Since the first post entitled “Your Questions and Concerns” now has over 450 comments and is taking a long time to load for those with dial-up connections, here is a place for us to continue the discussion.
Also, in the “comments” section of “Dirty Little Secrets,” I posted this thought:
I’ve also come to believe, now, after our rather unfortunate interactions with an SGM Pastors’ College student, that SGM pastors are being taught to value doctrine above people, and to see themselves more as dispensers of God’s “tough love” rather than true shepherds.
Thoughts, anyone?
January 15th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Lynn,
I’m not even close to having it all put behind me. I think the more you internalize the abusive ideologies, the longer it takes to shake them.
I used to hear someone was a Christian and perk up. Now, when I hear someone’s a Christian or recognize one of the “hints” Christians drop, my heart kind of sinks … and I duck. Right or wrong, I don’t ever tell them anymore that I’m a Christian and here’s why: As long as they don’t know, they’ll be more restrained, thinking I might be one of those unbelievers who’s just pretty moral. But as soon as they know you’re a Christian, let the judging begin. They want to know what KIND of Christian you are:
home school or public school?
allow kids to date or not?
drink or abstain?
what age do you allow kids to watch pg-13 movies? rated r?
what kind of church do you go to? (SO many clues to be harvested there)
myspace or no myspace for kids?
and then my fav: you let your kids trick or treat??? (b/c, of course, the Bible is so clear on the efficacies of harvest parties over trick or treating …)
etc, etc.
And in the last couple places I’ve worked, the Christians are the biggest sticks in the mud. I just wouldn’t want to be associated with them. I’m not ashamed of Jesus, and I’ll let my light shine. But I’m very leery about opening my self up at all to Christians.
Of course, the past few months I think God is getting at that one. He’s brought several people into my life (one is one of my writers, another is one of my physical therapists) who I just came to love so much AND THEN found out they were Christians. In each of these cases, the people have turned out to be very cool.
But it is definitely just one of the struggles I’ve had to deal with post-SGM.
Then there’s my difficulty in studying the Bible. So many scriptures have been highlighted in my Bible from SGM days, and I don’t want to start w/ a clean Bible again where I can’t find anything. But I have notes all over it of scriptures that were given to me out of context and to fortify discipline processes that I have such misgivings about now. I read them now and feel so stupid and duped afresh.
Never mind what the words cross, accountability, local church, character, etc. do to me when I hear them. I believe in all of them, but I still cringe. It’s visceral.
What amazes me, Lynn, is the impact you’ve experienced from just the second-hand smoke. This woman really got to you and got inside your head. At the risk of judging, I think that’s the sense of elitism you were battling. I don’t remember all of your posts, but it sounds like you could just never measure up to her “higher,” more enlightened standards.
I’m so sorry. It’s disheartening. But, sadly, she’s only doing what’s been modeled for her. And she thinks she’s being a good example. Not an excuse at all … and it doesn’t diminish the impact. But hopefully you will one day be able to see you were spared by seeing and sensing what you did and staying out of the deep end of the pool.
January 16th, 2008 at 12:29 am
Hey Lynn,
I am glad you’re not going!!
Ya know, Cas, it’s not just Christians that have the corner on judging, I’ve seen all kinds of people judge and give their opinion on everything! I must just have that kind of face where people have the sense of obligation to tell me how much better something can be done…
Lynn, your friend might just be one of those kinds of people that would be judgmental wherever they are. But I know what you mean about the whole “word” thing. My kids go ballistic when they hear SG trigger words. :/
January 16th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Do you guys also struggle with certain authors? Like if someone from my new church mentions an author that was so highly exalted and had made the approved list, I immediately don’t want to have anything to do with that book. It is very possible that it is a great book, and I would benefit from reading it. But I just cringe and shy away. Kinda weird! Although one thing that has really helped me with this problem is simply reading all kinds of books that the Lord leads me to, which would probably have never made the SGM book list. I joined a book club with a bunch of ladies all from different churches, and one book that we recently read was”Blue Light Jazz..” That book brought so much healing to me, but just being with a bunch of ladies from different churches and no one harping on one another’s sins or making “observations” was so refreshing.
I kinda feel like the healing process is this huge heart journey, and it can actually kinda be exciting and fun.Once you recognize the truth of what really happened, you will slowly begin to be set free. It is like running through a spring meadow of wild flowers and realizing that the whole lots is yours to pick and choose, rather than being handed the same dyed pink carnation that everyone is handed and expected to cherish. The other thing that has helped me is embracing and loving people from all walks of life, not just folks from my local church. One of my best friends is Mormon, another is Atheist, and a third is a New Ager. And I love them all so much! I have grown closer to Christ through my friendships with them, than I ever did in the 9 years we were at SGM. And I haven’t felt any pressure to show them a better SGM way, that I always felt before. By just loving them, God is doing all the work. My Mormon friend just joined me for a Bible study today for the first time. That would have never happened at my SGM church. She would have just heard more about working hard to be a better wife and mother, which she already hears at her Mormon church. I guess I don’t feel any pressure to try and convert people to my way of thinking. I am so free to just love them, and let God work on their hearts. They have their own heart journey, complete with any of their own baggage. I guess what I am saying is that by just learning to let the love of Jesus flow through me to others, without any agenda or mission, I am being healed. It is the strangest thing! Does any of that make sense?
Lynn and SGM Casuality,
By opening my heart up to new people, places and things God has done a mighty work of healing. I know that I haven’t had the abuse that may have had, but I also know that even if I had, only Jesus could heal me heart. And He is quite free to use whatever books, counselors, friends, and even medications it may take to complete the job. Because He came to set the captives free and heal our broken hearts.
And I honestly believe this blog is part of that process for many. By each of you helping the other, you are one step closer to complete healing. I will miss reading your wonderful insight, Lynn. Blessings to you!!!
January 16th, 2008 at 4:44 am
Freeda,
I hear you on the book thing!! I also have had the same reaction to speakers some ladies in the church I am visiting are crazy about.
I like your analogy about the spring flowers and the dyed pink carnation!!
That is so neat about your new friends!!
January 16th, 2008 at 6:29 am
Thank you ladies for your great comments. I know it’s going to take time — I mean it’s only been 6 days since I found a place where other people feel the same way about this stuff. I’m sure that’s the important first step.
So I’m just praying that God will re-program the tapes in my head.
SGM Cas,
Yes, there was certainly a smug-ness about this gal and the feeling that it was not OK to “agree to disagree” if I truly wanted to walk in sound doctrine, yada, yada. So when that’s being held out as the incentive for believing their version of things, it can be a pretty powerful.
I think knowing the history of CJ, PDI, ect., helps because it kind of untangles the whole thing for me, helps me to see how much of this is a man-based movement.
Where, again, is that link to the history? I remember scanning it briefly, but I can’t remember where it is.
Thanks so much ladies!
January 16th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Steve 240 post #129 Thanks.
But what on earth can you do when the PASTORS support ,contribute to and encourage a ‘church abuse’ environment ? Do you see the connection and dilemma ?
You don’t have to be a victim of DV in a marraige . You can see it if you were a kid raised in it. You can see it if you have a abusive boss and dysfunctional workplace. You can see it if you are in sports and have a abusive coach or are a kid and continually bullied on a schoolbus or live in Cuba.
Hmm. studying psychology and forensics has helped me. Try a book “Snakes in Suits” ouch. Wierd how the average church attendee has to go to those lengths to feel safe. In all seriousness I think many people could benefit from psych evals before entering and staying in ministry. Oh yea but were all broken people,thats right.
January 16th, 2008 at 7:04 am
Freeda,
I love your spring meadow analogy. And I do know what you mean about not feeling any pressure to convert people to my way of thinking. While Jesus is still the only way to God, the roads that leads people to Jesus are very different. And I’ve come to appreciate where people are on their journey to Christ.
In another post, I mention a “para-church” retreat organization I’m a part of…we’re…hang on to your hat…”ecumenical”…gasp! Horrors! [Can I still post here?!?]
SGM Cas,
I know what you mean about not really wanting to say you’re a Christian, even though you’re not ashamed. I work in an anti-Christian environment. They’re looking for any reason to say, “Ah-ha! See, she’s no different than us.” BTW, despite my frequent typos, I’m an editor, as well. And looking for a new job…a place with happier people…hehehe!
Meeting Christians from different background has been very refreshing , teaching me to look past minor, unimportant details and to focus on our love for the Lord. [Incidentally, it's also how I met two families and a single gal who have recently left SG churches.]
January 16th, 2008 at 7:06 am
Somehow the order of that last post got messed up; it should have gone like this:
In another post, I mention a “para-church” retreat organization I’m a part of…we’re…hang on to your hat…”ecumenical”…gasp! Horrors! [Can I still post here?!?]
Meeting Christians from different background has been very refreshing , teaching me to look past minor, unimportant details and to focus on our love for the Lord. [Incidentally, it’s also how I met two families and a single gal who have recently left SG churches.]
January 16th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Lynn,
Ha! Another editor in our midst! I can totally tell.
This is an edit-free zone though. Sometimes the posting is so fast and furious, I just don’t take the time to go back through my posts and rake through them for typos and comma splices. I’ve taken a more stream of consciousness approach with the blog (really fancy way of saying too lazy to edit and too verbose to keep them to an easily editable length.
)
Man, I wish you could work where I do! It’s a total blast! I work for a publishing company that puts out all graphic design resources. So I basically get paid to play with really cool tutorials on a Mac all day and clean up the writing. (Ya know … add panache and structure.) But I’m transitioning out of editorial next month and will be doing all search engine optimization/marketing stuff, which will also be fun. And the owners of the company are all Christian (really cool Christians!), so it’s a super family-friendly place to work. As a single mother especially, God couldn’t have put me in a better place!
If you pick up some multimedia skills, you can transition into some pretty fun editorial jobs. That’s what I did b/c I felt like I wasn’t getting challenged by just writing and correcting others’ writing anymore.
Anyway, feel free to email anytime (sgmcasualty (at) gmail.com).
And I couldn’t agree more w/ everyone’s comments! Freeda, the flower analogy was choice! Yes, Sovereign Grace Ministries is definitely insular and has found a lot of protection in that.
Similarly, you don’t find abusive families typically opening themselves too much to outsiders who could start poking their nose around. Been there on both accounts. Very similar modus operandi.
January 16th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Kris,
I found the history post.
L
January 16th, 2008 at 9:18 am
BTW Kris — I found the post by typing “history of People of Destiny PDI” into the google bar — and the post was like number 3. Very interesting that this information is becoming more accessible to those looking!
January 16th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Wow, ladies…
You all shared many great thoughts.
The funny thing about this is that as I read through everybody’s posts, I realized I am still having reactions to two things. One would be the “approved authors.” Another would be the phrase, “sound doctrine.”
If I hear someone quote admiringly from one of John Piper’s books, I am immediately suspicious of them…which I know is crazy. Likewise, if I hear someone talk about having sound doctrine.
SGM Casualty – I totally know what you mean about the judging that goes on with “which kind of Christian are you?” This might sound terrible, but my sister and I were talking the other day about how we’re both discovering that it’s almost easier to become friendly with non-Christians. Because, they do not labor under as many preconceived notions of what they’re SUPPOSED to be like. They just let it all hang out, and it’s easier to get to know them – their feelings, their opinions.
I’m NOT talking about forging deep, close friendships…I don’t have that many really close friends in the first place, and those that ARE really close to me all do share my faith. I’m talking about the “getting acquainted” stage of friendship. In my opinion, non-Christians are a lot easier to get to know, because they’re not attempting to model themselves after Mrs. Christianality. They tend to just SHOW who they are, rather than affecting the opinions that they think they should be having. If that makes sense.
And Freeda…that’s a great analogy, about the field and the flowers!
Also, SGM Casualty, can I offer up an “observation”? :-) If I were you, I’d just go out and get a brand-spanking-new Bible! You can still consult your old marked-up one when you need to. But it’s a new day, you’re a different person, and you probably would do well to move on from those old markings and margin notes. God has new things to say to you. So in my opinion, you should just start fresh.
January 16th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Ya know, Kris, I think you’re right. I’ve kind of been at an impasse with it ever since leaving SGM. It’s probably not the best “hill to die on.” Sigh. Thank you for helping me come to the conclusion I’ve been avoiding for years now.
January 16th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Hey Lynn,
One of the other place I received healing 6 months after we left SGM was an Antioch Orthodox Church. I joined a ladies group doing a book study on friendship. It was so powerful, and I actually loved the lighting of the candle that we did at the beginning and the picture that they had representing the Trinity and the relationship of the three-headship. I used to be so negative and freaked about icons and things like that, but once I went to this study, and I saw the heart of the ministry at this particular church, my views were completely changed. Now I am not going to that church and it is not where the Lord led our family, but I fell in love with ladies there and am much more open minded about what the Lord is doing through the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. And I still have good friends that go to that church, and I will probably go and visit at Christmas or Easter, because is asthetically a deeply spritual experience for me personally….not for everyone. My husband and I were married in the Catholic Church, and I can honestly say that some of the priest that we encountered were much more loving, humble, compassionate and understanding than any pastor we came across in SGM. I was brought up in a Protestant denominational church, and never remember our pastors saying anything bad about the Catholic church. But while we were at SGM, I got the feeling that many of the leaders and members didn’t even consider them Christian. Some of the teens at SGM even started a forum where they were questioning whether Catholics were Christian in one of their blogs.I was just disgusted with that way of thinking! I am so done with a group that thinks they can or have the right to judge another’s salvation based on dogmatic group thinking. We actually have a girl renting an apartment from us who was a former Muslim, and she converted to Christianity two years ago. Anyway, we have learned so much from her and the journey that God took her through in escaping her homeland in terror from the hands of supposedly Christians. And how she learned about forgiveness and the love of Christ, has been another step to our healing process. God is using all kinds of ways to show us His love for us and others and thus continues the process of our healing. His love is the healing balm that our hearts need, and it is the thing that will prayerfully allow the leadership at SGM to finally see that somewhere along the line, the ship got off course. But it is not too late for them also to get back on course, and the day that happens we will finally see the true definition of “humility.” And then any who have been hurt, including themselves will be totally set free.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Hey, SGMCasualty,
A friend just gave me a new Amplified translation Bible, and I love it. You might want to check it out. I still have my old marked up NIV from before SGM switched to the ESV, but I love reading the Amplified. It is really refreshing for me. And my teens love the Message Bible. Before you spend the money, you might do a verse comparison on Bible.com. But the key is having the freedom to read whatever translation you choose, and when you choose. And try reading it as a really amazing love letter, rather than ” I need to do my devotions”…check!
January 16th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Sorry for taking so long to respond, I just to had to finish my Sovereign Grace required essay, entitled “Ways To Avoid Girls Until Courtship” :-)…
SGM Cas,
Lol that’s so funny cause the thing I remember most about him was one night when I was doing childcare in the gym and all he wanted to do the whole night was have me help him “dunk” on the lower hoop…it was fun.
Kris,
Ok that helps. After Joey’s comment about his heart being inclined towards wickedness, it seemed like you guys (and I’m generalizing here) got on him about being obsessed w/ sin and “leaving Christ on the cross” w/e that means. My only thought was “wow, ‘heart inclined towards wickedness’ isn’t nearly as harsh a self-evaluation as ‘chief of sinners’ what would they say to Paul”? But I can understand if you feel like there was no balance in your SG church.
Steve,
I would agree except that Paul was obviously talking about his present state, not his past state. He didn’t say “of whom I was the worst” he said “of whom I am the worst.” (hey maybe I should be an editor :-) So while with the passages you cited, and Paul was obviously grounded concerning his past, I don’t think his comments (at least not this one) were speaking simply of his pre-conversion days.
January 16th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
sorry, that last paragraph should say “so while I agree w/ the passages you cite”…well that editior dream was probably the most short-lived dream of my life.
January 16th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Wish I could write more; Army documents won’t wait, dang it!
Freeda,
Great post. The experience you describe at Antioch church sounds like the retreat organization I’m a part of. I, too, am a “plain and simple” kinda gal when it comes to religious symbols, icons, etc., but what I know exactly what you mean about the “heart of the ministry.”
I think time is all it will take to get rid of those knee-jerk reactions to all things SG.
Thankfully I’m in a great church, with a balanced pastor who I can go to and bounce questions off of. He said he’s talked to Muslims — who have never been taught about Jesus — having visions of Him and accepting salvation that way. Point being, while Jesus is the only way to God, Jesus can find anyone on any road, so we shouldn’t be so hung up on conforming people to our brand of Christianity. I think we’re all guilty of that from time to time. There’s nothing so “humbling” (agggghhhh!) as having a non-Christian (or a Christian who I thought wasn’t “like me”) display a more Christ-like nature than myself!!
Joey,
I’m probably echoing other comments to say that Paul’s admission of him being the chief of all sinners is only one side of the coin. Paul did NOT walk around gazing at his navel and questioning his motives the live-long day. I dare say he never would have gotten anything done.
And it’s that balance that’s lacking in the SG folks we know.
My friend INSISTED that she could do NO good on her own, but yet she took full responsibility for her sin–she had a choice in that. That’s something I couldn’t grasp — and it seemed so artificial — why was she not able to take ANY credit for doing good, but all her evil was her doing? Trying to have a coherent talk with her about that was maddening.
That may seem off track, but it relates to this constant need of SG-ers to remind themselves and others that they’re so, so wicked.
January 16th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Actually — I meant to say “Lawrence” not “Joey” — sorry!
January 16th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Lawrence said:
“I would agree except that Paul was obviously talking about his present state, not his past state. He didn’t say “of whom I was the worst” he said “of whom I am the worst.”
Hopefully we aren’t getting off on too much of a tangent here.
Interesting point you make. Since the passage we are discussing was originally written in Greek and nuances such as this can be lost in translation, it might take someone versed in Greek to tell us what they think Paul’s original intent was. With this in mind, I am not so sure it is “obvious.” Though I have learned to use various bible study helps including those that help with the Greek I have no training in Greek.
Hopefully I am taking a Berean approach to try and see what the original intent was. I looked at a number of translations of this verse and most used the word “I am” as you mentioned. Note that since Paul didn’t say “I am STILL the worst” Thus his meaning isn’t necessarily that “obvious.”
Here are some other versions of the same passage that might help:
“I am the worst of them.” Holman Christian Standard
ESV uses the word “of whom I am the foremost.” KJV uses “of whom I am chief.”
Are you saying Paul when he wrote I Timothy was still the “foremost” of sinners after his conversion or did he call himself this due to what he did prior to his conversion? I would seriously doubt the former. Wouldn’t that be saying he was still sinning with no change or repentance? I would hope that in light of what Paul said in other Scriptures that the grace of God would have transformed Paul after his conversion so that he didn’t continue to be the “foremost” of sinners.
Also, doesn’t this same verse of scripture refer to saving Paul?