I received an email this morning that contained the following, which is posted with the author’s permission:
At the SGM church in San Diego tonight we received a surprise: we are getting a new senior pastor. Mark Lauterbach, the current senior pastor will remain on staff at the church as an associate pastor, while our current associate pastor Eric Turbedsky will take the position as the new senior pastor. Mark Lauterbach is in his fifties and has only been with SGM about 5 years. Unlike many SGM pastors, he has been to seminary and has decades of experience pastoring in churches outside SGM. As far as I know, the new much younger senior pastor Eric Turbedsky has only been to SGM pastors college and has only been associate pastor at our SGM church.
This was announced at a members meeting tonight separate from the usual Sunday meeting. Many members walked into the building and noticed that SGM apostolic team member Steve Shank was there. He was involved in the changes at the Aurora, Colorado SGM Church. Seeing Shank was a total surprise to most of us because Shank lives in Phoenix and had not been in the morning meeting. We all knew something unusual was happening.
Lauterbach started by announcing the leadership change and then informing us that the church budget had a $60K deficit. There will be a “Mission Fund” offering taken to help offset this. Shank then took the microphone and joked that people were saying, “Uh-oh, Steve Shank is here.” Shank then said that he was actually bringing “good tidings”. He announced that an “evaluation process” had taken place over the last year and a half, where he flew into San Diego for weekday meetings that “99% of you were not aware of”. Shank said that the local pastors had the primary role in this evaluation, and his role was secondary. He said that this evaluation process revealed that Lauterbach had a more appropriate “gifting” for the associate pastor role while Turbedsky had a “gifting” suited for senior pastor. Shank commended Lauterbach on his humility and announced that Lauterbach would be training Turbedsky in preaching. Shank stated that Charles Spurgeon was a hero to him, but unfortunately Spurgeon’s church only lasted one generation. Shank said that actions like this “transition” at our church would help SGM last beyond the original generation.
After Turbedsky and another associate pastor spoke, Lauterbach said there would be no public questions taken after the meeting, but that members could bring their questions to pastors privately. He said that another meeting may be scheduled next month for more public questions. Since all this took place in a members meeting, if a recording exists I suspect it will not be posted on the church web site.
I can’t help but think this sounds like the Keith Jacob scenario all over again. What is going on within the Sovereign Grace organization? Does anyone else think it’s bizarre that such major moves are being sprung on churches like this? I don’t care how lowly and beneath them the SGM “apostles” believe the average church member to be – it’s just beyond odd that a congregation can be so completely kept in the dark and so totally unaware that their senior pastor’s “gifting” is being called into question and his job is on the line.
December 9th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
The churches pay money every month to sgm. That’s part of the financial statement you get every year. I’m not sure what the percentage is, but yes, they are paying a specific amount of their income every month.
I would be willing to bet that it is at least 10%.
Then, every year they also do their SGM Missions presentation where they talk about what they do and ask for money from each individual above and beyond what already gets paid by your tithe.
I will ask around to see if I can get that financial information from people I know who are still part of SGM.
December 9th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Hey, “What’s it” -
Can you also find out how major decisions like hirings and firings are made? Who legally has the final word over the “local” SGM church? Is it people IN those “local” churches? Or is it the dudes from headquarters?
Are pastors like Keith Jacob obligated to submit to what Steve Shank tells them? How can we find out about the legal structure there?
December 9th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I am SO FREAKING SICK of SGM’s leaders not knowing diddly squat about church history.
Spurgeon’s church, Metropolitan Tabernacle, is still alive and kicking, one of the hugest Reformed Baptist congregations ever. He left his denomination when they went liberal, but the church was gigantic in his time, and very large now.
He did massive missions and evangelistic works, orphanages, seminaries, etc. ~15,000 people were baptized during his pastorate.
His son pastored it several years after CS’s departure and death.
WORDS MEAN THINGS. Stop making up stuff, SGM! Get your heads out of the sand and read something beside blogs about clean drawers and ramen noodles, for heaven’s sake.
Check their website: http://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/
December 9th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
amen-I didn’t think his comment about Spurgeon’s church was correct, but didn’t have the time to research it.
December 9th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Reformed Teacher, Thank you very much for that post. I am a morning and evening fan. Well really I’m now marked by God, but I appreciate you clearing that up.
December 9th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Kris
I am by no means an expert on this but from what I have heard each of these SGM churches has to legally have a board of directors. It is my understanding that ultimate decisions could be controlled by whoever is on this board. How these people are placed on this board is a good question. There also may be some wording in their charter that makes them more under the control of SGM. I am not a lawyer.
I have heard that when a church is adopted the board initially becomes “stacked” with SGM people which may later change. Thus depending on who is on each local church’s board of directors could determine if “succession” from the denomination (oops association of churches) could happen.
I am sure that if there was a disagreement it would be a mess. Does anyone here know how to look up who the board of directors are for any of these churches?
The Cleveland church left SGM (called PDI at the time) shortly after Larry Tomczac left the group. I wouldn’t be surprised if after that SGM found a way to tighten this loop hole.
Of course, IMO, if a pastor or local church decided to not go along with what SGM was dictating there would be some kind of a split. Some would leave and some stay with SGM if it remained. Of course leaving/not leaving is more of an issue when the church owns property and especially a building. That ownership would be a factor in all of this.
Didn’t the Atlanta church split like this quite a while ago and Larry Tomczak was brought in to run what remained after a significant part of the church left? It is my understanding that Larry was brought down there because of this. Of course when Tomczac left the group he then started his own church taking some of the people with him.
December 9th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
I think Jim addressed this a while ago-maybe when he’s done celebrating he’ll comment ?
December 9th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
If there is some sort of “board of directors” it is made up solely of pastors. Care group leaders would be the next “downline” to pastors and they have ZERO authority other than holding meetings and doing what the pastors tell them to do. Sometimes they counsel people. But other than that, they have no authority in the church governance.
How I understand it is that there is a team of “leaders” overseeing the entire SGM. That is listed on SGM’s website. Currently that group consists of Mahaney, Harris, Ennis and possibly Dave Harvey. That’s it.
Then, beneath them are “regional overseers” who have “control” of a region. So, for example, if you go to the church in AZ, where Steve Shank is, it says the following in his bio: “Steve has been a part of several church plants and currently oversees all of the Sovereign Grace churches in Western North America, Canada, and Central and South America.”
Then, each of the churches has their pastors.
That’s the entirety of the denomination’s governance (I don’t think I’ll stop calling SGM a denomination because, by definition, it is.).
You can find this information on SGM and each church’s website.
Now, if only I could find out how much each church pays to SGM, I’d be really happy.
December 9th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
My guess is that most churches tithe their tithe (meaning 10% of what they receive they pass on up to SGM) any pastor/elders out there want to confirm this?
December 9th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
What’s it all about?
In response to your recent post, I was referring to legal structure. Again I am not an expert.
Even if this legal structure exists it only may exist due to legal requirements required by law. That is the board may have ultimate power but doesn’t exert its power in day to day operations of the local church is over.
Thus what I am saying and what you are saying can both be true. This board is only set up to meet the requirements of the law and doesn’t exert its authority like local elders usually do at a local church. Again, this board may be filled with SGM leadership.
December 9th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Steve,
Thanks for the info. I’d agree with you that at least legally, there has to be some sort of board of directors for each local entity. I’m not a lawyer, either, but I always thought that was the rule for a not-for-profit organization.
I’d almost guess that this board of directors for each church is made up of the pastor(s) along with a couple of the “overseers” – but NOT anyone from the actual congregation, unless that man happens to also be an overseer.
Is there any SGM person out there, either current or former, who has ever actually SAT on a governing board of directors for a Sovereign Grace (or PDI) church? If so, perhaps you could weigh in and tell us what that experience entails?
December 9th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
“What’s it” -
Thanks for that info.
I think it would be very interesting to find out who ACTUALLY has the final word about hirings and firings. We know it’s not based upon any sort of congregational vote. Yet supposedly SGM is not even as tight an organization as to make it an official “denomination.” Therefore, you wouldn’t think that the boys from headquarters would wield any real power.
Yet apparently, pastors can be made to step down against their will, with at least some of the people in their churches who are unhappy with and shocked by this firing.
(I mean, really – let’s just call it what it is! When someone had a job, and then no longer has a job, and this process happened against his will, and he is soon replaced with another man who takes his identical position – in the real world, we would say he GOT FIRED. He did not “step down.” Why all these foolish euphemisms?)
But my bottom line question is this: who has the final say about hirings and firings?
If it’s really the boys at headquarters, then SGM is not even a denomination. It’s something even more tightly controlled.
December 9th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Since the subject of church splits came up, does anyone know what really happen during the church spilt in Phoenix back in the early 80′s? I heard it was “nasty” and the part that “spilt off” had “doctrinal issues”
December 9th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
Woops – I mean Late 80′s, around 1987-1988 was when that church split happened.
December 9th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I just wanted to comment on the discussion regarding hirings and firings — again contrasting the Methodist experience with SGM’s. I apologize in advance if the use of my dad’s denom bothers anyone — I just want to provide at least one frame of reference.
Anyway, that said: every year, my dad meets with his local district superintendant (who provides general oversight of a particular area’s local churches, and who reports to the Conference’s presiding bishop elected every four years from his/her elder clergy), and the two, along with the local church, meets to discuss the previous year’s pastorate and decides whether the pastor is able, or needs to stay with the church according to the congregation’s needs and desires. Sometimes my dad feels he has done all he could with the church and elects to be reassigned to another church elsewhere. Most pastors stay for four years. The longest my dad has stayed with a church was ten years, and that was in his last assignment. He has been in his present church for about four years now.
The pastor is not fired by the congregation if the congregation finds itself dissatisfied. It is usually at these yearly meetings held in May/June with the district superintendant and the local church that a decision is made if it is best for the pastor to move on. The pastor also has the choice of retiring or requesting assignment elsewhere.
It is all very collegial and follows an orderly process. Only in flagrant cases is a pastor removed summarily by the district superintendant or the presiding bishop and disciplined according to the Book of Discipline (which governs the running of the Conference, worship, and other aspects of the ministry, and is available to anyone to read through).
I am not sure about the Baptist denom, but I believe — and correct me if I’m wrong — that Baptist pastors are hired by the church and they can be retained for as long as the church likes. If the Baptist pastor desires to move on, he or she (depending on which Baptist convention!) can look for another church or work within the larger Baptist Convention hierarchy for some period of time.
The Catholic church is somewhat more regimented, given its long existence, but even the Catholic local churches can complain to the bishop of the diocese if they are angered by a particular priest. I know that in my community, there used to be a priest that deeply offended the congregation to the point that they asked the bishop to remove him as soon as possible.
My underlying theme is that all of these so-called mainstream denoms have some level of congregational participation in retaining or requesting another pastor, in contrast to what we see with SGM’s pastors.
December 9th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
wow. Ok, I have decided to share some information more specifically about the SGM church I left in April. The reason I am doing so is because it certainly is more proof that this type of pastor replacement is going on in other places.
Background: my church was adopted into SGM after a 5 yr “courtship” in June of 2007. The Sr Pastor started the church 27 years ago, and has pastored it ever since. I’d say he has plenty of experience, and is gifted as a pastor. The church has not seen tremendous growth, I think probably about 150 in attendance and membership of 300? That might have changed since i left. Decent sized, just your average church.
Anyway, unlike most SGM churches, the church is NOT in a large city or suburb, we are in a small town of about 25,000 people, 35 minutes/miles from the largest city. Not a suburb at all. It is a middle class, small town city and the church is as well for the most part. I don’t know of a single church PLANT that isn’t suburban in a rich area, but the adopted churches may be another story. Two other churches in Texas are adopted as well – Pearland (Near Houston) and the Midland church. I don’t know much about either of them to be honest. The Frisco church plant is in one of the fastest growing and wealthiest suburban areas of the North Dallas metroplex. Just like all the other plants.
Before I left, the Associate Pastor resigned, both from his position as Principal of the private school the church had (also 27 yrs old and open to the community) and he resigned as Assoc pastor. He was my care group leader, but is still leading a care group. His reason given were to prepare for overseas missions – which I believe to be true. He is one of about three evangelists in the church. Was he pressured at all or manipulated? Who knows. But his resignation came as a surprise to everyone.
Within a month (if memory serves) of this happening, there is an announcement that a young man (in his late 20′s) from the Frisco, TX church would be attending Pastor’s College and then returning to our church when he was done to “intern” and be the Assoc Pastor. Nevermind that two men that I knew of in the church had expressed an interest in full time ministry, one called to be a pastor and one called to youth ministry. These men were overlooked or ignored and the outside guy chosen. It seemed strange to me – no training, no support, it’s like the church didn’t recognize their callings. Very sad.
So this guy from Frisco is presently at Pastor’s College, slated to move to town when he gets done. There have already been visits by him and his wife to “get to know” the Body here. Of course this guy is great and people like him. I wonder if he knows how strange this is – or if he knows the history of the church there and what transpired prior to him being told me was moving there.
When I spoke with my Sr Pastor in the phone about two months ago about my blog (the apostle who is over him and located at the Frisco church told him about it) I told him that SGM was controlling the church now and that was why I would never be back- he disagreed strongly. I asked him how he could think that since SGM was hand-picking the next pastor and he wasn’t even from the church and nobody knew him! He said “that was a suggestion made by Craig (Cabannis) and we were not obligated to anything” (I’m paraphrasing, but put it in quotes, just for the record)
So I asked him “what do you think would have happend if you said NO to Craig?” And he said “Nothing.” I could not and still can’t believe how deceived he is about the control over his own church. I loved that church, and joined it prior to them being adopted. Had I known anything at all about SGM prior to being adopted in, you better believe I woudl have said something. But apparently some did say things, and express concerns, and they were ignored. More than a few have warned leadership against SGM..all ignored.
So I write all this to say that it sure seems like SGM is strategically planning to take over this church too – with their “own man” one who has been under the leadership and influence of an apostle. It seems logical that the aspotle could control a younger man with no experience who once was in his own congregation than a man with 27 years pastoral experience.
I will not be surprised in the least when the Sr pastor is asked to step down or retire and the same ol’ “this guy is more gifted” baloney is given as justification. I doubt anyone in the church has a clue what is going on. I don’t talk about it to anyone. It just makes me sad that my former pastor is being deceived, and manipulated, and doesn’t even realize it. But, he has been warned. I wish there was a support group for displaced SGM pastors to heal. I think the hurt they experience far surpasses what I have. Anyway, please pray for the church here – that the Lord would reveal Truth, and that the Body here would have discernment. (which is greatly lacking right now)
December 9th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Hi, London…
Thanks for the summary of the way that other mainstream denominations run things. I’m with you in that these organizations seem to manage their affairs in a much more logical way.
I’m pretty sure, though, that SGM would believe their “family of churches” is superior to all these other denominations because SGMers think that the way they do things demonstrates that THEY know how to submit to authority.
Now, granted, submission to one’s authorities is biblical. It is good and Godly to submit to authority.
But SGM has redefined “authority” to mean “authority as the way SGM works it out.” AND – even more important – SGM’s concept of authority flows from the notion that apostolic authority as it was in the Bible continues to this day and (somehow) now flows through CJ and his assigned minions.
December 9th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Wow, Juli -
What a story. You’re right, in that it does sound like they are setting the stage for a complete SGM takeover.
Either SGM leadership is extremely insensitive and oblivious, or they are deliberately choosing to steamroll over the people who make up these congregations.
Either way, it’s very sad.
December 10th, 2008 at 12:18 am
Juli,
Another thing to wonder…Craig Cabaniss has only been there for 3 years. Unless this new guy is part of the church plant, how well does anyone really know his “gifting?”
Is that church going to have another “mistake” like the Colorado and California churches (and how many more) have had where suddenly (with a 1.5 year evaluation done by one person), the guy lacks the gifting necessary?
How very very sad for the poor people. They go on trusting their ‘authority’ and ‘believing the best’ at all cost.
December 10th, 2008 at 12:52 am
“the church budget had a $60K deficit. …an “evaluation process” had taken place over the last year and a half, where he flew into San Diego for weekday meetings that “99% of you were not aware of”.
Hmmm, how many flights contributed to that 60K deficit do you think?
“Also, it’s a bit questionable IMO to run a church deficit through the Mission Fund, is it not?”
Once again, I’m curious about the tax complications and legalities of that.
“Mark preached, Eric handled administrational duties and preached a little, and Dan counseled”
So wait a minute… the one who was responsible for handling administrative duties (let’s keep in mind there is a deficit— lousy So Cal economy not withstanding- the bubble bursting could be seen on the horizon by 2005— tell me they didn’t sign a five year lease in 05 or beyond on an expensive building when a crash was looming ahead?- believe it or not I actually DO sit around with a loved one from So Cal and we actually discuss real estate in So Cal, the market, world economy, US real estate, etc.- yeah, I’m a dork… where was I?) So there’s a deficit. It is mentioned while they are discussing problems (possibly alluding to a reason for Mark to step down?) then the guy they put in charge is the one who has been taking care of admin duties during the time the deficit happened? And Mark is the one without the proper leadership? They could very well be right. It just doesn’t seem to be the logical step if any lack of fiscal responsibility led to the concerns.
And I’m with RT. I don’t see why someone at another church should be paying for a deficit at a sister church (especially as in So Cal, there are LOTS of people with money, though for now they are not sitting pretty). Hey, i know, maybe CJ can give them some of his royalties from his books? Problem solved. (I’d tell you I was being fascetious then but i don’t know how to spell it.) And while I do agree that it makes sense that since they didn’t have say over how it is spent, they shouldn’t be left holding the bag. HOWEVER, maybe this craziness where they fund things without having any say in the matter may make them wake up and come to the conclusion that something is not right in Denmark…. er, San Diego.
“If Lauterbach is not qualified or ‘gifted’ to be a senior pastor, then why in the WORLD would they think he was equipped to TRAIN the NEXT senior pastor?”
Don’t know why I didn’t see that, Guy. It’s so clear!
Btw, Dorothy, I’m glad you’re here. The chem/bio PHD comment made me smile. At 42 I’m finally getting my undergrad so I’ll never (Lord willing) be one to criticize one for not having any formal education. Neither am I one who would criticize someone for having lots of it. (I take that back, there are plenty of days I go a little nuts over some professors who are overly educated in academia yet incompetent in the non academic world. But that’s only my opinion and not “truth”.)
julie, you know Arie and Marilyn, too?! DEAR people. Dear. They are no longer with SGM. I think they were too beaten down, too broken. And there is no way many people who were at their church in Chester would EVER feel loved and cared for and included at Covenant Fellowship. It was heart breaking to watch.
RT, thank you for the Spurgeon info! I just couldn’t believe it when I read it and wonder how many in the congregation that night were Berean like and went home to google Spurgeon to see if Shank was rewriting history or not. (Being a Berean in the google age sure is easy!)
December 10th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Stunned,
Your comment was so funny! I love your humor!
And you made some excellent points, too. I hadn’t thought of how strange it is that the one they now think is “gifted enough to be a senior pastor” is actually the one who was at the helm of finances as the church ran up debt. Plus, as Guy said, why is someone “not qualified” to be a senior pastor suddenly then QUALIFIED to turn around and TEACH the new guy is is supposedly MORE QUALIFIED for the job?
I think by now we all know that what Steve Shank SAID at that family meeting could not possibly be the whole story. It could not possibly be the whole truth.
It’s just like the Keith Jacob story, in that respect. There you had a guy who was supposedly NOT stepping down for any sin issue. But then he cited “fear of man” and pride as his sins. And then from things that others wrote to share here, it sounded like at least part of his former congregation was upset with him about things he’d done that they’d thought were “sinful,” and that this was why he was asked to step down.
Yet from the pulpit that day, it was the same spiel. “Lack of gifting necessary to be a senior pastor…NOT a sin issue…”
Yesterday, someone else tried to post a comment in which he questioned why this site was here. He said that in his opinion, we were all “just unhappy with the way that a church has chosen to do things,” and why can’t we just leave SGM alone and “live and let live”? It was worded more sarcastically and patronizingly than that, and since I didn’t feel like feeding the trolls, I didn’t post that comment.
But I got to thinking about that. *IS* it true that as long as SGMers are happy with their church, all these things, like the strange “repositionings” of pastors, are nobody’s business, and we should just “live and let live” and move on?
I’ve often told the “SGM-Happy” folks who write me, “If you’re happy where you are and things are going well for you, stay there. Knock yourself out and enjoy it!” And in many respects, I genuinely mean that.
So on the one hand, our new unpublished commenter has a point.
But on the other hand, aren’t we all part of the Body of Christ? Shouldn’t we be concerned, even if we’re not part of a particular group?
What some people may not grasp here is that I REALLY DON’T CARE if the powers that be within SGM want to reposition their pastors and move them around like so many chess piece. And, here’s another thing, I DON’T NECESSARILY THINK THAT THIS PROCESS IS ‘WRONG.’
What I *DO* have a problem with, though, is the lack of openness and honesty in the way they work out this process.
If a group of people having a discussion on a blog can easily pinpoint a bunch of inconsistencies in the stories that Steve Shank presents in these family meetings when the firings happen, then it makes me wonder how much more dissembling might be taking place that Shank was able to hide.
And I find these lies, this lack of openness, highly disturbing!
Why do SGM authorities believe that the congregations most affected by their “repositionings” cannot handle the truth of what REALLY went on? Why was Mark Lauterbach’s year-long period of evaluation a SECRET that “99%” of the congregation knew nothing about? If one were going to evaluate a senior pastor, wouldn’t it make sense to involve his congregation in the process? Wouldn’t the congregation NEED to be involved, as they would be the ones who would be able to provide an accurate snapshot of how the pastor was doing?
Here’s a question for CJ Mahaney and all the boys at headquarters (as well as for all the “SGM-Happy” folks and those who keep wanting to attack this blog):
HOW DO LIES AND A LACK OF OPENNESS HONOR GOD?
December 10th, 2008 at 10:13 am
hi kris… i couldn’t agree with you more that submission to one’s authorities is biblical and right and godly. and of course, that assumes it’s an authority, albeit human and flawed, but nonetheless established by God and marked by humility, love, wisdom, and forthrightness. i don’t think i was clear on that in my post (#44) so thanks for your post.
greetings stunned… arie is no longer with SGM? he is still listed on staff at the chesapeake church… perhaps that website is not updated?
December 10th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Ummm…regarding my comment about Eric being administrational. It had NOTHING to do with finances. Eric took care of orchestrating the setup of the church for Sundays, ya know: the sound team, greeting team, worship team, announcements, that type of stuff.
Sorry for the confusion. Please keep in mind that Eric has been a pastor at the San Diego church for at least 8 years. This doesn’t appear to me to be the typical; we’re replacing a non-submissive pastor with a submissive Pastor’s College pastor. Eric didn’t grow up SGM, didn’t become a Christian in SGM, is married to a wife with a higher college degree than him (he has a BA, she a PHD), he’s attended Westminster Seminary in Escondido, CA AND his hair has been an a consistently hippie-like length for about 4 years. He’s not bald. (Bad joke).
While the church was in the process of looking for a building to lease, the congregation (I was there) was VERY involved. To the point where care-groups toured the possible facilities together to view the places and pray together. We could have done it independently of the care group, but praying together and voicing our concerns among the care group, just made sense. Praying together over choices like this made sense. The pastors, all three, were VERY forthcoming with every detail of the process. Even to a point, where they talked (from the pulpit) about not proceeding with finding a building and looking for another space like the high school to continue renting.
How the 60K deficit occurred, upon pondering this some more: I take back the economy thing (although I’m sure it had some to do with it) – the 60K deficit probably came more from 18 months of paying for the lease when the church was unable to use the building, b/c the city of Rancho Bernardo/San Diego tried to stop the churches conditional use permit (which if they had succeeded, would have been detrimental for ALL San Diego churches). The San Diego church was stuck in a legal battle during the 18 months. Thus they paid rent on the lease AND rent on the local High School. Thus, the 60k deficit.
December 10th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I am so confused. What is a change in leadership supposed to do about the $60k deficit? Maybe they are unrelated, but the timing seems they are blaming Mark Lauterbach for the deficit.
Also why would they hire a new pastor where they have to train him how to preach?
December 10th, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Dorothy-
Thanks for the info-it’s nice to have a perspective of someone who was there.
I guess my question is this? If you were still there, how would you feel about Steve showing up and dismissing your pastor for “lack” of gifting to be a Senior pastor? Do you agree that Mark is a good preacher but not a good Sr. Pastor?
Peace-mm
December 10th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Hi SGMFlorida –
The San Diego church hasn’t hired a new pastor; they moved their associate pastor up. Eric has been preaching for 8 years, but Mark, being the head pastor, preaches more. Eric has actually been at the San Diego church longer than Mark.
Why’d the mention the 60K thing at the meeting to? My guess, and ONLY a guess, as I don’t attend there anymore, is that they wanted the members to also know about it, and it makes sense to talk about it at a members meeting more than at a regular Sunday Morning Meeting.
I think there’s a lot of confusion, as other church pastoral transitions keep being mentioned, and all the facts/histories are being mashed together. :smile:
December 10th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
it seems that moving an associate pastor up is less obvious or threatening or whatever than simply brining in someone entirely new…that is exactly what they are planning to do at my former church – bring in a new guy, as Assoc pastor, and I think move out the SR pastor at some point in the near future.
That pastor has faithfully served the church for 27 years! I don’t think he is unsubmissive to SGM, after all he did go looking for them and agree to be adopted in. But still, he is trained outside of SGM, highly intelligent, older than the apostle in both physical years and spiritual years…who would be easier ot control? The new guy who used to go to church with the apostle or my former Sr pastor? Potential damage control I think…not that my former pastor has given any indication he would “rebel” but did any of these other guys??
It’s sad. I’m praying for the displaced pastors. And I hope more of them who are considering joining SGM will find these blogs and have access to the behind the scenes stories, something my pastor didn’t have access to when the church decided to be adopted in and began the process 6 years ago. Maybe we will see a decline in adoptions, hopefully we will.
I’ve always wondered – how well do the church plants fare over time? Is the actual growth in SGM or is it all sheep-swapping? Are there any true conversions taking place? It seems New Testament and Book of Acts church growth is about people being saved, preaching of the gospel, and increase in numbers, but I don’t know that is happening in SGM.
I know the calvinisitc doctrine of course is going to limit the public altar calls, etc…not to get into a discussion of that, but shouldn’t even a calvinistic or reformed church show some indication of conversions and people coming to know the Lord? I can think of only two in my SGM church the past three years. Of course there might be more, but they were not public. It always encouraged me to see people coming to know the Lord – this public profession of faith – maybe that is the Baptist in me still
December 10th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Hi Musicman!
My question in 04/05 when Shank showed up to announce Craig leaving for Dallas, was why are we being given a stranger to lead us (Mark Lauterbach) and why isn’t Dan or Eric being made our senior pastor?
Then Mark came, and after hearing him preach, and seeing how WILLING Dan and Eric were to have him lead, I understood COMPLETELY why Mark was placed as a head pastor. We were the luckiest congregation in SGM to get Mark.
However, (and again I’m not attending the San Diego church right now) I believe that there is MORE than meets the eye in the current situation, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE understand that Mark was EXCELLENT as a preacher, BUT, I always kind of felt as though Eric was much better (and Dan for that matter) at actually ministering to me and my family. (I wish I could give an example, but due to not wanting to completely reveal who I am, I’m not) Mark was always a little distant, and not as warm as Eric and Dan and their wives. However, I never faulted him for this, or liked Mark less for this. I just think it was his way; that 30 some odd years teaching/pastoring in more stoic environments (He was non-charismatic before), AND his Princeton education where ingrained into him. In a charismatic/we-believe-in-the-Holy-Spirit-for-today-thus-you-get-a-hug-environment, he was not as approachable as Dan an Eric.
I personally am wondering if this story has more to it than meets the eye – and it maybe be SO far away from the speculation on this blog entry. Simply put: Mark’s in his upper 50’s. He’s starting to have grandkids, grandkids and family who are on the East Coast, maybe Mark WANTS the demotion so that he can begin to have not as many commitments in his “work” life, and he can enjoy the prime of his life with his wife and kids. Maybe 35 years of preaching has caught up to him and tired him out. Maybe he wants to right a book. Who knows? Maybe there are more private things going on?
So as a former member of the San Diego church, honestly, if I was sitting in that meeting- I’d be ecstatic that we still had all three pastors, that we weren’t losing Mark, and that Eric was being promoted. And the announcement of the 60K deficit would not have been a shock, as while I was there, the church was always open about the leasing process and the search for the building, so I’d imagine that they were just as open for awhile about the debt. I just would have been annoyed at listening to Shank, as he speaks VERY slowly and I get bored fast.
December 10th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
That’s interesting-I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and at length. thanks
December 10th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Hi Juli!
The SGM is not a reformed church, they just say they are. Their lack of missions and evangelism is one of the first give-aways.
Just because one affirms TULIP doesn’t mean that they identify with the tenants of the reformed faith.
I dunno what they are, but it is a hybrid, a mishmash, a cafeteria line of American theology and church traditions.
A true undersanding of
December 10th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
whoops….note to self: don’t push the little ‘submit’ button until done.
anyway….of reformed faith leads one into a freedom to share the gospel with boldness and no guilt and fear. The reformed churches we have been in are not just committed to election, but see themselves as part of the work of God throughout history, committed to the evangelism of the world. We read the godly authors of old. We rewrite music for the poetry of the church (hymns). We celebrate creeds and catechisms. We join with the rest of the Body of Christ in God’s work.
Please don’t judge us calvinists by SGM, that is like judging charismatics by examining just a couple of whacked churches that claim to be charismatics. Their modernistic view of their own self-importance and superiority, that excludes the rest of us in Christ, is not calvinism.
December 10th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
So…on the rating thing.
If we vote for ourself, will that give away our view of ourselves theologically?
Say, if you follow worm theology, and you get all 1 star votes and you can vote for yourself, giving yourself all 1 stars, and then you are happy–you are affirming that nothing you do is good?
But if you exult in the imputed righteousness of Christ, do we give ourselves all 5′s? Then insist everyone else do the same. Then we feel happy because we are perfected in Christ?
Too much Nyquil, I think. But it made me smile, anyway.
December 10th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Hi Stunned, the Mangrums are still with SGM in MD. https://www.chesapeakechurch.com/about/leadership/ariemangrum.html
I got a little excited when you said they had left but they’re still there. Yep, that is one annointed couple that I’d love to see what God could do with if they were absolutely free in his grace!
December 10th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
DG, in #73, you said the following: “Please keep in mind that Eric has been a pastor at the San Diego church for at least 8 years. This doesn’t appear to me to be the typical; we’re replacing a non-submissive pastor with a submissive Pastor’s College pastor.”
First of all, Eric was at pastors college in 2000-2001 and has NOT been at SD, as a pastor, for AT LEAST 8 years. It’s not yet been 8 years. Also, I don’t think he went right into being a pastor when he left pastors college.
Second, after Lauterbach spent that year at pastors college, was he not “submissive” enough? If he was not, as you say, a “submissive pastors college pastor,” then why was he put in as a senior pastor right out of pastors college?
Dorothy, do you realize how this sounds?
December 10th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
What’s this all about –
Sorry if I mislead, guess my math is a bit off????? Let’s just say my BA isn’t in mathematics… but thanks for pointing out my error… :smile:
As I understand, from being a member – Eric started to visit the church, became a member, and felt led to be a pastor and was sent to the PC, and came back a pastor right after he was done at the PC. Maybe I’m wrong….as I started to attend in 03???? Maybe he was a Pastoral Intern first, then a pastor? The information I provided is what I believe to be true, as it’s what I had been told by other church members when I first started….
What I meant by “This doesn’t appear to me to be the typical; we’re replacing a non-submissive pastor with a submissive Pastor’s College pastor,” Is the following:
As a member of Sovereign Grace Ministries for the past 7 years, I took an interest in reading Kris’s sight starting about last December. (FYI: I prefer the blog set up, as the board set up was WAY too confusing for me!) So I’ve read about all the different scenarios of pastoral switcher-oo’s and demotions, and as Kris said “firings.” So I DO see that there does seem to be an odd replacing of pastors across the SGM churches, and I do see that the apostolic team seems to be set up more like a Corporation then a church.
What I was saying, from knowing both pastors and their families, and having current contact with many of the current members, is that I don’t think that the San Diego Church’s situation is the same as other situations seem to be. I don’t think that Mark is being replaced b/c he doesn’t agree with/listen to Shank (non-submissive). And I don’t think that Mark is being replaced by Eric b/c Eric agrees with (submissive) Shank completely. I probably should have explained that more strait forward, to avoid confusion. Sorry about that.
December 10th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Dorothy,
First of all, you are to be very commended for reading this site for so long. A year! When I came to the site as a 12-year member of SGM, I was repulsed by what I read. I was angry and judgemental at the people I saw here. Then, as soon as the Lord took the scales away from my eyes, I was able to see the abuses towards my husband, the abuses we were taught and the “cultural” things that are so pervasive and so extra-biblical. But, gee, while I was a SGM member, I could not come to this site.
I’d love to know more of your ‘story.’ You say you’re no longer in the SD church. Are you still in SGM? Are you “committed to the movement” as I used to say about myself? Etc…I am not trying to be negative or argumentative. I really would love to “draw you out” a little more to get to know you.
Anyway, I digress….
You are right, Eric was at SD church and was part of the worship team before he was at the pastors college. I know that part. So, yes, he has been at the SD church for longer than 8 years, but I went on that vein because I didn’t want you to have that wrong.
Then, after I posted that, I got to thinking…it doesn’t really matter. I was splitting hairs, wasn’t I?
Because Lauterbach spent most of his adult life as a pastor and, according to Steve Shank who spoke to a very large SGM audience at a regional conference, he was extremely gifted as a senior pastor and was very successful in his prior church.
To me, the fact that within 1 1/2 years of putting him there and proclaiming his worthiness, he was ‘evaluating’ him. That’s bizarre to me. Truly, bizarre.
And, I guess my reason for pointing out that Eric has not been a pastor for 8 years is that he’s hardly got experience of any sort that could even be compared to Mark’s experience….based on what Shank said back in 05.
It’s very convoluted. It just seems that Steve would be better off to just tell the truth when he fires senior pastors. Really, I wish he would. I think the church body would benefit by truth rather than the “Shank Spin.”
December 10th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
What”s it all about -
I was at the Together O5′ (or was it Together 05′ in 06′? – I had been at both) and Mark spoke at one main session, as did Shank.
Mark had been at the San Diego church from around I think August of 04 (I’d have to check my sermon notes to confirm it…) and I LOVED his sermons. But it does seem strange that Shank would suddenly start to evaluate about a year and a half ago, UNLESS, maybe after you’re installed as a new pastor, there’s an evaluation point???? Anyone out there know?
“he was extremely gifted as a senior pastor and was very successful in his prior church. To me, the fact that within 1 1/2 years of putting him there and proclaiming his worthiness, he was ‘evaluating’ him.”
But I can see your point clearly. It DOES seem odd that in 2004 Shank would brag about Mark’s giftings, only to 4 years later, seemly do a reverse. In fact at first, I thought about this, but then I was fine with it.
The thing is, I DO think Mark is an EXTREMELY gifted speaker – BUT, maybe I wasn’t the only attendee that found him to be a little distant in day to day ministry…(per my above post – please read if you haven’t, as I’m afraid this paragraph could come off as me not liking Mark, when that is simply NOT the case)? And maybe the other person(s) actually inquired about it because they were offended by it, where as I just dismissed it to be who he was and his personality (look ma, those psychology & society classes in college paid off…)? I can only speculate. That’s all this is, is a speculation, esp as I haven’t been to the San Diego Church in a bit. But because of my personal experience, I guess it’s easier for me than others to digest Shank’s turn around, as Shank and the rest of the upper leadership, would have know Mark to be an excellent speaker and a scholastically talented man when they appointed him as a new pastor, but would not have had experience with his day to day ministry until he had been in the position for awhile.
What’s this about –
Thanks for the clarification…I wanted to cry when I saw your reply, as I’m not out here to make enemies or start fights, it’s just the San Diego church is VERY dear to my heart….and I don’t want people to think badly or wrongly of Eric, Mark, or their families. (I don’t think at this point anyone has – I just want to, I guess you would call it, preemptively defend their honor?…).
” It just seems that Steve would be better off to just tell the truth when he fires senior pastors. Really, I wish he would. I think the church body would benefit by truth rather than the “Shank Spin.”
I completely agree. Maybe I’d stay awake then…(just a joke to those who enjoy Steve Shank’s sermons) (insert snoozing smilely face here.)
My Story -
Umm…not quite ready for that yet. But I will tell you that I still am in SGM. BUT, I spent my youth and college years, and early 20′s NOT in SGM, and had the most amazingly horrid time in a Non-Denom and an Assemblies of God. (I’m not knocking Assemblies of God, I’ve had a wonderful experience at another Assemblies of God as a visitor, so I know that they are not all the same, but one bad apple ruined it for me…).
Ya know how every now and then Kris will state that there are people with in SGM that are content, happy, and growing, but that they may be unknowing of the larger leadership picture? (Maybe it wasn’t Kris, but the general theme seems to come up every now and then…)
Well, I would count myself as the first part. I’m content, happy, and growing. I am not in leadership (okay, let me rephrase that) I am not married to someone in leadership. BUT, I am aware that recent changes in the set up of the Sovereign Grace Ministries Leadership/Apostolic team aka the “corporate” division are a bit, ummm…interesting?
I love my church, I love my leaders, I HAVE had disagreements with my current churches leaders and the San Diego churches leaders, but have never been placed under church discipline or been black listed. (Disagreements being Theological, and ones I would say, but I’m not interested in debating theology right now). I’ve actually had leadership and care group leaders be very respectful in the disagreements. The only disagreement that ever went sour, I can definitely see in retrospect that it was my fault, as I was DEFINITELY in attack mode, and completely ungracious.
So why do I stick around? Well, because time changes everything. I’m committed to see change from the INSIDE of my church through prayer. One of my absolute FAVORITE sermons from Mark Lauterbach was on the power of extraordinary prayer. It was taught from Esther. Sometimes I’m saddened by the seaming lack of prayer with in not just my churches, but this generation. Mark aptly decided to cover the Exile by taking the church through Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel, Isaiah, and Esther, during the San Diego churches transition through the finding a new building/leasing process. He drew a perfect comparison between the end of the exile and the beginning of the building of the wall and the establishment of the city. He pointed out that it would not have been possible without the extraordinary prayer of some.
So I’m choosing to PRAY for change and for the Holy Spirit to move the people in my church and to move in leadership throughout ALL of SGM. And I’ve decided that the best way to know what to pray for is by being in the midst of it all.
So that’s why I’m still in SGM, but also why I’m not hostile to this site. Commentary and criticism are needed for everything we do! I am not a “Sheeple” because I take what my church says, I take what you say, and I take what the Bible says and what I feel God’s voice inside my head says…and I come to my own conclusion. I also recognize that my own conclusions are not infallible. And what I think now, may be DRASTICALLY different then what I think when I’m 80. But one think will remain the same – my end destination.
Thanks for asking about my story.
December 10th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Dorothy,
I’m so glad you shared a bit about yourself with us. I’m also glad that your SG experience has been so good for you, and that you have avoided some of the common pitfalls that others have talked about.
Believe it or not, I’m also praying for SGM. Daily. I really hope that someday, sites like this one will be completely redundant.
December 10th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I stopped reading at about post 35 to write my .02.
I suspect that they will keep Lauterback on salary until the $60k deficit is met.
Then they will fire him (or they allow him to leave).
They are only keeping him because the people love him and if he goes, the fear is that the people will go and therefore they will not be able to recoup the $60K.
Like I said, just my .02.
December 10th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Remnant,
I love your name – it holds great promise.
I agree with you. I wish the people that loved him would speak up and challenge what is happening. It seems that the pastors that get the boot aren’t able to. I do wonder what kind of contract they sign. So many get the boot for the reason of someone else being more gifted and not one comes forward and challenges it – except Larry Tomczak & even that got shut down. It really makes one wonder.
December 10th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
statistically, it is odd that in the last year alone, (last 6 months really) two churches out of 64? that WE know of have replaced long standing pastors for the same reason.
And, add my church to that mix, as an upcoming one in my opinion. So am I the only one to find this disturbing? Problem is, unless you have moved about the country a bit on these church plants (or are reading this blog) you are oblivious to the big picture of SGM family of churches. You simply don’t know what is going on and would never think anything would be wrong.
If it had not been for the one family who came to our church from San Diego church I would have never even known how other SGM churches operated. (no kids at care groups, parents attending all youth meetings, etc.) I didn’t think there even WAS a “prototype SGM church” if you want to call it that. Then I realized it was more of a franchise of churches.
This particular family knew several families from other churches- as many of you guys on here do as well since you’ve been in SGM for years, or have moved about yourselves. But other than them, nobody in our church knew anyone else in SGM until Fusion, and even then, only a handful of relationships were made that I was aware of that are still taking place among the “sheep” that is.
So I say all this to just explain how easy it is for some of us to remain i the dark when it comes to the bigger picture, esp new churches adopted in, and churches not on the East or West coasts where most of the churches are located, and both situations describe my former church. I was clueless, still am in a lot of ways!
December 10th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
“So I’m choosing to PRAY for change and for the Holy Spirit to move the people in my church and to move in leadership throughout ALL of SGM. And I’ve decided that the best way to know what to pray for is by being in the midst of it all.
So that’s why I’m still in SGM, but also why I’m not hostile to this site. Commentary and criticism are needed for everything we do! I am not a “Sheeple” because I take what my church says, I take what you say, and I take what the Bible says and what I feel God’s voice inside my head says…and I come to my own conclusion. I also recognize that my own conclusions are not infallible. And what I think now, may be DRASTICALLY different then what I think when I’m 80. But one think will remain the same – my end destination.”
Wow, Dorothy…that’s IMPRESSIVE!
If more SG members had that attitude, this site, as well as the others, wouldn’t exist. “Commentary and criticism are needed for everything we do!” – that’s an absolute fact! This is precisely why SGM is in the mess they’re in. They have a system in place that squelches “commentary and criticism”, rather than encourage it.
“I am not a “Sheeple” because I take what my church says, I take what you say, and I take what the Bible says and what I feel God’s voice inside my head says…and I come to my own conclusion.” – GOOD FOR YOU! You’re one of the few in SGM that I know of personally that actually thinks for themselves.
God give us more SGM’ers like Dorothy!
December 10th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
Dorothy, thank you so much for sharing. It’s always best to understand better where people “are.” It’s good you’re here. I am grateful you strive to keep an open mind.
Juli, your comments about people being familiar with other churches is very true based on my experience. We didn’t realize how many things were wrong till we were members of other sgm churches through moving to a different area. I mean, the problems started back at CLC way back, but they just continued and took on their own flavor in each church we were part of.
Also, the “apostles” seem to have different ways they rule their territory. At least, perhaps, they have different “keywords” they use at different times. For example, Mr Shank’s seeming affinity for the reason of “lack of gifting.”
If you think of that, it’s really a genius thing. People who don’t question “authority” are fine with that. Gifting can mean at least several dozen things depending on your denomination and the role of the pastor. For example, a senior pastor is not necessarily a care pastor and doesn’t necessarily need to be able to well care for people. Likewise, a senior pastor also doesn’t have to be an evangelist because there are other pastors who are gifted at different things. In Covenant Life, there has been (not sure if there still is, because I’m no longer there) a pastor whose “emphasis” was prayer. Gee, if I could sit around all day long and pray, I’d be a pastor! Oh yeah, I’m female. I would NOT be a pastor. Who isn’t gifted in prayer? I mean, anyone could be if they wanted to. Oh yeah, he also had a “sphere” of care groups. He was extremely low-ranking in the counsel/care department. Oh well..he was gifted at prayer.
So, really, what I’d love to know is what the specific areas of “gifting” these men lack. But there is no answer for that and how dare you ask.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:12 am
I posted this on the Patiarchy entry, but It should also be here:
When I first started at SGM (back when it was PDI and I “served” the youth group), we had a few teens that came without their parents – the parents attended other churches and maybe one that didn’t attend.
That all changed with when the person who was the leader had to “step down” because of “family and work commitments” – the REAL reason was that the Pastors (remember, Steve Shank was the Sr Pastor of this church at the time) saw “sin” in that person’s heart because his 3 year old didn’t address the Pastors correctly, and the person was told that his 3 year old was acting the way she was because of sin his his heart and he needed to get his family straight. The told him he didn’t have the “gifting” to be a pastor (some of this sould be in the other blog post because it relates) They quickly moved someone else into the role. Of course, they had that person lined up before the “sin” issue ever came up.
Notice similiarities – 1) Steve Shank involved in both (he had one of his pastors be the “hatchet man” in this case) 2) the whole “gifting” thing. 3) the posts about how parents are expected to spank their children if they don’t address a pastor in the right way are true – sgm has not changed their tune 4) the parent is accused of sin if a child doesn’t respond correctly
This is another case of me knowing the person and they did have the gifting. I really started to open my eyes after that. This person ended up pastoring another church and is still a pastor to this day. SGM didn’t feel this person had the “gifting”, yet they are successful at what they do to this day.
I can see it really boils down to loyality.
December 11th, 2008 at 11:27 am
I guess they didn’t have what it took to be an SGM pastor – aka a blind sheep following a malevolent shepherd. :mad:
I’m not a parent, but I guess those calling out “sin” in the lives of others have never had disobedient children. Bull! I wonder what they would do if someone accused them of “sin” for their children misbehaving.
Could they be removed because of that? Of course not! The person attempting to call them out would be accused of not being submissive! Seems to me that a church should have a leader, but that leader should also be able to be scrutinized by their sheep.
December 11th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
synkronicity, completely my bad in regard to the Mangrums. I saw their son and was talking with him and certain things he said led me to believe that they were NOT in SGM any longer. Sorry Guys for that complete inaccuracy on my part. And thanks for pointing that out to me.
“AND his hair has been an a consistently hippie-like length for about 4 years. He’s not bald. (Bad joke).”
Actually, Dorothy, it was a good joke. I really appreciate the humor. Thank you.
“While the church was in the process of looking for a building to lease, the congregation (I was there) was VERY involved. To the point where care-groups toured the possible facilities together to view the places and pray together. We could have done it independently of the care group, but praying together and voicing our concerns among the care group, just made sense. Praying together over choices like this made sense.”
Wow, that’s amazing and so cool. How awesome to be part of something like that.
“How the 60K deficit occurred, upon pondering this some more: I take back the economy thing (although I’m sure it had some to do with it) – the 60K deficit probably came more from 18 months of paying for the lease when the church was unable to use the building, b/c the city of Rancho Bernardo/San Diego tried to stop the churches conditional use permit (which if they had succeeded, would have been detrimental for ALL San Diego churches). The San Diego church was stuck in a legal battle during the 18 months. Thus they paid rent on the lease AND rent on the local High School. Thus, the 60k deficit.”
What a shame! That’s so sad. I”m sorry to hear they went through that. In light of that, it’s amazing it’s only a 60K deficit.
” I just think it was his way; that 30 some odd years teaching/pastoring in more stoic environments (He was non-charismatic before), AND his Princeton education where ingrained into him. In a charismatic/we-believe-in-the-Holy-Spirit-for-today-thus-you-get-a-hug-environment, he was not as approachable as Dan an Eric.”
Wow! You got a hug from your pastors?! I think I was in the home of every one of my pastors and one in my home, shared homegroup with a couple of ‘em, taught ALL their kids in Sunday School, babysat for them and went to countless counseling sessions, and except for one who was forced to step down, I NEVER got a hug from any of them. I have found pastors I know from Princeton to be much warmer. I think either I found the cold hearted SGM church, or you scored with a warm So Cal one. Either way, that’s great it was that way for you. Actually, now that I think about it, I’ve had hugs from SGM pastors in other regions as well.
Dorothy, you’ve been reading for so long and stayed quiet? I’m becoming more and more impressed with you! I wish I had your self control. I def wish we knew each other in “the real world”. I think we’d get along just fine.
“look ma, those psychology & society classes in college paid off…)”
Dorothy, you’re cracking me up!
December 11th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Stunned,
I had gotten numerous hugs from all our previous pastors(who all were mostly real human beings and didn’t “think too highly of themselves”), except the newest one who had come new from PC a few years ago. That’s when things starting changing alot and I never got to know the new pastor at all. The other pastors had been around basically since the church started and everyone knew them, nobody really knew the one that is there now.
December 11th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Maverick wrote:
I’m not a parent, but I guess those calling out “sin” in the lives of others have never had disobedient children. Bull! I wonder what they would do if someone accused them of “sin” for their children misbehaving.
Could they be removed because of that? Of course not! The person attempting to call them out would be accused of not being submissive! Seems to me that a church should have a leader, but that leader should also be able to be scrutinized by their sheep.
Me: The person that got to be the “hatchet” in this case decided “he was called to go into business to model the kingdom of God to the world”. In truth, he was removed because of a rebellious adult child. I think I had posted that before. Once again, Steve Shank was Sr Pastor (see a pattern?). In Steve Shank’s case, it’s all about his perception (which is no way based in reality)
I can’t remember who posted about SGM leadership’s lack of knowledge of church history, but I wanted to bring up an example of, yep, Steve Shank’s lack of knowledge. Steve had gone on a “mission” to european churchs (probably looking at who they could suck into the fold). And he proceeded to talk about how ungodly Europe was and how screwed up the theology was and how they had gotten away from the “faith of the ealy church fathers” and his example was that he went to the old churches and the had pictures of Demons on the stain glass windows! Most of the church bought it hook, link and sinker.
The reality of the situation was that when the pictures and stained glass windows of demons and hell where made, the general population couldn’t read, so pictures where used to make a point and teach about the dangers of hell, how demons where portrayed in the bible, etc. etc.
December 11th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I remember a while back when on this site it was discussed that Shank was no longer on the apostolic team – did anyone ever some up with a theory on that one? Not even sure what his offical title is – but even in my region he showed up at things – maybe the apostle for this are was still “in training?”
Does there seem to be a sort of progression here? Has anyone ever looked at where exactly people have gone, as they have moved around? Maybe there is a pattern there – I just know that a flow chart would come in handy right about now to keep track of all the moves, sons of SGM pastors being promoted to pastors, who got moved where and when, and what happened to the churches as a result. Youd’ think SGM who know all this already would find it odd themselves, but I guess they don’t.
What qualifies someone as an apostle anyway? Are all the apostles also Sr pastors? Or are there expections? If anyone could do a breakdown, I’d be interested..
December 12th, 2008 at 9:13 am
[...] I have been reading over at SGMSurvivors.com (if you haven’t checked out that site, now is a good time to do so!) and I’ve, once again, been struck by SGM’s lack of care and accountability toward their members. Kris posted an email from someone in the San Diego church, where it was just announced that the sr. pastor would be stepping down into the associate pastor’s role, and the associate pastor would be stepping into the sr. pastor role. (You can read the post here.) [...]