Kris says: Yesterday, I received the following from Covenant Life Church pastor GS, with a request that I post it…
Dear exCLCer and SGMnot,
This past week I read the stories that you posted on SGMSurvivors. The details are heartbreaking for me, the pastors of Covenant Life, and the members of our church. I cannot imagine the anguish these events have caused for you and your families. I am doubly grieved to know how deeply disappointed you are with the pastoral care you received during that crisis and in the years following.
In my 14 years of pastoral ministry at Covenant Life Church, I have so often failed to love and care for God’s people the way I should. If it weren’t for the grace of our Lord Jesus and the forgiveness of the saints, this pastor would not have the faith to keep caring for God’s precious church. Stories like yours cause me to cry out for more of God’s Spirit, more of God’s heart. I do
not want to fail his children in their time of deepest need!
I realize you don’t have much confidence in the pastors of Covenant Life Church right now, and I can understand that. But would you be willing to talk with me about your experience? Though I am sure it would be painful to review the details, I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future. And if
nothing else, I hope I could express the grief we feel for the suffering you have endured.
Kris has my e-mail address — please let her know if you are willing for me to contact you about this. In the meantime I will be praying for you and your family.
On behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,
GS
(Family Life Pastor)
August 12th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Irv….bingo
August 12th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Irv: I love your whole post! Well said! :clap :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
If Greg’s letter represents an honest attempt to starting changing CLC’s ways and going in a new and better direction, that’s wonderful. A lot of people have commented that the recent CLC members meetings addressing various problems and the letters from Josh certainly have been a welcome change, so that fits with Greg’s letter. But, as others have pointed out much better than I can, the core issues within the church stem from the underlying SGM doctrine that has led to all kinds of problems for a lot of people in a lot of different areas. It’s bad from the roots up. It seems to me that CLC can’t really profoundly change unless that underlying doctrine changes. If SGM doesn’t agree that it needs to change a lot of core values, than CLC would have to break from SGM and basically start over if it has any hope of real change. My question though, is can the current group of CLC pastors, who are firmly rooted in SGM doctrine and have been supporting it all these years, really effect that change? When a company in the real world is acquired, most of the time the upper management of the acquired company has to be let go. Not because they’re necessarily bad managers, but because they usually have a hard time embracing the new company’s ways of doing things. I realize of course that with God all things are possible, but I hope the CLC pastors recognize how difficult this will be and how much really needs to change.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
@James -- I don’t know what your agenda is. But it is unhelpful and very un-Christ-like. Take some time to get to know people before going after them here. You should have known exCLCer is not a believer and statements like yours would do nothing less than to push her further away from our Savior.
re: Greg’s history. We had a meeting a few months ago about the past wrongs (sins/mistakes/?) of CLS and they were seeking out forgiveness and condemning of their own old policies. A lot of people were hurt at CLS evidently but the pastors and new principal are making many necessary changes.
I hope folks can see a pattern here. God has gotten the attention of the pastors at CLC. They are making changes. I think this an important point -- if it was all a facade and spin, I don’t think Mike and Brian would have walked out. Give them a chance. God is able to do mighty works.
I do hope and pray that whatever mistakes/weaknesses/sin patterns that come to light at CLC extend downstairs and then out to SGM.
@ Kerrin -- you mentioned the anonymity of ‘the supporters’ — I am only anonymous because I want it to be crystal clear that my words here do NOT represent my church (no I am not on staff). I have already had to repent of sins against others during my limited time here. I do know who you are by the way, but I don’t know you well but I am grieved by what has happened to your family. I pray there is SOME redemption in your collective lives.
@ exCLCer -- I hope you know the experience of God that you have had is not that of the true God. I have walked through significant trials myself but can only say that without there being a God it would have all made no sense and I would be a completely devastated basket case. I pray one day you may encounter the true love of Jesus, not what was represented by the lack of love of men that you experienced. Hope I didn’t offend, and I definitely don’t want to be preachy, but it would be so easy to dismiss God in what you’ve shared that you’ve walked through.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
I am in agreement with you regarding your view of eschatology except, perhaps, for timing. There are no unfulfilled prophecies which must occur before the Rapture yet the timing of that event remains to be seen. I agree that the times are getting more wicked however, these are MERELY the beginning of the signs (Mark 13:8 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.)
My moniker “Remnant” is due to the fact that I am of the believing Remnant of Israel via the blood of the Messiah. I spent a good part of the morning hoping and praying you were not of the British Israelism ilk :spin and am quite relieved to put this concern to rest because I was soooo not wanting to “take this outside” er….off loop. Blessings!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Oy. I do not think so highly of myself that I think my posts deserve to be in bold. Shaking head. Don’t know what happened. Probably a mis-spoken > sign. Sorry Kris.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Double oy. My number 155 is for Breezey.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Irv, thank you for that excellent comment!
The mental image I’ve had in my head all morning is Lucy with the football, promising Charlie Brown that this time will be different!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Wow, aren’t we all over the map about Greg’s sincerity here.
Ex -- I don’t know where you live, but I just want you to know that it would be way to much for me to step foot back inside that building, and you add all that you have been through to that I can’t see you doing that. I am just saying, if it does come to meeting with him/them you have every reason in the world for it to be somewhere besides CLC. I also agree with what someone posted many posts ago…be careful how many of “them” are present. You sound like you are way ahead of me on this, even being unwilling to deal with their SGM speak etc…but I just had to say.
As for the notorious Mr Somerville. I’m gonna give my two cents. I personally believe he is being as sincere as he possibly can given the mysterious blindness to their own error that comes with being a pastor and even happy member of SGM.
I think sometimes some of the pastors, perhaps like Joshua these recent days, aren’t deliberate about their “spin”, I just think they don’t know how else to function, they have been so indoctrinated…some would say brainwashed.
That is why this blog is soooooo critically important. The nuances of the SGM spin are wide and deep. That is why having all you “survivors” here skillfully articulate the errors for us, is an instrumental part of the “healing”/normalizing process.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Let My People Go,
I just have to tell you how much I like your name. I actually have that on my list of favorite quotes. ( Let my people go! -- God)
August 12th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
okay blogosphere, I’m signing off for now, from discussing one organization that needs some serious improvement, and headed down to Landover to see about another org. that also could desperately use some real improvement….(maybe one we can all agree on)… my poor dear Redskins! lol. Lets go Skins!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
helpful reminder taken from the conclusion of a Tim Keller and David Powlison article (especially the third bullet):
————
In summary, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the principle is this. If you hear bad reports about other Christians you must either cover it with love or go to them personally before speaking of it to any others.
• The first thing to do is to simply suspend judgment. Don’t pass on bad reports.
• The second thing to do is “cover” it in love, reminding yourself that you don’t know all about the heart of the person who may have done evil—and you know your own frailty. Don’t allow bad reports to pass into your own heart.
• The final thing to do is go and speak to them personally.
What you should never do is rush to judgment, or withdraw from loving another, or pass on the negative report to others. This is challenge enough when you’re dealing with the local grapevine or slow-moving postal service. In a world of instant worldwide communication of information it’s an even bigger challenge, because you can do bigger damage more quickly. Whether the bad report offers true information, or partial information, or disinformation, or false information—it is even more important that you exercise great discretion, and that you take pains to maximize boots-on-the-ground interpersonal relationships.
————--
It seems to me there is an inherent danger of the above in this particular forum. We better watch out.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Patricia,
Thank you for that link, ya, no words can tell what I’ve been thinking better than that!
August 12th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Kris and Guy,
Thanks for being willing to post Greg’s note here, and thanks for being open to hear what he is saying in the note. You’ve mentioned that the note is a huge and historic step, but I think your response -- along with Jim’s and some other folks -- is also huge. I used to think this blog was just negative and over-reactive, but not anymore.
Although I can’t say I agree with everything you’ve done and said on this blog, I do see now that you are not just out to “get” SGM. After my blundering, offensive comment on a previous post, you and others were very kind and forgiving, which gave me much pause for thought.
Someone -- I suspect it was an SGM insider who monitors this blog (just a guess) -- followed me back to my own website and, since I don’t publish my direct email, this person left a comment on an old post confronting me about my bad attitude. When I woke up at 2AM and saw the comment on my phone, it was like being electrically shocked, and I felt awful for the rest of the night (good conviction of the Holy Spirit!).
All this just to say that I think there are some on this blog who really want to see God’s glory magnified through all of this, and at least some in SGM leadership who are truly repenting for the wrongs of the past, looking for ways to re-structure and re-focus the organization, and trying to move forward in a healthier way. And, if I might be so bold, I would caution all of us against assuming who is and isn’t in that category. I am learning a thing or two about assuming.
I hope this doesn’t sound like a lecture, I’m just observing and commenting on the good things I’m seeing on both sides. And trying to encourage more of it.
Blessings,
Derek Ashton
August 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
James Morris,
Just because you *have* a male appendage does not give you an excuse to *be* a male appendage.
Please learn how to play nice and if you are going to be a nasty, don’t pick on anyone here that has had a family member molested and then experienced injustice at the hands of SGM. I’m just saying I will not retract my claws if that sort of attack the victim continues.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
exCLCer. You just made my day saying you are Skins Fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And yes we need some work…
August 12th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Theo…
All is well. As in all things there are going to be differing opinions. All are welcome until they reach the point of just plain “mean”. I hope for the day when we can “turn this blog off” (i have a big red switch in the office). Until then, there are going to be times when some of us will agree to disagree. All are welcome here…
August 12th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
James Morris asked: “To be honest I can see very little biblical backup for most of the posts being made on this sight. Don’t you people have anything better to do?”
No, actually, God has freed up my calendar. Do I have other things that I would RATHER do than trying to slap the koolaid glass out of my daughter’s hand from over 2000 miles away? You Betcha! And for the record, I have NOTHING against her BF or his family. I am NOT trying to separate them. In fact I can see along with many other bloggers here who have commented that the faithful attenders among the SGM family are good. I have NOTHING negative in my mind about them except for SGM controlling so much of their lives. There is NOTHING unbiblical about what I am doing, unless you count my housework duties sliding because of the time spent here reading each and every comment. I am so grateful for all the comments that I do not need to write because there are so many very smart Holy Spirit led educated commentators here. Some have ‘checked’ me before I wrote something I should not have, I am grateful for those too. Hmm, ‘hope I’m not starting to sound sgmese there, oh well, like my pastor warned me while back, I shouldn’t ‘bristle’ every time I hear a benign word that triggers a bad memory.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:19 pm
James, you awakened some mama bears when you went after one of the victims of sexual abuse. We feel pretty darn protective of them all. Badly done.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
TheOperadox, glad you feel encouraged and hopeful. I too am confident that if God is working in the lives of the men leading SGM, then positive change can and will happen. But to trust this is the case without seeing any meaningful actions backing up their words is not wise in my opinion. The history is in itself quite D**ning.
As they say, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”
SGM is a business. Money and power are at stake. I’m glad you see that this blog is not reactive, but realistic.
The good news is that God’s church is alive and well. Anyone deciding to leave the SGM machine can be led by God to find a body of believers with accountability in place. They can bring their friends along too.
Personally, I find the heartfelt sharing people do here to be refreshing.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
My apologies to all here who I wholeheartedly support but as I started reading through the responses to GS’s open letter I had to stop at about # 10. I am an an SGM survivor. I use my name in my posts not to disparage anyone who does not but I simply have nothing to fear from SGM or CLC pastors (I realize others here do have fear of retribution for themselves and others and it is a legitimate concern-- not that you need me to affirm that. I am just stating my personal perspective). GS has taken a step. That’s all. He is making an attempt at healing and reconciliation. Everyone here has the right, no make that the responsibility to remain skeptical. I would like to make a few points:
1. I seriously doubt any of the leaders at CLC no how to get in contact with exCLCer directly. I do not know if that is true, I simply express my doubt. Plus, making the initial contact here assures some public accountability and acts as a safety net especially for exCLCer and SFMnot.
2. Setting skepticism aside for a moment, Greg’s letter is a monumental step — it is also a step that should have been taken long ago or a step that should have actually never been necessary to take.
3. While attending the first CLC members only meeting (with permission from CLC leadership -- my own personal belief that crashing the party would have been disingenuous) a member of CLC publicly stated he did not trust CLC leadership any longer. The response from the stage, ” you should not, we do not deserve your trust and we know we have to earn it back. At the time I judged/discerned this to be both the right response and sincere — meaning ok, let’s see what they will do. As a former president said, “trust, but verify.”
4. So the question is, does this communication from a CLC pastor represent a genuine, heart felt attempt at healing, righting wrongs, repentance, etc? Honestly, we don’t know. And I don’t know, and wouldn’t offer my opinion to exCLCer and SGMnot about whether or not to respond with anything other than a flat out refusal. Only, they can decide and I personally think that whatever their response is, it would be the right one. In other words, with these awful sins that the two stories reveal, the wounds, betrayals, and damages caused by the actions and inactions of the CLC pastors involved will not heal this side of glory without a genuine miracle. Trust will never be and should never be extended again to the men involved. That would be one price they have to pay for their actions. Their sins are so egregious, IMHO they are disqualifying — whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me Matt. 25:40-45.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Kerrin earlier made a statement about the spiritual abuse at CLS…
While I think there are countless cases of graceless discipline consequences at CLS, I would like to paint another picture of CLS…a history teacher coming into the classroom dressed as a historical figure giving an entertaining and educating glimpse into the past (that occurred often), a senior class english teacher who is very comfortable with calling out and active discussion amongst the class, who has been said to be one of the best literature teachers ever, a calculus teacher who knew the stuff frontwards and back producing kids with high ap test results, a delightful medieval feast by a very conscientous fifth grade teacher, many years a go there were some behind the scenes efforts to get the chapel messages off sin sniffing and onto the nature of our loving God, their science lab is also quite above what most christian schools can afford (ok we can probably go off on where the money came from), I know you all are getting bored, but an excellent education did take place for many in spite of an evolving discipline structure.
That said, NO spiritual abuses(usually in the form of graceless discipline) that occurred are in anyway acceptable or justified in anyway! What some students are having to process in their lives now because of those abuses is a sad sad thing.
Yes, the teachers are sgm’ers, they eat drink, sleep, and speak sgm, but often they are so consumed with their subject matter that they don’t have time in the classroom for any other speak. I think it is a much healthier practice in general to separate church and school for the growing child and no child or grandchild of mine will ever go there!
August 12th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
Irv: Nice post.
Let me look at this in another way. (Please forgive the parallel, but I think it may be helpful.)
SGM and its system have been the victimizers, the perps if you please, for decades. And to all of a sudden expect the victims of this system to turn on a dime and express immediate forgiveness might be a bit much.
They’ve been the victims of those that should have cared for them most. The system and its leaders violated their trust, shattered their lives and reputations and cast them aside like unwed mothers.
Greg, are these tears of repentance? Why should you and your coworkers be trusted now after seeing such a long standing horrific track record? Unfortunately, only time will tell if it’s genuine or more spin. Expect the jury to be out for a long time.
Might I suggest, Greg, after your public extension of good will, that you seek these folks out. Don’t make them have to come to SGM (again). The stories are here, you know who they are – they are not hiding.
Some thoughts: Meet with them. And not at your CLC/SGM offices. Bring an attorney that represents the victim and pay for it. Bring a recording device at your expense and give it to the victim before you say anything.
Resist the urge to defend. Resist the urge to excuse. Resist the urge to “bring clarification”. Bring only compassion and help for the hurting. The pain can be as raw today as it was 20 years ago. Bring true repentance and grief for those that have been wounded and left by the side of the road by this authoritarian system.
Go back and purpose in your heart to change the system from within at all costs. And straighten out Bob K re: his SIL.
May we all live to see that “big red switch” thrown.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Given that an outsider leaped “with both boots” into the discussion, Mr. Morris, let me register the following. Given TheoPrax’s post as well, I am prompted to give another perspective.
I too am an outsider. Yet, this scribe has spent hours and hours reading, re-reading, and digesting the reports. It’s fair to say 1000s of posts. Being retired and older, there is time for it. Being interested in of law, criminal justice, theology, church history, psychology, and sociology, there is warrant for serious interdisciplinay studies here…analysis. Academics, and I am one, aren’t driven off because an elite saying, “Don’t study me or my movement.” We want facts. From my observations, that has been attempted here.
The quest to privatize this doesn’t pass the smell test. If an organization wants to have blogs, conferences, write their own music, open a Pastors College, write books, create 75-100 churches, and position themselves as “the place to be,”--again, on a national level--they invite scrutinty. Waving off scrutiny when inconvenient while pressing forward on a national level is inconsistent.
This forum, in my view, occasionally gets off track. Occasionally, there are miscomms now and then. But, more often than not, there is an effort to get at the facts.
There is/has been anguish, hurt, broken confidences, abuses, autocracy, self-excusations, and more that has informed this forum. There are themes here. The reports have “been on the streets” for a long time without inquiry by SGM or CLC. What would have happened without the Detwiler documents?
Let any and all outsiders read widely before commenting.
As to Mr. Somerville, the jury is out for this scribe. But, in context, utter caution. There’s a ring of authenticity in his note, but there are wider problems with it also. Love dislikes believing anything untrue or false. Love, on the other hand, rejoices in facts, established factual patterns and fair inferences.
I think Kris’s earlier observations are wise, namely, the systemic and deeper roots that led to these problems.
Thanks to all who continue to make an honest effort at factual inquiry and honest discussion.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
I don’t want to try to influence anyone one way or the other in regards to meeting with the pastors. There has been a lot of good advice already given here. I would like to say a little something about Greg. Over ten years ago I was one of the kids in the police state environment that Kerrin talked about. Conformity was seen as a fruit of Godliness. I had so many uncomfortable meetings with Greg. I was a “negative influence of the student body.” I think when I was 16 or 17 I was “the biggest thing holding this school back from Godliness.” There were lots of corrections for not raising my hands in chapel or not smiling enough. I liked girls. My sister was pre- judged because she was sister. You all know the drill. . .This resulted in my being “asked not to come back” after 11th grade. Most of my friends were later expelled for smoking pot. My best friends was expelled before me for going to a concert, but that is a longer story. My mom has maybe set foot in CLC once since all this happened. There is a lot more to my story and I would be glad to share it with anyone who wants to know. I am probably still pretty bitter on some levels. I probably know some of you. That all being said, I think that Greg is someone who has personally repented. He apologized to me. I know he has gone to some of my friends to talk/apologize. He wrote a letter apologizing to my mom and I believe he said something like “I would understand if you never wanted to speak to me again” That was a big deal in my world because she was very bitter about my experience. (she also got invited to the things at Josh’s house). I am only speaking of Greg personally here. I can’t say if this is true of the whole institution. Like Kerrin says they have a lot to lose, but I do think things could be trending in a good way. I would like to see more public acknowledgement as well. This was all stream of consciousness so sorry for any typos or incoherence. It is good to see the blogs producing fruit. Ripples are turning into tidal waves I hope.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
In light of all the questioning regarding Greg’s letter (which I certainly understand), one of the things that gives me hope are the several mentions of changes being discussed and perhaps slowly (I mean really slowly) made for the past few years now. Even from Mike’s letter (or was it Brian’s?), it sounds like CLC has been moving away from some common SGM thinking.
[Speculation warning...]
I could possibly see a mix of feelings from CLC pastors working behind the scenes to keep unity amongst themselves and with SGM -- disagreements behind closed doors, perhaps, while standing together publicly, slowly try to convince people and build unity. Then -- kapow! -- CLC pastors realizing it’s no longer possible to go with that approach, the time is now to begin making big changes. Some who were unconvinced become convinced, and a few that remain unconvinced leave. No that they’re gone, CLC pastors begin moving forward with plans to leave the 99 and find the 1 lost sheep.
If that’s the case, I hope they’ll serve as a strong example to other SGM churches. It’s my understanding that CLC pastors are not regular members of a CG. If that’s correct, wouldn’t it be meaningful for them to join one -- not to lead it in any way, but to sit beside those in their congregation regularly and learn from them?
August 12th, 2011 at 3:20 pm
Not to change the subject, but a few may want to check out a humorous article over at Wartburg Watch titled “Sovereign Grace Ministries: A Christian Version of Animal Farm?”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/11/sovereign-grace-ministries-a-christian-version-of-animal-farm/
August 12th, 2011 at 3:22 pm
“To everyone who thinks Greg’s open letter is sincere. Read it again and again and again, line by line. I see nothing more than a narcissistic ATTEMPT at an apology. Do NOT trust a private meeting or phone call with him. You will just keep playing into their hands”
Patti, You are a smart cookie.
If I were an CLC board member or elder, this is exactly the strategy I would have used a few years back.
Goal: Save the organization. The blog stories are getting out and money is going to start drying up soon. Damage control strategy
Trot out a pastor who was not actively involved in the “criminal activity”. Yes, it is criminal to protect a predator. Yes, what they did to exclc’er’s mom is nothing short of criminal. It was unethical and immoral how she was treated. By a “church”.
Try to keep the focus off the details because not only did they protect a predator but insisted the molester be able to be “head” of the family so they decided it was best to get some of the kids out, that the pervert was attracted to, so he can be the “head” God wants him to be. (if you are not angry with that James, something is wrong with you. Or maybe it is normal where you come from. Who knows)
And help the predator with legal bills and then help the kids be farmed out to social workers all the while the mom is in poverty and the pastors call it “self induced poverty” because she does not want to due her gender role by living with a “head” predator.
Use a bunch of compassion lingo. pretend to be real sorry and post it on the blog where the survivors read. (Do not put it on the church blog because we must minimize the damage)
Now, if our victims agree to meet:
1. We can say we tried to reconcile.
2.If the victims refuse to meet (because they have no reason to trust these timely words in the letter): We can STILL say we tried to reconcile. (Nevermind the details and where are the pastors who made these criminal decisions?)
So, we win either way when it comes to spin.
Now, this needs to happen fast because we are expecting the money not to flow so great due to the scandal.
(Don’t be foolish enough folks to think they are not real concerned about money right now. They are)
And since our people are so gullible to think the Holy Spirit just happened to convict us of our criminal, unethical, immoral and unChristian behavior all those years ago….. AFTER the current scandal became public, then we can spin this as the real thing.
And, it is working for many. Anyone who would trust these guys…I have some beautiful land in Ark for sale. We call it Whitewater.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:33 pm
And how do you all know this is not part of some larger strategy being used because of a bigger fight coming with CJ over splitting CLC?
Kerrin said it best: Past behavior is an indicator of future behavior.
(All you gotta do is see how CJ took over from Larry. All this stuff trickles down. It is inbred in the system because the foundation is following man not Christ)
If admitting to some bad decisions (they play down their disgusting behavior of protecting perverts, have you noticed?) in the past means we can convince people we are sincere and have “changed”, then it is damage control.
SGM and CLC are cultish and need to cease to exist. And they will if the money dries up and they know this. The people there are in bondage to the cult of personality and the bad system.
Ok, mean Matt is going to bow out. But don’t be so gullible, people! They have had years to be convicted by the Holy Spirit…but crickets…. until now when the blogs are becoming more and more known by current members.
Trust me, they know these stories on the blogs look real bad and they have to some kind of damage control.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:51 pm
@Matt@#177-178. I am with you on the strenuous insistence of context, context, and, after that, more context. Not as a sin-sniffer, but as a “fact-sniffer” with intense deliberation and analysis. Just the facts. You are on the trail of it. There are layers of complexities here. Someone noted earlier (and wisely), if Ex’CLCer meets with Mr. Somerville, let CLC pay her attorney expenses and court stenographer expenses for the records without any non-disclosure statements. It’s a high and sure bet that attorneys are reading these blogs and advising CLC and SGM. I’d be much displeased if Ex-CLCer, once victimized, were sucked into this only to be re-victimized by a larger strategy and used for larger ends. That would be cruel, unusual, and ungodly. But, we’ve seen indications of that already--thematically. Matt, good post.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
Also, I went back and re-read the report of the preliminary panel by DeYoung, Ortlund and Trueman. It’s not very strong. Full of disclaimers and mitigations. I haven’t commented on that, to date. But, as an investigation, it’s pretty weak stuff and nothing for SGM to crow over. Perhaps an analysis is forthcoming. Again, it’s less than strong.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
To 5Years in #2 : :word :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
@ Matt: You pose some very good questions that I have wondered myself. On the other hand, there are some things going on from a different angle as well, that have not been posted on here (I think, although I am not certain, because I began to read these blogs after this “event” occurred)-ExClcer can confirm, though..Anyway, ExClcer has been writing these letters for 20 years, as she has said, with no response. Then, one day, a young man who had been just a boy, in school with my children, ran into her at a local grocery store (I will refer to him as SG). SG asks how things are, and she tells him. He was shocked, and said how he never knew what happened to us (just like many here have said). I am not certain how they continued their contact, except I knew they began exchanging emails, and this young man was very strong in his desire to speak to the pastors about what was wrongly done. ExClcer shared his emails with me, and I responded to one, having been so touched to hear someone refer to us as a widow and orphans. I wanted to let him know how important that was to me. He wrote to me as well, saying how he wanted to see the pastors go to everyone in my family personally to ask forgiveness. It was part of my response to him that I posted (#13) as part of my response to Greg. (Even though Greg did not exactly address me, I jumped in, assuming when he said ExClcer, he actually meant our entire family). So, my point is that I wonder if Greg’s response could be due to SG’s admonitions recently, and then perhaps with the shake up and some previous pastors leaving, perhaps they are actually trying to “reform”. That is why my response was that I will pray about it..Of course, being as how I am pretty sure ExClcer has previously posted that as a response to SG’s admonitions, some pastors had contacted her already, wanting to “clarify” things with her, so maybe they do not want me present at such a meeting, being as how I can come with papers of confirmation of things? And, obviously Greg is aware of the other postings in this Survivor site, so it could still be, as you have suggested, damage control.In time, Truth will come to light, and God will prevail, I am sure. In the meantime, well life still goes on, and I will not go to any meeting unless I definitely hear form God Himself, no one else! I will say, how sad it is that the men involved have to come under so much pressure before they consider and admit anything (This is NOT referring to Greg)!
August 12th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
I really wish I could hang on here for a while and digest everything that has been posted but need to leave shortly.
I just want to comment on the sexual molestation and how the difference incidences are now coming to light—for which I am truly grateful. In my mind, the sexual abuse is just the tip of the iceburg. There are SO MANY issues within the CLC/SGM framework that actually contribute to this blatant disrespect of women and children. Those are the core issues….the sexual abuse is a biproduct. I hope I’m making sense here. I pray that the root issues will be brought to light and dealt with. The issues, for example, that imply women and men are not equal heirs in the Kingdom of God…the total patriarchal mindset and emphasis that frequently manifests in sexual abuse situations.
I pray that the core issues are revealed and people get their minds right (to quote a line from “Cool Hand Luke”), as well as their hearts. There is a lot of twisted “learned behavior” going on here. Enough to keep many therapy practices in business forever.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
@Pampy: “There is a lot of twisted “learned behavior” going on here. Enough to keep many therapy practices in business forever.”
:amen
August 12th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
A word to Ex-CLCer and Ex-CLCer Mom. I offer my unsolicited suggestion. Utter caution.
1. Mr. Somerville writes in behalf of 16-18 Pastors at CLC for a meeting to hear the story/stories. I think that is commendable. He’s reaching out on behalf of CLC Pastors, not just as a single voice. He writes, “In behalf of…” A single voice for all the CLC Pastors.
2. However, there is a CLC-SGM dispute in development, as the resignation letters evince. There is a vacuum of sorts. That sucks people in. Caution, Ma’am. I say that as a retired Marine and on my word of honour.
3. There is a strategic advantage to CLC hearing your story, entering your long-held pain and anguish (with some credit and to their credit), and emerging on the other side as sensible and honourable men, willing to ask for forgivenness. A “PR” coup. Also, willing to “make a good show.” Again, caution. There may legitimacy here in the mix.
4. However, I would be extremely cautious about getting pulled into a larger and strategic game here. Of “being used.” I would utterly hate to see you “be used” for the bigger agenda. I recommend you ponder Matt’s warnings.
5. If I were considering such a meeting, I would test their honour. I would make them show fruits of repentance. “Deeds, not words.” This scribe would insist on these things:
(a) Let me pick an attorney of my own.
(b) CLC will pick up the tab for that attorney.
(c) Put stenographers in the room, at CLC’s expense. After all, Mahaney pulls down $250,000/year plus. After the resignations of two CLC Pastors, Bradshaw and Chesemore, CLC has the monies.
(d) There will be no non-disclosure statements, but the records will be available for public review. I’d bet $1000 that CLC Pastors would not allow this. They want silence. Test them and see.
I won’t address you again, directly, on the matter. You’ve had anguishes beyond description. However, you are dealing with a mega-operation with concerns of $100,000s of dollars at stake…product diminishment, sales diminishment, and discreditation SGM sees it. CLC sees it. With this, I’ll close. For the love of God, for the love of your own peace, for the love of the larger SGM culture and others watching, do not allow yourself to be revictimized. If you do allow that, that is your choice. But, I dare to speak without your solicitation. Be of good cheer whatever the decision. “His Majesty, Three-in-One, gets it…in full and without error.” Best regards too.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
These blogs effectively fired warning shots in the air over the heads of SGM leaders and this has now majorly contributed to huge exposure of SGM’s failures and dangers. The veil of deception has been pulled back dramatically and many, many people will look at SGM with a healthy skepticism for a long time.
Here is my current sadness and fear, however. Having fired the warning shots that stirred up this current season of evaluation and confrontation, the blogs are also fully capable of shooting real repentance and change in the foot. Will it really be helpful to shout “Not good enough!” to the first steps of what everyone has been begging for here for years?
I am a full skeptic and critic of SGM and SGM leadership, and my personal story with my family (if shared) would give me full credibility that I am never defensive of nor tolerant of SGM or SGM practices; but I must confess that I am saddened and confused that so many here seem as eager to punish SGM (or at least CLC) leaders when they try to do the right thing as when they clearly did the wrong thing. If you want to claim you have the right be this angry and distrustful -- I won’t argue with you -- but if you think this is the way to foster real openness, repentance, change, and restitution in the future, then I believe you are going to be sadly disappointed. Don’t give them an easy excuse to tune out your voices again.
Some of you will make me out to be the enemy because I am simply challenging all of us to be a ware of the effects of our words, but you will be wrong. You have no idea how eager I am to have the truth about all of SGM exposed (it has only scratched the surface so far).
If the loud assumption is that GS is most likely manipulative and insincere in his letter, then we shouldn’t expect many more letters or efforts in the direction of hurt people.
I am very grateful that the times that I myself have expressed repentance, sadness, and initiative to help – that I was received with joy and eagerness (even before I had time to fully re-earn their trust) by those who deserved my repentance. Don’t say that repentance isn’t genuine if circumstances put people in a corner – or few of our testimonies of how the Holy Spirit cornered our souls would still hold weight.
I realize that full trust requires proven new patterns of behavior -- I will not trust most of these SGM men for a long time, and only when it is truly earned -- but I sure hope that the times I might need to write a letter like Greg has written – it is received with warmth and appreciation.
I am with JIm and Guy – this is a historic and admirable moment (that, yes, it requires a ton of active and sincere follow-through). Even if we are doubtful, the changes will not come if those trying to begin changing are greeted with responses that sound like a series of “Ya, right! Like you really mean that.” Maybe they don’t mean it. We’ll see. But if they do -- the beginning would have to look just like this.
I repeat, if you knew my own story, you would not dare tell me that I only am saying this because I have not been sufficiently slandered, manipulated, pummeled, and repeatedly damaged by SGM and its leaders.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Christian beware:
Dialoguing with a cult is not wise.
‘Nuff said. Good posts, Matt.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
@ Donald Philip Veitch; Thank you, for your very sound advice. I agree, that if it is true remorse to be expressed, your suggestions should not be a problem for the pastors there. I could possibly even get my lawyer from back in that day, as I still call her once in a while. Even then, though, all I really want to know is, as Pampy says (#183) that “core issues” are dealt with, and changes are made that promotes honesty and support of victims. I also wonder why they would not be resolving their in house issues before they reach out to us, so they could reach out to us in a more solid way. I dont know-just thought. I am not quick to any action on this matter-it has been 20 years so far, I do not in any way feel pressured to jump and make any decision in a day/week/even month! I will wait on God for this one, because I CAN!
August 12th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
@Adullam’s Cave and @Matt:
Ergo, the great wisdom evinced in both posts. The poles or opposites are expressed. Indeed, there must be room for repentance, structural reforms and an outreach. Jim has noted the historicity of the moment. Yet, Matt, has indicated wisdom also in his warnings.
I think the time is at hand for a recorded and transcribed record to be had. If repentance is real, genuine and for the sake of all, let that be recorded for the public…especially since SGM has sought so earnestly for a national forum and voice. Let CLC lead by having the records made open, not hidden.
If the CLC Pastors approved that, they would win the day. Honesty and openness would be affirmed. The CLC Pastors could ruminate on the written records, not something “spirited away” into “he said/she said” debates. They could put some of these stories to rest. Let them be tested.
If I were in command, I’d say, “Let it be recorded” and my decisions will be based on the written record of memory. I’d say, “Honesty, openness, and integrity” will be the basis for future decisions.
Adullam and Matt, I embrace both perspectives in earnest.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
CJ’s latest blog post:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/2011/08/12/A-Personal-Update.aspx
August 12th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
I attended CLC for years. I’ve had enough experience and first hand interaction with GS to know his qualifications as a pastor and intermediary. He is the LAST person on the planet I would enlist to go any where near these issues. He’s not qualified to hold the position he holds now and the fact this isn’t obvious to CLC pastors is both stunning and not surprising. Almost all of them are in over their heads. They don’t have the education or sound biblical perpspective to provide real help. I’m sure they feel sincere and qualified, but many who know them well would say otherwise.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
@Ex-CLCers Mom:
I wasn’t going to address you or your daughter directly, but you responded directly. So I must, given your response.
“Ma’am,” am an old horse Marine and retired officer. When I say, “Ma’am,” it is respect. It means you are my senior. I am a retired Colonel, so you get the sense. You are “Ma’am.” You have witnessed and born much hell, for your daughter and the Grandpuppies. It beggars the imagination. You get a salute and respect here. I’ve been to war. I’ve seen hell too. Buried men too. Full military honours. Yet, your psychological and spiritual anguishes are hell. Again, my salute to you, your daughter and the Grandpuppies. May their be redemption in all this…to wit, that the Grandchildren, one day, may arise and say: “Based upon the written record, honour and decency was done by CLC and SGM. They acquitted themselves as honest Christians.” If I were a Grandparent (I got a 4-yr old Grandson), I would want them to look back and say, “CLC and SGM acted with honour and integrity.” You deserve that as a Grandmum. Your daughter deserves that. The Grandpups deserve that record.
I’d call that lawyer and see if she’s available. I’d insist that CLC pay all attorney’s fees. I’d insist on an open record with no non-disclosure statements. That would serve you, your daughter, the little Grandpups, CLC, SGM and the nation--their targetted audience--with truth and records. If I were in command, I would order it. Then correct the deficienices based on the record. Repent, based on the record. And order the changes.
I’d test CLC’s determination to be honourable.
I wish you all the best. My concern is with you: your daughter’s suffering, but also those lads and lasses. The lads and lasses matter here for a few generations. Let the children see honour, integrity, courage and bravery. That’s the stuff of Christian history, not to mention U.S. Marines.
My best regards, Ma’am.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:13 pm
@ Donald Philip Veitch; Thank you, Sir, and much respect to you as well. My son served in the Marines at the beginning of this most recent war, out of Camp Pendelton (He marched up the East side of Baghdad). You men are my heroes! His time in the Marines put him around men he could respect, to help shape him into the wonderful man he is today. Thank you for your sound advice.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:16 pm
Great post, Mr Veitch, and thank you for your service. God bless you and yours.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:21 pm
ExCLCer’s Mom:
1. Semper Fi to your son. I understand the 1st Marine ops in Gulf War 2. My salute to him and his fellow Marines.
2. You hold the cards here on a national level, I might add. You, your daughter and the Grandpups are in command. My focus would be the Grandchildren, one Grandparent to another. The focus is them. To redeem this horror requires full truth, honour, and decency. Anything shy of that is cowardice.
3. Stenographer, attorney, and a public record--for the nation to digest.
4. $50,000 dollars/per Grandchild by CLC, as restitution, to a 529-college fund. For pain, anguish, and suffering. Let the children see the written records and see “repentance meet with fruits.” Not cheap talk.
Best regards, you’ve all done tremendous work in potentially bringing reform where corruptions existed. Test the talk and see if they “walk the walk.” Best regards, especially to the Grandpups.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:36 pm
Let’s not forget SGMnot, and that family, who will certainly post when they are ready (mentioned they will be posting this weekend in an earlier blog). I feel pretty certain more victims will “come out of the woodwork”, as I even remind myself of the young 14 yr old girl that ExClcer brought up on an earlier post. She actually came into the Fairfax Church as a foster child, yet was coerced into a sexual relationship with the husband, then sent out here to CLC (where I met her), and was continually plummeted with accusations that she “had a spirit of adultery attached to her”, etc. I remember those times with her! Yes, my family is certainly not the only ones holding cards here! I would like to think the whole entire hand is in God’s hands (although, I know my daughter would beg to differ)! I think they should have to have some fund for victims that is not administered by them, perhaps?
August 12th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
Adullam said : “Having fired the warning shots that stirred up this current season of evaluation and confrontation, the blogs are also fully capable of shooting real repentance and change in the foot. Will it really be helpful to shout “Not good enough!” to the first steps of what everyone has been begging for here for years?”
My answer? Yes, it will still do good for prevention of further abuse and if the confession and repentance (if that is in Greg’s statement) is heartfelt, not just ego felt, then the apology will improve. If it deteriorates because of our mistrust then that is proof it was merely narcissistic in nature. I don’t need to know these men personally to dissect their words. AND, to be more cruel, even IF/WHEN they can get an apology right, caution for a time is in order. I would stop my criticism of the actual words. But if they come from a narcissist, it would not be long before you hear those words recanted.
But a truly healthy repentant person will continue forever to say sorry with out excuse and do all that is in their power to make restitution. Again, true repentance will withstand unkindness from this forum.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
I was abused but survived to confront my abusers. But when I did that it wasnt the evil people I expected. They were mostly misled and misinformed.
I look at it like medicine in the old days. Doctors used to bleed people and often bled them to death. But that was not the goal. They just worked under a misunderstanding and came from a background (med school) that said “this is the best way to do it”. I see many of the pastors the same way.
They lived in an organization that taught something that was very wrong. They picked up the tools and the lingo. They damaged people, but I dont believe that was their goal.
The first docs to give up bleeding faced the same kind of resistance that Greg is facing. He has seen that the old ways were not helpful and has tried to change paths. He can never apologize for the harm done to people by bleeding them, sometimes to death. Some of you will never ever ever forgive or forget. But that doesnt mean Greg doesnt feel some remorse.
And SGM and CLC did these things for years but that doesnt mean they cant/wont change.
I think if you read the posts and comments and docs carefully, you are seeing a small shift in the “iron curtain” that was SGM/CLC. Remember that Josh took over just 6.5 years ago. And we hear from the SILs that there have been disagreements on SGM for over two years!!?!!? It looks like Josh saw the writing on the wall and was slowly taking small measures to change the direction of a very large ship. That slow and gradual course correction was massively accelerated when Brent’s documents hit the net.
So now you see the big ship coming about, and not just the man at the helm is changing course but at least one other guy on the ship appears to be doing the same thing. These things take time. Pray they succeed, but give them time. The bleeding has stopped but the full correction is yet to come.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Ma’am, ExCLEer’s Mom:
Indeed, re: SGMnot also. Or, others.
This much, I suspect CLC or SGM has attorneys reading this. Also, giving them counsel behind the scenes. There may be “civil actions” that are warranted in terms of “reckless endangerment,” “statutory rape,” “obstruction of justice,” “aiding and abetting” as well as ministry malfeasance that brought compensable harms.
Also, this much, I wouldn’t be going into some meeting with Mr. Somerville without an attorney or without a stenographer. If CLC allows it, I’d accept it, provided the records would be available to the public.
Honourable, honest, and repentant Churchmen would clear the record by upfront, honest, and recorded statements replete with restitution as needed. There’s a reason Mahaney objected to the blogs. There’s a reason why he disagrees with “points of disagreement” (plural) with CLC while looking forward to “months” of mediation between CLC and SGM through the “Ambassadors or Reconciliation.”
My concern for you, your daughter and the Grandchildren is to avoid “being played” or “used.” Let them “walk the walk.” Honest jurors will clear the perps if they make restitution, amends and evince vehement repentance.