Once again, we need to start a new thread for comments pertaining to Noel’s story. If you haven’t already done so, DO take the time to read her story here. The second comments thread can be accessed here. The new comments thread begins here.
|
|
|||
376 comments to New Comments Thread (Again) For Noel’s Story |
Custom Search
|
||
|
Copyright © 2010 SGM Survivors - All Rights Reserved Canonical URL by SEO No Duplicate WordPress Plugin |
|||
January 18th, 2009 at 12:14 am
By the way, the Lord has convicted me about spending too much time on forums and blogs, so unfortunately for you I won’t be reading your replies here. I could be tempted to spend hours a day here discussing this. I need to not spend my time on this, I’ve got other irons in the fire.
But, if I have wildly misunderstood Noel’s story, or there is something you feel you really *must* tell me, drop me an email: CBdeVidal (AT) Gmail (DOT) com. You can comment on what I said above so that everyone else sees it, I’m OK with that.
Don’t forget to pray for your pastors at whatever church you attend. They need it. They NEED it.
January 18th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Chris DV wrote: Mother, who though is truly a victim (but also suffers from anger)
Me: Chris, here is your first problem – anger is not a sin! Let me say that again in case you missed it – anger is NOT a sin. Do not claim that “sin (is) on both sides” – that is a typical SGM shoot the victim response. Noel is a mother protecting her child. The church has covered up for this boy’s sin for years. They even tried to get his record cleared and keep Noel out of the loop so she couldn’t stop it. Your response is very typical SGM.
I guess we do agree on one thing, God is on the move to get his hurt people out and away from anymore danager. Those who have been abused are coming forth and it is all over the SGM denomonation, not just in one or two churches. Yoru post has done more than enough to legitimize the stories of the folks damaged by SGM.
Yes, it was a cover-up. SGM is famous for that – go read the latest post on http://www.sgmrefuge.com about another cover up that they are in the midst of pulling as I type this. Stop the SGM worship – I think I read somewhere that we aren’t supposed to have idols.
January 18th, 2009 at 12:24 am
Hi, Chris. Thanks for your comment and welcome to the site.
I’m sure others will have more to say about what you wrote, but here are my initial thoughts:
First of all, it is simply NOT TRUE that if a ministry is growing, that means that “God is blessing it.”
Also, I do not think that your experience is necessarily true across the board, for all people in all SGM churches. You wrote,
Lots of former SGM folks have shared quite the opposite, actually. Apparently, you have at the very least not spent much time at the SGM church in Chesapeake. In fact, here’s a quote from the latest post over at Jim’s site, sgmrefuge. This quote is from a letter written fairly recently by 3 current care group leaders:
And something else – this site isn’t just about a handful of guys’ PERSONAL “flaws and failures.” This site highlights major PATTERNS within Sovereign Grace Ministries, patterns of bad church polity and pastoral behavior set in place at the top that then trickle all the way down to the bottom.
You are happy where you are right now, and that’s great for you. But again – your positive SGM experience simply DOES NOT negate other people’s negative SGM experiences. And, if you ever have a major disagreement with one of your pastors or other “authorities,” you may be singing a VERY different song.
Finally, praying for pastors and discussing a ministry’s harmful trends are NOT mutually exclusive activities. There is a LOT of prayer going up from the folks who post here.
January 18th, 2009 at 12:25 am
Chris,
Also, thanks so much for giving us permission to respond to the posts you wrote here, on OUR blog. That was certainly big of you. :-)
January 18th, 2009 at 12:59 am
Chris said:
“The wonderful spirit of joy is apparent EVERYWHERE I go and with EVERYONE I talk to. Today I just came off of yet another PHENOMENAL men’s retreat where YET AGAIN I was convicted of sin, as were dozens of other men.”
In my Christian world, I don’t find joy in being convicted of sin. I mourn over my sin. What I find joy in is: fellowshipping intimately with God through Jesus Christ our Messiah. I find joy in learning about the depths of His riches. I rejoice over His resurrection, His power over death and sin. I rejoice over His love and His care for me. I rejoice over the fact that His blood has set me free from the Law of Sin and Death. I rejoice in the fact that I am a Child of God and a joint-heir with Jesus of the great and wonderful promises that await in the Heavenly Realm. I rejoice over my adoption into His family. I rejoice over the fact that though Adam’s sin was imputed to mankind, Jesus’ righteousness was imputed to me through faith. I am made righteous! Now THAT is something to rejoice about!
I sorrow over the sin committed against Noel and Grizzly’s family through the rape of their daughter and am horrified over the ungodly manner in which they were treated by your leaders and manner in which this serious crime was mishandled by them. This sorrow and horror extends to all those whom your pastors have so mistreated by their self-righteous puffed up abuse of power.
January 18th, 2009 at 1:03 am
Chris-
Please define what you mean by hearsay?
thanks-mm
January 18th, 2009 at 1:04 am
Wow, Remnant, that was really good!
January 18th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Chris,
OK, color me slow, but tell me if I understood what you have written….
First and formost, you are *staying* at your church because you’ve been blessed?
Are you fracking kidding me?
Noel’s child was violated in a most vile way and your precious leaders swept it under the rug?
But that’s ok because you’ve been blessed?
Noel has displayed anger and you’re throwing the big S word at her?
Hello? As my brothers and sisters have already noted, being angry isn’t a sin! If Noel wasn’t pissed off, I would wonder about her. Seriously.
But you’re blessed so we should all shut up. We shouldn’t ruin things for you, right?
After all, you had a nice men’s retreat. And what did you mention in your men’s retreat? Oh, yes, you got convicted of your sin. Wooooo-hooooooo good times.
This is what SGM leaders excel at; telling other people all about their sins root out that indwelling sin….good times.
You noted how dozens of men were convicted of their sin and somehow the credit is attributed to your humble leaders; have you ever witnessed any of these humble leaders lay their sins before you? Have they ever publicly confessed their personal sins? Or are their sins ever in the past tense?
Chris, I would suggest you do more than skim over Noel’s story. Freaking *read* it. All of it, all the way. It may rock your world, but that may not be such a bad thing after all.
If you are really brave, read the rest of our stories. Read Esther’s story. Read some of the things your humble leaders have done to your brothers and sisters.
January 18th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Chris said,
“Like these pastors, there is a tendency in my own heart to put grace over truth and gloss over serious sins.”
Gloss over serious sins such as child rape!? But not gloss over sins such as fear of man, pride, or some of the other nebulous SGM reasons for removing their pastors from their jobs!
He also said,
“Falling off the horse always requires the medicine of the gospel; just today the Lord revealed to me one reason I err on the side of grace too much, and the healing touch of the gospel will bring me closer to obedience. But I digress; My point is, the pastors are like me.”
With as little grace as most of us here have experienced in SGM, it is a frightening thought to me that this fellow believes he and his pastors are erring too much on the side of grace.
January 18th, 2009 at 11:03 am
” Your pastors have flaws and failures.”
That is true all men are sinners but what these men did was cover for a rapist. The took responsibliltiy for the “boy”. That makes them just as guilty of rape as the “boy”.
“Bear them up with prayer, that God may heal those sinful, wicked cravings and make them truly like Christ.”
These pastors should have been truly like Christ before they were ordained. Keep in mind the Great Commision. What were the Apostles told to do? Preach the gospel and make disciples, not sit in judgement over a rapist. That’s the job of the state.
January 18th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Chris,
Just in case you broke your blog/forum fast and are peeking in for responses…
I have it on very, reliable sources (within the leadership of your church), that a significant group of people have – or are in the process of – leaving your Jacksonville church over issues very parallel to those that have been brought forward on this blog.
You say:
“The *biggest* reason I stay with SGM, and one reason I tend to err on the side of sticking with the pastors and apostle-leaders is that God is CLEARLY on the move here in these churches. The wonderful spirit of joy is apparent EVERYWHERE I go and with EVERYONE I talk to.”
Maybe you should ask more folks in your own church if they like the direction that SGM is going and if longstanding members are comfortable with the mysterious process surrounding the replacement of your senior pastor a couple of years back.
Right within your relatively small church family there appears to be many folks who would have a hard time agreeing with the enthusiasm and glowing evaluation that you share in your post.
January 19th, 2009 at 12:58 am
DB, I applaud the force with which you remind us all that Noel’s anger is a just and righteous anger. I will state again for the record that it is not a sin to be angry. To elaborate; Isn’t it a mother’s instinct, no responsibilty (given to her by God) to protect and defend her children and to seek justice for her precious baby girl who was subjected to abuse and torture?? I am so proud of Noel for having the strength and the courage and the determination to stand up fight for what is right. It is NEVER too late to stand up the EVIL people of this world who hide behind the scriptures and manipulate and destroy the lives of both individuals and families who have a genuine heart-felt desire to do right.
To Chris I say; do you not have children of your own? If you had a daughter who was just 3 years old and innocent and full of life and saw her suffing day in and day out as she was tortured not once, but repeatedly, would you not have anger toward the person or persons that was responsible for inflicting upon her immense anguish and pain? How could you stand by and do NOTHING??????? So please do not preach about how it is a “sin” to be angry. If justice is not served here on Earth, there is a terrifying and vengeful wrath that will be brought down on the people who tried to wish it away by God himself. Do you really think that God gave us the scriptures so that the EVIL people of this world could twist and distort them so that they benefit?? In case you are not capable of answering this without first consulting the “leaders” your church … the answer is NO! God did not give us his word so that the good and honest and innocent people of this world could be enslaved and forced to follow out of shear fear of d##nation. If you have any questions, please let me know.
To those of you who have posted with encouraging words and support, it is so unbelievably refreshing to see that there are so many people who want justice. I know that the words of encouragement and support are appreciated. I know from experience that it is good to know that you are not alone in times like these. Please pray for Noel and her family. And please remember to pray for those that are still trapped in the destructive and deadly cult that is SGM … there is still hope for them. You are all in my prayers.
God Bless!
January 19th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Hey Noel and Griz
just finished reading through all these pages (wow there are a lot)
first i wanna say that i’m praying for you guys and also hope that God is blessing you as you have come out with this story.
i do want to ask though if you have contacted any of the pastors from the church that you were a part of and feel sinned against you? Honestly having never had anything this serious to deal with i don’t know how you feel but i do know that it has always been helpful for me to spend some time… (years in your case?) to think about what is/has happened and then try to contact the people who i think have sinned against me.
Being a SGMr i may be brainwashed or what ever but i really think its important to try as much as possible to talk personally with the people i’m involved with.
oh and i hope there wasn’t something i missed because honestly i skimmed for a while trying to catch up on the reading of the comments… so if this is like old advice or something i’m sorry.
January 19th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Hi, wsk, and welcome to the site. Thanks for your comment.
I can’t give you the definitive answer to your question, as I’m obviously not Noel or Grizzly, but I think the story they’ve shared would show that they DID deal with the pastors involved, for more than TWO YEARS, until they gave up and left their SG church.
What would be left for them to say to their pastors, if TWO YEARS of working with them only brought further misunderstanding?
I’ve heard this a lot from current SGMers – that Noel and Grizzly needed to talk with the pastors concerned – and I have a hard time understanding what good it would have done. Noel and Grizzly have stated many times that the whole reason why they’ve come forward with their story now is because they have reason to believe that the way they were treated (and the way the criminal in their case was treated) by their SGM pastors is still happening today. They are telling their story because they want the general public to understand what can happen in the most extreme of situations, when SGM remains hell-bent on trying to solve all problems by focusing on the possible “sins” of the person WITH the problem.
We see – from the stories coming out of the Chesapeake church, for instance, as told on Jim and Carole’s site – that SGM’s basic strategy for solving problems has changed little since Noel and Grizzly’s time. So they published their story because they want to warn people, and they also want SGM to know what harm their policies are doing.
This isn’t about a “personal” offense between Noel, Grizzly, and those pastors. That’s why I keep saying, over and over again, that this is NOT a “Matthew 18″ issue.
This is a case of gross misconduct that, as terrible as it was, merely illustrates deep trends within SGM, trends that continue to this day.
January 19th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Thanks for the welcome Kris
Yeah true like i said i don’t really have experience with issues with this wide of a scope but i just felt as i was reading that God was calling me to at least throw it out there and see what happened.
Out of curiosity though what would the “ideal” (nothing in this situation could be called ideal) course of action be? if this isn’t a personal offense what kind of offense is it and what can be done to reconcile the people of God?
January 19th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Kris, you’re so faithful to defend the survivors and to try to get it through folks’ “thick skulls” that it’s about the “trends.”
Thank you.
January 19th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
wsk,
You ask a good question.
First of all, the “ideal” situation would be for SGM to take a good hard look at themselves and explore whether the trends evident in Noel’s story continue to this day. Here are some questions that I came up with off the top of my head, taken from my letter to Mr. Sande:
I’m sure that the folks who’ve actually had bad SGM experiences could come up with even more questions for SGM leaders to ask themselves. But the idea would be – in the “ideal” scenario – for SGM to think about these things and fix what is wrong.
Then – ideally – they’d confess what they’ve done over the years, and they’d apologize to as many people as they possibly could. Then they’d REPENT of these controlling trends and STOP DOING THEM. They’d institute pastor training, if need be…they’d hold classes at all “local” churches to explain the changes…
And they’d foster a whole new culture of openness.
And see? NONE of this (except perhaps the apology part) has to actually involve Noel and Grizzly on a one-on-one, let’s all hug and sing “Cum By Yah” level.
January 19th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I agree with Kris when she says that the SGM pastors and leaders would need to confess to what they’ve done and apologize to the victims and ther families but I think that what really needs to happen is that the SGM leaders need to be brought down. They can apologize all they want, but if they are then left to walk away and continue on with their lives, then they are only going to turn around and subject other victims to their warped and twisted teachings and more and more innocent children and families will be abused and tormented. Something to think about
God Bless
January 27th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Dear Noel,
I have been sent links to this website a few times now by various caring friends and have not wanted to read any of it. I too am an sgm refugee. But that’s not what I’m here to write about today.
I am truly grieved by your story and even more grieved realizing that I think I was there at the church in Fairfax when this began. I have attended several SGM churches and been a member to 3. But no more. I knew nothing of your story. I left FCC shortly before Mark came. But more than that, I think you were my caregroup leader at one time – before the cg where this incident occurred and I do think you hated it. I think you loved to care for people but you hated having to perform care as prescribed by leaders. One size does not fit all for caregivers or those in need of care. I appreciate you and your husband’s care for me while I was in your neighborhood.
Please know that I remember you to be a very gracious and honest woman who loves God and her family and I believe every word of this posting. — and that makes it all the more sad.
I pray that God would surround you with loving people who know Him and respond to His leading who can love you and your family deeply and I pray that you experience His Grace in personal ways.
Peace and grace to you -
January 27th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
ikissedlegalismgoodbye,
Welcome. I know it will mean alot to Noel to read your words. Thank you for posting.
Blessings,
Kindred
January 28th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Kris -
Thank you for this blog. I was sent the link for sgm refuge and sgm survivor a few times by a few different friends. At first I glanced and then hessitated to read any more – not becuase I thought it was all gossip and slander, but because I know personally that it is not.
I am horrified at stories like Noel’s. I left my SGchurch several years ago as well. I was accussed of gossip and slander as were most people who had conversations with anyone other than the pastor.
Your blog helps people to understand that what is happening to them is absolutely wrong and crazy. The scariest thing to me was the secrecy and how the condemnation of gossip and slander is used to manipulate you and guilt you in to not getting help from anyone other than a pastor who could control whatever situation to their best interest.
Even though I’ve been out of SGM/PDI for a few years, your blog has helped me to see how much I am still affected and how I still carry some of the same false doctrines with me today. I thought I was doing well – finally.
However, clearly I need to continue to relearn what it is to know Grace – His Grace and His Grace alone.
Also, thank you for the links to the Exit Counselor and book information. I would never have thought that applied to me before – but it did and I found it to be very helpful and I am grateful.
It still hurts. With friends both screaming as the leave SG and old friends still in SG who can’t imagine why any of us ever left, it will continue to be gut wrenching.
I drank the Kool-Aid. Sometimes I still miss the Kool-Aid after all this time because I too made ‘community’ and idol and thought loyalty to leadership to seem like a duty rather than something, a love that God would place in my heart for Godly leaders.
It is not gossip to tell your own story.
I do not owe any pastor the right to rant at me verbally for hours without witnesses or with witnesses into the wee hours of the morning.
Being put under ‘observation’ for no specific ’sin’ is not normal, acceptable or even believable.
Before I go on and on -
Thank you again. I hope that many find refuge here and a point in the right direction towards grace.
January 29th, 2009 at 12:07 am
Finding Grace –
It takes a long time to process and work through any kind of abuse. It takes time not only to get over the pain of it, but also to get over the conditioning that leads us to believe the abuse was normal, or that it was somehow our fault, or that it didn’t really happen the way we perceived it. Personally I have found that telling my story to people who believe it and who recognize that the abuse I experienced was very far from normal has been a very important part of my recovery, and that is why blogs like this and sgmrefuge are so important.
As you say, telling your own story is not gossip. And I would add, telling a true story is never slander, even if it casts others involved in a poor light.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:22 am
Finding Grace,
I feel the pain as you share. Thank you for taking your time and working up the courage to come on here and introduce yourself. Thank you for sharing, too.
God bless,
Stunned
January 29th, 2009 at 8:15 am
Finding Grace -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site. I’m glad you’ve joined us, and I’m glad that you’ve found something helpful here. Leaving – and getting over it – DOES take time. And I believe that there’s no set formula for how MUCH time. There’s also no hard-and-fast process.
Some people leave, and it isn’t a very big deal for them. They move on quickly, find a new church, and do just fine. They chock their SGM experience up to…well, EXPERIENCE, and don’t feel a driving need to think about it very much.
Others leave, and outwardly it looks like it wasn’t a very big deal. They may look like they’ve quickly moved on. But inwardly, they are left scratching their heads, wondering what in the world just happened to them. Maybe even years later they still haven’t fully figured it out.
Still others leave and end up having a really hard time for one reason or another. Often this has to do with SGM’s issues, where the people who leave find themselves talked about (negatively) by their leaders, or where they end up losing all their SGM friendships. Sometimes, too, it has to do with how easily and quickly the leaving individuals find a new church and a new community to fill the gaping void left by SGM. Often, there can be confusion, as the “leaver” sorts through his Christian faith and figures out what part was just SGM, and what part is more lasting and real.
The process of leaving SGM doesn’t always look the same, and it doesn’t take some specified length of time.
“Finding,” I’m glad you’ve joined us, and at some point I hope you’ll share more of your own story.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Thanks for your encouragement and thank you again for the support that this blog provides.
To Chris (who is not likely reading here any longer) I will tell you that God is on the move. But God is faithful to be on the move in my life and in the life of any believer. He certainly desires to use the church. That’s becuase He is faithful – to each one of us who believes by grace alone, through faith alone – IN CHRIST ALONE. We need the church, but we need the church to bring us closer to God, not separate us from everything and everyone (even God?). God being on the move is no reason to justify covering up someone else’s or your own sin to preserve His reputation.
I am grateful for how God met me and moved in my life through Christians at work, in volunteer networks, and yes through my local PDI/SG church. That is certainly part of what made leaving so incredibly painful. I was very knit in. But shame on me for allowing the church to take precedent so much that friends at work, family, and other areas of my life gradually faded and took a back seat to busy-ness of self serving church activities.
People in the church craved being made caregroup leaders so they could be in the inner circle. What shame. And poor Noel and Grizzly to find that even though they were in the inner circle, however reluctantly, maybe they weren’t in close enough – becuase protecting someone closer was more important than doing the right thing.
A bit of advice to those in SG churches would be to take good care of all your relationships both in the church and family and yes even unbelievers outside the church and believers in other churches. Who knows what donkey God will use to speak to you in your time of need or what person will be the hand of mercy He brings into your life.
I am glad Chris had a good retreat and God moved to convict you of sin and brought joy. I had a similar experience last weekend talking to the lady at the checkout counter at Walgreens. In the end we were both convicted and encouraged. She now knows my name and I know hers.
God is faithful all the time. God is on the move – all the time. He is … I AM.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Welcome, “Finding Grace”!
I’m glad you’re here, I hope to get to “know” you better.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—— hugs