Kris says: Yesterday, I received the following from Covenant Life Church pastor GS, with a request that I post it…
Dear exCLCer and SGMnot,
This past week I read the stories that you posted on SGMSurvivors. The details are heartbreaking for me, the pastors of Covenant Life, and the members of our church. I cannot imagine the anguish these events have caused for you and your families. I am doubly grieved to know how deeply disappointed you are with the pastoral care you received during that crisis and in the years following.
In my 14 years of pastoral ministry at Covenant Life Church, I have so often failed to love and care for God’s people the way I should. If it weren’t for the grace of our Lord Jesus and the forgiveness of the saints, this pastor would not have the faith to keep caring for God’s precious church. Stories like yours cause me to cry out for more of God’s Spirit, more of God’s heart. I do
not want to fail his children in their time of deepest need!
I realize you don’t have much confidence in the pastors of Covenant Life Church right now, and I can understand that. But would you be willing to talk with me about your experience? Though I am sure it would be painful to review the details, I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future. And if
nothing else, I hope I could express the grief we feel for the suffering you have endured.
Kris has my e-mail address — please let her know if you are willing for me to contact you about this. In the meantime I will be praying for you and your family.
On behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,
GS
(Family Life Pastor)
August 12th, 2011 at 10:31 am
pseudonym for a reason #95 :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 10:33 am
@Be Careful,
Here’s what I know: these guys have been very calculating (especially in their communication) and they have shown no acknowledgement thus far of being so. Perhaps, they are beginning to be affected by the negative fruits of the system they’ve created and propagated. I just have seen very little indicating that this isn’t more of the same: calculated communication; propaganda. It would be far more believable (to me) if they acknowledge their specific mistakes, missteps, tactics, methodologies, etc. that have caused all of this damage first. This type of communication seems more expedient to me.
The people I heard that quote from about Greg are not willing to be public at this time. I could produce many who went to that school and were damaged by the use of Greg’s tactics. My brother and sister being two. The kind of abuse that has occurred in CLC and CLS (not just the sexual abuse) is pervasive spiritual/psychological abuse. And I don’t want anyone else to be damaged by this.
Veggie Tails is a clever entertainment, by the way.
@Ishmael,
I am not “so bitter that [I] can do nothing but see the negative in what could be positive.” I am calling things as I see them. It’s my opinion based on experience, observation, and analysis. Am I upset at what this system has done to people? Hell yes! Sometimes I’m even angry. Show me the positive and I’ll jump on board. So far I haven’t seen much.
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”—George Bernard Shaw
August 12th, 2011 at 10:36 am
Kerrin! #100 “The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”—George Bernard Shaw :idea: :idea: :idea: :!:
Yes!
August 12th, 2011 at 10:44 am
For those who have expressed curiosity and/or concern about how Mr. Somerville’s message was posted publicly here, rather than conveyed to specific people behind the scenes -
My impression is that Mr. Somerville wanted to make his appeal not just to exCLCer and SGMnot, but also to anyone else who might have had a similar experience.
And…considering SGM’s huge and problematic obsession with privatizing and confidentializing anything negative, I actually think an open letter is a better way to go.
I would encourage everyone not to be too cynical about this first step. It’s a good first step.
I would also encourage Mr. Somerville to step outside his SGM box and look at the larger picture. As he thinks about exCLCer’s and SGMnot’s stories, he needs to realize that the harsh and hard-hearted responses of the pastors involved in those situations have much broader root causes. He needs to understand that there is a much MUCH bigger problem beneath the surface than just two (or a half-dozen or however many) badly handled cases of sexual abuse.
Yes, it is horrific to read about CLC’s crazy and bass-ackwards ( :D ) reactions to victims of sex abuse. Absolutely horrific. And Mr. Somerville is right, in that it’s important for CLC pastors to seek out those mistreated victims and make personal amends with them.
But -- and this is NOT in any way to minimize what exCLCer, her mom, SGMnot, and anyone else out there have experienced -- there is actually something else that needs to be done, something that is just as important as making personal amends. And that is that all SGM pastors need to examine what motivated them to react to sex abuse victims (and perps) the way that they have. What was going on in the organization that caused pastors to have such self-righteous and harsh and downright icky responses to victims? What is it about what these pastors believe that makes them so jacked up when victims come to them?
What teachings and beliefs do they need to ditch? What was it (what IS it?) about SGM that has made the organization take such a “get over it” attitude toward victims while at the same time happily minimizing perpetrators’ deep-seated tendencies that (research tells us) almost never go away?
What was it (or what IS it?) about SGM that has set up an atmosphere where known sex offenders are allowed to have their past misdeeds forgotten (and not just forgiven) while clueless parents continue to permit their children to freely mingle with these perps?
See, while I believe that yes, it is important for SGM/CLC pastors to reach out to all victims of specific situations, I actually think it is just as important for these pastors to examine the trends. Examine the root causes. Examine what it is about what their organization has trained them to believe what enabled these horrific things to happen in the first place.
Until they do this -- and publicly and specifically and loudly recant and repent of all the false beliefs and teachings that have fostered such a crazy environment -- SGM churches will never be “normal.”
August 12th, 2011 at 10:46 am
By the way , Kris, I have posted my e-mail addy in previous posts, and both Gary and John have my contact information, but in case Greg couldn’t get it from those sources, please feel free to give him my email address. If Greg truly wants to understand my experience and learn to “better serve families” by it, then I am willing to give him my two cents on how I think that could be done. Not that my experience wasn’t pretty clearly detailed and outlined point by excruciating point in my story on here. And not that he couldn’t find some pretty valid and positive recommendations from the comments section of this blog in order to achieve that. I haven’t been adverse to any contact anyone has wanted to make with me concerning all of this (for YEARS-remember I have been the one “reaching out” for years now”). But as I’ve said before, I will not hear any undercover coded church talk, I am only willing to communicate in real world, real life terms, with common sense, and truth. When someone is ready to say what was done was wrong, I will listen.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:56 am
@PrayingforCLC@#94.
1. I understand your point. But even in paragraph 2 we hear another “delimitation.” It’s a carefully crafted blog-post.
“The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.”
2. On balance, a reasonable person reading the CLC blog (was it Mr. Harris?) would infer that, unless directly involved, all others should stay away from Detwiler’s documents and the blogs. In other words, if one has no responsibilites in these areas and if there is no direct relationship to the issue or reports, it’s best to stay away. I think that’s a common sense reading of the CLC-blogger’s post.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:57 am
ExClcer, to confirm your post (#92): Ah, Robin Boisvert..so much history there..he was the one to officiate at my wedding back in 1977. For a time, he was at the associated church in PA, but I do remember getting a phone call from him once, to say how sorry he was. It was not a long phone call, and we only spoke once (to the best of my memory), and honestly, I think it was a general sorry that this was happening to me, to which I tried to reassure him that none of us (except the perp himself, and God) knew this could happen, and that I appreciated his empathy. That was at the very beginning of things, 1987. I do not remember speaking to him after that. Doris Tomczak called me once, and we spoke at length. I think she felt a strong desire to help, and she was such an encouragement to me. We spoke once more, and then she called me, to tell me that while her heart broke over the matter, she could not be my friend through this, because I really needed to look toward my caregroup leaders at that time (Dave and Cathy Mays) because they were who God put close to me for support. I really got no support there (Cathy Mays was the one to suggest I send my abused daughter away, to allow the perp to return home), so that left me with dear Cathie Farr-a true friend to me, but who had literally just given birth to her 8th child! I could tell that Doris was almost in tears when she spoke those words to me. I could tell they were not words from her heart, but something she had been dictated to do. So, our family was “delegated” to JL, GR, and the Mays, initially. How much the pastors discussed between themselves I never really made much of my concern, so I really dont know. What pastors were at my “leaving meeting”, other than JL and GR, I dont remember even if there were others. I never questioned your sister about which pastors were at the meeting they “encouraged” her to go to before she got married, but I am pretty sure it was more than just JL and GR.
Also, can you either send me Sidney’s email, or give her mine?
August 12th, 2011 at 10:59 am
exCLCer, am I remembering correctly…you wrote to the CLC pastors every year to keep the issue fresh in their minds?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:02 am
james morris 99
“No I am not a SGM member or X-SGM.”
this is why i understand your comment. seeing irate people, without a complete understanding of why they are irate, can cause well-meaning people to comment like you did. spend 10, 15, or 20 years in a pdi/sgm church. maybe then you will have a little more understanding of our nonsense.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:07 am
Kerrin-great to see you here. You don’t remember me but I prayed for your sister a long, long time ago. I was very worried about the parenting “techniques” that the leadership was encouraging your parents to follow to keep her in line--for lack of a better phrase. I tried once or twice to gently steer your parents to a more balanced approach. I was much younger than they with little parenting experience, but I just felt like everyone was “tightening the noose” on your sister. I left CLC before I knew of any outcomes, and frankly, I could not look back for a long, long while. Heck, I even had to take a detour when I drove by the CLC Compound for many years. Yes Yes Yes. Psychological and Spiritual abuse are rampant and affecting far more people than the more obvious offenses. I have a hard time telling my story because it is almost all psychological abuse and hard to tell. God Bless!
August 12th, 2011 at 11:10 am
@exCLCer you just proved exactly my point about bitterness. My initial comments about people needing to get over themselves was not about you at all. A bunch of people, that are not you, have commented on Greg’s letter with the negative, rather than the potential that this could be a breakthrough. That comment wasn’t directed at you at all. As well, I’m not the only person who has expressed some of the same sentiments regarding Greg’s letter. So pardon me if I NOW think you may be bitter solely because you’re reading into that statement as if I was only talking to you.
As far as the whole closure thing, you are right. I was only thinking in the way most people feel when these types of situations happen and that statement was only trying to express concern for what happened and what needs to happen.
Lastly, until you know my story don’t tell me to save my get over it speech. You have no idea what I have gone through. Your story is horrific but it’s not THE story here. My comments are in the same veins as everyone else’s here. I have a right to say what I want just as you do. Please don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining. If I don’t address you directly then don’t come at me like that. Or better, why do you get to stay how you feel and I don’t? Personally, I would love to see some sort of compensation happen for you and your mom etc., but jumping on my comment without knowing who I am speaking of is just as out of line as me ” being suspicious or critical.” I’m sorry you’ve been hurt…
@Kerrin again I find it amazing that without me naming names in my original post you also are speaking up as if I was directly talking to you. If I recall I believe I said “some of you.” The fact that you took that to mean you may be that it is you. Listen, Kerrin, I’ve read your story and feel bad about what happened. It must be hard to see anything good from your history there. However let my comments be based on my own ” experience, observation, and analysis” as you say yours are. I have never questioned what you have said. Please steer clear of questioning mine unless I directly speak to you.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:13 am
pseudonum -
#109 = :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 11:21 am
Hello all :new
I am a former CLC high school student that was expelled by Greg. This led to me leaving the church for good within the next year. What a mess that place was, talk about poor handling of teenage rebellion. Although I will be the first one to say how screwed up the school system (and youth group) was then and how it left such an impression on me during my teen years that I have never returned despite the rest of my family still attending (My parents have been in/around the church since it’s founding so I know all about CLC and have followed from a distance the recent goings ons the last few months.)I have to add that Sydneys post 83 is accurate. A few years after my expulsion by Greg, Greg sought me out completely outside of CLC and apologized for the way my situation was handled. He admitted to me the wrong ways in which they led the school and he actually wanted advice on ways I thought things could be changed for the better. I felt he was entirely sincere and that it was actually a fruitful discussion. Having said this I gained a lot of respect for Greg and I feel like this letter although it may not be worded exactly how everyone wants, is at least sincere. Hopefully this is the beginning of a lot of changes at CLC, a place that really had some negative effects on me during my 17+ years of attendance.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:26 am
@Ishmael: I understand your reaction, as well as the reaction of others. Please, let us all remember that almost everyone who posts here is, or has been, wounded in some way or another. Knowing this, let us be patient with each other..some may be quick to feel accused when they are not deserving of such accusations..others may feel particularly “left out” if not specifically mentioned..all typical reactions to wounded spirits. Let us all please handle each poster here with gentleness.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:34 am
Something else occurred to me as I was re-reading my #104. And that is, one of the heart-rending side effects of SGM’s bad and abusive responses in situations like exCLCer’s is that many who have been harmed by SGM’s faulty beliefs and assumptions have gone on to decide that all of the gospel of Jesus is faulty.
SGM pastors -- who claim to believe that the gospel of Jesus is “the main thing” -- think about that for a moment. Actually, think about that for way more than a moment.
Because of your harsh responses to victims, responses that flow out of SGM’s false and cultic shepherding ideas about pastoral authority and the pastor’s role as being primarily one of confronting and “rooting out” sin in members’ lives, there are people out there (SGM’s victims) who have equated your wrong practices with the gospel…and have then gone on to condemn the gospel of Jesus.
Yes. Think about that. Just dwell on that.
You claim to think the work of “the Savior” is “the main thing.” But really, you have cheapened and trampled that work. You have misrepresented that work by presenting a false view of what ought to be good news (the literal translation of “gospel”). You have turned the good news of Jesus upside down, to where your victims now equate Jesus with mean men who tell downtrodden abused people to get over themselves, to look at their own sins, and to move on.
We will all stand before God and answer for ourselves one day about what we did with the news of Jesus. We will all have sole responsibility for our own responses to the gospel. That is true.
So I’m not going to say that those who have decided to reject Jesus because of your false and cultic practices will somehow get a free pass from God.
But, I certainly would not want to be responsible for misrepresenting Jesus to the people who have rejected Him because He was misrepresented.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:38 am
Re ExCLCer’s mom -- #107 What a load of hooey that anyone, whether they are pastors, caregroup leaders or whatever should have the authority to tell us who our friends should be. This has been one of my long standing pet peeves with SGM -- the pastors are only friends with themselves and a few hand chosen clones and the rest of us are taught that our friends should only be those people in our caregroups. Fortunately, some of that has eased up in the last 10 years or so and personally, I am better friends with long time friends who have since left SGM. FFX used to teach about friendship and loyalty but when the rubber hit the road, the leadership was not your friend and when you left, as we did, noone bothered to follow up with us even though we had been there from the beginning.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:41 am
@Kris #115 -- I have thought about this verse several times when thinking about exCLCer and family:
But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (Mt. 18:6)
August 12th, 2011 at 11:43 am
pseudonym for a reason: I wonder what it will take for people to move on? I see a lot of “if SGM does this or that I will let it go” type comments. To be honest I don’t think some people want to let it go and nothing that is said or done will make a difference. That is not the gospel.
What would make a person stay at a SGM church for 10-15 years if they were being hurt so badly?
James
August 12th, 2011 at 11:45 am
@Whirlwind.. :word :clap
August 12th, 2011 at 11:48 am
ExCLER posted “Maya Angelou once said “Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.” My I ask what God says about mans anger?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:49 am
ExCLER may I ask what God says about mans anger?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:51 am
Already gone #108 -- yes, yes I did.
Ishmael #111 -- I wasnt reading into it that you were ONLY talking to me, but read into it that I was included in “some” since I wasnt excluded specifically, and did have a somewhat negaitveand suspicious perspective on the wording of the letter. You certainly have the right to say whatever you please, but my comment about save the “get over it speech” was just meaning to say it will usually fall on deaf ears when people who have been hurt hear those words. It certainly has a dismissive connotation to it for me,as it has been used in the past to justify wrongs and pass them over as trivial, but if it wasnt intended that way, then I accept that. And if Im not included in your “some”, I accept that too, and thanks for clearing that up. Im not bitter, but did jump to the conclusion that I was included in your statement, maybe defensively so. My bad.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:53 am
James Morris,
Since you claim you have no connection to or history with SGM, I’m going to ask that you take some time to read here before continuing with the off-topic remarks. If you want to discuss SGM and GS’s message, fine. But if you want to direct your comments toward other commenters and try to point out how wrong they are, I’m thinking that’s going to be a waste of all our time.
I do find it interesting, that as a (supposed) non-SGMer, your first reaction here is to rebuke SGM’s victims. What’s going on in your thoughts? Do you typically see fit to weigh in on websites devoted to topics with which you are (supposedly) unfamiliar?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:55 am
This verse, admittedly used out of context here, illustrates the difficult position of SGM. They’ve leavened the dough with their poor handling of abuse cases. It only takes once to destroy trust, and the multiple examples brought forth on the blogs compound the problem. No matter how sincere Mr. Somerville or any other SGM leader is, trust will be extremely hard to earn back. It doesn’t happen with just one step. It takes years of making the right steps to convince people you get it and you’re serious about changing. The real question is -- Has SGM done too much damage already for people to trust them enough to let them take more than that first step?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:55 am
exclcer: I would like to see the court records. what is the case number and which court?
August 12th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
james morris 118-
i was a kid and didnt know any better, which started a pattern of thinking that lasted well into my adult years.
who would you take to task first, a rich connected politician ruing the lives of the poor in his district, or the poor responding angrily to that politician? your focus on the wrong priority smacks of a vested interest in the continued status quo.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
James Morris-- Maybe your late to the conversation, but I dont in the least care what your god says about mans anger. I dont believe in god. And if Im wrong about that, and there is one, albeit one who would sit by and allow suffering (genocide, illness, abuse, etc) to happen to his people, whilst at the same time answering prayers for patience in a traffic jam, or “grace and understanding” to someone from the cushiness of ones single family home or pulpit of power, then F him. Dont ask ME what god says about it…barking up the wrong tree. My experience with CLC wasnt the only thing to bring me to this understanding, but it sure did serve to reinforce it in so many ways. And if in your opinion that makes me not “worthy” of validation, of the wrongs that were done in your gods name, by the men who claimed to be so following of that same god, then you only further reinforce my understanding.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
@ concerned: These are public records, so I assume it is okay to share here.
State of Maryland, Montgomery County, Circuit Court # 49266
The criminal case was settled fairly quickly. The custody was what went on for many years. Those records, being in Juvenile Court are sealed. While I do have most of those records in my possession to share with specifically involved people when, or if, the need arises, I do not feel comfortable sharing those on any public forum.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
concerned -- case # 49266c , public record at Maryland Judiciary Case Search. Circuit Court of Montgomery County. Thats the initial filing.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
James,
Do the right thing and SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE, and do some reading on this blog and sgmrefuge blog BEFORE you weigh in on anything! Good grief!
Kris is far nicer than I am…I would have deleted you out of hand. Sheeeeesh.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
exCLCer: You have a lack of understanding and I truly hope I have not contributed to that.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:15 pm
Already: You are acting like a SGM pastor.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
hey there mom, we were posting it at the same time. Yes I agree, do not post any of your paper records on here. Although they offer so much evidence to the truth of our story, we do not have an obligation to prove anything. The public records tell it pretty clearly.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
@four 1/2 pt calvinist,
Hi there! Thanks for attempting to help my parents with their parenting. You must be speaking of the older of my two sisters, Melanie. You’re right about the noose tightening on her… and boy did she feel it. Anyway, she is doing wonderfully now, having made her escape from CLC, and recovered in her own way/time. She now has a great relationship with my mother, who you’ll see comment here from time to time.
It’s good to hear from you in cyberspace. I get the inability to describe what occurred to you. It’s taken me years of study and analysis to be able to speak about what I witnessed and observed over my 20 years at CLC.
@Ishmael,
It’s part of who I am: I speak up when I feel others are being mistreated. So you didn’t name me, I felt like responding as if you did. Did that violate some unwritten rule of communication? I didn’t take it to mean that you were speaking of me, therefore this is inaccurate: “The fact that you took that to mean you” and not a fact. I speak up when I can, when I feel the strength to do so.
Personally, I don’t like when other people are dismissed for being “bitter” or “angry” or “unbeliever” or whatever label you want to give them. I think people should be heard and listened to. Disagree if you must, but this is how conversation works. It just gets to me when people are dismissed for supposedly being “bitter” or “angry” or “unbeliever” or whatever…
I was not questioning what you have said. I was responding to it. That said, thanks for your understanding of my situation and expressing your sentiments here. If I disagree with them and I feel up to responding I will do so. I welcome anyone to question me or my thoughts: let’s discuss.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
To everyone who thinks Greg’s open letter is sincere. Read it again and again and again, line by line. I see nothing more than a narcissistic ATTEMPT at an apology. Do NOT trust a private meeting or phone call with him. You will just keep playing into their hands. Enablers and co-dependants cannot see it until they challenge the narcissists themselves and get burned by them themselves. But I think deep down they know that but they are unwilling to test and feel the seering rejection and damage for themselves.
Every family who has a narcissist knows what I am talking about. The narcissist’s supply really just wants the ‘better’ people to be ‘bigger’ than the narcissist so they can just live out a pseudo utopia.
I ask you, where do you see in Greg’s letter that he actually feels ANY grief FOR the survivors. His letter is canned. It’s like there is some Narcissist school one can go to to learn how to do this. I am just glad I have not actually met or talked with him yet myself to get influenced by his niceness. Daughter fell into the trap of a phone call with him because he wouldn’t answer her question by email. When I showed her that his answer was in contradiction to all I was reading in SGM church discipline and in contradiction to actual videos preached she just kept saying how nice and sincere he sounded. The best I could offer her was that maybe just maybe he didn’t agree with SGM and he had to keep his answer on the down low so as not to get in trouble.
But since it was a phone call and not written it is again a he said/ she said.
Kerrin, thank you for saying who that principle was. I had assumed that since Greg was so nice that you before were referring to a principle before 2001. But I did hear (second hand) that corporal punishment could be severe there. Not sure if the student who told me that received hacks or just witnessed.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
@James Morris (#118); I can understand how you ask that question. Many people wonder why an abused woman stays with her abuser, or why a kidnapped child who may have an opportunity to escape will stay with their kidnapper, or why parents fed their children poisonous kool-aid (Jim Jones cult)…some of the very same things apply here. People who have been “trained” to NOT hear God for themselves, to NOT trust their own judgment anymore. To almost be “afraid” to be “out in the world”. They are afraid of the isolation as well. When I first joined “Gathering of Believers, it seemed to be a much different Church. Once the building came into “vision” everything changed, but nothing short of the abuse of my daughter would have caused me to leave that church, even when I did argue with them and confront them often on issues. Even then, I remained, until my children were no longer in the school. How afraid I was to send my children to teachers whom I didn’t even know! It took me years to adjust to the Public School system. It is hard to explain to someone who has not “been there”. I hope this helps you understand a little.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
James, now you’re just being mean!
August 12th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
James,
Before you do any more damage, why don’t you grab a Starbucks and start reading some of the stories here.
I’ve been reading here all morning and can certainly understand the range of emotions and my prayers remain with the families of SGMnot and eCLCer. But speaking on behalf of a family that has been Shanked, Mullerized, hung on the Gallo’s, Hindered, Mahaney-ized, Maresco-ized, Brittized, and run out of of town on a James 4 rail by a “biblical” mediator -- for what it’s worth, I think Greg is to be commended for reaching out and making the effort, it’s way more than any of the others have done.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
People have a perfect right to disagree on this, but I don’t understand what there is to trust here. To me, the words of people who protect perpetrators are exceedingly cheap. I suspect that every SGM pastor has been aware of these problems for a very long time. Given that high probability, these sudden “out-of-the-blue publicized apologies” seem off to me.
Speaking of both Brent and Greg, I think it’s interesting how these former and current SGM pastors are now utilizing these blogs as a mouthpiece. Just a thought. It makes for exciting print, but to me it sidesteps more challenging actions needing to be taken by these men.
Kris, I’m not in any way implying that you should not post what the Big Dogs say. I think we all are grateful for what you and Guy are doing here. The work you’ve accomplished through this blog is phenomenal. I am not taking issue with how you run this blog.
My gut just tells me something about the way these Big Dogs are using the blogs to make their points is a bit questionable on their part.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Patti,
“When I showed her that his answer was in contradiction to all I was reading in SGM church discipline…she just kept saying how nice and sincere he sounded.”
As in?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZY8jUuEzJQ
August 12th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
Quote by Kris,
“Because of your harsh responses to victims, responses that flow out of SGM’s false and cultic shepherding ideas about pastoral authority and the pastor’s role as being primarily one of confronting and “rooting out” sin in members’ lives, there are people out there (SGM’s victims) who have equated your wrong practices with the gospel…and have then gone on to condemn the gospel of Jesus.”
That is the most grievous part of this whole thing. :(
August 12th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
“From Gospel to Grace” said,
That’s why I think that SGM’s expressed concerns over people’s anonymity (which supposedly is because they want to know how to get in touch with those whom they’ve hurt) -- as well as the notion that SGM’s problems can be solved if they make honest attempts to “reconcile” with the people whom they’ve hurt -- do NOT really demonstrate that anyone at SGM has a good handle on where they should be directing most of their efforts.
Yes, as I’ve said, private apologies and sincere attempts at righting past personal wrongs with victims are important. Every victim of SGM’s authoritarian ways and un-Christlike harshness should get an apology and should be approached for reconciliation. I’m not trying to minimize that.
BUT, if SGM directs its energies toward private reconciliation and yet fails to address the ROOT CAUSES of the original situations, they are not really doing anything to fix the problems and they are not really doing anything to make life better for present-day SGMers.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
For Remnant #90 -- I have been a student of eschatology since I first read The late Great Planet Earth in 1975. I wake up everyday surprised we are still here. I know very well the context of those 2 scriptures are for the millenial kingdom. (At risk of another issue with 5yearsinPDI)one of my problems with Augustine is he was the first major teacher to allegorize prophecy. He looked at scripture and saw all these unconditional prophecies for Israel but there was no Israel. So he began to teach the church was the new Israel. Now we have a nation called Israel for the first time since 722BC. Once you begin to interpret prophecy literally it opens before your eyes that we are the the generation that will see His return.
Matthew 24:32-34 says learn the parable of the fig tree. (fig tree is symbolic of Israel) vs 34 “this generation shall not pass” Matthew 25:31-34 at the second coming Jesus separates the sheep gentiles from the goat gentiles. But most people don’t know that in Ezekiel 20:32-42 God says He will enter into judgment with Israel “face to face” (vs. 35). So only believing Jews and believing gentiles go into the kingdom. The church will have had 2 judgments before then, the rapture before the tribulation and the Bema seat of judgment during the tribulation in heaven before the marraige supper of the Lamb.
I’m not stupid enough to set a date, but we are commanded to recognize the general time in Matt 24:33. We are in that general time. :clap :clap I wake up everyday surprised we are still here.
I don’t want to hijack the thread either so if you want to discuss this more bounce me an email at yahoo. I can give you pages and pages of “proofs”.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
@exCLCer and mom,
Thank you for your comments. I agree and understand. I hope somehow and in some way you are compensated for what you have lost.
@Kerrin No violation of an unwritten rule of communication. Just as long as you respect the fact that you’re not the only one who says what he thinks. And if you say something to me I’m saying it back. Personally, I don’t care if you like how people are being labeled. You do it too. Why I should I care what gets to you if you don’t care what gets to me? I’m sorry that you have been offended but not so sorry that you can just say to me whatever you “feel up to” in your responses. Being one that has also gone through some things I respect that you have too. All that being said Touche’!
August 12th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
Kris, could you list the root causes of the original situations? You may have done so elsewhere, but this might be a good time for a refresher or at least, point people to where it’s listed.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
@Patti,
Yes, he was the principle from 2001-2007. But he was brought on to oversee the development of the high school in 1995. Corporal punishment from all the accounts I’ve been aware of did seem severe at that school, although I was fortunate enough to never attend it. Or perhaps misfortunate for not attending: I’m sure if I did I would have gotten out of CLC around the age my other siblings did (around 18) having been subjected to that school. If I got out earlier I would probably have a lot less baggage.
These guys can turn on the “nice” when it suits their purposes. I find it more disingenuous than anything else (i.e., love bombing).
August 12th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Prov. 14: 10 ” Each heart knows its own bitterness, an NO one else can share its joy.”
I am thankful for the hymn SGM churches adapted: “No tongue can bid me to depart!” On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand!” Even SGM! All of us stand before God, laid bare, and HE declares us righteous! Through Jesus, our Great I AM. and intercessor!!! Still Preaching the Gospel to myself, after 10 yrs. away, “Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the Bible tells me so!!!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
[deleted at author's request]
August 12th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
The dynamics of the responses to Greg’s letter are very interesting. There are those who are so desperate to see SG pastors/leaders acknowledge their sinful leadership, they will accept any form of repentance, remorse or confession. This is dangerous because if it isn’t genuine, honest and transparent it will not bear the fruit in keeping with their repentance. This isn’t about just feeling good but bearing fruit (fruit that remains).
The other side of the spectrum is those who wouldn’t trust any of these guys regardless of what they say or do because SGM has tainted everything with their spin. So to not believe everything they say will be not be severely scrutinized would be unreal to think otherwise. The SGM culture and spin for decades has been about deflecting sin and weakness from the pastor to the victim. SGM has spent 30 years in a CYA position so they should not be trusted.
So how do we move forward to a healthy discourse while preserving the unity of the Spirit in a bond of peace? Obviously, the challenge that SG pastors have before them is not an easy one. How do they communicate a change in heart and understanding if they continue to use the same language and the same delivery? I personally don’t believe it is possible to move very far forward if the SG pastors cannot change the way they communicate. It is not impossible but it is difficult to change a thirty year culture that doesn’t lend itself to reconciliation and restoration; and a government structure that is adversarial to any challenges or corrections.
If we are to inject the glory of the Lord into this season of change, it will take patience, compassion, graciousness, slow to anger, loving kindness and gentleness, faithfulness and forgiveness. It is not only possible but very much a reality as the glory of God lives in us, the Lord of glory. “It is no longer I who live but Christ in me”.
It is my hope and prayer for Josh, Greg and other SG pastors is to make your focus on the victims and the Lord and not about yourselves (self protection, self justification, false humility, etc). As much as these are deeply emotional things, I don’t believe people will be won over by tears and how bad YOU feel, but how you take personal responsibility; to not use words that deflect but are open and honest in which you own your actions, behavior and words. It is not a time to figure out percentages of responsibility.
I would also encourage you to get someone on the outside SGM (and not another group like SGM) to help you with how you communicate your hearts, your remorse and your confessions. I am not trying to beat anyone up but the SGM culture is naturally protective of leaders and the victimizers, Leaders will need to learn how to communicate differently and honestly.
I am personally very encouraged with what I am seeing and hearing from CLC but it is not without a certain amount of skepticism. For me it is not what someone says but what do they do!! We live in a society and culture where talk is cheap and no matter how cheap it is I’m not spending.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
Kerrin,
“These guys can turn on the “nice” when it suits their purposes. I find it more disingenuous than anything else (i.e., love bombing).”
Yes, yes. This makes it much harder to discern, but you can easily see it in the verbiage between Detweiler and C.J. in the documents. Both of them are so nicey-nice while being up to something.
Can someone give me one good reason to trust these people?