Kris says: Yesterday, I received the following from Covenant Life Church pastor GS, with a request that I post it…
Dear exCLCer and SGMnot,
This past week I read the stories that you posted on SGMSurvivors. The details are heartbreaking for me, the pastors of Covenant Life, and the members of our church. I cannot imagine the anguish these events have caused for you and your families. I am doubly grieved to know how deeply disappointed you are with the pastoral care you received during that crisis and in the years following.
In my 14 years of pastoral ministry at Covenant Life Church, I have so often failed to love and care for God’s people the way I should. If it weren’t for the grace of our Lord Jesus and the forgiveness of the saints, this pastor would not have the faith to keep caring for God’s precious church. Stories like yours cause me to cry out for more of God’s Spirit, more of God’s heart. I do
not want to fail his children in their time of deepest need!
I realize you don’t have much confidence in the pastors of Covenant Life Church right now, and I can understand that. But would you be willing to talk with me about your experience? Though I am sure it would be painful to review the details, I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future. And if
nothing else, I hope I could express the grief we feel for the suffering you have endured.
Kris has my e-mail address — please let her know if you are willing for me to contact you about this. In the meantime I will be praying for you and your family.
On behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,
GS
(Family Life Pastor)
August 13th, 2011 at 12:03 am
@ RadicallySaved, Thank you so much for your heart. I am not saying I am in any kind of a good spot financially right now (I asked my last job as administrator to “lay me off” because I could not tolerate the lies). I am in school. But, i cannot even think about money right now, as I really, truly am so broken-hearted to hear these outright lies. It hurts that “christians” can just outright lie, like there is not God who will hold them accountable one day? Do they NOT think He knows? What could possibly be going through their heads???
I DO believe a lot with my situation, and perhaps even now, has to do with money. I remind everyone I know how “The love of money is the root of all evil”. I tell them it is not the “possession” of money, rather the love, so whether you “have” money, or not-that is irrelevant-it is whether you love money. I do believe that is the root of the evil in CLC, and maybe Sov G-I dont know-only God knows. I do not at all EVER want to give ANYONE even the slightest possibility of saying that is what is taking place here. I have learned to “abase and abound”, and whether I have anything at all is not the point here. I am so disappointed to hear they will continue the lies from pastors on one hand, yet seek to resolve wrongs on another hand? Yes, we all realize that all humans have failings…but a “pastor” would give such affirmations, while another pastor seeks forgiveness for many of the same type offenses? Really? Is it now the church is schizophrenic?
Radically Saved, I so totally understand your heart! I understand how you want to give where God is moving, and not to lies and self-promotion. I just cannot go there tonight..my heart is seriously breaking all over again. Maybe I am not ready for this. Thank you, thank you all for your kind words and support. I dont know why I should feel such shock in the continued lies..I guess I just wasn’t ready for that.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:11 am
@ God is Able; No, he is not on the registry..it was before that law was passed. I have only kept anonymity out of respect for the website, seeing that was the example set. But, also, I wish no harm, even emotionally or spiritually, to his current daughters. As I said in an earlier post, lies and sin covered up only become more complicated.
Obviously, before Greg has anything at all to say to any of those hurt in the past, I believe he has to “clean house”, and at least stop lies coming from the “pastors” of his church!
August 13th, 2011 at 12:28 am
@ Just saying;
We have all been perplexed by those very questions. God will be the only One who truly knows. I have some speculations, and the reasons for those will become more clear once I have finished my “chronicles” that take everything in, from the beginning. It is quite long, so it will be awhile. I will just say here I believe it was a combination of “good ol boy network” (Gary was once expressed shock to me that I was not “the aggressor” in a premarital situation. No one ever spoke to me-and for years everyone assumed I was the aggressor? Hmmm…) Couple that with the fact that he was going to make in excess of 200k per year (plus bonuses), while I was on welfare….who was going to contribute more money to “the building fund”?
I will not paint myself as perfect here..I got “involved” with someone who I have since had three children with-we are still friends even today- I never felt “safe” marrying him, or having him live in my house, or combining our finances..When I was pregnant with the first child we had, the pastors asked me to leave the church because they could not allow “adultery and lasciviousness” in their church…Child abuse is okay-lets pay the retainer for his lawyer, and support him all the way, but I am pregnant by a consenting adult, and “God forbid we have this in our church”!? I GLADLY LEFT! The rest, even the courts, the social workers, and the judge himself could not figure. Only God knows. I think it is because he and his “new wife” thought they could have these children and form their own little ‘reality” of what is what, and “move on in God”. No one counted on the fact that my children are my life-they are my ministry for God-they are everything I was ever meant to be here for-and NO ONE, NO ONE CAN LOVE MY CHILDREN THE WAY I DO! Okay, well, God loves them probably even more, because He loves them perfectly, but you see my point. I do not think it is “co-incidence” that I now live across the street from an “author” who wants to write my story. The Trusth will come to light. All lies will be exposed. how can anyone, who really beievse in god can possibly think they could ever get away with lying?????? :scratch :scratch :scratch
August 13th, 2011 at 12:41 am
Still@CLC4now:
Whatever Greg wanted to express has been over-ridden by lies from one of the “pastors” under “his care”. he certainly has nothing to say to me until he stops the lies form within his pastors first. I will be very interested to hear how ExClcer and SGMnot weigh in on this tomorrow. SGMnot may not know me, but ExClcer knows my hatred for lying, and know the woman of truth that I am. I know that many here may not-it boils down to a “he said/she said” situation. These reasons are why I keep every court document (my kids call me a “pack rat”), but I will keep “absolute truths” to prove my point when necessary. I have proof after proof, after proof..but that is not where I wanted to go. I have moved on with my life, trusting God nonetheless. I thought, maybe God will reveal Himself with these “goings on” and my children will see…there is still “hope”, but maybe not through CLC,,,just disappointed here..I shouldn’t be surprised. That is what my children point out to me as a fault-I am “too nice”, “over optimistic”, I “believe the best” too quickly…I was hoping to have “justification” for those beliefs..maybe not yet…maybe from :spin somewhere else..
August 13th, 2011 at 12:50 am
@ExClcer’sMom: thank you for responding to Acme’s #231! I think it is very important that Greg and Corby hear that Mr A is not complying to his “accountability guidelines” that Corby thinks he is. (what exactly constitutes ‘…children that he interacts with’ anyway?!?)
I wouldn’t necessarily say that Corby or CLC is spewing lies — maybe Corby honestly believes these guidelines are being followed. But that is one of the benefits of openness and transparency and these blogs: the truth is usually revealed.
Again, thank you for declaring with vigor the truth…I am confident that Greg and Corby are listening.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:56 am
@It’s just the beginning; if you were a pastor in a church, responsible for so many parents and children, would you “leave” the safety of those children to the “accountability of a convicted child molester and his wife”? Seriously? Just how much Kool aid does one have to drink to get to THAT point?? :koolaid
Should Corby or even Greg say or make advances without first checking the reality of such things? Maybe it is just the kool aid effect…
I just dont understand, seriously…
August 13th, 2011 at 1:00 am
@exCLCer
Please know that the people here care about you. I hope you can experience God’s love here in a way you were denied by the church.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:16 am
@ExClcer’sMom: I don’t disagree with you at all .. having children of my own, I certainly will do everything in my power to safeguard them from child molesters.
I don’t know what the right “procedure” is in a case like this. Should Mr A be required, in his initial conversation with everyone he meets, to inform them about his horrid past? (maybe that’s a good idea given all the pain and suffering he has caused you and your family?!?)
…
The point I was trying to make is I’m glad this blog exists, where supposed fact can come out into the open [Corby's statement to Acme], people like yourself can shed the light of truth on them, and hopefully errors and wrong assumptions and bad policies/procedures can be corrected.
(It’s just a shame these bad policies/procedures exists in the first place — AND THAT is the understatement of the year!!!) http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/brickwall.gif
August 13th, 2011 at 1:22 am
Thank god for ExClcer! At this point she is much stronger than I. She has been through painful things I wish never happened. I had no family really as a child-I wanted so much more for my children. I gave them all I could, but put my trust in the wrong places. I know God is not finished yet. I do trust Him. I am not, however, strong enough to go through dealing with the lies from such people all over again.
@ Just saying, I appreciate your concern, I accept God’s love..I sp truly appreciate what everyone is doing on this website. Thank you to Kris and Guy, especially!
Please, dont get me wrong, I consider myself the most blessed among women-I really truly do. But, I still struggle with many things-I work very hard just to exist..I do not have energy to deal with useless lies.
I know that most of you who post here are not lying..I just strongly believe that CLC is NOT ready to deal with any of this until they root out the lying in their own midst! If I am wrong, so be it-God will have His way. But I know now that I need to just concentrate on my own survival right now-I need to continue to move on, and just wipe the dust from my feet.
I will still work on the “chronicles”, the book that is being written. The Truth will come out..I just cannot spend every night crying again, only to have lies trying to cover the truth. That really is important to me-maybe it is just me, I dunno, but that is how I feel. To all of you with pure hearts here, who remain steadfast-my best wishes to you all! I hope you will succeed one day in the changes we all hope to see.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:10 am
@ It’s just the beginning;
@ExClcer’sMom: I don’t disagree with you at all .. having children of my own, I certainly will do everything in my power to safeguard them from child molesters.
I don’t know what the right “procedure” is in a case like this. Should Mr A be required, in his initial conversation with everyone he meets, to inform them about his horrid past? (maybe that’s a good idea given all the pain and suffering he has caused you and your family?!?)
The point I was trying to make is I’m glad this blog exists, where supposed fact can come out into the open [Corby's statement to Acme], people like yourself can shed the light of truth on them, and hopefully errors and wrong assumptions and bad policies/procedures can be corrected.
The pain and suffering he has caused my family is NOT the point here…If a man had sexually molested another 11-13 yr old-details I could go into here, but will not-however, just take a moment, and try to imagine the pain and confusion of an 11 yr old having her “adopted” father do such sexual things to her night after night-TOTALLY DISGUSTING!.. Just where/when would YOU want to be told of such things before you exposed your 12 year old daughter??? How would Gary Ricucci feel about any of his daughters? Or maybe John Loftness with his daughters? I dont know if Greg has daughters, but I imagine if he did, they would be as far from Mr. A as Gary’s or John’s, or even CJ’s..easy for them to talk, and let lies abound-their daughters are not at risk here!
The point here is CLC is STILL covering up LIES!!! Not just individuals (I am not surprised Mr.A is lying-in all 12 years of marriage to him, he only did lie), but the “pastors” are lying? So, who is Greg coming to us representing? The Liars? I’m sorry-let me have a few more gallons of Kool-aid, for I do not see the sense in this yet! :koolaid
August 13th, 2011 at 2:30 am
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” --
— Mahatma Gandhi
I understand why my children have been so “confused”. What can I say? I dont know. God help us all.
August 13th, 2011 at 6:33 am
Pedophiles are saddled with an unspeakable burden that no one knows how to remove. As has been posted on this blog by those who have done the research out of hideous necessity (e.g. Stunned) those pedophiles who have consciences, especially those who have not acted on their urges, often loathe these urges. Often, though not always, they were victims themselves. I don’t think we can ever know how many never act on their urges; but surely the avoidance of public shame and humiliation is a motivator. And perhaps also a desire not to begin or continue such a destructive pattern. And when a pedophile is also a sociopath, as it seems with “Mr. A,” and thus lacking in conscience, empathy, or sensitivity to shame, he is a deadly risk to any child around him. He just is. In this case at CLC, as in others we know about, CLC is doing the equivalent of locking their children in a room with a lethal, aggressive viper. (That may be a bit of a hackneyed metaphor, but I recently watched an Animal Planet show about Black Mambas, which kill hundreds of people in Africa every year, and often shelter in homes.)
Pedophiles CANNOT be trusted with responsibility for their own “accountability.” Their problem does not go away because they have ready access to sex with an adult partner. Their problem certainly hasn’t gone away because they have learned to make correct responses. Their problem doesn’t go away because they have money. Their problem certainly doesn’t go away because they are professed christians. How we all wish it did! Their problem doesn’t go away because they have enlisted an enabler, such as a compliant spouse, an overprotective parent, or a reputation-obsessed organization. They will ALWAYS need close monitoring and children around them will ALWAYS need to be vigilantly protected by other adults who know all the facts.
I don’t want to make this post too lengthy, so in a post to follow shortly I’m going to share a story about our experience with this issue in my immediate family. I have not shared this story here before.
August 13th, 2011 at 6:59 am
Dear exclcer’s mom,
My heart is breaking for you and with you. But I know in my gut that God is allowing every single SGM lie to be exposed. God is revealing every bait and switch, every attempt to appease that is not sincere. Every attempt to try and do “business as usual” is being seen clearly by God, (and being recorded on the blogs almost immediately!) nothing is escaping His gaze. God really isn’t going to be mocked. I’ve read here for a couple of years now, but the last couple months of reading have been like watching all the SGM dominos fall down at break-neck speed. God is in the House. Please don’t lose heart. He will be your Triumph. When the enemy of our soul knows he is about to lose, he gets furious and throws out unbelievable tactics, you know, “darkest before the dawn” kinda stuff. But hold on, there is so much more going on than can be seen.
I believe there may be a few SGM pastors that Holy Spirit is convicting right now, and dealing with, giving them opportunity to “get some grit in their soul, man up and come clean.” I believe some will, but many wont. But that won’t stop God’s plan. I think what the Dave H’s et al haven’t figured out yet is: They are fighting against God. They have gotten so used to using His name in their marketing, but operating their business without Him, that they really haven’t recognized the fact that they are fighting against Him (See Acts 5:39); it’s very sobering to see the depth of human blindness from unchecked sin. Lord have mercy on us all.
A post or two back, someone gave you a portion of Psalm 126, and I believe it is a picture of what God is in the midst of doing for all who have been broken and harmed. He is, even now, bringing back the captives. May the Lord bless you with His Peace… MANM
When the LORD brought back the captivity of Zion,
We were like those who dream.
Then our mouth was filled with laughter,
And our tongue with singing.
Then they said among the nations,
“The LORD has done great things for them.”
The LORD has done great things for us,
And we are glad.
Bring back our captivity, O LORD,
As the streams in the South.
Those who sow in tears
Shall reap in joy.
He who continually goes forth weeping,
Bearing seed for sowing,
Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing,
Bringing his sheaves with him.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:16 am
@Katie in 249, I am not going to speak with regards to the children, but I can’t really agree that Greg himself is not a coolaid drinker. He has is a thinker, and an intelligent guy (except for his sgm blindness) but he has conformed to the sin sniffing mentality. Within those confines he is a man of integrity, and as I said before I think he is being as sincere as he knows how to be. I watched him and a singles pastor of years ago named Mark gradually become stronger coolaid drinkers over the years, all the while trying their very hardest to live with integrity….but to what standard? I believe to the sgm sin sniffing standard, it has been a loooong long time since they even said the name Jesus. The word gospel became so central and, as evidenced in the three recenct letters, is even more central, they have created their own words and their definitions and the pastors all speak the speak. Gospel fruitfulness? Whatever, Paul didn’t sure write like they speak. I just love the name of Jesus even more for how starving I was to hear his name for the way too many years I was there.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:21 am
226 yes!
If anyone is going to meet with the pastors regarding sexual abuse bring a lawyer with you.
When this ball of lies is unraveled, the end of the thread will be CJ. And he is “being cared for” in another church.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:31 am
Our story did not take place in SGM or any other church. And thank God it didn’t; because I think the secular authorities did a vastly better job dealing with it. They don’t give a s**t about anybody’s reputation, they just want to protect children and try to help perpetrators stay clean.
One of my grown daughters married the day after her high school graduation and gave birth to my first two granddaughters six months later. Those lovely girls were 4 or 5 when we left the church. Around that same time their parents divorced and my daughter was left a young single Mom. She got back together with a young man, I’ll call him Gary, who she had dated in high school — had known well for years. He moved in and they became engaged. She was happily planning her first real wedding. Some months later she discovered that he had been looking at child pornography on their computer. She kicked him out immediately. It’s important here for me to emphasize that Gary never touched a child BUT he has never again been in the presence of my two oldest granddaughters.
In an effort to get his life together and to win my daughter back, Gary turned himself in to the police for the felony offense of looking at child porn. He became a convicted felon with all the comcomitant lifelong consequences and a registered sex offender. He avoided jail time because he had turned himself in and had not touched a child but served a very restrictive probation for at least two years. As will all probationers, he could have gone to jail at any time. He was not allowed to leave the county without the written permission of his Probation Officer. He had a nine pm curfew. He surrendered the laptop and, while he was allowed to use a computer, he was not allowed ANY access to the Internet. He was not allowed to be anywhere children might be without very close accountability and chaperonage by another adult. Those of us who agreed to act as his chaperones had to sign a written document describing our responsibilites, basically agreeing to never let him out of our sight. He was not allowed to consume any alcohol. He was part of a sex offender’s counseling group that included several men who had touched minors and was treated just as they were. On Halloween, because so many children would be out trick or treating, he was required to gather with all of the sex offenders on probation at a local fire station. He had to submit to, and was billed for, regular polygraphs. My daughter agreed to go for counseling as well. I’m describing this in such detail because of the contrast between the consequences to Gary, who never touched a child and chose to turn himself in, and the child rapists whose stories have been told here. (And I don’t mean that I am minimizing or excusing Gary’s noxious offense.)
Sometime during his probation, my daughter, who is fiercely loyal and loving, agreed to start seeing him again. They had a child together, my precious third granddaughter. She and Gary wanted very badly for him to be present at her birth, so carefully coordinated with Gary’s PO. He was to be chaperoned at the hospital (by someone other than my daughter) so his mother and I signed documents agreeing that one of us would be physically with him every moment and wait right outside the door when he used the restroom. As happens so often now, it turned out that my daughter had to have a C-section, when only one family member can be in the OR. It couldn’t be him; so I went in with her. It took a long, long time for them to get over that unexpected heartbreak and he didn’t get to hold his daughter until much later. So my daughter was a single Mom with school-aged twins and an infant and because of the terms of his probation he could only help her minimally. They did eventually determine visitation conditions with the help of his parents. His probation has been at an end for years now; but he still has never been with his daughter without restrictions in place. For instance, he has never changed her diaper or taken her to the restroom. Even before my daughter ended the relationship for good (for reasons unrelated to these issues) he never lived with them again. She knows that a pedophile is ALWAYS a pedophile and ALWAYS requires very close and specific accountability. My other daughter would never have him in her home. If one of us found out that he was around other children without restrictions and absent the full knowledge of their parents, she would raise hell.
I actually like this young man and get along well with him — he was always kind to me. But he is a pedophile and that is the reality of his life. A sad, sad reality. But THANK GOD he has had the close and wise scrutiny that he has in order to help him act no further on his impulses.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:33 am
#264 great insight! And I agree with you because how in the world could you subject yourself to that sgm doctrine year after year without trampling your conscience into the dirt? gospel not Jesus, anyone?
Within that system he is a man of integrity and I am sure he is— within a very warped system which has to warp his perceptions also.
Cindy K wrote a comment on a post from the Wartsburg Watch the other day about words and definitions that I liked and I think you will too. here is the link for that http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/10/the-devolution-of-sgm-repudiation-of-hyper-authoritarian-leadership/
her comment is towards the bottom at 6:34 am
August 13th, 2011 at 7:34 am
ExClcer’s Mom,
I can completely realte to your feeling of needing to concentrate on your own survival each day and move on from focusing on the hurts of the past. For what it is worth, I have found the same thing you describe about the ongoing believing in lies by SG leaders and members. From time to time, I run into people from my old SG church and when I talk to them I can still hear all of the lack of truth and insight that they possess in regards to their lives and their struggles. So many times I have tested the waters with a tiny bit of truth that I see them struggling with -- truth that doesn’t even involve issues concerning their SG church, just Biblical truth about life in general -- and I hear all the lies that they are believing and trying to pass on as wisdom. I walk away and think the same thing that you said. They are not ready to hear what God continues to open my heart to see and not only are they not ready to hear it for whatever reason, many of them are running 100 miles an hour in the wrong direction….without the True Shepherd leading them. And I know that apart from God’s grace, I would be too. And knowing that makes my worship and love for Jesus only purer.
Only you know the truth of your situation in your heart with God…let it set you free. I pray that you would always hear His voice above all others and let Him lead you to His heart so that He can continue to heal yours. I believe in you.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:36 am
@Phoenix #262: Thank you for such a good post….those are wise thoughts and it really made me stop and think. Thank you.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:40 am
One Reason Why CLC Cannot Leave SGM (from the SGM Financial Statement):
“SGM capitalized a payment of $1,890,190 to the Church for its right to use 17,125 square feet of buildings and improvements placed in service by the Church beginning August 1, 2002. An agreement was established between SGM and the Church under which SGM is given use of the building for successive terms of ninety-nine years and the Church provides all services, maintenance and repairs required for the upkeep of the property. SGM reimburses the Church for its share of these expenses at a mutually agreed upon rate, determined annually. The agreement contains a termination provision allowing either party to end the agreement after giving 24 months notice. Under the terms of the agreement the Church would be required to make a termination payment to SGM based in part on the fair value of the building no later than 18 months before termination.”
==================
Actually, it looks like 1.89 million reasons….
August 13th, 2011 at 7:42 am
Phoenix #266, Wow. Quite a contrast isn’t it from “just looking” at child porn to the actual rape of an 11 yr old stepdaughter?
August 13th, 2011 at 7:45 am
ExCLCer’sMom -- I woke up to read this and my heart has been breaking for you. I pray you got some sleep last night and that you will have peace even while bringing up all these emotions. Please know that I am praying for you -- as many on here are.
There is simply no way to make this right. Simply no way. They can set policies in place for the future -- and enforce those policies -- but it still will never make things right with you and your family.
That said (and now I am talking to others weiging in on the matter) -- I believe the CLC pastors are trying. Some have been going back to those they hurt in the past and making apologies. We have seen an unprecedented openness and humility. They sincerely seem to want to learn from their mistakes and make things better in the future. No, they can never make things right with everyone in the past they have hurt -- simply impossible. But, they can make changes from here forward.
I was in SGM (mainly CLC) for 20 years and have my share of difficuties with them -- and, yes, hurts, too. I think the reason so many of us struggle with hurt is because we trusted and loved our local church and our pastors SO MUCH (yes, we drank the koolaid) -- if we had not then they would not have had the power to hurt us.
Please, let’s remember the people we know and love still in SGM and pray that these changes we’re seeing will bear lasting fruit. This whole situation has the potential to cause much more hurt and disillusionment. Let’s pray that it does not.
Thank you, Greg, for trying to reach out. And, thank you Josh for all you are doing. You are also in my prayers.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:58 am
Old Timer,
Yes, it is, and I have been very proud of my daughter for how she has handled it. Making the choice to be alone as a Mom is very, very difficult. She, btw, is in a relationship now with a wonderful, responsible guy who is crazy about her children and will be an outstanding stepfather.
I’m one who was also very close to the aftermath of Noel’s story and the minimal consequences to that perp. And I’ve learned a lot more about that in the intervening years. So maybe hearing my own family’s story will help folks understand the seeming harshness of some of my posts about how perp’s family handled that situation. Like Stunned I KNOW it can be done better. I KNOW the hard choices can be made and life can go on.
August 13th, 2011 at 8:08 am
Phoenix, I am also very proud of the way that you handled this all and loved both the children, your daughter and this young man, who I am sure is tortured with his thoughts. I am also very proud of him for turning himself in. This is nearly unheard of.
We still don’t know what makes these desires spring up in some people, but I can not imagine him being able to handle himself (by turning himself into the police) in a more responsible and godly manner. You didn’t mention that he was a Christian so I’m assuming he is not, but why does he act godly and our own brothers and sisters, so ungodly in their desire to cover this up? A thousand huzzahs for “Gary” for turning himself in.
These are not siutations that should be covered up as it involves all of us, as predators or pedophiles, for the most part, can not spend the rest of their lives avoiding situations where there are potential victims and it is up to us as a society to be careful and watchful and on guard. It is also on our shoulders (those of us who are Christians) to love these men & women (the pedophiles) and to love them in such a way that we protect ANY future victims while also seeing to it that their past and current victims are our highest priority; to seek healing and comfort for them.
Kudos to you, Phoenix. My respect for you grows daily.
August 13th, 2011 at 8:27 am
Unfortunately, there are some things that never change . . . so much much for “stepping down” -- here is a rough translation (from Google Translate) of CJ’s bio from the conference he and the boys are suffering at right now:
C.J. Mahaney leads Sovereign Grace Ministry of whose mission is to establish and support local churches. On September 18, 2004, having pastored for 27 years the Church Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland, CJ passed by Head Pastor Joshua Harris. This allowed him to focus completely on the ministry of Sovereign Grace. Serves on the Board for the Alliance of Evangelical professors and the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
Some of the books C.J. are as follows: “Humility: True Greatness”, “Living a life centered on the Cross” and “Sex, Romance and the Glory of God.” He is the editor of the books “worldliness” and “Why Have Small Groups?” And has co-authored several other books in the series of “The Pursuit of Holiness Ministry of Sovereign Grace.
C.J. and his wife Carolyn have three married daughters and a son. Currently living in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
:scratch
August 13th, 2011 at 8:42 am
Stunned, you brought tears to my eyes. Thank you. It is such a mark of God’s grace that the difficult things we go through can be used for good not just for us, but for others. And I think that is the testimony of many in our community here.
When I think of my own failures (as distinct from my struggles and hurts,) and there are many, I don’t just think with gratitude of how God has used them to shape me and my life for the better. I also think of how I can stand on my failures to help others. Sometimes by sharing them directly and sometimes just by knowing what it is to sin and struggle and fail.
August 13th, 2011 at 8:47 am
” How much does SGM need in savings for emergencies?”
A lot. A few bad giving months is serious business. Just ask to see an electric bill for one month, sometime. The mega’s was between 15,000-20,000 month. For huge buildings that were 2/3 empty for most of the week. Such great stewardship for believers.
How much are total salaries? If you were allowed to see a detailed budget, you would understand why they need large emergency funds. CLC’s is not that large.
Keeping the money flowing in right now is a huge concern because of the scandal and the economy. Church is big business. That is another reason for conferences. They are cash cows.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:04 am
PDI Past, at least now we know why there was a need for a “preliminary panel” to don CJ with the title worthy to lead. I’m guessing this enabled CJ to speak at a conference in spite of his having “stepped down”. Stepping down from what, I wonder? He still speaks at conferences, he still goes into his office every day, he still receives his full salary, he still has meetings with people. He was doing all of this beforehand. Only difference I can tell- and my ability to see is quite limited so I would truly welcome others speaking up and correcting me here- is that he has stepped down from going to church at CLC. And was he even there weekly to begin with? I don’t know. Others would have to know more than me and can enlighten us.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:11 am
“ExCLER Mom – I just want to reiterate my offer given to your precious daughter, even though it’s a very small token of love – I want to provide some financial assitance in lieu of a tithe to my local SGM church. I have stopped tithing now for several months and have been praying fervently that the Holy Spirit would direct my tithe and it has been a fun exciting few months.”
Radically saved, Now we are talking! Bless you, my friend!
THIS is an example of the true Body of Christ in action.
Let the Holy spirit lead in giving. Pretty soon, you will be sliding anonymous envelopes of cash under single mom’s doors so they can fix their car to go to work. Or helping an out of work family one month.
THIS is the Body of Christ. Forget that big fancy building and high salaries. Let the Holy Spirit guide and be the Body of Christ to one another.
Since there is no “tithe” for the NC, The Holy spirit might guide some to become more radical at some point than 10%. The OC tithe system was more like 23.5 percent. There is no designated percent for us in the NC since WE are the Body and there is no temple anymore.
So YES! Pray that you are shown those in need of help and give it to them. This is the true Body at work. And give it anonymously. See Matt 6.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:15 am
In the future, if anyone out there reading ever chooses to meet with anyone from CLC and/or an SGM entity to discuss a serious event in your life, make sure you bring a credible witness and/or a lawyer friend with you. CLC/SGM have shown they are untrustworthy with the handling of serious offenses. Also DO NOT let them assert any kind of legal privilege over your meetings…
On another note, don’t some of you think that the more money and resources that SGM keeps wasting in trying to defend CJ could have gone to compensate the former victims and persons who were expelled because of CJ’s twisted double standard. How come no one seems to be questioning the new “financial impropriety” that is taking place by defending CJ and letting this drag on. I for one left CLC because of the “corporate like” structure the church had taken. I hope all this foolishness changes because all this bad publicity (thank you CJ and SGM) is what affects the Christian body as a whole in the eye of the public.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:16 am
“PDI Past, at least now we know why there was a need for a “preliminary panel” to don CJ with the title worthy to lead. I’m guessing this enabled CJ to speak at a conference in spite of his having “stepped down”. ”
Al Mohler had already made this clear before the panel met. Do you remember that? He was never “stepping down” from all his appearances, etc.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:10 am
Matt- thanks for clarifying about the rainy day savings.
( this may turn out to be a monsoon :D )
exclcermom…..is it possible that Greg heard all the campers were warned from somebody else and didn’t know that is false? With so many people in the church he must have to delgate a lot and is not on top of everything. I vote to give him more time. I am cynical too, but let’s see if he/they make a greater effort to deal with the mess before we assume there is no repentance.
From here on out, no half hearted SGMese-speak type letters of apology from any church will do IMO. They are going to have to really put out some hard hitting gut spilling fact exposing no holds barred apologies. This is a final exam and they will either pass or fail. The time for spin games is over.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:15 am
@Matt #280 -- how true! I know we’re not supposed to speculate on someone’s movtives, but it sure is hard not to reach that conclusion, given the timing of how quickly the preliminary panel was thrown together and came to their conclusion. And, if true, what a bunch of whitewashed hooey this all is. How do you not get cynical in the face of all this?
Separately, I’m new here so please forgive me if there are things I just don’t understand, but why does CLC let Mr A, an admitted pedophile, be in a ministry position that involves overnights with young girls? Isn’t that kind of absurd? God can use all of us in ministry, sinners though we all are and in spite of our pasts, but doesn’t some common sense have to be applied? Surely there’s a place for him that doesn’t involve overnights with children? Given that he’s allowed to continue in that role, doesn’t it make it hard to trust CLC on this issue unless that changes?
August 13th, 2011 at 10:17 am
-- Off Topic Warning — :mic
With nods to folks here like Donald P Veitch, Ozymandias, Ex CLCer’s Mom -- and others… who have the mindset of a historian. I had an aunt who passed away several years ago, who was a university librarian by trade, and had a keen interest in our family history as well as the historical and cultural influences that shaped those family members’ world views and perspectives on current events of their time, politics, religion, and culture. She was also a hoarder, you could barely walk through her house…
Where I’m going with this, is that there are a number of stories either from the past or in play now, both of the disastrous effects of SGM leadership’s behaviors, and of characteristics of and changes in SGM’s doctrine, policies and/or polity over the years. I’m sure it would be a gargantuan effort, but am wondering if an expanded version of Jenn Grover’s timeline with a scope and details beyond the BD documents and related events, would be a worthwhile effort (seems to me as though DPV may already be thinking in that direction?). Weave the rabbit trails into a tapestry, as it were. If the SGM/CLC folks ever get to the point of some healthy “Where did we go wrong?” introspection, such an account might “serve” them well (I had a hard time typing that). I think I’ve read in a couple of places where CJ is quite interested in the legacy SGM leaves… maybe an accurate timeline/narrative from the koolaid-free perspective would provide a little clarity on SGM’s true legacy.
Just a random thought.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:32 am
@waiting/deciding #283: Mr A is not in ministry at CLC in any capacity. I believe the camping trip in question was either just a bunch of CLC families going on a camping trip … or possibly something to do with “the band” I’ve heard mentioned--the band’s families went on a camping trip?!?
I don’t understand the full details of the camping trip..but I’m confident that Mr A is not serving in official ministry at CLC in any way.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:34 am
@It’s just the beginning: thanks for the clarification!
August 13th, 2011 at 10:43 am
4merCLC said, “On another note, don’t some of you think that the more money and resources that SGM keeps wasting in trying to defend CJ could have gone to compensate the former victims and persons who were expelled because of CJ’s twisted double standard.”
Hear hear! Your whole post was excellent.
5YearsinPDI said, “is it possible that Greg heard all the campers were warned from somebody else and didn’t know that is false? With so many people in the church he must have to delgate a lot and is not on top of everything.”
5 Years, I agree completely. That church is big. In fact, no church is small enough for one person to hold this kind of info and to keep everyone accountable. That is why this information must be available for ALL to know about. All. At all times. Not to shame the pedophile, but so that the entire church can know (after the original announcement is made, all new-comers must be given this info, as well) so each parent can take the responsibility to protect their children and so that each church goer can be sensitive to the needs of the families and possibly the pedophiles. Heck, it would even force each church member to face their own victimiazation if they experienced it and to possibly, finally deal with sex abuse in a loving, godly setting.
I still would give anything to not have had my little family member sexually abused, but once we stood before Dad’s church and spoke about what he had done and discussed what was going on, etc and had an elderly woman in the church come up to me and confide in me- for the first time she had ever told anyone in her entire life- that as a small child she had been sexually molested, it made all the transparency more than worth it! This woman was beginning to be set free from a lifetime of shame. I am tearing up, remembering how she and I stood in the sanctuary (and it truly became a holy place at that moment) and held each other. I can’t tell you the look on her face. It radiated with joy. She was becoming free. For the first time since she was a little girl. I had known this woman for years but I had never seen her look that way.
Please, people, please, stop acting like victims should be ashamed, or keep this to themselves. That is the plan of Satan himself. (And unfortunately too many foolish pastors.) Speak out. Let them know they are not alone!
Praying that all the other sanctuaries in the country become holy places as they choose to reveal their secrets, too,
Stunned
August 13th, 2011 at 10:56 am
Very well said Stunned #287!!!
I hope Greg and the CLC pastors respond to your comment and everyone else’s past hurts and experiences. Praise God that truth is finally being revealed.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:07 am
One of the topics mentioned a number of times is what to do with a known pedophile. I wanted to share an experience we had with Wycliffe Bible Translators last year.
My husband and I had the unfortunate circumstance to report a pedophile to Wycliffe Bible Translators because we knew of a man (pedophile) who was scheduled to go abroad to do translation work and could be exposed to children and be unsupervised.
Wycliffe has a whole department to investigate cases like this. The reputation of Christ is on the line when their people go abroad to do translation work. They took our information very seriously by first immediately canceling the trip and then notified the man that they had information that would be investigated. Someone was designated to pull his history -- from police records to investigate friends/family members. Once it was determined that he was indeed a pedophile, they sent a professionally trained counselor and an admin person to the pedophile’s area to interview family members and give their report. (Obviously they took it seriously -- paying air fare and a few nights in a hotel as well as car rental -- and keep in mind Wycliffe is a non-profit -- all this $$ comes from donors). The counselor met with the immediate family separately -- gave their recommendations as well as a report. In this case, even though the man had not “acted out on his urges” for over 20 years, they no longer wanted him to work in any capacity for them. This man is fluent in 5 or 6 languages -- even tribal languages and was a valuable resource to them. After their investigation, they ruled that he is not allowed to set one foot on any of their campuses. There was one last meeting with the counselor and all family members present setting up a plan on how he can continue to have relationships with his grandchildren with supervision and what that looks like. Aside from that, Wycliffe also reported this man to authorities who did their own investigations and recommendations. Even though he completely admitted to sexually abusing many boys as young as 2 years old, because no one ever turned him in, he is not a criminal, has no record for these crimes, and does not have to register as a registered sex offender.
We have been the ones to ask, “what are you doing to ensure that this does not happen again?, “what safeguards do you have in place at your current church to ensure that you are never alone with children?”, “what have you disclosed to your current pastor regarding your past?” Strangely enough, even though this man has been honest when confronted, he still is very reluctant to set up these very important safeguards which tells us that there is still something there for him that makes him untrustworthy. We know the result of being a victim of sexual abuse, so we continually bring up these issues of accountability. Our relationship is strained within the family now because we continually ask these tough questions. The family accuses us of being unforgiving and not letting go -- after all, he hasn’t abused in 20 years. However, all it takes is one relapse and then another soul is emotionally scarred for life. We don’t want that to happen.
Anyway, I shared this to show how a respected Christian organization deals with sex abuse in a very responsible way. Literally thousands of dollars from donor money was used to investigate this one pedophile. Not only did they investigate and remove him from ever working with Wycliffe, but they also provided counseling and recommended counselors after they were finished. Wycliffe, in my opinion, went above and beyond what they were required to do. They could have easily have kicked him out and shut the door, but they treated the whole family lovingly and respectfully and trying to get the family on the road to healing. Perhaps SGM and other churches can learn a thing or two from Wycliffe about the seriousness of sexual abuse within the church and learn to establish accountability and safe boundaries for those within the church who have or are currently abusers.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:20 am
I realized I need to just step back for a bit here. Why was I so stunned that a child molester lies? Why was I so stunned that a koolaid drinking pastor “accepts simply the word” of a child molestor? Why am I so surprised to see the “good ol boy network” still in action? (GS’s teenage son plays with this band sometimes, BTW And he is the pastor to reach out to us? Hmmm) I can be over optimistic sometimes-maybe it is “after effects” of too much koolaid.
I do see there is no reason to meet with the pastors, and I thank God that He will bring the truth out no matter how much Koolaid passes through the halls and homegroups of SGM!
I “vented” and expressed anger-not saying that was bad-but I do want to make sure no one here thinks I in any way directed that anger to those involved here. I was angry at myself for being so optimistic. I was angry at myself to have even been considering Greg’s offer! Donald Philip Veitch, you are such a wise man! You “called that shot” from the beginning!
Not only Greg being so closely involved with said pedophile, but to not even acknowledge that at the beginning? He is the “Family Life Pastor”, and does not insure that parents are told about the history of this man? Is that being a pastor?-”accepting the word” of a convicted pedophile?? However anyone tries to spin that one, it is still abhorrent! :koolaid
@Fried Fish #284; That is exactly what I am working on. A neighbor of mine is also an author, having already published one book, and finishing up another biography. I have begun my writings already.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:25 am
Jewell,
My respect for Wycliff just went up a ton. Thanks for sharing that information. That is the way it should be done.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Matt, I will contact Kris, and request you be given my email address, where we can communicate directly. I appreciate your offer, and I totally understand your perspective on that! I do not want to share my email publicly, because I do not want to open myself to some of the same “hate mail” that my daughter has received after she began to speak up.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:28 am
YES, Matt! I agree! Jewell, I love that story! A good example of an organization who has the fear of God more than the “good ol boy” mentality! :clap :clap :clap
August 13th, 2011 at 11:39 am
“I do see there is no reason to meet with the pastors, and I thank God that He will bring the truth out no matter how much Koolaid passes through the halls and homegroups of SGM!
I “vented” and expressed anger-not saying that was bad-but I do want to make sure no one here thinks I in any way directed that anger to those involved here. I was angry at myself for being so optimistic. I was angry at myself to have even been considering Greg’s offer!”
Exclc’ersmom,
You did nothing more or less than Eve did when she listened and believed the serpent. Remember, the serpent said something to the effect of: “Oh surely God did not mean that”.
The great thing about Eve is that she ADMITTED IT. (Adam did not, he blamed God and Eve for his sin)
My point is, the evil has always been systemized at SGM. They know nothing else. In fact, they probably slap themselves on the back for “saving” the pervert and his now being a “head” of a family and branding any discussion or concern as gossip. They don’t know this is evil. That is how far gone they are. That is why they are so dangerous to masquerade as specially anointed believers who know best for others.
I am not making excuses for them just trying to get folks to open their eyes to what they think is some big change going on at CLC or SGM. They are fighting to keep the prize. The very systems that maintains their influence and incomes.
Write the book. That will help more people in the long run. And I hope it will provide you with some income. Just remember, it is not a sin to tell the truth. Even when the truth is very negative.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Congratulations Donald!
There was an offer to have a conversation. Who knows where it would have led…repentance, reconciliation, RESTITUTION?
But, at least for one party, no conversation will occur.
Yesterday was not about the free flow of ideas and opinion, it was about influence, with Donald, who showed up on the blogs about a month ago being the loudest voice.
So wise and caring, and an instant expert about a denomination you know nothing about.
Congratulations, and well done.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
“GS’s teenage son plays with this band sometimes,”
I’m a bit confused about this band. Is it a Christian music singing band, worship band?
And please just so I am very clear, Mr. A is a member of the band?, Leader of this band? And GS allows his child to play in the band with him? I am trying to wrap my head around this. Why would anyone trust that Greg can lead intelligently!?!
Why isn’t he getting on this blog and explaining his reasonings ???
SGMers, THINK !!!
GS, THINK !!! You should not be just ‘hoping to convey your grief’ to these victims of your church’s ‘care’ you should be barfing your guts out in grief of your own deceptions and leading others into it. Maybe you are, maybe you are just starting to come into the light and you are too sick over your own complicity and too weak to respond right now, I hope that is what is happening. I sure hope my daughter’s next correspondence with you will be after your detox and you helping all the other members to see the light of day also.
I believe there are plenty of leaders here on this blog that would be more than willing to mentor you. Reading your bio tells me you might not know any more of other Christianity than Josh knows.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
ACME said -A couple points of clarification,
I understand from Corby Megorden — another Family Life pastor at CLC — that “Yes [Mr. A] is a member who has strict accountability guidelines including informing any parents of children that he interacts with of his past so they can decide their level of interaction.” This has been confirmed as well as by one of the other adult band members (there are several) and from Mrs. A.
Also, evidently the camping trips were not associated with the band, but families camping together.
ACME great job of simultaneously trashing Corby and sending exCLCer ‘s Mom into orbit. The word EVIDENTLY is speculation on your behalf. The fact is that everything that Corby stated to you could be accurate.
If someone does not comply with the church’s request what recourse do they have? If the camping had nothing to do with the band or the church how does the church keep him accountability? Would you put yourself under this excessive shepherding like accountability? Let me speculate probably not especially if every activity church or otherwise needed to be approved by a pastor. In other words you can’t have it both ways either the church controls your every move or they don’t. Most of the complaints on this blog are about excessive interference. I know many think he is so much worse a sinner and a snake ready to strike but if he has submitted to the best of anyones knowledge to the requests what do you want CLC to do? They have informed the parents in the band. Do you want them to publically identify him once a month? Maybe the church can issue him a tracking device? I am sure he would not leave and would want the church to track him wherever he goes for the rest of his life.(sarcasm) By the way it might be wrong but the State of Maryland (not CLC)did not require him to be a registered sex offender. Do you think that anyone including CLC could be subjected to a defamation suit for publically calling him a sex offender when the State of Maryland did not?
It truly is a shame that no matter what the pastors do at this point it will be pick apart until some fault is found. Now I can state this till I am blue in the face, WHAT HAPPENED TO MOM AND FAMILY WAS WRONG! IT HAPPENED MORE THEN 20 YEARS AGO BEFORE GREG WAS A PASTOR, CORBY WAS A PASTOR, AND JOSH WAS EVEN IN THE CHURCH.
Please let them try to serve!! By the way of those involved one pastor is no longer a pastor at CLC he is employed by SGM. The other pastor is no longer a pastor at CLC he is in a different church all together.
Since MOM already knew (by her own statement) that the 12 year olds mother in question did not know about the man’s past and the camping trip the only statement that distressed her was yours. The statement of yours, per Corby that, “Yes [Mr. A] is a member who has strict accountability guidelines including informing any parents of children that he interacts with of his past so they can decide their level of interaction.” The speculative natures of your next statement (using the word evidently) lead MOM to believe that Corby was lying.
As a wordsmith you might want to be careful to use your words very carefully since an innocuous statement or even a statement of support can be misinterpreted. It did not seem like you meant to cause such a stir but that is what happened. I hope you and everyone else on this blog want reconciliation if not then you are doing exactly what the detractors think you are doing. You are doing nothing more than instigating, trashing people, and hoping for the destruction of CLC.
I just put on my suit of armor awaiting the verbal pounding from the blog.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
@Jim@#295.
1. Sorry, Jim, some perspective. I’ve understood the two poles, your view, attempting to honour the overture of Mr. Somerville (which has merit, as previously noted), and those on the other end that are cautious. Actually, have embraced both poles without a conclusion on it in either direction. Go back and read cautiously.
2. On the other hand, I’ve watched Mr. Detwiler’s insistence on mediation “with a written record.” That hasn’t been answered by Mr. Mahaney. Mr. Detwiler’s view, in my opinion, is wise and prudent under these circumstances…mediation with stenography and no non-disclosure statements. I’d even recommend formal affidavits or depositions, with recorders, so the record would be established.
3. Adults make their own decisions. That is respected. Whatever one does, it’s their decision and their’s alone.
4. Whatever other’s may do, my decision, for which I am responsible, is the counsel of caution. You may disagree. That’s your call. My call? I’ll stand by the counsel.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Jim, I have the highest of respect for you, but if hothing happens now it will not be Donald’s fault.
It will be the fault of Greg S not saying “OK, these people are very cynical, very negative, very disillusioned, and unable to trust me….so I will do everything possible on my part to fix this and live at peace with all men. I will let them bring a lawyer and take notes and put it online, and I will clarify in writing WHY I/we didn’t warn a Mom whose girl was on the camping trip. I will go out of my way to walk the second mile with these people who are not believeing the best of me right now. I will post a longer, more detailed, non whitewashed letter with all the facts, even if I end up getting sued, and I will do EVERYTHING I can to make it right”
If Greg does his part honestly and righteously, I can guarantee that all the cynics here like me will support him, and will encourage Mom to get together at CLC- WHEN Greg deals with this properly. Greg CAN earn back trust and respect. It can be done and any failure to do so lies now with Greg, not Donald. The request for Mom’s lawyer to be present at CLC’s expense is perfectly reasonable.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
Friend of the Friendless, welcome to the blog. I’m stumped by your personal attack. Truly.
First of all, I have no desire to pound you nor to trash people. Feel free to disagree with me on this or any other matter.
Secondly, I shared what I learned — a direct quote from one of the other Family Life pastors — and made corrections based on what I learned talking to other parties involved. I didn’t trash Corby (and yes, I know him personally, having been in CG with him and V for several years before he became a pastor). I say again that there is some kind of disconnect here. He may truly believe that procedures are being followed.
I’m sorry the word “evidently” causes you such problems. I wanted to say that the trips and the band were two separate enterprises, not as previously been stated part of the same. Is there another word I should have used that would have been less inflammatory?
I’ll admit, the reaction was not what I expected, and I definitely had an “Oh, shoot” moment, but I am trying to do the right thing.