When I put up this blog less than two months ago (I think the site is just about seven weeks old now), I had NO IDEA that there was a whole hidden part of Sovereign Grace Ministries about which my husband and I had known nothing. All I thought I was doing was writing about our observations of what I’d termed SGM’s “cultural oddities.”
We hadn’t left our SG church because we’d “taken offense” to anything there. We had (and continue to have) much love and respect for our pastors. We just thought there ought to be some place online that explained how SG would seem to others like us – how SG might come across to someone who thought they were visiting just another Evangelical or Reformed church.
When we put up the site, we believed that SGM was just a “unique little denomination,” nothing more (and nothing less). We didn’t know of anything that we’d be able to point to and say, “This is not right.” We just had a lot of vague impressions and a sense that Sovereign Grace was not typical. And we thought that unwitting SGM visitors or “seekers” should perhaps have another resource out there to let them know this.
But then the comments and the emails began pouring in. And I have to say, my thoughts on just how well SGM actually practices the “orthodoxy” they claim to prize have been changing.
Here are just TWO of the MANY things that have been reported again and again in people’s stories:
-
SGM actively discourages (and some have said, “does not permit,” or even, “FORBIDS”) non-pastor-led small group Bible studies. Reasons given have been along the lines of, “Small group Bible studies will lead to doctrinal confusion,” or, “The people are not mature enough to engage in this activity.” EDITED TO NOTE: A STUDENT FROM SGM’S “PASTORS’ COLLEGE” HAS STATED THAT HIS CONGREGATION, AT LEAST, DOES ”ALLOW” SMALL-GROUP BIBLE STUDIES. YOU CAN SEE HIS ASSERTIONS IN THE “COMMENTS” SECTION, BEGINNING AT COMMENT #12. THERE MIGHT BE SOME CONFUSION, HOWEVER, AS TO HOW WE ARE DEFINING “SMALL GROUP BIBLE STUDIES.”
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Many within in SGM leadership take it upon themselves to offer up binding advice on subjects like members’ decisions about whether or not to move and when and whom to marry.
There are perhaps a hundred other alarming trends that many, many folks have taken the time to report and discuss here, but the two listed above are, in my experience, absolutely outside the bounds of a healthy, normal, and – most importantly – BIBLICAL church experience.
I am growing increasingly alarmed that the people reading and writing here appear to be the only ones who are concerned about SGM’s aberrations. How is it possible that such Reformed luminaries like John MacArthur continue to be willing to share a platform with C.J. Mahaney, when Mahaney leads a group (in a manner that is, by all accounts, very active, involved, and “top-down”) that adheres to these unorthodox practices?
Why are Sovereign Grace Ministries and C.J. Mahaney only gaining MORE credibility, rather than being held accountable for these non-mainstream (and seemingly unscriptural) practices?
I’m baffled. Does anybody else out there have an answer?
January 11th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Dennis said:
“If it were up to me, I would run into my former SG church with a bull horn and tell everyone to run for their lives! But I guess from what you are saying, that would not be a good idea.”
Ha, I had the same thoughts today…
January 11th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
I’ve been reading this blog since back in November when Claireon, a friend of mine, came across it. I don’t know how many years she had been telling me that she had googled for info on SGM and then this blog pops up, so that was pretty cool. It’s been interesting hearing other experiences and observations, much of which confirmed what Claireon had mentioned previously. All of these experiences considered invalid (as Jesse seems to have implied a few times which is really bothersome to me coming from a “pastor in training”) whether they are anonymous or not. Also, the fact that people have shared their personal experiences regarding SGM isn’t a result of bitterness as you said in #220, Jesse. Trying to make people feel guilty for sharing their experiences sounds like some sort of control tactic that obviously is not going to work here. I think it’s great that many are coming out and sharing as I think this kind of info can be very valuable in helping others who are either there now or just coming out.
I personally have never attended an SGM church, but I have listened to a number of sermons by CJ over the years (including the ‘awesome’ one on modesty :-Þ). I was so intrigued by this ministry a couple of years ago that I posted a discussion on a message board (not mentioning SGM) about the dangers of focusing on the cross and neglecting what comes after the cross. We shouldn’t be continually holding our head in shame over Christ’s death, not to say that we should not repent etc. The thing is… Christ is no longer on the cross & we can walk in victory! The whole cross thing was really quite disturbing to me along with the distorted focus of indwelling sin.
So anyways I just wanted to come out of hiding and count for an actual person rather than just a ‘hit’. hehe I think you’re doing a good job, Kris and I’m glad your husband has been so supportive of you doing this.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
I guess I was thinking of my post entitled, “When SGM Works.”
I mean, there ARE people who are very comfortable and happy there…those who already fit the mold, or those who have been raised in it and know nothing else. They have all their lives invested in it, love their friends, and feel satisfied with the work that God has given them to do there.
Is it any of my business to point things out to them? I kind of don’t think so. It’s not like SGM isn’t a Bible-believing church. And not all churches have the same imbalances in their doctrinal emphases. Right?
January 11th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
oops made a typo… I meant to say… all of these experiences can’t be considered invalid…
January 11th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
SGM Casualty,
I forgive you. I know that it was simply a mistake, no ill-harm intended. Thank you for taking that initiative. You didn’t have to do that.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Kris,
It is apparent that once a victim, always a victim. And nothing you do as a victim can be suggested as retaliatory, because you are after all a victim.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Hi, Nancy Drew. Welcome to the site! :-)
You make some interesting observations. As a quasi-outsider myself, I’m always intrigued by what other “outsiders” think of all this.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Welcome Nancy!!
January 11th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Hi Kris,
I was in a bible believing cult for 10 years before coming into SG. People tried to warn me, but I would not listen. I felt like I was greatly blessed to have such a great family, great teaching, great worship, and great fellowship. This is also how I later felt at SG. It took 10 years (each time) for the lights to come on. I guess I just liked fires and frying pans!
To Jesse,
No. I am not a victim. The bible says that I am more than a conquerer through Christ Jesus who strengthens me!
January 11th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Hey Kris and Ellie. Thanks for the welcome. I’m not sure I’ll have much more to say here, but I’ll be reading. :-)
January 11th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
No, Jesse. Once a victim, now an overcomer through Jesus Christ!
Didn’t you had a “teaching” to write or something?
January 11th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Wow Jesse…I reckon it’s time for me to step in here.
In this open forum, you’ve been allowed to post whatever you want. However, let me tell you honestly, that if you EVER walked up to me (or my wife) and spoke in the manner in which you write here, you probably wouldn’t be able to lead worship for a few weeks.
Do you realize that you are (whether you want it or not) the only “SGM Authority” on this site? Everything you say is setting a tone for the organization you represent. Your snide comments and shoot from the hip approach to things makes me very, VERY glad that I didn’t get deeper into SGM than I did.
Want some advice? I realize I’m not in “authority” over you, but you can bet your bottom dollar that I’ve got more experience than you do – sit back, take a breath, and realize what you’re doing to your beloved organization. You are validating everything that’s been said, and a little more. I hope you’re not the person that you appear to be in your comments, because if that’s what a pastor does, then I fear for the future.
And another thing…brother…watch out how you talk to my wife. Capish?
January 11th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
LOL, Dennis!
January 11th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
YES, Guy!
I love how you protect your wife!! Now that’s true biblical manhood!
January 11th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Guy’s cool.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Now you understand my avatar. A shepherd. Get it?
January 11th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Hey, yeah! I get it now!
January 11th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
” You are validating everything that’s been said, and a little more. I hope you’re not the person that you appear to be in your comments, because if that’s what a pastor does, then I fear for the future.”
That’s along the lines of what I was thinking when I saw his responses here in this thread. You would think coming from Sovereign GRACE Ministries that a pastor or soon to be pastor would handle things in a more gracious manner. I think Jesse needs to realize that all of these things being said here are not just mere words on a screen but they are all real people and being the person he is should be upholding a good reputation for SGM. He’s leaving sort of a bad impression for SGM unfortunately and the things that have already been said against SGM are being confirmed by his responses…. not so cool.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
Dennis,
In your comment #247, which got lost in the shuffle, I think you put forth an interesting question.
Perhaps others can answer your question here, if they feel comfortable.
If you left SGM, what “helped” you realize your need to leave? Did other people’s questions, information, or comments help you in your realization?
January 11th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
WOW Guy!
That was very powerful rebuke! I never had the guts to say what I really felt. I wish I had had your courage and boldness at those times when I was being controlled and manipulated! I guess I was too much of a wimp to stand up for what I believed in.
I felt like I needed to be meek, mild and humble. But I guess I really needed to clear out the Temple like Jesus did! In fact I think I’ll go make me a whip right now! And maybe I will buy that bull horn after all! CHARGE!!!
January 11th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Ut oh…..
January 11th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
I have only now read the earliest posts from this thread. Jesse is wrong. I was on a church plant for 3 years. Things that have long been accepted in my large Philly area SGM church were dropped like bombs on the small new church. One was -No individually led bible studies. No, it wasn’t forbidden from the pulpit in a public way, but came up when my friend wanted to lead a bible study with some non-church co-workers.
Again, I had been attending a SGM church for 20 years. I was saved in an ultra (scary) charismatic church before that. I can look back now and think of all sorts of non-bilblical doctrines that were preached and taught (like God’s perfect choice for you for marriage), but one thing we did often was open our bibles. In every service, several times, with lots of cross reference and mention of the cultural context and background etc. And we were encouraged to study the word and teach one another and we had all kinds of bible studies – SO….. when I finally arrived a Sovereign Grace (then People of Destiny) I was somewhat taken aback and disappointed at the lack of WORD. The care groups were very lacking in study of the bible. If we read from the bible at all, it was just to re-read the one scripture that the message was outlined from the previous sunday. That one scripture, by the way, I have since found, was often, if not usually, taken out of it’s context. Anyway, early on, i asked caregroup leaders and pastors “can’t we have more bible study in the caregroups?” The answers were usually something like -”well, these are caregroups, not bible studies…. care is much more that study of the bible” -i honestly do not remember back then being told that bible studies were forbidden, but they just were not done. In the new church plant, though, they were forbidden. Most everything done in a SGM church trickles down from the top -why would this be any different? I bet you will not find a single Sovereign Grace church that encourages folks to have bible studies -and what is most grieving to me is that you will not find the caregroups studying the bible either. That is a fact!! someone prove me wrong.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Okay, guys, at this point I just have to say that I have been physically threatened, by the guy behind the scenes (#262).
The conversation has now come full circle. This conversation started with me asking you guys why you posted anonymously, and we started talking about the fact that you needed to conceal your identities for the sake of personal safety.
Now, ironically, these anonymous bloggers are threatening physical harm sufficient to incapacitate for a period of time a blogger whose identity is known.
You know, the thought did cross my mind when I received that threat that I should stop posting and protect myself, because you all know who I am, and are at an advantage, and might actually be able to follow up on your threats of physical harm.
You said that you were looking out for people, and that they should feel safe to post here. Unless of course, you disagree with the author, as I have found. At that point you receive threats. You say you want open discussion, only to personally attacked not only by reputation, but now physically.
I feel (subjectively) as though the folks on this site oppress the opposing view, gang up on those who disagree, you are warning others against raising red flags or sharing observations about you, ALL of the VERY things you ACCUSE Sovereign Grace of doing, yet you do them to those who are not like you. You seem very homogenous, getting along with those who are like you, yet making people feel “Nervous” about entering in with an opposing viewpoint.
Kris, if this site is to be effective, I think a better job should be done moderating the comments and validating the claims.
I would just like to say that I will never visit this site again for some time. I do not say this out of spite, but just because having been physically threatened, I do not fear this, I am not anonymous, nor will I hide behind the cloak of anonymity, but I do not see much fruitfulness in any further discussion. You may be glad to see me go because I have challenged what I feel are unsubstantiated claims.
Feel free to delete these comments, they will probably not be missed by anyone. I would just like to say that this open discussion you profess to want is not very open to those who disagree.
Ethically, there is a dilemma on the internet of folks being able to physically threaten others (even through innuendo, which I hope that’s all it was, brother).
I still think that my time here has not led to much change only further aggravate, although I have tried to point out a way to move forward for all of you, because I deeply care for you as brothers and sisters. We disagree, of course, but somehow, I think we can all have the attitude of Paul that recognizes our own sin as the most serious of all.
I do plan on posting a review of my experiences here on my blog and some thoughts that I have about the original issue of anonymity in the future. I would appreciate your comments on that blog, assuming we can keep it within the realm of Christian civility.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
oh give me a break….
January 11th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Oh really, Jesse…
Please.
That was a JOKE.
But even if Guy had been serious, you wouldn’t have anything to worry about unless you were planning on being rude to me in person?
January 11th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Jesse,
I think your moving on would be best. Your posts did serve a purpose though; I just don’t think it was the purpose you set out to do. But is God is sovereign over all of that. (And I’m being sincere in that.)
But before you do move on, I wanted to thank you for your gracious response to my apology. I’m grateful that was my last interaction with you – and not one of the ones where we were locking horns with each other. It will help me to remember you with fondness b/c you could have taken some cheap shots but didn’t.
Blessings to you as you pursue your calling as a pastor!
January 11th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Also, Jesse…
I just love how you hone in on the part of being “physically threatened,” without ever responding to Guy’s very legitimate charges about your rudeness.
You HAVE been rude. Every time I see your name pop up in the “recent comments” box, I almost hate to look at what you’ve said. Not because I can’t deal with you. But rather, because it’s so frustrating to try to dialogue with someone who just keeps spewing out the same old accusations, with not even a particle of social grace.
Like today. I pointed out to you how you have never treated us as your brothers and sisters in Christ. You’ve never shown us any respect as people – even the people whose identities are known to you because they’re posting under their real names.
But did you even ACKNOWLEDGE what I said, beyond perhaps a snarky little phrase? No. You just barreled on with more rebukes about how we’re all just wallowing in our victomhood here.
And the ironic thing about that is, I have NEVER been a victim of SGM, except perhaps now, now that you’ve seen fit to preach one of your self-righteous, pharisaical sermons on sin earlier today.
Please, yes, by all means, blog about your exploits here. Your victimhood. Send more traffic our way. It will do people good, because anyone with a shred of discernment will have NO problem seeing what a “great” example you are of SGM leadership. As several people have tried to tell you, your writings here have done nothing but validate everybody else’s (all the VICTIMS you so scorn) stories.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Keith, so glad you’re IN! (Here that is.
)
Thank you for confirming the Bible study issue! As you probably read, we went round and round on that issue with some pretty nebulous explanations coming from our resident SGM representative. But it is as you say – along with everyone else here – Sovereign Grace is against small group, open discussion Bible studies.
I think Jesse fought the issue so hard b/c he realizes just how extreme that will appear to mainstream Christians who stumble on this site. It seems extreme b/c it is. Plain and simple.
I also was in a controlling, charismatic church before SGM. But they wouldn’t have dreamed of forbidding Bible studies. THEY actually came down hard on members who DIDN’T participate in one of their many Bible studies!
January 11th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Somebody just wrote this to me in an email:
It’s too bad Jesse is leaving. His posts served as perfect illustrations of the very problems he’s trying to deny.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
And this:
“I find it ironic that Jesse, who was always so rude to people, is now leaving because he feels he wasn’t treated nicely enough.”
January 11th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Guy and Kris,
I couldn’t agree more. And, Guy, that was an amazing picture of what true biblical headship should look like.
I’m also really glad that we’ll all be able to move on from all contending with Jesse, which was becoming quite the distraction and exercise in futility.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Jesse,
You take yourself entirely too seriously. It sounds too me like you are severely stressed out… Your post was totally off the wall – do you realize how nutty you sound?? Acting like Guy was THREATENING you??
Or were you just trying to figure out a way to get Kris and Guy to delete your posts?
January 11th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Well, I’m not in agreement with how Jesse was treated — by Kris, by Guy, or by a number of others here. I think there’s been a lot of post-first, think-later activity here tonight.
Responding to any rudeness by Jesse with more rudeness toward him — and any implied threats toward his person — is lamentable and unchristlike. Guy could certainly have sent Jesse a personal email to make his thoughts known.
I’m not claiming perfection in all I do, by any means. But years of online interaction has taught me that restraint, and waiting before hitting the Enter key, is usually wise. The Holy Spirit almost never urges us to race forward and get our words out; I think many of us have ignored his gentle promptings as we’ve hastily written and posted very emotional thoughts for all the world to see.
Driving Jesse — or anyone who’s not being obscene but simply contentious — off this forum is not a feather in our cap. It’s not something to be proud of.
I urge restraint and prayer to God for wisdom as we read and post.
Good night all.
January 12th, 2008 at 12:02 am
lol @ Jesse
good luck man
January 12th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Don,
I appreciate your push for restraint and wisdom.
However, it has been tremendously wearying, this whole round-and-round thing with Jesse. While I keep taking on faith all the nice things that you and SGM Casualty have said about him, I personally have been the recipient of nothing but his rebukes.
It may not have been “obscenity,” but there’s a certain point where I don’t know why his attitude should be given a free pass…or why WE should be on the receiving end of ALL of your correction.
Maybe I read you wrong? But that’s how it seemed to me.
January 12th, 2008 at 12:36 am
Kris,
I appreciate your view. However, there’s no gun to anyone’s head forcing us to respond to any person’s remarks. There are lots of fights that are worth walking away from, before they start. If duelling with Jesse was wearying, then I suggest that was a sign to ignore him. I still believe that engaging Jesse patiently, over the long term, was worth doing. That’s not going to happen, now.
Overall, I think people took Jesse’s remarks too seriously, put up their dukes and started brawling without first asking, “Lord, what’s the loving and wise thing to do in this instance?” You ask, “I don’t know why his attitude should be given a free pass…” I think it’s because Jesus told us, “whoever smites you one one cheek, turn to him the other also.” If that applied to Roman soldiers, it certainly applies to a brother in Christ.
Regarding why I’m addressing the group, but did not address Jesse: I was following my own advice, and ignoring his comments when I read them earlier tonight. I only stepped in a little while ago, when I saw how he essentially said goodbye, and the group replied with a bunch of razz. I really think that since the majority of us on this forum have been hurt much more deeply than Jesse likely has, God extends more grace to us to be more loving and patient. Isn’t the goal here to discuss and learn, rather than to win arguments and be right?
January 12th, 2008 at 12:42 am
Don,
With all due respect, I really think you’re getting a little sucked in to Jesse’s melodrama. He has come riding in here on a white steed again and again hurling accusations and rebukes as he goes. When someone compliments him, he ignores those posts and, instead, moves on to his next self-righteous tirade.
With the exception of his last post to me (which I genuinely appreciated), he has continually been brash and has run roughshod over people. But when someone calls him on his own behavior, identifying it for what it is (rude, disrespectful, arrogant, childish), he cries foul and plays the victim in full Scarlett O’Hara style, replete with swooning and patting his beaded brow. So the young man who has told us on numerous occasions that we’re just succumbing to a “victim mentality” has repeatedly fished for sympathy from the group, with wound-licking statements like, “I don’t know why I keep posting here …” You can’t have it both ways. If you’re going to tell everyone to just get over very REAL abuse, man up and take a rebuke with a modicum of masculinity and humility. A simple post, “I’m sorry for being rude to your wife, Guy” would have done the trick and saved everyone the unnecessary high-drama theatrics.
I’d also like to clarify that no one drove Jesse off. And clearly Guy wasn’t really threatening Jesse. But he WAS telling Jesse after a weeks-long history of incredibly rude and insulting posts – many of which were directed toward Kris – to watch his manners when speaking to his wife. His hero, CJ Mahaney, would have done the same thing. I’ve heard stories of CJ eating for lunch anyone who acts disrespectfully or aggressively toward Carolyn – and that without apology. (Oh, and those stories came from CJ in the context of telling men they need to protect their wives as the weaker vessels!)
I don’t know if you are married, but if someone came up to your wife and repeatedly spoke to her the way Jesse has spoken to Kris – especially when she has answered him graciously time and time again – I find it hard to believe that you would show the restraint you seem to be rebuking Guy for not showing. I could be wrong about that. But if I did see a husband sitting idly by while a man took one cheap shot after another at his wife, I wouldn’t be able to respect him as a husband. (Just Jesse’s snide question to Kris about if the dictionary was inerrant struck me as so aggressive and sniper-like … especially when the last post to him before that little drive by was a highly complimentary post that he completely ignored.)
Your restraint correction would have been so much more appropriately directed at any other point in this thread than the slot you chose. If anyone (besides Jesse) would have been reserving of your correction tonight, it would have been me. I lacked restraint in my posting today, and I have taken responsibility for that. But I do not feel that it is fairly directed at Guy or Kris. Just my honest opinion.
January 12th, 2008 at 12:44 am
As someone with no particular interest in SG but experience with the internet since before there was a World Wide Web…. JessieP was aiming for that sort of departure. There are 3 months of people brining up a wide range of issues on a wide range of topics. He choose to address the meat of exactly 0 of these. Person X says Y was done to them, Jessie could have pulled out church policy and indicated what SG’s official positions are on how to handle this.
Moreover, #262 was not a physical threat, it was a comment that Jessie was acting like an ass and being quite rude. He was trolling, he started getting treated like a troll and he made a troll like exit. That’s all.
I am a non Christian (certainly a minority viewpoint on this forum), with no SG experience (again minority viewpoint) and I’ve been treated politely.
January 12th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Don,
Thanks for your reply.
I agree with much of what you’ve said.
I do believe, though, that in a forum such as this, I have something of a responsibility to respond to certain accusations and assertions. Otherwise, it would appear to readers that by my silence, I’m essentially agreeing with what people have said. In Jesse’s case, I simply could not do that.
It’s not a matter of BEING right. It’s a matter of standing up for WHAT is right, as I see it.
But I do appreciate your graciousness and your wisdom! :-)
January 12th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Wow, CD-Host,
You’re a non-Christian? Do you address anywhere on your blog how you happened to get interested in church discipline? That’s fascinating!
January 12th, 2008 at 1:02 am
CD-Host,
What a very interesting and straight-up perspective. It made me LOL in a very literal sense!
Not that this was your intention CD-Host – since (as Kris loves to say) you REALLY have no horse in this race – but you provided a very real reminder for all of us here who are Christians to remember that we are representing Jesus in our online actions and behavior just as much as if we were to interact with non-Christians in a mall or on the golf course.
I’m glad you feel you were treated politely here. And I’m thrilled you keep coming back. My curiosity couldn’t be more piqued as to why! That really is fascinating to me. But, regardless of the reason, I’m glad you do and you will remain our special guest.
January 12th, 2008 at 1:02 am
Don,
I too appreciate the spirit in which you offered your words. I mean no harm to anyone. However, I’m the Sheriff here (albeit self-appointed).
We’re pretty free flowing here, but I have to throw out a couple of caveats:
1) If somebody drives recklessly through here, they’ll get a ticket.
2) If they run over somebody in the process, I’ll cuff ‘em and stuff ‘em.
’nuff said.
January 12th, 2008 at 1:05 am
Cas,
Thanks for your thoughtful remarks. All I can say is that I’ve been treated much more rudely in my life than Jesse has acted toward anyone here; I’ve been around people who are just wired to be confrontational, and have learned that a lot of such talk is just bluff.
I’ve also learned by watching others who, in the face of significant verbal pressure, have remained calm, restrained and patient — while continuing to work toward a good goal. Some of those people have been in online forums such as this one. Flame wars — and this was a very civilized one, as such things go — are usually very bad for the community’s focus and cohesion.
It’s very possible I missed some of Jesse’s remarks among the 280+ on this thread, and thereby missed something insulting. If so, I apologize for not having seen something truly insulting. What I did see was someone being stubborn, combative, a bit rude. But I’ve seen worse in previous work situations and online forums. I submit again that there’s a lot to be gained — especially in online forums — by simply ignoring a lot of huffy statements that are essentially posturing.
BTW, I didn’t say anything earlier because I wasn’t sitting here watching the whole thing develop, moment-by-moment (and by the time stamps, it appears it was indeed moment by moment).
I’m just sad about the whole thing — I think that both Jesse and his antagonists spoke some truth about others refusing to be open to hearing another’s points. I think that emotions took over, and regrettable things were both thought and posted. IMHO, having Jesse leave was not in the best interests of this group or himself.
I hope we can all have a great weekend, full of God’s presence and grace. A final goodnight to all.
January 12th, 2008 at 1:06 am
O.K. …I definitely saw the void of any Bible study groups being encouraged or mentioned from the pulpit, but I do know that reading the Bible was strongly encouraged. But I often wondered why we only did book study groups, and for the women it was always a Titus 2 type study. But of greater concern to me was this:
We were constantly hearing about the cross…and how we would never stop talking about the cross, and we were hearing very little about the Holy Spirit and the resurrection power that He offers the Believer. When we asked why teaching on the Holy Spirit was sparse, we were told by our pastor that the congregation was “not ready’ for it. Leadership was afraid that people were not ready to hear teaching on the Holy Spirit, and that it could even cause people to leave. Does anyone else find that shocking or just me? I mean come on guys…..the Trinity is a package deal, don’t you think? And who decides who is ready for the full package or not…..I personally think that is the only way the gift is meant to be given…..the full package deal to ALL Believers!!!
January 12th, 2008 at 1:12 am
CD-Host,
I too am glad you are here!!
January 12th, 2008 at 1:16 am
Freeda,
Thanks for getting us back to the original subject! :-)
I have to say, in our first little while at our Sovereign Grace church, we found all the focus on the cross to be very refreshing. So many “user-friendly” churches these days avoid ALL mention of sin, blood, Jesus’ sacrifice…and without the “bad news,” you can’t appreciate the “good news,” right?
So when we realized we’d found a church that did not shy away from the “hard truths” of the Gospel, we initially thought it was really great.
I’ve described our experience on Easter Sunday before, so I won’t go into it again, but I think the “doom and gloom” we felt on Easter was the first jarring realization that something was seriously amiss with the constant focus on Christ still hanging on the cross.
If you can’t even find it in yourself to celebrate Christ’s resurrection on Easter, then it’s likely you’ll never get around to discovering the empty tomb.
As far as the Holy Spirit goes, once again, as somewhat burned-out Charismatics upon our arrival at our SG church, we initially didn’t mind that there was no real focus on the more “embarrassing” Spirit gifts. But again, after awhile, I started to wonder why they even bothered to call themselves Charismatic, when about the only Charismatic thing we did was the times of “prophecy,” which were practically always occasions of people feeling led to read particular passages of Scripture. This type of “prophecy” was NEVER anything remotely risky, either. I often wondered why they even had the guy up there next to the microphone, the gatekeeper.
If you came into our SG church with no knowledge of the Holy Spirit, you would be hard-pressed to learn anything specific about Him. Certainly, in all our time there, there were NEVER any times of just seeking the Lord’s presence. The Spirit gifts like tongues were NEVER discussed. The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” was NEVER discussed, either, although according to their own doctrinal statements, SGM does believe that it CAN be an event that is subsequent to salvation and should be sought.
I’ll agree with you, the whole thing was puzzling.
January 12th, 2008 at 1:22 am
I am a 47 year old who has been a born again believer for a long time. I have many friends in sgm churches and my daughter was recently involved in a relationship with a young man in a sgm church that was serious enough to lead to marriage although it didn’t. While they were “courting” (I will never use the word again) she also attended a sgm church. I am admittedly an outsider, although I believe I was able to experience and observe some aspects of the church in a very personal way. It’s too late tonight to write much more, but I look forward to joining the conversation. I will leave you with this tidbit. Controlling authority is an understatement.
January 12th, 2008 at 1:24 am
I really do think Jesse was aiming to have all his posts pulled. I think it finally sank in that he hadn’t really represented SGM in a good light and he got a bit irrational.
And Don, really – Jesse has been sniping at Kris for weeks. I laughed when I saw his last post because it was SO silly. It kind of reminded me of Nellie Olsen on Little House on the Prairie being finally stood up to after bullying all the kids because her mom was in charge of the town and taking her toys and flouncing off.
January 12th, 2008 at 1:27 am
Whoops, ok, back to the subject…
Yes, why IS that guy up by the microphone anyway?
January 12th, 2008 at 1:30 am
Welcome, gloria!
See you later on today! (1:26 AM <—- )