My sister is a regular reader of the site, and the other day, she made a comment that really got me to thinking. She said,
“Some of these Sovereign Grace defenders sound so passionate, emotional, and almost IRRATIONAL about the perceived attacks on their church that it seems like they think people are attacking Christ. It’s almost as though their CHURCH has become so entangled in their thinking with Jesus and their entire Christian faith that they can hardly distinguish the difference between them!”
At first blush, I didn’t think my sister was right. After all, I could already hear my Sovereign Grace friends practically shouting at me, “Sovereign Grace Ministries is about the GOSPEL!”
But then I got to thinking about it, and I sort of wonder if maybe my sister is onto something.
First of all, I’ve never yet encountered a Sovereign Grace person who did not believe that his church was simply the the only church for him. In fact, that was an early red flag for us, when we’d constantly hear people saying, “I’d never live ANYWHERE where there wasn’t a Sovereign Grace church!” I can remember sitting there in our Care group, listening to someone give her testimony, and as I heard that same phrase come tumbling out of this lady’s mouth, expressing her utter loyalty to all things Sovereign Grace, I couldn’t help but wonder if she didn’t somehow believe that no other church quite “got it right.”
I realize, of course, that there’s nothing wrong with feeling (and expressing) strong loyalty to one’s church. It’s somewhat normal for people to believe that wherever they’ve chosen to worship and put down roots is the best thing going, and that THEIR church does the best job of “working out” the Christian faith.
But being the questioning type of person that I am, I’d imagine what would happen if one of these fervent “Sovereign Grace Only!” types were to be offered the opportunity of a lifetime – a fantastic job, perhaps, or a chance to have a much simpler and happier life, moving closer to family, for instance – but the only “catch” was, the opportunity involved living in a town nowhere near a Sovereign Grace church.
How many of these people would automatically decide, then, that the opportunity simply could not be God’s will for them?
I don’t know the answer to that question, of course, but I do have my strong suspicions. After all, what does it mean if you say over and over again, “I’d never live ANYWHERE where there wasn’t a Sovereign Grace church”? Don’t you pretty much mean exactly what you’re saying, that somehow, God would never lead you to a location where you’d have to attend a non-Sovereign Grace church?
And what is at the root of such fervent exclusivity?
Doesn’t this passion for Sovereign Grace Ministries exceed normal or typical devotion to a particular way of “doing church”? Isn’t there contained within these kinds of statements an implied superiority to other expressions of Christianity?
And could this possibly be right? Could this possibly be the way that the Lord intends for us to think?
Could God possibly want a very small group of Christians to believe that their little “family of churches” is the only one that “gets it right”?
I don’t think so.
But even stranger than the Sovereign Grace folks’ defensive reactions to perceived criticism, and even more troublesome than their attitudes of exclusivity about their church, is the statement that many Sovereign Grace people have made whenever anyone points out their church’s cultural oddities.
What do they say when people assert that SGM’s focuses on homeschooling and courtship, for instance, are a little odd or out of balance? Or that perhaps the “accountability relationships” are too intrusive? Or that their church discipline process is too harsh and does not reflect true grace?
They reply, “Well, Sovereign Grace isn’t for everyone!”
These two beliefs – the belief that Sovereign Grace is the only church that gets it right, and the belief that Sovereign Grace isn’t for everyone – make REALLY strange bedfellows!
Sovereign Grace people are talking out of both sides of their mouths. Out of one side, they’re saying that they are part of the BEST church. But out of the other side, they’re quick to say that this BEST church is not for everyone.
Apparently, it’s only for the “special” people…the ones who can deal with all the extra requirements, the heightened focus on “rooting out sin,” the more intense “accountability” relationships, the unquestioning submission to authority.
What sort of “Gospel” is this, anyway?
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
January 18th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Dennis, if you have clarity about house churches that’s great, but many of the discernment sites caution on the emergent trends that infiltrate house churches. The New Wine stuff is a rehash of 1980′s glory cloud stuff. Been there done that. China has some that border on cultic practices. Some of the links that I see from house church web sites are a mess, liberal protestantism and new age junk. Or they sway to the extreme of the proverbial subjective experience over the objective written word.
I just don’t want to see people jump from the fire into the frying pan as I have definately done that.
Pslam 138:2….” for You have magnified Your word above all Your name. “We must remember the scripture isn’t all about us it’s about Jesus..
If there are decent house churches out there where people can go to heal thats great but it being a long haul option in this country I hope not. I still have hope that God will straighten out those leaders who are truly called and spend 24/7 in Gods word to bring us into the next two decades. And yes they deserve a paycheck and our honor up to a point.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Hey, what’s up ya’ll…
wow there was a lot of stuff in these comments…thanks for the shoutout SGM Casualty!! :-)…
Anyways I almost know what your guys’s defense is going to be, and since w/ some of you it will be a valid defense (which makes this a…I don’t know…friendly point? Not an accusation in the classic sense)…anyways it just seems like when Sov. Grace aren’t judgmental jerks, you guys resort to accusing them (us?) of “false humility” “insecurity” etc. etc. I mean, isn’t it possible that it’s not false humility? Or even a result of Sov. Gracisms being yammed into them (us?) until they (we) are a bunch of robotic clones? Maybe they (we?) really are just keeping it real? I know a lot of very famous men who had much lower opinions of themselves then some of the posters here who are full of false humility (Charles Spurgeon, Isaac Watts and Martin Luther come to mind.)
Peace
January 18th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
wow I just read my last post and it’s official, I’m terrible at writing (false humility alert)…I need to borrow Kris and SGMCas writing skills…hopefully you guys read past the writing and see the point :-)
January 18th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Lawrence,
Your “false humility alert” made me smile. That’s a good one! :-)
I do hear your point about how we can make it seem like SGM folks can’t win. I personally don’t have a problem with people who make self-deprecating remarks, especially when these remarks are accompanied by other fruits of humility, such as NOT seeming overly focused on oneself.
I guess for me, that’s the key…does the “self-deprecation” end up drawing more attention to oneself, or less?
Also, sometimes if a phrase like “my own sinfulness” gets interjected into almost everything a person says, it can start to sound like just another meaningless cliche, you know? (I’m not saying that I’ve witnessed anyone doing that here, but it IS something that can start to have a hollow ring to it after awhile.)
Anyway, I think you make a good point. I’d like to urge all of us to spend less time judging each other’s words for motives that only the Lord can rightly assess.
January 18th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Hi Donna,
The churches in the NT met in people’s homes. That’s all I was trying to communicate. Yes, any group can become cultic. True house churches are all independant and self contained. I do not belong to a “family of house churches”.
This topic is probably not relevant to this SG focused web. So that is all I will say about house churches. But I do understand your concern. Thank you.
January 18th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Hi Lawrence,
You’re doing just fine in your posts! Remember? This is a edit-free zone. If it weren’t, my job would surely be at stake!
Besides, my face brightens every time I see your name pop up. But I always thought you were an off-the-charts awesome kid, so I”m terribly biased. You could probably write just about anything, and I’d say, “Awww … I LOVE that guy!” … But don’t test me on that. ;)
Did I tell you that you’re even in one of our family photo albums? I had to get pictures of my son, and since he spent 6 mos basically attached to your hip, it was somewhat inevitable really.
That being said, I think it’s important to note the differing contexts for the false humility comments and concerns of unrighteous/unfair judgment. If you just cherry pick these references outside of the context of a particular comment, it could seem like we’re just saying Sovereign Grace Ministries is damned if they do, damned if they don’t. And that’s not what we’re saying … although I can certainly understand how someone might get that impression, given the fact that so many criticisms/concerns are condensed into one tiny microcosm.
And if I have come across like that, please know that I don’t believe that those in Sovereign Grace leadership are either judgmental jerks or pretentious in their attempts at humility. In fact, I noted on more than one occasion that I saw genuine humility on many occasions by leadership in my 12 years with the ministry. I’ve also gone into detail about how I saw that humility exemplified by specific leaders, even naming some. (But that was long before your first post here, so you might not have read it. And good luck finding them in my long procession of posts!)
I even saw genuine humility in the debated YouTube clip of CJ talking about the humility that should mark Sovereign Grace. I heard out others’ concerns and could understand how they arrived at their conclusions. And though I, too, hesitated in voicing an opinion that went a little one against the wind, I was free to state my unique evaluation of CJ’s intent in this blog without fear of reprisal or mud slinging.
Funny thing is it did give me a heightened appreciation of how difficult it must be for someone with strong Sovereign Grace loyalties to post dissenting opinions. I felt “a little nervous” myself speaking out that day. But hopefully, with some of the new guidelines Kris has set up, it will be even easier to ensure open, honest, but gracious communication among those who may disagree over particular points being bandied about.
As far as the false humility goes, I’m sure I’m as guilty as the next guy (although i usually just go for full-blown arrogance as my sin du jour
). I’m not sure what specific examples you’ve seen of posters demonstrating false humility. But at the end of the day, really only God can ferret out the wheat from the chaff. And, at the risk of sounding like I’m just oozing out the pores with false humility, I’m sure I’ve had my fair share of posts that make God go, “Bleh! Closssse but … notttt so much, honey.”
Also, as hard as it may be to believe, since coming to this blog, my heart has softened significantly toward SGM leadership that I was, at one time, so embittered against. I reported early on that there were times I’d get fired up about something and start to post a more railing thesis, just to find my perspective mollify midstream! I’m sure it must have looked like my meds kicked in mid-post with some of those earlier posts.
In fact, a close friend of mine, who told me about this blog, teased me after I had been here a couple weeks that she said to her husband one day, “Honey, [My name] actually sounds healthy!” and laughed hysterically. My response: “I know, right??? How weird is THAT???”
She knew that I could hardly even talk about Sovereign Grace Ministries without choking on my words for a long time, and it was – for the most part – an aspect of both of our lives we decided just not to visit very often at all.
Oh, and just for the record, I’m not actually on meds! That was only a joke. Repeat: That was ONLY a joke. heh heh …
Take care, Lawrence, and feel free to post here any time!
January 18th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
Lawrence -
As the Sheriff here, I think you’re awesome…please feel free to come back and post your thoughts.
Regardless of what you may have heard about me, I’m really a nice guy!
January 18th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
guy behind said:
“Lawrence -
As the Sheriff here, I think you’re awesome…please feel free to come back and post your thoughts.
Regardless of what you may have heard about me, I’m really a nice guy!”
Lawrence
Any more comments on I Tim 1:15 we were talking about? I posted a response and never heard anything back to my knowledge.
January 20th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Hey Steve,
I thought I had answered you, apparently not though. Maybe I didn’t post it after I typed it…
Anyways I totally see what you’re saying in reference to the other scriptures, but I don’ totally buy into the theory that Paul was talking about his pre-conversion sins…it seems to me, at least in the actual passage I referenced (not the other passages you brought up), based on the tense that he was talking in (in this case, present not past) that he was talking about his current state of sinfulness. “Of whom I AM the worst” not “of whom I WAS the worst”…
Thoughts?
January 20th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Lawrence,
I’m not Steve, but I did have a thought about your comment.
Sometimes I think that the Christian life is nothing but a tightrope walk. God asks us to walk a fine, thin line, and on each side are truths that seem to contradict each other.
For instance, God is sovereign……BUT, He also calls us to take action. And throughout all of Scripture, He seems to have given humans at least some measure of ability to control their actions, even to the point of defying Him in sin.
Also, God is a God of love……..BUT, Got will also come to judge us and show His righteous wrath.
I could probably list a hundred of these seeming paradoxes.
Another paradox is about us, God’s children.
We are sinners……….BUT, we are also saints. We have a sin nature……..BUT, we also have a new nature through Christ Jesus.
I guess in my thinking, the problems arise when we fall off the tightrope and focus too much on one of these truths at the expense of the other.
Paul may have said that he is the worst of sinners…but then he always addressed his epistles to the SAINTS at Ephesus, NOT the “sinners” of Ephesus. I think that this is a huge indicator of how we are supposed to view ourselves.
January 21st, 2008 at 10:11 am
Lawrence
This is what I posted before under another topic.
Lawrence said:
“I would agree except that Paul was obviously talking about his present state, not his past state. He didn’t say “of whom I was the worst” he said “of whom I am the worst.”
Hopefully we aren’t getting off on too much of a tangent here.
Interesting point you make. Since the passage we are discussing was originally written in Greek and nuances such as this can be lost in translation, it might take someone versed in Greek to tell us what they think Paul’s original intent was. With this in mind, I am not so sure it is “obvious.” Though I have learned to use various bible study helps including those that help with the Greek I have no training in Greek.
Hopefully I am taking a Berean approach to try and see what the original intent was. I looked at a number of translations of this verse and most used the word “I am” as you mentioned. Note that since Paul didn’t say “I am STILL the worst” thus his meaning isn’t necessarily “obvious.”
Here are some other versions of the same passage that might help:
“I am the worst of them.” Holman Christian Standard
ESV uses the word “of whom I am the foremost.” KJV uses “of whom I am chief.”
Are you saying Paul when he wrote I Timothy was still the “foremost” of sinners after his conversion or did he call himself this due to what he did prior to his conversion? I would seriously doubt the former. Wouldn’t that be saying he was still sinning with no change or repentance? I would hope that in light of what Paul said in other Scriptures that the grace of God would have transformed Paul after his conversion so that he didn’t continue to be the “foremost” of sinners.
Here is some more to add to that previous comment.
Here are a few Greek lexicon definitions of the word translated “chief” or “foremost”
denotes “the first,” whether in time or place. It is translated “chief”; in 1 Tim 1:15-16, of a sinner.
(from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)
first in rank, influence, honor; chief; principal: without the article, and absolutely, prootos chief (opposed to doulos),
(from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
I would also suggest you look at the context of I Tim 1:15. Vs 12-14 where he talked about his previous life etc. Vs. 16 also uses that same Greek word when he talks about his transformation and his being the worst of sinner.
Hope this helps.
January 28th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
“If one is zealously defending the view that it’s a woman’s duty to unquestioningly submit to everything that her husband demands of her, it doesn’t take too much imagination to see how abuse could creep in…and even seem to be supported theologically.”
Hi Kris,
What you wrote here about “unquestioningly submitting” hit the spot in my life. As I mentioned before, I’m not with SGM, but GCx, a very similar church.
I’ve been very submissive all my life- to a fault.
Am learning that one way to serve and love my husband is by being assertive and bold.
I hate it and it doesn’t come naturally, but it is a way to serve him and his naturally narcissitic personality.
Yes, we made quite a pair
But are learning how two messed up people, married over 20 years, can somehow learn to be healthy happy people.
Thankful for His grace!!
February 1st, 2008 at 12:25 pm
As someone who grew up in SGM churches almost her whole life (the church my family attended when I was little was very similar, despite not being officially affiliated), I can say with a whoooole lot of certainty that yes, even if offered the opportunity of a lifetime, they will turn it down in favor of an SGM church. When we first went to CLC, it was on a year long temporary duty assignment my dad had with his work. My parents became deeply entrenched in the church, very quickly, to the point that when we moved back to CO at the end of that year they had the house on the market in less than a month so we could move back to MD to continue at the church. My dad didn’t even have a job lined up. He just said that, after the friendships he’d made and advice he’d received, he felt that was where God was calling him. It didn’t matter that I had roots or friends or had never left the state before that TDA… We packed up and left before the house was even sold.
My dad planned our vacations around SGM churches. If there wasn’t one within a twenty minutes drive, we would be forced to pick a different vacation spot. My friends made their college choices based on SGM locations. MAJOR job opportunites were turned down because it would disrupt someone’s “calling”. (Especially living in the DC metropolitan area, many many members worked in government positions, my dad including. Foreign service opportunities and huge advancements frequently came up for my dad and other friends’ parents, but they turned them down. One gentleman was highly, highly praised because he had been serving as the executive secretary of international health and human services but resigned in order to not leave the area and church so much.)
…I ramble. This whole topic is so sensitive for me, and I’ve never had a chance to speak out before for fear I was exaggerating my experiences! Once I started to make connections outside SGM, everyone I told stories to thought I was a pathological liar.
Attending the actual founding church made it a lot worse, as far as I’ve been able to tell. My cousins attended the Atlanta church (their dad, my uncle, is the senior pastor, and Larry Tomzcak is my aunt’s brother… my uncle-in-law?), my grandparents attended the Orlando church, my other set of cousins attended the foundational church in Highlands Ranch, CO, so I heard a lot of opinions about SGM from more than just my home church. From all I can gather, CLC itself is the most stringent church in the ministry. Perhaps it should be figured, seeing as it’s the home church and pastored by Josh Harris and all, but, meh. Every aspect of my life, from movies to offhand comments to books read to events attended to emotions displayed! were subject to immense church scrutiny. I got into huge trouble for getting a henna tattoo at the MD Renaissance Faire because it was a “sign of witchcraft”. (For that matter, I was in trouble for going to the Faire in the first place because of all the immodesty and debauchery it “celebrated”.)
That’s my additional two cents for the moment. ^.^ I’m slowly trying to read through this blog and get more excited with each post… It’s a little difficult at the moment because the program I’m in is eleven hours a day seven days a week, which leaves very little ‘me’ time.
February 1st, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I must admit Tina’s comments are a sticky topic for me also. As I have done many of the same things for the “sake of the kingdom”,yet I remain unmarried and a low income wage earner. Forsaking all for Christ sometimes is hard to interpret. But you can bet that in high demand groups as long as you submit to leadership in these matters you will be sure to be elevated and find favor. My question, is it really God who is doing it? If it is abuse why is God allowing it to be done in His name.?
I must admit I have been very angry with Him about this at times as it still confuses me.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:55 pm
Sonya -
I’ve got to be honest… At this point in my life, I am seriously questioning the existence of God. PLEASE, no one launch into me with encouragement to read the Bible or pray or anything… I have been in the church all my life, the teachings are not unfamiliar to me. Nonetheless, after the abuse I’ve suffered, I am truly having a difficult time believing in God – or at least, in the God SGM has told me exists.
So many atrocities have taken place throughout history, in the name of Christ. The crusades, puritan witch hunts, David Koresh’s cult, modern abuse of gays and lesbians, the conquistadors to name just a few. It’s really hard for me to believe that if there is a God he would be so selective in his salvation or would put up with so much blasphemous actions.
I know that many people reading this blog are still Christians, and I am really glad you’ve been able to keep your faith after SGM. I still believe spirituality is a very important thing, and if Christianity can provide you with a solid religious groundwork and positive life code, stick with it.
All I can say is that, for me, I know it is not the right answer. Maybe these views will change in time, but right now, I can’t walk into a church without getting a panic attack.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Post Script:
Again, I would request that please, respect my disagreement wjth Christianity as you hope SGM members will respect yours to their churches! I really don’t want to start an argument or anything, merely explain myself a little better.
February 2nd, 2008 at 12:31 am
Tina,
I’m not sure how much you’ve caught of my random comments here and there where I’ve shared our own SGM experience. To sum it up briefly – we didn’t really have a bad experience with Sovereign Grace. We were in our SG church for less than a year, during which time we were embraced by a whole crowd of “instant friends” and shown a lot of love and acceptance. We thought the world of our pastors. They, too, were nothing but kind to us.
But…all along, I just had these nagging feelings I could not shake that something was not right – at least, not right for US. I just couldn’t see us fitting into the SGM culture very well. I desperately WANTED this to be “the” church. That’s the funny thing.
During this time, I kept on searching for information online about SGM. I kept thinking, “Certainly, if we’re not crazy about what we’re sensing, somebody out there has written something about it.” But I could never find anything. I became a regular reader of some of what I called “SGM Happy” blogs, written by beautiful women with perfect Pottery Barn houses, gorgeous children, and husbands who stepped straight out of an Abercrombie poster. But eventually my husband and I grew convinced that SGM wasn’t going to be for us.
When I put up this blog, it was almost on a lark. My purpose was to be there for other questioners, in the way that NO ONE was there for me when I was confused. I wanted to describe what we’d experienced…nothing bad, “sinful,” or heretical, but just DIFFERENT in a way I couldn’t quite explain.
So you can probably imagine my shock when somebody actually commented on one of the posts, on about the blog’s second or third day up. Within a week, there were a bunch of responses. After a month, I think we’d had something like 12,000 hits.
If you were to ask my family what they’ve most often heard me say about this blog, they’d probably tell you two things. The first is, “This is unbelievable!” The second would be, “I’m amazed that some of these people have managed to hold onto their faith, if they really went through the things they’ve described.”
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve marveled aloud about how remarkable it is that so many of the folks who have shared their stories with me still proclaim themselves to be Christians. If I’d gone through such spiritual abuses at the hands of my church leaders, I’m really not sure where I’d be. I’d like to think that I’d still cling to the reality of Christ and the resurrection, but I honestly don’t know.
So…why am I bothering to share this again?
Well, if you’re expecting a sermon from me, Tina, it ain’t gonna happen. On a purely human level, I can understand your feelings about Christianity. And at this point, I’m sure it wouldn’t make a hill of beans’ difference if I tried to tell you that what you’ve experienced is simply NOT the love of Christ that I’ve known.
Just know that you are not alone. There are stories on the site, and then there are the real doozies that people have shared with me via email. Whenever I read these (and there seem to be new ones almost every day), I always wonder what Jesus would say to them. I know He wouldn’t preach a sermon. I’m pretty sure He’d just love them.
I hope that’s what you find here…the love of Christ.
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:26 am
Hi TIna,
Thank you so much for sharing your heart, and for the pain that you have gone through in the church. First of all, I was very sad to hear all that you had to endure, but your story and testimony made me all the more grateful that our family left the SGM church that we were going to, right when our girl’s teen years were beginning. There are already so many stinking pressures for girls to be perfect coming from society and culture, that having a twisted dose coming from the church really clouds one’s view of God or anything for that matter. I am not at all surprised that you don’t want to have anything to do with church or God for a long time. I know many people who have felt the same way. You may have already read about a few on this blog. Our family’s healing journey has been a painful process, but also very rewarding, as we have tasted more and more freedom as we have broken away from our old ways of thinking.And through it all we have truly come to a place of being able to recieve love from God and recognize his gentle voice calling us out of the wilderness. I finally remember again just how much I love Him, and how much He adores me and my family, as He does you. I don’t expect you to buy that , but that is ok, God’s sees your heart, and the God that I know must weep as He sees your pain…especially knowing it’s source. I am deeply sorry for your pain, and I am so grateful that you are getting help. Thank you again for being real with all of us….no more pretending!!! I hope you keep sharing with us.
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:28 am
I meant sharing your heart and sharing the pain that you have been through….I am sorry!! It is so late, and I am so tired. I am not making any sense am I????I need to go to beddy bye!!
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I find it incredibly interesting that this blog has become like a refuge for so many.
refuge – anything to which one has recourse for aid, relief, or escape
– that which shelters or protects from danger, distress or calamity; a stronghold
which protects by its strength, or a sanctuary which secures safety by its
sacredness; any place inaccessible to an enemy
Those that choose to cast doubt and reproach upon what’s happening here, in my opinion, are simply not seeing the…..what’s a good word for it? reality?
The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. Ps 9:9
Kris, thanks again for following the leading of the Spirit in establishing this place of refuge.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Kris and Freeda,
Thank you for your comments… It really means a lot. It has been many many years since someone told me that God loves me, despite how messed up I am… I’m significantly more accustomed to hearing that God hates me for betraying and blaspheming him.
I do still believe quite spiritually… I’m just not yet clear on how those beliefs take form. I’m pretty sure that I don’t believe in the predominant fundamentalist Christian view of God, or at least CERTAINLY sure I don’t buy in to SGMs theories. I guess at this point you could say I do believe there is a spiritual force which connects all people and that there certainly seem to be signs which points to its benevolence. I guess I don’t want to call that force ‘God’ because, to my heavily conditioned mind, ‘God’ is such a hateful, overbearing tyrant. If I believe in God, I believe in a good God, not the one I was raised on.
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Tina,
God loves you.
(Just wanted you to hear it at least one more time today.)
One of the things that made my husband and me begin to feel uneasy at our SG church was how our “sin nature” was emphasized at the expense of other key doctrines of the Christian faith. While we initially found their open talk of sin sort of refreshing, it started to wear on us after awhile.
An overemphasis on our sinfulness and Christ’s crucifixion will lead us to focus far too much on God’s wrath. God’s love, if it’s mentioned, will be discussed in terms of how He reached out to us in our sinfulness and made a way to avoid His wrath. But the process of focusing on our sin, of seeing evil in every natural inclination we might have, of constantly putting ourselves under closer and closer sin-sniffing scrutiny so as to “mortify” sin in ourselves – well, it almost inevitably leaves us at a spot where we can never move on to enjoying our status as God’s dearly loved children…to walking in the Spirit…to focusing on the GOOD things that God would have us DO, rather than the bad things that God wants us to avoid…
And while, as someone here mentioned, CJ has been quoted as saying something to the effect of, “For every look you take at your own sin, you must look 10 times at Christ,” even that is not enough to undo the harm of so much emphasis on our sinfulness.
Especially if the Christ you look at is the one hanging on the cross.
Because, Christ is no longer on the cross. He’s not even in the grave. He rose again! And consequently, we don’t have to be filled with constant self-loathing about our sinfulness. Yes, we should hate sin. But we don’t have to be seeing ourselves first and foremost as sinners. In God’s eyes, if we believe in what Christ did through His death and resurrection, we are SAINTS.
This is truly the “good news” of the Gospel. The Gospel really isn’t so much about the cross…as much as it is about Christ’s TRIUMPH over the cross, and God’s love for us.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Tina,
I had written a welcome post last night but wordpress wasn’t working for me for some reason, so I never got it to post….so anyways….WELCOME and I look forward to “getting to know” you better as you have time to post.
February 2nd, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Yes, Jesus was totally triumphant over sin, evil, and death!
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Hi Tina,
I sent you a small e-book via email, so I’ll save myself some duplication of effort, save to say, No wonder … Really. No wonder.
And I don’t want this to come across the wrong way … like I’m making light of what you wrote in any way. But the sweetest picture came to mind as I was reading your post. (I’m a picture person. Always have been.
)
I just saw a father with his daughter who looked to be pre-school age in a pool together. He was playfully swinging her in circles. Although He had a firm hold on her, she was struggling under the centrifugal force to maintain her hold of him. Of course, from my vantage point (as a third-party onlooker who was facing no risk of imminent danger, if this man’s strength was incapable of handling the “load”), I could see that he was neither assisted nor threatened in any way by her ability to hold on. But she didn’t know that. And because of that, she wasn’t able to fully relax and just enjoy the ride.
If I might be so bold, even if you have let go, your heavenly Father (who, I believe, grieves over how He has been misrepresented to you) still has you firmly in His hands.
The reality is it’s totally understandable why you would be questioning so much. When the Bible, which is supposed to be the sword of the Spirit, is used as a weapon of destruction and retribution, wounds are inevitable. And the deeper the slices caused by errant swings of this mighty sword, the more delicate the healing process.
Right now, I hope you can just focus on getting all better, Tina. You have so much on your plate and are in a really intensive therapy program. When the clouds part and the sutures heal, you’ll have a clearer perspective on how you can bring closure on the past, look at the future with hope, and truly enjoy the present “ride.”
Hang in there, sweetie! ;)
February 17th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
I was all set to write the most fictitious& outrageous post about a defrocked care group leader, with the intent of revealing the ruse later in hopes of pointing out the dangers of unsubstantiated blog entries, but my dear wife in her humble yet wise counsel (“are you sure this is something God would want you to do”) caused me to rethink this approach. After a short internal deliberation I determined she was right (as she often is) and decided on a different track, so here goes. I have read many many posts over the past week since stumbling upon the blog, and while there are truths to be found, there are also many untruths that go completely unchallenged. And while I agree that open discussion is good and necessary in order to bring truth to the forefront, I believe it is simply wrong to accept every post as fact. Unfortunately dear friends, I don’t have an answer to that problem and that’s something each person is going to have to 1) figure out for themselves, and 2) understand that they will account to our gracious Father in the Heaven for some day. Please, speak the truth in love.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:21 am
sggoneawry,
Hi, and welcome to the blog.
You bring up an interesting point, which is that we can’t always know which stories are reliable, or which details are true. I’ve received the occasional email pointing out how a particular person did not share the full story when posting something about his or her negative SGM experience. And although I’ve actually gone back and edited or even deleted some posts, I also tend to say the same thing in reply to the people who write these emails.
And that is, in the same way that someone like yourself can come along and recognize that some of the “testimonies” on this site need to be taken with a grain of salt, I am confident that the people who read and post here are also quite capable of discernment. Everyone knows that this is a blog where anyone is free to comment. Everyone is aware that I do not have a large staff of private investigators who are traveling hither and yon to carefully document each story.
It’s true that if you’d gone ahead with your clever plot to deceive, you probably would have received some sympathetic responses. But ultimately, I don’t think such a trick would have proven much that we all don’t already know. Anyone can be manipulated and tricked. It can happen on a blog, just like it can happen in church.
February 18th, 2008 at 9:54 am
sggoneawry
Welcome to the blog and you do have a good point. There are usually two sides to every story.
Of course, from what I have seen posted here Sovereign Grace sometimes does something similar when they excommunicate people.
A few people have posted here on the blog that SG leaders have held Mathew 18 session and discredited members who were leaving. The discredited members weren’t able to communicate there own side of the story and of course with the deference to leadership most SG members exhibit, most wouldn’t take the approach that there are two sides to what the discredited member supposedly did.
February 18th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Hi Everyone,
After reading sggoneawry’s post, I got to thinking about the fact that it is easy to read what some of us are saying as the complaints of people who left SGM because of personal reasons which may or may not have anything to do with God or the bible.
I wanted to take this time to explain the basis of my complaint about SGM (in part) as based on my biblical convictions.
First of all, I consider myself a reformed Christian and believe that in order for a church to be true and faithful, she must be built on the absolute authority of scripture. Reformed Christians believe that the church is a living organism made up of members in Christ, and is not governed by a hierarchy. We believe that there is no final authority other than the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
SGM church government is hierarchical and is not based on a reformed model. Changes in doctrine, practice, leadership (or the names given the movement or that of individual churches) which affect the whole organization are secretly brought in rather than being the result of prayer and discussion as a whole. The final authority of the Bible and the Holy Spirit is minimized in place of the decisions of a hierarchy.
Because of the hierarchical structure of SGM’s church government, there is a mentality of “Insiders vs Outsiders” or “Us vs Them” within the congregation, and a “Our Way or the Highway” relationship between the leadership and the membership. Questions and discussions in regards to decisions that are made or have been made are viewed as a lack of submission or obedience, and those that leave due to disagreement are generally shunned and viewed as schematics.
Reformed churches, like reformed Christians, know that, just like in our individual lives, the life of a reformed church will always be reforming. However, I view the changes that occur within SGM as reinventions rather than reformations. For true reformations to take place, I believe the authority structure of SGM needs to be built on a reformed model. The only changes that take place in SGM seem to be purely cosmetic, and their apparent familiarity, yet lack of conformity to reformed doctrine, leaves them looking like they are pretending to be something that they are not.
There are three “Marks of the Church” that the reformers evolved which are to be used for discerning the true church as opposed to a false church and they are: the faithful preaching of the Word of God, the proper administration of the sacraments, and the administration of discipline against those who are not observing the first two marks.
Separating from a church because of the overwhelming presence of false teaching is part of the heritage of reformed Christianity. People like Martin Luther joined his voice to a rising voice of the people of his day who were calling for correction, and since he was not willing to make compromises he left the church of Rome. I think what we witness here are voices calling out saying that SGM, while claiming to be “all that and bag of chips” is in need of correction, and that their preaching and model of church life is “off the mark”. At least that’s what I’m trying to say.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Ok, back to my highschool course on “the consumer & advertising, breaking your statement down:
1. “many untruths” – be specific, which are untruths?
2. out of those “many untruths”, those that you can give specifics for, which are completely unchallenged?
I have seen many come to this blog and challenge EVERYthing. I have seen those who post regularly on this blog challenge others who post regularly on this blog. I have seen those who post regularly disagree that certain things happen in their particular church.
So, if you are going to come on here and make such statements, please back them up.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Claireon-
Your post #229 was excellent! Right on the money!
And, to those who come on here and immediately draw the conclusion that folks are not telling the truth…of course, there could be issues of untruth, but if you look at each story on this blog there is a very, very, very common theme. ONe that could not be mearly mimicked by so many and for what gain? To me it seems that most of these stories involve people who earnestly tried to work things out with the church and their pastors and feel there is no other outlet. And, I think if you have never had a disagreement with the church or a discipline issue or just a parting of ways; you will never experience the negatives.
February 18th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Claireon,
You said,
AND
I couldn’t agree more. Well said.
Ellie,
You said,
I thought the same thing. When I read sggoneawry’s post, I dismissed it as pure, unsubstantiated and hyperbolic rhetoric. Unlike Sovereign Grace Ministries, this blog is definitely NOT a scrubbed down, homogenized group where issues go unchallenged.
February 18th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
sggoneawry-
Can I ask, what your motive was to create a fictional story?
What purpose would that serve?
Also-If there are some stories that you need to confirm the details-why not email the moderator or post a request to another poster to email them directly?
I have a feeling that many on this site would be willing to verify their story.