When I put up this blog less than two months ago (I think the site is just about seven weeks old now), I had NO IDEA that there was a whole hidden part of Sovereign Grace Ministries about which my husband and I had known nothing. All I thought I was doing was writing about our observations of what I’d termed SGM’s “cultural oddities.”
We hadn’t left our SG church because we’d “taken offense” to anything there. We had (and continue to have) much love and respect for our pastors. We just thought there ought to be some place online that explained how SG would seem to others like us – how SG might come across to someone who thought they were visiting just another Evangelical or Reformed church.
When we put up the site, we believed that SGM was just a “unique little denomination,” nothing more (and nothing less). We didn’t know of anything that we’d be able to point to and say, “This is not right.” We just had a lot of vague impressions and a sense that Sovereign Grace was not typical. And we thought that unwitting SGM visitors or “seekers” should perhaps have another resource out there to let them know this.
But then the comments and the emails began pouring in. And I have to say, my thoughts on just how well SGM actually practices the “orthodoxy” they claim to prize have been changing.
Here are just TWO of the MANY things that have been reported again and again in people’s stories:
-
SGM actively discourages (and some have said, “does not permit,” or even, “FORBIDS”) non-pastor-led small group Bible studies. Reasons given have been along the lines of, “Small group Bible studies will lead to doctrinal confusion,” or, “The people are not mature enough to engage in this activity.” EDITED TO NOTE: A STUDENT FROM SGM’S “PASTORS’ COLLEGE” HAS STATED THAT HIS CONGREGATION, AT LEAST, DOES ”ALLOW” SMALL-GROUP BIBLE STUDIES. YOU CAN SEE HIS ASSERTIONS IN THE “COMMENTS” SECTION, BEGINNING AT COMMENT #12. THERE MIGHT BE SOME CONFUSION, HOWEVER, AS TO HOW WE ARE DEFINING “SMALL GROUP BIBLE STUDIES.”
-
Many within in SGM leadership take it upon themselves to offer up binding advice on subjects like members’ decisions about whether or not to move and when and whom to marry.
There are perhaps a hundred other alarming trends that many, many folks have taken the time to report and discuss here, but the two listed above are, in my experience, absolutely outside the bounds of a healthy, normal, and – most importantly – BIBLICAL church experience.
I am growing increasingly alarmed that the people reading and writing here appear to be the only ones who are concerned about SGM’s aberrations. How is it possible that such Reformed luminaries like John MacArthur continue to be willing to share a platform with C.J. Mahaney, when Mahaney leads a group (in a manner that is, by all accounts, very active, involved, and “top-down”) that adheres to these unorthodox practices?
Why are Sovereign Grace Ministries and C.J. Mahaney only gaining MORE credibility, rather than being held accountable for these non-mainstream (and seemingly unscriptural) practices?
I’m baffled. Does anybody else out there have an answer?
I'm verwy verwy sad, RT. We can start our own crew, how bout it? 
(and I can be stone cold...hehehe) 
January 12th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Steve,
Checked my motives, read your blog article, liked it.
: )
I can attest that as an “older” single, the courtship model wouldn’t fit for me –and I’m not sorry about that…
January 12th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Joey,
It was a pleasure having you. Truly. Your comments were in no way abrasive or distracting. You were just telling how things are as you see them…just the way others on the site have told their stories.
I’d like to emphasize (per what you’ve said) that I believe there is a BIG variation among Sovereign Grace churches as to how some of their unique practices play out. A lot of the differences have to do with the pastors’ different styles and gifts, as well as the size of the church. Obviously a larger church will play host to greater diversity than a smaller church.
Also, I think within some churches, for whatever reason, there is a greater sense of pressure on leadership (either external or internal pressure, I’m not sure) to implement whatever “comes down from on high.”
I can accept – happily – that your church does not exhibit some of the pitfalls of courtship that I saw.
I guess the problems that people have spoken to arise when these things are elevated to “doctrine” status…which can happen even (or especially) when people are utterly certain that the practices aren’t being unduly emphasized.
Anyway, again, thanks for your kind tone. Feel free to post anytime. :-)
January 12th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Joey –
Secondly, if me or Jesse seem disinclined to believe anything that would put a SGM pastor in a bad light…well…we are disinclined. And we aren’t going to apologize for that. I won’t because as a 22 year old with a heart naturally inclined towards wickedness it absolutely amazes me when I see men who have devoted their entire lives to the mostly thankless task of serving the church.
Around January of 2000, 19 men agreed to live in a country they despised to set in motion a plan that if successful would result in their deaths and if unsuccessful they might very well face worse. For 18 months they lived without any support structure, no family, no religious community, no friends while they had to study hard. When the day came they had to put absolute faith in people they never met and the only reward they saw was being burned alive. 18 months of isolation with the knowledge the best they could hope for was a quick death, that’s a level of discipline, sacrifice and courage, that dwarfs the pastors you speak about yet I suspect you consider their project to be in now way vindicated by their dedication. Lots of people, including very good people make tremendous sacrifices for terrible causes.
And that’s the point being made. The problems with SGM (except perhaps at the top) aren’t bad men but a system and teachings that cause good men and woman to do bad things.
Sorry I’m defending SGM again, its a reflex and I know its not what this blog is about….
Feel free to defend SGM or patriarchy on my blog. I have yet to see anyone address the points regarding patriarchy I’ve been raising for months, or more recently the structure of SGM’s discipline. My blog makes no claim to being an emotionally supportive environment for anyone. You can blast away to your heart’s content, just be ready to defend your points with facts and analysis.
If you or your brother have truth on your side let’s see it. I’ve been waiting to hear anyone address the issues. What I’ve seen here is that the anti-SGM crowd cites specifics while the pro-SGM crowd keeps retreating the generalities and then flees.
January 12th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
CD-Host,
Once again, excellent analysis.
L
January 12th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
CD-Host,
I agree with your observation about specifics. But since those of us raising concerns about SGM aren’t always doing so with specifics, I am perfectly content with Joey’s observations, too. It’s good for people to hear both sides of this thing.
Although…I actually think there are more than “two” sides…I think there are a multiple of “sides,” depending on what one’s own background and lifestyle specifics and degree of Christian education might be…as well as which SGM church one finds oneself in.
I’m glad that Joey brought his observations of the “side” he has experienced. His experience is just as valid as mine. It may not address the specifics of the other issues raised here, but nonetheless it’s still good to hear.
January 12th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Kris –
That was in the paragraph that was a challenge to debate on my blog. I address specifics. I wouldn’t dare to set the rules for people on your blog. I’m tired of hearing of this emotional language that leaders (including professional leaders and people receiving professional training) can’t defend a single doctrine of theirs because they might accidentally hurt someone’s feelings if they did. So I offered Joey and Jessie and place where they can feel free to hurt feelings as long as they having truthful to say.
To pick a counter example, Mike Lawyer from CREC (a pro patriarchy leader mind you) gave a full interview where he answered I asked including follow ups on the record and in detail. I should add he found the interview process so accurate he quoted the whole thing on his blog. Dennis McCallum of Xenos did the same thing. Real leaders of legitimate organizations are proud of their doctrines and willing to answer and address questions about them.
They don’t ask why you don’t you do something more edifying then address their distinctives and tell stories about how their mother would be offended by comments made by people who disagree with their doctrines.
If I’m out of line I’ll back down. But frankly I don’t think I heard any observations. For example on your question regarding courtship I would have expected an answer like this (totally made up numbers):
In the US never married females ages 18-30 marry at a rate of 8% per year. In SGM they marry at a rate of 14% per year. The net effect is that while in the population at large, 1/2 of woman have never married by 25 but in SGM its only a 1/3rd. So the argument show the opposite regarding spinsters
What you got instead was a non answer:
It is hard to read comments about homeschooling and courtship making folks ill. Or me enjoying SGM because its patriarchal. Do you realize how demeaning that is to my mom, and the many women like her who have had the courage to ignore our societies degrading of their womanhood by giving their lives for their husband and children? (Not that all women who don’t homeschool don’t love their kids and husbands ) Or how odd it would be for a woman who has been misused in the dating scene and come to a church where a young man treated her with honor and respect courtship calls for to read about courtship making a woman ill?
If I’m out of line I’ll stop. But frankly I think the SGM guys are blowing smoke.
Is that fair or am I being too harsh?
January 12th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
CD-Host,
I think, especially given your somewhat “outsider” status (that you talked about last night), you are in NO WAY out of line. I have no problem with the way that you cut to the heart of these matters. You’ve obviously got a highly analytical mind, and we all appreciate that. :-)
Why I don’t take exception with Joey’s observations, however, is because Joey has never set himself up as an authority within Sovereign Grace Ministries. Although it’s my understanding that his dad is a longtime influential pastor within SGM, I don’t believe that Joey is responding here in any other capacity than a “satisfied SGM customer,” if that makes sense.
It’s sort of like if I were to put up a website blasting McDonald’s food. If a manager’s son were to come on my site and express his opinions about the food, I wouldn’t have the same expectations of him to provide hard data and real answers as I would have for somebody like McDonald’s CEO.
It’s just as valid for happy SGM-ers to explain why they’re happy as it is for disenchanted ex-SGM-ers to tell their stories. As long as they’re not coming on here and attempting to speak from some position of authority. Then I’d expect something more.
January 12th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Joey,
Hello! And welcome to the site! I knew as soon as I saw your name who you were. I will always remember you as the kid (now young man) who nailed a 1300 on the SAT, securing a full-ride Fl scholarship. (Your mother was so proud!
) And I’ve used you as an example to inspire my daughter who’s preparing for the SAT even now as we “speak.” 
First, I just want to thank you for your graciousness in your post. I ESPECIALLY appreciated these words:
“First, I’m sorry so many of you had problems with SGM. I don’t know your stories, or whose at fault…but either way I’m sorry, because many of you have obviously not had my experience, which I wish you did and hopefully you will at whatever local body you are at now.”
Bravo. Very disarming. I immediately thought of Pr. 15:1: “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”
And let me echo a point Kris has made on multiple occasions: SGM works for many people. By saying that I’m not giving a blanket endorsement of some of all of the doctrines and methodologies Sovereign Grace espouses – just a recognition that when some people do a cost-benefit analysis of the ministy, they can genuinely conclude that the positives outweigh the negatives. I know that was the case for me for years, even though I maintained serious misgivings with the direction the ministry was moving in.
But if ever there were a “group” or “category” of people SGM would work best for, it would be those who grew up with it their whole lives. It’s all you’ve known. Most of your significant relationships have been tethered to the church; your parents have served faithfully in the church as long as you’ve been around (I think); you’ve been homeschooled and largely sheltered from interacting with people from all different backgrounds; you’ve grown up with the lingo and only know how to interpret life through that lens (thus, the wickedness comment … again, not a slam, just an observation).
What I’m saying is you’re in that group Sovereign Grace will probably ALWAYS work for. And, having grown up in a wonderful Christian home with one of the most loving mothers I’ve ever met (she excels in showering her children with love!), you’re not going into the ministry with the deep scars and “baggage” of those of us who DIDN’T grow up in the Clever home (and I don’t mean that as a barb in any way either).
For someone coming in who wouldn’t ever have to worry about a movie most unexpectedly causing a rush of flashbacks that are so intense and bewildering, you fear that you’re going to have a nervous breakdown (AND you fear telling anyone about it for fear of being judged as having a “victim mentality” – an SGM classic), SGM would probably be pretty harmless. Or if you’ve grown up surrounded by babies, started babysitting at 12, and could change a diaper while talking on a cell phone and drinking a latte, an SGM church will probably be the church of your dreams.
But if you’re a woman coming into SGM who has never even held a baby and learned how to change a diaper by reading the directions on the back of the diaper package and practicing on a teddy bear weeks before delivering your first child (based on a true story – mine!) … SGM can be very intimidating b/c everyone else around you “seems” to line up so much more NATURALLY with the ideal woman who’s portrayed in all of their ideologies. It’s isolating. And you learn that your options are to kick your learning process into the far-left lane before someone “discovers” you’re completely out of your league or be left behind by women who may be well meaning but seem to be perpetually engaged in a competition to see who’s the most ideal Titus 2 woman to those they’re seeking to impress (usually pastors’ wives and upper echelon leaders’ wives). .
Or try to imagine this scenario: You’re in a planning meeting for children’s ministry, and the pastor announces that they’re going to add a question to the CM application form that will ask potential servers if they were sexually abused as a child. Of course, he says, the question will be optional, but you see right through that one. Obviously, anyone who has never been abused would have no qualms answering the question, so not answering the question is a dead giveaway (which was the case for me ultimately … and yes I was approached by that pastor about it later).
Anyway, here you are, trying to hide your immediate flushed appearance and trembling hands as the paralyzing fear of discovery washes over you. You listen as everyone else on the team agrees heartily with the pastor on this decision and its unassailable wisdom. One even says that it’s a really good policy because “they say” that “the majority of people who have been sexually abused go on to abuse other children.”
That grossly inaccurate statistic is more than you can bear, so you speak up and try to calmly correct the woman, educating those in the meeting that the statistic actually states that “OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ABUSE CHILDREN, the majority of them were sexually abused.” And you explain that even that statistic is suspect since these abusers are in jail when asked if they were abused and have every motivation to lie, in hopes of being granted leniency b/c of “mitigating factors.” In any case, there’s a big diff, and your big mouth just won’t let this go unaddressed. But then you fear that the quavering in your voice might have inadvertently “outed” you.
Can you see that for someone coming into SGM with THIS kind of background would understandably have a much more difficult time assimilating, even if she looks and acts with the winsomeness of someone who too grew up in the Clever home in the berbs of Pleasantown, USA?
My point is the more squeaky clean your background, the more you’ve been surrounded by SAFE authority figures in those critical formative years, the easier time you’re going to have chewing the meat and not choking on the bones. And not only that, serving in a church alongside your family not only affords you greater protection at times (since people might feel more inclined to to tread a little lighter w/ a pastor’s kid), if someone DOES say/do something to you that’s totally off the wall, you have the safety net of being able to go to your family and “detox” without excessive fear and internal wrangling. And you don’t ever have to worry about being rejected by your family b/c there’s a security there. And you probably got the worst of your questioning and fits of rebellion out of your system in your teens (if you’re the “average” kid) … and your parents were ready and braced for it b/c of having entered that swirling vortex three times before.
So I guess what I’m trying to say here (to make a short story long) is SGM is ideal for you. The sad thing to me was that the people I knew who DIDN’T come from that kind of wholesome background, in general, had the same expectations held over them as those who did. And they (we) had to suffer a little more in silence, fearful that we would be discovered as being “different” from everyone else. I don’t mean that in a self-pitying way … even though I understand that SGM sees most (if not all) dealing with the past as being rooted in self-pity and with the motive of “making excuses for sin.”
But I pretty much think that the true gospel should hold just as much hope and COMFORT for those who came to saving grace from a cesspool (either primarily created by themselves or others or a combination of both) as the one who came from relatively “normal,” loving homes. If it doesn’t, the gospel we’re preaching needs to be examined very carefully.
And if SGM really wants to evaluate the effectiveness of the gospel they’re preaching, let them do an anonymous survey that asks their members about how effective their message of the cross is. Ask them if they had a really serious struggle with something from the past (or present) how comfortable they would feel discussing it with a pastor. Ask them if they wish they could get outside counseling from a trusted Christian counselor – either for themselves or a loved one. Ask them if THEY think the full message of the cross is being presented from the pulpit.
Of course, I seriously doubt they would ever pursue an opportunity like this, even though services like Survey Monkey would make it possible to do in a matter of minutes. And why? Fear. Fear that they might open Pandora’s Box (as leadership feared with me, when I couldn’t just embrace the “God sovereignly ordained everything that happened to you and it was still better than you deserved” panacea). And fear that they might find out that, if people were granted the opportunity to express their totally honest opinion about how effective their gospel is – without any fear of reprisal – they might have a real crisis on their hands. But I would predict that they would never recognize it as fear and would most likely bristle that Paul wouldn’t have ever done an online survey with his churches … But then again, Paul presented a much more balanced gospel where the resurrection power was such a given, he raised a man from the dead in one of his services after he fell out of a window asleep and THEN WENT BACK TO PREACHING! I think that story is, hands down, one of the most hysterical stories in the Bible! But it demonstrates that he was exporting the whole package.
I can also say, Joey, that I’m GLAD Sovereign Grace works for you! And I’m so happy that God was merciful to you to allow you the amazing privilege of growing up in a Christian home where you were loved for who you are. And it certainly stands to reason that your cost-benefit analysis would lean toward SGM over any other alternative.
May God bless you richly, Joey, as you carry the torch you’ve been handed to the next generation! And, again, thank you for stopping by!
January 12th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Lynn said:
“Checked my motives, read your blog article, liked it.
: )
I can attest that as an “older” single, the courtship model wouldn’t fit for me –and I’m not sorry about that…”
Lynn
“check your motives” That certainly was the lingo when I was around CLC. Whenever you wanted to get to know a single woman better that on pastor repeatedly would say: “check your motives.” Brings back memories.
You aren’t sorry? Shame on you. ;-)
Thanks for the compliment. I try to do a balanced analysis of things on my blog rather than just discounting one approach or the other. In one of my blogs there I quote a respected Christian counselor who thinks not dating is “harmful” for most single Christians. It is nice when see other writing that say they other side or offer a more balanced approach for singles.
January 12th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Steve,
I was being a little bit cheeky with the courting, but I’m guessing past a certain age and certain life experiences, it probably doesn’t work.
Speaking of age, has anyone commented on the median age of SG attendees?
L
January 13th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I’ve been doing some quick reading because I have been busy since yesterday, but wanted to say “Welcome” to Joey and Outsider!!
January 17th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
“binding advice” on “whom to marry”??
Are you saying what I think you’re saying?
Is this a theory or a charge with specifics?
February 14th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I was lucky to come out of Sovereign Grace alive.
February 14th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Hi, LilyHill…and welcome to the site. :-)
If you’d ever care to share your story, I know a lot of people would love to hear it.
February 14th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
Hi Lily!
I recognize your name from somewhere….just not sure where!
Welcome!
February 15th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
My head is spinning, just found this blog and am so discouraged. Long story short, we attended a SGM church for a few years about 9 years ago. We left because of the realization of the things being talked about here. However, we have found the situation even worse in most other evangelical churches in our area…the VAST majority are going Emergent or Purpose Driven, which we find far more heretical than the legalism we encountered at SG. One of our problems with SG is that we are not Calvinists (sorry it appears most here are) and it was being hammered on weekly back then. We learned what Reformed Theology was through SG, studied it intensely for a couple years and decided that neither Calvinism nor Armenianism truly reflect pure biblical teaching. (don’t want to debate our conclusions, just telling that as part of our experience)
We finally found a church to love about 5 years ago, solid pastor, biblical teaching, passionate worship. Due to valid health and various personal reasons the pastor resigned suddenly last spring. Our church was ‘merged’ with another from the same denom. Problem; The new pastor was absolutely sold on being all things to the unchurched, and preaching cotton candy, self help, psycho babble sermons with a couple verses on top to make it all ‘Christian’. We were elders, but eventually left, broken hearted. We’ve been searching for a new church for months, with little positive result. One we’ve found biblically faithful seems to have an aversion to new folks coming in and changing the family dynamic. So if it’s not ‘doctrine’ it’s unChrisitianly Christians. What to do?
We still know some folks in our old SG church and were thinking of visiting, since now we are told they preach expository sermons, verse by verse. We were hoping that perhaps SG had swung from it’s extreme positions to being more solid, less legalistic. (we used to joke that all the wives seemed like ‘Stepford women’) Now this blog. I’m devastated, have no idea where we can look to find a somewhat balanced biblical church, in our area. We are in agreement with SG on the continuationist position toward the Charismatic gifts.
I guess I’m glad this blog exists, although you’ve shattered my hopes that we might have returned to our old SG church and found a matured balanced leadership and Church. We truly loved some aspects of the ministry and have not found anything else in Christendom that excelled in those areas….but the legalism and lack of full biblicality is not worth it, I fear.
.
February 15th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Kate,
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I’m sorry that you’ve had to go through so much in your church life. I can understand how difficult it must have been for you.
Just for the record, many people have stated in many places on this blog that not all Sovereign Grace churches are the same. It’s possible that the one near you is mostly free from the tendencies people have discussed. I wrote this in an old comments section to someone who was concerned about a friend who had gotten involved with SGM…I think it’s worth posting here again:
February 16th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Hi Kate,
First, you can join Kris and me as staunch Cal-minians. That was the conclusion I came to after a lonnnng study on the topic that included reading the Reformed Theology book stop from cover to cover and then through the Bible in a year, writing down scriptures that seemed more Calvinist on one side and those more Arminian on the other. I so badly wanted to join a “camp” but just couldn’t by the end. So you’re in good company on that front … well, that is if you consider Kris and me good company. The jury’s still out on that.
I’m sorry your family has had such a difficult time finding a biblically balanced church. Although those of us here on the blog fall along the continuum of how strongly we feel Sovereign Grace Ministries is in error and should be eschewed, I personally feel that you could take the concerns you’ve read here that give you the most concern and go talk to the Sovereign Grace pastor about them. For all we know, these pastors could be addressing the issues presented here behind the scenes.
Also, just one more thing to keep in mind is that a blog like this is most likely going to draw people who have had more negative experiences. So those of us here aren’t necessarily a representative sample of everyone in Sovereign Grace, nor are our experiences.
I don’t want to sound irresolute here. My experiences with Sovereign Grace were poignantly abusive and cost my family dearly. However, I was also party to those experiences. I didn’t know how to draw appropriate boundaries in the context of the church and church authority. If I had known then what I know now, I would have been able to be [what my counselor always referred to as] “firm but friendly.” Ironically enough, if I would have just gone and gotten the help I needed (same for my marriage), I could have possibly had a largely positive experience where I could chew the mean and spit out the bones (instead of choking on them). If I seem elusive, you can read my story in the Your Questions and Concerns thread (post 159).
I just want to make sure I’m motivating people by grace. Ultimately, only you and your husband can choose what the most important elements your church experience needs to include. I would encourage you to consider writing out those that top your list and evaluate, in light of your top priorities, if your old Sovereign Grace church is a possibility.
I do know that there is one person who pops up here from time to time, Desiring Discernment, who was in a sorta similar situation. She came to the blog in search of discernment, at first sorta reacted to some of the things she read, experienced some panic, but then decided with her husband that they would just go and talk to the pastor.
So she posts here and has read a lot. But — at this point — they feel faith to be able to stay in the Sovereign Grace church they recently found. They’re armed (bad word but you know what I mean) with knowledge, which is always a good thing, and they’re going in w/ eyes wide open. They know what to sort of stayed guarded against, which will hopefully enable them to enjoy all of the wonderful things they’re experiencing at their SGM church w/o allowing the less desirable methodologies/doctrines to encroach too much.
Hope this helps. Deep cleansing breaths. I would encourage you to allow sufficient time to let all of this percolate for a while before making any decisions.
February 16th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Kate
I would also like to welcome you Kate.
I am also not a Calvinist and also like the term Calminian which represents a mid spectrum belief.
I am glad that you studied the Bible to see what you felt it said about election etc. I would encourage everyone to study the Bible on this including reading books promoting both sides to determine what you think the Scriptures are saying on this.
My experience with Sovereign Grace including reading there recently publication on “election” is that they don’t ‘t typically give an exegesis from Scripture on the reasons to believe what the Bible in Calvinism or as they name themselves “sovereign grace.” This belief says one is elected to salvation (and consequently others are selected for damnation). They pretty much state that this is their belief and expect you to believe it without doing much to support it from Scriptures.
February 16th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Hi Katie,
“First, you can join Kris and me as staunch Cal-minians. ” said by SGMCas!
“I am also not a Calvinist and also like the term Calminian which represents a mid spectrum belief” said Steve.
Well, me too!!! Welcome to the blog, and I look forward to your sharing with us your heart journey!
February 16th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Opppss! I meant Kate!
February 16th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
See … There ya go, Kate. Looks like you’re in even better company than I thought. ;)
February 17th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Kris, SGM Cas, steve240 and freedathink,
Forgive me for addressing you all together. Thank you all for the kind welcome and wise words. I have lots of memories surfacing after reading more through the blog today.
I love the Cal-minian comments. ;o) steve, your suggestion is precisely how we embarked on the topic. We read pro-Calvinist papers and books, pro-Arminian, then anti postions and scripture thoroughly before feeling confirmed in our understanding of the Holy Spirit’s teaching on salvation via the Word of God.
I will probably have more to share in the days ahead, when I have time and can weigh the value of what I’d like to share and make sure it’s factual not just emotional, and most of all that it’s God honoring. It will likely appear in a newer thread when/if I do.
God Bless,
Kate
February 17th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Kate:
Kate
Thanks for the response and I am glad you did what you did and studied the issue. I thought from reading your post that you had done this kind of independent study.
My post was encouraging others that went through similar experiences in Sovereign Grace Ministries and had this teaching imposed on them. As I said before, my experience has been that SG teaches Calvinism as the correct doctrine without giving much Scriptural backing. When someone does this, I am skeptical of what they seem to think is the truth. Usually when one doesn’t back up something like this with Scripture means that it is debatable or perhaps verses don’t exist to back up this claim.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I’m not a calvinist either and my pdi/sgm church wasn’t either until the last few years. We were “nondenominational”…least that’s what it always said in our church info and on the website.
February 22nd, 2008 at 8:21 am
Out of my two and a half years experience in an SGM church and three and a half years close relationship with the pastor there (a year of good friendship betore I left the pastoral ministry to move my family to the church), it has become clear that SGM is merely a young, fledgling denomination. It is only twenty-five years old, for goodness sake! But it is growing by leaps and bounds.
Every denomination has problems. I grew up SBC and they’ve been around long enough to see most of the skeletons in the closet. But what makes a denomination humble, as far as something abstract like a movement can possibly be…what makes it humble is its willingness to adapt and change when it sees what is more biblical and beautiful. Reformed theology, for example, is one of the most lovely components of theology because of its view of God – trascendent and imminent, and because of its view of grace – superabounding, without limits, undeserved, and oh so welcomed. SGM’s move toward this is out of an earnest desire to see God high and lifted up on His throne, seated above all earthly powers, so full of grace which He freely extends to all who will come to Him.
Then there’s biblical counseling. There is no doubt that much of psychology and psychiatry is extremely helpful to us. But at best it does not help the soul see what God enables it to see in His Word. Psychology and psychiatry help us see our soul in black and white, and the Bible helps us see it in living color. SGM’s move toward this area is out of an earnest desire to lift up the sufficiency of God’s word in all things.
Then there’s biblical manhood and womanhood. Every Christian is too aware of the dangers they encounter everyday in our culture which seeks to rob men of their biblical responsibilities as men, and rob women of the beauty of biblical femininity as women. SGM’s move toward biblical manhood and womanhood is out of an earnest desire to see God glorified in the roles and responsibilities with which He created each gender.
These are just three examples of how this movement has, out of seeming humility, attempted to align itself with teachings and mooorings that are more and more biblical in nature. This is a wonderful thing!
But there are problems within, just as within every denomination and movement. We left because of problems surrounding a misunderstanding of pastoral authority and how that is applied to areas like calling to ministry, church planting, schooling choice, ministry methdologies, etc. I truly believe that the problems we were experiencing are true of so many other SGM churches, as is evidenced in this blog. We experienced God’s good grace week after week in our care group and with godly friends. But alongside these experiences were frustrating, confusing, bewildering, and angering experiences because of my pastor’s refusal to be influenced by anyone other than his apostolic leader and those he felt comfortable drawing into his inner circle. I have truly learned what level of friendship is now present even after three and a half years together. There is no more contact at all from him or from any other family in the church to whom we felt so close, except for one. We are in emotional and spiritual pain right now.
All of this aside, the key is to test all things, as 1 Thessalonians 5 teaches. Hold on to the good and get rid of the bad. My family, and I know so many others on this blog have experienced good and great and mighty things by the hand of God within the SGM churches to which they belonged. It is not honest to argue the bad at the expense of the good, because it does not offer a description that is full of truth and integrity.
In the end, Jesus prays for the unity of His body. Somehow, in someway, no matter how uncomfortable or agonizing it is, God expects us not just to get along with each other, but fervently love one another from the heart. And my fear is that constant expressions of frustration and anger will only serve to widen the gap between the church members Jesus died to save and unify. My encouragement from this point is to meditate on the goodness of God during these seasons of frustration. He met us all where we were at SGM churches. And He’s meeting us now. Let’s discuss it all, but being careful that our stories and discussions magnify the unity Christ died for and prays for, rather than the sin and sorrow which nailed Him to the cross.
I’m so very frustrated by the misapplication of pastoral authority and leadership in SGM churches. But I’m so very thankful for the cross of Jesus, AND the empty tomb, AND the second coming…and for how He ministered these things to me at my SGM church.
February 22nd, 2008 at 10:07 am
I don’t think many here are doing that. I think most have stated what they saw as good at their particular SGM church. I think, however, it would be more dishonest to gloss over what caused harm and chalk it up to growing pains. Being honest about these things IS part of offering up a description that is full of truth and integrity.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Travis-
I just read your blog. DUDE!!! You were getting some vicious attacks. My word. I thought you answered your critics well when you told them that since the pastors will not be forthright and say exactly why you left you feel the need to get the whole story out. And, if putting your story on the internet is somehow a sin….were you not forced to do so? I hate the mentality of being a Christian= being a big old wimp with no spine. That is not true.
I don’t agree with not tithing, but it sounds like you had some legitimate concerns about the way the money was being used. Why were they so afraid of giving an account? It seems like they should be most forthcoming about that.
Good luck to you and your family. Err…good luck probably isn’t very Christian. Blessings….that is more like it!
February 29th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
HighChurch,
Thanks. I forgot the trackbacks would appear here! I just linked to this post to provide some more context for some of my statements.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
I’m engaged to a man who attends a SG church. I stumbled upon this site and I’m now concerned. I have had an issue with submission but felt its my sin. Is there a place that truly spells out the truth about SGM. I had no idea that CJ was a former catholic? Confused…………….
April 30th, 2009 at 1:36 pm
Hi, Annette -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
First of all, I’d suggest that you post another comment to the most recent post, which you can find here. That way, more people are likely to see your comment and respond to you.
Secondly…as to the “truth” about SGM…well, that truly depends upon who you ask. If you talk to other “satisfied SGM customers,” you’ll hear a completely different take on things than if you hang around here.
It’s my belief – and I emphasize, MY belief – that what you see on the surface with SGM, and what is taught in their official literature, is different, sometimes very different, than what takes place in reality, especially behind the closed doors of a pastoral counseling session.
But…since your fiance seems to be OK with marrying a non-SGM gal, then he may be a lot more open-minded than some. Have you had discussions about how he perceives his “commitment” to SGM? Does he expect you to make SGM your home church after marriage?
As a Christian outsider, I find SGMers’ talking of their “commitment to SGM” just one of those disturbing little things, as it seems like for some of them, at least, it is of equal importance (or even greater importance, for all practical purposes) to their commitment to Christ. Their commitment to SGM sometimes seems to define their commitment to Christ…which is something I’d argue is NOT Biblical.
Take your time and read here. Ask questions. See what you think. There are more than 17,000 comments that have been left over the course of 18 months, with lots of info from lots of people who have had firsthand experience with SGM life. Feel free to read and learn, and feel free to ask anything.
I’d also encourage you to do the same with your SGM fiance and any other SGM members you know. Read and learn and ask questions of them. See how their responses make you feel.
Blessings!
April 30th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Annette,
Hi.
Does your fiancée belong to the SG church, or is he simply attending?
I ask because you did not say we attend an SG church, Just curious as in my
experience, both of you not belonging may become and issue.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I’m so looking for the truth and answers now before I marry. This has me very upset and now asking questions that I feel convicted for even having in my heart.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
My fiance’ is a very committed member of SG. We have done all of our premarital counsel with his Pastor and wife whom I dearly love. I have seen a marked difference in the marriages in this church family. I do feel as though I don’t measure up because of my lack of submission and I get angry at times feeling like I’m being told what to do… but I assumed it was my rebellion. Which it very well could be
April 30th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
I live in another state. We met through church but I’m not a member of Sovereign Grace. Its very important to him that I am in total agreement with their theology though
April 30th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Annette –
I am going to put my former SGM leaders cap back on for you.
Just going to assume that you are a committed member of SGM?
Have you done a three trees?
What heart issues have you identified in this?
What specific examples has your Fiancée give you?
What truths/righteousness are you reluctant to put on?
What lies might you be believing in light of the scriptures that were shared with you?
Ok hat off -
What is the issue? Does it relate to membership?
Is it one of a difference in beliefs, or is a difference in preference?
April 30th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Unassimilated,
Thank you for responding to my comments………..
Our main issue is the submission. OR LACK OF SUBMISSION…. I have been asked do I believe that I should submit to what he asks of me even when I don’t agree or don’t want to do it. WILL I STILL DO AS IM TOLD>
February 29th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
[...] on “neutral territory” and begin to develop relationships with them. The pastors also forbade this man to pass out copies of a Mark Driscoll book to his Christian friends until Jim had approved it, and they almost banned the men in our Care [...]