C.J. Mahaney has apparently been gettng lots of concerned inquiries about his leave of absence. He put up a post yesterday to answer his fans’ questions. He said,
Many of you have kindly inquired about my leave of absence and how I will be spending my time during this season. Before I give you an update, I want to take this moment to thank each of you who have expressed your encouragement and your support in prayer.
Some of you have asked where I will be attending church during my leave. That’s a good question, as it’s not uncommon for pastors to take a leave in a church that is away from their home congregations, and this seems wise. During my leave of absence I will be attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church where Mark Dever is the senior pastor. After seeking counsel about this decision, I’ve concluded that this is the best place for Carolyn and me to receive care and counsel, to examine my life and leadership, and to consider my future during this season of reflection. I want to learn all I can during this season, and I pray that this time will benefit not only me but Sovereign Grace as well.
Mark and I have a rich history of friendship. I met Mark thirteen years ago and since then we have become very close friends. Mark has been not only a unique friend but also a mentor to me. I want to continue to take advantage of our friendship and his mentoring as much as possible during this time, benefiting from Mark’s unique pastoral wisdom and his gift of leadership. I am deeply grateful for his kindness and this opportunity. Actually, other than my wife Carolyn and those with whom I have served closely in Sovereign Grace Ministries, no one has had more influence on my life in the last ten years than Mark.
This leave of absence from my role as president of SGM will allow me the time necessary to process the valuable feedback I have received (and continue to receive), and to devote time to consider how I can best serve Sovereign Grace Ministries in the future. I’m seeking and benefiting from the advice of the SGM board and a number of leaders in the broader church—men I admire and who have become my friends over the years. I am approaching this task without making any assumptions or presuming upon any particular outcome. By God’s grace and the kindness of these men I am not lacking wise counsel as I seek to discern the will of God about how I might most effectively serve when this leave of absence concludes.
So for those who have kindly asked, I hope this information is helpful. I deeply appreciate the encouragement and support of so many at this time. I simply do not know how to adequately express this, but I trust you feel my deep gratefulness for your support. And I would appreciate your prayers, given the importance of the decisions before me and their impact on Sovereign Grace Ministries, the pastors I respect the most and the people of our churches for whom I have the deepest affection.
Finally, many of you know that this spring Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, and I were invited to speak at a pastors conference in the Dominican Republic. We are currently in Santo Domingo and the conference (Por Su Causa 2011) begins tomorrow morning. Please pray for us and for this very strategic conference. Earlier, during this same trip Jeff and I, along with Al Pino, visited the pastors that Sovereign Grace Ministries are honored to serve in Cuba. I was deeply humbled by the men and women I met, all of whom display remarkable joy and trust in God. I believe we will be sharing more about this trip on the Plant & Build blog later. In the meantime, please pray for our friends in Cuba and the Dominican Republic and for our friend Al Pino, who represents Sovereign Grace in our work with these remarkable saints. Please pray that Christ would be glorified in their midst and the gospel would go forth in these countries.
With gratefulness,
C.J.
Despite this explanation, several readers have written to Guy and me to express their ongoing confusion over C.J’s decision to ditch his own denomination family of churches during his “season of reflection.” Some have also expressed curiosity over the idea that C.J. would so quickly take the stage again as a speaker, despite the fact that there’s barely been time for SGM’s panel of “indendent” investigators to have begun their task, let alone issue a verdict.
Brent Detwiler has published a post about this topic on his own blog. You can view that post here.
I put this up yesterday as a comment, but I will post it again here for those who have written to ask what my thoughts are:
For me, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not C.J. is under church discipline at CLC. (Actually, I’m pretty sure that he is not under discipline right now…but I could be wrong.) I have a real problem with the idea that C.J. would go to another church at this time, because he is choosing an action that would not have been available to any other SGM leader in a similar situation, if the leader wanted to remain in good standing with his SGM church.
It’s simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. has options that other SGM pastors would not have.
It’s also simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. can change his song and dance about the “happiest place on earth” without at least getting up in front of his congregation – like a man – and explaining his change of heart to the people!
If C.J. now doesn’t actually think that CLC is the “happiest place on earth,” the Source of all that anyone ever needs for his Christian life, but has instead changed his tune and thinks leaders in the midst of church conflicts ought to be able to ditch their commitments and go wherever they feel they will be “better served” – well, that’s OK, but for God’s sake, C.J. needs to retract all his original teachings about the importance of having a come-hell-or-high-water commitment to one’s specific local church. C.J. needs to stand on that stage at CLC and explain exactly how his beliefs have changed. Then he needs to apologize to everyone who was made to feel like they had no other option but to hang in there and take their SGM lumps and NOT be able to run off to some other non-SGM congregation to be “better served.”
It’s NOT that a change of belief is wrong. It’s that SGM always always always does these changes without proper explanations, retractions, and apologies to those who were hurt by the original false beliefs and teachings.
Thoughts?
August 14th, 2011 at 2:59 am
askquestions,
THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS AMAZING NEWS! The situation is indeed horrible, but how Fairfax responded so far… I want to hug you for bringing this wonderful news! Praise God that there are people that are finally hearing what some of us have been saying for so long. Hallelujah! These guys are doing the right thing.
Guys in Fairfax, two, nay three, nay 5 dozen freaking thumbs up (if I had that many).
People can think I am cynical and bitter or that I complain and moan, but I am telling you THIS is what I am living for lately—-- to not hear pretty words but to see something REAL take place. Awesome, awesome, awesome!!!!!!
Sin will always be with us.
We can’t pretend that we don’t have people in our churches who struggle with this especially destructive sin. And right now, today, Fairfax has stepped up to the plate and swung instead of hiding in the dug out saying, “We’re fine. Everything is fine. Go away.”
Fairfax peeps, I grieve for the victims of this man, this man, and each of you. But Fairfax pastors, I rejoice over this wise choise. Please continue running the bases and carrying this out to a healthy home run.
Woooo hooooo
Stunned
who is so excited by this incredible news that she actually just used a baseball analogy- will wonders ever cease?
August 14th, 2011 at 3:41 am
PS. Please, people in Fairfax, forgive me if in any way, shape or form I made you feel as if I was happy that there is a person in your midst who may have hurt children (either by participating in child porn or in his other actions or in even making small kids feel creeped out- even young ones can have good creep radars). This is truly horrific what is going on in so many ways. Please forgive me if I made you feel that I didn’t care about any possible victims. I do. Deeply.
I was just rejoicing that the situation may have been handled well today.
I know none of you are asking for any advice, but since I (unfortunately) have experience with pedophiles and churches, I’d like to make a suggestion.
Notifying Others
If this man was looking at child pornography, there is a chance that he has acted on his desires. Please, every parent, educate yourself on HOW to talk to your child, then talk to them. Ask questions. Do it in a very non condemning way. (As a small child I told my grown up cousin that I had been touched and where I had been touched- not somewhere you ever want a little girl touched- and the look of disgust and revulsion that I saw on my cousin’s face convinced me that I never wanted to see that again. So I never told anyone else until well into adulthood. A kid sees a face like that, and they are likely to think that THEY have done something wrong.)
Also, on the church’s website and in the church bulletin (if you have one) there needs to be an announcement made over the next 4 or so weeks, asking members to talk to their kids, etc. Ask also for any other possible victims to come forward.
Also, figure out when this person first started attending the church. Go back in your records and contact every single member from that time to inform them what you know and appeal to them to talk to their kids, too. (Just informing current members does no good for any past victims who may be going to church somewhere else.)
Family
If this person has any family in the church, reach out to them like it’s a matter of life or death. It very well may be. These people need your love and care more than any other time in their lives.
Surround them.
Drop flowers from your garden off at their house.
Leave them a note.
Give them a call.
Weep with them if they weep.
Tell them that you do not blame them for what someone in their family is done.
This is a horribly lonely period of time for that family. If they didn’t know about this beforehand, their world has just been shaking in ways I hope most of us will never understand.
Hold their hands. Invite them over for dinner.
And for gosh’s sake, if they have the guts to show their face in church again, I don’t care where you normally sit, you get up from your seat and you go sit beside them. Imagine this. These people come in to church, terrified, but wanting— needing their church family more than ever. They pick a spot and sit down. And one by one, every person in that church gets up to move close to them, to surround them. Sitting there, they are the epicenter of love in that congregation. There are people beside them, in front of them, behind them, their entire church encircling them in love. No one has to say much. They’ll know what you are doing.
Can you think of many more holy moments? I believe God himself would weep for joy if he say that kind of care and compassion in his church. (Some would say he might fall off his throne in shock, but I don’t think He’s going anywhere. Not easily shaken, he is.)
The Person Who Was Arrested
This person- dealing with them will be harder.
It just will be. You’re going to feel all sorts of emotions. Sickness. Revulsion.
It’s going to be hard, but you’re going to have to keep reminding yourself that this person is a sinner, just like you. (My sins may look prettier, but they are still sin.) Keep reminding yourself that this is exactly why Jesus came to live and die and be raised again. To reconcile all man to God, including this person. If this person repents, his sins are washed away in the heavenly realm. He/she will probably be facing some ugly times ahead.
I am not saying this person has repented. They may be a sociopath with a heart hard as stone and using your church as a nice place to prey on kids. They may be full of shame and wanting more than anything to rid themselves of these awful desires and want to protect children in their own right. (Strangely enough, pedophiles actually think they are not harming kids- or at least I think that is what they tell themselves to suppress their guilt. While others truly want to protect kids but can’t control themselves.) This person could be on one end of the spectrum or the other or somewhere in between. God will lead you as long as you keep the above things in mind.
When we had my dad arrested for molesting a child, it made news for millions (literally) of readers in a very large metropolitan area. My whole family thought this was the best reaction of all.
An older neighbor who had known my parents for over 40 years read about it, left her house (she wasn’t one to leave home often) and came to my parents’ house. She walked in and called for my dad. Walked to the basement steps and shouted, “Come on up. I know you’re down there.” Dad came up. She said, “I don’t know whether to hug you or slug you.” So she did both. With one arm she hugged him and with the other she punched him in the chest. My dad got it. We all got it. And to my dying day, I will love this woman for having the wisdom most people never will.
She knew my dad needed love more than any other time in his life. And she knew that he had to know she was disgusted and wasn’t going to sit by and give him any pass.
If this guy ends up behind bars, remember the commands to visit those in prison. (It’ll be a “fun” educational moment few of you will ever experience.)
Others in Your Church (including you) Are Going To Be Shaken
Others in your church- be aware that conservative statistics say that one in three females in America have been sexually assaulted. One in 5 or 7 males. This is rampant. Look around your homegroup. Count the women. Count the men. Realize that there is probably at least one if not more than one person in your homegroup who has been sexually assaulted.
This news is going to stir up emotions for a lot of people, even apart from fears for their own children. Most of us have never really dealt with past abuse. (Let’s face it, when you’re in a movement that for decades was telling victims of abuse to just move on, there’s lots of buried crud under the surface.) Ask questions. Be ready to see a variety of responses. Don’t condemn people for how they feel. Angry. Sad. Scared. Rage. Inappropriate laughing or giggling. Cold. Shut down. These are all normally part of the process. Be there for each other as God does His work. He is the ultimate recycler. He’s probably not going to let this situation go by without using it to begin healing in those who may have buried things for far too long.
Don’t tell anyone to move on.
Really.
Don’t.
No quicker way to shut down the work of the Holy Spirit in someone’s life than to encourage them to stop listening to their body, soul, spirit, emotions, mind than to tell them to ignore those things.
Pastors
Pastors- get the names of numbers of experienced therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists who help children and adults deal with sexual abuse issues. Have these names and their numbers at hand to share with anyone in your church who may need them. Please, recognize that you have NOT had the years of training to help them deal with this.
Have a family meeting or a regular church service where people can ask any question they want. Please, bring in experts to help you plan the meeting and to help answer questions. And when I say experts, I mean professionals who are trained to deal with this. Not just another pastor you respect. We need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and have some respect for those who have been helping communities walk through this for years and learn from them.
I am praying for you all in Fairfax. Walk on in His love and strength.
Stunned
August 14th, 2011 at 6:25 am
@seasonofevaluation: Thanks so much for posting this. I’m currently attending CLC (as for the future, not sure yet) and have been wondering how other SGM churches have been dealing with this. Unfortunately, this is one of the great things about this blog, since this is information you don’t get directly from the church.
Maybe it’s just me, but it seems kind of strange that CJ, as the founder of SGM churches and its president, would charge churches to speak there anyway. You’d think visiting the churches and speaking to build them up would be part of his job. So he collects his salary anyway then gets paid by the churches on top of that to speak? I can understand paying his expenses, but not a speaking fee. Again, maybe it’s me, but that seems like a pretty sweet set-up: establish a bunch of churches and then have them pay you to come there and speak while at the same time you’re collecting a big salary from SGM itself (10% of which comes from the churches themselves to begin with). To all, please correct me if I’m not looking at this situation properly.
August 14th, 2011 at 7:12 am
If CJ has been collecting large fees each time he spoke at a SGM church, it could explain why he has rarely been sighted at CLC in many years.
August 14th, 2011 at 7:45 am
Guy, I love these, :THANK-YOU: They are all fabulous….I would have to say these two are my favorite…:Daze: :Liar:
My son wants everyone to know these are his favorite… :Movie-Time: :Luigi: :Optimus-Prime:
August 14th, 2011 at 7:48 am
@DPV My kids often tell me I am “long winded”-I think it comes from being old enough to have the wisdom of being able to see so many sides and perspectives it seems near impossible to explain! I like your posts, so it you do start posting elsewhere, please let me know!
@Stunned (#102) Well said! I do hope Wycliff can do some training in that. As translators, maybe they will even be able to “speak SGM’ese” where the pastors could understand?
Just a couple of thoughts on that subject:
When my son came home from the war, a young man barely 23, I knew he had seen horrors I could never know. He was in active combat. He watched comrades die, he killed other men. He now has to live with images and experiences that even the most seasoned and wise person would have difficulty processing. I had to “teach” my children how to “treat” him upon his return. Younger ones may be “curious” and want to ask questions that perhaps should not have answers..others may feel so uncomfortable that they could avoid speaking to him, which could make him uncomfortable..and some, in an interest of letting him know our love for him, could keep wanting to express such, to always bring the subject around, that he could not feel “normal” in our midst. I told my children to just laugh with him, like he had never been gone. To not bring the subject up unless he did, and then to let him talk about whatever he wanted to talk about. One could apply this to victims of child abuse as well. We all as humans want to belong, and “feel normal”, or like “we fit in” with those around us. If we are treated with “kid gloves” we no longer feel normal. It is like the uncomfortable feeling you get when you know someone who has lost someone close to them from death. There are things you can say, but nothing will stop their pain at the time, nothing will bring that person back, and only God can heal them. So it is with child abuse as well. If you “shout it from the rooftops”, how would that make a child feel amongst his/her peers? Or, how would it make the other siblings feel? Many tweens/teens would not know how to process this, and could likely set the victim apart because they did not know how to respond. That is why I think churches should “prepare” in advance for such revelations. Teach the parents to teach their children about child abuse (sexual and otherwise). Teach the entire congregation and even neighborhood around you that the victim is no different from anyone else, and you may actually be surprised how many victims are out there, covering up what has happened to them, trying to fit in,! Stunned (#102) blockquoteblockquote So, in saying all of that, I want to reiterate: Perhaps, in our haste and hatred for child abuse, we do need to make sure that those around us are actually prepared to deal with things correctly, lest we cause more harm with our good intentions. Of course, in the meantime, we should not let such abusers remain in the midst to continue their abuse! One reason why these pedophiles have such “free reign” is because people, including victims, feel uncomfortable talking about it. In a church, they are able to hide behind “SGM’ese”, and quoting Bible Scriptures, and their “boy scout” appearance-“He seems like such a good father!”, and those who “know” are afraid of re-victimizing the victim. If a church is prepared-actually speak publicly about the prevalence and the desire to deal harshly and openly with such abusers,it would not entirely stop prevent anything from ever happening, but I will bet an abuser may feel he wants to look for another church where he could better hide!
Also, yeah, Fairfax! :clap
August 14th, 2011 at 8:10 am
You know guys,
I would have been honored if someone from the outside would have cared enough to process the c**p I was involved in such an analytical manner. But no one from the outside or inside cared that much. The show must go on.
I see the suggestions for censoring DVP, not coming from the blog owners, ironically, as just another sgm type of behavior control.
Your leader (the one you once followed) invited others from the outside in by using outsiders for his discipline. That is going to bring in outsiders who don’t know the lingo and are not part of your little club. Get on CJ for that if you do not like some of them or the way they communicate.
You want people to understand and DPV is providing constant detail from the documents. But instead, a few are making it the same old narrow club that sgm has always been. Others won’t speak up and defend. More sgm style behavior.
People who don’t like DPV’s
comments cannot scroll past? They have to chide him publicly? I don’t get that.
I, for one, hope Donald writes a book someday about these charlatans he has studied in depth. And I would be proud to say, I blogged with him.
Ever since Jim came on and blasted Donald, others have felt freerto give it to him more earnestly.
I smell an sgm pattern of behavior.
I have blasted some myself because of their callousness and sin sniffing to the victims or other bloggers.
I say, keep the victims front and center. Forget the leaders. They have had the “care” for a long time. Stop worrying over them except as Exhibit A in the process.
The leaders have had a long time to meet Christ and REALLY know Him….after all, they make their living saying they belonged to Him and modeling “Christian” behavior
while they protected predators and excommunicated people. Oh and made predators “head” of the family. The list is long, isn’t it.
But, if some of you are willing to censor friends, then you might not get it. The kingdom is made up of people who get on our nerves yet love us and care about our burdens but do not add to them.
Think about that sometime.
Signing off with a salute to Donald for caring much for the victims of SGM.
August 14th, 2011 at 8:17 am
ask questions & Stunned,
Glad to hear that after more than 10 years of the suffering of other victims, Fairfax is finally notifying families at risk. Which was one of our BIGGEST concerns and motivation to go public.
I would be a whole lot more encouraged IF in their Family Meeting, JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, there was less spinning/lies/outright deception and a concerted effort to make the victims families look like unforgiving idiots.
August 14th, 2011 at 8:46 am
One more point regarding Fairfax now notifying church members:
This individual is an ADULT. He was arrested, so his name/picture could very well show up in a local paper, imagine the outrage if that happened and Fairfax did NOT notify members?
In the three cases with Noel and our stories, all three perps were minors and the church was NOT notified. When I asked M.Mullery in one of our meetings why they did not inform families at risk, he said, “that perp could grow up and sue us for defamation of character.”
August 14th, 2011 at 8:58 am
I’m an oldie. I began reading and commenting on this blog shortly after Kris first started it.
It’s a place where you can “let it all hang out,” regardless of whether you’re a newbie, oldie, current SGMer, former SGMer, non-SGMer, or SGM-defender.
Kris and Guy are gracious hosts and they open up their “home” to all. They also give a lot of freedom to their “guests” to work things out among themselves when there’s disagreement. When someone gets out of line, they politely show them the “door.”
I read a LOT of blogs. A blog like this is rare.
Thanks, Kris and Guy.
August 14th, 2011 at 9:10 am
Thank you @DK # 104! That is what I was trying to say earlier. CJ hasn’t been in CLC consistently for years..this needs to be noted.
August 14th, 2011 at 9:30 am
Hi Mr. Veitch (and all)--
I am chiming in a little late. Wanted to say that I do appreciate all your efforts to understand this whole SGM thing. I know that it seems very bizarre to people who haven’t lived it, and it does take some time to process.
I was trying to explain about CJ stepping down to some of my family (who are aware of SGM but haven’t been in it), and it was really hard to say it in a way that made sense!
So, Mr. Veitch, thank you for being here.
August 14th, 2011 at 9:36 am
Stunned!!!!
I was so moved by your comments! That is the most mature, compassionate and Christlike attitude that many of us need to hear. And the hardest to actually do but if you can do that, knowing about your dad, than I will do it. It seems we love to have justice prevail and a wrong made right. But it made me realize that the family that is also suffering is the family of the perpetrator. The kneejerk reaction is to not associate with them because what would people think? Are we so worried(speaking to myself) what people will think if we hang with them? I’m hoping I’m making sense and not just spouting off.
I really just want to say I love you, Stunned and am grateful to know you personally!
August 14th, 2011 at 9:51 am
I joined this thread a bit late but want to comment on some of the earlier posts about Bill P. at Covenant Fellowship:
I was at both meetings when he stepped down -- the first one was years earlier and i forget the reasons (certainly one was pride, i mean, they all say that at such meetings, it must be some kind of requirement), anyway, that was when he stepped down from lead pastor. That was the day that CFC lost it’s best preacher they ever had -- yes, he actually preached! Instead of all this intellectual point one, point two, boring teaching BS sessions about what all the current writers, and the dead puritan ones, have to say… you know how between every sentence there is a passage from some book put up on the screen… never the bible, by the way…
Anyway, to answer one of your earlier questions, he was eventually brought back as “administrator,” and was also made a worship leader… I think many of us there never knew for sure he was considered a pastor… although he was clearly given some pastoral roles..
The 2nd time he stepped down (2002), and i remember this time more clearly, he said it was due to waywardness/ rebellion (forget how he put it) of his 2nd son… and how he presented it made it clear that it was his decision to disqualify himself, and Dave H. supported his decision and went on and on how humble Bill was…
I remember thinking then, that although he was saying it was his decision, that he was being forced… and now i hear about the letter CJ sent to all the 50 other churches about this… Guess i was probably right….
By the way, i never thought that a rebellious teenager should cause a good man like Bill to lose his “gifting” and his position…. He was and still is, in my opinion, one of the best pastors i have ever sat under…
I know him well, and love and respect him…. yes, someone pointed out he was “no boyscout” but i never experienced anything but love and grace from him… and i served on his worship team and he is soooo gifted in that area…
I would like to see him restored in that capacity, at least, if not again as a preaching pastor…
His son, Curtis, grew up, and from what i can see (we are friends on FB, though i never knew him well personally) is a fine young solid christian man….
AGAIN… why are good men like Bill dismissed because of a season of rebellion from a teenager???
Anyone have any thoughts about this? I know there is some scripture that supports this, at least i seem to remember this from when they taught the “are you called” class…. But now i am wondering…
Finally, given this fact, i wonder how many pastors live in fear that a son or daughter will disqualify them…. how this must cause serious harm in parenting the children to ensure this never happens -- maybe this is why we have all heard so many stories of 30 separate spanking sessions in a single hours time because a 3 year old won’t eat his or her peas…
I wonder how many pastors should be de-gifted right now, but they keep their children’s sins secret…..
and, of course, we all know that our children sin… as we do…
I think this is a BS reason to fire a pastor!
August 14th, 2011 at 9:51 am
alemap, you have moved me. Thank you. *warning for those who don’t like it when we get emotional* Big hugs.
You wrote, “The kneejerk reaction is to not associate with them because what would people think? Are we so worried(speaking to myself) what people will think if we hang with them?”
Here’s the cool thing. Some people are going to see that innocents (the families of the pedophiles) are loved. Some people are going to see love in action. Some people are going to see God in action, maybe for the first times in their life. We are called to associate with those that the rest of the world would turn their backs on- the homeless, those in prison, those hungry and hurting.
And we will finally become like the sheep who will some day say, “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Then people will praise His name.
Yep, that’s what some people will think.
The rest of them, I guess we really don’t need to worry what they will think.
August 14th, 2011 at 10:03 am
Stunned & alemap,
Our focus has always been directed on how the staff handled the cases at Fairfax. We extended forgiveness to both perps and they know this. Our family has demonstrated tangible acts of kindness towards one of the perps who is still in the area. Stunned, I appreciate your heart in helping others see the other side.
August 14th, 2011 at 10:14 am
20 Years, Bill was a good preacher. Unfortunately, he also preached legalism and manipulation.
You see, Bill actually requested I once use my “feminine ways” to manipulate my husband to agree with Bill on something. I had sat under Bill’s teaching since I was 19 years old- the first years of SGM and saw him through 15 years of ups and downs. I was horrified that he was, behind the scenes encouraging me to go against everything he ever taught from the pulpit and to sin against God in such a henious way. He is also the same man who, just days after meeting with him to discuss some concerns with the church, sent me the invitation to go find another church. (Saying I was stunned would have been an understatement.)
I did know his second son well. Great kid. (Best of the lot in my opinion.) His son “sinning” was ridiculous. As much as Bill did more damage to me than even what my father did to our family, I still thought it was tragic that this very good kid was put on the SGM altar and sacrificed for the excuse to get Bill out of there.
PS for anyone who doesn’t know- His “boy” was a legal adult when the incident happened. He was 19 years old. Like I said, I knew him well. Bill having to step down for that was a horrifically absurd situation. (Again, I am NO Bill Patton fan, much as he has amazing gifts both in preaching and worship leading. But no heart of love by an stretch. Maybe- and I hope this is true-God has grown a heart in him. That has yet to be seen. I’ll let you know if he ever contacts all those he has harmed to apologize.)
Oh, and when I say incident, they made it seem like it was because his son… and are you ready?…. kissed a girl… on more than one occasion. Yeah, it could have been more, but in 2002 they publically humiliated this young man and publically put the weight of the family’s loss of livelihood on his young shoulders because… can you believe it… he supposedly kissed a girl (same girl) more than once. I mean, what normal, healthy 19 year old would do such a horrendous thing? (And I tell you, this kid was more honest, more real and a heck of a whole lot more sweet and loving than most of that lot and for sure most of the kids of the other pastors. I don’t know what he is like now, but back then, I was a huge fan and like I said, knew him fairly well.)
Oh, and btw, the girl was a fairly good kid, too. How much shame still resides in their hearts due to this horrifically unbiblical, un-Godlike public stepping down? Have him step down for being cold (though charming when he wanted to), unloving, manipulative, and a whole host of things. But because he couldn’t stop his 19 (almost 20 year old) from kissing a girl? That was beyond bad, not to mention hypocritical for all we know of other leader’s families now, both in the same church and Bill’s top leader.
Stunned
August 14th, 2011 at 10:16 am
happymom, from everything I have read, you and your whole family have handled your entire situation in the most amazingly courageous ways. I wish everyone in your situation would have had the love and integrity you guys have had.
August 14th, 2011 at 10:42 am
Stunned
WOW! the way you just put all that out there has really impacted me… It is such a horror! So rediculous!!! almost criminal..
I had not thought of how curtis must have felt -- and the girl… I did forget that detail, although now i remember…. so he made out, at the age of 19, w/ a girl…. and Bill got fired for that and the whole family publicly shamed!
You are absolutely right! How horrific!
About Bill personally, i have heard such things, just never experienced them… I did not know he was in on the “inviting people to leave” thing -- i thought that was all later practice in CFC, done by others…
sorry to hear of this stuff and i do not doubt you in the least.. It must have been awful and frustrating to go through what you did….
I had my share of some bad stuff lumped onto my shoulders, just never by Bill -- who actually was the only leader there to ever initiate a relationship w/ me on his own, because i reminded him of himself in my struggles, and he wanted to help me… I guess that is why i am loyal to him..
Thanks for sharing, and i must admit, i am really wondering who you are…. we probably know each other…
August 14th, 2011 at 10:50 am
20 Years, I am genuinely very glad to hear that he reached out to you and loved you. That is a gift from God, used by Bill. Weird thing is, none of us are all good or all bad. (Granted, some of us have only 1% good, but I don’t think that is Bill whatsoever.) I am glad he showed you the good and loving parts of himself. You, well everyone, but you deserve it.
Didn’t you play music in the band?
August 14th, 2011 at 11:08 am
stunned,
yes, played in band most of the 20 years i was there.
August 14th, 2011 at 11:15 am
And were you in another SGM church for a season, too?
August 14th, 2011 at 11:20 am
bingo!
so u know who i am…
August 14th, 2011 at 11:22 am
That was so incredibly self righteous of me to out that person who kicked me and my family out of SGM. And it was incredibly self righteous of me to say some of the other things I have said in my last two posts. I have written and asked Kris to either edit certain things I said or remove the post altogether. However, someone other than 20 Years may have already read what I wrote, so I need to publically apologize to the certain person I outed and ask you all, if you have read who I said, when you think of him, to pray for him and his family and not hold any…well, I wish I could erase any negative knowledge someone may have for this person because of me.
Stunned
who actually let that post sit for a good long while before she hit “submit comment” and prayed about it first and all and STILL apparently didn’t let it sit long unpublished long enough
August 14th, 2011 at 11:30 am
:new I guess I don’t know where to start. I’ve been a member of an SGM church (one of the 1st ones) for 15 years. I felt loved, cared for and challenged at the same time where needed. I was a very active member involved in care group as well as worship team. I have had (and still do have) a great respect for my pastor(s) and truly loved those whom I increasingly knew as family since I am the only Christian in my own.
Much has changed….I was married last July to a man I knew for a little over a year and who did not attend a SGM church. We went through premarital counseling with my pastor (a man who I attended college with) and then after the wedding moved to a different state. My husband quickly became emotionally abusive and the relationship began to quickly degenerate. I left him not once but twice in a desperate attempt to get us into counseling. He would agree at first but then, after I returned to the household, he would cease counseling and the relationship continued to be more and more abusive to the point where I was beginning to fear for my physical safety. I left him for good in late Feb. After I left, it became quite ugly and was complete confirmation to me that leaving was the right thing to do.
Upon return to my SGM church those who I had the deepest relationships with told me that I was, “no longer welcome in their home” and that I must return because, “that is the only hell I would ever experience”. In addition, another stated that I brought shame to the name of Christ and she would have rather seen my belongings sold off at auction than help me move them out of a storage unit. There have been a few people who have generously reached out and gave sacrifically of themselves and for that I am eternally grateful.
I have not been permitted to be on worship team even though I am in no way in sin or under church discipline (according to my pastors). Their reasoning is that others in the body have issue with my return (since he wasn’t hitting me)and therefore it would make them stumble with seeing me on stage. I have never felt more alone, rejected and isolated in my life. Perhaps I am completely wrong…I don’t know.
I was initially thinking that my case was isolated. However, with all of the recent developments, I’m beginning to wonder if this is a result of a more systemic problem and really seeking the Lord if I should stay or perhaps seek another church home. I apologize for being off topic. I’m just trying to make some sense out of all this.
August 14th, 2011 at 11:46 am
Exclcer post#358 last thread, that was a great post. So much of what you said is obvious to outsiders and it is a ‘no brainer’ that these abuses are happening at SGM because the very system is faulty.
My heart breaks for you on the part about no expectations = no disappointments. I can totally relate. However, I have learned to educate myself more on areas that deserve caution rather than treat every potential positive outcome with lack of any expectation. I was so disappointed after losing two babies inutero that when I was carrying the next child I barely acknowledged her existence even to the point of having nothing ready for her until just before she was born. Anyway, I just tell you that because I know you don’t want to affect anyone else negatively and I just felt like I spent way too many years not living life to the fullest for the people counting on me because of my fear of disappointment which was rooted in childhood religious abuse.
August 14th, 2011 at 11:50 am
These people are sick. They are the ones that bring “shame to the name of Christ”. They need to be rebuked by the pastors & if the pastors won’t do it, they need to be exposed.
August 14th, 2011 at 11:53 am
Gadget,
Welcome!
Your story -- and others like it, including some that have not been shared on the site but were emailed to me privately -- are why SGM’s response to the Megan and Kerrin situation has made so many people angry.
Yes, it’s true that Kerrin quit a well-paying job that he was probably going to lose. And yes, it’s true that around the same time, Megan lost her dream home and had to deal with the idea that her husband was doing yoga and had expressed an interest in visiting a Universalist church. Kerrin also didn’t seem very motivated to try and save his marriage, shutting down communication because (he says) everything he said to his wife was then shared by her with her parents.
But ultimately, Megan has been wholeheartedly supported by SGM while Kerrin was vilified. Her whiny blog posts garnered comments from SGM friends who told her she was their hero. Hero for what? I guess it’s heroic in SGM to refuse to follow your husband’s leading and wishes…EXCEPT if his leading and wishes happen to lead one away from SGM and from one’s family of origin.
I should add, for the record, in case anyone is wondering, that if Megan’s scenario were taking place in the real world and not in SGM, I wouldn’t really blame her for not wanting to leave the country and drag my 5 kids away from my parents. I would probably be inclined to respond in the same way.
But within the context of SGM, Megan and Kerrin’s situation is a disgusting example of favoritism…of “some of us are more equal than others.” If you’re the daughter of SGM’s celebrity music maker, you’re NOT instructed to put up or shut up. Instead, you’re “cared for” and supported.
But if you’re an ordinary member and you leave someone who is actually abusive, rather than just a less-than-satisfying partner with newly differing ideas about church, you’re treated like a pariah.
To bring this back around to the topic at hand, I wonder when SGM members are going to stand up and walk away from a system that has one set of rules for leaders and another set of rules for those beneath the leaders? We see this in the way that CJ has been supported by the SGM board in his quest to leave the “happiest place on earth” so that he and Carolyn can be “better cared for” by a church completely outside the SGM system. Why this isn’t outraging everyone is beyond my comprehension.
How do you people live with this rank hypocrisy?
August 14th, 2011 at 12:01 pm
@ Gadget in #125…..Sounds to me like, just as you had to leave an abusive marriage, you also need to leave an abusive church group.
August 14th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
Patti -
Yes, I understand. I should have been more specific — I no longer base my expectations on emotions. Expectations for me are now based in an understanding of the “most likely outcome”, not the “one I would wish for the most”…….based on knowing that past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior, and if outcomes are better than expected -- then nice surprise.
Thanks for making that point. :goodpost
August 14th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
Kris said
To bring this back around to the topic at hand, I wonder when SGM members are going to stand up and walk away from a system that has one set of rules for leaders and another set of rules for those beneath the leaders? We see this in the way that CJ has been supported by the SGM board in his quest to leave the “happiest place on earth” so that he and Carolyn can be “better cared for” by a church completely outside the SGM system. Why this isn’t outraging everyone is beyond my comprehension.
How do you people live with this rank hypocrisy?
Kris, I am still at an SGM church, have been for 22 years now, to answer your question about why (at least one SGM members perspective) I/we have not walked away? First, I AM outraged at the hypocrisy -- the fact that CJ left CLC to avoid what he, or his system that he influenced/created, forced so many other pastors to endure is hypocrisy and it is outrageous. But again, every SGM church is handling these issues differently….I love many of the folks in my local church, I love our pastor, he is dealing with the SGM issues in an open and transparent way, I believe I am being led by the Lord to, thus far, stick it out and see what changes occur? I am open to being led by the lord to a new church, but thus far I do not feel led to do so….I am, however, being led by the Holy Spirit to give my tithes to others for a season (rather to my SGM church), but I am steadfastly praying for change and not yet willing to leave unless God directs me…Also I have experienced tremendous fruit and growth in my 22 years at an SGM church, have seen many come to the Lord, have been a part of some very exciting spirit led times -- although the “spirit led” aspect I must admit has slowly declined over the past 10 years….But YES I am outraged at the double standard and hypocrisy -- but to me, where to worhsip and walk out my Christian life is a huge decision, and I must hear directly from God. He was very clear in leading us out of CLC many years ago, and I am grateful, and I truly believe the sheep will hear the Shephards voice and that is what I desire…His guidance….
August 14th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
Gadget -- thanks for sharing your story. Youre not alone. A lot of “us” have felt at one time we were the “only ones” and left to feel like maybe something really was wrong with “us” because it seemed like we were alone in our pain or the way we were treated. But we aren’t alone by a loooong shot, and just know there are so many people here who totally understand how you feel!! :welcome
August 14th, 2011 at 12:15 pm
Gadget, oh my gosh. I don’t know where to start. Welcome.
As I started reading your post I thought, “That’s nice that this person had a good experience. I am glad she found a place that was good for her/him, especially since he/she didn’t have any other Christians in his/her family. I wish we had all had that but I am glad that at least, some did.”
Part way through the second paragraph my heart began to drop as I read about the abuse you endured. By the end of that paragraph I wanted to put my arms around you and praise you for the courage and wisdom it took to get yourself out of an unsafe place and recognize that that is not the kind of contract God wants you to keep (one where only one member of the contract keeps their promise).
Paragraph 3- my heart dropped all the way into my stomach. At least that’s what it feels like. I feel ill. Ill. Please, no one tell me I shouldn’t be surprised. I gasped in horror at that first line. I haven’t even gone back to finish the post. I will but right now, I feel too sick to keep reading.
Gadget, welcome. I wish all His people could surround you with His care and love and wisdom and understanding. “By wisdom a house is built, and through understanding it is established; through knowledge its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures.” Ps 24:3-4 God has given you wisdom. He is giving you greater understanding. As you grow in knowledge of what is happening around you and in this world, you will gain rare and beautiful treasures.
He is making a home for you, here on earth, though it does not look like the home you thought you would have a year ago. But it is better, for it’s foundation will be established in understanding. This is missing in large quantities at SGM. The women are taught to bury their heads in the sand and only see the good stuff of life, without acknowledging the need for knowledge of all things. “Wise as serpents and gentle as doves.”
You have been blessed to have your eyes open (though they were pried open, painfully and brutally with a crow bar) and now you have the priviledge to warn and comfort others. How many women in SGM went into nightmare marriages blinded because we had no way to discern what was right in front of our eyes.
This is what happens when we teach our children to be dependent upon us, rather than how to hear the Holy Spirit for themselves.
I will read more of your post later. For now I just had to give you some electronic hug.
Stunned
August 14th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
Radically Saved said, “I believe I am being led by the Lord…”
That is the best thing. To hear Him for yourself. Just wanted to give you some sisterly encouragement to keep it up. Is there anything He likes so much as to have His precious little ones coming to Him to hang out with Him? God, forgive those of us when we have sought others’ opinion above yours.
August 14th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Kris,
Thank you. I am aware of the Megan Kauflin situation and I have raised the point of duality with my pastor. He’s taken a more hands off approach since. I pray that reconciliation can occur with all parties involved.
August 14th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
exCLCer -- thank you. It helps to know you’re not alone.
August 14th, 2011 at 12:28 pm
Pampy said, “Sounds to me like, just as you had to leave an abusive marriage, you also need to leave an abusive church group.”
I have to agree, wholeheartedly, Gadget. I do NOT tell most people to leave SGM. (My best friend is still there.) But you have been abused by one man, and are being abused by a whole other group. Your pastors may be saying that you are not in sin, but by not letting you back on the worship team because others may sin is not YOUR PROBLEM. The pastors need to deal with this head on by getting up and giving a sermon specifically addressing those people’s problems and sin, not hiding you under a cloak of shame. They need to get up and get all exigessical on the peoples’…. errrr. back sides and TEACH them the truths in scripture instead of letting other people’s sin ruin YOU.
These men do not have your back. Please recognize that your abuse did not end when you left the man you married.
I did this so I hope you don’t mind me making this suggestioin: please, consider seeking professional counseling to help you figure out why you would even for a minute stick around a place that is abusive to you. It may help you avoid this kind of grief and suffering in the future.
Stunned
August 14th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
To state what most everyone who has been on the left foot of the SGM fellowship knows: When someone on the SGM board (once known as the apostolic team) feels it is time to go, they will find whatever sins, weaknesses or flaws to justify their actions (or conscience if they have one) to move you out. If it hadn’t been Bill’s son kissing a girl too many times or kissing her too long at one time, they would have found something else (perhaps he leaves the toilet seat up).
Part of their strategy is to isolate the one who needs to go. They will build a case against you through others to confirm their ‘dizernment’ and make sure the only input you receive is theirs.
I can only laugh when I read CJ’s blog about the better care and counsel he will get with Mark. I don’t disagree with him at all, he is absolutely correct. CJ’s worst nightmare would be for Shank to show up on his doorstep (except Shank doesn’t have the testicles to challenge CJ)
When I asked CJ and his team to release me and our church from PDI. His answer was no! While we were going to work through this together, :spin CJ demanded in our first conversation that I cut all communication with one of my closest friends (and my mentor) who was a pastor and part of another apostolic team for at least a year; and then he called my friend and requested that he not contact me for at least a year. And my only contact with PDI was Shank -- the rest is history.
As angry as I can be with myself that I submitted to these jokers, I have to commend CJ for doing what is best for he and his family. Why would he cut off all communication with Mark and the other reformed dogs and just hear from the pastors at CLC? He knows how it works — it would be his worst nightmare.
That being said, his decision is loaded with hypocrisy and cowardice but laced with wisdom (and self-preservation). Dave,CJ and the other SGM leaders, you a lot to answer to the Lord and the body of Christ as you men have sinned greatly against both. (oh no -- an accusation against elders without two or three witnesses)
And last -- Stunned said a heart full concerning the affects to the boy and girl whose serious sin against SGM was so great :scratch . I know for years my children felt weight and personal guilt of my leaving the pastorate as they were one of Shank’s major targets. The fact that only one of the three refuses to trust a spiritual leader is a miracle. (My family’s situation pales in comparison to those whose families were violated by the sex offenders and the lack and inappropriate pastoral care they received -- not even close)
August 14th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Kris: as a current, active member of CLC I am horrified at the double standards being walked out by CJ … me and my family have not left (yet), but as my name indicates it was only the beginning--we’ll see how this all progresses.
I DO feel that Josh Harris and the pastoral team is handling things well, as well as can be handled with so many years of hidden sin and cover-ups.
August 14th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Stunned -- Thank you. I am in the process of pursuing counseling and the Lord’s guidance as to where to go for it. I still have great respect for my pastors. They have met on at least 2 occassions with those who have taken the harsh actions as described above telling them that it is wrong to treat another like this and to say what they did. Little has happened since and little has changed.
August 14th, 2011 at 12:54 pm
@It’s just the beginning: :goodpost I too am a current member and agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, i have a feeling most people feel this way
August 14th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
for Gadget… welcome :spin :D
Anybody here ever read the Baxter Family Series by Karen Kingsbury and Gary Smalley? The couple Dayne Matthews and Katy Hart have kissing scenes written into them while they are still dating/courting and before marraige. If Dr. Gary Smalley has no problem with it why should SGM. Especially to the tune of firing the FATHER of an ADULT? I swear sometimes the nose is so far up in the air that somebody is either going to get a nosebleed or trip over something. Kissing a girl… sheesh, that’s barely first base. I wonder, did she cry foul ball? Was he a bad kisser? Maybe he needed more practice. SHEEEESH
August 14th, 2011 at 1:05 pm
20 years said:
“I think this is a BS reason to fire a pastor!”
Exactly right, it is BS and in light of current events with CJ, completely hypocritical. I don’t read that in my bible. That whole leadership team needs to go, period.
Stunned said:
“20 Years, Bill was a good preacher. Unfortunately, he also preached legalism and manipulation.”
I am a one trick pony and Stunned all I can say is I saw this at my SGM church as well. But my one “trick” is this, you can’t send someone to a home grown pastors “college”, throw out everything about reformed theology (including polity and confessions), then not expect problems. The arrogance and ignorance (I do not mean that in a slanderous way) of the men in leadership at SGM is appalling.
I have friends in SGM who are joyless because week after week all they get is didactic instruction, and exhortations to serve more.
Me? I left and am in a reformed church where week after week I get Christ and His finished work on the cross for my sins.
To Stunned, 20 years and all my dear brothers and sisters on this blog, may God bring you all healing and comfort. He is bringing what was hidden to the light, exposing SGM for what it is. Woe to those who hurt His dear sheep and teach as His the doctrines of men. May God have mercy on their souls.
August 14th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
@ Stunned (#134) :goodpost :clap :amen
August 14th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
:welcome Gadget! I’m so sorry. I am glad you got out when you did, rather than staying in, hoping it will get better. Those other people don’t get how demoralizing it is to be abused like that. Click on my name to read my story. You’re definitely NOT alone.
August 14th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Good Grief!!!! :x
Another example of SGM’s weird, whacked, creepy, freaky, icky, culture. :roll:
August 14th, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Al, Bill was never in the pastor’s college. I think you went to Covenant Fellowship. Bill Patton was the pastor who started the church back in 1984. Came up from CLC. Was supposedly best friends with CJ and trained by him. Though, the first time Bill was busted down from Senior Pastor to regular pastor and Dave Harvey started as senior pastor, all of a sudden CJ stopped staying at Bill’s house when he came to town. Suddenly he and Dave were buddy buddy and I seldom saw CJ hugging Bill like he did back when Bill was on stage with him. It really broke my heart for Bill and made me realize that these guys have no idea what the meaning of friendship really was. So sad.
Gadget, I am really glad to hear that your pastors spoke with others for not loving you and welcoming you back with open arms. Huzzah for them doing that.
August 14th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
@Stunned #141
Oops I guess I was on my rant about the PC again sorry. :D My PC rant was more leveled at the general pastoral community of SGM, it boggles my mind that they even saw a need for that. I guess I should have known that Bill was before the PC.
What you wrote about Bill’s treatment by Dave and CJ is just sickening. :barf: It is cruel and twisted. *sigh* That treatment is so deeply ingrained in the culture there. I experienced it firsthand. In one day, part of the “in” crowd, singled out for praise during a sermon, then one day realizing you were now out, as critical statements from the pulpit were undoubtedly leveled at me. . .
Stunned, what I do not understand is why someone like Bill didn’t just shake the dust off and leave? Why do so many people get beat up and stay?” It’s so hard for me to get my head around it. When they pulled that c%^p on me, I left. ..
I would tell you what church I was from but I still have friends inside who I hope will leave. :bang
August 14th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
Gadget,
Welcome and thank you for sharing your story. I am so sorry for the treatment you received from people you had thought of as friends and I’m glad that you are feeling your pastor’s support. I’ve reposted the following a couple of times as a welcome hug for those who are sharing their stories here for the first time. All of the references may not apply to you; but I hope it blesses you. This community can at times be a bit rough and tumble; but it is always real and accepting love is always a dominant theme
‘A very familiar story very freely paraphrased
….who is my neighbor?”
On their journey a family was attacked by fellow travelers they had trusted. They were reviled, persecuted, robbed, and left by the road. A pastor happened to be going down the road, and when he saw the family, he passed by on the other side, reviling them as he went. So too, a man called apostle, when he came to the place and saw them, passed by on the other side, stopping his ears to their moans. And thirdly, a Canis Major Reformer looked away and hurried by. But some bloggers, as they traveled on their own journeys, came where the family was; and when they saw them, they took pity on them. They went to them, heard their cries, dried their tears, and bandaged their wounds; pouring on oil and wine. Then they offered the family a sheltered place and cared for them. And they did not forget the family, but carried them in their hearts, speaking of them and praying for them often. Which of these do you think were neighbors to the family?
And the questioner replied, “The ones who had mercy on them.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” ‘
August 14th, 2011 at 1:57 pm
RE Gadget #125
After 30 and 28 years in CLC, respectively, my husband and I left to go to another church. One of the wonderful people we encountered at our new church is an incredibly gifted, loving, spirit-filled woman who leads a women’s class that I would not miss for anything. She also serves by leading international mission work. She is an inspiration to all and a walking example of God’s love. We have noted that, because she has been divorced twice, she would not have been allowed to do any of this type of service at CLC. She often shares how the Lord uses her failures and brokenness to help others. How much are the SGM churches missing out on because of the attitudes in Gadget’s post and others?