When I put up this blog less than two months ago (I think the site is just about seven weeks old now), I had NO IDEA that there was a whole hidden part of Sovereign Grace Ministries about which my husband and I had known nothing. All I thought I was doing was writing about our observations of what I’d termed SGM’s “cultural oddities.”
We hadn’t left our SG church because we’d “taken offense” to anything there. We had (and continue to have) much love and respect for our pastors. We just thought there ought to be some place online that explained how SG would seem to others like us – how SG might come across to someone who thought they were visiting just another Evangelical or Reformed church.
When we put up the site, we believed that SGM was just a “unique little denomination,” nothing more (and nothing less). We didn’t know of anything that we’d be able to point to and say, “This is not right.” We just had a lot of vague impressions and a sense that Sovereign Grace was not typical. And we thought that unwitting SGM visitors or “seekers” should perhaps have another resource out there to let them know this.
But then the comments and the emails began pouring in. And I have to say, my thoughts on just how well SGM actually practices the “orthodoxy” they claim to prize have been changing.
Here are just TWO of the MANY things that have been reported again and again in people’s stories:
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SGM actively discourages (and some have said, “does not permit,” or even, “FORBIDS”) non-pastor-led small group Bible studies. Reasons given have been along the lines of, “Small group Bible studies will lead to doctrinal confusion,” or, “The people are not mature enough to engage in this activity.” EDITED TO NOTE: A STUDENT FROM SGM’S “PASTORS’ COLLEGE” HAS STATED THAT HIS CONGREGATION, AT LEAST, DOES ”ALLOW” SMALL-GROUP BIBLE STUDIES. YOU CAN SEE HIS ASSERTIONS IN THE “COMMENTS” SECTION, BEGINNING AT COMMENT #12. THERE MIGHT BE SOME CONFUSION, HOWEVER, AS TO HOW WE ARE DEFINING “SMALL GROUP BIBLE STUDIES.”
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Many within in SGM leadership take it upon themselves to offer up binding advice on subjects like members’ decisions about whether or not to move and when and whom to marry.
There are perhaps a hundred other alarming trends that many, many folks have taken the time to report and discuss here, but the two listed above are, in my experience, absolutely outside the bounds of a healthy, normal, and – most importantly – BIBLICAL church experience.
I am growing increasingly alarmed that the people reading and writing here appear to be the only ones who are concerned about SGM’s aberrations. How is it possible that such Reformed luminaries like John MacArthur continue to be willing to share a platform with C.J. Mahaney, when Mahaney leads a group (in a manner that is, by all accounts, very active, involved, and “top-down”) that adheres to these unorthodox practices?
Why are Sovereign Grace Ministries and C.J. Mahaney only gaining MORE credibility, rather than being held accountable for these non-mainstream (and seemingly unscriptural) practices?
I’m baffled. Does anybody else out there have an answer?
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
January 10th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Jesse,
I would like to encourage you to do a study on a couple of topics.
New Covenant Theology vs Covenant Theology
and
The Shepherding Movement
January 10th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Travis left a good comment up above (#84) that got lost in the moderation queue while I tried to vacuum my house (like the good Titus 2 woman that I am, most of the time :-) ). I would encourage everybody to scroll up and take a look at what he said.
In Jesse’s defense, I would agree on Travis’ analysis of what Jesse might have meant by his use of the word “allow.”
However, if you notice how many times Jesse uses it with reference to a pastor’s authority (not just about Bible studies, but about other stuff too), that’s when it simply becomes yet another illustration of how much authority and power SGM leaders believe they have over their members.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Hi Jesse,
So my question remains. Why does the PASTOR have all of this authority to say what and what will not be sponsored? Do the prophets have any say in this matter? What about the evangelists? Why is the PASTOR running the show here? What biblical basis do you have to give all of this “authority” to a pastor or to that specific minisrty?
Where is the imput of the rest of the ministries and the rest of the body of Christ?
January 10th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
No, Jesse…
It’s not because you’re “challenging” me. It’s because of your whole “bedside manner.”
You do not come across as remotely “pastoral.”
You seem to care ONLY about defending SGM. You do not seem to care about the people who are behind the words that appear on your screen. You have called many of them liars. You have accused us of various sins. You have assumed, always, a very authoritarian stance here…and you have NOT come across as “humble” at all.
And believe me, as I pointed out several days ago, my perceptions on your lack of demonstrated humility have NOTHING to do with your ability to argue, debate, or refute. It’s not because you are offering up a “stern defense of the truth,” or whatever it was you thought you were doing.
It’s because you don’t seem to care about the PEOPLE. If you did care, you wouldn’t be quite so lightning-quick to pounce on them. You’d listen more. You’d perhaps entertain the (frightening, I know) notion that at least SOME of what they are saying is probably true.
What was that line from I Corinthians 13? “Love believes all things…”
January 10th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Hi D2L,
It seems that God is leading us all to similar sources to confirm what He is revealing to all of us about the hidden dangers at SGM. Thank God for His continued mercy to lead us out of bondage and into HIS truth!
January 10th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Jesse
As I have read your various posts over the last week or so, it concerns me that you don’t seem open to even “entertaining” the possibility that problems may exist in Sovereign Grace or at least in some of the Sovereign Grace churches. Some of your recent comments seem as if you are trying to “justify away” things that have happened rather then being open to the possibility that something wrong may be going on and has happened in the past. It is almost as if you are moving to explain or deny what has been mentioned here before even digesting what has been said.
Are you sure your response isn’t cognitive dissonance (as Kris introduced us to) or having rose colored glasses on? Is your response denial since you don’t want these stories to be true? Also, I am sure it is hard for you to believe any of these stories could be true when it appears that God is blessing Sovereign Grace in so many ways.
Had there been just a few posters explaining these problems, I wouldn’t blame you and would think it would be easy brush these reports off. But especially when I hear Kris say that for every story she sees posted she gets emails telling of similar experiences, I wonder how you can be closed to the possibility that there might be some truth here. Additionally, the number of hits to this blog and the number of posts that have occurred in the few weeks this blog has been in existence should be a good indication to not casually brush off what has been brought up.
It might be a good idea to reread SGM Casualty’s post 8. I am pretty sure of which group she is referring to and what eventually happened there was quite sad. I would hope that if there are problems that need to be addressed in Sovereign Grace, your leaders are open to God’s correction. I hope with your attitude that you aren’t paving the way for something similar to happen with Sovereign Grace that happened to other group mentioned in SGM’s post.
How do you think would you feel if down the road the ministry that your father helped build and are now yourself trying to become a leader in, experiences something like SGM Casualty described? Wouldn’t it be sad if you looked back and could see how you closed your mind to warning signs and alarms given? Just something to consider. I will hope you prayerfully consider what has been said here vs. wanting to be able to deny it.
I understand you are a pastor in training. I am hoping how you come across here isn’t typical of how leadership in Sovereign Grace is responding to what is being alleged here.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Hi Lynn!
Welcome! I’m so glad you found us. I, too, searched several times for information about Sovereign Grace after I left and was surprised no one else was speaking up. It has been validating to hear the accounts of others who went through similar trials during their sojourn with the ministry.
And, Dead2Law, we must have been writing the same thing at the same time! If it looks like a duck (duck being, in this case, a ministry that has found itself entangled in the Shepherding Movement’s teachings and methodologies), acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck … You get the idea.
The Shepherding Movement started with the best of intentions. It was a handful of men who wanted to hold each other accountable for the sake of growing in godliness. Great! But then they started experiencing the fruit of it (*enter heavenly applause*) and decided it was so cool, everyone should adopt this lifestyle. Yes, encourage Christians to have others in their lives who really know them and can be like Aaron and Hur, holding up their arms when they grow weary in battle. So far so good in my mind. I still have relationships like this, and I treasure them.
But then they decided they were going to set up systems and put leaders in charge of these systems. And then they started operating under the assumption that believers won’t pursue relationships like these on their own volition unless they’re motivated by fear, so they’ll start requiring these extra-biblical rules as a requirement for membership and using scare tactics to quell all signs of uprising. Then leaders, underestimating their own sinful desires/temptations/cravings for anything from man’s approval to full-blown God-like control over people’s lives, start really doing the heavy damage.
As you can see, what may start as the purest motive can careen out of control and become an unwieldy beast that causes very real casualties. Paul summed it up best with this passage (Gal 3:1-3):
“You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? AFTER BEGINNING WITH THE SPIRIT, ARE YOU NOW TRYING TO ATTAIN YOUR GOAL BY HUMAN EFFORT?”
January 10th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Jesse, in regards to post #9, Sovereign Grace Ministries may seem to be gaining popularity with other mainstream Christian circles- this is very possible because of what Soverein Grace Ministries claims to believe, but if anyone came in and spent significant time within the ministry I wonder what would happen then…..? You can’t judge a book by it’s cover…..
also, I believe Cov. Fel. of Phila. had a huge drop in their tithe just this past year…….huge, don’t know if that is still the case, but if people are withholding their tithe they must not be happy about some things…….
January 10th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Dennis and Dead2Law
Wow, what an excellent article, I just skimmed it a bit, but will definitely be reading it…thanks for the link…it seems to me this could be very empowering to those who want to stand up for what Sovereign Grace Ministries is teaching/ doing to people……
January 10th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
SGM Cas
That has been a favorite Scripture of mine since leaving Sovereign Grace Ministries – !!
Under a curse, and yes that’s how it feels……
January 10th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Speaking of tithing, isn’t it amazing that Paul never says one word to the Gentiles about tithing! Paul never mentions the word tithe or 10% one single time! Tithing has nothing whatsoever to do with the NT church. The description of tithing in Hebrews is all about the OT practice of it. Tithing was never carried over to the NT church. Also, Jesus mention of it to the Pharisees was also according to the Jewish laws, not to the church. Neither is it a NT priniciple nor a “guidline”.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Ok, so when I said I wasn’t going to post anymore, I made a mistake.
I’ve been following along, and I just have to comment on people asking pastors for their permission/cousel on things in the first place. It was something I never understood at SG/PDI. I mean, I was fortunate to have grown up in a Christian home and if I needed advice from my parents, I could talk to them about anything. I came to SG during college, but I was in it for 10 years or so, so definitely had a lot of adult time there. Anyway, it always boggled my mind that friends and people were going to the pastors before making decisions. Like basic, everyday life decisions.
I have friends who had a room open in their house and needed a roommate. Another friend was coming to the end of her lease, was friends with the girl in the house, and needed somewhere to live. Do you think that between them, they could put their heads together and work something out without having to seek pastoral counsel and cover it in prayer for a week or two? When I needed to move, I found a place and moved. When I wanted to change jobs, I found something else and changed. When I wanted to leave the church, I left. Didn’t talk it over with lots of people, just felt like it wasn’t where I needed to be, and so I did something about it. It’s called using your God-given judgment about what’s best for you – or your family, if that’s the case. I just could not understand it. It was an almost holier-than-thou attitude of praying over every decision and seeking pastoral advice when really it’s just called using your brain sometimes. I mean, I don’t see anything wrong with asking around and bouncing an idea off of a few more experienced people…there’s wisdom in that. But ultimately, you weigh the pros and cons and you make a decision. It might not always work out the way you’d hoped, but you adjust and move on. It’s called LIFE!
I just never understood whether the people were so needy and indecisive that they had to seek pastoral input, or if the pastors have set themselves up in such a way that they impressed people with the need to seek their input before deciding something. I don’t know – I never got that impression from them, but I sure as heck wouldn’t have heeded it if I had…call me stubborn that way, but I like to actually get input from people who KNOW me, and whom I know and respect.
Jesse, I also wanted to say that while I appreciate your perspective in these discussions, the sarcasm leaves a really bad taste. I know there are others being sarcastic, but generally you should know that it’s something that makes it hard for people to actually hear the good things you do have to say because they can’t get past the biting way you’re saying it.
Just my two cents…
January 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
“I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. [Gasp! Shocking!] But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”
Cas, LOVE IT!!
Lydia and Julie – you are posting some great stuff, thanks!
January 10th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Hmm…where to start. I probably shouldn’t start at all, but I can’t help myself. I think this site is probably needed and a lot of the criticism of SGM is legit (some isn’t). As a SG go’er I ask myself a few questions.
Have I noticed heavy-handed, authoritative leaders, at times, yes. Have I seen an emphasis on accountability, yes. Have I seen an obsession with the cross, yes. Have I sat in sermons where the first 10 minutes is spent praising another person, yes. Have I seen a lot of bald men leading churches, acting like C.J. Mahaney, yes. Have I seen some “over shepherding,” probably.
However….
Are Bible studies prohibited, no. Does everyone court, no (I didn’t). Is everyone in an accountability group, no (I’m not). Does everyone come to caregroup, no. Does everyone tithe, no. Does everyone use the word “cross” every other word, no. Does everyone preach with their eyes closed, arms out, and with a lot of tears, no (although C.J. can really bring it).
Here’s my story. I have been in a SG church for 22 years (minus the 8 years I spent as a heathen and minus the 10 years it was my parent’s church when I sat on a chair with my arms crossed). So, it’s been MY SG church for about the last 5 years. My parenting, personal growth, and my desire to reach out to others has grown. My understanding of my sin nature, my inability to earn salvation, and my need for undeserved grace have also grown. Are there things that I would change, sure. Which leads to my next story.
I listen to Mark Driscoll…..a lot. Probably too much. I read his book, Radical Reformission, and wanted a group of SG (and non-SG) men to read the book with me so we could be encouraged to be more missional. I organized a group of SG men and we started going to a local pub to hang out and just be Christians in community actually in the community. My leaders had some questions about what I was doing but ultimately they said go for it. They wanted to read the book which I was ok with (imagine if I was passing out “Your Best Life Now”). To this day I meet with one of my pastors frequently and he asks about it and it has been great. I guess what I am getting at is, YOUR local church “experience” is what YOU make it. If you let yourself be a “casualty” you will be. If you have an idea (Bible studies included) and you go about it in the right way, you can get the “blessing” for just about anything. Sure that sounds controlling but there is a lot of crap out there that the pastors need to be on the lookout for. Many times people have arguments with pastors in their minds. If you let the pastors you are arguing with into the conversation/argument/discussion/debate you may get somewhere.
Mark Driscoll preached a sermon at Piper’s Desiring God conference and he laid out 9 hills worth dying on when it comes to the faith.
Nine issues to contend for: (taken from New Attitude blog)
1) The Bible. The overarching meta-narrative over everything and everybody.
2) The sovereignty of God must be contended against open theism.
3) The virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
4) We must argue against pelagianism, a denial of original sin.
5) We must contend for penal substitutionary atonement.
6) The exclusivity of Jesus.
7) We must contend for male and female roles
We must contend for hell.
9) We must contend that kingdom is priority over culture
Courting…..not on the list. Bible studies…..not on the list. Church polity (government)…..not on the list. Tithing…..not on the list.
In summary, I believe that SG is rock solid in all nine of those areas and everything else is up for debate. Too many people die on the wrong hills and then take on the victim mentality. If you feel the leaders of your church (SG or not) are being too restrictive, tell them (I do!!). Agree to disagree sometimes and just suck it up. I strongly believe that there are far too many crybaby Christians. Get tough, be a man (or a manly woman) and voice your concerns in a respectful open minded way because you, yes you, might be wrong too.
Anyways, I like the site, keep it up.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
The whole book of Galatians is wonderful. I remember our pastor in Sovereign Grace Ministries, then PDI, said that Galatians was only about justification, and had nothing to do with taking up the Law again for your rule of life. But a clear and normal reading of the book says differently. Thank God, Christ has freed us from the Law.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Steve,
It sounds that you do know the ministry I’m speaking of. Sadly, the leaders responded the same way Jesse is here when the allegations starting flying. They took on a similar persecution complex and drew lines in the sand – ultimatums. They said (essentially), “You are either for us or against us!” And everyone had to choose one or the other. There was no middle ground. And the last thing you wanted was to be turned in to leadership for consorting with the enemy.
In fact, the leader of that ministry denied any responsibility for the unbelievable abuses that took place under his watch right to the end … even when his most trusted advisers tried to reason with him. I really hope that, if more mature men come along and respectfully investigate some of the concerns brought here about SGM’s shepherding practices, CJ Mahaney and company will respond with my humility and transparency than those leaders did.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Jesse,
Again, I encourage you to do a study on Covenant Theology vs New Covenant Theology. Maybe later I will post some links.
I have posted links in the section on this blog about called “Your Questions and Concerns” about the tithe and the Sabbath.
Again, thank God, Jesus has freed us from the Law. Including the tithe!
January 10th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Jesse,
You said:
“I’m speaking for myself primarily, although I know that the apostolic team must be okay with BIble studies, given the fact that the do happen in a variety of different ways.”
Thank you for clarifying that you are speaking only for yourself and not SGM leadership. I think we’ve already established that your definition of Bible study and the one presented here that those of us have experienced outside of Sovereign Grace Ministries are incongruent. So your conclusion doesn’t fit the issue at hand.
But I do appreciate your clarification, nonetheless. I think it’s an important distinction for visitors here to understand.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Hi Lynn, I am way behind in my reading today, but WELCOME!!
January 10th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Oops … Meant to write in my last sentence of post 116:
“I really hope that, if more mature men come along and respectfully investigate some of the concerns brought here about SGM’s shepherding practices, CJ Mahaney and company will respond with MORE (NOT MY) humility and transparency than those leaders did.”
January 10th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Pub Man,
Thanks for your perspective, and welcome to the discussion! :-)
I’m glad that your experience with SGM leadership has been significantly different than that of the majority of those who have posted here.
I’d really take exception to your description, though, of “crybaby Christians” who are somehow looking for perpetual victimhood. I think that if you go back and read through people’s stories (and I understand you may not have or want to take the time to do that), what you’ll hear is a combination of “the perfect storm” in most of these situations – where people with backgrounds that made them prone to feel comfortable in authoritarian relationships then got sucked into a dysfunctional arm of an SGM authoritarian system.
Your point that pastors “have a lot of crap” to look out for is a good one. And it’s even better, like I said, that you were “permitted” to do the Bible study/book club meetings that you wanted to do. But I think others bring up some good points about the whole nature of how much authority a pastor ought to have in these instances.
Finally, my point about all the “lifestyle doctrines” (homeschooling, courtship, accountability groups, etc.) was that the deeper one gets into SGM, the more pressure one might feel to follow these systems, particularly if one is headed for a leadership role.
Again, thanks for posting, and thanks for your perspective.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
re: #91
I’m also curious why you keep saying “we” when you refer to the stances of different pastors (e.g., “WE want OUR people studying the Bible … Do WE expect members to follow OUR counsel? … If they don’t agree with the counsel, then WE would engage them in some discussion as to why they disagreed and hopefully come to some resolution, even if it meant changing OUR original counsel, which WE do all the time … Well, if a person moved he may still be in good standing relationally, because WE recognize that God leads people elsewhere.”
…………………………….
I was wondering about that, too, Cas…esp. with the OUR people.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Eileen,
Welcome back! We’ve missed you. :-)
January 10th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Hi Pub Man-
Glad you stopped by – you are one of those that gets by in SG well, good for you!!!!
It definitely works for some and not others…..I believe you called us “crybaby” Christians, is that really true!
Question, since when is Mark Driscoll the leading authority on what we should and shouldn’t contend over????
January 10th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
re: #103
So my question remains. Why does the PASTOR have all of this authority to say what and what will not be sponsored? Do the prophets have any say in this matter? What about the evangelists? Why is the PASTOR running the show here? What biblical basis do you have to give all of this “authority” to a pastor or to that specific minisrty?
Where is the imput of the rest of the ministries and the rest of the body of Christ?
………………………………….
Dennis,
I remember back in the 80s and early 90s before the pastors went to “Pastor’s College” and were just humble godly men with a calling who were “one of us”, the whole church atmosphere (at our church anyway) was different.
One thing that I always wondered was why men who had been pastoring for years with members who were growing in godliness had to go attend the PC? What do they learn in 9 months that they hadn’t learned in all the years that they had been in leadership before?
January 10th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Hi,
I must admit I am quite nervous to comment. Not because I think I am going to “get in trouble” but because I am nervous about starting a conversation that I won’t have time to finish. I go to a SG church and I love it. BUT- I have had concerns and each time I have gone to my pastors. I think because we, everyone, are sinful we can possibly place barriers on ourselves that is intending from the pulpit. In other words, due to fear of man, not wanting to stand out, uncharitable judgement, self-righteousness the congregation might place undue pressure on itself. I am thankful for my pastors who are completely sinful and yet trying to lead and trust the Lord. They are aware of their inadequacy, which in their eyes are many, but they are trying. I have been offended by them but I have also shared with them my offense. I have had concerns but I have gone to them with it. I hate that you all have had such a terrible experience or at least it appears that you are upset, annoyed, concerned, whatever you want to call it. I do wish you’d go back to those various pastors and regardless of their response, regardless of their acceptance of you, regardless of what they say, share your heart, ask God to help you, repent of sin where needed, and receive God’s grace. At the end of the day, at the end of your life there’s only one thing that will matter and it won’t be this blog.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Oops. I meant to say barriers that are NOT intended from the pulpit
January 10th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Interesting to read “Pub Man”‘s comment and I did find the testimony about life within SGM really helpful. It helps me to understand where the passion for SG comes from. Two things I’m not so sure about;
Firstly Mark Driscoll’s things to contend for. I read a similar list in Joshua Harris’s “Stop Dating the Church” and was disturbed in both incidents that there was absolutely no mention of the Presence and power of God by His Holy Spirit. Both lists (which were similar) read something like a good systematic theology. I am guessing Driscoll took some time in the sermon to defend why these are nine hills worth dying on. Because I didn’t find such biblical defence in Harris’s book. Okay so I might sound like a stuck record about the Holy Spirit – but I really can’t figure how this isn’t guilty of preaching words without power.
Secondly;
“Agree to disagree sometimes and just suck it up. I strongly believe that there are far too many crybaby Christians. Get tough, be a man (or a manly woman) and voice your concerns in a respectful open minded way because you, yes you, might be wrong too”.
Well Mark Driscoll’s influence here is clear. I too take exception to this. There’s nothing wrong with crying although yes I would agree that taking on a “victim mentality” and not accepting the healing power of the Holy Spirit to get over the past isn’t healthy. Jesus wept because He grieved at the death of His friend. And I am sure we could all agree that there is no more manly Man than Jesus.
But; “Get tough, be a man or a manly woman”?! I don’t think so.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
“I really hope that, if more mature men come along and respectfully investigate some of the concerns brought here about SGM’s shepherding practices, CJ Mahaney and company will respond with MORE (NOT MY) humility and transparency than those leaders did.” SGM Casualty
Let’s hope that what you say will be found to be true. Interesting note Sovereign Grace once endorsed this group you are referring to and at some point withdrew their endorsement.
SG Casualty
If you want to email me, my email address is posted on my blog.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Kris,
Funny you mentioned “the whole nature of how much authority a pastor ought to have in these instances.” I am currently in a discussion with my pastors about this and they have been more than receptive to discuss the issue.
I’m not so sure my experience has been drastically different than those that post here. I have had disagreements and concerns with leadership on multiple issues. I think I may have gone about them differently. Then again, maybe not.
Thanks for the response. I look forward to my thrashing from others.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Dan,
Laugh a little. I think you’ll live longer. At least that is what I’ve heard.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
re: #112
I just never understood whether the people were so needy and indecisive that they had to seek pastoral input, or if the pastors have set themselves up in such a way that they impressed people with the need to seek their input before deciding something. I don’t know – I never got that impression from them, but I sure as heck wouldn’t have heeded it if I had…call me stubborn that way, but I like to actually get input from people who KNOW me, and whom I know and respect.
……………………………………..
Eileen: I know EXACTLY what you mean!! And I must be stubborn that way too – it’s kind of like those that go to the pastors for everything are too lazy to seek God for themselves or don’t have any kind of real relationship with the Lord.
I have the same problem with people who go to the doctor for parenting advise. I always ask women who have life experience with their own children, pray, and then go with what I feel God would have me do. I can’t see the sense in asking some guy with book knowledge something that someone else has learned through real life experience.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Hi Ellie,
You make an excellent point. The pastoral role should be one of us as all of the other ministries are. The mindset that they are all “up there” and the rest of us are “down here” is a terribly destructive fallacy. It divides the “clergy” from the “laity”. We are ALL equal members of the body of Christ! ALL MEMBERS have equal say. There is no hierachy of minstries or pyramid structure taught for the governing of the NT church. there is an excellent book by Frank Viola called “Pagan Christianity” that discusses where these man made structures took root. Much of it is tied to the structure and mindset of the Catholic church. Luther did not change everything!
January 10th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Lydia,
Don’t take it personally. I did not call you a crybaby. Classing blogging. Could you have toughed it out and sucked it up in your SG church, I don’t know. I don’t know your situation.
However, most of the disgruntled people I know have left over trivial matters that are not central to the faith.
Whether Driscoll is an authority in your book doesn’t really matter. I never claimed he was an authority, it just seemed like a pretty practical list to me. If I were going to leave a church (SG or not) it would probably be over one of those issues.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Pub Man,
Just curious have you read all of the posts, and all of the testimonies? Most everyone has had discussions where the pastors were receptive to discuss issues……and yes many here have disagreed with their pastors as well -so far you are on the same page, however in most of the tetimonies the pastors began to overplay their hand and dish out
harsh, critical council…..out of fear and not love, my guess is you are talking issues that are not of a very complicated relational nature,( or of your husband abusing his authority and treating you badly )…..my pastor were always open to talk about anything, that was never a problem…but what was a problem was how they dealt with difficult issues, like addictions, abuse, rage……
Anyway, I am not so sure you know where everyone is coming from….not trying to thrash you….just pointing out a few possible misconceptions…..
January 10th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Ellie,
Right! We have a saying: “Pray to God, but row towards shore!” So many people were/are content to just pray to God and tread water until they get an answer… I just don’t understand that.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Pub Man,
I know of many who left over small issues that were nagging to them, and they couldn’t put their finger on any theological error simply because they just want to live, loving God, worshipping Him…..many people I knew, only knew they loved God and wanted to live for God…that’s it, you can’t fault them for their decisions……..how do you know it wasn’t the kind Lord meeting them where they were at??
Anyway, I know you weren’t calling me a crybaby specifically, but I just wanted to point out that is how people could take what you said…….I did tough it out and sucked it up….for too long I might add, because my pastors had the same mentality as you which I may point out sounds a bit chauvenistic,thought you just might want to consider that………
January 10th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Welcome Pub Man,
You wrote:
“I guess what I am getting at is, YOUR local church “experience” is what YOU make it. If you let yourself be a “casualty” you will be. ”
You are right that people have to allow abuse to happen. I think one of the saddest realizations, when you have suffered abuse in the context of a Christian ministry, is that you could have stopped it sooner but didn’t for any number of reasons. But fear is usually at the top of the list.
You also wrote:
“If you have an idea (Bible studies included) and you go about it in the right way, you can get the “blessing” for just about anything.”
That’s way oversimplified and just not true. First, you were granted permission to lead a book study, which we’ve all acknowledged was blessed from “above.” Bible studies were not, and it didn’t matter if you went about it “the right way.” And what exactly would be the “right way” to ask permission to have a Bible study? And why the heck do we need “permission” to begin with? For us, we asked b/c we were care group leaders, and you couldn’t just do something in the context of care group that wasn’t approved by the pastors.
But I had another friend who just started a Bible study (not book study) without telling anyone. It never occurred to this person to “ask permission.” But when it was discovered (b/c someone else “reported it”), the Bible study was shut down in short order and the person who started it was told that this sort of thing needs to be approved by the pastors.
But welcome to our world! And I am genuinely grateful you have been able to chew the meat and spit out the bones, as we were able to do for years.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Care group leader???? Is that in the Bible? I thought SGM was suppose to be a Bible believing and biblically structured organization!
January 10th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
“Get tough, be a man (or a manly woman) and voice your concerns in a respectful open minded way because you, yes you, might be wrong too.”
Hey everyone, I think the crybaby remark was primarily directed at me. ;) At least, it sounds like what he told me the last few weeks before I left the Joppa church. Pub Man (#114) is a buddy of mine, and our families are actually going to be spending a good chunk of this weekend together. We love each other like brothers, so keep that in mind as I rip him a new one. ;)
“Does everyone come to caregroup, no.”
Joining a Care Group is one of the requirements of membership at the Joppa church. If you don’t do it, you’re essentially asking to be removed from the membership rolls. They don’t require perfect attendance, but they do require regular attendance.
“Does everyone tithe, no.”
I suppose my “mistake,” then, was to inform the pastors that I wasn’t tithing. Because they sure turned it into a “hill worth dying on.” They also refused to help a poor family (members of the church) when the pastors learned they didn’t tithe. (Once that family did start tithing, though, the pastors “helped” by passing ‘em a barely-running car that required more in repairs than it could be resold for.)
“My leaders had some questions about what I was doing but ultimately they said go for it. They wanted to read the book which I was ok with (imagine if I was passing out “Your Best Life Now”).” To this day I meet with one of my pastors frequently and he asks about it and it has been great.
Odd, that’s not quite the way I would put it. Your plan wasa to just start the group. Someone who was invited “blew the whistle” to the pastors, who immediately put the kibosh on meeting in a bar at all, and then prohibited you from giving copies of Driscoll’s book as gifts to the other guys (unless and until the senior pastor had first read and “approved” it). The book wasn’t unknown to them (as your Osteen remark suggests), because they told you the senior pastor had already begun to read it a few weeks earlier. Also, your continuing to meet with that pastor was a condition they required if you chose to move forward with the pub group against their wishes. (It’s God’s grace that the pastor assigned to your “case” is the one most sympathetic to your desires for the group.)
“So, it’s been MY SG church for about the last 5 years. My parenting, personal growth, and my desire to reach out to others has grown.”
Yes, you have experienced growth over the past three years that I’ve known you, but it started when you began listening to (and reading) stuff by John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller, etc. If anything, the Joppa church seemed to be killing your desire for spiritual growth.
Anyway, all of this talk about pastoral oversight brings me to the comment I was going to leave earlier:
==========
If I could try to summarize the “allow” issue one more time, I would say it’s a result of the incredible fear SGM pastors live with in light of this verse:
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. — Hebrews 13:17 (ESV)
I’m convinced that the pastors harp on the “obey and submit” part largely because they’re scared to death about the account they’ll have to give to God. That’s why they feel they have to green-light things like member-run Bible studies, because (as they see it) they will have to “give an account” for anything their members take away from that study.
The message to the congregation is this: Your performance dictates your pastors’ eternal reward. (It’s actually similar to what’s expressed to pastors’ children, as mentioned a few days back: your behavior determines your dad’s job security.)
I was asked (numerous times) to leave the Joppa church because my beliefs on tithing changed, and the Sr. Pastor was concerned about the account he’d have to give if I wasn’t going to “submit” to him in that matter. (BTW, that’s in quotes because he wasn’t asking for the submission referred to in the Hebrews passage.) Rather than come alongside me in the work God is doing in me, he preferred that I leave his oversight. And that’s not just my assumption; he specifically told me–in front of another pastor and my Care Group leader–that if I wouldn’t submit to him in this then I ought to leave, because otherwise he would have to give an account for my unsubmissive (that is, untithing) behavior.
==========
Like he said, “Pub Man” probably listens to Driscoll a bit too much. :p
Some guys shave their heads (to look like C.J.), others call people crybabies (to look like Driscoll). Me? I guess I like to spend a lot of time examining little details (to be like John Piper). ;)
January 10th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
We get onto the Catholics because there is no POPE in the bible and no CARDINALS. But then SGMers have SENIOR pastors, ASSOCIATE pastors, pastors IN TRAINING, pastor’s COLLEGE, worship TEAMS, CARE GROUPS, CARE GROUP LEADERS, CELEBRATION, apostolic TEAM, etc. etc. Who came up with all of this??
January 10th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Wow Travis!
Good thing you qualified that you love each other like brothers before writing the rest of that post! lol
Now I understand the “thrashing” Pub Man was worried about! I was wondering what kind of “thrashing” a “manly man” could possibly fear from a bunch of wimpy crybabies who died on all the wrong hills. (I really am playfully teasing, Pub Man. I actually have too thick of skin to be insulted by your comments b/c I think they’re rooted in the insecurity that Sovereign Grace elicits in men b/c of THEIR warped perspective of manhood.
Anyway, thanks, Travis, for bringing balance to Pub Man’s sunshine and rainbows post! Very enlightening indeed.
January 10th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Wow. 142 comments on this post alone and 1754 hits so far today. Quite a day.
I’m just going to interject a little something here for all of you. You’re all friends in my eyes, whether you agree with us (me and Kris that is) or not. I appreciate the passion that all of you are exhibiting and the “grownup” manner in which everyone is posting.
Let me ask you to keep Kris in your thoughts throughout the day, as this blog has really created quite a lot of work for her. She’s the most awesome person (as you can all tell by now) and she works very hard at keeping the spirit of the conversations moving in a Godly manner. I pretty much keep my mouth shut, which is probably a good thing
I’m not quite sure why I’m saying this, other than to ask you to continue to support this endevour through your prayers. She’s getting a tremendous amount of email (some of the people that are sending it would really surprise you). This little blog is getting a lot of attention, and each person that is coming here is seeing the whole story. Each of you have a role in the healing that needs to take place. There are a lot of bitter folks as well, and your encouragement is appreciated. There are also a lot of people that love Sovereign Grace Ministries, and I really appreciate that too. Don’t lose the fire that you have.
She (Kris) won’t tell you this, but she is 100% dedicated to keeping this up, using her amazing writing skills and her strong Bible knowledge. It’s taxing on her, but well worth the effort. She’s got an amazing heart and I believe it shows here. Keep her in your prayers.
That’s all…I’m going back behind the scene now
January 10th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Guy,
You are so kind and sweet to bring this to us on her behalf…..I can’t imagine how time consuming this is for her and I so appreciate her hard work and her words of insight, I am always so amazed by everything she says on here – you got yourself a FiNE woman, IMO….
Thanks Kris for your dedication to this blog – I appreciate you and your are definitely in my prayers………..
January 10th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
SGM Cas
you make me laugh…….!!
January 10th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Guy,
I definitely will. I can only imagine how all-consuming this blog must be. We are so grateful for her skills, heart, wit, and wisdom. Please let me know (via email) if there is ANYTHING I can do to lighten Kris’s load!
January 10th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Guy Behind
I have been constantly amazed at Kris’s excellent writing skills. Kris does a great job of keeping the discussions going etc. I wish I had the kind of ability in writing.
I can just imagine how much time this blog requires on her part and to think that this blog is something that kind of just happened and wasn’t planned.
Hopefully this blog will get the attention it needs and do a good work for God’s kingdom. The number of hits and comments shows that something must going on here.
I will remember to pray for you and Kris.
Kris
Thanks again for all of your work on this blog. I am sure this must be something how this all of a sudden took you by surprise. We do know that God wouldn’t have given you this “assignment” if He didn’t think you had the ability for it.
Let me know if I can do anything to help.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Lydia, I’m so glad! My gift to you.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Travis,
As you buddy, that was not ok. This is not the place to air out your perception of happenings. The “crybaby” was not directed to you at all. I didn’t even think about your situation as I wrote.
As for the rest, we’ll talk this weekend.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Cas said:
“Guy,
I definitely will. I can only imagine how all-consuming this blog must be. We are so grateful for her skills, heart, wit, and wisdom. Please let me know (via email) if there is ANYTHING I can do to lighten Kris’s load!”
The same with me, Guy! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Kris}}}}}}}}}}}}