. does, not the Apostle Paul) I would think is like slapping Christ in the Face. And then telling Him he did not do enough!!!!!! He Has Declared me Righteous Before GOD and thats my only HOPE, JOY and PEACE of MIND. I DO NOT WEAR MY SIN AS A BADGE OF HONOR!!!!!!! I WEAR MY SAINT HOOD AND MY LORD NAME. C.J. is in serious error when he has made a idol out of the very thing the LORD deems detestable.
Do not get me wrong I love the Man. Just hate that there is so much sin in him and not so much righteousness.
July 7th, 2010 at 7:31 am
By the way, Thank you for stopping by.
July 7th, 2010 at 8:43 am
~CM said “Second, I have been able to attend a SG church before, and have found none of the lack of love and abundant love of theology that many people here seem to have claimed exists.”
CM – I would imagine pretty much everyone here would have said that when they first went to an SGM church and/or joined. That’s why we got involved in the first place. Dontcha think?
July 7th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
CM,
Ever heard of LOVE BOMBING?
July 7th, 2010 at 3:12 pm
Yeah really…
most of us spent years telling ourselves stuff like you posted, trying to convince ourselves that the bad stuff wasn’t really happening…why do you suppose people like “Stunned” and “Walking Wounded” picked those names?
July 7th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
I dont think ive ever really moved on….. I think its still there sometimes boiling under the surface………
CM~ We will be here for you if it happens to you also….
July 8th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
CM,
Walk away. You’re wasting your time here.
The Missus
July 9th, 2010 at 1:27 am
~CM –
You really are welcome here. However your sweeping, insulting comments expose either your arrogance or ignorance. And the high, comassionate character of those who post here really would offer you the comfort they have offered so many others if you did run into the authoritarian abusive sheep-eating behavior that so many others have tolerated to the point of breaking.
If you do a search and read “Noel’s Story” or Musicman’s story, or others, we’ll be here to accept your apology, or at least admit you are better informed now than you were.
Nobody likes to be set straight in the way you swooped in. What were you thinking?
July 9th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
http://vimeo.com/12938205
Have you guys seen this impersonation of CJ at the Resolve Conference. Another big money maker for the big dogs.
July 10th, 2010 at 12:54 am
So, who was that bald guy that was laughing so hard at the impersonation of one of the most humble guys in SGM??
July 10th, 2010 at 10:51 am
Is it just me????
I think that video is SO telling.
July 10th, 2010 at 11:33 am
When I first saw CJ back when T4G started, I thought he was about the most giggly silly man I had ever seen. Now, when I see him, I wonder if his giggly demeanor is when he is around the big dogs. The way he defers to them.
Was he giggly and silly toward the pew sitters? I think he is another pulpit performer. We have so many….out there.
July 10th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
I really don’t believe he’s acting lydia. I believe he honestly believes he is getting the direct line and we should all follow him off the cliff. He’s a gifted speaker, teacher and leader. Only problem is so are a lot of men before they run of the deep end.
I’ve said this before and ill say it again, Cj and company have systematically led sgm where they are today. Im preparing a piece for Kris to show u how. But in a nut shell look at the teachings starting in the 90s then look at the time celebration stopped. Then look at where there main focus started going. It went from everyone to 20 somethings. I know I was there,and what some of u didn’t realize was changes where coming. We where all shocked at the first new attitude.
See some of us knew that the older generation of pdi people weren’t going to like what was coming down the pike in 2000. See they couldn’t get to some of u so they tried to catch us at our most weakest time, college and early 20s. They knew if they could indoctrinate us that we would be sold. I know it sounds nuts but its so crazy its true.
I lived it until the door was slammed in my face. I wanted to serve but would always find people that blocked me. U know the supper servers the ones that stood around until a care group leader showed up. I wanted to go to seminary but was told that seminary wasnt God had for me. And pastors college was out of the question, because I didn’t meet the requirements when I asked what they where well you know the rest. I was unteachable, proud, had sin issues. I know what they wanted they wanted a flunky. Well thank God he delivered me from that path. Just felt like telling everyone alittle about me because I’ve read everyones stories so there’s some of it.
July 10th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
“See they couldn’t get to some of u so they tried to catch us at our most weakest time, college and early 20s. They knew if they could indoctrinate us that we would be sold. I know it sounds nuts but its so crazy its true.
”
It is not crazy at all. This is exactly what Mohler, Moore and others do. If you have ever attended an SBC convention, you would not believe the 20 somethings that follow them around and look, act and dress like them, too. Even down to the same haircuts! It is scary. But it works. I have long had a suspicion that this was the main reason for starting Boyce college at SBTS. They wanted them younger and that was the only way to do it. They cannot stand students who think for themselves.
When a late 30′s or 40′s guy decides to go to seminary, he is not so easily swayed. As a matter of fact, many of the older students cannot wait to get their PhD and get out of there. They have some real world experience and do not buy into the blind follower system in place.
Not so with the younger students who are in awe of Mohler and their profs. SBTS is e creating an army of authoritarian leaders who will further their legacy.
July 10th, 2010 at 10:04 pm
pdiwho, I’m glad you’re sharing a bit of who you are. I’ve wondered what your story was.
Stunned
July 10th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
pdiwho,
Indoctrinating the young and impressionable.
Whodathunkit?
July 11th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
“Have you guys seen this impersonation of CJ at the Resolve Conference. Another big money maker for the big dogs.”
I just watched that. ugh and double ugh.
We had such a nice church service today with preaching centered on the Lord and scripture, and singing His praises. Once you taste the real thing you can’t go back to worshipping personalities.
We all love our pastor but we would never think of sucking up to him like that. All those young kids in that audience taken in by the big names. So sad.
July 13th, 2010 at 10:41 am
Has anyone ever actually tried going to CJ and agreeing with his constant protestations?
“Yes … I agree …. you ARE the worst sinner I know too”.
No?
July 13th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
Why Dan!
You’d be full of pride and unteachable.
And then most probably a worst sinner than CJ.
Now that’s the problem.
Unless CJ can honestly say he does not know you, then he is still the worst sinner HE knows.
(Oh what a tangled web!)
July 13th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
In one way the imitation by Rourke has to be a bit humiliating for CJ. It evidences that with practice and a a reasonably good ability to act one can adopt his entire manipulative schtick, complete with false emotionalism and unction.
July 16th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
Where is everyone
July 16th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Vacationing!!
Even pajama-clad bloggers come up out of the basement every now and again for a little vacation time.
(We’re all still here, SGM.)
To be honest, there’s not a lot to talk about. We’ve pretty much exposed…I mean, discussed…it all.
The ball’s in their court now. Based on my observation of the game, it looks like they’re still running a lot of the same old plays – just giving a few of them different names.
July 16th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
AKS: Based on my observation of the game, it looks like they’re still running a lot of the same old plays – just giving a few of them different names.
Agreed! ‘essentially reformed’ has become “sorta Presbyterian”
sheesh. a sheep is a sheep and a goat is a goat. I’m pretty sure God wants our YES to mean YES and NO to mean NO…. and all our other words in the middle should have integrity, too.