C.J. Mahaney has apparently been gettng lots of concerned inquiries about his leave of absence. He put up a post yesterday to answer his fans’ questions. He said,
Many of you have kindly inquired about my leave of absence and how I will be spending my time during this season. Before I give you an update, I want to take this moment to thank each of you who have expressed your encouragement and your support in prayer.
Some of you have asked where I will be attending church during my leave. That’s a good question, as it’s not uncommon for pastors to take a leave in a church that is away from their home congregations, and this seems wise. During my leave of absence I will be attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church where Mark Dever is the senior pastor. After seeking counsel about this decision, I’ve concluded that this is the best place for Carolyn and me to receive care and counsel, to examine my life and leadership, and to consider my future during this season of reflection. I want to learn all I can during this season, and I pray that this time will benefit not only me but Sovereign Grace as well.
Mark and I have a rich history of friendship. I met Mark thirteen years ago and since then we have become very close friends. Mark has been not only a unique friend but also a mentor to me. I want to continue to take advantage of our friendship and his mentoring as much as possible during this time, benefiting from Mark’s unique pastoral wisdom and his gift of leadership. I am deeply grateful for his kindness and this opportunity. Actually, other than my wife Carolyn and those with whom I have served closely in Sovereign Grace Ministries, no one has had more influence on my life in the last ten years than Mark.
This leave of absence from my role as president of SGM will allow me the time necessary to process the valuable feedback I have received (and continue to receive), and to devote time to consider how I can best serve Sovereign Grace Ministries in the future. I’m seeking and benefiting from the advice of the SGM board and a number of leaders in the broader church—men I admire and who have become my friends over the years. I am approaching this task without making any assumptions or presuming upon any particular outcome. By God’s grace and the kindness of these men I am not lacking wise counsel as I seek to discern the will of God about how I might most effectively serve when this leave of absence concludes.
So for those who have kindly asked, I hope this information is helpful. I deeply appreciate the encouragement and support of so many at this time. I simply do not know how to adequately express this, but I trust you feel my deep gratefulness for your support. And I would appreciate your prayers, given the importance of the decisions before me and their impact on Sovereign Grace Ministries, the pastors I respect the most and the people of our churches for whom I have the deepest affection.
Finally, many of you know that this spring Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, and I were invited to speak at a pastors conference in the Dominican Republic. We are currently in Santo Domingo and the conference (Por Su Causa 2011) begins tomorrow morning. Please pray for us and for this very strategic conference. Earlier, during this same trip Jeff and I, along with Al Pino, visited the pastors that Sovereign Grace Ministries are honored to serve in Cuba. I was deeply humbled by the men and women I met, all of whom display remarkable joy and trust in God. I believe we will be sharing more about this trip on the Plant & Build blog later. In the meantime, please pray for our friends in Cuba and the Dominican Republic and for our friend Al Pino, who represents Sovereign Grace in our work with these remarkable saints. Please pray that Christ would be glorified in their midst and the gospel would go forth in these countries.
With gratefulness,
C.J.
Despite this explanation, several readers have written to Guy and me to express their ongoing confusion over C.J’s decision to ditch his own denomination family of churches during his “season of reflection.” Some have also expressed curiosity over the idea that C.J. would so quickly take the stage again as a speaker, despite the fact that there’s barely been time for SGM’s panel of “indendent” investigators to have begun their task, let alone issue a verdict.
Brent Detwiler has published a post about this topic on his own blog. You can view that post here.
I put this up yesterday as a comment, but I will post it again here for those who have written to ask what my thoughts are:
For me, the issue has nothing to do with whether or not C.J. is under church discipline at CLC. (Actually, I’m pretty sure that he is not under discipline right now…but I could be wrong.) I have a real problem with the idea that C.J. would go to another church at this time, because he is choosing an action that would not have been available to any other SGM leader in a similar situation, if the leader wanted to remain in good standing with his SGM church.
It’s simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. has options that other SGM pastors would not have.
It’s also simply NOT RIGHT that C.J. can change his song and dance about the “happiest place on earth” without at least getting up in front of his congregation – like a man – and explaining his change of heart to the people!
If C.J. now doesn’t actually think that CLC is the “happiest place on earth,” the Source of all that anyone ever needs for his Christian life, but has instead changed his tune and thinks leaders in the midst of church conflicts ought to be able to ditch their commitments and go wherever they feel they will be “better served” – well, that’s OK, but for God’s sake, C.J. needs to retract all his original teachings about the importance of having a come-hell-or-high-water commitment to one’s specific local church. C.J. needs to stand on that stage at CLC and explain exactly how his beliefs have changed. Then he needs to apologize to everyone who was made to feel like they had no other option but to hang in there and take their SGM lumps and NOT be able to run off to some other non-SGM congregation to be “better served.”
It’s NOT that a change of belief is wrong. It’s that SGM always always always does these changes without proper explanations, retractions, and apologies to those who were hurt by the original false beliefs and teachings.
Thoughts?
August 15th, 2011 at 7:39 am
So I was at Worship God 11 (hate me all you want, I registered and paid way back in March), CJ’s name was only mentioned once in the main sessions, as best as I can remember. There seemed to be a greater focus on Jesus, the Gospel, and Philippians 2:3. Ken Boer also prayed for reconciliation “for all those we have hurt”. Or something along those lines.
My pastor (a 20 yr member of CLC, 5 years on a church plant now) also addressed the situation two weeks ago. He said he and the elders have been asking for clarification on SGM’s relationship with our church for two years with no substantive response…He didn’t seem to pleased with that. He did say that our local church’s financial statements were available to any members that requested them.
Anyhow, just thought I’d add my bit.
August 15th, 2011 at 7:41 am
Marion wrote in #163 “by seeking God myself and am enjoying the freedom of not being questioned and cautioned at every turn.”
Exactly. I believe that sgm fosters a system of fear and makes the people afraid of making decisions or discussing situations--instead of being free in Christ and walking by the Spirit.
And Aaron said they had to relearn and break off the legalism after 7 years at sgm so it certainly is a process. We didn’t learn to be legalistic and fearful over night and it will take a long time to relearn what God wants us to….I’m still relearning after all these years away.
Line upon line, precept upon precept…whether you are learning to be legalistic or learning not to be legalistic.
August 15th, 2011 at 7:50 am
Thanks Phoenix! I have the feeling there are many like myself that have followed this blog for years but have never commented.
August 15th, 2011 at 8:04 am
Tom said, “hate me all you want, I registered and paid way back in March.”
ha ha ha. My first laugh of the morning. Thank you! No worries, no hate here.
I’m glad to hear good things of your experience. Nothing better than to hear of people talking about Jesus!
It is also good news to hear of churches that are working to be more balanced. I wonder if each of the churches are a bit different. Would it be OK to tell us which church this is?
August 15th, 2011 at 8:40 am
Aaron ~
Amen in your last comment about both Bill and Arie! I would add the same about Alan and Joe too. They were “used.” That is exactly how I feel -- used. There are many stories behind that, but telling them would take more time and emotional energy than I have today.
August 15th, 2011 at 8:41 am
Stunned, thanks :)
It’s the Sovereign Grace Church of Frederick. About 35 minutes north of CLC. About 30% of the members are originally from CLC.
The senior pastor is Chris Silard.
I’ve noticed a definite change in the sermons in the past year. Less book references and more Bible references. I think he only had one quote or reference that Sunday that wasn’t in the Bible. Bibles have also been coming out more at CG and at our other fellowship times. We even had some teaching on relationships that only used the Bible. It’s been really great.
August 15th, 2011 at 8:54 am
Little OT, but Fried Fish excerpt from Joshua’s message was great. I really highly commend his entire message from yesterday. I think it would be good for both former SGMers and current SGMers. Probably be online soon.
Joshua is doing a fantastic job leading us through all this, and his last few sermons just show his heart and care for all those struggling with this situation and CLC/SGM’s past indiscretions. We also said goodbye to Brian and Mike (CJ’s SILs) yesterday. They both addressed the congregation, but besides them sharing their affection for us as a church, it was largely void of content and no further clarity on why they are leaving so early in the process.
August 15th, 2011 at 8:58 am
anSGMmember, did Mike or Brian say what they are moving on to? Either of them already have jobs lined up? (Not that you have to in any way, but I know this was a concern for many people when Brian and Mike stepped down.)
August 15th, 2011 at 9:04 am
I agree anSGMmember -- Josh’s message was very good yesterday.
This two-part series entitled ‘The Glue of Christian Unity’ / “What keeps Christians united even in disagreement?…” — extremely appropriate during this time as two of our pastors have resigned this week.
The message is already online as of yesterday afternoon:
http://www.covlife.org/resources/3955985-Christ_Above_All_and_in_All
You are correct, Brian and Mike’s words to the congregation--not on the audio--were largely void of content other than their love for the church members, appreciation for their time at CLC, etc. The stated reasons for disagreement and why they had to resign were communicated in the letter to all CLC members earlier last week … I believe that is on this blog, two or three posts ago.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:05 am
anSGMmember,
It is online already, it is very good. (Josh’s teaching)
August 15th, 2011 at 9:08 am
Stunned: no real details from Mike or Brian … they indicated they will be joining a different SGM church, but exactly where is unknown at this point as they both try to figure out if they will transition to another pastoral job right way, or go to seminary or some other training/schooling opportunity.
Both Mike and Brian are staying at CLC until early September, wrapping up their responsibilities, transitioning as smoothly as possible I suppose (what amazing men to have the conviction to have to resign, but doing it in such a way to serve CLC as much as possible too!)
August 15th, 2011 at 9:11 am
Hey Aaron,
Thanks for your clarification. As far as anonymity, I suspected you might question it -- for me (and I suspect others) it is more about not complicating relationships because at this point I think people are prone to over-reaction to disagreement (for example, CJ’s sons-in-law). I’ll find you on fb at some point soon.
As far as what you posted, I think the way you stated some things was more inflammatory than what you would have intended, and I think that that has been true of a number of comments at this blog. As far as comments in general here, I enjoy reading the comments to get a better perspective on people’s first-hand experiences but sometimes strong vocab and projected motives (2nd or 3rd hand stories) make it hard to separate good stuff from unhelpful stuff. I’m with Jim (sgmrefuge) in that if comments here aren’t careful, they can make it easy for the good things on these blogs to be ignored outright.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:11 am
Just to be clear: from what I heard, Mike’s and Brian’s next step is to either go into ministry somewhere or partake in additional training/schooling for ministry somewhere.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:20 am
Tom-#201
Perhaps your pastor should stop sending your local church’s “tithe” to SGM until they clearly answered his concerns. I’ll bet the response to that would be substantive and take less than two years.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:23 am
It’s just the beginning, you said, “they indicated they will be joining a different SGM church.”
Can I ask how they indicated this? I mean, would everyone who heard this say that they were giving this indication to the audience or could that just be something you read in to? I am not trying to doubt you, by any means, but would really like some clarity on this. I am guessing they did not come out right and say that beyond any shadow of a doubt that they were joining another SGM church, but can you share with us what they said to indicate they will be joining a different SGM church?
I am not trying to be cynical about what you said about them being amazing men, but giving their 2 or 3 week notice and working until that time is over is common practice in the business world. I don’t know if it’s necessarily praise worthy beyond what anyone else from Burger King to IBM does.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:28 am
Marion #205, I’m with ya. Exbritpat #211 I understand what you mean. I don’t mean to be inflammatory. I guess the further I get away from my SGM experience I think that I have less of a filter and feel less of a need for a filter. Often while attending Covfel I and many others flat out lied by being too gracious in various situations. Sometimes I found I did not speak the truth about what I saw because I knew it would not have been politically correct. I think many used terminology that was so carefully worded as to not offend that it actually changed what they should have said to something much more acceptable and far from what they actually felt about a given topic. You know, I should have let my yes be yes and my no be no. I understand your anonymity and I also understand by me commenting with my name and picture here I am risking offending friends I have that still attend Covfel. Having said that I feel it is important for them to know I am not afraid and actually quite free to comment here. Definately add me on FB as we are living in Canada and not so sure coffee will ever happen. :) Blessings!
August 15th, 2011 at 9:31 am
Just saw your next post, thank you so much for being willing to dialogue with me. I know it’s not always easy to spend time talking with someone may disagree with you on some points. (Though I think of probably the top 59 points in life, we are in total agreement about.)
If both of these men indicated that they are going to become part of another SGM church, and they said they going into ministry somewhere else, are they leading the people to believe that that ministry will be in SGM?
August 15th, 2011 at 9:33 am
QE2, excellent suggestion. I find it amazing that SGM hasn’t bothered giving this local church a straight answer in two years. What else did they have going on that was more important than the local churches (supposedly God’s highest priority)?
August 15th, 2011 at 9:39 am
Aaron, great post in #216 about being so careful which words you chose, you sometimes took the truth right out of what you were saying.
Just a comment about anonymity- not everyone keeps their anonymity out of fear. Some of us do because (as in my case) my story is not my story alone. I have children and an ex whose story is wrapped up in mine. At the moment, out of respect to them I do not go public with my name. Some day I might but I feel as if I owe them that respect right now. I know there are others in that situation.
Stunned
aka Stunned
August 15th, 2011 at 9:46 am
Tom, that makes me so happy to hear! (The teaching from the bible and the bibles being opened.) Thanks for sharing.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:48 am
Josh Harris is really walking in the Spirit all the way around during this time. Honesty and transparency, humility (wow, he should have written the book--definitely not CJ). I have to say that if I were anywhere near Gaithersburg, I would attend CLC now and wouldn’t have a couple of months ago. He is meriting trust. I love the way he spoke about the sil’s. I also love the way he spoke about us as saints. I love the way he hasn’t backed down on doing hard things.
CJ, on the other hand, has shown us exactly how seriously he is taking this “season of reflection” in his last update. Were he truly seeking out conviction of sin and hearing from God, he wouldn’t be ministering on behalf of SGM or anything else ANYWHERE. He is just waiting for the Harvey to get enough people to let him pass because he’s CJ. He is the most stiff-necked person I’ve ever known. He should write a book on True Stiff-neckedility.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:49 am
Gotcha Stunned aka Stunned. :)
August 15th, 2011 at 9:52 am
Stunned: concerning your point about 2 or 3 weeks notice … Mike and Brian are continuing to work at CLC, making the transition as smooth as possible over what looks like a 4 or 5 week timeframe--they did not just give two weeks notice.
[Timeline Details (from my understanding)]
From Josh’s message on Sunday, he indicated that he told his kids on Monday [August 8] that Mike and Brian were resigning … also Josh and the pastors tried for hours and hours over a couple/few(?) days to persuade Mike and Brian from not resigning--that must have been around the August 3-7 timeframe?
So without knowing the exact dates, it looks like Mike and Brian officially resigned (informed the CLC pastors) the week of August 1-5, possibly earlier because I do remember hearing there were vacation schedules among all of these pastors involved around this timeframe (late July, early August) … I think they may have officially communicated to the CLC pastors they were resigning the last week of July but weren’t able to meet to discuss it as a pastoral team until the first week in August?
The exact date their resignation was communicated is not known to me, but assuming they work through the first week of September at CLC [which they indicated Sunday morning] from what I gather they are working at least 5 weeks past when they ‘gave notice’.
Maybe that’s not praise worthy?
-
About your other question, they said [can't remember if it was just Mike or just Brian or both] from the pulpit yesterday that they are looking at other SGM churches to transition their families to. And just so there is no confusion, this is the exact quote from Tuesday’s BIG meeting, where Brian/Mike communicated their resignation in person to all of the care group members who are in Brian/Mike care groups:
{Question: where are you going?}
“The desire for us both is to be further trained and continue in pastoral ministry within Sovereign Grace.”
I think that’s as clear as it can be. Sorry for not just communicating that the first time.
August 15th, 2011 at 9:53 am
@Tom
Ask your pastor why they don’t just distribute the financials to every member like a normal church. The whole ‘available to any members that requested them’ makes it awkward for people to ask, especially given experiences people have had in asking for them in the past. If there is nothing to hide, then be up front and hand ‘em out.
Don’t hate you for attending Worship God ’11, but I question how they can possibly have a greater focus on the Gospel?
August 15th, 2011 at 9:56 am
Just the Beginning, thank you so much for taking all the time to answer my questions. I am not trying to be tedious so I truly appreciate you being patient with me. And I am so glad to hear of the great reports coming out of CLC!
August 15th, 2011 at 10:03 am
PS, you said, “I think that’s as clear as it can be. Sorry for not just communicating that the first time.”
You did a great job communicating, even the first time around. Sometimes I have found in the past that my SGM pastors were not always up front and upright in their communication, that is why I asked to have more understanding. Not that you were inadequate in the least.
So from this most people who heard it would believe that neither of these guys had any plans to minister anywhere else. Would you say this is correct? (Again, I don’t know if the word “desire” is meaning- yeah, this is what I want to do and am planning on doing” or “well, I’d like to but I already have other plans”
August 15th, 2011 at 10:05 am
Aaron, so glad you got my aka. I gave myself a little smile at it (I am a dork) and was hoping someone else would get it.)
August 15th, 2011 at 10:38 am
@Stunned, #226: from what I gather as of last Tuesday’s BIG meeting, Mike and Brian did not have plans in place yet as to where they might serve next in ministry….or if they were going to go to seminary or some other training for ministry next.
In other words, they were still looking at their options…trying to determine what their next steps were going to be.
August 15th, 2011 at 10:39 am
>Donald re:#195
I too did a long study of the blogs. You can certainly see a history develop. I did that and took out the names so as to avoid prejudices. I ignored the names of the pastors and the names of the churches. What emerged was a system that with some serious faults. There was a thread that ran through certain churches and certain pastors.
For instance one pastor was brought before the congregation twice in Fairfax church and then three times in Florida church. Pretty obvious this is a problem with pastor. But someone up top wants to keep him. I know of no other pastors that have been publicly admonished and still remained around.
Another church had over half a dozen pastors “degifted” in half a dozen years. Obviously this was an abuse of power from the higher ups. An example of what happens when Apostolic players wield their power indiscriminately.
I took out names and churches and just looked at issues, trying to ignore who was responsible and what the motives were. It was not a nice picure. Then, in the light of Brents documents, you can see the development of the power trips developing at the top and you see a dark picture developing when that power struggle is worked out in local churches.
When I went to my current sgm pastor with my findings he knew little about it. After his shock, he explained that after the magazine and celebrations were shut down he only spoke with other churches 1x per year at the pastor’s conference. And even then there was so much activity that he rarely had time to do more than take a coffee with an old friend, so he never got to discuss real issues about what was happening in the churches.
I took notes and worked my way through hours and pages of postings. I did it so I could understand and confront my pastors. Donald, if you are doing the same you could help us all if you published your study on web. When everyone knows what is happening, and the tinge of partiality or bitterness is gone, everyone will be able to see what is broken and demand a fix. This is something that needs the congregations to insist on transparency and things to be fixed. A good publication will be the best tool for us to use with our churches.
August 15th, 2011 at 10:49 am
there was an SGM staffer who started her own film company. I think she no longer works for SGM. it is interesting to note she just happens to be in Cuba and the Dominican Republic this week. wonder how much SGM pays her to go along?
August 15th, 2011 at 10:52 am
@Walking Wounded,
Good point. I honestly hadn’t considered that until the other day. They may have been handed out at the members’ meeting several months ago, but I wasn’t in attendance, so I do not know for sure. I intend on asking.
In reference to WG11, I don’t really know how to explain it. It seemed to be more God-centered (with the intent of glorifying) than any other conference or teaching out of SGM (aside from my local church) that I’ve heard.
Maybe it was just me. Maybe it wasn’t. After this conference, and the youth retreat I helped staff, I am more convicted than ever that I, “have lost my first love”.
Did SGM bring about this conviction? No. God did, through the Holy Spirit. SGM played only a minor role in this. I am confident that God would have convicted me in some other manner had I never entered an SGM church. Why? Because of the promises in 2nd Corinthians 3:18, “And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit” (NIV)
I guess I got off on a tangent.
August 15th, 2011 at 10:56 am
inthenickoftime, that sounds like an amazing bit of work you’ve done. Would you, also, want to share it with us? It may help many see better.
Also, I find that some churches are more healthy and others not so. Would you want to, and I totally understand if you wouldn’t want to do this, mind sharing which church you are in? I find comfort in hearing that some churches are not caught up in the messier… don’t even know how to describe it… the messier messes you are finding in some churches.
August 15th, 2011 at 10:58 am
Lee, are you saying right out that this film maker has been hired by SGM, CJ or someone else related to SGM to work? Or is this a guess?
August 15th, 2011 at 11:07 am
Tom, amen! Tangent away if it’s about God and regaining your first love!!!!!!!
August 15th, 2011 at 11:29 am
Stunned,
I would say that it is an “educated guess”. This person worked for SGM for years, wrote books, became an expert on being single, and started her own film company. On her Twitter feed she says she has been in Cuba and the Domincan Republic for the past week. She is shooting film. I am nearly positive she must be filming CJ and crew.
I wonder just how much SGM spends on these trips?
August 15th, 2011 at 11:44 am
I keep hearing many great things about what Josh is doing.
And I’m concerned that its about Josh. People are still looking to ONE guy for their next move.
In my next church after SGM, the ONLY thing I hear about the senior pastor is about how good his sermon was. He’s not running the show.
I think CLC members are still very much looking to their leader…their “pope.”
People, please don’t replace CJ with Josh. That’s not healthy.
August 15th, 2011 at 11:50 am
Sidney,
I noticed the same thing as well. I hope it doesn’t turn into that.
August 15th, 2011 at 11:50 am
(Don’t get me wrong. I love Josh and I believe he is doing good things. But, part of doing good things is going to be making it so that nobody looks to him.)
August 15th, 2011 at 12:00 pm
@Sidney: very good point. The other thing, and I’m really trying not to look at everything in a cynical way, is that his sermon was wonderful, thought-provoking, and challenging, but I couldn’t help but think that the apparently new “don’t keep other Christians at arm’s length just because they disagree with you” perspective is, once again, just in time to be applied to the Mahaney clan. I guess it will carry more weight once people start seeing it in action with just regular members, but I suppose talking about it is a good start.
August 15th, 2011 at 12:34 pm
@Sidney,
I think it may seem that way at the moment, and I think it may be more a level of sympathy more than idolization (given that Josh is, in many ways, left to clean up the mess that CJ has created)…just my 2 cents as a current CLCer ;)
August 15th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
but, then again, I’m not one who tends to keep pastors on a pedestal…so that could be part of it :wink:
August 15th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
I just finished listening to Josh’s sermon. Before I comment further I would clarity from the people here who have sat under his sermons since he became pastor of CLC. Is this sermon subject and way of presenting it new for Josh. Am I gathering here that that really good sermon is unique to CLC?
August 15th, 2011 at 12:45 pm
I did not word that last post correctly.
I mean I would like clarity. And I meant is that really good sermon unusual for Joshua or other SGM pastors to preach.
August 15th, 2011 at 1:09 pm
@Patti 242/243 -- I think you made your wish for clarity, quite clear :)
When I posted a small excerpt from Josh’s sermon from yesterday, it was because in his statements at that point (and elsewhere in his message), I got the sense that what he was saying, and promoting, while solidly Biblical, was in stark contrast to what I have come to understand as CLC business-as-usual. I didn’t mean to imply anything about the sincerity or passion with which he delivered the message. Was just pointing to the content and wondering if there is reason to be hopeful… Maybe you’re in the same boat, and others here with more CLC history under their belts than me can give a better idea whether Josh has traditionally toed the SGM line in his sermons.
August 15th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
@IntheNickoftime @#229. Yes, that’s what is occurring…exactly what you did carefully. Review of 1000s of posts to discern themes and patterns. There been no interest or design to publish anything. I suspect it would take a few years to digest and write up the materials. But, even an eight-week read of the documents, e.g. 16 hours/day/every day gives a reader the sense of it. Also, there is this pending investigation by Ambassadors of Reconciliation. Will that report be made public? Available for review? Will dozens and dozens of people be interviewed? With depositions and stenographers? Some film-maker could make a documentary with interviews. There are disturbing patterns and themes, no doubt.
————-
I’d add this. Years ago, I met a man from the U.S. State Department. He had two PhDs. One in pyschology and the other in sociology. He was hired because of that training. His job was to examine and write reports for the State Dept. on the leaders and governments in Third World countries that were known to be corrupt or oppressive. The State Dept. wanted the facts. He simplified his work this way. His formula, not mine. “Wide discretionary powers” + “No accountability” = “Corruption.” That was his explicit formual as he reviewed regimes that oppressed their people. Shining the light of day on the problems was the solution. Fiddle with the formula around the edges here and there, add a little there, subtract a little here, but the formula still worked.
August 15th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
@exCLCersmom: Did the church provide any financial help to you and your kids? According to your records, how much money did you receive in total from the church?
August 15th, 2011 at 2:46 pm
Sidney -- #236 -- :goodpost
People still in the koolaid may not even realize that this is happening.
As Scriptures say, Fix your eyes on Jesus!
August 15th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
Aaron —
My opinion about online anonymity — from bitter experience — is this:
If you want to be open about information online, you’d best protect your identity.
If you want to be open about your identity online, you’d best protect your information. (As in protecting your “wall” on FB.)
Simply because the Internet is easy to use doesn’t make it *safe* to use. Anything you say as your true identity will be Google-able forever. (No real newsflash there.) If people are sure that their humanity will never rear its ugly head and that they will never say a single regrettable or rash thing online that someone can find, then by all means, doff those Internet underthings and let it all hang out.
Personally, I like my underthings on, for various reasons, not the least of which is plain ol’ common sense. There have been accusations on this blog in the past that the anonymous people had nefarious or cloak and dagger reasons for choosing to be anonymous. Ridiculous. No one OWES anyone their full identity online.
And the consequences of the online Full Monty can be seriously no bueno.
August 15th, 2011 at 4:10 pm
did she just say full monty? ha
August 15th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
Until Josh is really willing to allow the secondary issues to be openly debated in his church, I don’t see how business as usual won’t continue. I believe he is trying as best he can within his own beliefs and damage control bounderies. If he were to change too much he stands a lot to lose.
I believe that my local church leaders and my friends and I from my church community live and operate close to what Josh’s 8/14/11 sermon dictates regarding fellowship with unity in spite of secondary issue strong disagreemants. But frankly I don’t see Josh lasting long among the SGM, CBMW, Gospel Coalition, SBC etc. if he really promotes that kind of secondary issue freedoms among the members. I would like to see just which secondary issues he thinks members can be free to discuss in unity and love without fear of church discipline. As I’ve said before, I just want honesty, people getting involved in any organization need to go in eyes wide open. Most people here know by now which secondary issue is the most important to me. Josh’s vagueness could lead someone to believe he is softening on that issue also, he actually threw one little sentence in all his equalizing of people groups that said Christ is even above gender. But that was it. He could quote all of Colossians over and over but certainly don’t quote Galatians addition to the Colossians letter with neither male not female in Christ. I certainly hope Josh does not agree with CJ’s belief that Paul did NOT think CBMW/CBE was a secondary issue to the gospel.
How many times do we actually walk out of a sermon and obey/test what we heard and agree with. I know I’m guilty. I think a great ‘walking out’ to Josh’s sermon would be for you members at CLC to start talking amongst yourselves on what your secondary beliefs/questions truly are. After a sermon like that no one should have to say what they believe with any fear. The only ones with fear are the ones like Josh whose job could be on the line. But it doesn’t sound like anyone should be shunned anymore. Test it, test your friends, be brave, maybe you’ve been sneaking onto more Arminian websites or maybe even you have looked up godswordtowomen.org or cbeinternational.org which several bloggers have posted here and you want to talk to each other about it.
Anyway, the sermon did SOUND good.