Kris says: Yesterday, I received the following from Covenant Life Church pastor GS, with a request that I post it…
Dear exCLCer and SGMnot,
This past week I read the stories that you posted on SGMSurvivors. The details are heartbreaking for me, the pastors of Covenant Life, and the members of our church. I cannot imagine the anguish these events have caused for you and your families. I am doubly grieved to know how deeply disappointed you are with the pastoral care you received during that crisis and in the years following.
In my 14 years of pastoral ministry at Covenant Life Church, I have so often failed to love and care for God’s people the way I should. If it weren’t for the grace of our Lord Jesus and the forgiveness of the saints, this pastor would not have the faith to keep caring for God’s precious church. Stories like yours cause me to cry out for more of God’s Spirit, more of God’s heart. I do
not want to fail his children in their time of deepest need!
I realize you don’t have much confidence in the pastors of Covenant Life Church right now, and I can understand that. But would you be willing to talk with me about your experience? Though I am sure it would be painful to review the details, I want to make sure our pastoral team learns all we can from your experience so that we can better serve other families in the future. And if
nothing else, I hope I could express the grief we feel for the suffering you have endured.
Kris has my e-mail address — please let her know if you are willing for me to contact you about this. In the meantime I will be praying for you and your family.
On behalf of the pastors of Covenant Life Church,
GS
(Family Life Pastor)
August 11th, 2011 at 10:12 pm
good for you, greg.
August 11th, 2011 at 10:15 pm
@ Mom…..Mom- it is so horrible. May it be true for you, that those who go forth weeping bearing precious seeds, will reap with shouts of joy. May your mourning be turned to joy and God give back the years the locusts have eaten.
Greg- as someone who reads and posts here I appreciate your letter and expression of desire to make things right on behalf of the church, even if you personally were not involved with the situation.
The following wrong demands a public apology:
May I also point out that I probably speak for the majority of us in saying it’s all a lot of hot air until SGM makes FINANCIAL restitution to people for all the time and money and counseling that resulted from your inept bungling of the situations, inc those at CLC, Noel, Happymom, etc.
If your lawyer advises you not to admit to wrongdoing and make any financial paymets at all because that could end up as a huge lawsuit payout to the victims for extra “pain and suffering”, tell your lawyer to go to hell, you plan to do what is right no matter what the result.
Thanks for the letter. Praying for Josh and all of you.
August 11th, 2011 at 10:20 pm
Hey there, Greg. Just a thought. If you read ExCLCer’s story, YOU can talk to Riccuici (and of course CJ….) to get her contact info. They are the ones who stood by a child molester and condemned a woman for standing up for her child.
Man up and YOU make the FIRST step and contact her and all the others directly.
After all that harm that CLC has done to them, why wouldn’t the pastors of CLC make the FIRST CALL when their online acounts make it clear who they are?
As a member of CLC, I appreciate this effot to make ammends, to do the right thing. PLease don’t be half hearted about it… Thanks.
August 11th, 2011 at 10:23 pm
This is history folks. I don’t know the story, or who’s a good guy or a bad guy, but I know that a SGM pastor has never reached out to a wounded sheep on one of the blogs.
Historical moment.
August 11th, 2011 at 10:28 pm
:goodpost
good thought jim
August 11th, 2011 at 10:28 pm
ExClcerMom can I just tell you how much respect I have for you and your daughter. I feel heartbroken that you not only had experience the pain of having that happen to your child but that you experienced a betrayal from the church that is beyond me!
Ughhhh this stuff really makes me sick!!! I can’t even imagine a mediore pastor ‘caring’ for a member like this. Especially Gary, who seemingly has a reputation for supposedly having the gift of healing…well his awful statement seems very ‘healing’. I don’t know why but I can’t separate Gary telling exclcer’s mom that her poverty was self induced and his daughter mocking her dad for spending countless hours planning their vacations to Disney. What a joke.
So now the pastors send a message from the uber nice guy pastor at the same time they post a blog saying if you are not relationally connected to some piece of news you should bury your head in the sand!!! Come on people, isn’t that the type of thinking that allowed all this secrecy to protect the prepatrator and none of the other church members to even know enough to help this family!?!?
August 11th, 2011 at 10:39 pm
Is cynicsm a sin ? :scratch
I am haveing a tough time with this personally.
Its pretty easy to find someone these days. And why through “the evil” blogs ? I was a lurker for years but then someone who met me at a celebration years ago got ahold of me through a motorcycle forum. Its not to hard. No big announcement………….
August 11th, 2011 at 10:39 pm
As soon as I get out of this computer chair, I’m going down on my knees to thank the Lord in Heaven for the work of Holy Spirit in Greg’s heart. Thank you God! Thank you Greg!
August 11th, 2011 at 10:46 pm
You’re kidding, right? You guys DID read the good samaritan & all those other things Jesus talked about?
If these people cared (other than damage control), they would contact the families involved directly. (They KNOW their names.) And they’d do it without making them SIGN anything.
August 11th, 2011 at 10:49 pm
I’d insist on a stenographer, videography, camcording, tape-recording, witnesses, and a written record if contact was made. Given a stated interest in the reports, documenting any meeting is essential. From what has been on offer for a long time? Justified distrust. Let the CLC Pastor be willing to be recorded, if any story is told.
I’d recommend putting that on the table--a public recording. Get his reaction.
This is where Brent Detwiler has it on CJ. Brent’s willing to meet with mediators, but Brent wants written records and wants those records to be open to the public. Instead, CJ retreated to the hills and he’s not coming back to CLC any time soon.
August 11th, 2011 at 10:51 pm
Yellow is a Happy Color,
If I’m reading that right, Greg is asking permission to contact them. He is just asking them to let Kris know if they are willing to talk with him.
August 11th, 2011 at 10:55 pm
I’m sorry. When CLC tells me:
“But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him.”
If we are talking about a child molester like Mr. A. who repeatedly abused a child over 3 years, and
If Mr. A. is foot loose and fancy free at CLC, and
If I have young children that I bring every week to CLC,
…..then Mr. A, and this whole situation DOES have SIGNIFICANT INFLUENCE on my life.
And secondly, when CLC tells me …..
“Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it.”
I simply don’t believe it. You know, I read a nice book a while back called DO HARD THINGS. Those sharp, bright teens inspired me to believe that I could do hard things, and that I shouldn’t listen to people who tell me that I “can probably do nothing about it.”
Thirdly, CLC tells me ….
“So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another…..”
Responsibility? I am a mother. You better believe I have a responsibility. I don’t want my children, or anyone else’s to be around Mr. A. God’s Holy Spirit is living inside of me and will help me in any and every difficult situation, including this one. :barf:
August 11th, 2011 at 10:57 pm
Greg, I do appreciate your words, or perhaps your desire to “do what is right”. I have been in email contact with another young man, who I do believe in his desire to bring unity in Christ and open honesty with his pastors. I do not know that with you, but I will tell you what I wrote to this young man:
“It struck me that while I have forgiven men for the situation I went through, I do not trust any of them. I haven’t had to-I am not around them, and my trust is in God. I seriously believe from (ExClcer’s) experiences with them that an “apology” would not be sincere, but more like a formality-something to make them feel better, or “absolved”. Their absolution is between themselves and God. I do not need their apology, and they do not need my absolution. I do hope whatever is necessary does happen in their hearts and in their lives, to ensure not another case of child abuse goes KNOWINGLY unreported, and mishandled. Yet, I realize all of this hurts God Himself just as much, even more, than it does me! It is up to each person to reconcile with God as they in their heart are willing-I don’t feel the need to be part of it-God can handle that part. It is up to me to forgive in my heart. Now, I do have to consider, having read how they have knowingly covered things up, how involved I should become, to stand up for those children and parents who are told to not report such crimes. That should never have happened-ever! It was not “my story”-it was every story after mine! Was that because they “learned” from the experience with my family that by bringing it out into the open, it cost too much in legal fees? Is that why they “covered up” every instance after that? I don’t know, and probably will never know, but God DOES know, and THAT is between each person and God, for ultimately He will judge them all.
Perhaps God can use you to bring a change in the hearts of those at SGM that need it, but I don’t think I need to be involved for that to happen. As far as “counseling” for me, as possibly the same for many other “victims”, it is not available. I have no insurance, there is nothing. But, I am not complaining, mind you, for I think God Himself is the greatest Counselor of all! He has taken me through much more than you could know – we all do have our story-but, with God, He is patient..He doesn’t expect to “solve” all my issues within a frame of 6 months of hourly appointments every week..He is with me right when it hurts, nudging me every day, gently guiding me to a higher place of understanding and forgiveness. I believe He can do that for anyone-I am no one special-but some people have not learned to look to Him, and listen to His voice as I have. Maybe that is another benefit of a hard life. I am grateful for it.
I know a lot of pain was expressed in my email last night. I probably should have waited to send it. Not because I believe differently, but it was late at night, and I will admit I have lost some sleep, staying up late reading these blogs, and things always feel worse on little sleep. The disappointment, the shock, and the horror are still there, though. That “men of God” would actually counsel someone to commit a felony, knowing it was such..I am still in shock-it is just so sad.
As far as you trying to make sure my family is “sought out for forgiveness” goes, %&****, it seems to me, while that may be a goal you would like to have happen, that is something you cannot force. “Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks”.
When the hearts of men are changed, you will not need to try to make anything happen-nothing would be able hold them back from doing what is right!
Until that point, all it would be is “a formality”-a bunch of words that they would selfishly be hoping could make something easier on them. I do believe it would be important to put some parameters in place for situations to be brought to light in the future. I think you have a good idea about identifying trained people to address issues like this. Obviously, God is doing something there. My one suggestion in your search is to not go with anyone who encourages any kind of secrecy, but to find one who is willing to educate, for with knowledge comes understanding, and understanding brings healing. I hope you can make a difference, if nothing else, shed enough light on things that other victims may feel free enough to share and receive healing. “
Those are my thought for now, Greg. I will pray about any more involvement, because, as I have said in this letter, for me it is not about the absolution for pastors, it is about making things better to prevent more victims.
5yearsin PDI-Thank you! I love that Scripture, but am not familiar with it-do you have a reference for it? I will read/speak it daily! I want to make a difference in the lives of women and children who have been abused. I want to help them learn to not just survive, but to overcome! I see this all as my training.Please dont anyone take that as in any way minimizing the pain my children have gone through-I would rather they never have experienced any of that-ever. It is the biggest heartbreak of my life, and the darkest years I have lived through.I hesitate to be involved in more with them-one reason I have hesitated to post too much here.
I will pray about it, Greg. I will be honest enough to tell you I dont know you, I dont trust you, and your words may be genuine, but I dont know that. Perhaps it is god you must speak to first, and let Him put it on my heart. or maybe it is everyone else you need to speak to. Or, as “Happy” said, maybe it is just for you to pray right now, that God changes the hearts of the men who actually were directly involved?
Those are questions I have-I dont have the answers. I think it is something we all need to pray about. Always a good thing-to pray.
August 11th, 2011 at 11:00 pm
Happy Mom, thanks for the clarification. I am hot and bothered and missed that detail. :)
August 11th, 2011 at 11:02 pm
Longingforheaven@#6, you blockquoted from somewhere. But, what’s the source? Or URL?
Here’s the quote:
“The decision of whether or not to read critical comments in Brent’s documents or the blogs takes careful thought and prayer. One helpful way to process the issue is to think about your differing responsibilities. A simple way to sum this up is: Be tough on yourself, concerned for those closest to you, and protective of others.”
The whole thing is “turn the brain off.” Who posted it?
August 11th, 2011 at 11:16 pm
Yellow is a Happy Color,
Believe me, I understand “hot and bothered” been there quite a bit myself lately. :)
August 11th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
Everything I knew about greg somerville, he was good man
That said, if you meet with these people, exclcer, do not go alone, do not let them gang up on you (only meet with one at a time) and I agree with donald, bring witnesses or representation and record the meeting. In maryland you must have their permission to record or you are breaking the law.
August 11th, 2011 at 11:20 pm
ExCLCer’s Mom, thank you for joining in the conversation and sharing your story. You must be proud of exCLCer — she’s so brave, resilient, and smart. I’m glad to know that you found help outside CLC — as I did as well — and even more glad to hear that you were able to pull your family together again.
Yellow is a Happy Color, :good post #11. I was so sick and angry when I discovered that my beautiful girlie had been at parties and functions with Mr. A — and sent queries to the other adult in the band — who tells me I need to hear the other side of the story, that it really wasn’t that bad, that exCLCer’s story was riddled with error (using a typical nitpicking focus on twigs — not even the trees, let alone the whole stinking forest.)
Greg, thank you for coming here and reading the stories — and emailing Kris. I remember when you and your little family first came to CLC — and watching you all grow over the years, in number and in stature. I continue to pray for CLC — there are so many people I love still there — what a summer it has been.
August 11th, 2011 at 11:22 pm
I also recommended to Greg (and the other pastors) that they post a similar message on the CLC blog. We will see if that happens.
August 11th, 2011 at 11:24 pm
Dear ExCLC,mom,and others who have been so hurt,
When I sinned grievously against someone very close to me, I was forgiven by them and by my Savior-for which I am eternally grateful- but I didn’t earn back the trust and I have reaped because of my sin. I will probably never be fully trusted by this person and deservedly so. I understand perfectly that you cannot trust the pastoral team; they are not trustworthy. And yet, mom, you are filled with a forgiveness and confidence in Christ that is stunning. God can still work through this mess so that hopefully, from here forward, fewer precious children will be abused.
August 11th, 2011 at 11:27 pm
Mr. Somerville, I hope that as your heart is pierced for exCLCer and her family that you will cry out to God and invite the conviction of the Holy Spirit to give you NO peace until you have reconciled with every one of those that you have failed to care for over the 14 years. Just as we, as parents become aware of our mistakes over time, you have the privilege and responsibility of caring for God’s people and I pray that you will really open your heart and mind to God’s bringing people to mind so that you can humbly bring your care to any and everyone who was skipped over or ignored, for whatever reason… and if you do, you will exalt the Lord as you minister, I’m sure of it!
I remember John Loftness being mentioned in the last days of Noel’s Story. Has he also been saddened at these stories yet? Is he still one of those pastors you signed on behalf of?
August 11th, 2011 at 11:36 pm
ExCLCer’s Mom,
Thank you for what you shared in #13, there is so much wisdom in that comment.
This one really struck me:
“When the hearts of men are changed, you will not need to try to make anything happen-nothing would be able hold them back from doing what is right! Until that point, all it would be is “a formality”-a bunch of words that they would selfishly be hoping could make something easier on them.”
Amen and Amen!
Praying for you and your family.
August 11th, 2011 at 11:36 pm
Greg, part of a valid apology might include publicly identifying the molesters in question, particularly if they are in CLC (or whatever SGM church).
You owe it to victims and their families to do your part to make sure that it doesn’t happen to anyone else in our church. ExCkcers Mom said this as well.
Greg, there is someone here on the blogs whose father had commited similar crimes against children. Her church was very healthy and open about it. They had meetings about it and informed everyone that this man was in their midst. The man was truly sorry and submitted himself to this public proces--a real show of humility and repentance from the perpetrator. He wanted everyone to know the truth about what he’d done so it wouldn’t happen again.
All this to say, you may want to find out about other churches who really took the effort to show they were seriously on the side of the victims and preventing future incidents. It’s got to be more than tears and words, although that’s part of it too.
I’ll try not to be so hot and bothered. :) Maybe some mint chocolate chip ice cream would help…..
August 11th, 2011 at 11:37 pm
Acme (#19) Thank you for your encouragement! I am proud of my daughter-very much!I could almost laugh at what your were told about “hearing the other side of the story” if that were not so sick of them to say! What “Other side” of the story should you hear? The police report that told the disgusting details, and a story of an 11 yr old girl who went to bed afraid every night in her home home, and even tried once to kill herself due to this man’s actions? is that the other side they thought you should hear? yeah, I bet it wasn’t either. They really dont want to “go there” with me, because I have copies of almost every document concerning that matter! I have moved on in my life, and have left that man in the hands of God, but if I know of another child at risk that I could prevent them from going through what my daughter went through, you bet I will speak up and do whatever it takes! I am not certain, because I have only recently heard about this band, but I think his lawyer is a member? If so, the Judge set him straight in court once already! Yet, in pretty much every instance I have encountered in life, anyone who is truly repentant does not minimize the trauma of their victim, rather use the victims feelings to recognize the severity of their actions. from my understanding, this is something absent with Child Molesters..I suppose that is why me or my family have never seen any appropriate remorse form the perpetrator there either. I dont know where his friend is coming from. But, you are right to stand up and protect your child! Nothing is more important that doing that!
August 11th, 2011 at 11:41 pm
@NLR -- In response to your post,
“I had run into some ex-SGMers at some time or antoher during my time there. I dont know why they left CLC or another SGM church, but if it was for pastoral abuse and issues with abuse and authoritarianism in that church, then I feel sorry for them. Because their abuser has now found refuge where they have. How ridiculous and disturbing is that.”
I have thought and prayed about this, since I do fit your category. I hope that I would be a reminder to CJ that His grace is sufficient. The same Lord who met me in my time of need can meet him in his time. I really do mean that.
August 11th, 2011 at 11:47 pm
And Acme, it took a lot of courage for you to talk to Mr. A’s band partner.
Where is it in Scripture about calling things out of darkness and bringing them into the light? That’s what you did.
And ExClcer’s Mom, you have such a grace about you. You come across as truly wise, and it doesn’t seem like bitterness consumes your life. This is evidence of the Holy Spirit in you, for sure!
There are some amazing and godly women on this site!!!!! You are an example to me.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:03 am
PS. Mom, My husband and I have sons and no daughters and we can’t comprehend what you and your children have gone through. Yet you have come out so strong and with all the children remaining close to each other. I hope and pray that God is using your story in a mighty way to bring Himself glory, to bring true repentance, and to save precious children.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:11 am
West Coast (#21)-Thank you-I’m glad to know you understand! Forgiveness and trust are two entirely different things!
Defended (#22)-My thoughts exactly!
Happy Mom (#23)- Thank you!
One thing I should mention; When sin, or anything other lie for that matter, is covered up for a given time, it grows-it becomes more complicated. Only God knows the proper way out of this one. Mr. A has other children. Yes, I do believe they should know to protect their children in the future, but I also hate to see more people hurt in this situation. Exposing Mr. A will surely cause embarrassment to his daughters..I hate to see that. Yet, (I am thinking this through as I type-kind of dangerous)..On the other hand, I can remember when one of my daughters told Gary Ricucci’s daughter (they were in school together) about “good touch/bad touch”, and how that was why her daddy had to leave home..Gary called me to tell me that I needed to instruct my daughter (then she was around 7 or 8 years old)to refrain from telling anyone such things. I told him that I had recently explained things to her, and that to tell her to “not tell anyone” would only make her feel shamed, and there was no shame to be had except by the perpetrator! That would be the same in this instance as well. Mr. A’s daughters should be made to feel no shame whatsoever, just acceptance for the person they each have become. Had tings been appropriately dealt with 20 years ago, this would not be so complicated. If Mr. A did not try to minimize his crime, and recognize that no healthy adult would want a child around him-ESPECIALLY FOR OVERNIGHT CAMPING TRIPS- this wouldn’t be so complicated. Yet, complications are not a good reason to risk another child. What parent would not want to know such a history? On the other hand, I will admit, I trust no one anymore when it come to the safety of my children. I cannot even tell you if I think that is wisdom or fear, because it just is, and I will not consider anything different. I dont want to see his daughters hurt, But, I am not the one who committed such a crime. It is the crime, the sin that causes all of the pain..
August 12th, 2011 at 12:27 am
Happy, and West Coast, once again, thank you for your kind words. God is Good. I do not choose to live my life with bitterness. I try to focus on what is good and true. (Well, my family and I also like to focus on what is funny as well, but that is not exactly applicable here ) Love does cover a multitude of sins. I have failed my children in many ways, but never intentionally-they know that. I love them to the deepest depths of the sea-the farthest reaches of the sky, and all that is within me-they are my reason for living. I know there is nothing wrong with that, because God gave them to me, and wants me to love them so! I thank Him for that! I tell people everyday, that when I wake up , and I can see, I can hear, I can smell my coffee brewing, and get out of bed with two feet..even if I work until the day I die-the fact that I CAN work-that I have 13 healthy children, whose future is still before them-I am the most blessed woman on the face of the earth! I never forget that every day! Yes, I will bring up sad or ugly things, but for the sake of change. I do hope to see God Ordained changes come to CLC/SGM, or whatever they end up-just so long as the hearts of men change. Just so long as children are taught not to become victims, and are encouraged to speak up and not feel shame. I do so hope for a change to come!
August 12th, 2011 at 12:27 am
This guy sounds so obnoxiously arrogant -- “the other side of the story”. What on earth is wrong with him?? He sounds like he is enabling Mr. A in his pervertedness -- any lawyer worthy of the name would advise this guy not to have a BAND with CHILDREN in it that go on OVERNIGHT camping trips!!! Are they NUTS or what??
exCLCer’s Mom -- I can only echo what others have said -- you have so much wisdom, thank you for being there for all the children.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:30 am
Thank you, Ellie. I do agree.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:39 am
I am a full skeptic and critic of SGM and SGM leadership, and my personal story with my family (if shared) would give me full credibility that I am not never defensive of nor tolerant of SGM or SGM practices; but I must confess that I am saddened by the choir of attacking voices, speaking as though this pronouncedly thoughtful and gracious email from Mr. Somerville is unlikely to be sincere.
I am very grateful that the times that I myself have expressed repentance, sadness, and initiative to help -- that I was received with joy and eagerness by those who deserved my repentance. Don’t say that repentance isn’t genuine if circumstances put people in a corner -- or few of our testimonies of how the Holy Spirit cornered our souls would still hold weight.
I realize that full trust requires proven new patterns of behavior, but I sure hope that the times I might need to write a letter like Greg has written -- it is received with warmth and appreciation. I am with JIm -- this is a historic and admirable moment (that requires sincere follow-through) that should provoke gracious appreciation, not responses that sound like a series of “Ya, right! Like you really mean that.”
I repeat, if you knew my own story, you would not dare tell me that I only am saying this because I have not been sufficiently hurt by SGM and its leaders.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:41 am
Thank the LORD that Mr. Somerville wants to pursue this matter. I know that it is very difficult to trust at this point in time. Forgiveness is the easy part — trust must be earned, and it takes time, LOTS of time to re-establish trust. It could be that you will never need to re-establish trust with these pastors on a personal level, but that may not be the issue here.
I realize that many people do not trust even this communication; that many will be going over it with a fine tooth comb, and may find fault with the way it has been delivered, or presented, or anything else — and that’s understandable. Those who’ve been burned don’t want to go near a match book ever again.
Still — I am blessed, encouraged, and hopeful and I have faith that GOD is bigger than this whole mess, and that HE is orchestrating events, tuning our hearts, and preparing our minds for some kind of closure or resolution or restoration or all of the above — I don’t know — but I am so grateful that there is finally and attempt at DIALOGUE!
The CLC pastors have had the courage to take a stand that opposes the policies the SGM apostles put in place against acknowledging blogs, sins, complaints. THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS. You have restored a tiny smidgen of hope within me that perhaps this is not a lost cause, and that there ARE men in SGM with integrity, consciences, and guys that are listening to the Holy Spirit rather than an earthly leader.
Praise God, from whom all blessings flow. To all who have suffered — may God bless you, heal you, empower you, protect you, and cover this multitude of sins with His perfect love.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:45 am
I am greatly encouraged by Greg’s email. I agree with Jim that this is a huge step for CLC -- one I applaud. I pray for Exclcer and mom: my heart goes out to your family….love and hugs.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:56 am
In Adullam’s Cave, I can agree with you somewhat. I do really appreciate GS’s email, and his attempt to rectify things. I dont know from personal experience (I have only been reading these blogs for a couple of weeks maybe), but I understand this to be “historic”, and can appreciate that as well. However, Greg is NOT any person who was involved with the situation with my family in particular, so I dont understand his stance as being even as meaningful as others on this blog who were actually part of CLC when things happened to my family. In other words, for someone to say, “I remember, but I was not aware of all involved-I am so sorry I did not do more”, when they were present and could have made a difference (if they had known), is a big difference from; ” In my 14 years of pastoral ministry at Covenant Life Church, I have so often failed to love and care for God’s people the way I should. If it weren’t for the grace of our Lord Jesus and the forgiveness of the saints, this pastor would not have the faith to keep caring for God’s precious church. Stories like yours cause me to cry out for more of God’s Spirit, more of God’s heart. I do not want to fail his children in their time of deepest need! ”
Do you see where I get my hesitancy? One is speaking directly to a personal involvement with the situation, and the other is a very general statement. Is it that Gary and John Loftness are no longer involved in the CLC ministry that Greg is taking over, and speaking for the church? Or, is it that Gary and John Loftness have no change of heart, and…. I dont know what else??? That is why I must pray about it. I am not trying to be difficult, it is just that I dont have a lot of time to waste. I just dont, that is all there is! Greg may have totally pure intentions-I just dont understand the purpose of a meeting. God can speak to me, and change my heart, but that will be the only reason I would show up for such a meeting! I am not at all about pleasing men anymore-I seek to please God! I make no apologies about that either! :D
August 12th, 2011 at 12:58 am
@Nickname.. :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 1:04 am
I really do understand “Mom” and I have no intention of diminishing the need for folks like you to have a lot of proven action before there will be real trust.
I also understand that there are a whole lot of people that need to write letters like this much more than Greg needs to.
It really is just a beginning, but I think there will be plenty to continue to be skeptical of, without brushing aside the few thoughtful things that start to happen.
Please know I mean no insensitivity to your very real ad longterm hurt.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:11 am
In Adullam’s Cave
You are right-it is a beginning. It still so makes me want to cry, yet also feels so good to have someone acknowledge the pain my family has been through, and the validation of why we do not trust. Thank you. With that, I must go to sleep.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:08 am
In Adullam’s Cave,
We are a part of a SGM church and have been for over 12 years. I am encouraged by the latest developments, but I know that sin has repercussions. I also know it can take a long time to admit one’s sin. And I know it takes a long time to earn trust again. I thank God through Jesus Christ that He is slow to anger and abounding in mercy and that He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:39 am
According to the CLC website Gary turned 30 in August of 77 which means he turns 64 this month. Greg graduated college in 85 which puts him about 46-48. Just young enough to be his son. If the pastors at CLC have had discussions about this before Greg reached out I’m trying to imagine what the meeting sounded like. Greg saying: Gary!!! You told her her poverty was self induced!! What the #$%^&*(#@! were you thinking? And we just sat there and watched this family be pulled apart!! We had what, at least 700 members at that time and we couldn’t recruit enough families to help keep them together? What, we didn’t have enough guest rooms out of 700 members??
ExCLCer went to school with my son TJ so I was there and I knew nothing. My nephew had just joined the navy so I had an empty room somebody could have stayed in. My (now ex-wife)still lives in the house we had on Weller Rd. 2 miles from the Frost Center where the school was at the time. MacGruder HS was packed every Sunday yet very few knew what was happening.
We are called to bear one another’s burdens. And Jesus prayed that the world would know that we know Him by the way we love one another. Dropping the ball on this is doesn’t come close to describing it. Greg wants a meeting to learn. Gimme a break. This is a no-brainer. Gary was in his early 40s, he should have had more sense than that. I can understand Greg being brokenhearted but was he outraged enough to get in Gary’s face in the hall? John is over at Solid Rock in College Park so no chance meetings in the hallways at CLC. My thoughts are an apology without an offer of restitution of at least seven figures is not worth much. Conversation alone is just hot air.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:16 am
Speaking of Gary, isn’t there a bit of cause for concern that on the CLC website it says his title at SGM is Director of Student Care? More specifically, because it says his responsibilities include “Under the direction of Jeff Purswell, Dean of the Pastors College, Gary is responsible for helping students to watch their lives as well as their doctrine (1 Timothy 4:16). He regularly meets with students, oversees special events, and provides pastoral counsel and care.” If Gary has repented of how he handled the situation with ExClcer’s Mom’s family and sought their forgiveness that’s one thing, but that certainly doesn’t seem to be the case. Given that, shouldn’t there be a little concern that he’s guiding and teaching all the incoming “pastors”?
August 12th, 2011 at 5:43 am
I’m also wondering if the independent panel that’s in the process of evaluating CJ’s fitness to be a pastor will look at the sexual abuse cases that happened at CLC while he was the senior pastor, or if they’re just looking exclusively at Brent’s documents. I’m speaking out of turn a bit because maybe the sexual abuse cases are in Brent’s documents, I don’t know. While it doesn’t appear that CJ was directly involved at the time (I could be wrong), he was the senior pastor, so certainly he must have known what was going on and how things were being handled. It seems to me that some scrutiny is warranted there as well in terms of fitness for pastoral ministry.
August 12th, 2011 at 6:08 am
Greg,
Possibly a better place to start would be to ask John and Gary to come forward with a written, public confession of what they see they did wrong. Let’s drop the SGM-speak and see some straight talk from those men. We all make mistakes. How about some honesty -- or do they really feel that everything they did was correct? Forget talking to the lawyers. Forget worrying about lawsuits. The first step should come from then. While I am glad to see an SGM pastor make a move towards them, you must see their lack of trust. This has been going on for years. They have written letters for years. So you really expect them to trust you when you walk up to the line and ask them to step across? You (the CLC pastors) can do better!
August 12th, 2011 at 6:46 am
If this guy were real, as soon as he read exCLCers story he would have gone into Ricuccis &Loftness’ office and either balled up his fist and punched them each square in the jaw or (if he were being extremely merciful), pulled them up by their collars and told them they he was personally driving them to Mom’s house so they could grovel at her feet and admit clearly to every freaking wrong they had done to destroy her family.
THEN and ONLY THEN would he have ANY right to write this letter!
Look, Buddy, take care of confronting (in a very real way) those two men before you come looking to make nice. I have no idea when you lost your masculinity but it is time to go find it again.DO RIGHT, then come asking for help.
August 12th, 2011 at 6:46 am
ExCLCer’s Mom,
I don’t think you need to explain your hesitancy to anyone. Your caution is wise and earned, most likely through years and years of disappointment of the leadership to do the right thing and protect children. We had CJ get involved in our issue only to have him completely bail on us and just last summer K. Maresco called our home to tell us he was involved in our story and watching and asked us to keep him in the loop of things, he too, completely bailed on us and like CJ, continued to ignore all emails we sent them.
You said something in your earlier comment, #28, that could very well be the banner statement for our situation:
“When sin, or anything other lie for that matter, is covered up for a given time, it grows-it becomes more complicated. Only God knows the proper way out of this one.”
God bless you and thank you again for speaking up on behalf of children. Nothing in my life has shocked me more than to witness grown men act like complete cowards in the face of child abuse.
August 12th, 2011 at 6:55 am
My experience with Gary Ricucci was that he was very a very caring person when caring for you was part of his “job”. As soon as our family fell out of favor with CLC because of a disagreement on policy and doctrine, that caring disappeared. There was no room on his “daytimer” anymore for the “lost sheep”. My wife hit the nail on the head when she made the observation that these guys are not true shepherds in that they could care less about the one who goes astray. They write that one off so that they can continue to control the other ninety nine.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:02 am
Greg was the principle at Covenant Life School. While in that position he advocated “Nazi like tactics” in their educational system (he actually used those words and/or similar ones… my sources are previous teaches and students). Until CLC “pastors” admit to using such communication tactics, specifically and publicly, and why this was wrong I would not trust that they have changed in their communication.
Greg is now a “Family Life Pastor.” There are families in CLC currently deciding if they want to stay based on recent revelations. Add to that all these sexual abuse stories they are now becoming aware of via “the blogs.” How can CLC address this? Send a “Family Life Pastor” to provide some assurances by going straight to the source of the problem.
This letter seems like a CYI and damage control. How better to avoid further attrition (i.e., lost revenue from families leaving)? Maybe appear humble and contrite, ready to learn from those families previously damaged/hurt by the system they created and propagated?
Past behaviour is the best indicator of future behaviour. Simply stating, “I have so often failed to love and care for God’s people the way I should” is really easy to do. But until they admit specifically and publicly their past failures then who’s to say they don’t continue doing the same thing in the future?
How did you fail, Greg? How has the system failed the people, specifically? How is this letter, and the disposition expressed in it, not more propaganda to further your cause?
August 12th, 2011 at 7:13 am
Exclcer Mom I am astound by your grace and your heart of forgiveness in the face of your experience with those pastor.
Even though I believe that Greg is a really nice guy and probably is even genuine in most of his sentiments, I don’t get this tactic (??) of sending out the Mr. Nice pastor (like Josh for CJ at the meetings) while Gary and John sit back waiting to see how thing unfold.
I remember a while back that Kenneth Maresco shared how he needed to be counseled by his several pastor because he was struggling with anger towards some doctor who messed up something when his son an injury. Would to God, that in all those years that your daughter was writing her letters to them that they would have taken even one meeting to talk about anger towards the perp for the lasting damage that sexual abuse does. It is not some superficial fracture that heals. I hear one of Gary’s son has a blog of his own defending uncle CJ, how will he defend his own Dad’s actions?
Exclcer mom for all my anger at those who would cover up and side with the perps, I too find my own heart wanting to believe these men and their soft sweet words. But I do believe that the Holy spirit has definitely given you much wisdom and will guide you through even this. I am praying for your family.
DPV that except was taken from the members portions of the clc blog. I am sorry but I had to post it because I am sick of this glasnos on the outside and contradictory internal reality that members still are being called to live by. It makes my head hurt. And I am frankly exhausted by it.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:24 am
This is what Greg said:
“I realize you don’t have much confidence in the pastors of Covenant Life Church right now, and I can understand that. But would you be willing to talk with me about your experience?
Kris has my e-mail address — please let her know if you are willing for me to contact you about this.”
This seems like a reasonable first step. Greg wants to speak with the injured parties himself before moving forward.
We can all armchair quarterback this deal and demand that SGM sends a million dollars to everyone who tells their story on a blog, or demand that some kicks someone else in the teeth before they reach out to those who post their stories. Great. “I tried to reach out to them on their forum, and look at the nutjob responses. Let’s just forget the bloggers.”
Is that what we want? When SGM reaches out to one of us on one of our forums, let’s just slam the door in their face. Good thinking. I’ll fly to Maryland to sit in on the meetings to ensure the BS is not brought to the table. What will you do? B***h and moan on a blog because you disagree with the manner in which THEY HAVE REACHED OUT TO ONE OF US?
August 12th, 2011 at 7:26 am
elCLCer’s mom,
You have been on my heart since exCLCer came on the blog and told her story. I still struggle with my perception about the whole situation. I struggle to articulate my feelings about the the causes and ramifications of all that your family suffered. The absolute betrayal at the hands of the perpetrator was horrible. But the response of the pastors in CLC is staggering. How could they have been so callous?
It wasn’t just John Loftness and Gary Riccuci. I am pretty sure all the elders knew what was going on. Certainly the school teachers and principal (Bob S) knew. CJ knew. Could they not relate to the pain of a wife and mother whose world had been shattered? Whose marriage was ending? Whose child was betrayed and hurt at the hands of someone who represented a father? The pain of trusting and entrusting precious daughters to the man who vowed to love and care for you all the days of your life only to have that man abuse that trust and harm your daughter?
I can’t imagine how your child suffered. I try to imagine how you suffered. It hurts trying to put myself in your shoes for even a moment. exCLCer expressed a little of the pain she went through when she believed that someone would eventually come and take her from the facilities/group homes. I am sure they all suffered.
Where was the church? Where was the “the body of Christ?” I would ask Greg S. to search his heart. What kind of place is this? How could the “church” turn it’s back on the most vulnerable in the midst? What happened didn’t happen in a vacuum. The environment the leaders created allowed this to happen. They blamed your poverty and the loss of your children and home on you????? How could any of the leaders who knew sit by and allow your children to be taken from you? Why, why, why, did they feel the need to uphold the person who caused so much pain while you and your children suffered? Am I missing something???? Was there not one leader who could see straight????
Ex 22:22 You shall not mistreat any widow or fatherless child.
Job 22:9 And you sent widows away empty-handed and broke the strength of the fatherless.
James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit (care for) orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:29 am
@Breeezey, you know I always chalked things up before to us (my self and the pastors) being “young and ignorant”..I did not realize that Gary was 8 years old than I was! I was only 31 when everything happened in my family. Gary was almost 40-so much for the excuse of youth!
To all here, it does feel so good to be able to express suspicion and hesitancy and disappointment without getting beat up for it! Thank you all! :D
I am working on a separate writing- a chronicle, so to speak, (because it is so long). I actually asked for counseling long before the abuse happened with my daughter. I am still responsible for my actions, as well as my wrong choices. No one “forced my hand” to put me in that arraignment, or to even stay in that marriage-I chose to listen to men instead of listen to God speaking to me in my heart. However, it does seem that when someone chooses to take the title of “pastor”, just like accepting the title of “parent”, one then also accepts the responsibility to educate ones self on being prepared for all that entails. As a parent, I sought to learn about nutrition before my child was even born; I read about potty training while my child was still in diapers; I researched everything I could find on how to help my child develop physically, emotionally, and spiritually ahead of their need. It was “my job” to be prepared before the need arose. I would think that if I was going to take on the title as “pastor”, I would do the same. We live in a world full of sin-shouldn’t a pastor prepare to deal with sex abuse even before it happens? If a person in a pastor’s congregation say they feel something is seriously amiss, and has been since before they were even married (under same leadership), that a pastor should say, “We will seek and pray until we get to the bottom of this” ? Exactly what IS taught at a pastor’s college, if not these things? Gary one time said to me, “You have obviously given more thought and prayer to this situation than I have. To be honest, I can only think about it a little bit, because it makes me sick”. (This was at the very, very beginning of discovery) I responded to him with, “It sickens me as well, but I cannot even considering setting it aside, because for 3 years my little girl had to LIVE IT. I HAVE to be able to think about,no matter how ugly it is, because my child had to live through it!” I knew that was my responsibility as a Mother, but shouldn’t that also be a responsibility as a pastor? Have we yet heard of a situation where sex abuse, or child abuse was handled by an SGM pastor appropriately yet? I think that would be when I would gain some confidence in a change, or even knowing that the pastors openly address and speak to sex abuse in such a way that would allow openness from any other victims who have not yet come forward…just thoughts-I am still praying..
August 12th, 2011 at 7:30 am
@Longinforheaven@#48 and #6
Your block quote, as understood, is from a CLC blog? Glad you posted it. The post looks like a wave-off from reading the Detwiler documents and/or other sources, e.g. the blogs. I’ll repost it for ease:
“Remember Your Relational Responsibilities
The decision of whether or not to read critical comments in Brent’s documents or the blogs takes careful thought and prayer. One helpful way to process the issue is to think about your differing responsibilities. A simple way to sum this up is: Be tough on yourself, concerned for those closest to you, and protective of others.
The person for whom you are most responsible before the Lord is yourself. Therefore, if someone says something critical about you, it’s generally wise to ask for God’s grace to hear them out and thoroughly examine their input. If you doubt your own judgment or objectivity, you might even want to bring in a third person to hear the criticism against you and help you to process it. The same would be generally true if a report concerns someone for whom you have some responsibility (spouse, child, employee, or even a close friend). If the report contains some truth, it may be necessary for you to take action to ensure that the person you are responsible for faces those truths and deals with them biblically. The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.
“But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.”
August 12th, 2011 at 7:31 am
Yep…I’m with Jim on this one. This is huge that Greg took this step and I, for one, am grateful for it.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:34 am
#46 your wife was right on-read the old sermon “10 Shekels and a Shirt” by Paris Reidhead.
exCLEer’smom, You are a very brave, wise woman and I admire you for your tenacious care of your family over the years.
I don’t know if I would ever want to speak to these men again if I had gone through what you did. I think I would just shake the dust off of my sandals and move on. But that is just me. You don’t owe them anything.
These situations just reveal why older mature seasoned men and women should be the ones in leadership and not such young men who really have no life experience or wisdom from the school of hard knocks.
Men in their 40′s and 50′s should be the ones attending the pastor’s school not 20 somethings.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:40 am
:goodpost
I agree with you Jim. While I can COMPLETELY understand the suspicion people feel towards SGM, I never thought I’d see the day when something like that was posted, here of all places! Not because I didn’t think Kris or Guy would post it, but that a pastor would send it. I had hoped that pastors would start reaching out to the victims in such a public way, but I never expected it. It’s definitely a historical moment. And I totally didn’t expect his message to contain not a single, “we did the best we knew how” excuse. He sounds like he’s wanting to own this, and that’s great. I hope he gets the pastors who actually failed these people to come forward. They shouldn’t be hiding behind another pastor.
So I’ll just say to Greg, well done.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:43 am
@Jim -- :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 7:55 am
I tend to agree with Kerrin’s #47 -- The way I see it, once you’ve been beaten a few times, you have to question whether the stick in the hand of the guy coming toward you is an olive branch or a club.
The letter from Greg is so loaded with the typical SGM language. Why would anyone care how bad a sinner Greg is if he wasn’t involved in any of the issues at hand? Awww, look how proud Greg is of his humility. That’s touching.
I’ll put a lid on the rest of my snarkiness long enough to say this -- It does seem that the CLC pastors are making an unusual effort to go against the status quo and change things for the better. Whether the bleeding they want to stop is related to the pain of the wounded or the wallets of the walking will become evident in time, I’m sure.
And maybe I shouldn’t be too hard on Mr. Somerville. If he’s been wallowing in the SGM system for close to 15 years, he may truly be making a goodhearted attempt at reaching out. He may not know how to communicate like a normal person anymore. It may take time and deprogramming. Maybe there needs to be a PC graduate school with a class in English as a Second Language for SGM’ese speakers.
One more thought, though -- When Greg says he is communicating on behalf of the CLC pastors, is that supposed to include Mr. Ricucci? As I understand it, Ricucci works for/gets paid by SGM, but his picture still shows up on the CLC “Our Pastors” web page… For Mr. Ricucci not to come forward and address the issues related to specific instances of his own behavior, is just wrong. Maybe that too will come in time. I have no doubt that God is good.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:10 am
Jim and Guy, Do you understand why this was put up, at Greg’s request, as a post for all of the survivors to view and discuss, rather than having Kris send exCLCer and SGMnot the note privately? It is only addressed to them. Why the public notice?
August 12th, 2011 at 8:10 am
Folks: I just saw this post. We are hosting a HUGE Going Away Party for our son today (You’re all invited! LOL), so VERY BUSY! We will ponder on these things and respond over the weekend. Our response will be from my husband, daughter and myself.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:11 am
InAdullam’sCave, just to clarify one thing: You mentioned in #32 how it seems GS was being attacked for his letter..I just want to make sure you know that the statements by me (#31) and Ellie (#30) where in reference to another band member that Acme referred to (post#18), and not to GS. I responded to Greg’s letter initially, and said I would pray to see if God would direct me differently from how I feel initially. I do hope for change in CLC and the SGM churches, but that is between them and God. I agree, it is a big step Greg made, and am glad to see him commended for that. It was a big step for me to even post anything on here, because I have, as OldTimer (#54) has said, “shaken the dust from my sandals and moved on”. If I do anything at all, it will be because I feel God has spoken to me in my heart, through much prayer, and for no other reason would I meet with them. As I stated in a letter I wrote to another (#13), their absolution comes from God, not me. Yes, my family members, and many others were victims to a greater degree than some, but when a pastor fails in his job, does it not hurt the entire Body of Christ? Does it not hurt God Himself? I am not trying to ignore, or “bash” Greg, or anyone for that matter-I was simply clarifying some questions, and speaking gratitude to those who has understood. I do hope no one got anything different from my posts..
August 12th, 2011 at 8:19 am
@ Fried Fish (#15) :goodpost :clap All of it! After 20 years gone from CLC, I am still “accused” of speaking “SGM’ese” sometimes! LOL!
August 12th, 2011 at 8:25 am
@Rose #58: I would suspect (and would like to think) it was so that the initial communication was public and not “behind closed doors”. He easily could have sent it to Kris and said, “Please keep this private”, but I think that would send the wrong message. The events are public. The desire to make it right should be public too. And what better way than to seek them out on the very blogs that some SGM leaders have bashed?!
One of the biggest complaints against SGM is their lack of transparency and a “just trust us” kind of attitude. Josh seems to be eager to separate how CLC is doing things from how SGM is right now.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:35 am
I should have been clear that I was not addressing sgmnot, exCLCer, or ExClcer’s Mom. I think they should do what they think is right, and I would never fault them for whatever choice they made, nor would I try to influence them in any way.
What ticked me off (could you tell :D ) were the multitude of experts who seemed to be trying to influence the wounded parties, while pushing forward the “if you’re in sgm, you can’t possibly do anything right” agenda.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:36 am
ExCLCersMom #24:
:word :goodpost :clap
I’m saving that one.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:38 am
And I think that this initial contact, which is really a new paradigm, may also be public so that others will know they not excluded? A tacit acknowledgment that there must be (or at least may be) other stories yet untold? And may the Fairfax leadership among others be stirred in their consciences.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:41 am
@Kerrin said: “Greg was the principle at Covenant Life School. While in that position he advocated ‘Nazi like tactics’ in their educational system (he actually used those words and/or similar ones… my sources are previous teaches and students).”
There’s an fishy blend of confidence and uncertainty in that account: Greg recommended that school leaders act like Nazis. He ACTUALLY used THOSE WORDS. Or similar ones. That’s what I heard, at least.
When you lead your comment with a juicy bit of hearsay, then half-heartedly qualify your source, you know what readers will remember? The juicy bit. The Greg-Nazi connection. I know that most references to “gossip” and “slander” on this blog are spent shaking off those potential charges. But gossip and slander are indeed possible, and they are indeed bad.
Come on, @Kerrin, this is Veggie Tales kinda stuff.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:42 am
First sentence of my #65 should read “others will know they are not excluded.” English is my first language. Really. :)
August 12th, 2011 at 8:44 am
@ExCLCer’sMom… 5years in PDI wrote back at #2: May your mourning be turned to joy and God give back the years the locusts have eaten.
Then you wrote in #13 5yearsin PDI-Thank you! I love that Scripture, but am not familiar with it-do you have a reference for it? I will read/speak it daily!
It is actually not a scripture but a personal prayer taken from 2 scriptures. They are:
Jeremiah 31:13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
and Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
The context for the Jeremiah scripture is prophecy we are living in today. God says that he will bring the 10 tribes back after scattering them all over the earth. We are witnesses as He is doing that today.
The context for the Joel quote is applicable for our days too. Probably within about 15-20 years at the start of the Millenial Kingdom.
I hope this helps.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:46 am
@Whirlwind #64: I agree. We can oftentimes fail to leave our apology at “I was wrong and I’m sorry”. We can often try to save face in the process (I do that quite a bit, to my shame), which minimizes how it effected the victim. “I was wrong and I’m sorry. I really was doing the best I could, but I see blah blah blah blah, and you and blah blah blah.” Victims don’t want to hear all that.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:48 am
And CLC now has monies freed up from the salaries and benefits of two fulltime pastors. Why don’t they set up a retirement account for exCLCer Mom? She mentioned something in passing that made me believe she has no money for retirement. (Not surprising, in view of what she’s been through.)
August 12th, 2011 at 8:52 am
exCLCer’smom -- wow, just read your posts in this thread and the previous one. Wow -- so sorry for what you had to go through!!!! You have my respect for what you did -- a long, hard fight to get your family back! So sad that they had to be separated for so long, but wow, amazing that you where able to fight a well-funded machine that still, at the end, could not admit the dark, evil things done by your ex and the church.
As far as the post -- this is the first time that a letter like this has been posted on a blog. I have questions and concerns -- first they could have easily got the contact info for sgmnot and exclcer. Second, if you read the post closely, it seems to all about CYA, but time will tell the true intentions. Very similar to actions in a union avoidance plan that many companies have in place in case the unions try to get in -- get together and “talk” and let everyone know that management cares and can address your concerns without having to have a union vote.
Notice that the note doesn’t admit guilt and doesn’t apologize for what happen -- Greg just says he has failed in the past, but doesn’t say how he failed. He NEVER apologizes for what happened, in typical narcissistic response he turns it around to make it about his and sgm’s leadership’s grief. And he is doubly grieved that they are “disappointed” with the pastoral care they received. It’s just like when someone hurts you and they say “sorry you are hurt”.
As I have posted before, if sgm is serious about these evils that they have done, then it’s time for restitution. Restitution is a big part of standing up and admitting that you did something wrong.
For now, all I see is “We’re sorry you were hurt”
August 12th, 2011 at 8:52 am
ExClcer’s Mom,
Your posts are clear to me. You speak from a heart of grace and truth and wisdom. To me, I recognize your words as those from someone who has been healed and strengthened through your circumstances by the power of our Risen Lord. Yours are words from someone who now has the God-given ability to do what the Scriptures call us to do -- defend the weak, love justice and mercy and walk humbly with our God. I believe that God has molded you through all of this more and more into His image and He is obviously now desiring to use you to bring his mercy and justice to a broken world….for such a time as this. God bless you for your diligence as you sought to faithfully learn to hear and obey the Holy Spirit through these difficult years and not the voice of people….I too have learned this precious lesson after leaving my SGM church….as have many here. (You have all been such an encouragement to me.) God will continue to be faithful to you and guide you through this time. Stay strong in your belief that you will meet with Greg or others only if the Holy Spirit leads you to. I can hear in your words that your motive is pure in this -- for God’s glory and for the good of His people. I will continue to pray for your strength and God’s wisdom for you. I was completely blessed to read your words of grace and strength this morning.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:53 am
Abednigo and Phoenix, Thanks for your explanations. I was wondering if there was something in the technology that I was missing which would require the public posting. I’m not sure that the message that others are not excluded really comes across in a note address specifically to two individuals, but there are always limits in communications. I would be elated if I received such a communication, but my case is much less serious and involved and only happened one year ago, so the pastors involved could easily find me and leave it to me to go back to survivors and say, “It’s all good now,” or even just to say, “I was contacted, but not entirely happy with how the contact went.” The posting of the note as the blog post also doesn’t really work, if you don’t want everyone weighing in on it. It seems like it would have worked better just as one of the usual posts, though I suppose it might have gotten missed that way (not likely: as has been noted: it is historical, I suppose a CLC pastor deserves a blog post of his own, not just a comment).
August 12th, 2011 at 8:54 am
Phoenix wrote: And CLC now has monies freed up from the salaries and benefits of two fulltime pastors. Why don’t they set up a retirement account for exCLCer Mom? She mentioned something in passing that made me believe she has no money for retirement. (Not surprising, in view of what she’s been through.)
Me: Now that is what I am talking about -- RESTITUTION
August 12th, 2011 at 8:55 am
@Matt -- love to get back to your comments yesterday -- read them late last night and really interesting in engaging in a dialogue about your views on church polity, etc… Especially since some of what you expressed has been increasing @ CLC, but alas this is a super busy day and the recent developments from CLC, especially this letter from Greg is of superior importance.
@Jim #49 -- could have nuanced the word choice, but that is besides the point. You are spot on. To use your language, it has been said, and I agree too many Christians have the ‘spiritual gift’ of ‘B***hing’.
Guys/gals -- HOWEVER CLC is seeking to walk out repentance and right mistakes, they are seeking to do it. There is so much grace there. Who cares if Greg floats around some SGMese? And expressing his humility in the situation? Shall we not honor that? Shall we not be like the Lord? God gives grace to the humble. Did he come saying ‘I am glad that we are not like the pastors who sinned against you’ or did he come ‘beating his breast and say God have mercy on me for I am a sinner’? I think it is much closer to the latter.
Joshua and the other pastors are making HUGE strides in very short order. It is absolutely amazing to see how God is using this for good, and I can’t help but think of Joseph — what was meant for evil (not implying Brent was intending evil, but the sin that happened on both sides of that fence), God is using it for so much good. Yeah, so it may not be possible to go back and change the way the abuses were handled and in a perfect world millions of dollars could be given in restitution (would that really fix it?). So regardless of the outcome of this latest attempt of CLC to work through these issues, I hope if nothing else, the victims themselves will take comfort in knowing that one day they will face the Risen Savior and He will wipe the tears from their eyes. And sins committed will either be paid for by the blood of Christ or eternally in hell (depending on the repentance of the perp).
I, of course, really wish Brian and Mike’s pastoral leadership at CLC weren’t casualties in what was going on, but that seems to be now an unavoidable side effect in what is going on. But at this point CLC is making huge strides in a short amount of time, and they are doing what is humanly possible by the grace of God and not everyone is going to be on board, there or here, with everything and the way its done.
Please show the grace you’d like to receive on your own. Joshua has inherited a lot of former issues, and is absolutely seizing this as an opportunity to try to address them.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:02 am
To add one more thing to Jim and anSGMmember’s comments: People have (rightly) complained that pastors have turned their words on them because their presentation or wording wasn’t right and/or they didn’t use “Biblical language”, and that people weren’t allowed to just express their feelings any way they wanted to. But here we are getting stuck on their presentation or wording? I saw more of the big picture in his request. My mental paraphrase: “We really messed up. I’m grieved to hear what happened to you under our (lack of) care. I’d like to hear your story. Can we talk?” That’s fantastic. Even if the presentation isn’t to everyone’s liking.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:05 am
Just seeing this new post.
Um, sorry but who the he** is Greg? Better yet, who is “the pastors of covenant life” that he is writing on behalf of? Does this include CJ, Gary and John, or any pastors directly involved with my story?
With Greg not being directly involved (I presume -- I don’t know who he is), its interesting to read “the details are heartbreaking”, and “anguish these events have caused”, and “how disappointed you are with the pastoral care”, instead of “the decisions/judgments/action of the pastors are heartbreaking” or “anguish these pastors actions/words/decisions have caused” or “how disappointed WE also are with the pastoral care”.
Understand, this kind of wordage reeks of “sorry you felt that way”, NOT “sorry we were responsible for the wrong things we/they did”.
Validating how someone may feel is all good and well, but does nothing to validate to me that I/we are justified in feeling that way. I am presuming he has spoken to Gary and John (why wouldn’t he have?) and the wording of this letter just reiterates to me their need to word things so that there is no direct admission of personally doing something WRONG.
(ok I love analogies) It like if you heard your close friend punched another kid in the face (a younger vulnerable, trusting kid who looked up to you both), and you later went to that little kid that was punched, and said “I’m so sorry to see your lip still hurts…It really makes me sad to see your lip bleeding like that….I feel really heartbroken that your lip would be hurting and that YOU are disappointed with the kid who punched you”.
Ha. Wouldn’t it be better to say: “My friend should have never hit you, it was wrong, and I’m sorry they did that to you. I don’t stand for that kind of thing, and will speak out against it. I will tell my friend they were wrong and hope they will come to you and admit they should have never done that. You do have the right to be upset with him for hitting you and I am too”.??? Now THAT’S standing up for what’s right.
And I know, mom, you’re gonna pray on it and all….you KNOW how I feel about all that mess. For me, that’s like having one foot in their kool aid fun house. I don’t need a spiritual word to tell me what’s wrong is wrong, and that the only appropriate way to address it sincerely, is for the ones who have done wrong to stand up and say so unequivocally. And the only right thing to do if you’re an uninvolved party is to stand up and say what’s wrong is wrong, even if it’s your friend that did that wrong.
GARY, JOHN, ALL OTHERS WHO HAD A SAY IN THE DECISONS AT THE TIME — COME OUT AND ADMIT WHAT YOU DID WRONG! Don’t send forth some ambiguous party to offer “non-responsibility taking condolences”.
Greg, I do appreciate your effort. If in talking (and if you haven’t yet. by all means do) to Gary and John, you feel they did not do anything wrong, then we have nothing to talk about. If you did feel they did something wrong, then please be clear about that and don’t chalk it up to MY disappointment (implying maybe we expected too much) or details and events (implying it was beyond control). What’s unfortunate is that until involved or uninvolved parties see the actions done by these men as wrong, there will be little real change. A “policy” is only as good as the willingness of those who interpret and enforce it – policy has to be consistent with culture and values implemented from the top. I do hope your church puts some kind of protections in place to avoid any future incidents of abuse, and would express encouragement of the congregation to be aware, alert, and vigilant in protecting their children, and in the case of victims to be compassionate and loving and non-judgmental.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:08 am
Let My People Go,
Comment #72. :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 9:09 am
IMHO, the chorus of response has been a good mix of “Praise God, this is an historic first!” and “Woah, this smells like CYA” — as well as a variety of other reactions. I think we need to hear ALL the reactions — and more importantly the pastors do — especially after reading Brent’s documents with all the obfuscating “you’re so humble” and “evidences of grace” etc.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:11 am
OK… now we have proof the pastors at SGM and at least CLC read these blogs. I wonder: 1. how many others are lurking out there we don’t know about. and 2. curious how often the posts here and elsewhere are topics of their meetings. C’mon Greg, man up, tell us.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:14 am
@ExClcer; Really, really :goodpost :clap I was waiting to hear what you had to say-I knew it would be relevant, important, and really good.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:17 am
It is far too early to say if Jim is correct or Kerrin is correct.
A sociopath/con-man can utter the most sweet and silver tongued contrite expressions you ever heard to serve his own ends.
More is needed for proof of genuine repentance. It is really foolish to jump on the bandwagon, after watching SGM for 30 years, that this is genuine. Extremely foolish and nieve. Kerrin has shown himself to be astute.
It is also foolish to be completely cynical and not recognize that these pastors voted to stick with Josh against the board, which is a really huge step, and this might be the real deal.
So, we need to wait. There has to be more- this is a very flimsy apology but let’s wait and see what comes next.
Breeezey- “My thoughts are an apology without an offer of restitution of at least seven figures is not worth much. Conversation alone is just hot air.”
The world must be coming to an end….we agree on something :D
August 12th, 2011 at 9:24 am
I don’t have time to read through all the comments now, but I just wanted to say something.
Within the last year, I have spent time on the phone with Greg and another person while they talked through horrible treatment of a prior student of CLS. Greg never argued, dismissed or lessened what he’d done. He spent a lot of time working through the situation and I felt that he did a lot.
Also, others have told me that, on his own, he has gone to families he hurt while the kids were at CLS. This has been going on for a few years. I do not believe that Greg was given instructions to do this and I don’t believe he was forced to.
In speaking to him, I believe he was acting upon the prompting of the Holy Spirit’s conviction.
I have also been told and we ware able to see it in an email exchange that was posted here months ago. CJ was flat out against any acknowledgement of people who had been hurt as well as the blogs. Kind of like if you plug your ears, the sound will go away. Josh pushed to acknowledge blogs and CJ and his “yes” men strongly disagreed. Remember the “small group of embittered people?” So, now that CJ is out of the picture, CLC can do what they want.
I don’t trust any of them. I do have a great struggle, because I feel that everything they do is strategic and has something else behind it.
But, I just want to say that I have seen a genuine-ness in Greg.
I’m not advocating anyone talking with any of them. I still feel that we NEED to know why Gary and John ignored ExCLCer and her family all these years.
But, since people who don’t know Greg are coming out against him (as well as others who do), I figured I’d just share my experience.
Sidney
August 12th, 2011 at 9:25 am
I commend Greg for this first step. It is a public one, admitting he has done somethings wrong is great. To expect him to be specific about what those things are in a public forum I think is a bit premature. Let him make the first contact with out expecting him to show blood from beating himself for his mistakes(or the mistakes of others). Let him apologize to those he has wronged privately. CLC is undergoing a drastic and radical pruning(or maybe it is just parts flying of as the mother-ship prepares to disembark. This certainly is a wild ride!) Be patient and extend grace.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:29 am
I think there are some aspects of presentation that mean something. I think either a private communication, or something addressed to everyone, or a simple comment to the current post would have been way less ostentatious. Anyway, it’s done now. I hope it goes well and that the authoritarianism and abuse are discarded. Old habits die hard, and as I believe it was exCLCer’s mom said in an earlier post, when someone really repents you can tell because they can’t wait to do what is right. Otherwise, it is just words to try to make things go easier for them. In this case, Sommerville isn’t directly involved, but there is something in his conscience that he wishes would “go easier” right now. Perhaps the fruit of it will be true repentance in any possible cases where he was directly involved. Perhaps his example will be used by God to prick other pastors into doing what they need to do to make things right with those who have something against them before they offer their gift on the altar.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:39 am
Once again, thank you to all who have been so encouraging here. I appreciate your compassion and understanding.
@Sidney (#83): It is reassuring to hear that Greg has walked humbly in his own mistakes already. I do not know him at all.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:45 am
I am a current CLC member and have been for 12 years. I only found out about the blogs and any issues after the announcement of CJ’s leave of absence. I was completely blindsided by this. Quite frankly I’m moritifed by what i’ve read and even more so at how blind i was to :worm (this is me, the worm, crawling out of my hole and opening my eyes to the rest of the world) any reality outside SGM and CLC. I have reflected on how judgmental i’ve become as i measure EVERYTHING and EVERYONE by CLC standards of godliness, including my wife and kids. I’m not saying we don’t get taught about God’s abundant Grace but as i reflect on all these posts it does very much seem that the culture is to spend most of our time “sniffing” out sin in each other and ourselves and putting it to death. I know that if I am a true follower of Christ then i will want to put sin to death. But i also know even more so that HE has covered ALL of those past, present and future sins (which is not a license to continue in sin)! How much more “freeing” is it to focus on that great news of Grace rather than be constantly searching for sin to crucify and be mortified about? Lately i’ve pretty much stayed mortified and it sucks!
I just wanted to ask if anyone has noticed that Gary’s name isn’t on the letter sent to the members from Josh about Brian and Mike’s departure? I don’t really have time to read all the posts and try to keep up every other day or so. Actually i spend a lot of time reading old posts to get the history and all the testimonies. Any thoughts on this?
Also, and more relevant to this thread, let’s not be quick to judgement on Greg’s motives. From what i’ve read judgementalism is one of the biggest “problems” posters on here speak of about SGM. Moving forward in wisdom is called for and lack of trust seems to be appropriate but not immediately assuming (judging) the worst though i can see how history could offer that lense to view Greg’s letter through. God may very well be at work, and frankly only time will tell. If you look at the events over the last few months you must admit that MASSIVE things have been happening! God has their attention! I would also ask you all to consider what this is doing to current members, at least those willing to open their minds to all sides and draw their own conclusion. This is very painful and challenging (not at all to compare with what most of you have endured) to a large number of people and families.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:50 am
Mom #35--
You are absolutely right to draw the distinction between personal involvement with the situation and the more general statement that Mr. Somerville is making (which is a great first step as far as it goes). However, a quick Google search reveals that Mr. Ricucci and Mr. Loftness are still operating within the SGM sphere. Plus, this gross mishandling happened on CJM’s watch. So, since God is still giving them life and breath, why will they not own up to their failure to minister grace and genuine help to a family in critical need, and to keep a sexual predator from bearing the full weight of his crime?
A couple of weeks ago at my PCA church we sang Bob Kauflin’s adaptation of John Wesley’s hymn “Depth of Mercy.” One verse in particular seems appropriate here:
Give me grace Lord let me own
All the wrongs that I have done
Let me now my sins deplore
Look to You and sin no more
There for me the Savior stands
Holding forth His wounded hands
Scars which ever cry for me
Once condemned but now set free
Psalm 32:5 says, “Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD”— and you forgave the guilt of my sin.”
May God open blind eyes and pour out His grace on SGM pastors and powers-that-be, that may own the wrongs that they have done and perpetuated over many years and even to this day. May He give abundant mercy that they would, from the heart, deplore their sins and cast themselves on Jesus, the righteous Judge and only Savior.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:58 am
Mom,
Can we chat? I just want to connect with you since I watched your situation play out. And it’s breaking my heart. I have talked with ExCLCer via email. She can give you my email address.
If you’d rather not, that’s fine. :)
Sidney
August 12th, 2011 at 10:00 am
A pastor publicly posting to the blogs. Selah. (Pausing to contemplate.)
Thank you, Greg, for acknowledging that there are legitimate people here with real testimonies of their time in your organization.
If these particular folk who do not accept your offer of a private meeting, I urge you to continue to seek the Lord as to how He may ask you to proceed in your ministry, as a man, as a brother, as a pastor. I am heartened that your ears have turned to hearing.
Breezey in number 68 you said:
I really hesitate to hijack this thread, but I couldn’t let this go by. Spreading the news that the Millennial Kingdom is going to be here within two decades may be true, but I venture to guess that you have absolutely no proof, therefore I advise you to be very careful when seeking to time the return of the Lord and His sitting on the throne as King over His Kingdom. (I also advise you to read the above verses in context and you’ll see that we are certainly NOT living according to the remainder of the promises in verses directly before and after the ones you quoted. In the Joel passage verse 19, the Israelites are living in a time when there is no reproach against them -- and we know there is MUCH reproach against the Jews today. The Jeremiah passage, verse 34 declares that all of the house of Israel and the house of Judah will know God while we know that many of those houses are avowed atheists and unbelievers in the One True God and His Messiah Jesus.)
One thing we do know: God is answering the prayers of many who have cried for reform, repentance and change within SGM. It starts one man at a time. One heart at a time. One revelation at a time. One attempt at a time.
Each man in leadership has so much to change: his understanding and his theology, his methodology and his thinking. There is so much work to be done in each man before they can gather together to make sense of the newness of the day and then reach out to the congregations gathered around them, who are looking to them for answers.
First each pastor and leader needs to find the questions he must ask and only then can each pastor and leader come the answers IF they have willingness to seek and hearts to hear what the Lord is saying to them as individuals.
I, for one, will be praying that they are able to do the hard work as scales of blindness appear to be falling away from their eyes and the world around them is not what it has been.
Greg is one man taking one step towards attempting to understand one event (or two). Whether he can be proven trustworthy will be seen. Meanwhile, I applaud the man’s willingness to publicly acknowledge a person on the blogs. I view it as no small feat but a mighty work of the Lord in answer to prayers.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:01 am
Greg puts out a uber-mensch letter of kindness that’s allegedly historic. That’s getting play here. Yet, some context and caution. Syndey expresses distrust at #83.
Longingforheaven is on to something and catches the wider view. That is, while Greg issues the letter, a CLC blogger (a CLC Pastor?) gives the wave-off to Detwiler and the Survivors Blogs. I call your attention to Longingforheaven’s post. A hat tip to Longingforheaven who caught the scent of it. I’ll post it and then make some observations.
Post #6, paragraph 3, in the blockquote.
“But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.”
Observations on this:
1. This wave-off and prohibition of reading Brent Detwiler and the Survivor blogs is offered by an unidentified CLC blogger. Is it a Pastor? It’s not clear. It occurs in the context of Greg’s letter. But, the basic thrust is clear: do not read.
2. Observe the “delimiting” function the CLC blog puts forward. “But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life…”
3. Observe that this is a CLC imposed assumption in the “If” statement. No analyst will grant unexamined assumptions such as have been made.
4. Message to CLCers (and all others), do not read Detwiler or the Survivor blogs because it “concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility…” In other words, if you are not a Pastor with these pastoral responsibilities, stay out of it. Don’t read. It’s our business, not your’s, not Detwiler’s, not bloggers’, nor anyone else’s, inside or outside CLC or SGM. Why? It “concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility…”
5. Put on a national level and with this assumption, “…if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life…,” the all Christians worldwide should not read Detwiler or the Survivor blogs. Ergo, Dr. Duncan, Dr. Mohler, Dr. Dever, and T4G celebrities, do not read Detwiler or the Survivor Blogs.
6. Message to CLCers (and all others), do not read Detwiler or the Survivor blogs because the victim/s have no “significant influence on your life.” In other words, if Detwiler or the abused have no significance for your life, stay out of it. It’s not your business.
7. Observe the selfishness and narcissism of the phrase, if there is no “significant influence on your life.”
8. Observe the stupidities. These are debunked with ease. (1) Hitler had “no significant influence on my life,” therefore, I shouldn’t study WW2 history. For undergraduate and graduate students in history, don’t use this excuse with your Professor in failing to study that section of WW2 history. He won’t buy it. But, if you followed the CLC-blogger’s recommendation, that’s the excuse he’d recommend for not reading WW2 history since Hitler “has no significant influence on your life .” (2) “Criminal law” has no influence on my life, therefore, I should not take the law course in criminal law this semester. I have no criminal record. But, to follow the CLCer blogster, I should not study “Criminal Law” this semester since “it has no significant influence in my life.” (3) Anabaptists “have no significant influence” on my life, therefore, I should not study Anabaptist history. Or, since it is not “my responsibility,” since “it has not significant influence in my life,” and since I can’t “probably do much about it,” therefore, I should not read the news, blogs, TV or internet accounts re: sexual offenders in the Roman church, the murder that occurred locally, the national budget deficit, the Supreme Court decision on abortion, or the recent Casey Anthony trial.
9. Observe that once the illogicalities are posted, the unctuous nature of the CLC blogger becomes more apparent.
10. This CLC blog drops the bottomline and objective: “…you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him.”
11. “About him” refers to C.J. Mahaney. Inferrably, this may extend to his circle, including Dave Harvey. Reading “about him” is generally forbidden here. Yet, should we read anything “by him” if we can’t know “about him?”
12. The CLC-blogger makes a concession of (some) factuality and truth. “Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it.” He uses the singular, “report.” It’s not clear what he means.
13. There is no mention of “what parts” are true.
14. It’s a concession without stated evidence.
15. Mahaney and Harris have indicated that there is truth in Detwiler’s documents. Mahaney acknowledged at SGM ministries blog that he—Mahaney—has seen his own leadership problems for the last 5 years.
16. Since the CLC-blogger doesn’t develop the “if the report is true,” and, given the context, truth is not what it sought in the post. The big picture in the post: don’t read Detwiler or the Survivor Blogs.
17. A falsehood is offered. “Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it.” Or, retranslated” “Here’s the message, CLCers, you can’t do much about it, so don’t bother with the reading.” That’s wrong. That’s false. It’s error. There is plenty that can be done. Object and reason at public meetings. Write letters. Write emails. Withhold tithes. If needed, vote with one’s feet. Make informed decisions based upon an intelligent and careful review of the evidence. Refuse to submit to anti-intellectualism, e.g. don’t read widely. Repudiate the self-absorbed and narcissistic notion that you won’t read about anyone unless they have a “significant influence on your life.” Insist on specific rebuttals to Detwiler in writing and for review. Insist on financial restitution to those who were abused. Insist upon financial disclosures for SGM. Who’s getting paid what? Where there is truth expressed, share it. To suggest that “nothing can be done” is false.
18. A lack of confidence in CLC (and other) parishioners and a distrust in their rational faculties is expressed: “If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person.”
19. Given the assumptions that Pastors are abiters of truth and readings lists, notice they haven’t determined what’s true and what’s not. If they wanted “to serve” the flock, they’d do better by pointing to the “specific parts” that are false or wrong.
20. The CLC blog lays it on thick: “Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others.” It is not clear how this sentence functions, but is it an imputation of Satanic lies, slander and poison in the Detwiler documents and the Survivor blogs? In fact, is Satanic impulse at the root of Detwiler’s report and the Survivors Blogs?
21. “Slander” and “poison” are the two darts. Whose slander? Detwiler’s and the blogs?
22. Given #12 above, there was no comment on the role, might, competence, impulse, gift and discernment brought by the Holy Spirit to aid readers in the Detwiler documents or blog. Christians, by spiritual gifting, want truth, honor, facts and integrity. Yet, the CLC bloggers show no concern for this.
23. Observe this very closely. This CLC blog expresses no confidence in the Holy Spirit and the believer. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit shaping hearts and minds that aim for “truth, facts, and moral rectitude.” The Holy Spirit creates truth-lovers. Rather, we hear a veiled, if not explicit, allusion to the Devil, darts and slander and not a single word about the Holy Spirit.
24. The CLC blogger concludes as he started. “So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.” In short, if you don’t have responsibility for someone, do not read.
Interpretation:
Do not read the Detwiler documents or the Survivor Blogs because: (1) it’s not your responsibility, (2) it does not involve someone with significant influence in your life, (3) you can’t do much about it, (4) you will have poisoned your mind, (5) the Devil loves all this, and (6) you will have participated in slander.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:02 am
I think some of you need to get over yourselves about Greg’s attempt to reach out. Some of you are so bitter that you can do nothing but see the negative in what could be positive. Let this man say what he thinks. Why is he suppose to apologize by just reading someone’s account of what happened. For years people on this blog have posted an desired recognition and contrition from CLC and SGM. Now it may be happening and all you can come up with is this is CYA. I’m with Guy and Jim. This is a big deal! Personally, I don’t think they (CLC pastors) can be expected to do much more than this initially. If after a meeting it’s clear that there’s no change then let’s cut their heads off but until then stop being ‘unwise’ (sorry I just had to), let’s see if they are genuine.
Having said that if Exclcer and mom don’t want to meet then don’t do it. I’m fine with whatever you do. I just want there to be some real closure for you and not just a ‘shaking off the sandals of your feet.’ If you all do this meeting, you may be setting up foundation change so that this stuff doesn’t happen again by them or any SGM church for that matter. Who am I though. My experience is different so you do what you think is best.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:04 am
From the CLC website: “Greg moved to Gaithersburg and joined Covenant Life Church in 1987, eventually leading a Care Group and being encouraged by Robin Boisvert and others to explore a calling for pastoral ministry.
Greg served eight years with what is now Sovereign Grace Ministries, editing its magazine and “The Pursuit of Godliness” book series. He came on staff at Covenant Life School in 1995 to oversee development of the high school and, within two years, accepted C.J. Mahaney’s invitation to become a pastor.”
So it seems Greg WAS there at CLC at the time….somewhere between the position of CG leader and pastor…..hmm, wonder if he was privy to any of the details then. Were you Greg? Im fairly sure Robin Boisvert was “in the know” at the time (mom- can you confirm this?) If Greg knew the situation then, and had any involvement, it would beg the question of what stance he took on it then and in contrast where he stands on it now. If he didn’t know and wasn’t involved then I go back to my previous statement about standing up for whats right in light of what is known now.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:05 am
@Donald, you included this quote: “The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.”
“But if a report concerns a person for whom you have no responsibility and who has no significant influence on your life, you should generally shy away from reading or listening to critical things about him. Even if the report is true, you can probably do nothing about it. If parts of the report are false, you will have allowed your mind to be poisoned against another person. Remember that Satan is the father of lies; he loves to spread slander and poison believers’ hearts against others. So unless you have some kind of responsibility to listen to critical words about another, it is best not to receive such words, and especially not to pass them on to others.”
I’d like to focus on a part that most people seem to either not be reading or glossing over: “The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.”
I read that as Josh saying that since the pastors do have a level of influence in our lives, it would be perfectly normal and even good to spend time thinking about and analyzing Brent’s documents…in the same way one would spend time researching a president prior to voting in November. I did not read that as a silencing mechanism at all. Josh even writes: “If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.” Josh has previously in the same post agreed that Brent’s documents contain truth.
We as a body, do have a certain responsibility to respond to these things because CJ has held a place of influence (right or wrong) and there are things we can do to change it.
Anyway, I guess I just read it differently and have a different perspective.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:07 am
So Mr. Somerville, are you asking us to believe that you have been clueless up until now about these abuse situations which have festered for years?
The reason I’m with Kerrin and Ellie on this one is because it is highly likely that all SGM pastors have been aware for many years that abuse has occurred in some churches. And they all kept quiet about it. Not one ever spoke up until now.
Now as in the past, these men talk with each other and the top dogs would be stupid if they never communicated instructions to lower echelon pastors on how to handle these situations when they arise. Their modus operandi has been to cover up and quieten down the victims in whatever way they could.
Now things have changed. The cat is out of the bag for all the world to see. I have trouble believing that these men recently awakened to all this and are suddenly sincerely apologetic.
All institutions realize that abuse situations, especially those involving sexual abuse, are litigation prone. The empire must be protected. These men make good money and if SGMers begin exiting in droves, paychecks will be affected. I agree with Kerrin that this is likely an attempt at CYA. Any of these men could contact the people whose lives have been ill affected in private. That would come across as far more sincere to me than making a big splash on a blog so that current SGM followers can say, “Aw, look how hard our pastors are trying to make amends. They’re doing their best.”
Well no, they are not doing their best. Men like Mr. Somerville could contact the pastors whose names have been mentioned on this blog and demand accountability from them to see that justice is done. Where is their outright disgust for the way their fellow pastors have handled these situations?
August 12th, 2011 at 10:15 am
exCLCer 77
your post is perfect. your analogy is perfect. what you have asked for needs to happen. it is what they would require of any of us should the roles be reversed. your position is wise and correct. hold on to it. hold it right in their faces until they see it. be unrelenting, because you are right, so you can be bold and completely unyielding. be so annoyingly right and stand them face to face and make them confess the way that they have taught us to confess for years, and for much smaller offenses.
and tell them that acknowledging this is just the tip of the iceberg of all of the people they have harmed.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:17 am
@ ExCLCer #77 -- Greg was formally the pastor in charge of CLS (if memory serves me correctly) and is now serving in the family life ministry. Since this all falls under that ministry and the leader of that ministry up and left (Brian), these initial contacts are probably delegated to him. The pastors are working so hard to address so much right now. I can tell you their schedule is packed and there needs to be some delegation.
Greg is one of the gentlest, humble, and empathetic men I’ve interacted with. He is soft spoken, quick to listen, and I think he is a perfect choice to make these initial connections.
@ Mr. Nobody #87 -- Gary is not a pastor at CLC anymore, hence the lack of signature. None of the Sovereign Grace pastors signed the letter. That would include Gary, Bob, Jeff, and CJ.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:19 am
Mr. Nobody #87--
I noticed that Gary’s name was missing but I think it must be because he isn’t technically a CLC pastor but is with SGM. More striking to me was the absence of Bob Kauflin’s name. According to the CLC website, he is a CLC pastor.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:20 am
To be honest I can see very little biblical backup for most of the posts being made on this sight. Don’t you people have anything better to do? The lack of forgiveness and grace exhibited by most of you leads me to believe that you have become worse then thing you hate most. Perhaps you should try providing biblical back up with each post which I sure will reduce the nonsense by about 80%.
Most of the posters seem to be without sin. That is truly amazing and I would love to know how you do that. Most of you seem to think you have some biblical mandate to judge and throw stones via the web and hold on to you hurt more then you hold onto the cross. I would love to talk to your family members, co-workers, look at your tax returns and web sight viewing and see just how you all are living your lives. No doubt the response would be about the same as when Christ confronted people about to stone the women caught in adultery.
Where is your understanding of the Gospel? Where is your understanding of your own sin?
No I am not a SGM member or X-SGM.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:27 am
Ishmael said:
Really? Get over myself? Nice.
Maya Angelou once said “Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
Im not bitter- Im angry. And seeing the negative AND the positive is using the common sense of critical thinking. No one stopped him (Greg)from saying what he thinks, and I did not “demand he apologize” for something he (to my knowledge) had no direct involvement in. Actually the opposite.
Why does anyone assume I (or anyone else who has been hurt)has some pressing need for “closure”?? I feel they have more to gain from this “bringing to light” than I do. I cant get back those years, and have accepted that. I cant change what they have done. I know this. Only they can change what they do from now on, and my only way of knowing that they are doing so is carefully analyzing their words and actions. For me, nothing short of the people who were wrong, saying they were wrong, would show me that.
Don’t judge people for being suspicious or critical when you aren’t the one who has BEEN THERE to feel the pain of indifference, and you’re not the one who now has to weigh the pros and cons of allowing yourself to be put into a position to possibly be used as an example of someones contrition with no real accountability being made.
Save your get over it speech. Not interested in hearing it from you or anyone. Not your place, not your right, and not complimentary to character and integrity.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:31 am
pseudonym for a reason #95 :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 10:33 am
@Be Careful,
Here’s what I know: these guys have been very calculating (especially in their communication) and they have shown no acknowledgement thus far of being so. Perhaps, they are beginning to be affected by the negative fruits of the system they’ve created and propagated. I just have seen very little indicating that this isn’t more of the same: calculated communication; propaganda. It would be far more believable (to me) if they acknowledge their specific mistakes, missteps, tactics, methodologies, etc. that have caused all of this damage first. This type of communication seems more expedient to me.
The people I heard that quote from about Greg are not willing to be public at this time. I could produce many who went to that school and were damaged by the use of Greg’s tactics. My brother and sister being two. The kind of abuse that has occurred in CLC and CLS (not just the sexual abuse) is pervasive spiritual/psychological abuse. And I don’t want anyone else to be damaged by this.
Veggie Tails is a clever entertainment, by the way.
@Ishmael,
I am not “so bitter that [I] can do nothing but see the negative in what could be positive.” I am calling things as I see them. It’s my opinion based on experience, observation, and analysis. Am I upset at what this system has done to people? Hell yes! Sometimes I’m even angry. Show me the positive and I’ll jump on board. So far I haven’t seen much.
“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”—George Bernard Shaw
August 12th, 2011 at 10:36 am
Kerrin! #100 “The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”—George Bernard Shaw :idea: :idea: :idea: :!:
Yes!
August 12th, 2011 at 10:44 am
For those who have expressed curiosity and/or concern about how Mr. Somerville’s message was posted publicly here, rather than conveyed to specific people behind the scenes -
My impression is that Mr. Somerville wanted to make his appeal not just to exCLCer and SGMnot, but also to anyone else who might have had a similar experience.
And…considering SGM’s huge and problematic obsession with privatizing and confidentializing anything negative, I actually think an open letter is a better way to go.
I would encourage everyone not to be too cynical about this first step. It’s a good first step.
I would also encourage Mr. Somerville to step outside his SGM box and look at the larger picture. As he thinks about exCLCer’s and SGMnot’s stories, he needs to realize that the harsh and hard-hearted responses of the pastors involved in those situations have much broader root causes. He needs to understand that there is a much MUCH bigger problem beneath the surface than just two (or a half-dozen or however many) badly handled cases of sexual abuse.
Yes, it is horrific to read about CLC’s crazy and bass-ackwards ( :D ) reactions to victims of sex abuse. Absolutely horrific. And Mr. Somerville is right, in that it’s important for CLC pastors to seek out those mistreated victims and make personal amends with them.
But -- and this is NOT in any way to minimize what exCLCer, her mom, SGMnot, and anyone else out there have experienced -- there is actually something else that needs to be done, something that is just as important as making personal amends. And that is that all SGM pastors need to examine what motivated them to react to sex abuse victims (and perps) the way that they have. What was going on in the organization that caused pastors to have such self-righteous and harsh and downright icky responses to victims? What is it about what these pastors believe that makes them so jacked up when victims come to them?
What teachings and beliefs do they need to ditch? What was it (what IS it?) about SGM that has made the organization take such a “get over it” attitude toward victims while at the same time happily minimizing perpetrators’ deep-seated tendencies that (research tells us) almost never go away?
What was it (or what IS it?) about SGM that has set up an atmosphere where known sex offenders are allowed to have their past misdeeds forgotten (and not just forgiven) while clueless parents continue to permit their children to freely mingle with these perps?
See, while I believe that yes, it is important for SGM/CLC pastors to reach out to all victims of specific situations, I actually think it is just as important for these pastors to examine the trends. Examine the root causes. Examine what it is about what their organization has trained them to believe what enabled these horrific things to happen in the first place.
Until they do this -- and publicly and specifically and loudly recant and repent of all the false beliefs and teachings that have fostered such a crazy environment -- SGM churches will never be “normal.”
August 12th, 2011 at 10:46 am
By the way , Kris, I have posted my e-mail addy in previous posts, and both Gary and John have my contact information, but in case Greg couldn’t get it from those sources, please feel free to give him my email address. If Greg truly wants to understand my experience and learn to “better serve families” by it, then I am willing to give him my two cents on how I think that could be done. Not that my experience wasn’t pretty clearly detailed and outlined point by excruciating point in my story on here. And not that he couldn’t find some pretty valid and positive recommendations from the comments section of this blog in order to achieve that. I haven’t been adverse to any contact anyone has wanted to make with me concerning all of this (for YEARS-remember I have been the one “reaching out” for years now”). But as I’ve said before, I will not hear any undercover coded church talk, I am only willing to communicate in real world, real life terms, with common sense, and truth. When someone is ready to say what was done was wrong, I will listen.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:56 am
@PrayingforCLC@#94.
1. I understand your point. But even in paragraph 2 we hear another “delimitation.” It’s a carefully crafted blog-post.
“The same may be true if the person has significant influence over your life (such as the pastors in our church). If the report is true and the person refuses to repent, you may need to distance yourself from that person’s influence.”
2. On balance, a reasonable person reading the CLC blog (was it Mr. Harris?) would infer that, unless directly involved, all others should stay away from Detwiler’s documents and the blogs. In other words, if one has no responsibilites in these areas and if there is no direct relationship to the issue or reports, it’s best to stay away. I think that’s a common sense reading of the CLC-blogger’s post.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:57 am
ExClcer, to confirm your post (#92): Ah, Robin Boisvert..so much history there..he was the one to officiate at my wedding back in 1977. For a time, he was at the associated church in PA, but I do remember getting a phone call from him once, to say how sorry he was. It was not a long phone call, and we only spoke once (to the best of my memory), and honestly, I think it was a general sorry that this was happening to me, to which I tried to reassure him that none of us (except the perp himself, and God) knew this could happen, and that I appreciated his empathy. That was at the very beginning of things, 1987. I do not remember speaking to him after that. Doris Tomczak called me once, and we spoke at length. I think she felt a strong desire to help, and she was such an encouragement to me. We spoke once more, and then she called me, to tell me that while her heart broke over the matter, she could not be my friend through this, because I really needed to look toward my caregroup leaders at that time (Dave and Cathy Mays) because they were who God put close to me for support. I really got no support there (Cathy Mays was the one to suggest I send my abused daughter away, to allow the perp to return home), so that left me with dear Cathie Farr-a true friend to me, but who had literally just given birth to her 8th child! I could tell that Doris was almost in tears when she spoke those words to me. I could tell they were not words from her heart, but something she had been dictated to do. So, our family was “delegated” to JL, GR, and the Mays, initially. How much the pastors discussed between themselves I never really made much of my concern, so I really dont know. What pastors were at my “leaving meeting”, other than JL and GR, I dont remember even if there were others. I never questioned your sister about which pastors were at the meeting they “encouraged” her to go to before she got married, but I am pretty sure it was more than just JL and GR.
Also, can you either send me Sidney’s email, or give her mine?
August 12th, 2011 at 10:59 am
exCLCer, am I remembering correctly…you wrote to the CLC pastors every year to keep the issue fresh in their minds?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:02 am
james morris 99
“No I am not a SGM member or X-SGM.”
this is why i understand your comment. seeing irate people, without a complete understanding of why they are irate, can cause well-meaning people to comment like you did. spend 10, 15, or 20 years in a pdi/sgm church. maybe then you will have a little more understanding of our nonsense.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:07 am
Kerrin-great to see you here. You don’t remember me but I prayed for your sister a long, long time ago. I was very worried about the parenting “techniques” that the leadership was encouraging your parents to follow to keep her in line--for lack of a better phrase. I tried once or twice to gently steer your parents to a more balanced approach. I was much younger than they with little parenting experience, but I just felt like everyone was “tightening the noose” on your sister. I left CLC before I knew of any outcomes, and frankly, I could not look back for a long, long while. Heck, I even had to take a detour when I drove by the CLC Compound for many years. Yes Yes Yes. Psychological and Spiritual abuse are rampant and affecting far more people than the more obvious offenses. I have a hard time telling my story because it is almost all psychological abuse and hard to tell. God Bless!
August 12th, 2011 at 11:10 am
@exCLCer you just proved exactly my point about bitterness. My initial comments about people needing to get over themselves was not about you at all. A bunch of people, that are not you, have commented on Greg’s letter with the negative, rather than the potential that this could be a breakthrough. That comment wasn’t directed at you at all. As well, I’m not the only person who has expressed some of the same sentiments regarding Greg’s letter. So pardon me if I NOW think you may be bitter solely because you’re reading into that statement as if I was only talking to you.
As far as the whole closure thing, you are right. I was only thinking in the way most people feel when these types of situations happen and that statement was only trying to express concern for what happened and what needs to happen.
Lastly, until you know my story don’t tell me to save my get over it speech. You have no idea what I have gone through. Your story is horrific but it’s not THE story here. My comments are in the same veins as everyone else’s here. I have a right to say what I want just as you do. Please don’t piss on me and tell me it’s raining. If I don’t address you directly then don’t come at me like that. Or better, why do you get to stay how you feel and I don’t? Personally, I would love to see some sort of compensation happen for you and your mom etc., but jumping on my comment without knowing who I am speaking of is just as out of line as me ” being suspicious or critical.” I’m sorry you’ve been hurt…
@Kerrin again I find it amazing that without me naming names in my original post you also are speaking up as if I was directly talking to you. If I recall I believe I said “some of you.” The fact that you took that to mean you may be that it is you. Listen, Kerrin, I’ve read your story and feel bad about what happened. It must be hard to see anything good from your history there. However let my comments be based on my own ” experience, observation, and analysis” as you say yours are. I have never questioned what you have said. Please steer clear of questioning mine unless I directly speak to you.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:13 am
pseudonum -
#109 = :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 11:21 am
Hello all :new
I am a former CLC high school student that was expelled by Greg. This led to me leaving the church for good within the next year. What a mess that place was, talk about poor handling of teenage rebellion. Although I will be the first one to say how screwed up the school system (and youth group) was then and how it left such an impression on me during my teen years that I have never returned despite the rest of my family still attending (My parents have been in/around the church since it’s founding so I know all about CLC and have followed from a distance the recent goings ons the last few months.)I have to add that Sydneys post 83 is accurate. A few years after my expulsion by Greg, Greg sought me out completely outside of CLC and apologized for the way my situation was handled. He admitted to me the wrong ways in which they led the school and he actually wanted advice on ways I thought things could be changed for the better. I felt he was entirely sincere and that it was actually a fruitful discussion. Having said this I gained a lot of respect for Greg and I feel like this letter although it may not be worded exactly how everyone wants, is at least sincere. Hopefully this is the beginning of a lot of changes at CLC, a place that really had some negative effects on me during my 17+ years of attendance.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:26 am
@Ishmael: I understand your reaction, as well as the reaction of others. Please, let us all remember that almost everyone who posts here is, or has been, wounded in some way or another. Knowing this, let us be patient with each other..some may be quick to feel accused when they are not deserving of such accusations..others may feel particularly “left out” if not specifically mentioned..all typical reactions to wounded spirits. Let us all please handle each poster here with gentleness.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:34 am
Something else occurred to me as I was re-reading my #104. And that is, one of the heart-rending side effects of SGM’s bad and abusive responses in situations like exCLCer’s is that many who have been harmed by SGM’s faulty beliefs and assumptions have gone on to decide that all of the gospel of Jesus is faulty.
SGM pastors -- who claim to believe that the gospel of Jesus is “the main thing” -- think about that for a moment. Actually, think about that for way more than a moment.
Because of your harsh responses to victims, responses that flow out of SGM’s false and cultic shepherding ideas about pastoral authority and the pastor’s role as being primarily one of confronting and “rooting out” sin in members’ lives, there are people out there (SGM’s victims) who have equated your wrong practices with the gospel…and have then gone on to condemn the gospel of Jesus.
Yes. Think about that. Just dwell on that.
You claim to think the work of “the Savior” is “the main thing.” But really, you have cheapened and trampled that work. You have misrepresented that work by presenting a false view of what ought to be good news (the literal translation of “gospel”). You have turned the good news of Jesus upside down, to where your victims now equate Jesus with mean men who tell downtrodden abused people to get over themselves, to look at their own sins, and to move on.
We will all stand before God and answer for ourselves one day about what we did with the news of Jesus. We will all have sole responsibility for our own responses to the gospel. That is true.
So I’m not going to say that those who have decided to reject Jesus because of your false and cultic practices will somehow get a free pass from God.
But, I certainly would not want to be responsible for misrepresenting Jesus to the people who have rejected Him because He was misrepresented.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:38 am
Re ExCLCer’s mom -- #107 What a load of hooey that anyone, whether they are pastors, caregroup leaders or whatever should have the authority to tell us who our friends should be. This has been one of my long standing pet peeves with SGM -- the pastors are only friends with themselves and a few hand chosen clones and the rest of us are taught that our friends should only be those people in our caregroups. Fortunately, some of that has eased up in the last 10 years or so and personally, I am better friends with long time friends who have since left SGM. FFX used to teach about friendship and loyalty but when the rubber hit the road, the leadership was not your friend and when you left, as we did, noone bothered to follow up with us even though we had been there from the beginning.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:41 am
@Kris #115 -- I have thought about this verse several times when thinking about exCLCer and family:
But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (Mt. 18:6)
August 12th, 2011 at 11:43 am
pseudonym for a reason: I wonder what it will take for people to move on? I see a lot of “if SGM does this or that I will let it go” type comments. To be honest I don’t think some people want to let it go and nothing that is said or done will make a difference. That is not the gospel.
What would make a person stay at a SGM church for 10-15 years if they were being hurt so badly?
James
August 12th, 2011 at 11:45 am
@Whirlwind.. :word :clap
August 12th, 2011 at 11:48 am
ExCLER posted “Maya Angelou once said “Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.” My I ask what God says about mans anger?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:49 am
ExCLER may I ask what God says about mans anger?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:51 am
Already gone #108 -- yes, yes I did.
Ishmael #111 -- I wasnt reading into it that you were ONLY talking to me, but read into it that I was included in “some” since I wasnt excluded specifically, and did have a somewhat negaitveand suspicious perspective on the wording of the letter. You certainly have the right to say whatever you please, but my comment about save the “get over it speech” was just meaning to say it will usually fall on deaf ears when people who have been hurt hear those words. It certainly has a dismissive connotation to it for me,as it has been used in the past to justify wrongs and pass them over as trivial, but if it wasnt intended that way, then I accept that. And if Im not included in your “some”, I accept that too, and thanks for clearing that up. Im not bitter, but did jump to the conclusion that I was included in your statement, maybe defensively so. My bad.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:53 am
James Morris,
Since you claim you have no connection to or history with SGM, I’m going to ask that you take some time to read here before continuing with the off-topic remarks. If you want to discuss SGM and GS’s message, fine. But if you want to direct your comments toward other commenters and try to point out how wrong they are, I’m thinking that’s going to be a waste of all our time.
I do find it interesting, that as a (supposed) non-SGMer, your first reaction here is to rebuke SGM’s victims. What’s going on in your thoughts? Do you typically see fit to weigh in on websites devoted to topics with which you are (supposedly) unfamiliar?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:55 am
This verse, admittedly used out of context here, illustrates the difficult position of SGM. They’ve leavened the dough with their poor handling of abuse cases. It only takes once to destroy trust, and the multiple examples brought forth on the blogs compound the problem. No matter how sincere Mr. Somerville or any other SGM leader is, trust will be extremely hard to earn back. It doesn’t happen with just one step. It takes years of making the right steps to convince people you get it and you’re serious about changing. The real question is -- Has SGM done too much damage already for people to trust them enough to let them take more than that first step?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:55 am
exclcer: I would like to see the court records. what is the case number and which court?
August 12th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
james morris 118-
i was a kid and didnt know any better, which started a pattern of thinking that lasted well into my adult years.
who would you take to task first, a rich connected politician ruing the lives of the poor in his district, or the poor responding angrily to that politician? your focus on the wrong priority smacks of a vested interest in the continued status quo.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
James Morris-- Maybe your late to the conversation, but I dont in the least care what your god says about mans anger. I dont believe in god. And if Im wrong about that, and there is one, albeit one who would sit by and allow suffering (genocide, illness, abuse, etc) to happen to his people, whilst at the same time answering prayers for patience in a traffic jam, or “grace and understanding” to someone from the cushiness of ones single family home or pulpit of power, then F him. Dont ask ME what god says about it…barking up the wrong tree. My experience with CLC wasnt the only thing to bring me to this understanding, but it sure did serve to reinforce it in so many ways. And if in your opinion that makes me not “worthy” of validation, of the wrongs that were done in your gods name, by the men who claimed to be so following of that same god, then you only further reinforce my understanding.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
@ concerned: These are public records, so I assume it is okay to share here.
State of Maryland, Montgomery County, Circuit Court # 49266
The criminal case was settled fairly quickly. The custody was what went on for many years. Those records, being in Juvenile Court are sealed. While I do have most of those records in my possession to share with specifically involved people when, or if, the need arises, I do not feel comfortable sharing those on any public forum.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
concerned -- case # 49266c , public record at Maryland Judiciary Case Search. Circuit Court of Montgomery County. Thats the initial filing.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
James,
Do the right thing and SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE, and do some reading on this blog and sgmrefuge blog BEFORE you weigh in on anything! Good grief!
Kris is far nicer than I am…I would have deleted you out of hand. Sheeeeesh.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
exCLCer: You have a lack of understanding and I truly hope I have not contributed to that.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:15 pm
Already: You are acting like a SGM pastor.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
hey there mom, we were posting it at the same time. Yes I agree, do not post any of your paper records on here. Although they offer so much evidence to the truth of our story, we do not have an obligation to prove anything. The public records tell it pretty clearly.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:18 pm
@four 1/2 pt calvinist,
Hi there! Thanks for attempting to help my parents with their parenting. You must be speaking of the older of my two sisters, Melanie. You’re right about the noose tightening on her… and boy did she feel it. Anyway, she is doing wonderfully now, having made her escape from CLC, and recovered in her own way/time. She now has a great relationship with my mother, who you’ll see comment here from time to time.
It’s good to hear from you in cyberspace. I get the inability to describe what occurred to you. It’s taken me years of study and analysis to be able to speak about what I witnessed and observed over my 20 years at CLC.
@Ishmael,
It’s part of who I am: I speak up when I feel others are being mistreated. So you didn’t name me, I felt like responding as if you did. Did that violate some unwritten rule of communication? I didn’t take it to mean that you were speaking of me, therefore this is inaccurate: “The fact that you took that to mean you” and not a fact. I speak up when I can, when I feel the strength to do so.
Personally, I don’t like when other people are dismissed for being “bitter” or “angry” or “unbeliever” or whatever label you want to give them. I think people should be heard and listened to. Disagree if you must, but this is how conversation works. It just gets to me when people are dismissed for supposedly being “bitter” or “angry” or “unbeliever” or whatever…
I was not questioning what you have said. I was responding to it. That said, thanks for your understanding of my situation and expressing your sentiments here. If I disagree with them and I feel up to responding I will do so. I welcome anyone to question me or my thoughts: let’s discuss.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
To everyone who thinks Greg’s open letter is sincere. Read it again and again and again, line by line. I see nothing more than a narcissistic ATTEMPT at an apology. Do NOT trust a private meeting or phone call with him. You will just keep playing into their hands. Enablers and co-dependants cannot see it until they challenge the narcissists themselves and get burned by them themselves. But I think deep down they know that but they are unwilling to test and feel the seering rejection and damage for themselves.
Every family who has a narcissist knows what I am talking about. The narcissist’s supply really just wants the ‘better’ people to be ‘bigger’ than the narcissist so they can just live out a pseudo utopia.
I ask you, where do you see in Greg’s letter that he actually feels ANY grief FOR the survivors. His letter is canned. It’s like there is some Narcissist school one can go to to learn how to do this. I am just glad I have not actually met or talked with him yet myself to get influenced by his niceness. Daughter fell into the trap of a phone call with him because he wouldn’t answer her question by email. When I showed her that his answer was in contradiction to all I was reading in SGM church discipline and in contradiction to actual videos preached she just kept saying how nice and sincere he sounded. The best I could offer her was that maybe just maybe he didn’t agree with SGM and he had to keep his answer on the down low so as not to get in trouble.
But since it was a phone call and not written it is again a he said/ she said.
Kerrin, thank you for saying who that principle was. I had assumed that since Greg was so nice that you before were referring to a principle before 2001. But I did hear (second hand) that corporal punishment could be severe there. Not sure if the student who told me that received hacks or just witnessed.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
@James Morris (#118); I can understand how you ask that question. Many people wonder why an abused woman stays with her abuser, or why a kidnapped child who may have an opportunity to escape will stay with their kidnapper, or why parents fed their children poisonous kool-aid (Jim Jones cult)…some of the very same things apply here. People who have been “trained” to NOT hear God for themselves, to NOT trust their own judgment anymore. To almost be “afraid” to be “out in the world”. They are afraid of the isolation as well. When I first joined “Gathering of Believers, it seemed to be a much different Church. Once the building came into “vision” everything changed, but nothing short of the abuse of my daughter would have caused me to leave that church, even when I did argue with them and confront them often on issues. Even then, I remained, until my children were no longer in the school. How afraid I was to send my children to teachers whom I didn’t even know! It took me years to adjust to the Public School system. It is hard to explain to someone who has not “been there”. I hope this helps you understand a little.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
James, now you’re just being mean!
August 12th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
James,
Before you do any more damage, why don’t you grab a Starbucks and start reading some of the stories here.
I’ve been reading here all morning and can certainly understand the range of emotions and my prayers remain with the families of SGMnot and eCLCer. But speaking on behalf of a family that has been Shanked, Mullerized, hung on the Gallo’s, Hindered, Mahaney-ized, Maresco-ized, Brittized, and run out of of town on a James 4 rail by a “biblical” mediator -- for what it’s worth, I think Greg is to be commended for reaching out and making the effort, it’s way more than any of the others have done.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
People have a perfect right to disagree on this, but I don’t understand what there is to trust here. To me, the words of people who protect perpetrators are exceedingly cheap. I suspect that every SGM pastor has been aware of these problems for a very long time. Given that high probability, these sudden “out-of-the-blue publicized apologies” seem off to me.
Speaking of both Brent and Greg, I think it’s interesting how these former and current SGM pastors are now utilizing these blogs as a mouthpiece. Just a thought. It makes for exciting print, but to me it sidesteps more challenging actions needing to be taken by these men.
Kris, I’m not in any way implying that you should not post what the Big Dogs say. I think we all are grateful for what you and Guy are doing here. The work you’ve accomplished through this blog is phenomenal. I am not taking issue with how you run this blog.
My gut just tells me something about the way these Big Dogs are using the blogs to make their points is a bit questionable on their part.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Patti,
“When I showed her that his answer was in contradiction to all I was reading in SGM church discipline…she just kept saying how nice and sincere he sounded.”
As in?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZY8jUuEzJQ
August 12th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
Quote by Kris,
“Because of your harsh responses to victims, responses that flow out of SGM’s false and cultic shepherding ideas about pastoral authority and the pastor’s role as being primarily one of confronting and “rooting out” sin in members’ lives, there are people out there (SGM’s victims) who have equated your wrong practices with the gospel…and have then gone on to condemn the gospel of Jesus.”
That is the most grievous part of this whole thing. :(
August 12th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
“From Gospel to Grace” said,
That’s why I think that SGM’s expressed concerns over people’s anonymity (which supposedly is because they want to know how to get in touch with those whom they’ve hurt) -- as well as the notion that SGM’s problems can be solved if they make honest attempts to “reconcile” with the people whom they’ve hurt -- do NOT really demonstrate that anyone at SGM has a good handle on where they should be directing most of their efforts.
Yes, as I’ve said, private apologies and sincere attempts at righting past personal wrongs with victims are important. Every victim of SGM’s authoritarian ways and un-Christlike harshness should get an apology and should be approached for reconciliation. I’m not trying to minimize that.
BUT, if SGM directs its energies toward private reconciliation and yet fails to address the ROOT CAUSES of the original situations, they are not really doing anything to fix the problems and they are not really doing anything to make life better for present-day SGMers.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:49 pm
For Remnant #90 -- I have been a student of eschatology since I first read The late Great Planet Earth in 1975. I wake up everyday surprised we are still here. I know very well the context of those 2 scriptures are for the millenial kingdom. (At risk of another issue with 5yearsinPDI)one of my problems with Augustine is he was the first major teacher to allegorize prophecy. He looked at scripture and saw all these unconditional prophecies for Israel but there was no Israel. So he began to teach the church was the new Israel. Now we have a nation called Israel for the first time since 722BC. Once you begin to interpret prophecy literally it opens before your eyes that we are the the generation that will see His return.
Matthew 24:32-34 says learn the parable of the fig tree. (fig tree is symbolic of Israel) vs 34 “this generation shall not pass” Matthew 25:31-34 at the second coming Jesus separates the sheep gentiles from the goat gentiles. But most people don’t know that in Ezekiel 20:32-42 God says He will enter into judgment with Israel “face to face” (vs. 35). So only believing Jews and believing gentiles go into the kingdom. The church will have had 2 judgments before then, the rapture before the tribulation and the Bema seat of judgment during the tribulation in heaven before the marraige supper of the Lamb.
I’m not stupid enough to set a date, but we are commanded to recognize the general time in Matt 24:33. We are in that general time. :clap :clap I wake up everyday surprised we are still here.
I don’t want to hijack the thread either so if you want to discuss this more bounce me an email at yahoo. I can give you pages and pages of “proofs”.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
@exCLCer and mom,
Thank you for your comments. I agree and understand. I hope somehow and in some way you are compensated for what you have lost.
@Kerrin No violation of an unwritten rule of communication. Just as long as you respect the fact that you’re not the only one who says what he thinks. And if you say something to me I’m saying it back. Personally, I don’t care if you like how people are being labeled. You do it too. Why I should I care what gets to you if you don’t care what gets to me? I’m sorry that you have been offended but not so sorry that you can just say to me whatever you “feel up to” in your responses. Being one that has also gone through some things I respect that you have too. All that being said Touche’!
August 12th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
Kris, could you list the root causes of the original situations? You may have done so elsewhere, but this might be a good time for a refresher or at least, point people to where it’s listed.
August 12th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
@Patti,
Yes, he was the principle from 2001-2007. But he was brought on to oversee the development of the high school in 1995. Corporal punishment from all the accounts I’ve been aware of did seem severe at that school, although I was fortunate enough to never attend it. Or perhaps misfortunate for not attending: I’m sure if I did I would have gotten out of CLC around the age my other siblings did (around 18) having been subjected to that school. If I got out earlier I would probably have a lot less baggage.
These guys can turn on the “nice” when it suits their purposes. I find it more disingenuous than anything else (i.e., love bombing).
August 12th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Prov. 14: 10 ” Each heart knows its own bitterness, an NO one else can share its joy.”
I am thankful for the hymn SGM churches adapted: “No tongue can bid me to depart!” On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand!” Even SGM! All of us stand before God, laid bare, and HE declares us righteous! Through Jesus, our Great I AM. and intercessor!!! Still Preaching the Gospel to myself, after 10 yrs. away, “Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the Bible tells me so!!!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
[deleted at author's request]
August 12th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
The dynamics of the responses to Greg’s letter are very interesting. There are those who are so desperate to see SG pastors/leaders acknowledge their sinful leadership, they will accept any form of repentance, remorse or confession. This is dangerous because if it isn’t genuine, honest and transparent it will not bear the fruit in keeping with their repentance. This isn’t about just feeling good but bearing fruit (fruit that remains).
The other side of the spectrum is those who wouldn’t trust any of these guys regardless of what they say or do because SGM has tainted everything with their spin. So to not believe everything they say will be not be severely scrutinized would be unreal to think otherwise. The SGM culture and spin for decades has been about deflecting sin and weakness from the pastor to the victim. SGM has spent 30 years in a CYA position so they should not be trusted.
So how do we move forward to a healthy discourse while preserving the unity of the Spirit in a bond of peace? Obviously, the challenge that SG pastors have before them is not an easy one. How do they communicate a change in heart and understanding if they continue to use the same language and the same delivery? I personally don’t believe it is possible to move very far forward if the SG pastors cannot change the way they communicate. It is not impossible but it is difficult to change a thirty year culture that doesn’t lend itself to reconciliation and restoration; and a government structure that is adversarial to any challenges or corrections.
If we are to inject the glory of the Lord into this season of change, it will take patience, compassion, graciousness, slow to anger, loving kindness and gentleness, faithfulness and forgiveness. It is not only possible but very much a reality as the glory of God lives in us, the Lord of glory. “It is no longer I who live but Christ in me”.
It is my hope and prayer for Josh, Greg and other SG pastors is to make your focus on the victims and the Lord and not about yourselves (self protection, self justification, false humility, etc). As much as these are deeply emotional things, I don’t believe people will be won over by tears and how bad YOU feel, but how you take personal responsibility; to not use words that deflect but are open and honest in which you own your actions, behavior and words. It is not a time to figure out percentages of responsibility.
I would also encourage you to get someone on the outside SGM (and not another group like SGM) to help you with how you communicate your hearts, your remorse and your confessions. I am not trying to beat anyone up but the SGM culture is naturally protective of leaders and the victimizers, Leaders will need to learn how to communicate differently and honestly.
I am personally very encouraged with what I am seeing and hearing from CLC but it is not without a certain amount of skepticism. For me it is not what someone says but what do they do!! We live in a society and culture where talk is cheap and no matter how cheap it is I’m not spending.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
Kerrin,
“These guys can turn on the “nice” when it suits their purposes. I find it more disingenuous than anything else (i.e., love bombing).”
Yes, yes. This makes it much harder to discern, but you can easily see it in the verbiage between Detweiler and C.J. in the documents. Both of them are so nicey-nice while being up to something.
Can someone give me one good reason to trust these people?
August 12th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Irv….bingo
August 12th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Irv: I love your whole post! Well said! :clap :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
If Greg’s letter represents an honest attempt to starting changing CLC’s ways and going in a new and better direction, that’s wonderful. A lot of people have commented that the recent CLC members meetings addressing various problems and the letters from Josh certainly have been a welcome change, so that fits with Greg’s letter. But, as others have pointed out much better than I can, the core issues within the church stem from the underlying SGM doctrine that has led to all kinds of problems for a lot of people in a lot of different areas. It’s bad from the roots up. It seems to me that CLC can’t really profoundly change unless that underlying doctrine changes. If SGM doesn’t agree that it needs to change a lot of core values, than CLC would have to break from SGM and basically start over if it has any hope of real change. My question though, is can the current group of CLC pastors, who are firmly rooted in SGM doctrine and have been supporting it all these years, really effect that change? When a company in the real world is acquired, most of the time the upper management of the acquired company has to be let go. Not because they’re necessarily bad managers, but because they usually have a hard time embracing the new company’s ways of doing things. I realize of course that with God all things are possible, but I hope the CLC pastors recognize how difficult this will be and how much really needs to change.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
@James -- I don’t know what your agenda is. But it is unhelpful and very un-Christ-like. Take some time to get to know people before going after them here. You should have known exCLCer is not a believer and statements like yours would do nothing less than to push her further away from our Savior.
re: Greg’s history. We had a meeting a few months ago about the past wrongs (sins/mistakes/?) of CLS and they were seeking out forgiveness and condemning of their own old policies. A lot of people were hurt at CLS evidently but the pastors and new principal are making many necessary changes.
I hope folks can see a pattern here. God has gotten the attention of the pastors at CLC. They are making changes. I think this an important point -- if it was all a facade and spin, I don’t think Mike and Brian would have walked out. Give them a chance. God is able to do mighty works.
I do hope and pray that whatever mistakes/weaknesses/sin patterns that come to light at CLC extend downstairs and then out to SGM.
@ Kerrin -- you mentioned the anonymity of ‘the supporters’ — I am only anonymous because I want it to be crystal clear that my words here do NOT represent my church (no I am not on staff). I have already had to repent of sins against others during my limited time here. I do know who you are by the way, but I don’t know you well but I am grieved by what has happened to your family. I pray there is SOME redemption in your collective lives.
@ exCLCer -- I hope you know the experience of God that you have had is not that of the true God. I have walked through significant trials myself but can only say that without there being a God it would have all made no sense and I would be a completely devastated basket case. I pray one day you may encounter the true love of Jesus, not what was represented by the lack of love of men that you experienced. Hope I didn’t offend, and I definitely don’t want to be preachy, but it would be so easy to dismiss God in what you’ve shared that you’ve walked through.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
I am in agreement with you regarding your view of eschatology except, perhaps, for timing. There are no unfulfilled prophecies which must occur before the Rapture yet the timing of that event remains to be seen. I agree that the times are getting more wicked however, these are MERELY the beginning of the signs (Mark 13:8 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.)
My moniker “Remnant” is due to the fact that I am of the believing Remnant of Israel via the blood of the Messiah. I spent a good part of the morning hoping and praying you were not of the British Israelism ilk :spin and am quite relieved to put this concern to rest because I was soooo not wanting to “take this outside” er….off loop. Blessings!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Oy. I do not think so highly of myself that I think my posts deserve to be in bold. Shaking head. Don’t know what happened. Probably a mis-spoken > sign. Sorry Kris.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Double oy. My number 155 is for Breezey.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Irv, thank you for that excellent comment!
The mental image I’ve had in my head all morning is Lucy with the football, promising Charlie Brown that this time will be different!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Wow, aren’t we all over the map about Greg’s sincerity here.
Ex -- I don’t know where you live, but I just want you to know that it would be way to much for me to step foot back inside that building, and you add all that you have been through to that I can’t see you doing that. I am just saying, if it does come to meeting with him/them you have every reason in the world for it to be somewhere besides CLC. I also agree with what someone posted many posts ago…be careful how many of “them” are present. You sound like you are way ahead of me on this, even being unwilling to deal with their SGM speak etc…but I just had to say.
As for the notorious Mr Somerville. I’m gonna give my two cents. I personally believe he is being as sincere as he possibly can given the mysterious blindness to their own error that comes with being a pastor and even happy member of SGM.
I think sometimes some of the pastors, perhaps like Joshua these recent days, aren’t deliberate about their “spin”, I just think they don’t know how else to function, they have been so indoctrinated…some would say brainwashed.
That is why this blog is soooooo critically important. The nuances of the SGM spin are wide and deep. That is why having all you “survivors” here skillfully articulate the errors for us, is an instrumental part of the “healing”/normalizing process.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Let My People Go,
I just have to tell you how much I like your name. I actually have that on my list of favorite quotes. ( Let my people go! -- God)
August 12th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
okay blogosphere, I’m signing off for now, from discussing one organization that needs some serious improvement, and headed down to Landover to see about another org. that also could desperately use some real improvement….(maybe one we can all agree on)… my poor dear Redskins! lol. Lets go Skins!
August 12th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
helpful reminder taken from the conclusion of a Tim Keller and David Powlison article (especially the third bullet):
————
In summary, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, the principle is this. If you hear bad reports about other Christians you must either cover it with love or go to them personally before speaking of it to any others.
• The first thing to do is to simply suspend judgment. Don’t pass on bad reports.
• The second thing to do is “cover” it in love, reminding yourself that you don’t know all about the heart of the person who may have done evil—and you know your own frailty. Don’t allow bad reports to pass into your own heart.
• The final thing to do is go and speak to them personally.
What you should never do is rush to judgment, or withdraw from loving another, or pass on the negative report to others. This is challenge enough when you’re dealing with the local grapevine or slow-moving postal service. In a world of instant worldwide communication of information it’s an even bigger challenge, because you can do bigger damage more quickly. Whether the bad report offers true information, or partial information, or disinformation, or false information—it is even more important that you exercise great discretion, and that you take pains to maximize boots-on-the-ground interpersonal relationships.
————--
It seems to me there is an inherent danger of the above in this particular forum. We better watch out.
August 12th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Patricia,
Thank you for that link, ya, no words can tell what I’ve been thinking better than that!
August 12th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Kris and Guy,
Thanks for being willing to post Greg’s note here, and thanks for being open to hear what he is saying in the note. You’ve mentioned that the note is a huge and historic step, but I think your response -- along with Jim’s and some other folks -- is also huge. I used to think this blog was just negative and over-reactive, but not anymore.
Although I can’t say I agree with everything you’ve done and said on this blog, I do see now that you are not just out to “get” SGM. After my blundering, offensive comment on a previous post, you and others were very kind and forgiving, which gave me much pause for thought.
Someone -- I suspect it was an SGM insider who monitors this blog (just a guess) -- followed me back to my own website and, since I don’t publish my direct email, this person left a comment on an old post confronting me about my bad attitude. When I woke up at 2AM and saw the comment on my phone, it was like being electrically shocked, and I felt awful for the rest of the night (good conviction of the Holy Spirit!).
All this just to say that I think there are some on this blog who really want to see God’s glory magnified through all of this, and at least some in SGM leadership who are truly repenting for the wrongs of the past, looking for ways to re-structure and re-focus the organization, and trying to move forward in a healthier way. And, if I might be so bold, I would caution all of us against assuming who is and isn’t in that category. I am learning a thing or two about assuming.
I hope this doesn’t sound like a lecture, I’m just observing and commenting on the good things I’m seeing on both sides. And trying to encourage more of it.
Blessings,
Derek Ashton
August 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
James Morris,
Just because you *have* a male appendage does not give you an excuse to *be* a male appendage.
Please learn how to play nice and if you are going to be a nasty, don’t pick on anyone here that has had a family member molested and then experienced injustice at the hands of SGM. I’m just saying I will not retract my claws if that sort of attack the victim continues.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:03 pm
exCLCer. You just made my day saying you are Skins Fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And yes we need some work…
August 12th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Theo…
All is well. As in all things there are going to be differing opinions. All are welcome until they reach the point of just plain “mean”. I hope for the day when we can “turn this blog off” (i have a big red switch in the office). Until then, there are going to be times when some of us will agree to disagree. All are welcome here…
August 12th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
James Morris asked: “To be honest I can see very little biblical backup for most of the posts being made on this sight. Don’t you people have anything better to do?”
No, actually, God has freed up my calendar. Do I have other things that I would RATHER do than trying to slap the koolaid glass out of my daughter’s hand from over 2000 miles away? You Betcha! And for the record, I have NOTHING against her BF or his family. I am NOT trying to separate them. In fact I can see along with many other bloggers here who have commented that the faithful attenders among the SGM family are good. I have NOTHING negative in my mind about them except for SGM controlling so much of their lives. There is NOTHING unbiblical about what I am doing, unless you count my housework duties sliding because of the time spent here reading each and every comment. I am so grateful for all the comments that I do not need to write because there are so many very smart Holy Spirit led educated commentators here. Some have ‘checked’ me before I wrote something I should not have, I am grateful for those too. Hmm, ‘hope I’m not starting to sound sgmese there, oh well, like my pastor warned me while back, I shouldn’t ‘bristle’ every time I hear a benign word that triggers a bad memory.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:19 pm
James, you awakened some mama bears when you went after one of the victims of sexual abuse. We feel pretty darn protective of them all. Badly done.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
TheOperadox, glad you feel encouraged and hopeful. I too am confident that if God is working in the lives of the men leading SGM, then positive change can and will happen. But to trust this is the case without seeing any meaningful actions backing up their words is not wise in my opinion. The history is in itself quite D**ning.
As they say, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”
SGM is a business. Money and power are at stake. I’m glad you see that this blog is not reactive, but realistic.
The good news is that God’s church is alive and well. Anyone deciding to leave the SGM machine can be led by God to find a body of believers with accountability in place. They can bring their friends along too.
Personally, I find the heartfelt sharing people do here to be refreshing.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
My apologies to all here who I wholeheartedly support but as I started reading through the responses to GS’s open letter I had to stop at about # 10. I am an an SGM survivor. I use my name in my posts not to disparage anyone who does not but I simply have nothing to fear from SGM or CLC pastors (I realize others here do have fear of retribution for themselves and others and it is a legitimate concern-- not that you need me to affirm that. I am just stating my personal perspective). GS has taken a step. That’s all. He is making an attempt at healing and reconciliation. Everyone here has the right, no make that the responsibility to remain skeptical. I would like to make a few points:
1. I seriously doubt any of the leaders at CLC no how to get in contact with exCLCer directly. I do not know if that is true, I simply express my doubt. Plus, making the initial contact here assures some public accountability and acts as a safety net especially for exCLCer and SFMnot.
2. Setting skepticism aside for a moment, Greg’s letter is a monumental step — it is also a step that should have been taken long ago or a step that should have actually never been necessary to take.
3. While attending the first CLC members only meeting (with permission from CLC leadership -- my own personal belief that crashing the party would have been disingenuous) a member of CLC publicly stated he did not trust CLC leadership any longer. The response from the stage, ” you should not, we do not deserve your trust and we know we have to earn it back. At the time I judged/discerned this to be both the right response and sincere — meaning ok, let’s see what they will do. As a former president said, “trust, but verify.”
4. So the question is, does this communication from a CLC pastor represent a genuine, heart felt attempt at healing, righting wrongs, repentance, etc? Honestly, we don’t know. And I don’t know, and wouldn’t offer my opinion to exCLCer and SGMnot about whether or not to respond with anything other than a flat out refusal. Only, they can decide and I personally think that whatever their response is, it would be the right one. In other words, with these awful sins that the two stories reveal, the wounds, betrayals, and damages caused by the actions and inactions of the CLC pastors involved will not heal this side of glory without a genuine miracle. Trust will never be and should never be extended again to the men involved. That would be one price they have to pay for their actions. Their sins are so egregious, IMHO they are disqualifying — whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me Matt. 25:40-45.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Kerrin earlier made a statement about the spiritual abuse at CLS…
While I think there are countless cases of graceless discipline consequences at CLS, I would like to paint another picture of CLS…a history teacher coming into the classroom dressed as a historical figure giving an entertaining and educating glimpse into the past (that occurred often), a senior class english teacher who is very comfortable with calling out and active discussion amongst the class, who has been said to be one of the best literature teachers ever, a calculus teacher who knew the stuff frontwards and back producing kids with high ap test results, a delightful medieval feast by a very conscientous fifth grade teacher, many years a go there were some behind the scenes efforts to get the chapel messages off sin sniffing and onto the nature of our loving God, their science lab is also quite above what most christian schools can afford (ok we can probably go off on where the money came from), I know you all are getting bored, but an excellent education did take place for many in spite of an evolving discipline structure.
That said, NO spiritual abuses(usually in the form of graceless discipline) that occurred are in anyway acceptable or justified in anyway! What some students are having to process in their lives now because of those abuses is a sad sad thing.
Yes, the teachers are sgm’ers, they eat drink, sleep, and speak sgm, but often they are so consumed with their subject matter that they don’t have time in the classroom for any other speak. I think it is a much healthier practice in general to separate church and school for the growing child and no child or grandchild of mine will ever go there!
August 12th, 2011 at 2:32 pm
Irv: Nice post.
Let me look at this in another way. (Please forgive the parallel, but I think it may be helpful.)
SGM and its system have been the victimizers, the perps if you please, for decades. And to all of a sudden expect the victims of this system to turn on a dime and express immediate forgiveness might be a bit much.
They’ve been the victims of those that should have cared for them most. The system and its leaders violated their trust, shattered their lives and reputations and cast them aside like unwed mothers.
Greg, are these tears of repentance? Why should you and your coworkers be trusted now after seeing such a long standing horrific track record? Unfortunately, only time will tell if it’s genuine or more spin. Expect the jury to be out for a long time.
Might I suggest, Greg, after your public extension of good will, that you seek these folks out. Don’t make them have to come to SGM (again). The stories are here, you know who they are – they are not hiding.
Some thoughts: Meet with them. And not at your CLC/SGM offices. Bring an attorney that represents the victim and pay for it. Bring a recording device at your expense and give it to the victim before you say anything.
Resist the urge to defend. Resist the urge to excuse. Resist the urge to “bring clarification”. Bring only compassion and help for the hurting. The pain can be as raw today as it was 20 years ago. Bring true repentance and grief for those that have been wounded and left by the side of the road by this authoritarian system.
Go back and purpose in your heart to change the system from within at all costs. And straighten out Bob K re: his SIL.
May we all live to see that “big red switch” thrown.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
Given that an outsider leaped “with both boots” into the discussion, Mr. Morris, let me register the following. Given TheoPrax’s post as well, I am prompted to give another perspective.
I too am an outsider. Yet, this scribe has spent hours and hours reading, re-reading, and digesting the reports. It’s fair to say 1000s of posts. Being retired and older, there is time for it. Being interested in of law, criminal justice, theology, church history, psychology, and sociology, there is warrant for serious interdisciplinay studies here…analysis. Academics, and I am one, aren’t driven off because an elite saying, “Don’t study me or my movement.” We want facts. From my observations, that has been attempted here.
The quest to privatize this doesn’t pass the smell test. If an organization wants to have blogs, conferences, write their own music, open a Pastors College, write books, create 75-100 churches, and position themselves as “the place to be,”--again, on a national level--they invite scrutinty. Waving off scrutiny when inconvenient while pressing forward on a national level is inconsistent.
This forum, in my view, occasionally gets off track. Occasionally, there are miscomms now and then. But, more often than not, there is an effort to get at the facts.
There is/has been anguish, hurt, broken confidences, abuses, autocracy, self-excusations, and more that has informed this forum. There are themes here. The reports have “been on the streets” for a long time without inquiry by SGM or CLC. What would have happened without the Detwiler documents?
Let any and all outsiders read widely before commenting.
As to Mr. Somerville, the jury is out for this scribe. But, in context, utter caution. There’s a ring of authenticity in his note, but there are wider problems with it also. Love dislikes believing anything untrue or false. Love, on the other hand, rejoices in facts, established factual patterns and fair inferences.
I think Kris’s earlier observations are wise, namely, the systemic and deeper roots that led to these problems.
Thanks to all who continue to make an honest effort at factual inquiry and honest discussion.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
I don’t want to try to influence anyone one way or the other in regards to meeting with the pastors. There has been a lot of good advice already given here. I would like to say a little something about Greg. Over ten years ago I was one of the kids in the police state environment that Kerrin talked about. Conformity was seen as a fruit of Godliness. I had so many uncomfortable meetings with Greg. I was a “negative influence of the student body.” I think when I was 16 or 17 I was “the biggest thing holding this school back from Godliness.” There were lots of corrections for not raising my hands in chapel or not smiling enough. I liked girls. My sister was pre- judged because she was sister. You all know the drill. . .This resulted in my being “asked not to come back” after 11th grade. Most of my friends were later expelled for smoking pot. My best friends was expelled before me for going to a concert, but that is a longer story. My mom has maybe set foot in CLC once since all this happened. There is a lot more to my story and I would be glad to share it with anyone who wants to know. I am probably still pretty bitter on some levels. I probably know some of you. That all being said, I think that Greg is someone who has personally repented. He apologized to me. I know he has gone to some of my friends to talk/apologize. He wrote a letter apologizing to my mom and I believe he said something like “I would understand if you never wanted to speak to me again” That was a big deal in my world because she was very bitter about my experience. (she also got invited to the things at Josh’s house). I am only speaking of Greg personally here. I can’t say if this is true of the whole institution. Like Kerrin says they have a lot to lose, but I do think things could be trending in a good way. I would like to see more public acknowledgement as well. This was all stream of consciousness so sorry for any typos or incoherence. It is good to see the blogs producing fruit. Ripples are turning into tidal waves I hope.
August 12th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
In light of all the questioning regarding Greg’s letter (which I certainly understand), one of the things that gives me hope are the several mentions of changes being discussed and perhaps slowly (I mean really slowly) made for the past few years now. Even from Mike’s letter (or was it Brian’s?), it sounds like CLC has been moving away from some common SGM thinking.
[Speculation warning...]
I could possibly see a mix of feelings from CLC pastors working behind the scenes to keep unity amongst themselves and with SGM -- disagreements behind closed doors, perhaps, while standing together publicly, slowly try to convince people and build unity. Then -- kapow! -- CLC pastors realizing it’s no longer possible to go with that approach, the time is now to begin making big changes. Some who were unconvinced become convinced, and a few that remain unconvinced leave. No that they’re gone, CLC pastors begin moving forward with plans to leave the 99 and find the 1 lost sheep.
If that’s the case, I hope they’ll serve as a strong example to other SGM churches. It’s my understanding that CLC pastors are not regular members of a CG. If that’s correct, wouldn’t it be meaningful for them to join one -- not to lead it in any way, but to sit beside those in their congregation regularly and learn from them?
August 12th, 2011 at 3:20 pm
Not to change the subject, but a few may want to check out a humorous article over at Wartburg Watch titled “Sovereign Grace Ministries: A Christian Version of Animal Farm?”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/11/sovereign-grace-ministries-a-christian-version-of-animal-farm/
August 12th, 2011 at 3:22 pm
“To everyone who thinks Greg’s open letter is sincere. Read it again and again and again, line by line. I see nothing more than a narcissistic ATTEMPT at an apology. Do NOT trust a private meeting or phone call with him. You will just keep playing into their hands”
Patti, You are a smart cookie.
If I were an CLC board member or elder, this is exactly the strategy I would have used a few years back.
Goal: Save the organization. The blog stories are getting out and money is going to start drying up soon. Damage control strategy
Trot out a pastor who was not actively involved in the “criminal activity”. Yes, it is criminal to protect a predator. Yes, what they did to exclc’er’s mom is nothing short of criminal. It was unethical and immoral how she was treated. By a “church”.
Try to keep the focus off the details because not only did they protect a predator but insisted the molester be able to be “head” of the family so they decided it was best to get some of the kids out, that the pervert was attracted to, so he can be the “head” God wants him to be. (if you are not angry with that James, something is wrong with you. Or maybe it is normal where you come from. Who knows)
And help the predator with legal bills and then help the kids be farmed out to social workers all the while the mom is in poverty and the pastors call it “self induced poverty” because she does not want to due her gender role by living with a “head” predator.
Use a bunch of compassion lingo. pretend to be real sorry and post it on the blog where the survivors read. (Do not put it on the church blog because we must minimize the damage)
Now, if our victims agree to meet:
1. We can say we tried to reconcile.
2.If the victims refuse to meet (because they have no reason to trust these timely words in the letter): We can STILL say we tried to reconcile. (Nevermind the details and where are the pastors who made these criminal decisions?)
So, we win either way when it comes to spin.
Now, this needs to happen fast because we are expecting the money not to flow so great due to the scandal.
(Don’t be foolish enough folks to think they are not real concerned about money right now. They are)
And since our people are so gullible to think the Holy Spirit just happened to convict us of our criminal, unethical, immoral and unChristian behavior all those years ago….. AFTER the current scandal became public, then we can spin this as the real thing.
And, it is working for many. Anyone who would trust these guys…I have some beautiful land in Ark for sale. We call it Whitewater.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:33 pm
And how do you all know this is not part of some larger strategy being used because of a bigger fight coming with CJ over splitting CLC?
Kerrin said it best: Past behavior is an indicator of future behavior.
(All you gotta do is see how CJ took over from Larry. All this stuff trickles down. It is inbred in the system because the foundation is following man not Christ)
If admitting to some bad decisions (they play down their disgusting behavior of protecting perverts, have you noticed?) in the past means we can convince people we are sincere and have “changed”, then it is damage control.
SGM and CLC are cultish and need to cease to exist. And they will if the money dries up and they know this. The people there are in bondage to the cult of personality and the bad system.
Ok, mean Matt is going to bow out. But don’t be so gullible, people! They have had years to be convicted by the Holy Spirit…but crickets…. until now when the blogs are becoming more and more known by current members.
Trust me, they know these stories on the blogs look real bad and they have to some kind of damage control.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:51 pm
@Matt@#177-178. I am with you on the strenuous insistence of context, context, and, after that, more context. Not as a sin-sniffer, but as a “fact-sniffer” with intense deliberation and analysis. Just the facts. You are on the trail of it. There are layers of complexities here. Someone noted earlier (and wisely), if Ex’CLCer meets with Mr. Somerville, let CLC pay her attorney expenses and court stenographer expenses for the records without any non-disclosure statements. It’s a high and sure bet that attorneys are reading these blogs and advising CLC and SGM. I’d be much displeased if Ex-CLCer, once victimized, were sucked into this only to be re-victimized by a larger strategy and used for larger ends. That would be cruel, unusual, and ungodly. But, we’ve seen indications of that already--thematically. Matt, good post.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:56 pm
Also, I went back and re-read the report of the preliminary panel by DeYoung, Ortlund and Trueman. It’s not very strong. Full of disclaimers and mitigations. I haven’t commented on that, to date. But, as an investigation, it’s pretty weak stuff and nothing for SGM to crow over. Perhaps an analysis is forthcoming. Again, it’s less than strong.
August 12th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
To 5Years in #2 : :word :goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
@ Matt: You pose some very good questions that I have wondered myself. On the other hand, there are some things going on from a different angle as well, that have not been posted on here (I think, although I am not certain, because I began to read these blogs after this “event” occurred)-ExClcer can confirm, though..Anyway, ExClcer has been writing these letters for 20 years, as she has said, with no response. Then, one day, a young man who had been just a boy, in school with my children, ran into her at a local grocery store (I will refer to him as SG). SG asks how things are, and she tells him. He was shocked, and said how he never knew what happened to us (just like many here have said). I am not certain how they continued their contact, except I knew they began exchanging emails, and this young man was very strong in his desire to speak to the pastors about what was wrongly done. ExClcer shared his emails with me, and I responded to one, having been so touched to hear someone refer to us as a widow and orphans. I wanted to let him know how important that was to me. He wrote to me as well, saying how he wanted to see the pastors go to everyone in my family personally to ask forgiveness. It was part of my response to him that I posted (#13) as part of my response to Greg. (Even though Greg did not exactly address me, I jumped in, assuming when he said ExClcer, he actually meant our entire family). So, my point is that I wonder if Greg’s response could be due to SG’s admonitions recently, and then perhaps with the shake up and some previous pastors leaving, perhaps they are actually trying to “reform”. That is why my response was that I will pray about it..Of course, being as how I am pretty sure ExClcer has previously posted that as a response to SG’s admonitions, some pastors had contacted her already, wanting to “clarify” things with her, so maybe they do not want me present at such a meeting, being as how I can come with papers of confirmation of things? And, obviously Greg is aware of the other postings in this Survivor site, so it could still be, as you have suggested, damage control.In time, Truth will come to light, and God will prevail, I am sure. In the meantime, well life still goes on, and I will not go to any meeting unless I definitely hear form God Himself, no one else! I will say, how sad it is that the men involved have to come under so much pressure before they consider and admit anything (This is NOT referring to Greg)!
August 12th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
I really wish I could hang on here for a while and digest everything that has been posted but need to leave shortly.
I just want to comment on the sexual molestation and how the difference incidences are now coming to light—for which I am truly grateful. In my mind, the sexual abuse is just the tip of the iceburg. There are SO MANY issues within the CLC/SGM framework that actually contribute to this blatant disrespect of women and children. Those are the core issues….the sexual abuse is a biproduct. I hope I’m making sense here. I pray that the root issues will be brought to light and dealt with. The issues, for example, that imply women and men are not equal heirs in the Kingdom of God…the total patriarchal mindset and emphasis that frequently manifests in sexual abuse situations.
I pray that the core issues are revealed and people get their minds right (to quote a line from “Cool Hand Luke”), as well as their hearts. There is a lot of twisted “learned behavior” going on here. Enough to keep many therapy practices in business forever.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
@Pampy: “There is a lot of twisted “learned behavior” going on here. Enough to keep many therapy practices in business forever.”
:amen
August 12th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
A word to Ex-CLCer and Ex-CLCer Mom. I offer my unsolicited suggestion. Utter caution.
1. Mr. Somerville writes in behalf of 16-18 Pastors at CLC for a meeting to hear the story/stories. I think that is commendable. He’s reaching out on behalf of CLC Pastors, not just as a single voice. He writes, “In behalf of…” A single voice for all the CLC Pastors.
2. However, there is a CLC-SGM dispute in development, as the resignation letters evince. There is a vacuum of sorts. That sucks people in. Caution, Ma’am. I say that as a retired Marine and on my word of honour.
3. There is a strategic advantage to CLC hearing your story, entering your long-held pain and anguish (with some credit and to their credit), and emerging on the other side as sensible and honourable men, willing to ask for forgivenness. A “PR” coup. Also, willing to “make a good show.” Again, caution. There may legitimacy here in the mix.
4. However, I would be extremely cautious about getting pulled into a larger and strategic game here. Of “being used.” I would utterly hate to see you “be used” for the bigger agenda. I recommend you ponder Matt’s warnings.
5. If I were considering such a meeting, I would test their honour. I would make them show fruits of repentance. “Deeds, not words.” This scribe would insist on these things:
(a) Let me pick an attorney of my own.
(b) CLC will pick up the tab for that attorney.
(c) Put stenographers in the room, at CLC’s expense. After all, Mahaney pulls down $250,000/year plus. After the resignations of two CLC Pastors, Bradshaw and Chesemore, CLC has the monies.
(d) There will be no non-disclosure statements, but the records will be available for public review. I’d bet $1000 that CLC Pastors would not allow this. They want silence. Test them and see.
I won’t address you again, directly, on the matter. You’ve had anguishes beyond description. However, you are dealing with a mega-operation with concerns of $100,000s of dollars at stake…product diminishment, sales diminishment, and discreditation SGM sees it. CLC sees it. With this, I’ll close. For the love of God, for the love of your own peace, for the love of the larger SGM culture and others watching, do not allow yourself to be revictimized. If you do allow that, that is your choice. But, I dare to speak without your solicitation. Be of good cheer whatever the decision. “His Majesty, Three-in-One, gets it…in full and without error.” Best regards too.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
These blogs effectively fired warning shots in the air over the heads of SGM leaders and this has now majorly contributed to huge exposure of SGM’s failures and dangers. The veil of deception has been pulled back dramatically and many, many people will look at SGM with a healthy skepticism for a long time.
Here is my current sadness and fear, however. Having fired the warning shots that stirred up this current season of evaluation and confrontation, the blogs are also fully capable of shooting real repentance and change in the foot. Will it really be helpful to shout “Not good enough!” to the first steps of what everyone has been begging for here for years?
I am a full skeptic and critic of SGM and SGM leadership, and my personal story with my family (if shared) would give me full credibility that I am never defensive of nor tolerant of SGM or SGM practices; but I must confess that I am saddened and confused that so many here seem as eager to punish SGM (or at least CLC) leaders when they try to do the right thing as when they clearly did the wrong thing. If you want to claim you have the right be this angry and distrustful -- I won’t argue with you -- but if you think this is the way to foster real openness, repentance, change, and restitution in the future, then I believe you are going to be sadly disappointed. Don’t give them an easy excuse to tune out your voices again.
Some of you will make me out to be the enemy because I am simply challenging all of us to be a ware of the effects of our words, but you will be wrong. You have no idea how eager I am to have the truth about all of SGM exposed (it has only scratched the surface so far).
If the loud assumption is that GS is most likely manipulative and insincere in his letter, then we shouldn’t expect many more letters or efforts in the direction of hurt people.
I am very grateful that the times that I myself have expressed repentance, sadness, and initiative to help – that I was received with joy and eagerness (even before I had time to fully re-earn their trust) by those who deserved my repentance. Don’t say that repentance isn’t genuine if circumstances put people in a corner – or few of our testimonies of how the Holy Spirit cornered our souls would still hold weight.
I realize that full trust requires proven new patterns of behavior -- I will not trust most of these SGM men for a long time, and only when it is truly earned -- but I sure hope that the times I might need to write a letter like Greg has written – it is received with warmth and appreciation.
I am with JIm and Guy – this is a historic and admirable moment (that, yes, it requires a ton of active and sincere follow-through). Even if we are doubtful, the changes will not come if those trying to begin changing are greeted with responses that sound like a series of “Ya, right! Like you really mean that.” Maybe they don’t mean it. We’ll see. But if they do -- the beginning would have to look just like this.
I repeat, if you knew my own story, you would not dare tell me that I only am saying this because I have not been sufficiently slandered, manipulated, pummeled, and repeatedly damaged by SGM and its leaders.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Christian beware:
Dialoguing with a cult is not wise.
‘Nuff said. Good posts, Matt.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
@ Donald Philip Veitch; Thank you, for your very sound advice. I agree, that if it is true remorse to be expressed, your suggestions should not be a problem for the pastors there. I could possibly even get my lawyer from back in that day, as I still call her once in a while. Even then, though, all I really want to know is, as Pampy says (#183) that “core issues” are dealt with, and changes are made that promotes honesty and support of victims. I also wonder why they would not be resolving their in house issues before they reach out to us, so they could reach out to us in a more solid way. I dont know-just thought. I am not quick to any action on this matter-it has been 20 years so far, I do not in any way feel pressured to jump and make any decision in a day/week/even month! I will wait on God for this one, because I CAN!
August 12th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
@Adullam’s Cave and @Matt:
Ergo, the great wisdom evinced in both posts. The poles or opposites are expressed. Indeed, there must be room for repentance, structural reforms and an outreach. Jim has noted the historicity of the moment. Yet, Matt, has indicated wisdom also in his warnings.
I think the time is at hand for a recorded and transcribed record to be had. If repentance is real, genuine and for the sake of all, let that be recorded for the public…especially since SGM has sought so earnestly for a national forum and voice. Let CLC lead by having the records made open, not hidden.
If the CLC Pastors approved that, they would win the day. Honesty and openness would be affirmed. The CLC Pastors could ruminate on the written records, not something “spirited away” into “he said/she said” debates. They could put some of these stories to rest. Let them be tested.
If I were in command, I’d say, “Let it be recorded” and my decisions will be based on the written record of memory. I’d say, “Honesty, openness, and integrity” will be the basis for future decisions.
Adullam and Matt, I embrace both perspectives in earnest.
August 12th, 2011 at 4:52 pm
CJ’s latest blog post:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/2011/08/12/A-Personal-Update.aspx
August 12th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
I attended CLC for years. I’ve had enough experience and first hand interaction with GS to know his qualifications as a pastor and intermediary. He is the LAST person on the planet I would enlist to go any where near these issues. He’s not qualified to hold the position he holds now and the fact this isn’t obvious to CLC pastors is both stunning and not surprising. Almost all of them are in over their heads. They don’t have the education or sound biblical perpspective to provide real help. I’m sure they feel sincere and qualified, but many who know them well would say otherwise.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
@Ex-CLCers Mom:
I wasn’t going to address you or your daughter directly, but you responded directly. So I must, given your response.
“Ma’am,” am an old horse Marine and retired officer. When I say, “Ma’am,” it is respect. It means you are my senior. I am a retired Colonel, so you get the sense. You are “Ma’am.” You have witnessed and born much hell, for your daughter and the Grandpuppies. It beggars the imagination. You get a salute and respect here. I’ve been to war. I’ve seen hell too. Buried men too. Full military honours. Yet, your psychological and spiritual anguishes are hell. Again, my salute to you, your daughter and the Grandpuppies. May their be redemption in all this…to wit, that the Grandchildren, one day, may arise and say: “Based upon the written record, honour and decency was done by CLC and SGM. They acquitted themselves as honest Christians.” If I were a Grandparent (I got a 4-yr old Grandson), I would want them to look back and say, “CLC and SGM acted with honour and integrity.” You deserve that as a Grandmum. Your daughter deserves that. The Grandpups deserve that record.
I’d call that lawyer and see if she’s available. I’d insist that CLC pay all attorney’s fees. I’d insist on an open record with no non-disclosure statements. That would serve you, your daughter, the little Grandpups, CLC, SGM and the nation--their targetted audience--with truth and records. If I were in command, I would order it. Then correct the deficienices based on the record. Repent, based on the record. And order the changes.
I’d test CLC’s determination to be honourable.
I wish you all the best. My concern is with you: your daughter’s suffering, but also those lads and lasses. The lads and lasses matter here for a few generations. Let the children see honour, integrity, courage and bravery. That’s the stuff of Christian history, not to mention U.S. Marines.
My best regards, Ma’am.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:13 pm
@ Donald Philip Veitch; Thank you, Sir, and much respect to you as well. My son served in the Marines at the beginning of this most recent war, out of Camp Pendelton (He marched up the East side of Baghdad). You men are my heroes! His time in the Marines put him around men he could respect, to help shape him into the wonderful man he is today. Thank you for your sound advice.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:16 pm
Great post, Mr Veitch, and thank you for your service. God bless you and yours.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:21 pm
ExCLCer’s Mom:
1. Semper Fi to your son. I understand the 1st Marine ops in Gulf War 2. My salute to him and his fellow Marines.
2. You hold the cards here on a national level, I might add. You, your daughter and the Grandpups are in command. My focus would be the Grandchildren, one Grandparent to another. The focus is them. To redeem this horror requires full truth, honour, and decency. Anything shy of that is cowardice.
3. Stenographer, attorney, and a public record--for the nation to digest.
4. $50,000 dollars/per Grandchild by CLC, as restitution, to a 529-college fund. For pain, anguish, and suffering. Let the children see the written records and see “repentance meet with fruits.” Not cheap talk.
Best regards, you’ve all done tremendous work in potentially bringing reform where corruptions existed. Test the talk and see if they “walk the walk.” Best regards, especially to the Grandpups.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:36 pm
Let’s not forget SGMnot, and that family, who will certainly post when they are ready (mentioned they will be posting this weekend in an earlier blog). I feel pretty certain more victims will “come out of the woodwork”, as I even remind myself of the young 14 yr old girl that ExClcer brought up on an earlier post. She actually came into the Fairfax Church as a foster child, yet was coerced into a sexual relationship with the husband, then sent out here to CLC (where I met her), and was continually plummeted with accusations that she “had a spirit of adultery attached to her”, etc. I remember those times with her! Yes, my family is certainly not the only ones holding cards here! I would like to think the whole entire hand is in God’s hands (although, I know my daughter would beg to differ)! I think they should have to have some fund for victims that is not administered by them, perhaps?
August 12th, 2011 at 5:39 pm
Adullam said : “Having fired the warning shots that stirred up this current season of evaluation and confrontation, the blogs are also fully capable of shooting real repentance and change in the foot. Will it really be helpful to shout “Not good enough!” to the first steps of what everyone has been begging for here for years?”
My answer? Yes, it will still do good for prevention of further abuse and if the confession and repentance (if that is in Greg’s statement) is heartfelt, not just ego felt, then the apology will improve. If it deteriorates because of our mistrust then that is proof it was merely narcissistic in nature. I don’t need to know these men personally to dissect their words. AND, to be more cruel, even IF/WHEN they can get an apology right, caution for a time is in order. I would stop my criticism of the actual words. But if they come from a narcissist, it would not be long before you hear those words recanted.
But a truly healthy repentant person will continue forever to say sorry with out excuse and do all that is in their power to make restitution. Again, true repentance will withstand unkindness from this forum.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:46 pm
I was abused but survived to confront my abusers. But when I did that it wasnt the evil people I expected. They were mostly misled and misinformed.
I look at it like medicine in the old days. Doctors used to bleed people and often bled them to death. But that was not the goal. They just worked under a misunderstanding and came from a background (med school) that said “this is the best way to do it”. I see many of the pastors the same way.
They lived in an organization that taught something that was very wrong. They picked up the tools and the lingo. They damaged people, but I dont believe that was their goal.
The first docs to give up bleeding faced the same kind of resistance that Greg is facing. He has seen that the old ways were not helpful and has tried to change paths. He can never apologize for the harm done to people by bleeding them, sometimes to death. Some of you will never ever ever forgive or forget. But that doesnt mean Greg doesnt feel some remorse.
And SGM and CLC did these things for years but that doesnt mean they cant/wont change.
I think if you read the posts and comments and docs carefully, you are seeing a small shift in the “iron curtain” that was SGM/CLC. Remember that Josh took over just 6.5 years ago. And we hear from the SILs that there have been disagreements on SGM for over two years!!?!!? It looks like Josh saw the writing on the wall and was slowly taking small measures to change the direction of a very large ship. That slow and gradual course correction was massively accelerated when Brent’s documents hit the net.
So now you see the big ship coming about, and not just the man at the helm is changing course but at least one other guy on the ship appears to be doing the same thing. These things take time. Pray they succeed, but give them time. The bleeding has stopped but the full correction is yet to come.
August 12th, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Ma’am, ExCLEer’s Mom:
Indeed, re: SGMnot also. Or, others.
This much, I suspect CLC or SGM has attorneys reading this. Also, giving them counsel behind the scenes. There may be “civil actions” that are warranted in terms of “reckless endangerment,” “statutory rape,” “obstruction of justice,” “aiding and abetting” as well as ministry malfeasance that brought compensable harms.
Also, this much, I wouldn’t be going into some meeting with Mr. Somerville without an attorney or without a stenographer. If CLC allows it, I’d accept it, provided the records would be available to the public.
Honourable, honest, and repentant Churchmen would clear the record by upfront, honest, and recorded statements replete with restitution as needed. There’s a reason Mahaney objected to the blogs. There’s a reason why he disagrees with “points of disagreement” (plural) with CLC while looking forward to “months” of mediation between CLC and SGM through the “Ambassadors or Reconciliation.”
My concern for you, your daughter and the Grandchildren is to avoid “being played” or “used.” Let them “walk the walk.” Honest jurors will clear the perps if they make restitution, amends and evince vehement repentance.
August 12th, 2011 at 6:09 pm
@Patti #198--I cannot agree with you more in your description. It is full of common sense!!
I have no connection to SGM or an SGM church. Diane is my real name. I have been reading the past 2 weeks and have commented once before about how horrible these tragic stories are that I have been reading about and how appalled I am at the treatment you have received. You have experienced much, much more than “deep disappointment in the pastoral care you received.” It appears there was little of what one would define as pastoral care offered. That does seem not genuine to me. A more acurate description would be shocking injustices. Shedding a few tears with you all…just want you to know that.
I so very much agree with Patti #198. That has been in the back of my mind since I first read the apology. Not good enough. It is the “doing all that is in their powers to make restitution” part that should be looked for. Not words, although they are a start and in this case a nominal start, imo. Thank you for listening to an outsider.
August 12th, 2011 at 6:10 pm
If I wronged someone, I would stand by, “man up”, and take whatever consequence was to come my way, trusting only God to make it as hard or easy as I needed it to be. A lawyer could not change my mind, nor fear of losing money or respect-whatever it took to rectify the situation as best as possible. Unfortunately, I know many do not feel this way. That is between them and God and I will not waste my time to be “played” or “used”, for I have much better things to spend my energy on. I only became interested in even reading the blogs because it was brought to my attention of some dear children who were unknowingly put at risk with this offender, because no one knows. I may not be able to make a difference for all the children in the world, but I will work to make as much of a difference to as many as I can!
August 12th, 2011 at 6:27 pm
Did anyone catch the link from Sidney (#191) that CJ, Dave Harvey and Jeff Purswell are all now in Santa Domingo doing a conference?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!???? Who cares that it was planned in the spring! I continue to state that THESE GUYS DO NOT GET IT!!!
August 12th, 2011 at 6:32 pm
Donald Philip Veitch: I have been reading these posts for some time and haven’t been inclined to contribute, but I must address you. Thank you. Thank you for addressing my mother with such respect and thank you for providing such wise council. To show concern and attempt to help someone in need without having possibility for personal gain is admirable. Too many of us merely watch tragedy unfold and shake our heads over what a shame it is. We all have a responsibility to help each other and I respect you for that. I’m an Army war vet myself (Afghanistan) and I must say, I like your style. :)
August 12th, 2011 at 6:42 pm
#77 -- ExCLCer says (below) what i was feeling last night when I first read what Kris posted from Greg, but couldn’t put into words. (The part about “being disappointed with the pastoral care you received” reminds me of a manager trying to smooth things over for a disappointing experience at a restaurant or something.)
And Donald! Some great posts there -- especially #186 -- the part about CLC dealing with resignations & other problems right now -- very very good point!!
You also said what I wanted to last night, but I was tired & was too busy sputtering to get out all the words of what I was feeling about this letter:
:goodpost
August 12th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
exCLCer’s Mom, you said in response to Donald:
That’s a GREAT idea!!!!! :clap :clap :clap
August 12th, 2011 at 6:46 pm
@Mike Phila@#203. I caught your exact point, or, Sidney’s @#191.
Joshua Harris just tweeted at about 1917 EST, or 723 P.M. EST, the following”
“Joshua Harris
At the Skins game with my boy courtesy of the Brewer Family. Go Steelers!”
I tweeted back, shortly thereafter:
“DPhilipVeitchDonald@@HarrisJosh //A brave post given the disorders of SGM.”
August 12th, 2011 at 6:55 pm
#207 -- I don’t know, Donald, but if I were Josh’s wife, I’d sure want my husband to “serve” his son (and me) by being a dad every once in a while.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Ex-CLCer’s Sister2:
Wow! (1) I take it that your brother was the one in 1st Marine ops into eastern Baghdad? You are his sister? (2) And, as to you, an Army Vet to boot. Eegads, overwhelmed to be in the presence of fellow Veterans, I truly am. I’m at home with Vets. I’m retired at Camp Lejeune. We have many wonderful Veterans here, not to mention those brave men and women at the “Wounded Warriors Hospital” here. You, your brother and these Vets know what “courage” means. (3) Not sure whether to say “Hooah” or “OOR-RAH.” Either way, a salute to you, your brother and the other noble Vets. Folks like you give hope, even to us old retired guys. At this point, however, I cannot say that re: SGM or CLC. Talk is talk. At the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy in NYC, the saying over the arch is “Non verba sed acta,” meaning, “Not words, but deeds.”
As to the issues at hand, it is important that the Grandpuppies see a few things. I am sure your Mum must agree. (1) Despite the horrors, there are honourable men and women of faith. (2) Despite the horrors, there were honourable and courageous men and women who set the record straight…who let there be written and open records, who adjudicated guilt, and made honourable restitution including financial arrangements as needed. Your Mum’s assumed concerns for her Grandpups (I speak as a Grandfather) must rule the school. These Grandchildren must see “honour, honesty, courage, bravery and committment to the Gospel of verifiable fruits of repentance and faith.” CLC and SGM needs to demonstrate that beyond any reasonable doubt and must present that message to Grandchildren, your nephews and nieces. If these CLC and SGM fails in this, that must be recorded. We must tell the truth to the next generation. (4) If that should fail, may those Grandchildren see that some fought for these issues.
This much, as a fellow Veteran, you know the code. “Honour, courage and committment.” Without that, one cannot lead. You’ve got the big picture. Best regards and Semper Fi to an Afghan Veteran. As Vets, we have a bond that only we understand. Regards.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:06 pm
@Jewel. Point noted. Point conceded. True.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:14 pm
#203 yup those 3 are out on SGM business…how does that jive w/ CJ’s leave of absence (or whatever they are calling it)?? Ridiculous!!
August 12th, 2011 at 7:19 pm
nick of time 199…thoughtful analogy. I hope you turn out to be right. The firsthand reports of Greg starting a few years ago to seek out former students to apologize do give him credibility. On the other hand, the fine US Marines scepticism here is wise.
Time will tell.
Totally off topic next, just for brother B….
Yo, Breeezley……..
haha, I am a good Reformed diehard amilenniallist (and yeah I think I read enough debates on eschatology over the years to build a bonfire to the moon)…..
But you know what? We amils believe that at the end of the mil which we are in now, Satan is unloosed for a period of time leading to Gog-Magog and the man of lawlessness, and I for one would not be the least surprised if that happens in the next 3-5 years. Maybe sooner, maybe later. So I have no problem with you guessing a 15-20 year time frame. Very reasonable given 4 billion people tied into the electic grid for existence, and so many nukes, econ collapse, peak aquafers in much of the world, not to mention many other factors. I’ll be surprised if we have that long.
Here is a site you might love, I have been checking it daily for months. It is some Christian guy tracking earth changes and especially volcanic activity which is at a huge (double at least) historic maximum the past year. You’d have to scroll back over the past weeks for much of the volcano stuff. The site has every earthquake, every disaster, every solar flare. (He’s not a pretribber.) Best site of its kind on the web far as I know.
http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/
August 12th, 2011 at 7:20 pm
Honestly, based on my own experiences with an abusive church (not SGM): I think this is kind of “Run, don’t walk, to the nearest exit!”
perhaps I’m overly suspicious, but time will tell if this is genuine or not. However, I think it’s best to stand up sand say “We wronged you” rather than use lots of buzzwords. (And i am trying to cut the fella some slack, since he’s likely been using buzzwords for a long, long time.)
Still… spin, imo. and, as Kerrin also said, CYA.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:27 pm
For Remnant: FANTASTIC BROTHER!!! Its so nice to meet a completed member of His tribe that is looking and longing for His return. Let me recommend http://www.omegaletter.com. Jack Kinsella writes a daily newsletter that looks at current events in the light of Biblical prophecy. I cannot recommend it highly enough. If you are longing for His return reading Jack will show you how close we truly are to “seeing Him face to face”. Maranatha
August 12th, 2011 at 7:28 pm
exCLCer’s sister2,
Thank you for your service, and God bless all of you.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:38 pm
Just wanted to weigh in on a few things…..
First, I want to commend Josh and the pastors who are sticking with him regarding their convictions for the future and the repentance and changes they need to make. I have said this before, if the pastors at Kingsway would have responded similarly, they likely would have kept the church from imploding and the sheep from being scattered over every hillside. Unfortunately, the pastors at Kingsway did not have ears to hear what God and hundreds of members of KWCC were saying. The many brave and courageous members who made valiant efforts to challenge and appeal to the leaders in a multitude of face to face meetings have now moved on, and what is left, for the most part, are those who have chosen to believe whatever the pastors say, including Mickey’s last message, which was pitiful in reflecting honesty and integrity regarding the sins and charges against the pastors at Kingsway.
Btw, current Kingsway members, if you want to hear the truth of what actually happened, why not ask Steve, Buddy, or myself. We were there. Mickey was not. What has been disconcerting and sad is that current Kingsway members have never bothered to ask the abused any questions. Instead, they simply accept what they are told (without question), but alas, that is the nature of being and remaining deceived, oppressed, and in spiritual bondage.
Anyway, back to Josh and CLC……..
My brothers and sisters at CLC, you have an entirely different situation. Your leaders have chosen to admit, confess, and attempt to bring resolution regarding the grievous sins that have been perpetrated on God’s people by the SGM paradigm/doctrine. We at Kingsway and other churches in SGM did not have that good fortune. I would strongly encourage the members of CLC to continue to ask difficult but relevant questions and to give their support accordingly. I have been extremely encouraged by the reports I’ve heard regarding some of the brave and courageous brothers and sisters who have resisted the fear of man and man-pleasing and instead have put forth excellent questions and/or statements that are not only serving the pastors and members at CLC but many others who continue to be in SGM churches but need clarity and the scales to fall from their eyes. To those CLC members who are holding ground, your courage is exemplary and inspiring and will ultimately help many others be set free from the bondage, deceit, and oppression that has and continues to characterize SGM. Your brothers and sisters are battling for you in prayer and are always excited to hear news from the frontlines where you are now engaged in a worthy and noble cause.
To the CLC pastors I have a recommendation,
You have stated that your intention is for the members of CLC to select members from the church to represent the church regarding future issues and discussions. I believe you indicated the process to be 1) the church selecting some members to be considered for the 20 member group, 2) ultimately, the pastors approving the final 20 members that constitute the final group, 3) presenting the pastor approved group (20) before the members of CLC for the churches affirmation.
My appeal to the pastors is that they consider that if their intention is to have a group who represents the members of the larger body at CLC, then it should be the members of CLC who “put them forward” in the first place, and it should likewise be the CLC members who select the final 20, not the pastors. If the pastors are ultimately selecting the final 20, a conflict of interest can easily be unnecessarily created. Besides, this smells much like the old SGM way of doing business. Also, one important question the congregation will need to ask is whether the 20 people chosen to give input at CLC have any ultimate decision-making power or are they just there to voice their opinions. In other words, do the pastors have veto power over what the 20 determine?
I believe the bible teaches that it is the congregation who puts forward those who will lead them (pastors/ elders) i.e., Acts 1, 6, and there seems to be biblical precedent for other applications regarding this principle i.e., Acts 6 for example.
I do not know to what extent Josh and the pastors at CLC are planning to embrace the biblical truth that the local congregation has the ultimate responsibility and authority in these matters, but to the extent they move in this direction, the greater support you (the members of CLC) should give them. In my opinion, if they balk or become resistant to the notion that it is ultimately the members of CLC who have biblical warrant to choose those who will lead them (pastors/elders), as well as the church’s prerogative, responsibility , and authority to remove them if necessary, then I would encourage the members to raise your voices and let your thoughts be made known.
CLC members, you…. along with your pastors are ultimately responsible for what your church will look like, not the pastors apart from the CLC members. This is what got us in this pickle in the first place. Remember, the Body of Christ is the manifest presence, power, and authority of Jesus on the earth today. The church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, not an impotent, anemic group of people who cower in the corner. The church has ultimate authority in its affairs. Please remember this as you go forward. The onus of responsibility is in your hands. Many of us who have left SGM are now in the good of this freedom and have vibrant, robust, and courageous pastors and elders in the churches we now attend. We affirm biblical leadership but we also, with equal passion, affirm a vibrant, robust and courageous local body of believers. This can be true of CLC as well, but as Jeremiah said, first many things need to be plucked up, broken down, destroyed and overthrown before they can be built and planted anew. Jeremiah 1:10. May God be with you!
Your brother in Christ, Mole
August 12th, 2011 at 7:40 pm
“#207 – I don’t know, Donald, but if I were Josh’s wife, I’d sure want my husband to “serve” his son (and me) by being a dad every once in a while.”
And tweet everyone about it, too? (wink)
August 12th, 2011 at 7:42 pm
@Notgoingback@#211. You asked: “#203 yup those 3 are out on SGM business…how does that jive w/ CJ’s leave of absence (or whatever they are calling it)?? Ridiculous!!”
A simple question, “…how does that jive w/ CJ’s leave of absence…?”
Simple answer. It’s doesn’t jive. It’s a lie. A wash. A “shuck-and-jive-manouever.” Call it what it is.
Unfortunately, children can see this. We must live honourably and truthfully, for “their sake’s.” As an old man, we must tell the children and the grandchildren the full truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Whether we are believed or not does not matter. God adjudicates that. We must be a people of honour and integrity, especially as older folks.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:43 pm
DPV and exCLC’er’smom,
Hope I can add my dear daughter, Joanna, by proxy to the list. She served in the Marine Corps (Parris Island not Pendelton) and spent a tour of duty in Ramadi,Iraq. She was in Logistics and worked out of a bathroom in one of Sadaam’s old palaces.
I wish to thank all of you for your service
August 12th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
“Your leaders have chosen to admit, confess, and attempt to bring resolution regarding the grievous sins that have been perpetrated on God’s people by the SGM paradigm/doctrine”
Not exactly.
Admit? So far they have only admitted to not providing “care”…whatever that means. No wrong behavior for the grievous sins committed toward the mom and children nor the sin of protecting a predator to the point of helping him with legal bills and the heinous sin of believing a predator should be “head” of the family with the childrenand wife submitting to evil.
You are putting words in their mouths they have not uttered.
Confess? To what? Not providing “care”?
Resolution? To meet so they can say sorry?
Lots of people are jumping the gun here on what this letter means. I think this is because it is so rare for the leaders to admit to much of anything so people leap to conclusions that quite simply are not there.
This jumping the gun only shows me how much influence these guys have over people. Even people who have left.
They are thanking you for jumping the gun and interpreting their “content free” words for them. Means it worked. Be careful, friends, you could very well be enabling more evil.
August 12th, 2011 at 7:54 pm
@DB, of course your daughter must be added. DB, for your daughter, but all Marines, past and present. A salute to Joanna. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh5OlT-cslQ Have taken the USA and USMC flag down for the evening. As old Vets, we play this tune regularly around here. Marines “never lose their nerve” in war is a motto, although we know fear, disfigurement, disabilities and death. This is why the Vets here dislike cowardice, of any branch. Thanks DB. Lest others are forgotten, including WW2, Vietnam, Gulf 1, or Gulf 2 Vets, you are not forgotten by this old Marine. I hope Christian leaders and Churchmen can match, in terms of honour, courage and committment, that of our Vets. The Vets, as well as their families, understand. We’ve been there, done that, have the coffee mug, T-shirt and ballcap too. Many a conflict.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:07 pm
@Mole @ #216:
Question or clarification. Is it your witness and testimony, before His Sovereign Majesty, that 100s were disillusioned and departed from Kingsway? Yes or no works.
Can you provide a summary of the issues for the record?
Time frame? Relationship to CJ, Dave Harvey or other key players?
As to the other points in your post, they are noted and merit commendation. (I had the same question about the 20 for CLC.)
August 12th, 2011 at 8:11 pm
to quote a friend of mine who is new to CLC…..
“it’s like CLC has been constipated with it’s leadership issues, secrecy, lack of structures for 20 years, so now it’s having a big explosion and things have to keep moving out”.
So the #%$ has now hit the fan…
Donald’s advice sounds good to me. If they don’t agree to those terms, then they really aren’t that sorry, are they?
August 12th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
Matt -- Forgive me if you’ve answered this before, but were you ever part of SGM? Did you ever know any of the pastors (or CGLs for that matter) personally? What were your impressions of them then?
August 12th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
Irv #149
“It is my hope and prayer for Josh, Greg and other SG pastors is to make your focus on the victims and the Lord and not about yourselves (self protection, self justification, false humility, etc). As much as these are deeply emotional things, I don’t believe people will be won over by tears and how bad YOU feel, but how you take personal responsibility; to not use words that deflect but are open and honest in which you own your actions, behavior and words. It is not a time to figure out percentages of responsibility.’
I love your post, well said. And pseudonym.. yes these things must be in their face and unrelentlessly because this will take time. This “culture” has been around for 30 years. Gregg may be convicted and has been going to others etc. but he has not confessed sins that would disqualify him from being a pastor. This is not really even about Gregg, and it is not about his humility or his desire to reconcile. This culture is going to change certainly, and small steps will help, but without the Holy Spirit and these men giving up the controls, they will just move their “culture” to an all of Grace culture and err on that side.
If these men were going to apologize for their sins, I think they would have done it by now. They have much to think about if they do and must count the cost. It seems the only ones that will apologize are the ones that are not responsible. Otherwise, they are liable, they are responsible for restitution.
I will not trust anything they say or do, or any change that they make if it is not made on a new foundation. It can not be re-built this way. How would we trust men who are more fearful of the law and being liable, than they are of The ONE who can can throw their bodies into hell.
This note from Gregg, is a heartfelt note like many others on here and none of them will change clc. or SGM.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:49 pm
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Reference/SGMFinancialStatements_FY2010.pdf Here is another reason to study accounting, corporate law, business law and forensic accounting. There’s alot hidden in this complex document. It’s required by law to forge this.
There are millions in assets. Meanwhile, CJ with “his 4 month leave of absence” is in Santa Domingo. He’s lapping up $250,000/year, not to mention book royalties or honorariums. Detwiler recommended that CJ be reduced to $80,000 per month over this 4-month period. CJ’s not in a some backwoods, cheap hotel in Santa Domingo either. Nor is Dave Harvey. SGM is a huge operation. They take in millions from the churches. SGM isn’t happy with the noises, assuredly, and they hope the noise goes away.
That’s why I posted my cautionary critique at #91. The substantive inconsistency, if not sophmoric contradiction, of Mr. Somerville’s email/post (whatever else one thinks of it) and yet a CLC-blogger--simultaneously--waving off inquiry, analysis and deliberation(Mr. Harris?) over Detwiler documents and the Survivor Blogs. Longingforheaven had the “forensic scent” on the trail and a hat tip to him or her.
This is precisely why this scribe offered strenuous counsel of caution. Be “fact sniffers.” I wouldn’t go near Mr. Somerville without an attorney, stenographer, and consent to open documents. Watch CLC and SGM, like Mahaney, run for the hills at that suggestion.
Mr. Mahaney won’t like tough-minded analysts or cross-examiners. We’re beginning to get a real good picture of him.
August 12th, 2011 at 8:49 pm
X-posting from SGM Refuge:
I’ve stated many times in the past that SGM pastors are hireling shepherds and pharisaical, based on their repeated behaviors. I’ve called upon Mr. Mahaney to repent.
Now that our collective words – helped immeasurably by Brent’s document trove – have produced at least the beginning of the desired effect (repentance and change), I’m praying and thanking God for the changes.
Someone posted on Survivors a list of the changes we’ve seen since the beginning of July; reading them all at once was like getting hit upside the head. Things are definitely changing, folks. It could be that we’ll look back on the events of July and August as the collapse of SGM’s Berlin Wall.
I have to agree with Jim and Guy, in their calls for thankfulness and some civility in how we respond to the efforts of GS and Joshua Harris. These guys are blinking in the sunlight, as they’re being led out of Plato’s Cave. I believe they’re sincere but still feeling their way, as God continues to shine light into their hearts. Let’s not trip them and laugh, as they try to find their footing.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
Keepinstep, I love your allusion to Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave” — very appropriate. It takes a while to learn to see again out here in the sun.
August 12th, 2011 at 9:56 pm
Donald, have really enjoyed your posts today. Thank you sir for getting the most important part of my earlier post. That quote was taken from a blog on the members side and signed merely ‘by the pastors’. Seriously I want so much to cheer for them as they pursue reconciliation but how can they put out stuff like that simultaneously?
Unfortunately with SGM, there seems to always be two realities always operating at SGM. The problem for the unhappy member who has remotely come into an awareness of their own mind is that these two realities are as violently opposed to one another as darkness is to light.
ExCLCer Mom, you have so much wisdom and I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing your thoughts.
ExCLC … #51 Amazing. I love that analogy!
August 12th, 2011 at 10:02 pm
GS has spoken about being an abuse victim himself.
GS’s child plays/played in a band mentioned here.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:04 pm
A couple points of clarification,
I understand from Corby Megorden — another Family Life pastor at CLC — that “Yes [Mr. A] is a member who has strict accountability guidelines including informing any parents of children that he interacts with of his past so they can decide their level of interaction.” This has been confirmed as well as by one of the other adult band members (there are several) and from Mrs. A.
Also, evidently the camping trips were not associated with the band, but families camping together.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:07 pm
DPV…I just saw that over at Brent’s blog. SGM had over 2 million in investments the last fiscal year-mutual funds, CDs, bonds.
I understand a big church needing big savings in case the heating system has to be replaced, or the AC, or the roof…..but what would an oversight organization need 2 million in savings for? Seriously, am I missing something? How much does SGM need in savings for emergencies? Would they want this to bail out a mortgage if a church folded or what? Do they own other church buildings? If I’m thinking this is greed and love of money, can anybody explain why I am wrong?
Notice the paragraph at the bottom of page 8- SGM and CLC have a mutual contract about the use of the building, and either party has to give TWO YEARS notice to terminate. The church would have to pay out big bucks to SGM no later than 18 months before leaving if they wanted to stay. So looks like Josh is probably there to stay. That’s fine, looks like SGM will be there too. The board is stuck with Josh, like it or not.
This is faster paced and crazier than a best selling novel……
August 12th, 2011 at 10:10 pm
Oh, and did you notice they took in 363+ thousand in 2010 from conferences? A third of a million?
Those conferences are big business.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:11 pm
I was “aware” of ex-clcer’s story (i knew her mom a little) but not the daughter. All I knew or was “aware” of was the following: (This man did something sexually inappropriate with one of his step-daughters and the pastors were handling it. He would be doing jail time to pay for his crime. The wife refuses to forgive and is leaving the church--and the family is being split up.) That is it. that’s all i knew..I am so sorry for not knowing more, doing more, supporting YOU exclcer’s mom and being a true Christian to the hurting and fatherless..I was in your church, 27 and single and caught up in my own little world..when I did ask questions I felt guilty for gossiping and slander and not trusting God to use the pastors to “handle” the situation. after all, I wasn’t “part of the problem or solution.” But now I realize I could have been part of the SOLUTION! I could have called the mom, i had the phone directory, I could have helped w/those kids, i could have done so much..the church failed in this instance big time and there is nothing we can do to make up for those years…but on behalf of the members, too afraid to ask hard questions for fear of gossip, too self-absorbed to get involved by helping the mom and those precious kids, I am so sorry.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Okay, now I am getting hot! I’m sorry, but that is an outright lie about Mr. A! Now, I can see there is not good coming from all of this. I am sorry. This is the same reason I have had to fight so hard for so many years.
I have personally talked to someone whose 12 year old daughter was on that camping trip, who had NO IDEA OF ANY SUCH PAST HISTORY! That is entirely what has prompted me to begin to post here! Thsi person, and her child is very, very dear to me. I would love to share more on how God brought us together recently, and all of the history, because it is truly such a miracle, but I have suggested to her that we stay “low key” about our renewed relationship, because I do not want to cause conflict in her life right now, and I knew her association with me might.
I am seriously crying now..these are just lies!I am so afraid for my friend’;s daughter, btu she has sworn to me, now that she knows, she will protect her daughter. She was horrified, btw. I do not gfor a minute believe repentance of anyone who continues to lie!!
August 12th, 2011 at 10:29 pm
Just read C.J.’s breezy blog update. Simply stunning. This has clinched it for me in a frightening way. Forget clothes- the Emperor has no conscience. All about him being best cared for, implying he needs to answer his many fans who are asking about HIS welfare. No mention of the pain and confusion this has caused for so many people, including his own family. Confident tone. I read ” The sociopath next door”. This is the sociopath behind the pulpit. Please Lord,work in a mighty way to remove this man from having a stage.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:33 pm
Do you all realize that this is the same hogwash that happened on court year after year? The pastor would ask that Mr.A be allowed ot take my children to those “Celebration” meetings, at the college in PA, saying how they would be “supervised”. I KNEW BETTER! The church was so willing to stand by him until I exploded and told everyone in that meeting that, despite the fact I did not have current custody, and they were in the care of DSS, where my say did not weigh, I PROMISED THEM I WOULD HAVE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEIR JOBS, AND RUN IT BEFORE ALL OF MONTGOMERY COUNTY IF ONE HAIR ON ANY OF MY CHILDREN WAS HURT! Needless to say, my children never attended a celebration, except the original one that I took them to. Do these pastors NOT realize what risk their lies cause???!!! The County workers could be called to a better accountability!? Mrs. A chose to marry him, and have children with him-that is between her and God, and I surely hope her daughters have not been molested, because I want that to happen to no one. But, he is taking 12 year olds on a camping trip and SAYS their parents know his past, but I KNOW FOR A FACT THEY DID NOT!!?? Maybe Greg needs to talk to Corby Megorden and whoever is the other “pastor” before he even attempts to talk to any of us. I’m sorry, but his apology has been blown out of the water for me, with these outright lies. I abhor lying! You all have seen me patient, but I REALLY,REALLY HATE LYING!!! :barf:
August 12th, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Acme: #231
A couple points of clarification,
I understand from Corby Megorden — another Family Life pastor at CLC — that “Yes [Mr. A] is a member who has strict accountability guidelines including informing any parents of children that he interacts with of his past so they can decide their level of interaction.” This has been confirmed as well as by one of the other adult band members (there are several) and from Mrs. A.
Also, evidently the camping trips were not associated with the band, but families camping together.
PLEASE LET ME CLARIFY THIS: THESE ARE LIES! I KNOW SOMEONE PERSONALLY WHOSE 12 YR OLD DAUGHTER ATTENDED THIS “FATHER-DAUGHTER CAMPING TRIP”! THIS FAMILY WAS NOT-I REPEAT-NOT AWARE AT ALL OF MR.A’S PAST! THEY WERE HORRIFIED TO LEARN THEY PUT THEIR DAUGHTER AT SUCH A RISK, TRUSTING IN A CHURCH!
August 12th, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Interesting. Where’s the disconnect? With the pastors and/or with Mr. A?
I wonder who determines who needs to know and who doesn’t. I certainly didn’t know before my little girl spent time at social/church functions with Mr. A — and I directly asked her father who said he hadn’t heard anything about it either, even though he’s good friends with adults in the band.
Another friend said that it’s not enough to just tell the parents — the kids need to know — and yes, definitely, good touch/bad touch must be reviewed in school, in church, at home, and that just because someone goes to the same church, that doesn’t make them “safe”.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:45 pm
exCLCer’s Mom, you have every right to be angry. I’m angry, too — and I’m sorry. I feel like my head is spinning. :spin
August 12th, 2011 at 10:48 pm
Obviously, the poison of lies and cover-up is still as rampant in that church as ever. I will bet the “disconnect” is everywhere. you are right-I NEVER trust anyone with my little ones (grandchildren included). There was a Child Molester who moved into our neighborhood, and some wonderful people posted this man’s picture on ever lamp post within a mile (something some of my children wanted to do with Mr. A, but I told them no, to put their energy is to something more positive). At that time, I told them that just because this man’s picture is posted with his address does NOT mean he is the only child predator around. That behind any door could be someone who “has not been caught yet”, or who from some “technicality of law” did not have to ‘register”. They know that they are to “trust no one”. It is no wonder some of them do not want to trust God! I tell them it is not God, but humans..it breaks my heart, as I am sure it breaks God’s heart that even within His church, there are still such lies, and no one can be trusted. Do you understand why I cannot bring myself to go to another church even yet? It is not God I have a problem with. I hate pretenses-I hate lies. So, so very sad to hear the things Acme has shared. My hopes are dashed right now.
August 12th, 2011 at 10:53 pm
I can assure you, I KNOW this. That particular situation is why I even took more of an interest in reading and posting on this blog. GREG SOMERVILLE, I KNOW YOU MUST BE READING THIS BOG. WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS?? YOU WOULD HAVE MY FAMILY MEET, SO MORE LIES CAN BE SPREAD? PERHAPS YOU NEED TO TAKE CARE OF “IN HOUSE” BEFORE YOU SEEK THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SO WRONGED, LEST YOU FACILITATE MORE WRONG.
Wow..I guess it will never change.. :bang
August 12th, 2011 at 10:57 pm
Comment 233 -- 5yearsinpdi
Note the expenditure for conferences. It exceeded intake, so they lost money on conferences
August 12th, 2011 at 11:06 pm
Donald, First thanks for serving. I love that we have heroic men and women willing to risk their lives to protect us. When I went to Quantico to the Marine Core Musuem I got teary eyed thinking about all the sacrifices made.
Now, RE:207 Joshua Harris had an opportunity to go away for the weekend with his son to WV for a Father/Son scouting trip. He had Thabiti Anyabwile scheduled to speak, He gave up that trip to be home because of what is going on. Cut the guy a little slack.
He is still a dad and his son still needs him to be a father.
A question: Why are you here? You admitted you are an outsider to all of this. I deleted you as a facebook friend, (then blocked you because you kept sending friend requests)It always seemed that you wanted everyone to know your opinion on everything. I imagined you sitting on you sofa watching Weirdo Christian TV giving your opinion on everything Joel O or Sid R said. Your opinion is welcome here but it seems you are trying to stir up contention when Greg S has made a seemingly sincere effort to reach out. Former students have attested to his sincerity here today.
I want to see healing come out of all this. I know of exCLcer and mother. I was there, it is horrific what happened. But the leadership is trying to change things. I think all involved in the sexual abuse garbage should go and talk to Greg. Take your lawyers or what ever other support and witnesses you need. But go. Help heal others who may not have the courage to speak up. Please go.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:07 pm
@James: I have worked the administrative end of a business (one I am no longer at, btw, because I could not reconcile with heir dishonesty). I KNOW how businesses will “move numbers” to “create a loss”. In light of accusations against CJ, and even the more recent posts, I would have no reason to believe their books to be entirely “accurate”. The IRS audits “non-profits” also, doesn’t it? Now, I believe nothing anymore. Perhaps, I need to take a break from these blogs for a bit-be around some nice, honest “non-christians” for a while, to begin to feel my normal, happy self? What a sad, frustrating night this has been. I have been drawn to the bolgs all day, so hopeful for God doing something. Still, the lies come forth. Just like “old times” :beat
August 12th, 2011 at 11:12 pm
:new Luker since the beginning…first post. not sure why now exactly…. anyway question for ExCLCersMom
Why are we keeping “Mr. A’s” identity secret here? is it because it reveals the victim? Also, is Mr. A on the MD SexOffendersRegistry?
August 12th, 2011 at 11:18 pm
Dear exCLCer’s Mom,
I’m so sorry this is causing you additional pain. I am so sorry for not exploring this issue when you left.
I believe the fact that God is exposing these issues now is because he wants you to clearly know that he was not behind the actions of those who hurt you.
When a church rejects you, it can be as though God rejects you. I believe God is standing with you now.
I want your children to know that God is standing up for them now.
Please be encouraged by that and let these painful lies be exposed for all to see.
Personally, I think if GS and the pastors want to address you, they should do it here in the presence of many witnesses.
I know people call these the slander blogs, but for decades it has not been safe to go to the pastors in private with a concern. They have forced the existence of the blogs and now should deal with matters here for all to see.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
ExCLCer and Mom -
It has taken me a while to catch up on all the posts. I started at CLC in 1989 as a new believer, I do not think I know your family, but nonetheless I was absolutely heartbroken hearing the story…really just frustrated, angry, sick and well….pissed off. ExCLCer has expressed a heart towards the downtrodden and poor, and she has been amazing in her fortitude. I really do just want to give her the biggest Hug that a human could possibly give!! I have prayed for you ExCLCer that you would receive a Hug from Jesus…I know your experiences on earth do not point to a Loving God, but I pray you do encounter Him one day in an amazing way….I would never have believed in God myself had He not intervened in a miraculous way, and I pray that you may encounter Him too -- I can just envsion you crying in His arms being held by the Creator of the universe..No “church words”, no “manipulation”, no “men trying to gain adulation”…just Jesus holding you, comforting you, understanding your pain as only He can, and letting you be angry and cry on His shoulder….
ExCLER Mom -- I just want to reiterate my offer given to your precious daughter, even though it’s a very small token of love -- I want to provide some financial assitance in lieu of a tithe to my local SGM church. I have stopped tithing now for several months and have been praying fervently that the Holy Spirit would direct my tithe and it has been a fun exciting few months. I do not want to wait around seeing if SGM will offer restitution -- they may or may not. But maybe restitution (or worded differently God’s provision) will come from current Chrsitians directing funds to your family. The “religion” God loves is those who care for the fatherless and widows, and I am sick the way that the church, or rather the “religius leaders” neglected your family. Just makes me cry. I would love to provide my tithe to your familie’s needs rather to the “church”. Kris has my email, send me an email. As a sidenote, I have also started “tithing” to Brent Detwiler…unlike some posters here, I am not looking for “perfection” in anyone’s responses or motives, and I like what God has been doing with Brent’s dogged pursuit of CJ, regardless of motives. I am sick about what I have tithed to over the past 22 years, and the “pressure” to not tithe to any other needs or para-church organizations, despite my heart wanting to -- I was “faithfull to obey” by bringing the tithe to the local storehouse….no longer!!! I want to be led by the Holy Spirit of where to give!! And I well know that any material provision will NEVER, even in a small manner, make up for the unspeakable pain that you and your family have suffered, but nonetheless it would be a blessing to me to be ablt to offer a simple provision to you and your family.
A brother in Jesus
August 12th, 2011 at 11:43 pm
I don’t think Greg is like the other pastors -- or what the other pastors used to be like, sounds like they’re coming around. Greg has been more open minded than others, and I always felt comfortable speaking my mind around him without fear of judgement. Also, his kids are not typical pastors kids -- for years, they’ve spoken very openly about their problems with CLC. They respect their dad, as do I, but they have serious issues with the church and I don’t think the older ones are still attending. Sounds like Greg raised his kids right -- to be thinkers and not just followers.
They don’t drink the nasty koolaid.
August 12th, 2011 at 11:51 pm
@exCLCer
I am so perplexed by the behavior of the pastors. Was the abuse disputed? Was it something that could be construed as an accident or misunderstanding or something? Why would they fight for abuser to have custody? How long was he in jail? Seems like a criminal conviction would settle any questions about the validity of the accusations. Were they hoping he would have custody because the kids had already been removed from you and they were hoping to still find a way to care for your children and thought they were safer with him than in foster care? Or did foster care arise because of the custody dispute?
I just can’t in my wildest imagination figure out why they acted that way.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:03 am
@ RadicallySaved, Thank you so much for your heart. I am not saying I am in any kind of a good spot financially right now (I asked my last job as administrator to “lay me off” because I could not tolerate the lies). I am in school. But, i cannot even think about money right now, as I really, truly am so broken-hearted to hear these outright lies. It hurts that “christians” can just outright lie, like there is not God who will hold them accountable one day? Do they NOT think He knows? What could possibly be going through their heads???
I DO believe a lot with my situation, and perhaps even now, has to do with money. I remind everyone I know how “The love of money is the root of all evil”. I tell them it is not the “possession” of money, rather the love, so whether you “have” money, or not-that is irrelevant-it is whether you love money. I do believe that is the root of the evil in CLC, and maybe Sov G-I dont know-only God knows. I do not at all EVER want to give ANYONE even the slightest possibility of saying that is what is taking place here. I have learned to “abase and abound”, and whether I have anything at all is not the point here. I am so disappointed to hear they will continue the lies from pastors on one hand, yet seek to resolve wrongs on another hand? Yes, we all realize that all humans have failings…but a “pastor” would give such affirmations, while another pastor seeks forgiveness for many of the same type offenses? Really? Is it now the church is schizophrenic?
Radically Saved, I so totally understand your heart! I understand how you want to give where God is moving, and not to lies and self-promotion. I just cannot go there tonight..my heart is seriously breaking all over again. Maybe I am not ready for this. Thank you, thank you all for your kind words and support. I dont know why I should feel such shock in the continued lies..I guess I just wasn’t ready for that.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:11 am
@ God is Able; No, he is not on the registry..it was before that law was passed. I have only kept anonymity out of respect for the website, seeing that was the example set. But, also, I wish no harm, even emotionally or spiritually, to his current daughters. As I said in an earlier post, lies and sin covered up only become more complicated.
Obviously, before Greg has anything at all to say to any of those hurt in the past, I believe he has to “clean house”, and at least stop lies coming from the “pastors” of his church!
August 13th, 2011 at 12:28 am
@ Just saying;
We have all been perplexed by those very questions. God will be the only One who truly knows. I have some speculations, and the reasons for those will become more clear once I have finished my “chronicles” that take everything in, from the beginning. It is quite long, so it will be awhile. I will just say here I believe it was a combination of “good ol boy network” (Gary was once expressed shock to me that I was not “the aggressor” in a premarital situation. No one ever spoke to me-and for years everyone assumed I was the aggressor? Hmmm…) Couple that with the fact that he was going to make in excess of 200k per year (plus bonuses), while I was on welfare….who was going to contribute more money to “the building fund”?
I will not paint myself as perfect here..I got “involved” with someone who I have since had three children with-we are still friends even today- I never felt “safe” marrying him, or having him live in my house, or combining our finances..When I was pregnant with the first child we had, the pastors asked me to leave the church because they could not allow “adultery and lasciviousness” in their church…Child abuse is okay-lets pay the retainer for his lawyer, and support him all the way, but I am pregnant by a consenting adult, and “God forbid we have this in our church”!? I GLADLY LEFT! The rest, even the courts, the social workers, and the judge himself could not figure. Only God knows. I think it is because he and his “new wife” thought they could have these children and form their own little ‘reality” of what is what, and “move on in God”. No one counted on the fact that my children are my life-they are my ministry for God-they are everything I was ever meant to be here for-and NO ONE, NO ONE CAN LOVE MY CHILDREN THE WAY I DO! Okay, well, God loves them probably even more, because He loves them perfectly, but you see my point. I do not think it is “co-incidence” that I now live across the street from an “author” who wants to write my story. The Trusth will come to light. All lies will be exposed. how can anyone, who really beievse in god can possibly think they could ever get away with lying?????? :scratch :scratch :scratch
August 13th, 2011 at 12:41 am
Still@CLC4now:
Whatever Greg wanted to express has been over-ridden by lies from one of the “pastors” under “his care”. he certainly has nothing to say to me until he stops the lies form within his pastors first. I will be very interested to hear how ExClcer and SGMnot weigh in on this tomorrow. SGMnot may not know me, but ExClcer knows my hatred for lying, and know the woman of truth that I am. I know that many here may not-it boils down to a “he said/she said” situation. These reasons are why I keep every court document (my kids call me a “pack rat”), but I will keep “absolute truths” to prove my point when necessary. I have proof after proof, after proof..but that is not where I wanted to go. I have moved on with my life, trusting God nonetheless. I thought, maybe God will reveal Himself with these “goings on” and my children will see…there is still “hope”, but maybe not through CLC,,,just disappointed here..I shouldn’t be surprised. That is what my children point out to me as a fault-I am “too nice”, “over optimistic”, I “believe the best” too quickly…I was hoping to have “justification” for those beliefs..maybe not yet…maybe from :spin somewhere else..
August 13th, 2011 at 12:50 am
@ExClcer’sMom: thank you for responding to Acme’s #231! I think it is very important that Greg and Corby hear that Mr A is not complying to his “accountability guidelines” that Corby thinks he is. (what exactly constitutes ‘…children that he interacts with’ anyway?!?)
I wouldn’t necessarily say that Corby or CLC is spewing lies — maybe Corby honestly believes these guidelines are being followed. But that is one of the benefits of openness and transparency and these blogs: the truth is usually revealed.
Again, thank you for declaring with vigor the truth…I am confident that Greg and Corby are listening.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:56 am
@It’s just the beginning; if you were a pastor in a church, responsible for so many parents and children, would you “leave” the safety of those children to the “accountability of a convicted child molester and his wife”? Seriously? Just how much Kool aid does one have to drink to get to THAT point?? :koolaid
Should Corby or even Greg say or make advances without first checking the reality of such things? Maybe it is just the kool aid effect…
I just dont understand, seriously…
August 13th, 2011 at 1:00 am
@exCLCer
Please know that the people here care about you. I hope you can experience God’s love here in a way you were denied by the church.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:16 am
@ExClcer’sMom: I don’t disagree with you at all .. having children of my own, I certainly will do everything in my power to safeguard them from child molesters.
I don’t know what the right “procedure” is in a case like this. Should Mr A be required, in his initial conversation with everyone he meets, to inform them about his horrid past? (maybe that’s a good idea given all the pain and suffering he has caused you and your family?!?)
…
The point I was trying to make is I’m glad this blog exists, where supposed fact can come out into the open [Corby's statement to Acme], people like yourself can shed the light of truth on them, and hopefully errors and wrong assumptions and bad policies/procedures can be corrected.
(It’s just a shame these bad policies/procedures exists in the first place — AND THAT is the understatement of the year!!!) http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/brickwall.gif
August 13th, 2011 at 1:22 am
Thank god for ExClcer! At this point she is much stronger than I. She has been through painful things I wish never happened. I had no family really as a child-I wanted so much more for my children. I gave them all I could, but put my trust in the wrong places. I know God is not finished yet. I do trust Him. I am not, however, strong enough to go through dealing with the lies from such people all over again.
@ Just saying, I appreciate your concern, I accept God’s love..I sp truly appreciate what everyone is doing on this website. Thank you to Kris and Guy, especially!
Please, dont get me wrong, I consider myself the most blessed among women-I really truly do. But, I still struggle with many things-I work very hard just to exist..I do not have energy to deal with useless lies.
I know that most of you who post here are not lying..I just strongly believe that CLC is NOT ready to deal with any of this until they root out the lying in their own midst! If I am wrong, so be it-God will have His way. But I know now that I need to just concentrate on my own survival right now-I need to continue to move on, and just wipe the dust from my feet.
I will still work on the “chronicles”, the book that is being written. The Truth will come out..I just cannot spend every night crying again, only to have lies trying to cover the truth. That really is important to me-maybe it is just me, I dunno, but that is how I feel. To all of you with pure hearts here, who remain steadfast-my best wishes to you all! I hope you will succeed one day in the changes we all hope to see.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:10 am
@ It’s just the beginning;
@ExClcer’sMom: I don’t disagree with you at all .. having children of my own, I certainly will do everything in my power to safeguard them from child molesters.
I don’t know what the right “procedure” is in a case like this. Should Mr A be required, in his initial conversation with everyone he meets, to inform them about his horrid past? (maybe that’s a good idea given all the pain and suffering he has caused you and your family?!?)
The point I was trying to make is I’m glad this blog exists, where supposed fact can come out into the open [Corby's statement to Acme], people like yourself can shed the light of truth on them, and hopefully errors and wrong assumptions and bad policies/procedures can be corrected.
The pain and suffering he has caused my family is NOT the point here…If a man had sexually molested another 11-13 yr old-details I could go into here, but will not-however, just take a moment, and try to imagine the pain and confusion of an 11 yr old having her “adopted” father do such sexual things to her night after night-TOTALLY DISGUSTING!.. Just where/when would YOU want to be told of such things before you exposed your 12 year old daughter??? How would Gary Ricucci feel about any of his daughters? Or maybe John Loftness with his daughters? I dont know if Greg has daughters, but I imagine if he did, they would be as far from Mr. A as Gary’s or John’s, or even CJ’s..easy for them to talk, and let lies abound-their daughters are not at risk here!
The point here is CLC is STILL covering up LIES!!! Not just individuals (I am not surprised Mr.A is lying-in all 12 years of marriage to him, he only did lie), but the “pastors” are lying? So, who is Greg coming to us representing? The Liars? I’m sorry-let me have a few more gallons of Kool-aid, for I do not see the sense in this yet! :koolaid
August 13th, 2011 at 2:30 am
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” --
— Mahatma Gandhi
I understand why my children have been so “confused”. What can I say? I dont know. God help us all.
August 13th, 2011 at 6:33 am
Pedophiles are saddled with an unspeakable burden that no one knows how to remove. As has been posted on this blog by those who have done the research out of hideous necessity (e.g. Stunned) those pedophiles who have consciences, especially those who have not acted on their urges, often loathe these urges. Often, though not always, they were victims themselves. I don’t think we can ever know how many never act on their urges; but surely the avoidance of public shame and humiliation is a motivator. And perhaps also a desire not to begin or continue such a destructive pattern. And when a pedophile is also a sociopath, as it seems with “Mr. A,” and thus lacking in conscience, empathy, or sensitivity to shame, he is a deadly risk to any child around him. He just is. In this case at CLC, as in others we know about, CLC is doing the equivalent of locking their children in a room with a lethal, aggressive viper. (That may be a bit of a hackneyed metaphor, but I recently watched an Animal Planet show about Black Mambas, which kill hundreds of people in Africa every year, and often shelter in homes.)
Pedophiles CANNOT be trusted with responsibility for their own “accountability.” Their problem does not go away because they have ready access to sex with an adult partner. Their problem certainly hasn’t gone away because they have learned to make correct responses. Their problem doesn’t go away because they have money. Their problem certainly doesn’t go away because they are professed christians. How we all wish it did! Their problem doesn’t go away because they have enlisted an enabler, such as a compliant spouse, an overprotective parent, or a reputation-obsessed organization. They will ALWAYS need close monitoring and children around them will ALWAYS need to be vigilantly protected by other adults who know all the facts.
I don’t want to make this post too lengthy, so in a post to follow shortly I’m going to share a story about our experience with this issue in my immediate family. I have not shared this story here before.
August 13th, 2011 at 6:59 am
Dear exclcer’s mom,
My heart is breaking for you and with you. But I know in my gut that God is allowing every single SGM lie to be exposed. God is revealing every bait and switch, every attempt to appease that is not sincere. Every attempt to try and do “business as usual” is being seen clearly by God, (and being recorded on the blogs almost immediately!) nothing is escaping His gaze. God really isn’t going to be mocked. I’ve read here for a couple of years now, but the last couple months of reading have been like watching all the SGM dominos fall down at break-neck speed. God is in the House. Please don’t lose heart. He will be your Triumph. When the enemy of our soul knows he is about to lose, he gets furious and throws out unbelievable tactics, you know, “darkest before the dawn” kinda stuff. But hold on, there is so much more going on than can be seen.
I believe there may be a few SGM pastors that Holy Spirit is convicting right now, and dealing with, giving them opportunity to “get some grit in their soul, man up and come clean.” I believe some will, but many wont. But that won’t stop God’s plan. I think what the Dave H’s et al haven’t figured out yet is: They are fighting against God. They have gotten so used to using His name in their marketing, but operating their business without Him, that they really haven’t recognized the fact that they are fighting against Him (See Acts 5:39); it’s very sobering to see the depth of human blindness from unchecked sin. Lord have mercy on us all.
A post or two back, someone gave you a portion of Psalm 126, and I believe it is a picture of what God is in the midst of doing for all who have been broken and harmed. He is, even now, bringing back the captives. May the Lord bless you with His Peace… MANM
When the LORD brought back the captivity of Zion,
We were like those who dream.
Then our mouth was filled with laughter,
And our tongue with singing.
Then they said among the nations,
“The LORD has done great things for them.”
The LORD has done great things for us,
And we are glad.
Bring back our captivity, O LORD,
As the streams in the South.
Those who sow in tears
Shall reap in joy.
He who continually goes forth weeping,
Bearing seed for sowing,
Shall doubtless come again with rejoicing,
Bringing his sheaves with him.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:16 am
@Katie in 249, I am not going to speak with regards to the children, but I can’t really agree that Greg himself is not a coolaid drinker. He has is a thinker, and an intelligent guy (except for his sgm blindness) but he has conformed to the sin sniffing mentality. Within those confines he is a man of integrity, and as I said before I think he is being as sincere as he knows how to be. I watched him and a singles pastor of years ago named Mark gradually become stronger coolaid drinkers over the years, all the while trying their very hardest to live with integrity….but to what standard? I believe to the sgm sin sniffing standard, it has been a loooong long time since they even said the name Jesus. The word gospel became so central and, as evidenced in the three recenct letters, is even more central, they have created their own words and their definitions and the pastors all speak the speak. Gospel fruitfulness? Whatever, Paul didn’t sure write like they speak. I just love the name of Jesus even more for how starving I was to hear his name for the way too many years I was there.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:21 am
226 yes!
If anyone is going to meet with the pastors regarding sexual abuse bring a lawyer with you.
When this ball of lies is unraveled, the end of the thread will be CJ. And he is “being cared for” in another church.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:31 am
Our story did not take place in SGM or any other church. And thank God it didn’t; because I think the secular authorities did a vastly better job dealing with it. They don’t give a s**t about anybody’s reputation, they just want to protect children and try to help perpetrators stay clean.
One of my grown daughters married the day after her high school graduation and gave birth to my first two granddaughters six months later. Those lovely girls were 4 or 5 when we left the church. Around that same time their parents divorced and my daughter was left a young single Mom. She got back together with a young man, I’ll call him Gary, who she had dated in high school — had known well for years. He moved in and they became engaged. She was happily planning her first real wedding. Some months later she discovered that he had been looking at child pornography on their computer. She kicked him out immediately. It’s important here for me to emphasize that Gary never touched a child BUT he has never again been in the presence of my two oldest granddaughters.
In an effort to get his life together and to win my daughter back, Gary turned himself in to the police for the felony offense of looking at child porn. He became a convicted felon with all the comcomitant lifelong consequences and a registered sex offender. He avoided jail time because he had turned himself in and had not touched a child but served a very restrictive probation for at least two years. As will all probationers, he could have gone to jail at any time. He was not allowed to leave the county without the written permission of his Probation Officer. He had a nine pm curfew. He surrendered the laptop and, while he was allowed to use a computer, he was not allowed ANY access to the Internet. He was not allowed to be anywhere children might be without very close accountability and chaperonage by another adult. Those of us who agreed to act as his chaperones had to sign a written document describing our responsibilites, basically agreeing to never let him out of our sight. He was not allowed to consume any alcohol. He was part of a sex offender’s counseling group that included several men who had touched minors and was treated just as they were. On Halloween, because so many children would be out trick or treating, he was required to gather with all of the sex offenders on probation at a local fire station. He had to submit to, and was billed for, regular polygraphs. My daughter agreed to go for counseling as well. I’m describing this in such detail because of the contrast between the consequences to Gary, who never touched a child and chose to turn himself in, and the child rapists whose stories have been told here. (And I don’t mean that I am minimizing or excusing Gary’s noxious offense.)
Sometime during his probation, my daughter, who is fiercely loyal and loving, agreed to start seeing him again. They had a child together, my precious third granddaughter. She and Gary wanted very badly for him to be present at her birth, so carefully coordinated with Gary’s PO. He was to be chaperoned at the hospital (by someone other than my daughter) so his mother and I signed documents agreeing that one of us would be physically with him every moment and wait right outside the door when he used the restroom. As happens so often now, it turned out that my daughter had to have a C-section, when only one family member can be in the OR. It couldn’t be him; so I went in with her. It took a long, long time for them to get over that unexpected heartbreak and he didn’t get to hold his daughter until much later. So my daughter was a single Mom with school-aged twins and an infant and because of the terms of his probation he could only help her minimally. They did eventually determine visitation conditions with the help of his parents. His probation has been at an end for years now; but he still has never been with his daughter without restrictions in place. For instance, he has never changed her diaper or taken her to the restroom. Even before my daughter ended the relationship for good (for reasons unrelated to these issues) he never lived with them again. She knows that a pedophile is ALWAYS a pedophile and ALWAYS requires very close and specific accountability. My other daughter would never have him in her home. If one of us found out that he was around other children without restrictions and absent the full knowledge of their parents, she would raise hell.
I actually like this young man and get along well with him — he was always kind to me. But he is a pedophile and that is the reality of his life. A sad, sad reality. But THANK GOD he has had the close and wise scrutiny that he has in order to help him act no further on his impulses.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:33 am
#264 great insight! And I agree with you because how in the world could you subject yourself to that sgm doctrine year after year without trampling your conscience into the dirt? gospel not Jesus, anyone?
Within that system he is a man of integrity and I am sure he is— within a very warped system which has to warp his perceptions also.
Cindy K wrote a comment on a post from the Wartsburg Watch the other day about words and definitions that I liked and I think you will too. here is the link for that http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/08/10/the-devolution-of-sgm-repudiation-of-hyper-authoritarian-leadership/
her comment is towards the bottom at 6:34 am
August 13th, 2011 at 7:34 am
ExClcer’s Mom,
I can completely realte to your feeling of needing to concentrate on your own survival each day and move on from focusing on the hurts of the past. For what it is worth, I have found the same thing you describe about the ongoing believing in lies by SG leaders and members. From time to time, I run into people from my old SG church and when I talk to them I can still hear all of the lack of truth and insight that they possess in regards to their lives and their struggles. So many times I have tested the waters with a tiny bit of truth that I see them struggling with -- truth that doesn’t even involve issues concerning their SG church, just Biblical truth about life in general -- and I hear all the lies that they are believing and trying to pass on as wisdom. I walk away and think the same thing that you said. They are not ready to hear what God continues to open my heart to see and not only are they not ready to hear it for whatever reason, many of them are running 100 miles an hour in the wrong direction….without the True Shepherd leading them. And I know that apart from God’s grace, I would be too. And knowing that makes my worship and love for Jesus only purer.
Only you know the truth of your situation in your heart with God…let it set you free. I pray that you would always hear His voice above all others and let Him lead you to His heart so that He can continue to heal yours. I believe in you.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:36 am
@Phoenix #262: Thank you for such a good post….those are wise thoughts and it really made me stop and think. Thank you.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:40 am
One Reason Why CLC Cannot Leave SGM (from the SGM Financial Statement):
“SGM capitalized a payment of $1,890,190 to the Church for its right to use 17,125 square feet of buildings and improvements placed in service by the Church beginning August 1, 2002. An agreement was established between SGM and the Church under which SGM is given use of the building for successive terms of ninety-nine years and the Church provides all services, maintenance and repairs required for the upkeep of the property. SGM reimburses the Church for its share of these expenses at a mutually agreed upon rate, determined annually. The agreement contains a termination provision allowing either party to end the agreement after giving 24 months notice. Under the terms of the agreement the Church would be required to make a termination payment to SGM based in part on the fair value of the building no later than 18 months before termination.”
==================
Actually, it looks like 1.89 million reasons….
August 13th, 2011 at 7:42 am
Phoenix #266, Wow. Quite a contrast isn’t it from “just looking” at child porn to the actual rape of an 11 yr old stepdaughter?
August 13th, 2011 at 7:45 am
ExCLCer’sMom -- I woke up to read this and my heart has been breaking for you. I pray you got some sleep last night and that you will have peace even while bringing up all these emotions. Please know that I am praying for you -- as many on here are.
There is simply no way to make this right. Simply no way. They can set policies in place for the future -- and enforce those policies -- but it still will never make things right with you and your family.
That said (and now I am talking to others weiging in on the matter) -- I believe the CLC pastors are trying. Some have been going back to those they hurt in the past and making apologies. We have seen an unprecedented openness and humility. They sincerely seem to want to learn from their mistakes and make things better in the future. No, they can never make things right with everyone in the past they have hurt -- simply impossible. But, they can make changes from here forward.
I was in SGM (mainly CLC) for 20 years and have my share of difficuties with them -- and, yes, hurts, too. I think the reason so many of us struggle with hurt is because we trusted and loved our local church and our pastors SO MUCH (yes, we drank the koolaid) -- if we had not then they would not have had the power to hurt us.
Please, let’s remember the people we know and love still in SGM and pray that these changes we’re seeing will bear lasting fruit. This whole situation has the potential to cause much more hurt and disillusionment. Let’s pray that it does not.
Thank you, Greg, for trying to reach out. And, thank you Josh for all you are doing. You are also in my prayers.
August 13th, 2011 at 7:58 am
Old Timer,
Yes, it is, and I have been very proud of my daughter for how she has handled it. Making the choice to be alone as a Mom is very, very difficult. She, btw, is in a relationship now with a wonderful, responsible guy who is crazy about her children and will be an outstanding stepfather.
I’m one who was also very close to the aftermath of Noel’s story and the minimal consequences to that perp. And I’ve learned a lot more about that in the intervening years. So maybe hearing my own family’s story will help folks understand the seeming harshness of some of my posts about how perp’s family handled that situation. Like Stunned I KNOW it can be done better. I KNOW the hard choices can be made and life can go on.
August 13th, 2011 at 8:08 am
Phoenix, I am also very proud of the way that you handled this all and loved both the children, your daughter and this young man, who I am sure is tortured with his thoughts. I am also very proud of him for turning himself in. This is nearly unheard of.
We still don’t know what makes these desires spring up in some people, but I can not imagine him being able to handle himself (by turning himself into the police) in a more responsible and godly manner. You didn’t mention that he was a Christian so I’m assuming he is not, but why does he act godly and our own brothers and sisters, so ungodly in their desire to cover this up? A thousand huzzahs for “Gary” for turning himself in.
These are not siutations that should be covered up as it involves all of us, as predators or pedophiles, for the most part, can not spend the rest of their lives avoiding situations where there are potential victims and it is up to us as a society to be careful and watchful and on guard. It is also on our shoulders (those of us who are Christians) to love these men & women (the pedophiles) and to love them in such a way that we protect ANY future victims while also seeing to it that their past and current victims are our highest priority; to seek healing and comfort for them.
Kudos to you, Phoenix. My respect for you grows daily.
August 13th, 2011 at 8:27 am
Unfortunately, there are some things that never change . . . so much much for “stepping down” -- here is a rough translation (from Google Translate) of CJ’s bio from the conference he and the boys are suffering at right now:
C.J. Mahaney leads Sovereign Grace Ministry of whose mission is to establish and support local churches. On September 18, 2004, having pastored for 27 years the Church Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland, CJ passed by Head Pastor Joshua Harris. This allowed him to focus completely on the ministry of Sovereign Grace. Serves on the Board for the Alliance of Evangelical professors and the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
Some of the books C.J. are as follows: “Humility: True Greatness”, “Living a life centered on the Cross” and “Sex, Romance and the Glory of God.” He is the editor of the books “worldliness” and “Why Have Small Groups?” And has co-authored several other books in the series of “The Pursuit of Holiness Ministry of Sovereign Grace.
C.J. and his wife Carolyn have three married daughters and a son. Currently living in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
:scratch
August 13th, 2011 at 8:42 am
Stunned, you brought tears to my eyes. Thank you. It is such a mark of God’s grace that the difficult things we go through can be used for good not just for us, but for others. And I think that is the testimony of many in our community here.
When I think of my own failures (as distinct from my struggles and hurts,) and there are many, I don’t just think with gratitude of how God has used them to shape me and my life for the better. I also think of how I can stand on my failures to help others. Sometimes by sharing them directly and sometimes just by knowing what it is to sin and struggle and fail.
August 13th, 2011 at 8:47 am
” How much does SGM need in savings for emergencies?”
A lot. A few bad giving months is serious business. Just ask to see an electric bill for one month, sometime. The mega’s was between 15,000-20,000 month. For huge buildings that were 2/3 empty for most of the week. Such great stewardship for believers.
How much are total salaries? If you were allowed to see a detailed budget, you would understand why they need large emergency funds. CLC’s is not that large.
Keeping the money flowing in right now is a huge concern because of the scandal and the economy. Church is big business. That is another reason for conferences. They are cash cows.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:04 am
PDI Past, at least now we know why there was a need for a “preliminary panel” to don CJ with the title worthy to lead. I’m guessing this enabled CJ to speak at a conference in spite of his having “stepped down”. Stepping down from what, I wonder? He still speaks at conferences, he still goes into his office every day, he still receives his full salary, he still has meetings with people. He was doing all of this beforehand. Only difference I can tell- and my ability to see is quite limited so I would truly welcome others speaking up and correcting me here- is that he has stepped down from going to church at CLC. And was he even there weekly to begin with? I don’t know. Others would have to know more than me and can enlighten us.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:11 am
“ExCLER Mom – I just want to reiterate my offer given to your precious daughter, even though it’s a very small token of love – I want to provide some financial assitance in lieu of a tithe to my local SGM church. I have stopped tithing now for several months and have been praying fervently that the Holy Spirit would direct my tithe and it has been a fun exciting few months.”
Radically saved, Now we are talking! Bless you, my friend!
THIS is an example of the true Body of Christ in action.
Let the Holy spirit lead in giving. Pretty soon, you will be sliding anonymous envelopes of cash under single mom’s doors so they can fix their car to go to work. Or helping an out of work family one month.
THIS is the Body of Christ. Forget that big fancy building and high salaries. Let the Holy Spirit guide and be the Body of Christ to one another.
Since there is no “tithe” for the NC, The Holy spirit might guide some to become more radical at some point than 10%. The OC tithe system was more like 23.5 percent. There is no designated percent for us in the NC since WE are the Body and there is no temple anymore.
So YES! Pray that you are shown those in need of help and give it to them. This is the true Body at work. And give it anonymously. See Matt 6.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:15 am
In the future, if anyone out there reading ever chooses to meet with anyone from CLC and/or an SGM entity to discuss a serious event in your life, make sure you bring a credible witness and/or a lawyer friend with you. CLC/SGM have shown they are untrustworthy with the handling of serious offenses. Also DO NOT let them assert any kind of legal privilege over your meetings…
On another note, don’t some of you think that the more money and resources that SGM keeps wasting in trying to defend CJ could have gone to compensate the former victims and persons who were expelled because of CJ’s twisted double standard. How come no one seems to be questioning the new “financial impropriety” that is taking place by defending CJ and letting this drag on. I for one left CLC because of the “corporate like” structure the church had taken. I hope all this foolishness changes because all this bad publicity (thank you CJ and SGM) is what affects the Christian body as a whole in the eye of the public.
August 13th, 2011 at 9:16 am
“PDI Past, at least now we know why there was a need for a “preliminary panel” to don CJ with the title worthy to lead. I’m guessing this enabled CJ to speak at a conference in spite of his having “stepped down”. ”
Al Mohler had already made this clear before the panel met. Do you remember that? He was never “stepping down” from all his appearances, etc.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:10 am
Matt- thanks for clarifying about the rainy day savings.
( this may turn out to be a monsoon :D )
exclcermom…..is it possible that Greg heard all the campers were warned from somebody else and didn’t know that is false? With so many people in the church he must have to delgate a lot and is not on top of everything. I vote to give him more time. I am cynical too, but let’s see if he/they make a greater effort to deal with the mess before we assume there is no repentance.
From here on out, no half hearted SGMese-speak type letters of apology from any church will do IMO. They are going to have to really put out some hard hitting gut spilling fact exposing no holds barred apologies. This is a final exam and they will either pass or fail. The time for spin games is over.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:15 am
@Matt #280 -- how true! I know we’re not supposed to speculate on someone’s movtives, but it sure is hard not to reach that conclusion, given the timing of how quickly the preliminary panel was thrown together and came to their conclusion. And, if true, what a bunch of whitewashed hooey this all is. How do you not get cynical in the face of all this?
Separately, I’m new here so please forgive me if there are things I just don’t understand, but why does CLC let Mr A, an admitted pedophile, be in a ministry position that involves overnights with young girls? Isn’t that kind of absurd? God can use all of us in ministry, sinners though we all are and in spite of our pasts, but doesn’t some common sense have to be applied? Surely there’s a place for him that doesn’t involve overnights with children? Given that he’s allowed to continue in that role, doesn’t it make it hard to trust CLC on this issue unless that changes?
August 13th, 2011 at 10:17 am
-- Off Topic Warning — :mic
With nods to folks here like Donald P Veitch, Ozymandias, Ex CLCer’s Mom -- and others… who have the mindset of a historian. I had an aunt who passed away several years ago, who was a university librarian by trade, and had a keen interest in our family history as well as the historical and cultural influences that shaped those family members’ world views and perspectives on current events of their time, politics, religion, and culture. She was also a hoarder, you could barely walk through her house…
Where I’m going with this, is that there are a number of stories either from the past or in play now, both of the disastrous effects of SGM leadership’s behaviors, and of characteristics of and changes in SGM’s doctrine, policies and/or polity over the years. I’m sure it would be a gargantuan effort, but am wondering if an expanded version of Jenn Grover’s timeline with a scope and details beyond the BD documents and related events, would be a worthwhile effort (seems to me as though DPV may already be thinking in that direction?). Weave the rabbit trails into a tapestry, as it were. If the SGM/CLC folks ever get to the point of some healthy “Where did we go wrong?” introspection, such an account might “serve” them well (I had a hard time typing that). I think I’ve read in a couple of places where CJ is quite interested in the legacy SGM leaves… maybe an accurate timeline/narrative from the koolaid-free perspective would provide a little clarity on SGM’s true legacy.
Just a random thought.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:32 am
@waiting/deciding #283: Mr A is not in ministry at CLC in any capacity. I believe the camping trip in question was either just a bunch of CLC families going on a camping trip … or possibly something to do with “the band” I’ve heard mentioned--the band’s families went on a camping trip?!?
I don’t understand the full details of the camping trip..but I’m confident that Mr A is not serving in official ministry at CLC in any way.
August 13th, 2011 at 10:34 am
@It’s just the beginning: thanks for the clarification!
August 13th, 2011 at 10:43 am
4merCLC said, “On another note, don’t some of you think that the more money and resources that SGM keeps wasting in trying to defend CJ could have gone to compensate the former victims and persons who were expelled because of CJ’s twisted double standard.”
Hear hear! Your whole post was excellent.
5YearsinPDI said, “is it possible that Greg heard all the campers were warned from somebody else and didn’t know that is false? With so many people in the church he must have to delgate a lot and is not on top of everything.”
5 Years, I agree completely. That church is big. In fact, no church is small enough for one person to hold this kind of info and to keep everyone accountable. That is why this information must be available for ALL to know about. All. At all times. Not to shame the pedophile, but so that the entire church can know (after the original announcement is made, all new-comers must be given this info, as well) so each parent can take the responsibility to protect their children and so that each church goer can be sensitive to the needs of the families and possibly the pedophiles. Heck, it would even force each church member to face their own victimiazation if they experienced it and to possibly, finally deal with sex abuse in a loving, godly setting.
I still would give anything to not have had my little family member sexually abused, but once we stood before Dad’s church and spoke about what he had done and discussed what was going on, etc and had an elderly woman in the church come up to me and confide in me- for the first time she had ever told anyone in her entire life- that as a small child she had been sexually molested, it made all the transparency more than worth it! This woman was beginning to be set free from a lifetime of shame. I am tearing up, remembering how she and I stood in the sanctuary (and it truly became a holy place at that moment) and held each other. I can’t tell you the look on her face. It radiated with joy. She was becoming free. For the first time since she was a little girl. I had known this woman for years but I had never seen her look that way.
Please, people, please, stop acting like victims should be ashamed, or keep this to themselves. That is the plan of Satan himself. (And unfortunately too many foolish pastors.) Speak out. Let them know they are not alone!
Praying that all the other sanctuaries in the country become holy places as they choose to reveal their secrets, too,
Stunned
August 13th, 2011 at 10:56 am
Very well said Stunned #287!!!
I hope Greg and the CLC pastors respond to your comment and everyone else’s past hurts and experiences. Praise God that truth is finally being revealed.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:07 am
One of the topics mentioned a number of times is what to do with a known pedophile. I wanted to share an experience we had with Wycliffe Bible Translators last year.
My husband and I had the unfortunate circumstance to report a pedophile to Wycliffe Bible Translators because we knew of a man (pedophile) who was scheduled to go abroad to do translation work and could be exposed to children and be unsupervised.
Wycliffe has a whole department to investigate cases like this. The reputation of Christ is on the line when their people go abroad to do translation work. They took our information very seriously by first immediately canceling the trip and then notified the man that they had information that would be investigated. Someone was designated to pull his history -- from police records to investigate friends/family members. Once it was determined that he was indeed a pedophile, they sent a professionally trained counselor and an admin person to the pedophile’s area to interview family members and give their report. (Obviously they took it seriously -- paying air fare and a few nights in a hotel as well as car rental -- and keep in mind Wycliffe is a non-profit -- all this $$ comes from donors). The counselor met with the immediate family separately -- gave their recommendations as well as a report. In this case, even though the man had not “acted out on his urges” for over 20 years, they no longer wanted him to work in any capacity for them. This man is fluent in 5 or 6 languages -- even tribal languages and was a valuable resource to them. After their investigation, they ruled that he is not allowed to set one foot on any of their campuses. There was one last meeting with the counselor and all family members present setting up a plan on how he can continue to have relationships with his grandchildren with supervision and what that looks like. Aside from that, Wycliffe also reported this man to authorities who did their own investigations and recommendations. Even though he completely admitted to sexually abusing many boys as young as 2 years old, because no one ever turned him in, he is not a criminal, has no record for these crimes, and does not have to register as a registered sex offender.
We have been the ones to ask, “what are you doing to ensure that this does not happen again?, “what safeguards do you have in place at your current church to ensure that you are never alone with children?”, “what have you disclosed to your current pastor regarding your past?” Strangely enough, even though this man has been honest when confronted, he still is very reluctant to set up these very important safeguards which tells us that there is still something there for him that makes him untrustworthy. We know the result of being a victim of sexual abuse, so we continually bring up these issues of accountability. Our relationship is strained within the family now because we continually ask these tough questions. The family accuses us of being unforgiving and not letting go -- after all, he hasn’t abused in 20 years. However, all it takes is one relapse and then another soul is emotionally scarred for life. We don’t want that to happen.
Anyway, I shared this to show how a respected Christian organization deals with sex abuse in a very responsible way. Literally thousands of dollars from donor money was used to investigate this one pedophile. Not only did they investigate and remove him from ever working with Wycliffe, but they also provided counseling and recommended counselors after they were finished. Wycliffe, in my opinion, went above and beyond what they were required to do. They could have easily have kicked him out and shut the door, but they treated the whole family lovingly and respectfully and trying to get the family on the road to healing. Perhaps SGM and other churches can learn a thing or two from Wycliffe about the seriousness of sexual abuse within the church and learn to establish accountability and safe boundaries for those within the church who have or are currently abusers.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:20 am
I realized I need to just step back for a bit here. Why was I so stunned that a child molester lies? Why was I so stunned that a koolaid drinking pastor “accepts simply the word” of a child molestor? Why am I so surprised to see the “good ol boy network” still in action? (GS’s teenage son plays with this band sometimes, BTW And he is the pastor to reach out to us? Hmmm) I can be over optimistic sometimes-maybe it is “after effects” of too much koolaid.
I do see there is no reason to meet with the pastors, and I thank God that He will bring the truth out no matter how much Koolaid passes through the halls and homegroups of SGM!
I “vented” and expressed anger-not saying that was bad-but I do want to make sure no one here thinks I in any way directed that anger to those involved here. I was angry at myself for being so optimistic. I was angry at myself to have even been considering Greg’s offer! Donald Philip Veitch, you are such a wise man! You “called that shot” from the beginning!
Not only Greg being so closely involved with said pedophile, but to not even acknowledge that at the beginning? He is the “Family Life Pastor”, and does not insure that parents are told about the history of this man? Is that being a pastor?-”accepting the word” of a convicted pedophile?? However anyone tries to spin that one, it is still abhorrent! :koolaid
@Fried Fish #284; That is exactly what I am working on. A neighbor of mine is also an author, having already published one book, and finishing up another biography. I have begun my writings already.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:25 am
Jewell,
My respect for Wycliff just went up a ton. Thanks for sharing that information. That is the way it should be done.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:26 am
Matt, I will contact Kris, and request you be given my email address, where we can communicate directly. I appreciate your offer, and I totally understand your perspective on that! I do not want to share my email publicly, because I do not want to open myself to some of the same “hate mail” that my daughter has received after she began to speak up.
August 13th, 2011 at 11:28 am
YES, Matt! I agree! Jewell, I love that story! A good example of an organization who has the fear of God more than the “good ol boy” mentality! :clap :clap :clap
August 13th, 2011 at 11:39 am
“I do see there is no reason to meet with the pastors, and I thank God that He will bring the truth out no matter how much Koolaid passes through the halls and homegroups of SGM!
I “vented” and expressed anger-not saying that was bad-but I do want to make sure no one here thinks I in any way directed that anger to those involved here. I was angry at myself for being so optimistic. I was angry at myself to have even been considering Greg’s offer!”
Exclc’ersmom,
You did nothing more or less than Eve did when she listened and believed the serpent. Remember, the serpent said something to the effect of: “Oh surely God did not mean that”.
The great thing about Eve is that she ADMITTED IT. (Adam did not, he blamed God and Eve for his sin)
My point is, the evil has always been systemized at SGM. They know nothing else. In fact, they probably slap themselves on the back for “saving” the pervert and his now being a “head” of a family and branding any discussion or concern as gossip. They don’t know this is evil. That is how far gone they are. That is why they are so dangerous to masquerade as specially anointed believers who know best for others.
I am not making excuses for them just trying to get folks to open their eyes to what they think is some big change going on at CLC or SGM. They are fighting to keep the prize. The very systems that maintains their influence and incomes.
Write the book. That will help more people in the long run. And I hope it will provide you with some income. Just remember, it is not a sin to tell the truth. Even when the truth is very negative.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:09 pm
Congratulations Donald!
There was an offer to have a conversation. Who knows where it would have led…repentance, reconciliation, RESTITUTION?
But, at least for one party, no conversation will occur.
Yesterday was not about the free flow of ideas and opinion, it was about influence, with Donald, who showed up on the blogs about a month ago being the loudest voice.
So wise and caring, and an instant expert about a denomination you know nothing about.
Congratulations, and well done.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
“GS’s teenage son plays with this band sometimes,”
I’m a bit confused about this band. Is it a Christian music singing band, worship band?
And please just so I am very clear, Mr. A is a member of the band?, Leader of this band? And GS allows his child to play in the band with him? I am trying to wrap my head around this. Why would anyone trust that Greg can lead intelligently!?!
Why isn’t he getting on this blog and explaining his reasonings ???
SGMers, THINK !!!
GS, THINK !!! You should not be just ‘hoping to convey your grief’ to these victims of your church’s ‘care’ you should be barfing your guts out in grief of your own deceptions and leading others into it. Maybe you are, maybe you are just starting to come into the light and you are too sick over your own complicity and too weak to respond right now, I hope that is what is happening. I sure hope my daughter’s next correspondence with you will be after your detox and you helping all the other members to see the light of day also.
I believe there are plenty of leaders here on this blog that would be more than willing to mentor you. Reading your bio tells me you might not know any more of other Christianity than Josh knows.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
ACME said -A couple points of clarification,
I understand from Corby Megorden — another Family Life pastor at CLC — that “Yes [Mr. A] is a member who has strict accountability guidelines including informing any parents of children that he interacts with of his past so they can decide their level of interaction.” This has been confirmed as well as by one of the other adult band members (there are several) and from Mrs. A.
Also, evidently the camping trips were not associated with the band, but families camping together.
ACME great job of simultaneously trashing Corby and sending exCLCer ‘s Mom into orbit. The word EVIDENTLY is speculation on your behalf. The fact is that everything that Corby stated to you could be accurate.
If someone does not comply with the church’s request what recourse do they have? If the camping had nothing to do with the band or the church how does the church keep him accountability? Would you put yourself under this excessive shepherding like accountability? Let me speculate probably not especially if every activity church or otherwise needed to be approved by a pastor. In other words you can’t have it both ways either the church controls your every move or they don’t. Most of the complaints on this blog are about excessive interference. I know many think he is so much worse a sinner and a snake ready to strike but if he has submitted to the best of anyones knowledge to the requests what do you want CLC to do? They have informed the parents in the band. Do you want them to publically identify him once a month? Maybe the church can issue him a tracking device? I am sure he would not leave and would want the church to track him wherever he goes for the rest of his life.(sarcasm) By the way it might be wrong but the State of Maryland (not CLC)did not require him to be a registered sex offender. Do you think that anyone including CLC could be subjected to a defamation suit for publically calling him a sex offender when the State of Maryland did not?
It truly is a shame that no matter what the pastors do at this point it will be pick apart until some fault is found. Now I can state this till I am blue in the face, WHAT HAPPENED TO MOM AND FAMILY WAS WRONG! IT HAPPENED MORE THEN 20 YEARS AGO BEFORE GREG WAS A PASTOR, CORBY WAS A PASTOR, AND JOSH WAS EVEN IN THE CHURCH.
Please let them try to serve!! By the way of those involved one pastor is no longer a pastor at CLC he is employed by SGM. The other pastor is no longer a pastor at CLC he is in a different church all together.
Since MOM already knew (by her own statement) that the 12 year olds mother in question did not know about the man’s past and the camping trip the only statement that distressed her was yours. The statement of yours, per Corby that, “Yes [Mr. A] is a member who has strict accountability guidelines including informing any parents of children that he interacts with of his past so they can decide their level of interaction.” The speculative natures of your next statement (using the word evidently) lead MOM to believe that Corby was lying.
As a wordsmith you might want to be careful to use your words very carefully since an innocuous statement or even a statement of support can be misinterpreted. It did not seem like you meant to cause such a stir but that is what happened. I hope you and everyone else on this blog want reconciliation if not then you are doing exactly what the detractors think you are doing. You are doing nothing more than instigating, trashing people, and hoping for the destruction of CLC.
I just put on my suit of armor awaiting the verbal pounding from the blog.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
@Jim@#295.
1. Sorry, Jim, some perspective. I’ve understood the two poles, your view, attempting to honour the overture of Mr. Somerville (which has merit, as previously noted), and those on the other end that are cautious. Actually, have embraced both poles without a conclusion on it in either direction. Go back and read cautiously.
2. On the other hand, I’ve watched Mr. Detwiler’s insistence on mediation “with a written record.” That hasn’t been answered by Mr. Mahaney. Mr. Detwiler’s view, in my opinion, is wise and prudent under these circumstances…mediation with stenography and no non-disclosure statements. I’d even recommend formal affidavits or depositions, with recorders, so the record would be established.
3. Adults make their own decisions. That is respected. Whatever one does, it’s their decision and their’s alone.
4. Whatever other’s may do, my decision, for which I am responsible, is the counsel of caution. You may disagree. That’s your call. My call? I’ll stand by the counsel.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
Jim, I have the highest of respect for you, but if hothing happens now it will not be Donald’s fault.
It will be the fault of Greg S not saying “OK, these people are very cynical, very negative, very disillusioned, and unable to trust me….so I will do everything possible on my part to fix this and live at peace with all men. I will let them bring a lawyer and take notes and put it online, and I will clarify in writing WHY I/we didn’t warn a Mom whose girl was on the camping trip. I will go out of my way to walk the second mile with these people who are not believeing the best of me right now. I will post a longer, more detailed, non whitewashed letter with all the facts, even if I end up getting sued, and I will do EVERYTHING I can to make it right”
If Greg does his part honestly and righteously, I can guarantee that all the cynics here like me will support him, and will encourage Mom to get together at CLC- WHEN Greg deals with this properly. Greg CAN earn back trust and respect. It can be done and any failure to do so lies now with Greg, not Donald. The request for Mom’s lawyer to be present at CLC’s expense is perfectly reasonable.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
Friend of the Friendless, welcome to the blog. I’m stumped by your personal attack. Truly.
First of all, I have no desire to pound you nor to trash people. Feel free to disagree with me on this or any other matter.
Secondly, I shared what I learned — a direct quote from one of the other Family Life pastors — and made corrections based on what I learned talking to other parties involved. I didn’t trash Corby (and yes, I know him personally, having been in CG with him and V for several years before he became a pastor). I say again that there is some kind of disconnect here. He may truly believe that procedures are being followed.
I’m sorry the word “evidently” causes you such problems. I wanted to say that the trips and the band were two separate enterprises, not as previously been stated part of the same. Is there another word I should have used that would have been less inflammatory?
I’ll admit, the reaction was not what I expected, and I definitely had an “Oh, shoot” moment, but I am trying to do the right thing.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:35 pm
Jim,
Right on Brother, thanks for getting it! and wanting truth and justice.
We will all be judged for every word and keystroke someday. Jesus help us.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:42 pm
“Yesterday was not about the free flow of ideas and opinion, it was about influence, with Donald, who showed up on the blogs about a month ago being the loudest voice.”
Jim, Do you not see what you are doing? You are not allowing people to be grown ups. This is what SGM is known for.
You think exclcer’s mom is not capable of making decisions that are best for her and her family? A wise person listens to counsel and weighs all the evidence and makes a decision of their own.
Donald had some very good counsel in making sure she was represented before she dared face people who showed NO wisdom years ago. And not only that but were cruel and committed crimes! We have no evidence they have become wise all of a sudden when the scandals became public. In fact, the timing makes it more suspicious since the Holy Spirit did not convict them in all these 20 years.
From my reading here, I think she was more influenced about finding out about the pervert’s current situation than anything else. She can correct me if I am wrong. I frequently am. :o)
In fact, I will go a step further and urge folks to listen to people OUTSIDE the system for a change. There is so much inbred thinking from these systems, that what might seem normal, isn’t.
Let us care more for saving people than for saving such corrupt systems.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
Donald,
I read your 20-plus posts. Don’t lean hard on someone to influence their decision TO HAVE A CONVERSATION, and then say “adults make their own decisions”. That’s the language of manipulation. An involved party, which you are not, is mad at herself for even considering the conversation, and is thankful to you for you input (around 20 posts in one day), which helped her make her decision.
5years,
Again, it was an offer to have a conversation. There might have come a time to have an attorney present, but the cart is way before the horse here. Who knows where it would have led. Who KNOWS that CLC would not have done the right thing?
If no one talks to each other, we will never know.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:46 pm
I hope this will be posted.
“friend of the friendless” -- Acme didn’t do anything wrong and simply relayed the information that had been given to her and me by Corby. She didn’t trash Corby. In fact the information she relayed put the pastors in a positive light -- both I and Acme found it to be a great relief to hear that the pastors were monitoring the situation with Mr. A and were keeping parents informed about his record.
Either you’re unable to read Acme’s comments impartially or you need work a bit harder at understanding what Acme said. There’s nothing in her comments to imply that Corby had any knowledge of the camping trip, or that he was the source for that information. Nor does “evidently” imply speculation. It’s speculation on YOUR part that Acme was guessing on this point rather than relating information she had been given by people who knew about the camping trip. You don’t know where Acme got that information.
If the pastors’ approach to precautions with Mr. A failed in keeping CLC parents whose kids might be around him adequately informed is not Acme’s fault. It is the PASTORS’ fault that they are ignorant, quite possibly willfully, of the appropriate measures to keep people safe from sex offenders.
It’s amazing to me that you would minimize this by yelling about how it was 20 years ago. This man sexually abused his child for three years. He only stopped because he got caught. The pastors concealed and minimized his crimes. They knowingly allowed him to become a member again and therefore took on the responsibility of keeping the congregation safe and informed. Greg, Josh, and Corby are all representing the pastoral team and as such, it doesn’t matter one bit whether they were personally involved or not. As members of the pastoral team it is their JOB to acknowledge and made redress for any wrongs that have yet to be fully and openly acknowledged, and their responsibility to protect the safety of members in the here and now.
You need to back off. You’re attacking a woman with a lot of integrity and courage, and defending men who have concealed their wrong-doing until they were forced to acknowledge it. That’s unacceptable, despicable, and not in the least Christ-like.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:51 pm
Matt,
I have no desire to save their system. I’ve played a part in their current “situation”. I think that I AM the one who is allowing people to be grown ups, offering no advice to the parties involved. I saw a whole lot of “advice” yesterday, so I can’t say the same for others.
August 13th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Jim #295 :D
August 13th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
I think I understood you but obviously other did not. ACME said-I’ll admit, the reaction was not what I expected, and I definitely had an “Oh, shoot” moment, but I am trying to do the right thing. I wrote,”It did not seem like you meant to cause such a stir but that is what happened.”
The reaction was what I was responding too. Greg and Corby are good men who had nothing to do with the events many years ago. They have their own issues like we all do. Greg in particular has gone to great lengths to right his wrongs. Please give them a break and a chance. They and Josh are getting pounded from all sides.
So the trashing of Corby was inadvertent but the response was not yours but MOM and the rest of the bloggers. I just wish we all watched our words more carefully. The pastors are in a tough spot with Mr. A he is a person who needs care and someone who proven himself capable of doing horrible things. They need to care for him and watch him at the same time without sinning against ,children,parents and anyone else.
No attack on you just the response to your words. God bless you and your family
August 13th, 2011 at 12:58 pm
It amazes me to see people dumping on perfectly reasonable advice that anyone who meets with the pastors should take serious precautions. AS A TEAM (I could care less what Greg has done on his own time) these men have amply demonstrated they are only willing to consider the possibility that they’ve wrong after their hands have been forced. There’s no reason to trust them. The burden of proof is on THEM. How people can give them the benefit of the doubt with their sincerity -- and suggest that victims of serious abuse at their hands do the same -- just because of a few measly “apologies” forced by circumstances and “outreach” to the blog (forced by the fact that everyone is reading them and they’re causing serious discontent) is amazing to me. Sincerity is proven over time. There’s nothing wrong with questioning the sincerity of people who have a record of lies, concealment, and deceit. Amazing.
“friend” -- So we’ll be judged for every word and keystroke one day, but the pastors won’t be judged for not warning the church about predators in their midst? Interesting priorities there.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
@Jim@#303.
1. I dispute your characterization of manipulation. Further, if this is just a “members only” club, on your view, you’d exclude anyone from reading and commenting.
2. As to your desire and hope for engagement with Mr. Somerville, I support your view. It would be very healthy for the exchange. It would help CLC perhaps, since Mr. Harris has indicated that this is under review. It would be a win-win for records for review. I actually think your point well taken, aside from your expressed irritation.
3. Having said that, I still commend counsel and a written record, but I’ve said that before. I’ll stand by that. Intelligent adults can accept or decline that view.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
“There was an offer to have a conversation. Who knows where it would have led…repentance, reconciliation, RESTITUTION?
”
Jim, CLC does not need to meet with exclcer’smom to have “REPENTANCE”. Their repentance comes from a work of the Holy Spirit. She does not need to be there. In fact, had repentance happened, she would have heard from them long before the scandal became public.
But they think what they did was normal. In fact, his letter proves it in that they only admit they did not “care” for her properly. No, they protected and helped a sexual pervert while accusing her of self induced poverty. That is criminal.
Yet, no conviction of the Holy Spirit for 20 years?
I think you are beating up the wrong people.
If I am only judging words, I would trust Donald with my treasures much more than anyone at SGM or CLC. His counsel was wise. And not self serving like SGM/CLC’s counsel tends to be for people. What does Donald have to gain or lose from it?
As to reconcilation and restitution, those are whole other topics on their own.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
“I have no desire to save their system. I’ve played a part in their current “situation”. I think that I AM the one who is allowing people to be grown ups, offering no advice to the parties involved. I saw a whole lot of “advice” yesterday, so I can’t say the same for others.”
Jim, I am not following you at all. Why did your comment sound like you are bent on exclcersmom meeting with them? As if it is her duty? and why so angry because you think Donald is influencing her from it?
Again, your comment sounded like you did not think she was a grown up in her own right and could make decisions for herself. Also, she thanked Donald for his wise counsel.
Let me also remind you that CJ brought in a whole lot of “outsiders” to this mess when he had Mohler, Duncan, etc weigh in early.
Some of those guys are on payrolls where some of us give. CJ made it our buiness. Take that up with him.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Work,
Please make some progress!
I think WE is universal like in everyone on earth.
We will all be judged for every word and keystroke someday. That means everyone pastors included.
Please pick a fight with someone else.
Jesus help us!
August 13th, 2011 at 1:14 pm
Donald, you do come off as a tiny bit pompous. Do you think you might consider posting maybe just twice a day? And then do short posts -- one brief paragraph at most. And think carefully about what you might post before you do so. Would you be open to doing that?
August 13th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
@ Jim: have you read all of exCLCer’s mom’s recent comments re. finding out certain things about Mr. A.?
I have no stake in any of this, but I understand what she’s saying, and think it’s a good decision. (fwiw.)
if there really *is* an attempt at openness going on, I don’t think one person’s choice will shut it down. People have very good reason to be suspicious of overtures like the one Kris posted.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
“Donald, you do come off as a tiny bit pompous. Do you think you might consider posting maybe just twice a day? And then do short posts – one brief paragraph at most. And think carefully about what you might post before you do so. Would you be open to doing that?
”
Joe, why not skip over them, yourself? Perhaps some people like his posts and appreciate his input. Why not let the blog owners decide?
Besides, Pompous is in the eye of the beholder. Just like “humility” is for others. :o)
August 13th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
What’s going on here pisses me off and makes me want to stop reading these blogs. I’m a long time lurker who is on your side, but seriously…some progress is made and everyone on here is so D**n cynical and discouraging. If your not part of the problem or the solution, then maybe give your opinion, then shut up. A couple people on here dominate everything and discredit this blog….in my opion…and now I’ll shut up.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Donald-no it’s not a members only club. This is not my blog, and you’re obviously free to say what you have to say. I just found it interesting that someone with no skin in the game ensured that he was the loudest voice.
Matt-I still haven’t given advice to any involved parties. I addressed someone who had, and it was not with the intent of addressing anyone but him. This isn’t my first rodeo, and I fully understand why someone would decline their offer. This is going to sound cocky, but I don’t have to prove my cred to anyone who’s paying attention. Regarding CJ, his reign is over, and has nothing to do with this. he’ll be back as prez, but there will be far less people saluting.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
@Joe@#312. I’ll admit to being in the books perhaps too long. “Wide reading has forever ruined me” in one sense. On the other hand, it has given insights and protections. Sentence structures can be long. I do think about what is posted more often than not, e.g. the post about the essential wave-off from reading the Detwiler documents and the Survivor Blogs. That was interesting. Another, if closely studied is the “preliminary panel’s” report. It’s not that strong and has mitigating disclaimers in it. Upon several reads of it, there’s interesting observations to be had. I haven’t posted on that, but there are some interesting things said that aren’t very deep or analytical. Actually, the studying goes on…am about six posts backwards (in time) and attempting to digest witnesses reports on this blog. 1000s of posts under review. Authoritarianism, sin-sniffing, autocracy, legalism, micro-management, mandatory care groups, church polity, fiscal issues, and other themes emerge--they aren’t my themes, but the themes of witnesses or posters over time. As to 1-2 posts per day, we’ll see. There’s no interest in hi-jackery. Adults are free to dismiss what’s posted, counterpost, or rebut. But, back to your point, thanks.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
For what it’s worth -- Having had a parent do me much harm when I was young (not sexually, but otherwise) I understand the distrust when an olive branch is seemingly extended by those that have caused damage in the past.
I also made the conscience decision to walk away rather than fight for what should have been rightfully mine. Rehearsing the past was more than I was willing to endure. It was easier just to walk away… The bottom line for me was that I had Christ. Realistically I needed nothing more. He is everything I need.
I agree the public offer is indeed historic. But I think they can also reach out behind the scenes and put in place some provision to make the harmed feel “safe”.
This is new and uncharted territory for both sides. It’s not surprising that the road is a bit rough right now.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:28 pm
Numo,
Mom should be supicious but there was nothing new in the post that started the furor. Corby simply stated the policy for Mr. A. Mom said the policy was not followed because she knew of an incident where a non-church related event (camping trip)took place and apparently the protocal was not followed. Is everything that Mr. A and his family does under CLC supervision? I hope CLC does not have the power to supervise all of someone’s activities. Do we really want CLC taking on that type of control in someones life?
August 13th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
“friend” -- there was no trashing of Corby, inadvertent or otherwise. When acme realized that there was a disconnect between what she was told and what exCLCer’s mom knew to be the case, she said just that -- asked where the disconnect was (comment 239). She did not for a second imply that Corby had lied to her. ExCLCer’s mom believed it to be a lie -- and frankly, though I agree that there’s no reason to assume to the pastors knew about the camping trip, I don’t blame her for suspecting a lie in this case, given how many lies and half-truths the pastors have allowed to float around about their family.
Unlike you, I do know where acme got her information from and I know her to be incredibly fair-minded to the pastors despite everything they’ve done to her and her family. I ordinarily don’t comment here any more, but I won’t stand by while acme is attacked. She’s been a huge support to me and so many others -- a REAL friend to the friendless left hurt by Sovereign Grace. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:36 pm
friend of the friendless said: “It truly is a shame that no matter what the pastors do at this point it will be pick apart until some fault is found.”
Yes, it is truly a shame that it is the only way to protect victims of narcissism. We cannot let up. It may not change the Narcissist, but that is not my concern at this time.
My concern is for the victims and future victims. And if it is true that Greg is allowing his child to be around Mr. A that shows some not just little fault but a huge fault. Does his child know what Mr. A has done? I am not worried that his son would become a victim but just being in the influence of him is too much.
Is that child Ok with it? Is Greg really Ok with it? Is Greg’s wife really Ok with it? Greg’s bio says he has six children, does he have daughters? If so, how do they feel about their brother hanging around Mr. A or has this all been kept from them. Just out of respect for his sisters, brother should not be hanging around this person. Just the fact that Mr. A even is there at that church is hideous. The ONLY positive I see in that is that at least SOME people do know him and have a watchful eye whereas if he went somewhere else, he would have totallly free reign among the unsuspecting at all. But just the fact that he even hangs around the same place is proof of his dangerously psycho narcissistic nature. All he needs is just one person to believe in him and he is dillusional.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Wow Jim. You really sound like a man who has learned how to benefit from other people’s lack of information. Why in the world would you denigrate a man (Donald Philip Veitch) for offering his honest advice to a victim to try and help prevent her from being re-victimized? Or are you questioning his motives in offering this advice? If so, who the f*ck are you to judge him???
Also, your postings would imply my mother is an idiot who is unable to hear multiple viewpoints and decide for herself what is the appropriate course for her and her family. Perhaps that is not the case; perhaps you simply are a poor communicator.
Joe: Who made you the boss of the forum? Why can’t Jim limit his postings to 2 per day? I have been victimized by CLC and I feel I am benefiting by Donald’s postings. And for the record, he doesn’t sound pompous, he sounds educated and informed. Just because you don’t agree with the opinion his knowledge base has formed, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value.
p.s. Don’t bother telling me how “ungodly” I sound. I believe in Science and even if I didn’t my CLC experience would have made god someone I want nothing to do with even if I did believe in him.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
If CLC wants to do things differently from now on, here’s a suggestion for them. Let them begin by removing themselves from lofty pedestals and acting like regular people.
If GS is serious about getting to the bottom of things, and is not just ‘tasked’ with handling this as one of his duties, let him come here and post like a regular person, interact back and forth in the comments, work through the messy process of communication, maybe learn a few things. I realize he is a busy man, pastor, etc., etc., etc., but I dare say not much of what they have going on right now is more important than this stuff.
This whole SGM thing of the guys on high handing down carefully-crafted statements and letting others run interference and interpret things favorably for them is bogus.
Honestly, I think Greg S. is probably a really nice guy, but those in the upper echelons of SGM have lost touch with what ‘normal’ even looks and sounds like. How insular they are!
I don’t know this Mr. A. character, either, but he could do the right thing and ask to speak to congregation and make a full confession of his crimes and then bow out and go elsewhere. Stinks for his second family, but less than it dd for his first one.
Just like CJ could practice what he preaches (“worst sinner I know”, “better than I deserve”), confess to as much, bow out, retire from SGM on his book royalties (and conference fees from his fans who don’t care about his hypocrisy), and save everyone a bunch of money and a ton of grief.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Jim- we don’t know where it would have led. We don’t know if Greg might have been godly and wonderful and made things right. You are correct- we will never know if the conversation does not happen.
Unless you have some sure Agabus style prophecy about the future, no, you don’t know what can happen.
However, the best indicator of the future in any situation is past history. Whether economics or a medical disease or growing plants or anything else, the best way to predict the future is to examine simlar situations in the past and learn from them. Yeah, you might strike oil, or have a miracle healing, or get an unusual bumper crop like last year. Or, you might go bankrupt from all the debt, you might die, you might lose a harvest. The most intelligent way to make a decision is to LOOK AT THE PAST.
So what do we see in SGM past? Almost every single time, the pastors are right and the sheep are unsubmissive sinners. It almost never fails.
Is history changing? Did the Berlin wall come down? Did the Soviet Union break up into independent republics and allow churches and bibles in after 70 years of tyranny? It can happen.
I am actually very optimistic about Josh and CLC. Very. I have every hope that this can go the way of the USSR 20 years ago. Really. And I think it is possible that sex abuse survivors might not get the same rotten treatment this time around.
But, based on 30 years of history, it is up to CLC/ Greg to do more now to gain trust, not up to mistreated former members to expect change. It is actually right and intelligent for them to base a decision on 30 years of history, not on unknown future possibilites.
Just my opinion.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
@ 5years -- :word
August 13th, 2011 at 1:48 pm
Sister2. I’m sorry. I wasn’t trying to imply your mother can’t make up her mind for herself. Ask around-I’m a VERY poor communicator. Again, I’m very sorry.
Kris & Guy, it seems I’ve left a mess on your carpet. This will escalate into an ugly argument if I don’t bow out. Matt and Donald-you know where to find me should we need to continue.
August 13th, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Work,
I did not say she implied anything. I did say that the response to the post was what caused the furor and the trashing. Please reread my posts. Because she is your friend and you care for her I hope you appreciate that I ended my last response explaining my position with asking God to bless her and her family which was also apart of my second post. Since Corby spoke to you then you know that he has been open to speak to anyone and give the church policies. Please give him a break you don’t have to wory about me I have my armor on and I live in cyberspace.
BTW the definition of evidently is the following:
1. without question; clearly; undoubtedly
2. to all appearances; apparently they are evidently related
That kind makes the statement that follows seem true.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
Work,
I did not say she implied anything. I did say that the response to the post was what caused the furor and the trashing. Your right the trashing was more Greg than Corby. Please reread my posts. Because she is your friend and you care for her I hope you appreciate that I ended my last response explaining my position with asking God to bless her and her family which was also apart of my second post. Since Corby spoke to you then you know that he has been open to speak to anyone and give the church policies. Please give him a break you don’t have to worry about me I have my armor on and I live in cyberspace.
BTW the definition of evidently is the following:
1. without question; clearly; undoubtedly
2. to all appearances; apparently they are evidently related
That kinda makes the statement that follows seem true.
The post evidently caused a lot of problems last night in the blogosphere which was my point.
As for the yelling I was only making the point that the men who have to deal with this from CLC had nothing to do with the specific event 20 years ago. I did say it was wrong! what Mr. A did there is no excuse. But CLC security at this point is as tight as can be and the current leaders are not the same as 20 years ago.
I hope there can be reconciliation but if we learned anything it is that words matter too.
God bless you and your family and I really mean it! I really don’t need any enemies I should use your example and rarely post.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Phoenix,
Thanks for sharing both about the realities of being a pedophile as well as your family’s own personal experience. I find it odd that an organization like CLC/SGM, that so vehemently focuses on sin and the wretchedness of humanity, so easily glosses over the actions of a sexual offender and is to quick to “reinstate” them, so to speak, while practically shunning the victims. I don’t say that I find it odd because I have no clue about why this mindset toward sexual offenders and offenses exists, but I say it because I know EXACTLY why this mindset exists. It is indicative of the extreme dysfunction and emotional issues that exist first among the core leadership of the CLC/SGM. It also has to do with the foundational basis of their teachings which relate to male superiority. A bunch of extremely dysfunctional dudes got together and created a “church”, with policies that mirror the extreme abuse and dysfunction they experienced.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:19 pm
I have chided Donald for his what some might think ‘pompous’ but I was rather amused by it and he does have excellant advice. Please forgive me if I’m so off base Donald, but ever since you arrived, my visual of you is Pierce Morgan, and I am Sharon Osborne and others are Howie Mandel.. But I sort of picture you saying… Eegads, you actually watch that dither?
August 13th, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Funny, the person I saw as pompous was the one who couldn’t stoop to have his comments appear with the rest of ours in the comment section, but sent a special message to Kris asking if he could be a guest blogger and his remarks featured as such.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
And since then he has been too busy or something to stick around for the conversation.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
Sister… I didn’t say I disagreed with what he said. It’s just that when you log on and there are twenty new, VERY LONG, posts by the same person. And those posts are saying things in a long-winded fashion, it can kill the conversation. I’m of the view that if you really are “educated” and “well read” you should be able to express yourself succinctly. That’s what I meant about writing less and shorter. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who has started skipping over such long and repeated messages. If they were briefer then maybe more people would read them and more would benefit from them? Irv is a good model for saying a lot with relatively few -- and relatively infrequent -- words.
I don’t know… I’m probably wrong… but maybe some of this stuff could be emailed? Or stated more briefly?
August 13th, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Work,
I just reread my statement in question and could see your and ACME’s point. I thought my point was clear but probably not and could be easily construed as personal attack on ACME. Sorry! I guess I should have a short life as a blog commentor.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
Re: the current back-and-forth about “members only club,” the number (and tone) of blog posts, etc. —
Over the last number of years reading here, I’ve found a helpful analogy--emphasize analogy--for thinking about the overall community here. I’ve done a fair amount of research on political exile organizations, group of folks who, for one reason or another, have had to flee their beloved homeland and live in a “host country.” Those organizations are made of individuals with very different views of the homeland. Some want the evil home regime changed and changed quickly; others are convinced that slow is better and that the politics of the home country can change through soft pressure. Some spent a ton of time wanting to “politicize” new and recent arrivals to the “host country” while others just want to forget the travails of the home regime and start afresh. Some are the historians and archivists, focusing their attention on documenting and memorializing the home regime’s sins. Some form their own “governments in exile,” ready and waiting to take power once the home regime falls, while still others are, in fact, working their own “double game,” pretending to be against the home regime while all the time working on its behalf.
A very long-winded paragraph to say — again, emphasizing that the above is only an analogy — when you post here, expect that there are readers and community members who fit into each of these categories (and sometimes more than one). Think about where you might fit, and consider that there are others who, perhaps as wounded as you by the home regime, think very differently about what needs to happen back in the old country. The analogy isn’t perfect; unlike political exile organizations, you have some folks in this forum who are actually still living in the old country and looking, hoping and working for change.
BTW — I’m one of those who are still in the “home regime” and I’m hoping for change. A current 6 year member at a SGM church, which means I didn’t personally experience the 1980s, 1990s or early 2000s in the movement.
August 13th, 2011 at 2:29 pm
Acme,
I am sorry for my statement that personally attacked you. God bless you and your family
August 13th, 2011 at 2:33 pm
Oz, that is excellent!
August 13th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
My 317 is in moderation…
To all:
The past few weeks have stirred up a lot of pent up feelings and passion for what is right and true. For some, it’s been pushed down for decades. And we’re going to say some things out loud before thinking it through. No big deal. We’re on the same team as we want to see the deeds done in darkness exposed.
And honestly, I’m not attempting to defend “The Donald” here but this is my “observation” (I’m really beginning to hate that word): “The Donald” came, read, studied, asked questions and given his apparently well read background came to this conclusion: “What the heck? This ain’t church! And if it ain’t church, why do these leaders get treated like this is church?”
And yes, the scribe is indeed wordy…
And Jim, you have a patience and passion I do not possess.
We could all be better at saying more with less. As my homiletics teacher once said, “The message doesn’t have to be eternal to be immortal”.
Back to my Saturday chores…
August 13th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
“This is going to sound cocky, but I don’t have to prove my cred to anyone who’s paying attention.”
I think it is a shame we have to prove our cred to anyone here. Blogs are information and opinions. The “nobodies” are talking amongst themselves. I think that is a good thing. Quite healthy, in fact. I think you probably share that opinion.
Your reaction to Donald’s counsel to exclcermom was curious in light of what we know about CLC both from history and even currently.
” Regarding CJ, his reign is over, and has nothing to do with this. he’ll be back as prez, but there will be far less people saluting.”
We will see how that plays out in the Reformed brand movement. I would not count the eggs too soon. He has a Clintonian flair about him. And a lot of Reformers have blurbed his books, sold them, promoted him, etc.
As far as I am concerned, I hope both CLC and SGM cease to exist as organizations. Would be healthier for everyone. And that is just my opinion, btw. :o)
August 13th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Kris,
Please feel free to delete any of my posts today. I have been guilty a of a personal attack on ACME which will serve no good purpose. We all will be judged by God for every word and keystroke including me.
Sorry ACME and Work,
Sincerely,
Friend of the Friendless
August 13th, 2011 at 2:51 pm
“Funny, the person I saw as pompous was the one who couldn’t stoop to have his comments appear with the rest of ours in the comment section, but sent a special message to Kris asking if he could be a guest blogger and his remarks featured as such.
”
LOL! Good point, Rose!
At least Donald attempts to engage the peasants instead of only fellow officers. :o)
August 13th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
The other conclusion made by “The Donald”: “Thay ain’t what thay say thay is and thay’s too ignerent to know the difference!”
Couldn’t let that slide by…
August 13th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Dear Friend, I forgive you — and I hope you stay and keep commenting. It’s tough work reading carefully and responding with just the right words, not knowing which words or phrase or statement may trigger what.
Speaking of triggers, it may be helpful to remember (or learn) what our own triggers are, because it’s much harder to moderate our responses when they are tripped.
Jim, I love and admire you and Carole. If God is at work here, who can stand against Him?
August 13th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
The way I see it, Matt, is that when Christ did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped he emptied himself and became a human baby with no fleshly authority in either State or Church. I was willing to go along with Jim saying how it was historic to have an SGM or CLC pastor post on a blog, but, yes, I was hoping for more. It was just too much to ask that he engage the way the rest of us do.
August 13th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
YES. YES, Mr. A, if he is a member of a church SHOULD be under their supervision. He should not be involved with a band that has young people in it. He should not be going on camping trips with families. He should not be involved with children PERIOD. I can not understand why the pastors over him do not see and have not seen this as a priority in his life. He sexually abused a child. They should be doing everything in THEIR power to make sure that this will never happen again to ANY child. Just “informing” parents ahead of time before their children are in his band is NOT enough. He should not HAVE such a band. Let him play with grownups in a band.
I also am VERY surprised that ANYONE here who knows about what happens when one is asked to have a conversation with a SGM pastor goes thru would have a problem with exCLCer’s Mom (or anyone else considering talking to a representative from SGM) having legal counsel with them, and having the conversation recorded. I am quite *shocked* actually that after all “survivors” have been through that this would be a problem. :scratch
August 13th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
Wow, getting whacked by a few false conclusions, a few imputations and some assumptions. I could debunk them too, but it is off-topic. With Jim, I too don’t want to leave a mess on the carpet. It’s unhelpful. Kris’s trajectory has frequently addressed the big picture issues, the underlying culture and history. Ozymandias @#331 also captured one part of it, e.g. archivists, a commendable post, that is, there are different communities within a larger one. He gets it. But I think FriedFish has caught the sense of it, that of an historian. If anything, there has been, on my end, an insistence on deliberation, caution, quiet analysis, and prudence. I repeat a delightful post by Fried Fish #284. Yes, history should be recorded fairly and accurately. That includes a written rebuttal to Mr. Detwiler, “for the record.”
– Off Topic Warning —
With nods to folks here like Donald P Veitch, Ozymandias, Ex CLCer’s Mom – and others… who have the mindset of a historian. I had an aunt who passed away several years ago, who was a university librarian by trade, and had a keen interest in our family history as well as the historical and cultural influences that shaped those family members’ world views and perspectives on current events of their time, politics, religion, and culture. She was also a hoarder, you could barely walk through her house…
Where I’m going with this, is that there are a number of stories either from the past or in play now, both of the disastrous effects of SGM leadership’s behaviors, and of characteristics of and changes in SGM’s doctrine, policies and/or polity over the years. I’m sure it would be a gargantuan effort, but am wondering if an expanded version of Jenn Grover’s timeline with a scope and details beyond the BD documents and related events, would be a worthwhile effort (seems to me as though DPV may already be thinking in that direction?). Weave the rabbit trails into a tapestry, as it were. If the SGM/CLC folks ever get to the point of some healthy “Where did we go wrong?” introspection, such an account might “serve” them well (I had a hard time typing that). I think I’ve read in a couple of places where CJ is quite interested in the legacy SGM leaves… maybe an accurate timeline/narrative from the koolaid-free perspective would provide a little clarity on SGM’s true legacy.
Just a random thought.
August 13th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
All…
I have been out and about today (still trying to grasp the whole “vacation” thing). This blog has always been (and will always be) about the survivors, all trying to make sense out of a whole lot of goofy stuff. We will get passionate, we will disagree, but at the end of the day we are on the same team.
With that said, I don’t censor (except in very rare cases, mentioned before about trolls and morons). I have a great deal of respect for all of you (ok…MOST of you), and i believe that this blog has become self correcting. You are all welcome to post your thoughts, be passionate, and cause us all to think. Just abide by the rules of the road and we will be fine.
August 13th, 2011 at 3:43 pm
Mom or sibling….
I meant to ask this before; I’d really like clarification on something. I have no recollection who originally posted this.
There was a statement made that the 11 year old daughter tempted him (Mr A). Was that Mr A saying his step daughter had tempted him? Or was it a CLC pastor saying the girl had tempted him? Somebody else? Do you recall?
Thanks.
August 13th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
DPV:
Well, if I’m off on my conclusions, so be it. I was just attempting to apply some levity. No intent to “whack” anybody on here. While the issues are serious, we may have been taking ourselves too seriously.
August 13th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
#348 -- Thank you.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
@Acme, I am so sorry if my initial responses caused hardship on you. I appreciate that you inquired, and looked to clarify things. We need that kind of truth. For, the record, your speculations had nothing to do with my response either. I am glad to see things resolved with you and friend.
To clarify, the following is what upset me:
I had recently learned about the camping trip, that related to the band-I believe it was called a “Father-Daughter Camping Trip”. My friend had no idea of his past, and was visibly shocked. I was not surprised that he keeps his previous sin secret. What horrified and shocked me was that a pastor would say that,“Yes [Mr. A] is a member who has strict accountability guidelines including informing any parents of children that he interacts with of his past so they can decide their level of interaction.” This is clearly NOT what is going on! My friend has been a member of that church for 15 years now, and never knew! It was only by God’s Grace that I have met her and we came to the realizations of our lives crossing once again!
It upset me to hear such a lie, just as it upset me to hear how the pastors told people to NOT report the cases of child abuse that came before them after my family’s situation.
One can say, maybe this person’s family slipped by someone, or whatever way someone may try to spin it around, but whether this camping trip was a “church event”, or simply “church members going camping”, My friend’s daughter was at risk that weekend, my friend has been a member of that church for years, and no one even told her? And surely Greg should have heard of the event, since his own son plays with that band as well. I’m sorry, but Corby’s statement, at best, sounds like SGM’ese, with some “managerial licensing”, which I prefer to say seems pretty much like a lie to me.
@Jim (#295) Donald was not the one to have any bearing of my personal decision to not meet with Greg! On an earlier post, I said I was going to pray, and be slow to act, and that I had no intention of a meeting with me until I heard God Himself speak to me! What actually changed my mind was the “mis statement” from Corby, “reassuring” another how the “pastors have him under control with strict accountability guidelines”. Hearing that would make anyone believe that the pastors recognize the seriousness of the risk, but if they truly did, a member who had been there for 15 years would know to protect her daughter! Then, I do feel it slightly deceptive that Greg comes, and does not openly relate his relationship there. Add that to my hesitations from the beginning about why is he (Greg) the one coming to us, and not the ones initially involved, and musing about the timing..no, it really had nothing to do with Donald, or Acme-it is all about the pastors there at CLC, and their inability to openly acknowledge their own past wrong doing, and take responsibility for it.
:trainwreck
August 13th, 2011 at 4:04 pm
Okay, in rereading my attempts at levity, it probably isn’t the clearest thing I’ve ever written.
DPV: Let me see if I have your perspective correct:
1. SGM church government and structure isn’t as you see church government and structure in the NT or as applied over the course of church history.
2. While SGM calls itself “reformed”, you don’t see SGM as really being “reformed” as their definition doesn’t fit with the historical context of reformed.
3. The SGM leadership is generally uninformed as to church history.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Re:Guy #348 Yes, we are all trying to make sense out of a lot of goofy stuff!
I know so many of the posts over the years have been so helpful-sometimes it is like swimming in mud. You know you aren’t seeing it clearly, but you ARE seeing something. Then suddenly you read a post and WHAM! someone hits the nail right on the head and you think, Yes! That’s it!!
I have noticed, though, that the posts in this thread do seem more contentious than usual. I can only say that this subject matters a lot to a lot of people, and it is not surprising that we are all feeling emotional. How can we not?
For the most part, though, even though it might take several post interchanges, like Guy says, it almost always “self-corrects” and people apologize, or explain, or just concede that they need to respectfully disagree. I for one appreciate the venue for open, honest exchange of thoughts and ideas.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
” I was willing to go along with Jim saying how it was historic to have an SGM or CLC pastor post on a blog, but, yes, I was hoping for more. It was just too much to ask that he engage the way the rest of us do.
”
I do not think the CLC pastors can risk actually “engaging” here. They would not control the venue or questions. And it is all about having “control”.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Thanks, Roadwork, I’m for levity when needed.
1. As to church government, am more Presbyterian, seeing the need for Elders and built-in-controls of governance, rules of order, congregational participation (in the congregation, but also at the levels of presbytery and general assemblies), and the Book of Order. As to SGM polity, I see some troubles, e.g. no courts of redress. I even have a bit of an eye for LCMS governance. At this point, my sense--from again, attempted readings--is that Mr. Mahaney has been a functional Archbishop with a small group of Bishops, like David Harvey and others. Polity and governance is one of the several issues that SGM appears to be hammering out.
2. As to “Reformed,” no, I don’t see SGM as “Reformed,” but that’s a big question.
3. As to church history and what SGM-leaders know about church history, I couldn’t possibly rule on that one. It’s a good question though. One worth examining, e.g. surveys and studies. I’d love to see what attendees study at the Pastors’ College study. More generally, beyond SGM, this scribe is concerned widely about a small interest in that subject by Pastors--not all of course, but widely.
I hope this helps, although, discussion of those issues are off topic. They are good issues, but ones that do not advance the narrative. I’m still trying to get my arms around the big picture. That, itself, has been a ride.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Matt, i agree that there is definitely a control issue. It has been the MO of sgm over the ages…however, i see them (sgm..primarily clc) testing the waters of late and i believe there are a lot of pastors that want to do the right thing…but a lot of them don’t know how to do it. The “blogs” were evil for so long -- full of gossip and slander. Now, they are at least acknowledging us. Who’s to know what will happen next? I am (and always have been) open to a dialogue with any SGM leaders. However, I don’t play by the SGM rules and it freaks them out a little.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:29 pm
Wow, blogosphere’s been busy since yesterday afternoon! First of all “Hail to the Redskins, hail Victory….” (though it’s still tragic the cowgirls own the rights to that song). I was working at the game, but was still able to see most of it and could I be so optimistic as to say, we aren’t looking too shabby?!
Now for the long part (warning, this might make DP Veitch look succinct, lol):
Ok, first of all, mom, I understand why it upset you, the lies, the fake accountability, etc, but, please, please, for your own sake, don’t get all upset over a stark realization that the followers (current pastors) of their own mentors (CJ, Gary, John, etc) of this “-ism” may actually be not so far removed from the same way of thinking as their mentors. In practice, some things tend to change over time with leadership changing hands, but principle is part of the -ism’s core values and culture, and doesn’t change so quickly just because new ppl are “in charge”.
I was worried about the possibility of you being unprepared for the conversation on the blog, and I know you must go through a bazillion ranges of emotion while abruptly reading, recalling, and analyzing the situation all over again after so long. But for me, reactionary blogging smells a bit like giving others words a little too much control over our emotions, and I don’t want that for you. I was afraid your eternal optimism and faith --in what could only be called miracles if they were to happen in spite of all the evidence and experience-- would be a set up for another disappointment. I learned a long time ago that the only way to avoid disappointment is to have no expectations. You don’t have to defend yourself on here, or even let anyone know how ______ it makes you, to think/hear/read this or that. Let me do that for you. I have learned to replace emotion with reason; with practical and critical thinking –(we could argue all day if that’s a healthy thing or not, but it is what it is). Nothing anyone says, lies or criticism could hurt me at this point, so let me take that on.
Mom, I know that a part of you always wants to believe the best, hope for the best, and wants so much to think others will see through the wall of -ism somehow because it’s so obvious to you what’s practical when it comes to the protection of victims, or the safety of children, or the way people treat each other. But “the best” is often a lofty goal and most often never realized. I’m not saying you need to give up hope, but be realistic, and it will protect you from disappointment. Experience (the past) is always the best indicator of future behavior. So put your efforts and raw emotions into your chronicles, not this blog – you can’t control what others do – if someone or a church wants to expose their kids to a child molester and has faith that god or christians or a woman who would marry a molester will suffice as protection– well that’s unfortunately and sadly their choice. All you or anyone can do is warn them, and thats what we are here for. Expect the lies and the justifications- its par for the course.
The real issue isn’t Mr A – it’s the system of the –ism that would provide covering and misguidance, under a false sense of security, even in a situation such as this. Mr A could die tomorrow, and the system for these things to happen would still be in place there. Our story, Noels, SGMnots, all the other stories —well, its not really about each of us individually. We could all focus on these situations in depth and get easily sidetracked from the real issue. Our stories are the symptoms, the consequences, if you will, of the real issue. The victims of course deserve the full validation and appropriate apologies, but if truly sincere, it would be a natural result of a change in the real issues, instead of a means to quiet the storm so as not to disturb the profitable –ism machine from continuing.
The SGM/CLC culture breeds arrogance, and instills calvanistic obedience, and encourages the acceptance of real evils (protecting and covering) while focusing on and instilling fears over imaginary evils (sin sniffing) in a one sided manner (“we will question you, but don’t you dare question us”). It models a hierarchical, authoritarian organization. It’s like the ultimate money making pyramid scheme, a top-down enterprise, made up of a god on top, then the pastors the next level down, and the great needy “sinful” masses at the bottom, with those pastors above them doling out, in turn, the rules and the guidance directly (and solely) imparted to them “from god”, backed by the threat of eternal D**nation or at least exile and excommunication.
This indoctrination model is a dangerous influence against social change toward freer, more democratic, inclusive forms of society. It’s contrary to true humanism. If this weren’t the culture there, then nobody would be having to even discuss how to “handle” situations of child abuse, or spiritual abuse, or any of this – the humanistic value of protecting each other from suffering would be instinctual and no one in a church would have to go to the next rung up on the pyramid to get practical advice from pastors, who’s power and income is a determining factor in the advice they give out. They would be allowed to trust themselves more, having not been broken down over the years with a message of “you’re a sinner; you can’t trust your own judgment; trust us, we know better than you do; we can tell you what’s right; your sinner instincts are wrong”. Pampy said it well in #330.
Acme – I understand what you were trying to say (Interesting. Where’s the disconnect? With the pastors and/or with Mr. A?) I think by involving themselves so much, as they did, in the defense of Mr A over the years, using their own names to testify to his character, they were putting themselves in a position (consciously or not) to be, in a way, responsible for him and his “care” or ongoing “treatment”. So in that, they would be the ones who most need to understand that trusting a pedophile or his wife or friends to be responsible for disclosure to unsuspecting kids and their parents is a very risky thing to do. Any professional treating a pedophile would NEVER recommend testing their wellness by spending time with children. That’s absurd!
Legally the pastors might not be responsible for full disclosure, but morally aren’t we all responsible for disclosing information for children’s protection in every way? The disconnect, is that the willingness to tithe and the ability to present a “family image” in this church, is viewed as proving ones righteousness or virtually making one trustworthy.
The camping trip, the band – not the only circumstances – from what I know “kids classes” are held in Mr A’s home on a regular basis, with church members children attending (presumably solicited through the mutual church relationships), who are also not informed of his history. It’s not odd to anyone that a person who struggles with pedophilia would surround himself with kids all the time? Boggles my mind. I wouldn’t want to risk finding out how tempted he was or wasn’t by using my own children as a test.
Joe said:
Hey Joe, get a phone/laptop with a faster connection if you cant scroll past the longer posts you’re not interested in reading. :wink: Its just that simple.
ExCLCers sister2 – Hey you, welcome. #323 -Well said. And I agree, moms no idiot and can make her own decisions. The confidence and freedom to make our own decisions is something I really really learned to value after all the mess with CLC.
Ozymandias -- #336 – nice analogy (did I mention I love analogies)
August 13th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
exCLCer’s mom, you didn’t cause me any problems. No worries on that score!
I agree that Greg should have revealed his relationship with Mr. A — surely he knew who we were discussing here.
There also needs to be a clear procedure in place for informing parents. I had a conversation with my daughter about this — and showed her the picture of the band and explained what happened and reviewed again good touch/bad touch, possible scenarios, and telling me no matter what.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:38 pm
@ 5 years (#349) I think what you may be remembering are two different situations. I know how sometimes we can be reading so many different statements, I keep a pen and paper next to me now! LOL I will re-iterate what i think you are asking for clarification on:
When meeting with Gary Ricucci, he did not like me continually referring to the perp as a pedophile-he begged to differ over such a label being applied. (I do have a letter from a professional counselor in my possession that clearly defines him as such, BTW) When we looked up the word in the dictionary, and it read, “One who is sexually attracted to children” Gary’s response to that was, “Well, I think he was more attracted to the woman she was becoming rather than the child that she was”. At no time, to my knowledge, did anyone even suggest that she tempted such a thing, and thankfully, no one ever tried to imply that she was anything less than a victim. I would have left sooner if they had! Even when the Mays suggested I send her elsewhere, so that he could come back to be the head of household and father to his other children, they were not saying it as her having done wrong. As wrong as they were in their statement to me with that, I believe what Kathy was thinking was why have 8 other children “suffer without their father” due to one child not being ready to receive him back in the home. Now, we can all see the folly in that reasoning, but she obviously was full of koolaid. In many ways, I remember her as a wonderful person, just too steeped in koolaid.
What may have caused some confusion was another story that my daughter and I both posted about. A young girl who came to CLC from the Fairfax Church, where she had been molested (a full blown ‘affair’ with a 14 yr old child) by the father in a home where she was taken in as a foster child. She had previously given birth to a child fathered by her school bus driver (who was around 30 yrs old when she was 13). Then, while here in CLC, yet another pastor made a suggestive comment to her while home alone with her, and he was only clad in a bath towel. There is much more to this whole story, but she was told that she “had a spirit of adultery attached to her”. That may be the post that caused you some confusion..
August 13th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Re The Colonel (DPV)
Colonel, welcome, and as others have said, thank you for your service. You retired after what, 30 years?
I was married to a Marine Corps officer for 22 years and I recognize some of their shared characteristics in The Colonel’s posts. The emphasis on leadership and responsibility. The strategic and tactical thinking. The thorough and detailed thought process and the “situational awareness.” The pragmatism/cynicism balance. The soldier/scholar. But most of all, for those who may not know, a Colonel in the Marine Corps really is the same as a General or Flag Officer in the other services in many ways (no criticism of anyone or any service intended — just a point about that unique military culture.) They are used to being LISTENED TO and they must take their own words very seriously. All of this can make their discourse sound a bit alien to the modern blogging/texting/Facebook culture.
In the “for what it’s worth” category. And, even having been buffeted and bothered somewhat myself, I love the give and take and the self-correcting freedom on this blog. I find it a good place to hang out.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Good for you, Acme!! Would that all parents educate their children like you have!
:clap :clap :clap :clap
ExClcer, I am glad to hear your words of wisdom on the whole matter.
I was worried about the possibility of you being unprepared for the conversation on the blog, and I know you must go through a bazillion ranges of emotion while abruptly reading, recalling, and analyzing the situation all over again after so long. But for me, reactionary blogging smells a bit like giving others words a little too much control over our emotions, and I don’t want that for you. I was afraid your eternal optimism and faith –in what could only be called miracles if they were to happen in spite of all the evidence and experience– would be a set up for another disappointment. I learned a long time ago that the only way to avoid disappointment is to have no expectations. You don’t have to defend yourself on here, or even let anyone know how ______ it makes you, to think/hear/read this or that. Let me do that for you. I have learned to replace emotion with reason; with practical and critical thinking –(we could argue all day if that’s a healthy thing or not, but it is what it is). Nothing anyone says, lies or criticism could hurt me at this point, so let me take that on.
You are right, I do need to leave that up to you. Love you.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:53 pm
A little off topic, but this is noted re: C.J. and Carolyn fleeing CLC.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2011/8/13/cjs-flight-from-covenant-life.html
August 13th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
“Matt, i agree that there is definitely a control issue. It has been the MO of sgm over the ages…however, i see them (sgm..primarily clc) testing the waters of late and i believe there are a lot of pastors that want to do the right thing…but a lot of them don’t know how to do it. The “blogs” were evil for so long – full of gossip and slander. Now, they are at least acknowledging us. Who’s to know what will happen next? I am (and always have been) open to a dialogue with any SGM leaders. However, I don’t play by the SGM rules and it freaks them out a little.”
Freaking out is good! It worked for me. :o)
None of us knows how to do the right thing the right way. That is part of the problem.
The Holy Spirit is the one who should be speaking. Not us. And that may not always sound like you think it might. It might be Paul saying he wished they would emasculate themselves. (Because they are Judaizers who make the rules)
As an “outsider”, I see some of the same themes being played out I saw at the mega. People fear saying the right things but the wrong way.
They are judged more on their toneand use of words than the content. This is wrong and simply another cult tactic to control people. We used it all the time.
There was more flack about “how” people said things than what they said. Then people start walking on eggshells fearing the tone instead of focusing on the content.
How does one say nicely they hate what predators do to children and the fallout for a life time? Is there a nice way to say that to those who actually help predators be predators?
Why shouldn’t people be angry about that? As if their anger is worse than what the predator did.
The point is, if you don’t play by their rules, you don’t play. Period.
I think the jury should still be out on whether they are using the blogs to be able to say, “see we reached out”. “You can trust us now”.
(You were right to post the letter, btw)
But the letter had no real content at all if we look at it from an analytical truthful point of view. They are only blaming themselves for how they “cared” for her. Not what they did to help a predator. And that is the real crime.
perhaps in 10yrs, they will admit that. :o)
Let us continue to make it about the victims and not the pastors. They should be the least of our concerns.
August 13th, 2011 at 4:58 pm
“from what I know “kids classes” are held in Mr A’s home on a regular basis, with church members children attending (presumably solicited through the mutual church relationships), who are also not informed of his history. It’s not odd to anyone that a person who struggles with pedophilia would surround himself with kids all the time?”
Ugh.
“When we looked up the word in the dictionary, and it read, “One who is sexually attracted to children” Gary’s response to that was, “Well, I think he was more attracted to the woman she was becoming rather than the child that she was”.”
Ugh.
Thanks Mom.
Prayers.
August 13th, 2011 at 5:18 pm
For ExCLCer’sMom… Waaaaaaay back at post #248 Radically Saved offered some financial assistance since you are currently in school and not working. Matt (post #279) also offered the same and I’m adding myself to the list. If you have a Pay Pal account you can get a Mastercard through it and use it just like any other bank debit card. I am an independent computer field service tech and one of the tech sites I receive work from pays me through PayPal. You can use an anonymous nic there too. Pleeeease allow us to serve you in this way. I know $$$ is tight. I lost my house last year and I’m still digging out but our Father promises to give back far more than we do. :D
August 13th, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Mom….
I am upset, I have to admit. So let me get this straight.
Your ex started to sexually molest her when she was 9 (3 years of it, right?) and a CLC pastor says that he was attracted to the woman that 9 year old was becoming, so it was more like adultery than pedophila, right?
Did anybody ever rebuke him on that, challenge him on that, make him go take some counseling courses, did they do anything at all? This guy is still pastoring? Did he ever apologize?
Ugh.
August 13th, 2011 at 5:20 pm
Thanks for the insight, Phoenix.
The only two Colonels I ever knew were Air Force (retired) and both of them were really hard to get along with from my perspective.
It may also be my background – more like Up in Smoke and Animal House. I thought both of those movies were documentaries.
Maybe I should use a picture of Tommy Chong for my avitar. It would probably help.
August 13th, 2011 at 5:21 pm
@Matt #364 --
Actually, Matt, if you want to be analytical, they are not blaming themselves for anything, nor admitting being deficient in their care in any of the cases we have been speaking of lately here on the blog. Mr. Somerville only acknowledges their feelings of being cared for inadequately, not linking it to anything that CLC/SGM or their representatives may or may not have done.
Mr. Somerville acknowledges his own personal deficiency in providing care over his 14-year tenure, but with no specifics, nor do I believe he was involved in handling any of the abuse cases at the time when they occured. I’m certainly willng to be corrected on that.
August 13th, 2011 at 5:26 pm
5 years, I looked for the reference, but couldn’t find it right off. The abuse lasted from when she was 11 years to 14 years old. I agree with both your Ugh’s