Reader and commenter Claireon posted a link to an interesting sermon by C.J. Mahaney. Here was Claireon’s original comment:
I have remarked that CJ Mahaney manipulates people into a thinking a certain way about his leadership and his leadership team, effectively quenching any discussion of them or their involvement in people’s lives.
I encourage you to carefully listen to the following message, which was given as a trial run, before delivering the same message to his home church of CLC (during which I was present).
http://content.christianity.com/1/56714/1_56714_TheHappiestPlaceonEarth.32.mp3
I am of the opinion that much of what he says is in addition to what is actually taught in scripture.
Btw, the content of this message is repeated at CLC as often as Mahaney repeats himself while he is sermonizing.
I listened to the message, and immediately, a number of things became clear to me. For one, certain charges of “slander” that have been leveled at our discussion here suddenly made more sense. For another, I realized anew why attitudes of total obedience and submission were so prevalent among the SG folks I knew.
I posted my reaction to this sermon in the “comments” section of the “What Would It Take?” entry, but since Mahaney’s teaching on submission to church authorities is a key part of the Sovereign Grace mentality, I think it deserves its own discussion.
Here is my analysis:
I’m 40 minutes into this sermon, and my stomach is churning. No wonder this little site has already played host to comments accusing me of “slander.” Mahaney takes Hebrews 13 and essentially sets up church leaders as people we are OBLIGATED to obey…because they (the leaders) “watch over our souls.”
As part of this submission and obedience, he says that the people have a DUTY to confront anything that seems to be “slander.” That’s the exact term he uses, several times. The people must “preserve the trust” by defending their leaders against “slander.”
Wow.
He does say that if there is a legitimate concern, the people also have a duty to humbly bring the concern to the leaders, “not as an accusation, but as an observation.”
He does admit that this passage causes a great deal of discomfort among American Evangelicals.
Yet…in all the splintered and fractured glory of what is the Protestant church in America, and with the transient nature of our society, where people move all over the place, how are we to know for certain that a particular church leader meets these qualifications…how can we know that it’s OK to submit to them and invest that much trust in them?
Sadly, the Christian church in America is RIFE with abuse of this level of authority. We’re not living in the first century anymore, after all.
And, wouldn’t Mahaney himself be completely out of luck if he truly had practiced this passage of Scripture in his younger years? Wouldn’t it mean that he should have remained Catholic?
Better yet, would Mahaney say that the Reformers – Luther, Calvin, et al – were in sin for not submitting to THEIR authorities?
With ALL of Scripture to preach from, with such a vast array of topics from which to choose, and with how totally submitted most SGM folks seem to be already, why is THIS a message Mahaney focuses on?
I guess I’m a bit blown away to hear such concrete proof of exactly what I have sensed all along…
And how many times must he hammer away on the notion of our remaining indwelling sin?
To be fair, Mahaney is giving a fairly straightforward reading of this passage (Hebrews 13)…UNTIL he goes into more detail as to what “submission” actually looks like. Suddenly, Mahaney himself – this is NOT spelled out in the passage – defines submission as “joyfully accepting the doctrines the leaders teach, joyfully supporting the mee-Tings and all the programs of the church, and joyfully defending their leaders against slander.”
Ooooh, and in his conclusion, he says that the success of leadership is dependent upon the proper submission and obedience of the people to their leaders. If the people aren’t obeying and submitting, the leader’s ministry cannot be fruitful.
Wow. Check out THAT leap of logic!
In other words, if a leader has a problem, it is, in effect, the fault of unsubmissive, disobedient people.
Later, I added the following:
I certainly don’t take issue with the Hebrews 13 passage. It’s right there in the Bible, after all.
I guess this message blows me away because it raises far more questions than it answers.
For one thing, with all of Mahaney’s obsession over our “remaining indwelling sin,” I would expect him to first lay more of a foundation for why our modern-day leaders actually meet the qualifications that the Hebrews leaders would have met. Do our current pastors and elders automatically qualify as leaders in the same capacity as those of the early New Testament church? What safeguards are in place for the (as Mahaney would definitely say) inevitability of SIN in our leaders’ lives? What if we see a sinful need for control in our leaders? Or have some other such concern?
Are we obligated to obey and submit to anyone who slaps on the title of “Pastor” or “Elder”? How do we know that we are in a place where these commands for submission and obedience now apply to us?
(I’m not being snarky…I’d really dearly love to know this!)
Also, Mahaney himself acknowledges that this passage of Scripture makes most American Evangelicals highly uncomfortable. He goes on to say that sometimes, this is because a person has been hurt by a leader who abused his authority. But then, rather than explaining how we can discern between biblical leaders and abusive leaders, he simply offers up, “If that applies to you, I am sincerely sorry.” Then he moves on to say we still have an obligation to obey and submit.
In this message, he sets up a church culture where a loyal member’s first response to any whisper of negativity is supposed to be accusing that brother or sister of “slander.” Another question I have is, is there room anywhere in Scripture for honest dissension? Is dissension automatically “slander”? Would simply questioning leadership be viewed as “slander”?
I also would like to know where he gets his definitions for what “submission” and “obedience” look like. Since when does the Bible say that “submission” equals supporting all of a church’s mee-Tings?
(Or “gatherings.” I noticed that Mahaney also favors the word, “gathering.” He calls church services “mee-Tings” or “gatherings,” but NEVER “services.” I find this fascinating…I wonder why he so consciously avoids the terminology used by most of the rest of Evangelical Christianity?)
Finally, I believe he steps outside the bounds of Scripture when he says that unsubmissive, disobedient people are the root cause of unsuccessful leadership. Certainly he wouldn’t say that MOSES was unsuccessful or unfruitful. Yet Moses had to lead such an unsubmissive people that on at least one occasion, God declared He was just going to destroy them all and start over again.
Effectively, the bottom line of this message is, you must submit to and obey your church leaders…and if you have questions, you must approach them personally or else stifle your concerns, because to express any sort of discontent is the same as “slander.” You also have a duty to shut down anyone else who might be asking questions (he calls it “sowing doubt”) by accusing them of slander.
And if your pastor’s ministry is unsuccessful, it’s YOUR fault anyway, because YOU are asking questions and aren’t submissive or obedient enough.
Finally, the next morning I added this comment:
It’s a funny thing, but I had a hard time getting to sleep last night because of this message. As I lay in bed, my thoughts were spinning. I spent a lot of time asking the Lord, “Is this emphasis on submission right?”
I think it is, and it isn’t.
It’s right as far as it’s Scripturally balanced and based. Submission and obedience are mentioned many times throughout the Bible. I actually read through Hebrews 13 last night (just to be certain I’d understood the passage correctly). Then I went on to read through the entire books of James and I Peter. The command to submit to authority is repeated several times just in James and I Peter alone.
So obviously, the concept of submission is something that God wants from His people.
Where I take issue, though, is when submission and obedience are emphasized without also bringing up servant leadership and some realistic strategies for dealing with the false teachers that Jesus, Paul, and Peter tell us will inevitably come along and deceive people.
I mean, if submission is stressed above all else, then the people are primed and ready for deception, should it come along.
I won’t put words in Mahaney’s mouth, because he didn’t actually get around to saying this, but if I had to guess, I’d bet that his answer to my question (”How can you know if your leaders are trustworthy?”) would be if they’re teaching correct doctrines. He sort of alludes to this toward the beginning of the message.
And I’d say that he’s right, in a sense.
Yet…if you’ve been so trained, so brainwashed, to accept EVERYTHING that comes down the pike from your leaders, and to reject ANY questioning of your leaders with knee-jerk accusations of “slander,” then I believe your ability to discern when your leaders might veer into incorrect doctrine will be seriously diminished.
Cult leader Jim Jones started out as a preacher of the Gospel, after all. I’m sure his early followers weren’t all brainless, zoned-out groupies. Yet somewhere along the way, they lost their capacity to discern.
Another aspect of Mahaney’s emphasis on submission is that when leaders have been honored and revered the way that Mahaney and company currently are, how realistic is it to believe your average Joe will feel at all empowered to approach them to offer up correction?
If someone genuinely believed that a leader like Mahaney or Josh Harris were in error (and trust me, I’m NOT saying that either one of them is!), is it at all likely that they’d be open and approachable for a conversation? Isn’t it far more likely that they have surrounded themselves with other totally submitted leaders who have – because of this overemphasis on submission – become “yes men”?
As I said before, given Mahaney’s preoccupation with man’s indwelling sin, I’m surprised that he preaches such a strong message about the people’s need to submit to their leaders. After all, leaders (according to Mahaney) are just sinners like everybody else. Surely, cultivating such mindless submissiveness in their followers could be a dangerous and scary tool in the hands of a sinner?
Now, what do YOU think?
March 9th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Scales,
I think we go to the same SGM church.
April 1st, 2008 at 6:34 am
I’m a pastor from a non SGM church…and looking very carefully and closely at SGM, its leaders and flocks with a desire to discern the will of the Lord for our life, family and a potential future ministry in SGM. In all of of my research and “background checks” (due in no small part to this blog) I’m further convinced that, unless the Lord builds it, those who build it will do so in vain. Through this post may God protect me from self-serving, unloving, and less-than-love-and-grace-filled motives.
A couple of years ago God really began to speak to me about becoming a preaching pastor (of which I currently do very little in my present ministry post). As I’ve tried to discern whether or not God has called me (or whether I’m simply proving a glowing reference for myself), I’ve poured over the Scriptures, read numerous books and blogs on the subject. Since God began to compel me to seek a preaching role, God has repeatedly and overwhelmingly led me across SGM paths and specifically to a Sovereign Grace church that my wife and family will soon be moving to and joining. Because God’s fingerprint has been undeniably all over this process, I was saddened to discover this blog…saddened and also incredibly grateful. To say that there are “competing voices” (regarding SGM) clamoring for my attention would be an understatement.
How am I saddened? I’m sad that so many people have been hurt and that a biblical unity was not (or has not, to date) been achieved for so many here. I’m saddened by unresolved hurt and bitterness (obviously more than a simple “root”, and still growing in some of you). I’m saddened by the prospect of leaders who misuse and abuse God-given authority. I’m saddened for the lack of perfect insight into all of these grievances, knowing that there are two sides to every story. I’m sad that the intentions (presumably holy) of SGM leaders are not being universally felt and experienced. I’m sad that the intentions (presumably holy) of Berean critics are not being universally felt and experienced. Even more so, I’m saddened by my own ongoing sin, selfishness, and lack of self-emptying love for others. There is not much hope for us…unless Christ take hold of the ship.
I’m also incredibly grateful. I’m grateful that God would grant me a glimpse into the hearts of hurting sheep who need a shepherd. I’m grateful that, through this process, God keeps thrusting me back into His Word to discern the voices I’m hearing. I’m grateful that God allows sinful people like me to serve a holy and righteous God. I gratefully heed passages such as this:
“But when I thought how to understand this, it seemed to me a wearisome task, until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I discerned their end…Nevertheless, I am continually with you; you hold my right hand. You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but you?
And there is nothing on earth that I desire besides you.” (Psalm 73: 16-17, 23-25)
So having said all of that, please consider a few observations and encouragements from one observer:
1. “Just the facts, ma’am.” I listened to Mahaney’s “Happiest Place of Earth” message and found very little of it objectionable. This surprised me, to be quite honest. After hearing pages of commentary (on this blog) regarding his message, I (and I’ll use a bit of hyperbole here) expected to hear the sound of horns growing out of CJ’s skull as he preached. Was he not addressing BBC? Was he not encouraging a presumably healthy congregation with presumably godly leadership to heed the words and tone of Hebrews 13. Is it not right to obey and submit to godly pastors…thus benefitting yourself and bringing joy to your pastors. His admonition to not slander or subvert godly leadership is clearly scriptural. There is no error in these teaching. The problem arises when one person (a congregant and/or pastor) won’t submit to the authority of Scripture. Yes, there are pastors who don’t lead perfectly and congregants who don’t follow perfectly, but that doesn’t change the meaning of the text. So which is it in your case?
If your pastor won’t reason with you from Scripture and submit His life to its scrutiny, should you follow him? If your pastor can’t reason with you from Scripture and you won’t submit to it’s scrutiny, should he lead you?
Back to CJ. He taught the text. He made application that can be clearly supported from other scriptures. He applied this text to the people of BBC in the context of BBC. Where’s the beef?
2. Name calling went out with Rudolph and his red nose. Name calling gets us nowhere fast. I urge all of us to give an accurate testimony of details and leave it at that. To go beyond this by using pejorative labels feeds our pride and the Enemy’s schemes. Most of you seem to be very comfortable specifically citing CJ, other leaders, and SGM churches by their real name. Therefore, I urge you to use your real name. Anonymous communication (mixed with a highly impersonal medium such as an internet blog) is less credible and less compelling than you would like it to be. Obviously, many are clearly reticent to divulge specifics for fear that… (fill in the blank). However, my personal policy regarding anonymous communication is that it goes straight in the trash without being read. I’ve given this blog and all of it’s commentators the benefit of the doubt by reading it, wondering who you really are, where you attend, and what are the details surrounding your “beef”. That having been said, I urge honest, forthright, and personal communication. Impersonal and anonymous communication will not lead to biblical restoration of your issues. That is, in fact, what we’re all seeking, right? CJ didn’t comment on verses 18-20 of Hebrews 13, but I’ll quote them:
“Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. I urge you the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you the sooner. Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
3. Speaking of prayer, I would urge all of you to pray that God would winnow away all SGM chaff and salvage all of its good grain for the furtherance of His kingdom. God will surely honor this prayer. According to Hebrews 12 God will certainly chastises His own children (even leaders). Pray that God will be just in his dealings with you and your leaders. Be careful what you pray for! God may grant it! Specifically, allow me to pastor your heart, especially if you have received “expulsion” or discipline from your church (from Hebrews 12:12-15, 25):
“Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled…See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.”
4. Doctrinal unity, mutual accountability and biblical authority. These seem to be the touchstones and common threads I see on this blog. May the Scriptures guide us in finding His resolution to these issues. I firmly believe that encouraging one another from the word will be of more lasting benefit than simply venting. The judicious use of Scripture will temper our frustration and channel our passion for His glory. Draw your swords and lets fight the Enemy in the power of Jesus name!
April 1st, 2008 at 9:03 am
Roger,
Thank you for your comment.
I am praying for you. I can hear your heart and how you really want to do what the Lord is calling you to do. May the Lord guide you.
About the only thing I want to reply to is your response to CJ Mahaney’s sermon. “The Happiest Place On Earth” has been delivered to MANY Sovereign Grace churches, along almost identical lines as the version you heard. That was just the link provided so that people could access a recording of it.
I wonder if you are truly comfortable with the final thrust of the sermon – that it is the PEOPLE’S responsibility to make their pastors succeed, through their submission and obedience to their leaders? That if you, as a member of an SGM congregation, see your leaders do something you think is “wrong,” it is ultimately YOUR fault, because if you were in proper submission to them, they wouldn’t have those problems?
Are you truly comfortable with SGM’s strange double-speak? Leaders will call themselves “the worst sinners” they know, and yet there is utterly no system in place for them to answer to their people. Rather, they answer only to those above them. In my thinking, this nullifies any talk of acknowledging one’s own sinfulness. If the circle of accountability merely NARROWS instead of EXPANDS the higher up in leadership one gets, then the leadership structure by definition is not set up in a way that honestly acknowledges leaders’ sinful natures.
I am praying for you, Roger. Truly. May God lead and PROTECT you and your family!
Blessings,
Kris
April 1st, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Kris,
Thanks for your response and your prayers. I’m processing your question/perspective regarding the “final thrust” and I look forwarding to discussing this will several SGM pastors that I’ll have the opportunity to meet for the first time while at Together For the Gospel. May God bring openness and honesty through this dialogue as we seek the light of truth.
Treasuring Jesus,
Roger
April 4th, 2008 at 11:51 am
I have brought a number of questions up over the years to various SGM leaders, perhaps too many.
I still take the time to schedule meetings, and bring my thoughts or concerns only to the leaders that are in a position to address what is at hand. The meetings always end up in this format.
1. I speak my concern
1b. Sometimes the meeting will end here with the proclomation that, because I am not a shining/victorious example of christianity in the area in which I have a question,
therefore I am disqualified from asking any questions.
2. I am told that the problem is not with the church, but in my lack of understanding, lack of faith, or perhaps part of a sinfull patern that does not make me readily availible
to accept the appointment and decisions of the leaders.
3. I am reminded of how I am the worst siner, and that I should be more concerned of where I am falling short, rather than spending my time alowing myself to be distracted by the percieved sin of others.
4. I am then assured that God appoints all leaders. I am reminded that even if the leaders are wrong, God will still use it for his purpose. This is usually followed by an assurance that God is for his Church, and it is not my calling to concern myself with
things that are beyond my appointment.
They are usually very gracious and seemingly concerned. But the concern usually surfaces in the other direction. In the same way a friend may look at you if you had something on your teeth, they will start with a look that implies you are missing something bigger. Subtle, but it is there like a magician who waves one hand to take your eyes off the curtian.
A recent example would be when it was anounced that SGM had been running in the red for a number of years. This was announced by Josh Harris at the begining of a series on the Go Forward Fund. We have been tought that provision was one of the key indicators of when God is for something. If SGM is in the red, perhaps we are moving a wrong direction. I know a number of people who asked the same questions to the same leaders. None of which got past 1b due to the fact that they had a credit card, car loan, student loan, or mortgage somewhere in their life.
One interseting comment I recieved was that as americans, we can petition the President with letters, and with our vote. In the church, we have the same recourse, we can pray, petitioning God, or vote with our feet. There are plenty of great churches out there, this one may not be the best fit for you.
April 4th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Chris,
Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure if you’ve posted to the site before, but if not, welcome.
Your post clearly outlines what many people have shared about what happens when they bring a concern or criticism to leadership. It’s interesting that you mention SGM’s finances. I wonder if that is information that is recent and accurate for all the churches, or is it true for just the “corporate” part of SGM, or what? Nobody has ever brought up SGM’s having money issues.
April 5th, 2008 at 10:36 am
How can they be running in the red when there are 70 churches sending them thousands of dollars each year in support??
April 6th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Hey Kris,
That post was my first, and your site has been a great help to me.
Hi Ellie, good question that I never had the benifit of getting an answer to. It was not for a lack of trying. Internal wisdom would suggest that the deficit would stem from a lack of giving.
http://www.joshharris.com/2007/05/god_wants_your_heart_1.php#more
“Today I’m preparing a sermon about sacrificial giving and living for the sake of advancing the gospel. Our church is focusing on sacrifice as we prepare to give to our “Go Forward Fund.” This fund was created to accelerate our mission in four areas—debt reduction, world outreach, training new pastors and church planting.”
Side bar for Ellie; I have a copy of the member financial report for the flagship church, in 2005 it recieved $6,805,434 in member contributions with a total reciepts at $9,346,669. (This accounting was given to all flagship members, and I have it next to me as I write. The deficit for the year for this location was $273,209)
It does not state what percentage goes back to SGM, and I would venture to say that
most of the SGM churches are at a different level.
January 1st, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Fascinating read this. As a Reformed Baptist who has seen authoritarianism all too often in our circles this blog is disappointing to read. I am curious about its originator. Is there any possibility of getting clarification about that. My interest in this lies in a desire to eventually put together something about the problem of authority v authoritarianism in the American Reformed scene.
Thanks
RB
January 1st, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Hey, Pastor Robert -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I suppose you could say that I am the “originator” of this site…although that makes it sound more like I had some sort of plan or agenda, and I most certainly didn’t. I have to chuckle when I think of how random it was that my husband uttered the fateful words, “You could always start your own blog…”
I’ve shared the story of how we happened to stumble into this whole Sovereign Grace thing before. Here are some snippets of how things began:
January 1st, 2010 at 8:10 pm
Kris
Thanks for the welcome. I appreciate the candidness of the blog and the topic is one close to my own heart for two reasons, the fact I am a pastor and the fact that I have been embroiled in controversy in Reformed Baptist circles regarding the issue of authority v authoritarianism.
In reading a lot of these posts I see that the issue is not one that is restricted to my circle but exists elsewhere. Whilst this might give me some relief it is really cold comfort because it is evident that what I am witnessing is really a spiritual issue and one that needs to be evaluated and understood as it is clearly important.
I am preparing the 1 Peter 5 text for a sermon on eldership for this Lord’s Day evening and in wrestling with the issue of what constitutes an apostolic and biblical style of ministry v3 is critical. The irony for me in this is that my one and only sermon of CJ’s that I have heard is on this text and preached at the Gospel Coalition Conference back in April 2009, I thought he handled it well. The testimonies here certainly indicate that the SG movement is however still struggling to understand and apply this text in its ranks.
I want to ensure I am fair to all in this serious issue. Accusations against elders are legitimate and should be handled lovingly, humbly and honestly. It is also vital not to judge a matter before one hears it and for that the other side of the testimonies would need to be heard too.
I am glad for the testimonies in giving concrete examples of how sheep view they way they are handled, something pastors needs to hear, study, understand and handle with love and grace and redemptive objectives.
I look forward to further communication.
Warmest regards
RB