“SGMnot’s” Story

[Kris says:  The following was submitted by "SGMnot":]

In 1993 our daughter was sexually molested by the fourteen year old son of a close family friend from CLC, while he was babysitting for us. It was a week before her 3rd birthday. [This was about 6 years after exCLCer’s case]  I thank God I had taught our daughter what “good touch, bad touch” is, so she could tell us and possibly protect herself or others from sex abuse. The morning after this happened she came into our bedroom and told us. We were in shock, but for her sake remained calm, and asked her a few questions to verify. [Excuse my bluntness] He had taken off both of their pants and underwear, laid on top of her, fondled her, and French-kissed her. He stopped at this point and did not penetrate her. Her reaction at the time of the attack was to not move or cry out–she was in complete terror. We immediately called the police. We knew it was the law to report any sexual abuse committed against a minor. 

The first thing out of the pastor’s mouth, when we called him was, “Don’t call the police.” When we told him we already had, he communicated that these “things” should be handled in the church, and definitely made us to feel that he was displeased with us going outside the church to the secular authorities for this crime! The pastor called the father and the boy did confess that morning, after denying it repeatedly. The pastor immediately got on the phone with the police trying to arrange for the family to be able to turn the boy into police, rather than a police car to come to their house and embarrass them. From that point on, we felt that to the pastors, this crisis was all about the perpetrator and his family, to keep his identity secret and rally around him and his family, caring for THEM and counseling them as they navigated through the secular legal system and the crisis WE had caused by turning him in. 

We did have one meeting, within a couple of days of the abuse, with the pastor and his wife. They commiserated with us. We felt the gist of the meeting was “yes, this is terrible, it is OK for us to be angry and hurt for a few days or weeks, but after that you need to forgive and forget”! We were told not to tell our care group or anyone. And not talk to the boy and his family. Besides a brief phone call or two after all of this and the eventual “reconciliation” meeting, 6 months later, with that family and the pastor, we had NO counseling or follow-up care for us or our daughter. We had several close family members in CLC and we had close friends who LIVED with us at this time and we couldn’t even tell them! Essentially, we were on our own with all the deep grief, anger, and feelings of violation. We walked through this horrible crisis completely alone, with close family and friends and our care group all around us, having NO idea what we were going through!! God alone was our refuge and we had each other. 

A week or so after the molestation, one of the other pastors called and shared how sorry he was for what we were going through and then asked me to write a letter of leniency, so that this boy would not go to jail and just get counseling [exactly what happened to exCLCer’s mom]. I agreed, mostly because he was only 14 and it was a first offense. At the time, I was extremely vulnerable with the grief of what had happened to our daughter and what this pastor said meant a lot to me, but looking back now I feel manipulated by his words to make sure that I wrote that letter. What if I had refused? [like exCLCer’s mom] Would we have been excommunicated? 

We did not know and could not find out any details from the perpetrator on the molestation, even through the pastor, until the meeting 6 months later. In other words, we did not know if there had been any penetration or how much fondling there had been—it was torture for me as mom and as a woman to not know. I feel that my emotional needs were given “backseat” status to the other family’s privacy and care. We were not equipped by appropriate psychological counseling or advice on how to parent a victim of sexual abuse. Our daughter struggled as a little 3 year old to forgive this teenager’s crime against her. She had nightmares for months afterwards. Many months later, we went for prayer to this pastor and another, and they did pray for her, but they said the nightmares “might” not be from the sexual molestation, directly minimizing my concerns, even though nightmares are a known effect of sexual abuse! 

This is not over. She is now 21 and is a committed Christian, by God’s grace.  BUT she STILL has trouble sleeping alone. She STILL has had seasons of night terrors. She also has other EMOTIONAL SCARS directly related to the molestation and has pursued psychological counseling, now as an adult. Although, we have forgiven and prayed for this boy, now an adult member of CLC, last I heard, the results of his crime on our daughter may be a lifelong struggle for her to overcome!  

I share this with my heart breaking: for her, for us, and for all those others who have been traumatized by the sex abuse cases mishandled by SGM. And I wanted to share our story so that NO ONE from SGM could use our “case” as a supposed “well-handled” pastoral victory, since we mostly cooperated with their advice. AND I wanted everyone to know that the serious effects of any sexual molestation at any age are devastating to the victim and their family for many years. It doesn’t just “go away” after forgiving!  

We were in CLC for over 20 years and served as CGLs for over 5 years and only left a few years ago. We feel that “going public” with this story, that has been a secret sex abuse case in CLC, will perhaps help others to come forward with any other cases. We have not personally confronted the pastors about this, but after hearing exCLCer family’s HORRIFIC treatment by CLC, we felt that they do not deserve that respect. 

374 comments to “SGMnot’s” Story

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  1. BrokenHearted
    August 4th, 2011 at 9:42 am

    SGMNOT – I am so SO sorry for what your daughter and your family have gone through. :( It just breaks my heart to think of all these little ones who have been hurt by guys who are supposed to have been protecting them and taking care of them. :( :( :(

    This is why our “middle” church told parents not to let teen boys in the church babysit for them. I am not saying girls can’t, but it just seems to be the safer route to not let guys babysit alone. :(

    Sometimes I feel super sad for the guys who are doing these awful things too. ’cause yeah it’s vile and despicable and horrible, but there is also something OFF that would cause a guy (human) to even do these things to little kids. I know a guy who was acting out in “minor” ways towards a little girl (no sexual act towards a child is minor, but I say minor to differentiate between “tickling innapropriately” and other things…), and his parents “shamed” him and guilted him, and told him to never be alone with little girls, essentially making him feel like a monster (which I am not ENTIRELY against), except they never got him help. They never even told a pastor, let alone a therapist or someone who might be able to help him work through these feelings and desires. As far as I know he is “fine” now, but it hurts me that he carries this weight of “I am a horrible person” with no hope of change…

    But, SGMNOT I am praying for you and your daughter. I am sorry. I am sorry the church failed you. I am sorry the pastor failed you. I am sorry the people of God failed you. Because of y’all sharing your stories I am 1000% sure if anything ever happened to a kid of mine or a kid I knew I’d be shouting it from the rooftops. I was 100% before reading these, but now I know that no one could convince me to be “discerning” or “not gossip” in this sort of situation. :(

  2. sgmnot
    August 4th, 2011 at 9:48 am

    80sSGM: “At some point (later or ’85 or early ’86), a family friend, who was still a member of that church, acknowledged homosexual pedophilia (because he got caught) to the leaders of that church. The only thing ever told to us was that the man was forbidden to be friends with us — giving the indication that this was because we left the church; we were never told of the man’s sins.
    After we moved to another area, the man left that church and reconnected with us — even leading the youth group at one point with us having no knowledge of the sins he had confessed years earlier to the “elite” group of men called elders in our previous church.
    Eventually I found out AFTER having allowed this man to live in our home, that my son was among those this man confessed to abusing. How could this have been kept from us????”

    THIS is Outrageous!!! Do I understand correctly that this is another SGM sex abuse case? And SGM leaders did not tell you that your son was a victim? How old was your son at the time of the abuse? And what when did these leaders find out about it?

  3. A Kindred Spirit
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:04 am


    I’m outraged by your story, as well. Thank you for sharing and welcome to the site. I pray you and your son (and family) have healed and are at a better place in your lives today.

    Dear Lord, please get this perp out of the churches and in to jail!

  4. exCLCer
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:08 am

    SGMnot, I am so sorry for what you, your dauhter and your family went through. Please know, I UNDERSTAND, truly…..your heartbreak, concerns, greif, confusion, anger, atc, all of it, and I want you to know your feelings are VALID. And anyones attempt to invalidate your feelings, minimize the horror of the situation, or push you or manipulate you into a forced and rushed “forgiveness” is/was WRONG. You should have been supported, loved, and helped to seek justice in every form it comes in.

    I want to take the opportunity to point out that during my situation the church/pastors DID find out that it is, in fact, a crime, to not report child sexual abuse. So to see that 6 years later they were repeating the same practices of trying to stall/cover up/”handle internally” shows that they have no respect for the law, and intentionally broke it by SGMnots account of their tlling her not to go to the police. I guess they think their authority supercedes that of our country, and to hear this is APPALLING and DISGUSTS me.

    Yellow – (“@Exclcer, see what good you have done by sharing your story?”)

    my intentions exactly, to give courage to the “others” who might think like I did that they were the only ones to have to endure something of this nature, and to encourage them to come forward and see how much support for justice there really is in the world. And to expose the dangers children may be in still.

  5. Condemned No More
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:15 am

    I just want to say that, as new to this site, I would like to encourage the readers and contributors by both sharing an observation and by identifying an evidence of grace that I see here…First, an observation. The stories of abuse are indeed concerning and painful. But we must always keep instaces of pain in the wider context: in light of our sin, even the pain we go through is much better than we deserve…so we can rejoice even in the midst of pain. And for identifying evidences of God’s grace…I’ve noted many contributors to this site who show signs of willingness to forgive. Also, pastors throughout SGM have been sheding tears of regret for the abuses of the past, and I know that C.J. and his leadership team are really searching their hearts at this time. God is a work! The Lord gave me a prophetic word picture that I’ll share later after running it by my own pastor and cg leader to make sure it’s appropriate for this time…until then be encouraged brothers and sisters!

  6. exCLCer
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:19 am

    IMO NLR is right – the environment in churches can cause real perversion. Churches tends to encourage sexual repression, (“put that away, cover that up, thats disgusting, you’ll go to hell, cover that up as well”). Repression is well known to be a root cause of peculiar sexual fetishes, sexual deviance and yes sexual perversion. Add to that a good dose of teaching on the divinely given unquestionable authority of “males” in that same setting, and you have a virtual petri dish of perversion just breeding without any stop to it.

  7. A Kindred Spirit
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:20 am

    Is there any way victims can file some sort of claim with the church’s insurance company? How does that work?

    The reason I ask is because I was reading this…

  8. sgmnot
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:24 am

    exCLCer: “I want to take the opportunity to point out that during my situation the church/pastors DID find out that it is, in fact, a crime, to not report child sexual abuse. So to see that 6 years later they were repeating the same practices of trying to stall/cover up/”handle internally” shows that they have no respect for the law, and intentionally broke it by SGMnots account of their tlling her not to go to the police. I guess they think their authority supercedes that of our country, and to hear this is APPALLING and DISGUSTS me.”

    THANK YOU for pointing this out. They wanted to stall/cover up/and “handle internally” acting as if they DIDN’T know the law when they did! WHY? We can only ascertain that it was to try to help the perp get legal help FIRST or if possible keep it ONLY in the church under their authority (and not the law) AND to keep the church’s reputation “unsullied” in the courts and in public.

  9. Nickname
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:32 am

    Outraged. Sickened. Helpless.

    Are there any professionals in the subject of child sexual abuse/abusers who can weigh in on this? There is so much we do not know.

    Is it possible that the perp would be satisfying his curiosity on how these things work? Or is it more likely that he actually is a pedophile while still mostly a child himself? Is it likely that this perp had been victimized himself prior to this incident? (Please do not take any of these questions as somehow trying to excuse the perp — I am sincerely trying to come to grasp with the scenario, trying to figure out how someone crosses the lines.)

    I understand that pedophilia is rarely, if ever, cured. If this was a first-time act, is there more hope for the perp than if it was something that had become habitual?

    I’m sickened on behalf of all the parents concerned. How do the victim’s parents cope? How do the perp’s parents cope? How horrible it is for us when our children do wrong things — how in the world can we love them through it? Did the pastors try to find counseling for the perp? What are the statistics on church-related teenagers molesting younger children? Is this an isolated problem, or a pattern that exists in some churches but not others?

    I know of an organization — — that helps churches, schools, etc., with sexual abuse issues. I know nothing of it other than it exists. All of us need some help here — we need to know what to do and where to go and how to prevent & protect. How can these horrible molestations be stopped?

    Lord, help us.

  10. exCLCer
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:41 am

    sgmnot – that is EXACTLY why they did that…..very same way in my familys situation — stalling for time, trying to make it easier for the perp, trying to keep the situation from tarnishing their reputations or leaking out to the trusting congregation…biding time to control the way it all “goes down”, ensuring its to their and the perps advantage… wanting to use their self appointed authority which in their minds super-cedes the law to “handle” the situation. Talk about a show of self centered grossly inflated ego!! Ugh.

  11. A Kindred Spirit
    August 4th, 2011 at 10:59 am

    We don’t even have to take time away from the discussion to prove that the weird, extreme teachings on guy/girl relationships, courtship, modesty, sex, etc. have messed up a couple of generations of Christian kids. That’s all over the internet.

    If folks genuinely want to research it they have the same tools available to them that we have.

    When you get extreme and unbalanced, you suffer. Everytime! If the pendulum swings too far to the left you’ve got problems, and if the pendulum swings too far to the right, you’ve got problems. We’re suffering in Christendom today because we tried to counter culture by swinging too far in the other direction. You have to rely on God and His Word to stay balanced. Listen totally to mere men and their “legalistic formulas and how to’s” without filtering it through scripture and you’ll get knocked off balance every single time.

    I learned the hard way. I took parenting seriously as a Christian and I have never worked so hard or passionately at ANYTHING as I did at parenting. I read every Christian book on parenting that was out there from the time my first child was born until 18 years or so later when God got my attention *BIG TIME* and I realized I needed to quit looking to man for the legalistic “how to’s” and to look to Him and His Word only.

    Christian books have their place, but there’s no substitute for God’s Word. If you don’t know your Bible well enough to be a Berean, you have no business reading anything else until you do. You have to have God’s Word as your grid to filter EVERYTHING through – even teachings by pastors and information written in “Christian” books.

    Okay, I’ll step down off my soapbox for now.

    (Settle down, Kindred)

  12. Lauren
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:01 am

    Kindred Spirit, well said!

    “Christian books have their place, but there’s no substitute for God’s Word. If you don’t know your Bible well enough to be a Berean, you have no business reading anything else until you do. You have to have God’s Word as your grid to filter EVERYTHING through – even teachings by pastors and information written in “Christian” books.”

  13. Leo
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:04 am

    sgmNOT – wow – so sorry for what your daughter and your family had to go through – that is just WRONG, same with the other cover ups.

    It just makes we wonder – how many other cases are out there where the victims have not come forward???? My guess is a lot more than you want to think about. Researchers have guesstimated that only one in 10 cases are even reported (Time 2008). Going by that, the number of unreported cases is at least 10 times what we know about in SGM, if not more since churches have a higher rate of child rape than the general non-church going population. Also, girls are much more likely than boys to report it when it happens.

    How many un-reported cases are their in SGM? Take the stories we know about and multiply it times 10. How many other cases have the cult leaders at sgm silenced though fear and bullying?

    sgmNOT wrote – And I say crime, because often people think this is just teenage experimentation. It is not. And the term “teenage experimentation” as a possibility was mentioned in our 1 “counseling” session with the pastor and his wife.

    What? Raping a CHILD is not “teenage experimentation” – that would be getting to second base with someone that is a peer, not a CHILD!!!!!! These guys really tell it like it ain’t!!!!!!!

    Those with young children still in SGM need to start looking for the signs and go report any molestation to the police ASAP so these perps can be locked up and taken off the streets and out of churchs – if SGM tries to cover it up, it needs to be brought out IN COURT.

  14. Lauren
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:06 am

    Nickname, good questions. I know that therapists are legally required to report abuse to the authorities. This may be one reason why SGM’s hierarchy discourages members from seeing a professional Christian therapist.

    This may answer a few of your questions, Nickname.

  15. A Kindred Spirit
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:12 am

    (Sorry, I THOUGHT I was finished.)

    Look at the “mess of a church” we have today in Sovereign Grace Ministries as a result of “Larry and CJ’s grand ideas” (not God’s) of what a New Testament church should look like. (Read Kris’s comments somewhere on the Larry Tomczak posts where she quotes from Larry’s books. I don’t have time to find them.)

  16. exCLCer
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:22 am

    sgmNOT wrote – And I say crime, because often people think this is just teenage experimentation. It is not. And the term “teenage experimentation” as a possibility was mentioned in our 1 “counseling” session with the pastor and his wife.

    UGHHH, this is SO reminiscent of how the pastors tried to convince my mother the perps crimes were more like “adultery – he was probably attracted to the woman she was becoming” (an 11 year old!!!). I thought how ironic it was that they would use the word “adultery”, in regards to the sexual abuse of a child, given that the root word is ADULT…..sickening…(disregarding even a semblance of common sense???!!!). My mother told them “well then, why am I getting letters from the pedophile crimes division from the police? They insisted he not be called a pedophile, to the point of exasperation that she actually made them look the word pedophile up in the dictionary during this “counseling” session, where they read the def as “One who is sexually attracted to children” ….she said to them, well,”That fits!”.

  17. Mattie Chatham
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Okay, this is going to get me some flak, but here goes…

    As Matt, AKS, and others have noted, this is not normal and this has to be a perversion caused by something in the SGM culture–which may be, in turn, connected to something in a larger Christian subculture…perhaps the teachings of extreme complimentarianism, but my theory is that it’s the nonexistence of a healthy theology of the body prevalent in the American evangelical culture. More on that later, perhaps.

    Teenage boys molesting children could be (just theorizing here…) driven by: 1) normal curiosity, 2) intense shame (why else pick a younger/helpless/potentially silence-able victim) or awareness that sexuality = bad in SGM, 3) whatever deeper issues of perversion these guys struggle with.

    But here’s the thing: there’s a girls’ side to this story, too. In the course of about 10 years in SGM, I ran into a couple cases where middle school girls claimed that they had been either raped or molested and it was seriously investigated (I can’t go into details, but SGM pastors were largely left out of it and the “perps” were investigated by the police/health care professionals). The allegations in both cases were found to be false. Both girls ended up tearfully admitting that they lied/created a story, and it was apparent that they did this because they wanted to be noticed/affirmed/feel protected.

    They were both in that highly awkward, ashamed of one’s body, and extremely self-conscious stage of female puberty that seems to plague nerdy, shy, brilliant middle school girls–especially if they’ve been brought up to fear the power of their bodies (Modesty Checklist!) and be afraid of interactions with boys (“what if you’re flirting?”). Sexuality is awakened in them and they get terrified. I’m sure what these girls did was fairly uncommon for SGM culture, but it was brought on by, perhaps, the same culture that fostered these molesters. I say “fairly uncommon” because I think it’s very rare for a girl of that type in the SGM culture to have the dramatic flair and gumption to come up with the stories they created.

    Anyhow, I’m sickened and saddened by these stories. But I also wonder if we could put a finger on what’s creating these cases and if it’s related at all to what I’ve described here.

  18. sgmnot
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:29 am

    Dan #4 – Thank you for your prayers. And I am so sorry of what you went through too. I pray that God will heal you completely!

  19. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:39 am


    FIRST OF ALL I did NOT say this was only and solely the product of unhealthy teachings on sexism. Second, i find it interesting that you would call me out on what you apparently cannot see with your own eyes–that the theology taught by your leaders is inherently sexist ALL THE WAY AROUND, BUDDY!

    You failed to acknowledge that I was not offering a comprehensive discourse on what influences sexual perversions and violence in others. Did you NOT read that I told Matt that I would come back later and expound on the subject at hand?

    SECOND: Not everyone who rapes or abuses has been abused. Many have been but not everyone. Matt, as well as others here, have noticed a glaring pattern within SGM of teenaged boys acting out in these very sick and monstrous ways. My comment was responding to the noted and confirmed patterns, not solely the reasons why.

    THIRD: Telling me what I do and do not know just makes you look stupid and ignorant. Not me. You know nothing about me and neither do you know what I could possibly know. And for your information, just so you know, I have served in sexual abuse and counseling ministry for over six years. I have taught, studied and ministered to people suffering abuse, people with sexual addiction, people struggling with same-sex attraction and in homosexual relationships, addictions to pornography, people who were raped, molested, abused and abusers themselves.

    My knowledge on why people abuse and are predators is quite comprehensive and well-informed and educated by professionals in this field–most especially who deal soecifically with issues in the church. It is multifaceted, convoluted and not an A+B=C situation when it comes to sexual violence and abuse.

    The information you gave is correct but it is not comprehensive nor is it conclusive as to the main reason why people assault little children or those weaker than them. And yes, stringent teaching on sexuality that represses healthy expression of sexuality within SGM IS ONE PROBLEM AND AN OBVIOUS REASON why many of these young men are assaulting little children. You will find the same issues in cults where sexuality is controlled and closely guarded and scrutinized or seen as evil and also within religious sects like catholicism, Mormonism and Islam where particular views on sexuality or modesty are idols. And this is just a very light skim on the surface.

    I’d have more explicit conversation and examles about sexuality and other religious practices like Tantra that also prove this point that may not be appropriate for this blog.

    I apologize to the rest of you who have to read my rant. Sorry.

    FOURTH: Don’t come at me like that again. I’m not going head to head wth anybody here, but don’t think you can just drop in and speak to me in the tone you just did, call me ignorant with your obvious lack of knowledge on sexual predators and then leave. I appreciate your outrage on sexual abuse and violence. But your accusations about my lack of intelligence or even Matt’s are very clearly wrong and insulting.

    Please join the conversation here, but act like you have some social decorum and respect.

  20. Phoenix
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:48 am

    Couple of anecdotes providing background to this topic. All of these were told to me directly.

    Single mom became engaged after a courtship in an SGM church that followed all the proper courtship procedures. Leading up to the wedding the couple (in their 30′s) was very conscientious about physical contact — chose not to kiss, weren’t alone together in his home. One evening they were having dinner together discussing relationship issues as a couple is supposed to do during engagement and she was upset. In the parking lot of the restaurant he gave her a big hug. A. Hug. Married couple their age from the church drives by and sees him hugging her. Married guy calls his friend to check up on what is happening because the engaged couple was in physical contact. Hugging.

    I’m at a Homegroup Meeting. The young son of the strictest Mommy in the group (regularly boasted that people called her to ask how she made her children so compliant) has apparently just learned to tickle? goose? pinch gently? to startle someone and make them laugh. (I guess.) He came up behind me to share this experience with me but at his height what he did was to grab my butt. Yep. He said, “Gotcha.” I turned and said, startled by not upset, “You sure did. Why don’t you go tell your Dad what you did.” Mommy heard and immediately bristled at the idea that her son had done something wrong. So I told her what he had done. No apology. No rueful laugh. She said, “He’s just too innocent to know what he did.” Well, a child that age who is too “innocent” to know not to grab a grown woman’s butt is TOO innocent. Too innocent to protect himsel.

    Married couple is enjoying marital intimacy. Loud marital intimacy. They just happen to be right next door to young teenage son’s bedroom. Young son approaches his mother respectfully and tells her that hearing his parents having loud sex is upsetting and arousing him. Mother tells the kid that’s too bad, get used to it, that’s how it is with married couples. Oh, and btw, you are absolutely not allowed to masturbate.

    Same young son is playing husband and wife with his younger sister, lying on a pallet pretending to be in bed together. She won’t let him kiss her on the mouth. When the mother comes in and catches them she sees that young son has an erection. He gets spanked. To my knowledge they also never talked to anyone about whether they should be concerned and never sought help or input. Certainly not from “secular” sources. And yes, he did act out more severely later.

    Another single mom has lost custody of her children largely because she spanked them She pays child support to her ex-husband and the stepmother, with whom he cheated on her. They are members in good standing of an SGM church. She works fulltime but because of the child support must rent a room in someone’s house as she can’t afford her own place. In her 40′s she meets a single man who is new to the church and they hit it off. He’s a divorced guy who is relationship-shy but they’re working through it. The leaders of the singles ministry put so much pressure and scrutiny on them as they try to work out their relationship in the goldfish bowl that he dumps her. She gives up on ever finding someone.

    I’ll stop for now.

  21. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:53 am


    Your observations are also true of a very complex and multifaceted issue. I have seen this time and time again in ministry. My previous comment is in moderation but you will see where I am coming from.

    Also, another point to Willie’s comment and by example of what you have just given is this… Many of the men get married early enough that this doesn’t become the issue–this issue of abusing children. Not many of them will do that and are decent and sane enough not to. But here’s the other glaring pattern that is resultant of the culture, teachings and strict control, paternalism, and unhealthy views about sexuality:

    How many women do you all know who have been abused sexually by their husbands within this organization and others like it, I.e. IFB, Quiverfull, Islam, Mormonism, SGM?

    How many women got married to these extremely sexually starved men yet to find out they had some sick unhealthy and unreasonable desires in the marriage bed?

    How many of these men get angry, upset, disappointed in an unusual fashion or use Scripture to guilt and control their wives when she does not want to perform sexually?

    How many women have been raped in their own marriages?

    How many women have NOT shared such stories and experiences and are simply harboring them secretly and acting like life is perfect at home?

    Trust me, I’ve seen their gloom, their empty expressionless and robotic faces, their plastered smiles when talking about sex or issues in the home. These poor women have no idea that this isn’t right, yet they are in a silent prison. My heart aches for them and what they are being taught is love and a husband laying down his life for her.

    None of us here know of all the stories that are kept in those hiding places. There is surely a monster lurking in the dark and some of us see it.

    This organization and it’s beliefs has created this monster and we will never see or hear from all of it’s victims.

  22. Lauren
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:55 am

    Mattie, are you thinking that something within SGM culture could be contributing to a preoccupation with sex among the teenagers?

    From what I understand, sexual abuse has less to do with sex than it does with exerting power and control over someone with less strength.

    So I would ask what in the SGM culture causes people to want to control others so much? The sin sniffing, the ratting, the group confessions, the inside report system, the shunning, the controlling courtships, etc. This has to be affecting the kids negatively to some extent.

  23. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:58 am


    I am not a professional or would qualify as one, but I have extensive training, knowledge, ministry and education in this area. Although I could not be exhaustive here, I’d be willing to answer some questions. I never usually like to do so because it’s very heavy and difficult topic. It’s the reason I had to take a sabbatical from ministry. I’m not sure when I’m going back. Ut was one of the most rewarding ministries but the most difficult I think I’ll ever do.

  24. Mattie Chatham
    August 4th, 2011 at 11:59 am

    NLR: first, your post at Willie? :word I’m a fan of you. :)

    Second…yeah, this issue is so much bigger than just these few stories. Bethany Patchin’s story can attest to this. She’s since locked her blog, but sexual abuse in her marriage was why she and Sam Torode got divorced. And she’s one of the few out there who’s willing to talk about what’s right and call abuse abuse and deal with it as such.

  25. Hope
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    Yeah Mattie, here’s a little flak: I have a problem with how you stated that; equating “the girls side of the story” to be lying, a sweeping, false generalization. Pointing to the fact that you know of some girls that once lied, in the midst of a thread in which a 3 year old was sexually abused seems an unhelpful addition. Basically you’ve just asserted that girl’s reports should first-off be suspect. WRONG. I don’t think that idea needs to be encouraged.

  26. exCLCer
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    Sorry if its off topic, but I feel I have to specifically address the “anonymous” christian who sent me the following email which read in part:

    “exclcer, stop your slander, or God will strike you down like it says in Psalms:

    ‘You love to slander and say things that will bring harm, oh you with the lying tongue, but God will strike you down and pull you from your home, and drag you away from the land of the living. The followers of God will see it happen. They will be in awe. They will laugh at you and say see what happens to those who despise our God!!!’

    Can I just point out to you that:

    1. slander is equal to lie – I have only told the truth – so no lying tongue here
    2. too late for the pull you from your home warning – did you not read my story? It already happened (omnipotent preemptive strike maybe?)
    3. “drag from the land of the living”???(is that a death threat or just your obvious psychological illness talking?)
    4. and finally, go ahead and laugh now, but I assure you Justice always laughs last, and laughs the loudest

    Your sick. (Unlike the church) I would hastily recommend you seek real professional therapy and medical treatment, possibly including medications for your delusions. SMDH.

  27. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    ExClcer– #56… AMAZING. And true. You said it concisely and very clearly. In a nut shell, that’s a huge problem and one of the main issues. Also, incoude the fact that churches attract pedophiles as well. Authoritarian and paternalistic doctrine attract abusive men as well (and before anybody rants, I’m not saying all authoritarians abuse).

    Phoenix– #70… You said it before I could hit send. There are far too many stories like that at will never be discussed or told.

  28. sgmnot
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    In 20/20 hindsight vision:

    1. I wouldn’t subjugate my life and actions to anyone (pastor, etc.) except the Lord Jesus Christ. They are men and consequentially imperfect. (Jesus said himself that he didn’t trust men, because he knew what was in their hearts.) Christian leaders are to be examples, not my parents! i.e. “To be obeyed, or I’ll get kicked out!”
    2. Since our daughter was the victim of a crime, under the jurisdiction of the legal system, I wouldn’t have even contacted the church until later (after the police had arrested the perpetrator).
    3. I would have immediately gotten counseling from a trained psychologist for us (specifically on how to handle the grief, etc., plus specific direction on how to parent a victim of sexual abuse.
    4. I wouldn’t have written that letter. At the time, I felt indoctrinated, that as a Christian, I needed to protect that boy from facing the full consequences of his crime.
    5. I would have told all my closest family and friends immediately, for our sake, regardless of the effect on his privacy. That should have been a consequence of his actions!!
    6. I never should have allowed a teenage boy to babysit our children. I was lulled into thinking church and our church family was safe. He and his guy friend regularly babysat for our entire Care Group (as far as I know, no enquiries were done to double-check that he had not molested any of their children! AND none of these people were told of the sexual molestation!)
    7. I feel that by “checking my mind”, my independent thought, and biblically-based critical thinking—like the Bereans in the Bible “at the door” when I became a member at CLC, that I ALLOWED myself to be ABUSED and MANIPULATED by these leaders; i.e. they told us or strongly urged us to do something, and desiring to be godly and obedient, we did it willingly even to our detriment!

    Please learn from my sad testimony and if you are still in SGM (WHY?), people, heed my warning!

  29. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:09 pm


    I’ve never had a fan! Ha! (bats lashes… Twiddles pearls… Reapplies lipstick)…

    Bethanys story is like this other girls blog I read who is now an atheist. I think it’s called Redheaded-something. Can’t remember. But her husband (they were IFB, I think) got her drunk and allowed his buddy to take turns. HORRID! He should be shot in the town square–and if the town didn’t have one, they should have a contractor to build one just for him. Some people need to be made an example of. This woman no longer BELIEVES IN GOD over this mess.

  30. Patti
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    So many of us are not comfortable laying everything out on the table as we KNOW it.
    Doesn’t that PROVE something very evil and sinister is in control of SGM. Like I have said before, the Talons of evil have very long claws reaching all the way to the West coast, the subtle crafty Serpent knows EXACTLY what he is doing. I feel shame for letting that snake to control me as much as he is. He is holding The happiness and peace of our CHILDREN over our heads. How many of us REALLY care what happens to US and OUR reputations at this point in all this disclosure. Our children are held hostage. And we need help. And it shouldn’t come from local authorities any more than the Utah local authorities could help in the FLDS cases in Utah! I am so so so sorry !

  31. Lauren
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    NLR quote: “Many of the men get married early enough that this doesn’t become the issue–this issue of abusing children.”

    Are you implying that men who marry earlier in life are at less risk of abusing a child?

    I’m sure you did not mean to give that impression, so giving you a chance to clarify.

    As you indicated, this stuff is very complex.

  32. Mattie Chatham
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    Hope: I in no way suggested that victims of sexual abuse should be doubted or challenged. I referenced two odd cases where the girl was lying–which is, I said, uncommon. Please, read what I say, not what you think I say.

    Lauren: I think it’s less a preoccupation with sex and more that they aren’t given a framework for sex that gives them a place for figuring out what it means to be a sexual being. This does not justify perversion, but it can be a catalyst for it.

  33. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:30 pm


    No, that is not what I am implying. Thanks for asking. My point is that most young men won’t abuse a child, even if they are sexually repressed. In this particular environment, most get married young and so it helps the situation of being able to express sexuality. But there will be a few who will go this route, because of the same influences but yet, the outcome a variable. But even when the outcome is a variavle, it appears to have an unhealthy and unusual amount of young men who either abuse their wives, or abuse kids, or both. You will probably have more that have unhealthy or imbalances expectations in marriage than those who become pedophiles. Yet, way, SGM is having an unusual glaring problem with these issues on both sides. Far more than you would have in any normal context.

    I hope that makes sense. If it doesn’t, the lack of clear commucatioj is probably my deficiency because it’s hard to explain some of this.

  34. 5yearsin PDI
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Very sorry, SGMnot. May God work it for good for your daughter. She will be able to comfort many others someday.

    We live in a very perveted and unclean, highly sexualized culture. It is no surprise such things happen, and in a church of thousands one would expect such cases. I would guess the SGM statistical rate is probably much lower than in the RCC, Mormons, mainstream evangelicals, and the unsaved, though I don’t know for sure.

    What disgusts and outrages is not that it happened, horrrible as it is, but that subsequently parents are told to not tell cops, not tell other friends and brethren, and ultimately the victims become the bad guys and the perps are coddled and protected. That is where the real evidence of evil SGM pathology lies. More fodder for Andy’s picketing :D

  35. A Kindred Spirit
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:34 pm


    I was impressed before, but even moreso, now. :wink:

    Glad you’re here educating and ministering to others, dear.

  36. Lauren
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    Thanks NLR, I think you’re doing a great job.

    Mattie, that’s a good point about young people not being given a place for figuring out what it means to be a sexual being. I wish I could remember the name of the book, but I read that in repressed circles like SGM and others (should we name them too?), many young people steer far away from even appearing to be interested in someone of the opposite sex out of fear their motives will be harshly judged. I think that’s what is happening anywhere you find courtship emphasized. Josh Harris set the dynamic rolling by planting the idea that no young person, most of all a daddy’s girl, should ever have her feelings hurt by some young man audacious enough to show her interest without fully intending to marry her within 3-6 months.

    Someone at Wartburg recently posted this scripturally informative site which has some bearing on the topic:

  37. 212
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:42 pm

    Sorry to hear this story. I completely agree that the victim needs care first, continually, and support more than the perpetrators. It’s sad that this did not happen in your case. Not the the perpetrators don’t need support, prayer, help, community, after all Christ came for those who are sick those who need a physician. I’m not saying we shouldn’t walk in wisdom, but Christ came to save those who also commit crimes.

    Out of curiosity, Did you ever bring correction to the pastor that tried to care for you during this sad event? Did you ever provide them feedback? Did you ever correct him?

    I’m not saying this was your case, but it’s not the pastors against the members in situations like this. As members of churches we are also called to support, correct, influence our pastors.

    As far as post 5, 12, 25 and any others like it… I completely disagree with you. You are speculating to the highest degree there and inferring that SGM raises little molesters and sex offenders… That’s just wrong, unfounded, and hateful.

  38. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Questions I would think to consider are:

    1. Why are there so many, more than usual (mind you that what is normal is slim to one–maybe?) pedophiles and sexual abusers within this organization? We have wondered the same about the catholic church.

    2. What about the environment, what catalysts could be there that we do or do not see that warps the mind and promotes an evil in this way?

    3. In considering that many pedophiles and sexual abusers are the result of different external factors, what is causing this in SGM? Are these people who were going to be pedophiles anyway because of abuse or are many of them such because of other factors we are not considering? It’s kinda like measuring people who are depressed because of genetics and biological chemistry with people who are depressed because of circumstances in their life. They are both depressed, but because of different factors.

    4. If we don’t think the teaching or environment that suppresses sexuality has a factor in creating this response, then what do we think about examples like, for instance, men in prison who don’t have freedom to be with a spouse, who arent gay and fir that time while incarcerated, allow themselves the sexual company of other men? My point: I believe this is a huge reason why many of these young men are acting in this unusual and sick way–unhealthy suppression and no real outlet to explore healthy interaction and basic sexual discovery.

  39. Matt
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    “Having children, including a daughter, I know such a situation would be difficult for me as well. It is very important to protect our children, your story is a reminder to be vigilant to that end.”

    A Friend, So what do you think about the SGM pastor who immediately told them NOT to call the police?

  40. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    Thanks for tge encouragement. I am no pro and I’m not saying all that I know is gospel. I know many schools of thought that would disagree. I have no substantial comprehensive academic credentials and knowledge, but I just know the little bit that I do know. I hate talking about and discussing this stuff because it gets my heart in a knot and makes my breathing short and shallow.

    I had no idea when I entered this ministry what I was going to be exposed to. I was 25 at tge time, most of the people I helped counsel and teach were in their late 40s and 50s. They were from a generation where you didn’t talk about these things–AT ALL.

    Not only was I young and inexperienced, I was prideful and an egoist because these werent my sins or my problems–especially the same-sex attraction, sexual addictions.0,etc… I thought I was better than those sinners. Afterall, I was there at first to receive counseling and healing from abuse that was not sexual. I figured I had it good and I was, you know, “getting it right.”. Little did I know what God had in store for me. He threw me off my high horse onto my ass and showed me how to have compassion for those who were broken and expressing sin in ways I never had. And He showed me how my own respectable sins were not respectable at all. The Lord humbled me and taught me much. Gave me a love for broken people that I thought I’d never have. It’s hard walking beside the homosexual Christian struggling, the porn addict, the fornicators, the abused who just won’t heal fast enough and get over it already. I can’t compare it to anything. Yet, I hope not to be stingy with what I can offer others just because it makes me exhausted and uncomfortable.

  41. A Kindred Spirit
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:54 pm

    What disgusts and outrages is not that it happened, horrrible as it is, but that subsequently parents are told to not tell cops, not tell other friends and brethren, and ultimately the victims become the bad guys and the perps are coddled and protected. That is where the real evidence of evil SGM pathology lies.

    “That is where the real evidence of evil SGM pathology lies.” – I agree with that statement, 5 years.

    SGMers, these are the type of men who are now pondering your polity, your “practices”, and having CJ assessed for “ministry fitness.” You’re in good hands, eh?

  42. exCLCer
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:55 pm

    A kindred spirit – :goodpost thanks for the link. In the article it said:

    “These (sexual abuse incidents in the church) are things people are entitled to know,” said Christa Brown, a member of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, who says she was sexually abused as a child by a Southern Baptist minister. “The only way to prevent this crime is to break the code of silence and to have absolute transparency when allegations are raised.”

    Joe Trull, editor of Christian Ethics Today and retired ethics professor at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary said (about their efforts to create a registry): “The problem we’re having is that churches just weren’t sending the names,” Trull said. “In the normal scenario, they just try to keep it secret. We’re going to have to be more proactive and let them know if they don’t come forward, they’re helping to perpetuate this problem.”

    Both so true.

  43. griefofwisdom
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:56 pm

    Bethanys story is like this other girls blog I read who is now an atheist. I think it’s called Redheaded-something.

    @NLR: I followed her blog too. — Redheaded Skeptic. I agree her story illustrates a parallel to the SGM abuse issues (though I do not think she would attribute her atheism to the abuse she suffered).

    In SGM, I always told myself, and talked with others, about why SGM was not “fundamentalist” like the “real” fundamentalists out there, like the IFB churches. Now certainly there are real distinctions that separate SGM from that type of fundamentalism, but all too often there are very real similarities as well. When I first read of the sexual abuse stories, and particularly the SGM pastoral responses to them, posted here, I thought of those similarities as well.

    I am not sure how much it is the culture that fosters the abusive behavior in the first place, certainly sexual abuse takes place in every human social group in existence (I’m not saying it doesn’t either, I just don’t know). But the authoritarian and patriarchal system certainly does protect and enable abusers, giving them a free hand they might not have otherwise.

    I think also of the “no longer quivering” website, with its stories of abused women who just had no way out from under the abuse, other than to be told to be even more submissive to their abusive husbands/fathers/pastors. So sad and wrong.

  44. Matt
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:58 pm

    “Why don’t you take some time to read a few case studies on people who molest and those who have been molested before you make a sweeping ignorant statement. Inform yourself before you try to reform anyone else.”

    Thanks for the suggestion Willie. My wife had done just that. So, lets take your scenerio that the 14 year old boy did this becasue he was sexually abused. That is the only reason he would do this. Sounds good but we have a huge problem.

    Most of the priests who abused young children in the RCC were NOT sexually abused. Nor did they find a correlation between celebacy and pedophilia. So why the concentrated amount of sexual abuse in that system? And why did the non pervert priests and bishops who knew, look the other way? And plenty knew as we now know because they moved them around like crazy.

    What we do know is that the “system” produced this. the concentration of instances was to big to ignore that.

    It has to do with power and position. The priest was not coming on to adult parishoners. The 14 year old was not coming on to his own age group. They chose weaker victims they could control and intimidate.

    It is much more sinister than you are willing to admit.

    So the question is WHY do they think of themselves in power over these innocents. Why did the 14 year old boy (and the other teen boys from SGM that molested very young girls) think they were in power over these girls?

    Willie, there is something deeply flawed with the system you are in. Instead of being defensive, lets work to protect kids. It is ok to be outraged. I worry about people who are not and simply make excuses.

    one other thing, in the RCC situation, it took years for this to come out. You have the whole authority of the church thing going on with that. Most were middle age adults! So, sgm might have some serious things to deal with in the future. Because when we see even a bit of a pattern, we know it is worse. Most people do not want to be revictimized again and the family does not want to put their kid through it, so they stay quiet.

    I hope that does not continue.

  45. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:59 pm


    This is well-founded social psychology and concrete knowledge about human sexuality. These aren’t inferences, speculations or wild guesses. What knowledge, training, education do you have or know that completely refutes what the community of educators, psychologists and sociologists have founded in matters like these–with the same external influences, religious ideologies, and cultural abnormalities that exist within your organization.

    These are conclusions drawn from my back pocket written on a sticky note. There are volumes of information confirming this.

    But I respect your right to disagree. I just thought your accusation of speculation and inference is wrong. It is not either. And in this case, I would switch out both of those words and replace them with discernment and intuition, and reason.

  46. 5yearsin PDI
    August 4th, 2011 at 12:59 pm


    I wanted to respond to your comment in the last thread.

    You said this: “We are not sinners in Adam at birth. We are not born D**ned. We sin and rebel by choice. Not because we are sinners in Adam at birth.

    Calvin made a theological system from Augustine’s writings but Augustine was wrong.”

    The doctrine of original sin is not something that papal edits or councils added to scripture via Augustine or anybody else. Those of us who adhere to it believe in Romans 5:

    12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

    13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

    15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

    16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

    17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

    18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    also Rom 3:

    “For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11 there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away,
    they have together become worthless;
    there is no one who does good,
    not even one. ”

    I am not sure how you missed it that all sinned and death came to all, but glory to God, this is why Jesus died for us. We are not some dopey brainwashed drones to believe in original sin, we see it in the bible. It has nothing to do with Augustine or even Calvin, far as I know most Arminian believe this too. Finney rejected it, along with many evangelical fundamentals, and he was not part of restoring truth but part of departing from it. ( see Ian Murray’s “Revival and Revivalism” for an excellent chapter on how bad Finney was)

    By the way, you seriously confuse Calvinism and hyper Calvinism, and might do well to read Iain Murray’s “Spurgeon versus Hypercalvinism” starting around page 80.

    Calvinists believe not only in election but also in moral responsibility and moral culpability for choosing or not choosing, obeying or rebelling. Does this make sense to the logical mind- ie, can the two go together? Well, the bible teaches BOTH and Calvinsm teaches both. I like to think of the dilemma as: is light a wave or a particle? How can it be photons and also a wave? It can’t be. Well, it is. Physics cannot explain it, but it is both, and the bible does not explain to us how election fits with moral culpability. All we know is that when we enter the gates of heaven, all the glory and 100% of the credit is due to Jesus Christ. And if we go to hell, we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

    Sometimes there are mysteries that our finite minds existing in created chronological space time can’t fathom, because we cannot understand the eternal God. But the bible is true- all of it. God chooses/elects, and we must obey.

    I for one am getting really tired of your hashed pronouncements about Calvinism and what it teaches and where it comes from, when I don’t think you get it at all. Some Arminians have a thoughful scholarly debate based on understanding the issues( Rodman Williams on P for example) and that’s fine. But leave the debate to people who grasp the main points correctly. You do not.

    SGM not, sorry to digress from your post. But the problem with SGM is not Calvinism. There are hundreds of thousands of Calvinists in this country none of whom are like the SGM shepherding movement, and some posters need to find another culprit. It isn’t 500 years of Reformed theology. If they were truly Reformed the whole thing would crumble with the truth of the priesthood of all believers.

  47. 5yearsin PDI
    August 4th, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    oops, really messed up that block quote :scratch

  48. NLR
    August 4th, 2011 at 1:03 pm


    Yes, that’s the blog. Heartbreaking but a precious young woman. She’s just very special indeed and a real joy.


    Thank you. I was going to make that example earlier about the priests but it slipped my mind because of all the other thoughts rummaging through my head. I also know of women who were in catholic girls schools who were sexually molested, even violently (meaning with force, objects, aggression), and made to perform sexual acts from nuns–their teachers and caregivers. Even women can be sexually aggressive and violent towards children when sexually depraved.

  49. Patti
    August 4th, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Just the fact of how much Sgmnot obeyed their pastors is a giant indicator to me that Matt is spot on in his assessment of the fundie doctrine leading to incidences like this. The only grace in my heart I could find for my Fundie Boyfriend rapist was all that very same gender teaching that we had growing up. And you say you didn’t have that teaching back then in’93 ?
    Are you telling me that CJ and Carolyn have only recently begun to teach all that???
    I went to CBMW after reading your post to see how far back CJ’s articles go.
    I wasn’t expecting to find him ‘active’ there right now but he just blogged there last week! He reposted his own blog post of De Young’s teachings on gender roles. And even though it’s short it is so full of obvious holes an eighth grader could find the heresy in it.
    Sgmnot, I apologize for the derailment of the topic for a minute here. I am not insensitive to your posting, just the opposite, I’m sorry to be selfish but I really did need to lower my blood pressure.
    I wouldn’t be surprised at all to fond many many more cases in SGM like this. I really think a professional therapist needs to be hired. I think of so many abuses I received that I did not tell my parents for one reason or another. Mostly because I always thought there was something I had done to deserve it. A parent should never never under any circumstances tell there children after a hurt “well, you shouldn’t have done such or such” EVEN if it’s just for a skinned knee because they were running when they shouldn’t have been. So to anyone in charge of small children you are grooming them for silence. Don’t even be complicit in this way, stop now. I never told my parents about the time something almost/sort ?? Still not clear happened when I was 7. My two brothers and I had a teenage male babysitter from our church. I was ‘rebelling’ against bed time. I remember I would keep getting out of bed, laughing and giggling and running into the living room and he would chase me back into my bedroom. But the last time he pushed me on the bed, at first I still thought it was all fun and games. But then I remember him on top of me and trying to or did he succeed ? In kissing me. My fun turned to terror at some point. I must have turned from giggling to terror noises because next thing I remember my brothers were in the room yelling at him to stop.
    My brothers were 8 and 6. Knowing me I probably begged my brothers not to tell.
    Lifelong issues? You betcha, and people like me and I already have been accused by SGMers that the only reason I am so concerned about Daughter’s sgm involvement and so ‘triggered’ by any ‘possible’ ‘rare’ occurrences in SGM stems from my own past abuse.
    ARE KIDDING ME? Only those with past abuse know how HARD it is to HELP BECAUSE of past abuse. I DON’T WANT TO BE HERE! Excuse me, I really do need to take my blood pressure now.
    SO, a GIANT :clap To those of you who have never been abused but want to see justice and are willing to ‘push the envelop’. Sometimes PTSD makes the rest of us too weak.

  50. Matt
    August 4th, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    “And I say crime, because often people think this is just teenage experimentation. It is not. And the term “teenage experimentation” as a possibility was mentioned in our 1 “counseling” session with the pastor and his wife.”

    WHAT? Are you serious?

    This is PREDATOR behavior. She was 3.

    These sgm pastors are pervert enablers who only care about themselves. They have innocent blood on their hands. For them to say this only says a lot about them and how dark their hearts are.

    What is worse this message of “experimentation” was passed on to the predator. Which only serves to mask his crime and make sure there are future victims.

    These pastors belong in prison. They enable predators.

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