Kris says: Yesterday, I received the following from Covenant Life Church pastor GS, with a request that I post it…
Dear exCLCer and SGMnot,
This past week I read the stories that you posted on SGMSurvivors. The details are heartbreaking for me, the pastors of Covenant Life, and the members of our church. I cannot imagine the anguish these events have caused for you and your families. I am doubly grieved to know how deeply disappointed you are with the pastoral care you received during that crisis and in the years following.
In my 14 years of pastoral ministry at Covenant Life Church, I have so often failed to love and care for God’s people the way I should. If it weren’t for the grace of our Lord Jesus and the forgiveness of the saints, this pastor would not have the faith to keep caring for God’s precious church. Stories like yours cause me to cry out for more of God’s Spirit, more of God’s heart. I do
not want to fail his children in their time of deepest need!
I realize you don’t have much confidence in the pastors of Covenant Life Church right now, and I can understand that. But would you be willing to talk with me about your experience? Though I am sure it would be painful to review the details, I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future. And if
nothing else, I hope I could express the grief we feel for the suffering you have endured.
Kris has my e-mail address — please let her know if you are willing for me to contact you about this. In the meantime I will be praying for you and your family.
On behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,
GS
(Family Life Pastor)
August 12th, 2011 at 7:29 am
@Breeezey, you know I always chalked things up before to us (my self and the pastors) being “young and ignorant”..I did not realize that Gary was 8 years old than I was! I was only 31 when everything happened in my family. Gary was almost 40-so much for the excuse of youth!
To all here, it does feel so good to be able to express suspicion and hesitancy and disappointment without getting beat up for it! Thank you all! :D
I am working on a separate writing- a chronicle, so to speak, (because it is so long). I actually asked for counseling long before the abuse happened with my daughter. I am still responsible for my actions, as well as my wrong choices. No one “forced my hand” to put me in that arraignment, or to even stay in that marriage-I chose to listen to men instead of listen to God speaking to me in my heart. However, it does seem that when someone chooses to take the title of “pastor”, just like accepting the title of “parent”, one then also accepts the responsibility to educate ones self on being prepared for all that entails. As a parent, I sought to learn about nutrition before my child was even born; I read about potty training while my child was still in diapers; I researched everything I could find on how to help my child develop physically, emotionally, and spiritually ahead of their need. It was “my job” to be prepared before the need arose. I would think that if I was going to take on the title as “pastor”, I would do the same. We live in a world full of sin-shouldn’t a pastor prepare to deal with sex abuse even before it happens? If a person in a pastor’s congregation say they feel something is seriously amiss, and has been since before they were even married (under same leadership), that a pastor should say, “We will seek and pray until we get to the bottom of this” ? Exactly what IS taught at a pastor’s college, if not these things? Gary one time said to me, “You have obviously given more thought and prayer to this situation than I have. To be honest, I can only think about it a little bit, because it makes me sick”. (This was at the very, very beginning of discovery) I responded to him with, “It sickens me as well, but I cannot even considering setting it aside, because for 3 years my little girl had to LIVE IT. I HAVE to be able to think about,no matter how ugly it is, because my child had to live through it!” I knew that was my responsibility as a Mother, but shouldn’t that also be a responsibility as a pastor? Have we yet heard of a situation where sex abuse, or child abuse was handled by an SGM pastor appropriately yet? I think that would be when I would gain some confidence in a change, or even knowing that the pastors openly address and speak to sex abuse in such a way that would allow openness from any other victims who have not yet come forward…just thoughts-I am still praying..
August 12th, 2011 at 7:30 am
@Longinforheaven@#48 and #6
Your block quote, as understood, is from a CLC blog? Glad you posted it. The post looks like a wave-off from reading the Detwiler documents and/or other sources, e.g. the blogs. I’ll repost it for ease:
“Remember Your Relational Responsibilities
The decision of whether or not to read critical comments in Brent’s documents or the blogs takes careful thought and prayer. One helpful way to process the issue is to think about your differing responsibilities. A simple way to sum this up is: Be tough on yourself, concerned for those closest to you, and protective of others.
The person for whom you are most responsible before the Lord is yourself. Therefore, if someone says something critical about you, it’s generally wise to ask for God’s grace to hear them out and thoroughly examine their input. If you doubt your own judgment or objectivity, you might even want to bring in a third person to hear the criticism against you and help you to process it. The same would be generally true if a report concerns someone for whom you have some responsibility (spouse, child, employee, or even a close friend). If the report contains some truth, it may be necessary for you to take action to ensure that the person you are responsible for faces those truths and deals with them biblically. The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.
“But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.”
August 12th, 2011 at 7:31 am
Yep…I’m with Jim on this one. This is huge that Greg took this step and I, for one, am grateful for it.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:34 am
#46 your wife was right on-read the old sermon “10 Shekels and a Shirt” by Paris Reidhead.
exCLEer’smom, You are a very brave, wise woman and I admire you for your tenacious care of your family over the years.
I don’t know if I would ever want to speak to these men again if I had gone through what you did. I think I would just shake the dust off of my sandals and move on. But that is just me. You don’t owe them anything.
These situations just reveal why older mature seasoned men and women should be the ones in leadership and not such young men who really have no life experience or wisdom from the school of hard knocks.
Men in their 40′s and 50′s should be the ones attending the pastor’s school not 20 somethings.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:40 am
:goodpost
I agree with you Jim. While I can COMPLETELY understand the suspicion people feel towards SGM, I never thought I’d see the day when something like that was posted, here of all places! Not because I didn’t think Kris or Guy would post it, but that a pastor would send it. I had hoped that pastors would start reaching out to the victims in such a public way, but I never expected it. It’s definitely a historical moment. And I totally didn’t expect his message to contain not a single, “we did the best we knew how” excuse. He sounds like he’s wanting to own this, and that’s great. I hope he gets the pastors who actually failed these people to come forward. They shouldn’t be hiding behind another pastor.
So I’ll just say to Greg, well done.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:43 am
@Jim -- :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 7:55 am
I tend to agree with Kerrin’s #47 -- The way I see it, once you’ve been beaten a few times, you have to question whether the stick in the hand of the guy coming toward you is an olive branch or a club.
The letter from Greg is so loaded with the typical SGM language. Why would anyone care how bad a sinner Greg is if he wasn’t involved in any of the issues at hand? Awww, look how proud Greg is of his humility. That’s touching.
I’ll put a lid on the rest of my snarkiness long enough to say this -- It does seem that the CLC pastors are making an unusual effort to go against the status quo and change things for the better. Whether the bleeding they want to stop is related to the pain of the wounded or the wallets of the walking will become evident in time, I’m sure.
And maybe I shouldn’t be too hard on Mr. Somerville. If he’s been wallowing in the SGM system for close to 15 years, he may truly be making a goodhearted attempt at reaching out. He may not know how to communicate like a normal person anymore. It may take time and deprogramming. Maybe there needs to be a PC graduate school with a class in English as a Second Language for SGM’ese speakers.
One more thought, though -- When Greg says he is communicating on behalf of the CLC pastors, is that supposed to include Mr. Ricucci? As I understand it, Ricucci works for/gets paid by SGM, but his picture still shows up on the CLC “Our Pastors” web page… For Mr. Ricucci not to come forward and address the issues related to specific instances of his own behavior, is just wrong. Maybe that too will come in time. I have no doubt that God is good.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:10 am
Jim and Guy, Do you understand why this was put up, at Greg’s request, as a post for all of the survivors to view and discuss, rather than having Kris send exCLCer and SGMnot the note privately? It is only addressed to them. Why the public notice?
August 12th, 2011 at 8:10 am
Folks: I just saw this post. We are hosting a HUGE Going Away Party for our son today (You’re all invited! LOL), so VERY BUSY! We will ponder on these things and respond over the weekend. Our response will be from my husband, daughter and myself.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:11 am
InAdullam’sCave, just to clarify one thing: You mentioned in #32 how it seems GS was being attacked for his letter..I just want to make sure you know that the statements by me (#31) and Ellie (#30) where in reference to another band member that Acme referred to (post#18), and not to GS. I responded to Greg’s letter initially, and said I would pray to see if God would direct me differently from how I feel initially. I do hope for change in CLC and the SGM churches, but that is between them and God. I agree, it is a big step Greg made, and am glad to see him commended for that. It was a big step for me to even post anything on here, because I have, as OldTimer (#54) has said, “shaken the dust from my sandals and moved on”. If I do anything at all, it will be because I feel God has spoken to me in my heart, through much prayer, and for no other reason would I meet with them. As I stated in a letter I wrote to another (#13), their absolution comes from God, not me. Yes, my family members, and many others were victims to a greater degree than some, but when a pastor fails in his job, does it not hurt the entire Body of Christ? Does it not hurt God Himself? I am not trying to ignore, or “bash” Greg, or anyone for that matter-I was simply clarifying some questions, and speaking gratitude to those who has understood. I do hope no one got anything different from my posts..
August 12th, 2011 at 8:19 am
@ Fried Fish (#15) :goodpost :clap All of it! After 20 years gone from CLC, I am still “accused” of speaking “SGM’ese” sometimes! LOL!
August 12th, 2011 at 8:25 am
@Rose #58: I would suspect (and would like to think) it was so that the initial communication was public and not “behind closed doors”. He easily could have sent it to Kris and said, “Please keep this private”, but I think that would send the wrong message. The events are public. The desire to make it right should be public too. And what better way than to seek them out on the very blogs that some SGM leaders have bashed?!
One of the biggest complaints against SGM is their lack of transparency and a “just trust us” kind of attitude. Josh seems to be eager to separate how CLC is doing things from how SGM is right now.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:35 am
I should have been clear that I was not addressing sgmnot, exCLCer, or ExClcer’s Mom. I think they should do what they think is right, and I would never fault them for whatever choice they made, nor would I try to influence them in any way.
What ticked me off (could you tell :D ) were the multitude of experts who seemed to be trying to influence the wounded parties, while pushing forward the “if you’re in sgm, you can’t possibly do anything right” agenda.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:36 am
ExCLCersMom #24:
:word :goodpost :clap
I’m saving that one.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:38 am
And I think that this initial contact, which is really a new paradigm, may also be public so that others will know they not excluded? A tacit acknowledgment that there must be (or at least may be) other stories yet untold? And may the Fairfax leadership among others be stirred in their consciences.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:41 am
@Kerrin said: “Greg was the principle at Covenant Life School. While in that position he advocated ‘Nazi like tactics’ in their educational system (he actually used those words and/or similar ones… my sources are previous teaches and students).”
There’s an fishy blend of confidence and uncertainty in that account: Greg recommended that school leaders act like Nazis. He ACTUALLY used THOSE WORDS. Or similar ones. That’s what I heard, at least.
When you lead your comment with a juicy bit of hearsay, then half-heartedly qualify your source, you know what readers will remember? The juicy bit. The Greg-Nazi connection. I know that most references to “gossip” and “slander” on this blog are spent shaking off those potential charges. But gossip and slander are indeed possible, and they are indeed bad.
Come on, @Kerrin, this is Veggie Tales kinda stuff.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:42 am
First sentence of my #65 should read “others will know they are not excluded.” English is my first language. Really. :)
August 12th, 2011 at 8:44 am
@ExCLCer’sMom… 5years in PDI wrote back at #2: May your mourning be turned to joy and God give back the years the locusts have eaten.
Then you wrote in #13 5yearsin PDI-Thank you! I love that Scripture, but am not familiar with it-do you have a reference for it? I will read/speak it daily!
It is actually not a scripture but a personal prayer taken from 2 scriptures. They are:
Jeremiah 31:13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
and Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
The context for the Jeremiah scripture is prophecy we are living in today. God says that he will bring the 10 tribes back after scattering them all over the earth. We are witnesses as He is doing that today.
The context for the Joel quote is applicable for our days too. Probably within about 15-20 years at the start of the Millenial Kingdom.
I hope this helps.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:46 am
@Whirlwind #64: I agree. We can oftentimes fail to leave our apology at “I was wrong and I’m sorry”. We can often try to save face in the process (I do that quite a bit, to my shame), which minimizes how it effected the victim. “I was wrong and I’m sorry. I really was doing the best I could, but I see blah blah blah blah, and you and blah blah blah.” Victims don’t want to hear all that.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:48 am
And CLC now has monies freed up from the salaries and benefits of two fulltime pastors. Why don’t they set up a retirement account for exCLCer Mom? She mentioned something in passing that made me believe she has no money for retirement. (Not surprising, in view of what she’s been through.)
August 12th, 2011 at 8:52 am
exCLCer’smom -- wow, just read your posts in this thread and the previous one. Wow -- so sorry for what you had to go through!!!! You have my respect for what you did -- a long, hard fight to get your family back! So sad that they had to be separated for so long, but wow, amazing that you where able to fight a well-funded machine that still, at the end, could not admit the dark, evil things done by your ex and the church.
As far as the post -- this is the first time that a letter like this has been posted on a blog. I have questions and concerns -- first they could have easily got the contact info for sgmnot and exclcer. Second, if you read the post closely, it seems to all about CYA, but time will tell the true intentions. Very similar to actions in a union avoidance plan that many companies have in place in case the unions try to get in -- get together and “talk” and let everyone know that management cares and can address your concerns without having to have a union vote.
Notice that the note doesn’t admit guilt and doesn’t apologize for what happen -- Greg just says he has failed in the past, but doesn’t say how he failed. He NEVER apologizes for what happened, in typical narcissistic response he turns it around to make it about his and sgm’s leadership’s grief. And he is doubly grieved that they are “disappointed” with the pastoral care they received. It’s just like when someone hurts you and they say “sorry you are hurt”.
As I have posted before, if sgm is serious about these evils that they have done, then it’s time for restitution. Restitution is a big part of standing up and admitting that you did something wrong.
For now, all I see is “We’re sorry you were hurt”
August 12th, 2011 at 8:52 am
ExClcer’s Mom,
Your posts are clear to me. You speak from a heart of grace and truth and wisdom. To me, I recognize your words as those from someone who has been healed and strengthened through your circumstances by the power of our Risen Lord. Yours are words from someone who now has the God-given ability to do what the Scriptures call us to do -- defend the weak, love justice and mercy and walk humbly with our God. I believe that God has molded you through all of this more and more into His image and He is obviously now desiring to use you to bring his mercy and justice to a broken world….for such a time as this. God bless you for your diligence as you sought to faithfully learn to hear and obey the Holy Spirit through these difficult years and not the voice of people….I too have learned this precious lesson after leaving my SGM church….as have many here. (You have all been such an encouragement to me.) God will continue to be faithful to you and guide you through this time. Stay strong in your belief that you will meet with Greg or others only if the Holy Spirit leads you to. I can hear in your words that your motive is pure in this -- for God’s glory and for the good of His people. I will continue to pray for your strength and God’s wisdom for you. I was completely blessed to read your words of grace and strength this morning.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:53 am
Abednigo and Phoenix, Thanks for your explanations. I was wondering if there was something in the technology that I was missing which would require the public posting. I’m not sure that the message that others are not excluded really comes across in a note address specifically to two individuals, but there are always limits in communications. I would be elated if I received such a communication, but my case is much less serious and involved and only happened one year ago, so the pastors involved could easily find me and leave it to me to go back to survivors and say, “It’s all good now,” or even just to say, “I was contacted, but not entirely happy with how the contact went.” The posting of the note as the blog post also doesn’t really work, if you don’t want everyone weighing in on it. It seems like it would have worked better just as one of the usual posts, though I suppose it might have gotten missed that way (not likely: as has been noted: it is historical, I suppose a CLC pastor deserves a blog post of his own, not just a comment).
August 12th, 2011 at 8:54 am
Phoenix wrote: And CLC now has monies freed up from the salaries and benefits of two fulltime pastors. Why don’t they set up a retirement account for exCLCer Mom? She mentioned something in passing that made me believe she has no money for retirement. (Not surprising, in view of what she’s been through.)
Me: Now that is what I am talking about -- RESTITUTION
August 12th, 2011 at 8:55 am
@Matt -- love to get back to your comments yesterday -- read them late last night and really interesting in engaging in a dialogue about your views on church polity, etc… Especially since some of what you expressed has been increasing @ CLC, but alas this is a super busy day and the recent developments from CLC, especially this letter from Greg is of superior importance.
@Jim #49 -- could have nuanced the word choice, but that is besides the point. You are spot on. To use your language, it has been said, and I agree too many Christians have the ‘spiritual gift’ of ‘B***hing’.
Guys/gals -- HOWEVER CLC is seeking to walk out repentance and right mistakes, they are seeking to do it. There is so much grace there. Who cares if Greg floats around some SGMese? And expressing his humility in the situation? Shall we not honor that? Shall we not be like the Lord? God gives grace to the humble. Did he come saying ‘I am glad that we are not like the pastors who sinned against you’ or did he come ‘beating his breast and say God have mercy on me for I am a sinner’? I think it is much closer to the latter.
Joshua and the other pastors are making HUGE strides in very short order. It is absolutely amazing to see how God is using this for good, and I can’t help but think of Joseph — what was meant for evil (not implying Brent was intending evil, but the sin that happened on both sides of that fence), God is using it for so much good. Yeah, so it may not be possible to go back and change the way the abuses were handled and in a perfect world millions of dollars could be given in restitution (would that really fix it?). So regardless of the outcome of this latest attempt of CLC to work through these issues, I hope if nothing else, the victims themselves will take comfort in knowing that one day they will face the Risen Savior and He will wipe the tears from their eyes. And sins committed will either be paid for by the blood of Christ or eternally in hell (depending on the repentance of the perp).
I, of course, really wish Brian and Mike’s pastoral leadership at CLC weren’t casualties in what was going on, but that seems to be now an unavoidable side effect in what is going on. But at this point CLC is making huge strides in a short amount of time, and they are doing what is humanly possible by the grace of God and not everyone is going to be on board, there or here, with everything and the way its done.
Please show the grace you’d like to receive on your own. Joshua has inherited a lot of former issues, and is absolutely seizing this as an opportunity to try to address them.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:02 am
To add one more thing to Jim and anSGMmember’s comments: People have (rightly) complained that pastors have turned their words on them because their presentation or wording wasn’t right and/or they didn’t use “Biblical language”, and that people weren’t allowed to just express their feelings any way they wanted to. But here we are getting stuck on their presentation or wording? I saw more of the big picture in his request. My mental paraphrase: “We really messed up. I’m grieved to hear what happened to you under our (lack of) care. I’d like to hear your story. Can we talk?” That’s fantastic. Even if the presentation isn’t to everyone’s liking.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:05 am
Just seeing this new post.
Um, sorry but who the he** is Greg? Better yet, who is “the pastors of covenant life” that he is writing on behalf of? Does this include CJ, Gary and John, or any pastors directly involved with my story?
With Greg not being directly involved (I presume -- I don’t know who he is), its interesting to read “the details are heartbreaking”, and “anguish these events have caused”, and “how disappointed you are with the pastoral care”, instead of “the decisions/judgments/action of the pastors are heartbreaking” or “anguish these pastors actions/words/decisions have caused” or “how disappointed WE also are with the pastoral care”.
Understand, this kind of wordage reeks of “sorry you felt that way”, NOT “sorry we were responsible for the wrong things we/they did”.
Validating how someone may feel is all good and well, but does nothing to validate to me that I/we are justified in feeling that way. I am presuming he has spoken to Gary and John (why wouldn’t he have?) and the wording of this letter just reiterates to me their need to word things so that there is no direct admission of personally doing something WRONG.
(ok I love analogies) It like if you heard your close friend punched another kid in the face (a younger vulnerable, trusting kid who looked up to you both), and you later went to that little kid that was punched, and said “I’m so sorry to see your lip still hurts…It really makes me sad to see your lip bleeding like that….I feel really heartbroken that your lip would be hurting and that YOU are disappointed with the kid who punched you”.
Ha. Wouldn’t it be better to say: “My friend should have never hit you, it was wrong, and I’m sorry they did that to you. I don’t stand for that kind of thing, and will speak out against it. I will tell my friend they were wrong and hope they will come to you and admit they should have never done that. You do have the right to be upset with him for hitting you and I am too”.??? Now THAT’S standing up for what’s right.
And I know, mom, you’re gonna pray on it and all….you KNOW how I feel about all that mess. For me, that’s like having one foot in their kool aid fun house. I don’t need a spiritual word to tell me what’s wrong is wrong, and that the only appropriate way to address it sincerely, is for the ones who have done wrong to stand up and say so unequivocally. And the only right thing to do if you’re an uninvolved party is to stand up and say what’s wrong is wrong, even if it’s your friend that did that wrong.
GARY, JOHN, ALL OTHERS WHO HAD A SAY IN THE DECISONS AT THE TIME — COME OUT AND ADMIT WHAT YOU DID WRONG! Don’t send forth some ambiguous party to offer “non-responsibility taking condolences”.
Greg, I do appreciate your effort. If in talking (and if you haven’t yet. by all means do) to Gary and John, you feel they did not do anything wrong, then we have nothing to talk about. If you did feel they did something wrong, then please be clear about that and don’t chalk it up to MY disappointment (implying maybe we expected too much) or details and events (implying it was beyond control). What’s unfortunate is that until involved or uninvolved parties see the actions done by these men as wrong, there will be little real change. A “policy” is only as good as the willingness of those who interpret and enforce it – policy has to be consistent with culture and values implemented from the top. I do hope your church puts some kind of protections in place to avoid any future incidents of abuse, and would express encouragement of the congregation to be aware, alert, and vigilant in protecting their children, and in the case of victims to be compassionate and loving and non-judgmental.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:08 am
Let My People Go,
Comment #72. :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 9:09 am
IMHO, the chorus of response has been a good mix of “Praise God, this is an historic first!” and “Woah, this smells like CYA” — as well as a variety of other reactions. I think we need to hear ALL the reactions — and more importantly the pastors do — especially after reading Brent’s documents with all the obfuscating “you’re so humble” and “evidences of grace” etc.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:11 am
OK… now we have proof the pastors at SGM and at least CLC read these blogs. I wonder: 1. how many others are lurking out there we don’t know about. and 2. curious how often the posts here and elsewhere are topics of their meetings. C’mon Greg, man up, tell us.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:14 am
@ExClcer; Really, really :goodpost :clap I was waiting to hear what you had to say-I knew it would be relevant, important, and really good.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:17 am
It is far too early to say if Jim is correct or Kerrin is correct.
A sociopath/con-man can utter the most sweet and silver tongued contrite expressions you ever heard to serve his own ends.
More is needed for proof of genuine repentance. It is really foolish to jump on the bandwagon, after watching SGM for 30 years, that this is genuine. Extremely foolish and nieve. Kerrin has shown himself to be astute.
It is also foolish to be completely cynical and not recognize that these pastors voted to stick with Josh against the board, which is a really huge step, and this might be the real deal.
So, we need to wait. There has to be more- this is a very flimsy apology but let’s wait and see what comes next.
Breeezey- “My thoughts are an apology without an offer of restitution of at least seven figures is not worth much. Conversation alone is just hot air.”
The world must be coming to an end….we agree on something :D
August 12th, 2011 at 9:24 am
I don’t have time to read through all the comments now, but I just wanted to say something.
Within the last year, I have spent time on the phone with Greg and another person while they talked through horrible treatment of a prior student of CLS. Greg never argued, dismissed or lessened what he’d done. He spent a lot of time working through the situation and I felt that he did a lot.
Also, others have told me that, on his own, he has gone to families he hurt while the kids were at CLS. This has been going on for a few years. I do not believe that Greg was given instructions to do this and I don’t believe he was forced to.
In speaking to him, I believe he was acting upon the prompting of the Holy Spirit’s conviction.
I have also been told and we ware able to see it in an email exchange that was posted here months ago. CJ was flat out against any acknowledgement of people who had been hurt as well as the blogs. Kind of like if you plug your ears, the sound will go away. Josh pushed to acknowledge blogs and CJ and his “yes” men strongly disagreed. Remember the “small group of embittered people?” So, now that CJ is out of the picture, CLC can do what they want.
I don’t trust any of them. I do have a great struggle, because I feel that everything they do is strategic and has something else behind it.
But, I just want to say that I have seen a genuine-ness in Greg.
I’m not advocating anyone talking with any of them. I still feel that we NEED to know why Gary and John ignored ExCLCer and her family all these years.
But, since people who don’t know Greg are coming out against him (as well as others who do), I figured I’d just share my experience.
Sidney
August 12th, 2011 at 9:25 am
I commend Greg for this first step. It is a public one, admitting he has done somethings wrong is great. To expect him to be specific about what those things are in a public forum I think is a bit premature. Let him make the first contact with out expecting him to show blood from beating himself for his mistakes(or the mistakes of others). Let him apologize to those he has wronged privately. CLC is undergoing a drastic and radical pruning(or maybe it is just parts flying of as the mother-ship prepares to disembark. This certainly is a wild ride!) Be patient and extend grace.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:29 am
I think there are some aspects of presentation that mean something. I think either a private communication, or something addressed to everyone, or a simple comment to the current post would have been way less ostentatious. Anyway, it’s done now. I hope it goes well and that the authoritarianism and abuse are discarded. Old habits die hard, and as I believe it was exCLCer’s mom said in an earlier post, when someone really repents you can tell because they can’t wait to do what is right. Otherwise, it is just words to try to make things go easier for them. In this case, Sommerville isn’t directly involved, but there is something in his conscience that he wishes would “go easier” right now. Perhaps the fruit of it will be true repentance in any possible cases where he was directly involved. Perhaps his example will be used by God to prick other pastors into doing what they need to do to make things right with those who have something against them before they offer their gift on the altar.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:39 am
Once again, thank you to all who have been so encouraging here. I appreciate your compassion and understanding.
@Sidney (#83): It is reassuring to hear that Greg has walked humbly in his own mistakes already. I do not know him at all.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:45 am
I am a current CLC member and have been for 12 years. I only found out about the blogs and any issues after the announcement of CJ’s leave of absence. I was completely blindsided by this. Quite frankly I’m moritifed by what i’ve read and even more so at how blind i was to :worm (this is me, the worm, crawling out of my hole and opening my eyes to the rest of the world) any reality outside SGM and CLC. I have reflected on how judgmental i’ve become as i measure EVERYTHING and EVERYONE by CLC standards of godliness, including my wife and kids. I’m not saying we don’t get taught about God’s abundant Grace but as i reflect on all these posts it does very much seem that the culture is to spend most of our time “sniffing” out sin in each other and ourselves and putting it to death. I know that if I am a true follower of Christ then i will want to put sin to death. But i also know even more so that HE has covered ALL of those past, present and future sins (which is not a license to continue in sin)! How much more “freeing” is it to focus on that great news of Grace rather than be constantly searching for sin to crucify and be mortified about? Lately i’ve pretty much stayed mortified and it sucks!
I just wanted to ask if anyone has noticed that Gary’s name isn’t on the letter sent to the members from Josh about Brian and Mike’s departure? I don’t really have time to read all the posts and try to keep up every other day or so. Actually i spend a lot of time reading old posts to get the history and all the testimonies. Any thoughts on this?
Also, and more relevant to this thread, let’s not be quick to judgement on Greg’s motives. From what i’ve read judgementalism is one of the biggest “problems” posters on here speak of about SGM. Moving forward in wisdom is called for and lack of trust seems to be appropriate but not immediately assuming (judging) the worst though i can see how history could offer that lense to view Greg’s letter through. God may very well be at work, and frankly only time will tell. If you look at the events over the last few months you must admit that MASSIVE things have been happening! God has their attention! I would also ask you all to consider what this is doing to current members, at least those willing to open their minds to all sides and draw their own conclusion. This is very painful and challenging (not at all to compare with what most of you have endured) to a large number of people and families.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:50 am
Mom #35--
You are absolutely right to draw the distinction between personal involvement with the situation and the more general statement that Mr. Somerville is making (which is a great first step as far as it goes). However, a quick Google search reveals that Mr. Ricucci and Mr. Loftness are still operating within the SGM sphere. Plus, this gross mishandling happened on CJM’s watch. So, since God is still giving them life and breath, why will they not own up to their failure to minister grace and genuine help to a family in critical need, and to keep a sexual predator from bearing the full weight of his crime?
A couple of weeks ago at my PCA church we sang Bob Kauflin’s adaptation of John Wesley’s hymn “Depth of Mercy.” One verse in particular seems appropriate here:
Give me grace Lord let me own
All the wrongs that I have done
Let me now my sins deplore
Look to You and sin no more
There for me the Savior stands
Holding forth His wounded hands
Scars which ever cry for me
Once condemned but now set free
Psalm 32:5 says, “Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”— and you forgave the guilt of my sin.”
May God open blind eyes and pour out His grace on SGM pastors and powers-that-be, that may own the wrongs that they have done and perpetuated over many years and even to this day. May He give abundant mercy that they would, from the heart, deplore their sins and cast themselves on Jesus, the righteous Judge and only Savior.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:58 am
Mom,
Can we chat? I just want to connect with you since I watched your situation play out. And it’s breaking my heart. I have talked with ExCLCer via email. She can give you my email address.
If you’d rather not, that’s fine. :)
Sidney
August 12th, 2011 at 10:00 am
A pastor publicly posting to the blogs. Selah. (Pausing to contemplate.)
Thank you, Greg, for acknowledging that there are legitimate people here with real testimonies of their time in your organization.
If these particular folk who do not accept your offer of a private meeting, I urge you to continue to seek the Lord as to how He may ask you to proceed in your ministry, as a man, as a brother, as a pastor. I am heartened that your ears have turned to hearing.
Breezey in number 68 you said:
I really hesitate to hijack this thread, but I couldn’t let this go by. Spreading the news that the Millennial Kingdom is going to be here within two decades may be true, but I venture to guess that you have absolutely no proof, therefore I advise you to be very careful when seeking to time the return of the Lord and His sitting on the throne as King over His Kingdom. (I also advise you to read the above verses in context and you’ll see that we are certainly NOT living according to the remainder of the promises in verses directly before and after the ones you quoted. In the Joel passage verse 19, the Israelites are living in a time when there is no reproach against them -- and we know there is MUCH reproach against the Jews today. The Jeremiah passage, verse 34 declares that all of the house of Israel and the house of Judah will know God while we know that many of those houses are avowed atheists and unbelievers in the One True God and His Messiah Jesus.)
One thing we do know: God is answering the prayers of many who have cried for reform, repentance and change within SGM. It starts one man at a time. One heart at a time. One revelation at a time. One attempt at a time.
Each man in leadership has so much to change: his understanding and his theology, his methodology and his thinking. There is so much work to be done in each man before they can gather together to make sense of the newness of the day and then reach out to the congregations gathered around them, who are looking to them for answers.
First each pastor and leader needs to find the questions he must ask and only then can each pastor and leader come the answers IF they have willingness to seek and hearts to hear what the Lord is saying to them as individuals.
I, for one, will be praying that they are able to do the hard work as scales of blindness appear to be falling away from their eyes and the world around them is not what it has been.
Greg is one man taking one step towards attempting to understand one event (or two). Whether he can be proven trustworthy will be seen. Meanwhile, I applaud the man’s willingness to publicly acknowledge a person on the blogs. I view it as no small feat but a mighty work of the Lord in answer to prayers.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:01 am
Greg puts out a uber-mensch letter of kindness that’s allegedly historic. That’s getting play here. Yet, some context and caution. Syndey expresses distrust at #83.
Longingforheaven is on to something and catches the wider view. That is, while Greg issues the letter, a CLC blogger (a CLC Pastor?) gives the wave-off to Detwiler and the Survivors Blogs. I call your attention to Longingforheaven’s post. A hat tip to Longingforheaven who caught the scent of it. I’ll post it and then make some observations.
Post #6, paragraph 3, in the blockquote.
“But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.”
Observations on this:
1. This wave-off and prohibition of reading Brent Detwiler and the Survivor blogs is offered by an unidentified CLC blogger. Is it a Pastor? It’s not clear. It occurs in the context of Greg’s letter. But, the basic thrust is clear: do not read.
2. Observe the “delimiting” function the CLC blog puts forward. “But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life…”
3. Observe that this is a CLC imposed assumption in the “If” statement. No analyst will grant unexamined assumptions such as have been made.
4. Message to CLCers (and all others), do not read Detwiler or the Survivor blogs because it “concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility…” In other words, if you are not a Pastor with these pastoral responsibilities, stay out of it. Don’t read. It’s our business, not your’s, not Detwiler’s, not bloggers’, nor anyone else’s, inside or outside CLC or SGM. Why? It “concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility…”
5. Put on a national level and with this assumption, “…if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life…,” the all Christians worldwide should not read Detwiler or the Survivor blogs. Ergo, Dr. Duncan, Dr. Mohler, Dr. Dever, and T4G celebrities, do not read Detwiler or the Survivor Blogs.
6. Message to CLCers (and all others), do not read Detwiler or the Survivor blogs because the victim/s have no “significant influence on your life.” In other words, if Detwiler or the abused have no significance for your life, stay out of it. It’s not your business.
7. Observe the selfishness and narcissism of the phrase, if there is no “significant influence on your life.”
8. Observe the stupidities. These are debunked with ease. (1) Hitler had “no significant influence on my life,” therefore, I shouldn’t study WW2 history. For undergraduate and graduate students in history, don’t use this excuse with your Professor in failing to study that section of WW2 history. He won’t buy it. But, if you followed the CLC-blogger’s recommendation, that’s the excuse he’d recommend for not reading WW2 history since Hitler “has no significant influence on your life .” (2) “Criminal law” has no influence on my life, therefore, I should not take the law course in criminal law this semester. I have no criminal record. But, to follow the CLCer blogster, I should not study “Criminal Law” this semester since “it has no significant influence in my life.” (3) Anabaptists “have no significant influence” on my life, therefore, I should not study Anabaptist history. Or, since it is not “my responsibility,” since “it has not significant influence in my life,” and since I can’t “probably do much about it,” therefore, I should not read the news, blogs, TV or internet accounts re: sexual offenders in the Roman church, the murder that occurred locally, the national budget deficit, the Supreme Court decision on abortion, or the recent Casey Anthony trial.
9. Observe that once the illogicalities are posted, the unctuous nature of the CLC blogger becomes more apparent.
10. This CLC blog drops the bottomline and objective: “…you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him.”
11. “About him” refers to C.J. Mahaney. Inferrably, this may extend to his circle, including Dave Harvey. Reading “about him” is generally forbidden here. Yet, should we read anything “by him” if we can’t know “about him?”
12. The CLC-blogger makes a concession of (some) factuality and truth. “Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it.” He uses the singular, “report.” It’s not clear what he means.
13. There is no mention of “what parts” are true.
14. It’s a concession without stated evidence.
15. Mahaney and Harris have indicated that there is truth in Detwiler’s documents. Mahaney acknowledged at SGM ministries blog that he—Mahaney—has seen his own leadership problems for the last 5 years.
16. Since the CLC-blogger doesn’t develop the “if the report is true,” and, given the context, truth is not what it sought in the post. The big picture in the post: don’t read Detwiler or the Survivor Blogs.
17. A falsehood is offered. “Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it.” Or, retranslated” “Here’s the message, CLCers, you can’t do much about it, so don’t bother with the reading.” That’s wrong. That’s false. It’s error. There is plenty that can be done. Object and reason at public meetings. Write letters. Write emails. Withhold tithes. If needed, vote with one’s feet. Make informed decisions based upon an intelligent and careful review of the evidence. Refuse to submit to anti-intellectualism, e.g. don’t read widely. Repudiate the self-absorbed and narcissistic notion that you won’t read about anyone unless they have a “significant influence on your life.” Insist on specific rebuttals to Detwiler in writing and for review. Insist on financial restitution to those who were abused. Insist upon financial disclosures for SGM. Who’s getting paid what? Where there is truth expressed, share it. To suggest that “nothing can be done” is false.
18. A lack of confidence in CLC (and other) parishioners and a distrust in their rational faculties is expressed: “If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person.”
19. Given the assumptions that Pastors are abiters of truth and readings lists, notice they haven’t determined what’s true and what’s not. If they wanted “to serve” the flock, they’d do better by pointing to the “specific parts” that are false or wrong.
20. The CLC blog lays it on thick: “Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others.” It is not clear how this sentence functions, but is it an imputation of Satanic lies, slander and poison in the Detwiler documents and the Survivor blogs? In fact, is Satanic impulse at the root of Detwiler’s report and the Survivors Blogs?
21. “Slander” and “poison” are the two darts. Whose slander? Detwiler’s and the blogs?
22. Given #12 above, there was no comment on the role, might, competence, impulse, gift and discernment brought by the Holy Spirit to aid readers in the Detwiler documents or blog. Christians, by spiritual gifting, want truth, honor, facts and integrity. Yet, the CLC bloggers show no concern for this.
23. Observe this very closely. This CLC blog expresses no confidence in the Holy Spirit and the believer. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit shaping hearts and minds that aim for “truth, facts, and moral rectitude.” The Holy Spirit creates truth-lovers. Rather, we hear a veiled, if not explicit, allusion to the Devil, darts and slander and not a single word about the Holy Spirit.
24. The CLC blogger concludes as he started. “So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.” In short, if you don’t have responsibility for someone, do not read.
Interpretation:
Do not read the Detwiler documents or the Survivor Blogs because: (1) it’s not your responsibility, (2) it does not involve someone with significant influence in your life, (3) you can’t do much about it, (4) you will have poisoned your mind, (5) the Devil loves all this, and (6) you will have participated in slander.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:02 am
I think some of you need to get over yourselves about Greg’s attempt to reach out. Some of you are so bitter that you can do nothing but see the negative in what could be positive. Let this man say what he thinks. Why is he suppose to apologize by just reading someone’s account of what happened. For years people on this blog have posted an desired recognition and contrition from CLC and SGM. Now it may be happening and all you can come up with is this is CYA. I’m with Guy and Jim. This is a big deal! Personally, I don’t think they (CLC pastors) can be expected to do much more than this initially. If after a meeting it’s clear that there’s no change then let’s cut their heads off but until then stop being ‘unwise’ (sorry I just had to), let’s see if they are genuine.
Having said that if Exclcer and mom don’t want to meet then don’t do it. I’m fine with whatever you do. I just want there to be some real closure for you and not just a ‘shaking off the sandals of your feet.’ If you all do this meeting, you may be setting up foundation change so that this stuff doesn’t happen again by them or any SGM church for that matter. Who am I though. My experience is different so you do what you think is best.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:04 am
From the CLC website: “Greg moved to Gaithersburg and joined Covenant Life Church in 1987, eventually leading a Care Group and being encouraged by Robin Boisvert and others to explore a calling for pastoral ministry.
Greg served eight years with what is now Sovereign Grace Ministries, editing its magazine and “The Pursuit of Godliness” book series. He came on staff at Covenant Life School in 1995 to oversee development of the high school and, within two years, accepted C.J. Mahaney’s invitation to become a pastor.”
So it seems Greg WAS there at CLC at the time….somewhere between the position of CG leader and pastor…..hmm, wonder if he was privy to any of the details then. Were you Greg? Im fairly sure Robin Boisvert was “in the know” at the time (mom- can you confirm this?) If Greg knew the situation then, and had any involvement, it would beg the question of what stance he took on it then and in contrast where he stands on it now. If he didn’t know and wasn’t involved then I go back to my previous statement about standing up for whats right in light of what is known now.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:05 am
@Donald, you included this quote: “The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.”
“But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.”
I’d like to focus on a part that most people seem to either not be reading or glossing over: “The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.”
I read that as Josh saying that since the pastors do have a level of influence in our lives, it would be perfectly normal and even good to spend time thinking about and analyzing Brent’s documents…in the same way one would spend time researching a president prior to voting in November. I did not read that as a silencing mechanism at all. Josh even writes: “If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.” Josh has previously in the same post agreed that Brent’s documents contain truth.
We as a body, do have a certain responsibility to respond to these things because CJ has held a place of influence (right or wrong) and there are things we can do to change it.
Anyway, I guess I just read it differently and have a different perspective.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:07 am
So Mr. Somerville, are you asking us to believe that you have been clueless up until now about these abuse situations which have festered for years?
The reason I’m with Kerrin and Ellie on this one is because it is highly likely that all SGM pastors have been aware for many years that abuse has occurred in some churches. And they all kept quiet about it. Not one ever spoke up until now.
Now as in the past, these men talk with each other and the top dogs would be stupid if they never communicated instructions to lower echelon pastors on how to handle these situations when they arise. Their modus operandi has been to cover up and quieten down the victims in whatever way they could.
Now things have changed. The cat is out of the bag for all the world to see. I have trouble believing that these men recently awakened to all this and are suddenly sincerely apologetic.
All institutions realize that abuse situations, especially those involving sexual abuse, are litigation prone. The empire must be protected. These men make good money and if SGMers begin exiting in droves, paychecks will be affected. I agree with Kerrin that this is likely an attempt at CYA. Any of these men could contact the people whose lives have been ill affected in private. That would come across as far more sincere to me than making a big splash on a blog so that current SGM followers can say, “Aw, look how hard our pastors are trying to make amends. They’re doing their best.”
Well no, they are not doing their best. Men like Mr. Somerville could contact the pastors whose names have been mentioned on this blog and demand accountability from them to see that justice is done. Where is their outright disgust for the way their fellow pastors have handled these situations?
August 12th, 2011 at 10:15 am
exCLCer 77
your post is perfect. your analogy is perfect. what you have asked for needs to happen. it is what they would require of any of us should the roles be reversed. your position is wise and correct. hold on to it. hold it right in their faces until they see it. be unrelenting, because you are right, so you can be bold and completely unyielding. be so annoyingly right and stand them face to face and make them confess the way that they have taught us to confess for years, and for much smaller offenses.
and tell them that acknowledging this is just the tip of the iceberg of all of the people they have harmed.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:17 am
@ ExCLCer #77 -- Greg was formally the pastor in charge of CLS (if memory serves me correctly) and is now serving in the family life ministry. Since this all falls under that ministry and the leader of that ministry up and left (Brian), these initial contacts are probably delegated to him. The pastors are working so hard to address so much right now. I can tell you their schedule is packed and there needs to be some delegation.
Greg is one of the gentlest, humble, and empathetic men I’ve interacted with. He is soft spoken, quick to listen, and I think he is a perfect choice to make these initial connections.
@ Mr. Nobody #87 -- Gary is not a pastor at CLC anymore, hence the lack of signature. None of the Sovereign Grace pastors signed the letter. That would include Gary, Bob, Jeff, and CJ.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Mr. Nobody #87--
I noticed that Gary’s name was missing but I think it must be because he isn’t technically a CLC pastor but is with SGM. More striking to me was the absence of Bob Kauflin’s name. According to the CLC website, he is a CLC pastor.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:20 am
To be honest I can see very little biblical backup for most of the posts being made on this sight. Don’t you people have anything better to do? The lack of forgiveness and grace exhibited by most of you leads me to believe that you have become worse then thing you hate most. Perhaps you should try providing biblical back up with each post which I sure will reduce the nonsense by about 80%.
Most of the posters seem to be without sin. That is truly amazing and I would love to know how you do that. Most of you seem to think you have some biblical mandate to judge and throw stones via the web and hold on to you hurt more then you hold onto the cross. I would love to talk to your family members, co-workers, look at your tax returns and web sight viewing and see just how you all are living your lives. No doubt the response would be about the same as when Christ confronted people about to stone the women caught in adultery.
Where is your understanding of the Gospel? Where is your understanding of your own sin?
No I am not a SGM member or X-SGM.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Ishmael said:
Really? Get over myself? Nice.
Maya Angelou once said “Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
Im not bitter- Im angry. And seeing the negative AND the positive is using the common sense of critical thinking. No one stopped him (Greg)from saying what he thinks, and I did not “demand he apologize” for something he (to my knowledge) had no direct involvement in. Actually the opposite.
Why does anyone assume I (or anyone else who has been hurt)has some pressing need for “closure”?? I feel they have more to gain from this “bringing to light” than I do. I cant get back those years, and have accepted that. I cant change what they have done. I know this. Only they can change what they do from now on, and my only way of knowing that they are doing so is carefully analyzing their words and actions. For me, nothing short of the people who were wrong, saying they were wrong, would show me that.
Don’t judge people for being suspicious or critical when you aren’t the one who has BEEN THERE to feel the pain of indifference, and you’re not the one who now has to weigh the pros and cons of allowing yourself to be put into a position to possibly be used as an example of someones contrition with no real accountability being made.
Save your get over it speech. Not interested in hearing it from you or anyone. Not your place, not your right, and not complimentary to character and integrity.