When I put up this blog less than two months ago (I think the site is just about seven weeks old now), I had NO IDEA that there was a whole hidden part of Sovereign Grace Ministries about which my husband and I had known nothing. All I thought I was doing was writing about our observations of what I’d termed SGM’s “cultural oddities.”
We hadn’t left our SG church because we’d “taken offense” to anything there. We had (and continue to have) much love and respect for our pastors. We just thought there ought to be some place online that explained how SG would seem to others like us – how SG might come across to someone who thought they were visiting just another Evangelical or Reformed church.
When we put up the site, we believed that SGM was just a “unique little denomination,” nothing more (and nothing less). We didn’t know of anything that we’d be able to point to and say, “This is not right.” We just had a lot of vague impressions and a sense that Sovereign Grace was not typical. And we thought that unwitting SGM visitors or “seekers” should perhaps have another resource out there to let them know this.
But then the comments and the emails began pouring in. And I have to say, my thoughts on just how well SGM actually practices the “orthodoxy” they claim to prize have been changing.
Here are just TWO of the MANY things that have been reported again and again in people’s stories:
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SGM actively discourages (and some have said, “does not permit,” or even, “FORBIDS”) non-pastor-led small group Bible studies. Reasons given have been along the lines of, “Small group Bible studies will lead to doctrinal confusion,” or, “The people are not mature enough to engage in this activity.” EDITED TO NOTE: A STUDENT FROM SGM’S “PASTORS’ COLLEGE” HAS STATED THAT HIS CONGREGATION, AT LEAST, DOES ”ALLOW” SMALL-GROUP BIBLE STUDIES. YOU CAN SEE HIS ASSERTIONS IN THE “COMMENTS” SECTION, BEGINNING AT COMMENT #12. THERE MIGHT BE SOME CONFUSION, HOWEVER, AS TO HOW WE ARE DEFINING “SMALL GROUP BIBLE STUDIES.”
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Many within in SGM leadership take it upon themselves to offer up binding advice on subjects like members’ decisions about whether or not to move and when and whom to marry.
There are perhaps a hundred other alarming trends that many, many folks have taken the time to report and discuss here, but the two listed above are, in my experience, absolutely outside the bounds of a healthy, normal, and – most importantly – BIBLICAL church experience.
I am growing increasingly alarmed that the people reading and writing here appear to be the only ones who are concerned about SGM’s aberrations. How is it possible that such Reformed luminaries like John MacArthur continue to be willing to share a platform with C.J. Mahaney, when Mahaney leads a group (in a manner that is, by all accounts, very active, involved, and “top-down”) that adheres to these unorthodox practices?
Why are Sovereign Grace Ministries and C.J. Mahaney only gaining MORE credibility, rather than being held accountable for these non-mainstream (and seemingly unscriptural) practices?
I’m baffled. Does anybody else out there have an answer?
January 9th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
I don’t think that R C Sproul, John Piper, Wayne Grudem, etc really know the internal workings of SGM. They are only “rubbing shoulders” based on reformed doctrine. I doubt they realize the control factor that is taking place behind the scenes. It is all very subtle and not out there for everyone to see. In fact, the more I read, the more MY eyes are still being opened. I am discovering new insights each and every day as I read these posts. And I know there must be many more who are reading, but not posting, that are experiencing new found freedom from these numerous and intense testimonies.
Even Jim Jones had well respected freinds he rubbed shoulders with in the Christian community! Little did they know what was brewing behind closed doors. Many people are very unaware of the Masonic and occultic practices of the Mormon Church. They keep these practices very well hidden by their Preisthood and Temple secrecy policies. SGM has not gone that far, but the control factor has become very obvious from these 100′s of posts!
January 9th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Something to think about is what kind of influence Sovereign Grace Ministries has on organizations outside of their “family of churches” such as the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood where CJ is a board council member. What other “mainstream” Christian organizations is SGM involved in, I wonder?
January 9th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
All I know is, when Mahaney shares a platform with the “big dogs,” that makes it seem like those same “big dogs” are giving their endorsement to C.J.’s denomination…er, family of churches.
Certain associations – such as C.J.’s with John MacArthur – made me a lot more comfortable about SGM even when I sensed things weren’t quite “kosher.” I’d notice something strange, and I’d say, “But it must just be ME, because certainly I’m not more insightful than someone like John MacArthur, and HE endorses C.J.”
I remember when we were new to SG, and I was trying to explain to my parents where we were going to church. They’d never heard of SGM (or for that matter, PDI). They’d never heard of Mahaney. But my dad is a big fan of MacArthur, having read several of his books and listened regularly to MacArthur’s radio show. So I used MacArthur to explain who C.J. Mahaney is and sort of give Mahaney some reflected credibility. And then of course my dad went, “Oh, OK. That sounds good then.”
Or I’d think about the “World’s Most Famous Christian Blogger,” Tim Challies, who has often done “live blogging” from SGM’s conferences. Challies would speak so glowingly of his experiences at these conferences, recounting all the wonderful teachings. When I’d start to think that our SGM church was “too different” from a “normal” church, I’d think back to Tim Challies’ writings and shove my misgivings aside, thinking, “Well, Tim Challies has had a lot more experience with SG folks than I have, even meeting Josh Harris for coffee at least once. I respect his writings on discernment. Certainly if Tim Challies thinks SGM is on the up-and-up, *I* must be the weird one with the problem!”
January 9th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
We’ve talked about this so many times! How are they rising in influence and popularity with so many skeletons in the closet? I think the answer is us, that is all of us who’ve been part of it but have been coerced into believing we should never bring to light and expose any of the problems we see because that would be wrong. In short, I’ve had too much fear of man up until more recently to speak the truth about what I’ve seen in SGM, as well as too little confidence in myself being able to hear from God and discern things for myself.
The influence they seem to have on major leaders like you’ve mentioned really concerns me actually. You’ve got John Piper, MacArthur, Mohler and the other Together For the Gospel, Terry Virgo, Mark Driscoll, as well as bloggers like Challies and Adrian Warnock , always seeming to plug and praise SGM and all their most visible leaders. My husband says SGM is so small they can’t be having that much of an effect but I disagree. It seems to me that some of these men talk more and more about indwelling sin and ‘humility’ as well as catching more of a macho ‘manhood’ that degrades and suppresses women. Piper’s church was recently (or still is) using Dave Harveys book in their small groups (When Sinners Say I Do). That’s quite an endorsement if you ask me!
More people need to speak up and tell the truth, open their eyes, shake off fear, and receive an annointing to roar against controlling religious spirits that are crushing so many under a ministry of condemnation and death.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Julie,
I’m glad to know I’m not the only one alarmed by these implied endorsements.
I think I must remark at least 3 or 4 times each day that I still cannot believe that this blog is the first thing of its kind out there, when obviously there are so many stories of people who have suffered because of SGM’s lopsided teachings and heavy-handed leadership practices.
Last night, as I was about to shut down my computer for the night, I checked my email one last time and couldn’t believe I had THREE more emails from people. One was short, thanking me for putting up the site and saying that someday, “when they felt able,” they wanted to tell their story. Another was longer, saying essentially the same thing but sharing a few more details. The last one recounted ten years of suffering. This person said that they really want to put up their story, but they don’t believe they want to re-visit the things it has taken them years of counseling to escape.
So a quick survey of my “in” box is all it’d take to demonstrate that there must be a great number of people out there, all suffering (or having suffered) in silence.
Since people have explained the culture of fear and the ever-ready accusations of “gossip,” I do understand a bit more about why these victims never spoke up before now. But it still boggles my mind that a relatively widespread organization (with both a national and international presence) can have gone this long without any public ramifications for some of the things they’ve done to people in the name of “accountability,” “leadership,” and “discipline.”
January 9th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Why, are we so afraid, if God is for us, who can be against us, what can mortal man do to us – ! Vengeance is Mine! says the Lord. I will repay!
I understand the fear of man, believe me I do, but confidence in Christ has given me all I need to squash out the fear I once had – I pray more feel the confidence to speak up, and out!
Jesus was like a roaring lion when it came to dealing with the false teachers and pharisees – he was ruthless!!
January 9th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Something that popped into my head a few minutes ago…
Let’s say that there’s a hypothetical businessman who attends SGM. This businessman is the CEO of a large corporation. Recently, it began to come out that there were numerous people within this man’s corporation who had started a website where they were discussing this individual’s policies and practices…how he had empowered and promoted the executives below him, even while many folks were being fired without cause or being forced to work in a “hostile work environment.” Yet this CEO was sitting on the boards of several other corporations, was continually being honored for his great business acumen, and had written books about his own great people skills.
How would SGM leadership respond to this CEO? Wouldn’t this situation be something about which they’d need to confront him? Wouldn’t this become a topic of one of those, “I have an observation…” conversations that others have reported having to endure?
January 9th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Per Kris’s request, I’m copying this excerpt from my post #82 under Contradictions since it’s also pertinent to this discussion.
Oh, and hey! I see another new “face.” Hi Julie! Welcome to our little ER triage for those recovering from Sovereign Grace Ministries. I look forward to reading your posts and learning your story.
Kris,
One contradiction I would add to the mix is that SGM boasts of its commitment to the gospel, but a critical element in the Great Commission is taking the gospel to “the ends of the earth.” Yet SGM took a stand against world missions about 10 years ago that shocked the bajeezies out of me. Some highly prominent leader shared a prophetic word that SGM was going to be used powerfully on the missions field. (I wish I could remember who it was, but it was one of CJ Mahaney’s “heroes.”) Many who had a passion for missions and who had spent time on the missions field were very encouraged by this word (my husband and I included).
But then SGM issued a statement that they didn’t support the idea of missions in the traditional sense. CJ Mahaney came to our church and preached about how he thought that missionary work should be restricted to those with “apostolic gifting.” He went on to say that there were a lot of “well meaning” but “ungifted” people on the missions field who are operating outside the “covering” of the local church. That particular church had a large Christian university right around the corner, so there were a lot of pro-missions people in the church. Maybe that’s why he felt beholden to specifically address this with our church.
Once again, there were all of these restrictions placed on what someone who wasn’t an “apostle” could do and what would be out of his/her league on the missions field. And women missionaries? Forget about it. Women can oversee something like the nursery or assigning who makes meals for a new mom. But translating the Bible or sharing the gospel, no way … even though they love Elisabeth Elliot. I wondered when she spoke at one of our events what she would think about the fact that we thought so lowly of the very work she has given her entire life to – and what her first husband paid the highest price for. (He was martyred for those who don’t know.)
And b/c of their prejudice against the missions field, you never saw them honor missionaries or have them share in our services. And they flat out debunked the whole notion of someone just getting a word from God to go on the missions field. So well-respected missions organizations and missionaries were either looked down upon or ignored altogether. I wonder if all of these nationally respected Christian leaders understand that about Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I really think the ministry has flown below the radar as long as it has b/c there was no forum like this. When you make people so afraid of ever speaking out, it’s easy to keep your extreme agenda out of the public view and skirt the scrutiny they were so eager to dole out to every other ministry.
I was part of a campus ministry that enjoyed tremendous favor in the charismatic circles for years. Their leaders were invited to speak at all of the biggest conferences, and they ran with the “big dogs,” even though their leaders were very young, controlling, and largely untested.
For that group, former members started to go to the press and got their stories out to different cult watch groups and Christian publications. Once the word got out, they came under the magnifying glass and were scrutinized by the very men who had rolled out the royal red carpet. They were even un-invited to various speaking engagements while different mature men came in and investigated the claims some very courageous college students made.
Ministries understood that by endorsing this extremely shepherding ministry, they had subjected themselves to questions of if they supported the dangerous shepherding methodologies. (And we were allowed to have Bible studies, switch care groups, move, and go on missions trips!) So all of these different leaders started to take a big step back and even speak out against the movement, in an effort to distance themselves from the controversy and their destructive practices that ravaged so many well-meaning “disciples.”
If SGM doesn’t reform its ways, eventually word will get out to these leaders who accept their teaching wholesale b/c of their seeming self-deprecating “humility” and their fawning over these ministries. We’re seeing that here in embryonic form, and the site’s only 7 weeks old. With as much traffic as this site is getting already after this short of a time period (which is unbelievable considering most sites stay in the “Google Sandbox” for anywhere from 6–12 months), I can’t imagine how many more stories will be told 6 months from now … or a year from now. And how many more people will come here and get answers to questions they’ve had – even if they never post or enter the fray.
January 9th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
“Why are Sovereign Grace Ministries and C.J. Mahaney only gaining MORE credibility, rather than being held accountable for these non-mainstream (and seemingly unscriptural) practices? I’m baffled. Does anybody else out there have an answer?”
My answer: do you think perhaps the fact that they are being accepted on mass scale by the mainstream might draw into question your analysis of the practices as being non-mainstream?
That’s what slander does, it begins to sow seeds of doubt into a person who used to be objective. That’s why your mind is changing, that’s the power of the tongue (see James…)
January 9th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Is Sovereign Grace Ministry’s stance on missions something that is openly stated anywhere?
I don’t remember where I heard this being discussed (or where I might have read it), but my understanding about SGM and missions is, they believe their focus should be on planting local churches…that they’re not ANTI missions, they’re just not actively participating in missions.
There’s a big difference between not doing something (because you do not see it as your strength) and being deliberately AGAINST something.
For instance, I cannot ice skate. I’m just not that coordinated, and I have a rotten sense of balance. So I will not ice skate. But I love watching ice skating, and I have a great admiration for the skills, training, and grace that good skaters demonstrate.
In other words, I don’t personally ice skate, but I am pro-ice skating.
Is it possible that SGM doesn’t direct its efforts at foreign missions but at the same time IS pro-foreign missions?
January 9th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
Oh, Jesse…
I haven’t lost my objectivity.
For every story folks have put up on this site, there are at least two more in my email. They can’t ALL be made up by crazy email trolls with nothing better to do than write about Sovereign Grace. These problems are real. There are many, MANY people who have been hurt by inappropriate levels of “accountability,” church discipline, and heavy-handed leadership.
If anything, I would suggest that YOU are the one who is not being objective here. You are so intent on defending the ministry you (understandably) love that you cannot admit that it might have issues…even when the same trends keep coming up over and over and OVER again.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
And Jesse,
Since you are in training at the Pastors’ College, perhaps you could set the record straight?
Is it or is it not true that Sovereign Grace Churches actively seek to discourage (or outright forbid) small group Bible studies? I’m not talking Care group discussions about Sunday’s messages. I’m talking Bible studies…the objective, inductive, fill-in-the-blank type studies that just about every normal Protestant church across the country sponsors. Does SGM discourage or forbid participation in such Bible studies?
January 9th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
seems like somebody keeps talking about a speck and not dealing with a plank….
January 9th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Jesse,
I’m asking for ONE simple, straight, yes-or-no answer. If you cannot address the question in my comment #12, then I’m going to take that as a sign that you aren’t at all interested in any real dialogue.
And please don’t give the old, “I can’t speak for SGM because I’m just one individual” answer. You certainly must know what your own SG church did with respect to Bible studies. Were they or were they not allowed?
Simple yes-or-no answer, please. Surely you wouldn’t call THAT question gossip?
January 9th, 2008 at 10:36 pm
I would like to know if Jesse could supply some information about what is being taught at the SGM Pastor’s College and who is teaching the classes. The information I find online says that the classes are ‘rigorous’, yet there seems to be no way anyone can judge that for themselves.
Is what they teach at the Pastor’s College a secret?
Maybe just those groomed not to question are given that information.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
No. Sovereign Grace neither discourages nor forbids bible studies. Simple enough? The person who shared that bad report with you was, in this case, wrong.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Wasn’t the issue in question bible studies that were sponsored by any organization outside of SGM?
January 9th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Is Sovereign Grace Ministry’s stance on missions something that is openly stated anywhere? Kris post 10
Kris
If you look at this post at the following URL:
http://ern-baxter.blogspot.com/2007/08/advertising-kansas-city-conference.html
“Ahn started a PDI church there but was eventually forced out of the movement — events that Ahn refers to obliquely in his 1998 book, INTO THE FIRE.”
(That was Dan’s Blog who posts on here regularly.)
Che Ahn was another person that was involved in the early TAG Ministries days which lead to the founding of Gathering of Believers to eventually be known as Covenant Life Church which founded Sovereign Grace Ministries. He left Sovereign Grace Ministries before Larry Tomczak was forced out. His leaving was his choosing due to the direction Sovereign Grace (PDI at the time) was taking. He was originally “sent out” from Covenant Life Church to start a church in the Los Angeles area. He is Korean American and was known for his evangelistic gifting and missions heart. .
He states in this book that “Eventually a leadership change took place in the movement. we were part of, and the new leader made it clear to me that we were no longer going to plant churches in Asia or anywhere else except the United States and Mexico.” From the dates given in the book this change appears to happen in 1992. He indicates he had been with this movement for 19 years at that time which would mean he was with them since around 1974.
He goes on to state his burden for missions etc. and how hard his movement’s change from missions was on him. He also talks about how long he had been with the founders of this movement he was part of (he did not give names but it is now known as Sovereign Grace) and his grappling with should he leave the group. He eventually decided that God wanted him to leave the group.
I have no doubt that the “leadership change” Che Ahn mentions is when Sovereign Grace’s apostolic team decided to remove Larry Tomczak as head of the apostolic team and make C.J. Mahaney the leader. Thus this is the earlier history of Sovereign Grace’s shift in their priority on missions.
I would also add that churches that espouse the Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine that Sovereign Grace Ministries promotes many times aren’t that mission oriented. “God will evangelized and save those he wants to when he is ready to” can become the understanding in churches with this mindset.
Hope this helps.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Jesse,
Thank you for your straightforward answer.
Does SG actively encourage or support Bible studies? Does the SG church in which you are currently a member have ANY of these small-group inductive Bible studies?
I know that the church we attended did not have anything like that. This is not a “bad report” – it is simply a fact.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Claireon,
It has nothing to do with keeping secrets, as you have uncharitably judged. This year not even the students got the schedule until a few weeks in advance because they had not nailed down the schedule. These pastors are real people with real lives and sometimes they have to switch around who is coming in each week. They’re not going to publish information online that hasn’t been confirmed so that they don’t mis lead people.
Keeping secrets? Once they did confirm who was doing what when they sent notification to every SGM church so that anyone who wanted to know could by talking to their pastor.
Also, if you would like to find out, I’m sure you could call them and ask them, (might be more productive than idle assumptions). I’m sure they’d be delighted to let you know who was teaching a particular subject and answer any questions you have, although they might wonder why you are asking if you had no interest in coming at all. Their phone number is on their website…
January 9th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Jesse,
Yep, that was simple all right. Simply wrong. I was in the same church as you, and there was not one Bible study offered. That’s the pastors’ jobs. The masses discuss sermons and books (as long as it’s not the Bible). Plain and simple.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Hi Jesse,
I was in an SGM church for about 10 yrs total. I do not remember one single bible study ever taking place at our care group meetings. There was another recent post from someone who said that they requested to go through the book of James at the care gruop and were forbiddedn to! They were told that the only people who were allowed to teach the bible and do bible studies, had to be the pastors. Are you saying that this person was lying?
January 9th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Kris,
Missions was only discussed in that one sermon – to clarify the message that this gentleman shared in a Celebration conference w/o discussing it w/ leadership first. They really tried not to focus on it after that. There was fallout after that one message from CJ b/c people were very surprised to hear such a strong stance against traditional, mainstream missions.
So Sovereign Grace wouldn’t say they’re anti-missions. But they only support missions ventures that follow their model, i.e., go and build local churches under their apostolic covering. And they have to be initiated by the apostolic team.
But they do not condone “parachurch” efforts (like Wycliffe and YWAM). CJ did specifically say he did not agree w/ entrusting missions to parachurch organizations b/c of the lack of apostolic covering/accountability.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
My church allows and has Bible studies taught by various people, leadership and non leadership.
Although, going back to your original post, which was that many people here have said they “forbid them”. Forbidding is different than not holding one. A church might not forbid something, might be open to it, even if they don’t have one for the sake of limited resources, or something.
What happens, so often, is that people want to have a Bible study, ask the pastor to sponsor it, he says no for a variety of reasons, such as “We don’t have the resources to promote that, or we have other priorities and don’t want to monopolize people’s time”, nothing that they can’t do it, just that he can’t carry the weight of sponsorship, and then those people who don’t have a leader’s gathering skills get an attitude and begin to assume that the pastor doesn’t trust them.
Then you hear on a blog like this the views you reported in your original post. And the power of the tongue sets a whole forest ablaze… (James, again)
January 9th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Yes, Dennis. That was me. And we weren’t the only care group leaders who asked to be able to do a Bible study in our church. Also, the pastor specifically said that the apostolic team doesn’t want groups doing their own Bible studies b/c of the potential for “wrong doctrine” being taught/promoted and people being “led astray.”
January 9th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
Hey Jesse,
Check out these schools:
http://www.sbts.edu/Home.aspx
http://www.covenantseminary.edu/attending/degrees.asp
Maybe you can help the Pastor’s College of SGM get its act together and provide information as to what they teach online. I doubt your parents and friends would be curious to know what you’re being taught and by whom, but I would think that anyone looking at your resumé would be curious to know just what that so called “Pastor’s College” is and if it’s legit.
Then again, thats just NORMAL…and there’s nothing uncharitable in wanting to know.
But since you you have gotten your last minute schedule and are geared up now to fact the rigors of your demanding coursework, perhaps you could share that information with me?
I hope it’s not a dirty little secret and what is going on in there can stand up to public scrutiny.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
I am a devoted reader, a friend of a former SGM member, so I do not post often. But what kind of resources does a bible study require? Did the Bereans back in the New Testament have to get outside resources (or help) to study the scriptures?
January 9th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
SGM Casualty,
Please do not mis-represent the truth. The question was do we forbid them. We do not forbid them. Anyone who wants to hold a Bible study can, and many people are.
Also we sponsor Bible studies taught by non-pastors (did you ever visit School of the Word?) Are you aware of the Bible study oriented discipleship groups that are being formed now? Were you in my former church during which they stopped their care groups so different groups in the church could study entire Old Testament? Are you aware that our men this month are gathering to study the book of Joshua, and that there are more non-pastors involved in teaching this than pastors?
There are many opportunities that we repeatedly make to allow the church to study the Bible in a variety of ways, and we rely immensely on non-pastors to carry the load. We don’t let non-pastors preach on Sunday, obviously, but we allow non-pastors to teach in every other setting.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
“What happens, so often, is that people want to have a Bible study, ask the pastor to sponsor it, he says no for a variety of reasons, such as “We don’t have the resources to promote that, or we have other priorities and don’t want to monopolize people’s time”, nothing that they can’t do it, just that he can’t carry the weight of sponsorship,”
(Jesse Phillips Comment 24)
Well Jesse even if you are right in your assertions that non-pastor group bible study isn’t forbidden, it sounds on “thin ice” to assert that lack of bible studies happen to do limited resources and priorities. Shouldn’t studying the bible be a high priority?
January 9th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Hi Jesse,’
Are you willing to look at any of these testimonies as being the truth?
Are you willing to let any of these testimonies break your heart?
These brothers and sisters are all speaking from their intensely personal experiences of manipulation and control. I had experienced these same exact things.
Do you think all of these post’s are lies? Distortions or exaggerations? Are you willing to ask your own congregation if they are experiencing any misgivings, red flags,
control, manipulation etc etc.
Are your members free not to tithe? Free not to be involved in care groups? Free to start an independant bible study group of their own? Free to go to another church every other Sunday? Free to attend only once a month because that is all they care to show up? Free not to serve in any fashion whatsoever with no guilt being laid on them? I could ask 100 such questions!
Atre your church members REALLY free? I am not talking about freedom to sin. I am talking about the freedom to work out THEIR OWN salvation according to God’s word.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
Noella,
Long time no see – welcome back!
I agree with you that it’s difficult to understand how a pastor would refuse a request for a small-group Bible study based upon a “lack of resources.” What “resources” would these be, especially if people bought their own workbooks and a member offered to host the study in his/her home?
January 9th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Jesse,
That explanation was more elusive than Bill Clinton on the Monica Lewinsky debacle.
Debunking leaps of logic:
“We don’t have the resources to promote that …”
The only resource needed is a Bible.
Next excuse:
“we have other priorities and don’t want to monopolize people’s time …”
Higher priorities than the study of God’s word? Yes, that will definitely put readers at ease. Monopolize people’s time? They’ve come for care group anyway!
” … nothing that they can’t do it, just that he can’t carry the weight of sponsorship”
Weight of sponsorship? Here’s what sponsorship looks like in normal, healthy churches: “You want to study the book of James? That’s a fantastic idea!” Doesn’t seem very burdensome to me … that is, unless you want to control every discussion about the Bible lest someone think for him/herself and possibly arrive a different conclusion that yours. Yes, that’s quite a load to bear. But Jesus has offered to take it.
“and then those people who don’t have a leader’s gathering skills get an attitude …” What do gathering skills have to do with this? If the person’s a care group leader, the leadership would have had to acknowledge the person/couple has some sort of “gathering skills.” Besides, even if they don’t, that’s okay … People will be assigned to the group and not be able to leave. But we had a care group with 40+ people and were known for our “gathering skills,” yet were still NOT PERMITTED to lead a Bible study. Apostolic team’s orders.
What a joke.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Jesse,
You will note that I have amended the original post to reflect your statement.
Blessings! :-)
January 9th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
Thanks for the welcome!
Did Paul say in Acts 17:11 “Now the now the Bereans were foolish, for they did not seek an apostle’s teaching to guide them in their studies of the scriptures” ?
January 9th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Jesse,
Does SGM leadership take it upon themselves to “counsel” members with respect to moving, essentially refusing to “release” the members if they do not follow their leaders’ advice?
So many people have told of this happening to them. They cannot all be making it up (“giving a bad report”). Would you say that these people are all liars?
Or is it common for leaders to weigh in on the major life decisions their members make, expecting these members to follow their “counsel”?
Are SGM members permitted to move anywhere they wish, regardless of what their leaders say, and still retain their “good standing” as members?
January 9th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Jesse, you wrote:
“SGM Casualty,
Please do not mis-represent the truth. The question was do we forbid them. We do not forbid them. Anyone who wants to hold a Bible study can, and many people are.”
Jesse, I’m not the one misrepresenting the truth. The School of the Word is NOT a Bible study like what we were talking about. That is a unidirectional time of teaching with a curriculum that has been scrubbed and approved by the pastors. We were talking about Bible study discussions.
I realize you grew up completely isolated from what mainstream Christians consider to be a Bible study. But you need to stop coming in here and shooting your self-righteous arrows at people and hurling accusations without a logical leg to stand on.
Accusing me of misrepresenting the truth is equivalent of accusing me of lying. And you clearly didn’t even understand the context for our original discussion and still have no clue about what a Bible study is, as opposed to just a unilateral teaching/sermon.
If you have questions, they are welcome. But I have grown tired of you childishly coming in here with your caustic drive-by posts that sound more like a teeny bopper’s MySpace page than a grown adult’s attempt at reasonable, LOGICAL discussion.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Hi Noella!
So glad to have you here. Sorry your first experience with me is with my interaction with Jesse. Sigh.
I do hope you’re not scared off. I don’t usually get this steamed. But I’m not usually accused of lying in a public forum either. Deeper sigh.
But great point about the Bereans! I saw both of your posts after I posted. We were obviously on the same page. ;)
January 9th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Hi SGM Cas,
Thanks for the welcome, I have been a faithful reader for weeks and really appreciate your posts. You are more than justified with your replies to such accusations!
January 9th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Jesse,
I just realized that SGM Casualty has a point. You may not know what I’m talking about when I refer to “small group inductive Bible studies.”
I am NOT referring to a time where a single teacher, pastor, or leader talks while the rest of the group essentially listens in silence until perhaps a question-and-answer time, which is still controlled by the pastor/leader.
I am talking about Bible studies that first of all involve a workbook, the sort of studies that you can find in any Christian bookstore across the country. In these type of Bible studies, there will be a leader who functions mostly as a FACILITATOR. The leader’s job is not to teach in a lecture fashion, but to go through the questions in the workbook (which the study’s members have completed as homework throughout the time prior to the get-together).
All group members are prompted and welcomed to join in, sharing their insights. In the studies of which I’ve been a part over the years, the prayers at the beginning of the study time will always be that the Holy Spirit will lead the discussion. And without exception, this always happens. Sometimes the person who seems like the most quiet churchmouse will suddenly pipe up with an amazing insight into a particular verse.
Study workbooks are usually written using the “Wh-” questions, questions that begin with who, what, why, when, where, or how. An example would be, “Why was it unusual for Jesus to stop to speak to the woman at the well?”
The idea is that the whole group spends time in study and prayer and gets together to share what they’ve all learned.
It will usually end with a time of prayer. Everybody shares their needs, and most of the time, everybody prays for one another.
This type of study is a tremendous blessing. I hope you are correct in that you’ve been “allowed” to enjoy a study of this sort.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Thanks, Noella. Well, I’m glad you have found a home here! I would imagine it probably took you a week just to read my posts! I do get going on a roll.
I look forward to getting to know you better!
Kris,
Yes, that sounds exactly like the kind of Bible study I was picturing. You’re always so reasonable. God love the Dutch!
January 10th, 2008 at 12:06 am
I need to emphasize again, while a Bible study generally has a leader, leaders of small-group Bible studies are NOT there to instruct. They are there to GUIDE. There is a big difference.
Also, these Bible studies are not “book clubs,” but involve direct interaction with the Scriptures, usually going through a whole book of the Bible and taking it chapter by chapter. The workbook used is for the purpose of guiding people through the chapters.
And the bottom line is, each person gathers with the group to both learn AND teach. The idea is that with the indwelling Holy Spirit, each believer has something to contribute to the discussion.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:23 am
I’m not sure if Jesse is going to provide me or anyone here with any detailed information about the “Pastor’s College” he attends….I guess I’ll have to wait and see.
I can’t know what his response is going to be if he responds…
But let’s just assume, for the sake of conversation, that he responds by saying something to the effect of….
“Claireon, although CJ Mahaney has become associated with Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever and Albert Mohler, all of whom are connected with either The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary or Covenant Seminary, Sovereign Grace Ministries chooses to keep private the information regarding it’s training school program. Since the Pastor’s College only solicits potential candidates for it’s Pastor’s College from inside of SGM, the information regarding the rigorous coursework is private and not public. In other words, what is taught in the Pastor’s College is for us to know and for you to find out.”
Yet….
Everyone is invited to attend a SGM church, right? I find it comforting to know that when I go to the doctor, for example, I can either read the plaques on the wall or ask what her (assuming she decided not to homeschool) or his qualifications are. I would probably have my doubts about someone who attended the Joe Schmoe School of Internal Medicine.
Now, lets say that doctor did attend the Joe Schmoe School of Internal Medicine, yet wanted me to swallow their prescriptions without question. Would I be able to confidently tell my smart friends that my doctor wasn’t a quack and that he was the best man to treat my concerns? My caring friends would want proof of that, and if I cared about myself, I wouldn’t want to put myself under some quack doctor’s care, regardless of whether he was dressed in J. Crew and drove a mini-van with a bumper sticker that read, “I Love My Family”.
In the same way, since anyone can walk off the street into a SGM church and become a member if they wanted to…..and given the fact that a member is told to SUBMIT and OBEY the leadership….wouldn’t it be fair to ask just what kind of training goes into giving someone like Jesse, or anyone else in SGM leadership, the right to assume such authority over people’s lives?
I could go on but I think I’ll just wait to find out what is taught at the Pastor’s College because I would truly love to be proven wrong by learning that those busy guys with their busy lives who teach there are all highly qualified enough to crank out the kind of leaders that can demand obedience, have “gathering skills” and can rightly judge who the non-gathering skills people are who “get an attitude and begin to assume that the pastor doesn’t trust them”.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Great questions, Claireon. Yes, we are asked to assume anyone Sovereign Grace Ministries puts into a pastoral role is equipped for the task, regardless of if he taught high school math or worked construction before showing up at the Pastors’ College with a Bic and goatee. And it’s considered brash if we ask for someone’s qualifications.
But this quote was priceless:
“My caring friends would want proof of that, and if I cared about myself, I wouldn’t want to put myself under some quack doctor’s care, regardless of whether he was dressed in J. Crew and drove a mini-van with a bumper sticker that read, ‘I Love My Family.’” Just struck my funny bone. Of course, at this hour, I get punchy pretty easily.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:45 am
Hi There SGM Casualty ;-)
How about this for a theme song for this thread?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHd3ck6fHBw
January 10th, 2008 at 12:46 am
Sounds like y’all had an interesting evening here. Hi Noella!
I’m sorry I missed it all, I was at a Ladies’ Bible Study. (for real, I was)
I’d like to address Jesse’s comment #28:
“There are many opportunities that we repeatedly make to allow the church to study the Bible in a variety of ways, and we rely immensely on non-pastors to carry the load. We don’t let non-pastors preach on Sunday, obviously, but we allow non-pastors to teach in every other setting.”
*We don’t let non-pastors preach on Sunday, obviously…”
Why is this ‘obvious’? My PDI church had a variety of speakers back in the 80s and 90s at times. They weren’t all preachers. Some of them weren’t even ….gasp…Care Group Leaders…imagine that. God using mature Christian nonpastors to teach other Christians. What a concept.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Ha! That was the same song that came to mind for me when I read Kris’s scintillating little title! Perfect theme song. Heh heh …
January 10th, 2008 at 12:51 am
Claireon,
I realize that you may not be interested in such an “assignment,” but since Jesse says that anyone can know what’s going on at the Pastors’ College (that all they have to do is ask for the info), would you consider contacting them? Perhaps via an email? And just requesting their curriculum? You could even say how you were told that it’s freely given to anyone who asks…that a PC student said so himself.
That might be the quickest way to find the answers to your questions. It’d also be interesting to see if really IS possible for a “person off the street” to obtain information about the curriculum.
I mean, it IS possible that your curiosity could be easily satisfied.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:53 am
Ellie,
Your choice of music is hilarious. :-)
January 10th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Here http://www.sovereigngracefamilynews.org/extra/missions/ it describes some of the missions that Sovereign Grace is involved in.
CLC, used to say that “the nations have come to our city”, and they had/have, no holes barred. Out for errands, you can go all day without hearing English spoken, but Spanish, Mandarin, Portuguese, and even, Fante-Twi will surround you.
I can’t say whether the Alpha program, or others means of witnessing, specifically reach out to these immigrants, but many are in the same communities as CLC members. I’ve neighbors from China, India, Africa, and Mexico, and a few natives, too.
This idea of ‘missions at home’ is not exclusive to CLC in the D.C. area. The hope is that after finding Christ, the foreigners will, eventually, carry the gospel home to their own families, cultures, and in their own languages. Of course this doesn’t exclude overseas missions.
Don’t know much about the current plans of CLC or SGM for missions, but just filling in the picture a little more.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:19 am
Kris,
re: #48 – that was my good friend Claireon’s recommendation.
Pretty thought provoking song!