[Kris says: A reader - "Nickname" - posted the following observations about the questions the panels explored prior to issuing their reports about C.J. Mahaney's fitness for ministry. I thought "Nickname's" analysis was quite good and didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle. Here it is.]
From “Nickname’s” comment -
Question #1: Was CJ Mahaney’s participation in fellowship in 2003-2004, including the giving and receiving of correction, in keeping with the teaching of scripture?
The answer to this one is an easy “YES”, but that wasn’t the right question. The question should’ve been “Was CJ Mahaney’s participation in fellowship in 2003-2004, including the giving and receiving of correction, in keeping with his own teaching and personal/corporate expectations of participation by members of SGM churches?
The answer to THAT question is NO. Because SGM taught extra-biblical requirements for participation in fellowship (i.e., homegroup attendance and an extra-biblical definition of fellowship found in CJ’s own book, “Why Small Groups.”
Question #2: Did CJ Mahaney wrongly influence Brent Detwiler’s dismissal from his church in Mooresville, NC?
The answer to THAT question is also NO, and if you want to get technical, the church in Mooresville did not belong to Brent, so the term “his church” makes it impossible to answer the question in the affirmative.
A better question would have been: Did CJ Mahaney have prior or ongoing knowledge of Brent Detwiler’s dismissal, reinstatement, and subsequent final dismissal from the Mooresville church, and what was his role in instructing, discussing, and/or approving Gene Emerson’s advice to the Mooresville church?
Reality check needed here. Can any one imagine a scenario, ecclesiastical, political, miltary or corporate, where the #3 guy gets booted without the #1 guys knowledge or approval? Sure, Brent was no longer #3 — but he had been for a long time, and his presence and influence in SGM was huge. Does anyone think for one second that CJ did not have veto power over these shenanigans?
The board admits that GE was wrong in conveying faulty information to the Mooresville church. At the time, GE answered to CJ. CJ had the responsibility of supervising GE, and instructing his decisions regarding Brent. So, YES, CJ wrongly influenced the firing of Brent Detwiler, whether or not Brent’s performance justified his dismissal. It was poorly done.
Question #3: Was Larry Tomczak’s departure from Sovereign Grace ministries handled properly?
Hmmm. The panel danced around a straight answer by saying they weren’t lawyers and therefore couldn’t determine whether or not Larry was coerced or blackmailed.
Hmmm. The panel continued to sidestep by saying that since SGM had no policy in place, they had no way to know if it was handled properly — they don’t know what properly means. What — were these guys raised by wolves? Does it take a steel-trap legal mind to know that coercion, blackmail, and the willful and deliberate betrayal of a minor parishioner’s confidence is NOT PROPER under anybody’s definition?
Hmmm. Notice that in Question #1, they wanted to determine if an action was in keeping with the teaching of scripture. But in this question, they only wanted to know if an action was handled properly.
So, the better question would’ve been: Was Larry Tomczak’s departure from Sovereign Grace Ministries handled in keeping with the teaching of scripture? Not hardly.
They recommended that SGM make some kind of monetary gift to Larry, carefully noting that severance packages are not customary when someone resigns rather than gets terminated. HELLO???? So, what definition do they give to the golden parachutes that the resigning Mahaney sons-in-law just received from CLC? Hey — I LIKE it that they recommended some kind of cash restitution to Larry. And I’d like to see them extend that same courtesy to every other pastor who ‘resigned’ under coercive circumstances, and even more importantly, make financial restitution to the families who’ve suffered major financial ramifications due to long-term hardships caused by covered-up molestation cases — EXCLC’ers Mom, Happymom and Wallace, Noel and Grizzly, SGMnot, and any others. But don’t go trying to look all benevolent and generous by pointing out that severance packages aren’t customary — when the precedent was just set by giving severance in the nepotistic situation. I realize that the sons-in-law were given their severance by CLC, not by SGM. But I wonder whose idea was that in the first place?
Closing Remarks on Brent Detwiler: “…(Brent) continues to unfairly criticize…we renew our appeal to have his pastor contact us so that we might take the next steps toward this goal….”
The board negates any claim to objectivity with the use of the word “unfairly” in regard to Brent’s criticisms.
And then, the condescending idea that Brent needs to “have his pastor contact us” is beyond rude. Where do they get the idea that Brent’s pastor needs to talk to them? Brent’s a big boy — he can contact them himself. And where do they get the idea that they are somehow ecclesiastical royalty that can only be approached by a pastor? I don’t see any tearing down of the dividing walls of hostility here, and this statement exhibits their ignorance of the priesthood of all believers. This statement in itself is worth asking Question #1 of the Board. Are you participating in fellowship with Brent in keeping with the teaching of scripture?
[Kris again: Something else that I wanted to highlight comes from Brent Detwiler's response to the reports. Here it is:]
By Brent Detwiler -
Here’s the harsh reality people must accept! The overwhelming vast majority of my charges have not been presented, heard or judged in a hearing by anyone. Like the O.J. Simpson trial, C.J. is getting away with murder (a little hyperbole folks). Here is what Dave promised two months ago.
“How is Sovereign Grace’s board handling the allegations that Brent Detwiler has brought against C.J. Mahaney? We know that you care about this a lot. We also care about this a lot, and we are taking Brent’s allegations seriously. We don’t want to ignore the many accusations that now sit in the public mind. We want to get this right. Brent’s documents require impartial examination and C.J. deserves a fair hearing.” (Dave Harvey, “What are we doing about the allegations against C.J.,” November 28, 2011)
Dave is full of it. The SGM Board has never taken my allegations seriously. No siree! They came up with the three panel approach so they could purposely ignore “the many accusations” I’ve documented in over 1,200 pages of evidence. This wasn’t a “fair hearing” for C.J. It was a rigged hearing. Soft ball questions. Biased jury. Misdemeanor charges for a felon. The suppression of evidence in the verdict. No cross examination. C.J. was not held accountable for his sins. Very little was investigated and all the terms and conditions were favorable to C.J. The three panel approach was an ostentatious show of righteousness – a pretense for justice. It was all image and no substance. People should be outraged.
This statement from Dave on Wednesday is also terribly deceptive.
“To further protect the integrity of the process, the interim Board sought the counsel and affirmation of an outside conciliation ministry, Ambassadors of Reconciliation (AOR). With C.J. on leave and AOR involved, the review process took the following form: We [the SGM Board and AOR] commissioned three outside ministers to review Brent’s documents in light of C.J.’s confessions and render their judgment on his fitness to serve in ministry. In light of their evaluation, they found him to be completely fit to serve. We [the SGM Board and AOR] then commissioned three panels—each consisting of three SGM pastors—to evaluate C.J.’s involvement in the three central events of Brent’s allegations.” (Dave Harvey, “An announcement regarding C.J. Mahaney,” January 25, 2012)
Dave says Ambassadors of Reconciliation “commissioned three panels-each consisting of three SGM pastors.” This is a lie! Three days ago, I talked to Ted Kober about this very subject in detail. I asked him if AOR helped create the three panel approach. He said no. I asked if he commended the approach. He said no. I asked him if he supported the approach. He said he never expressed support or a lack of support. He remained neutral because he did not feel it was his place to take a position since the SGM Board devised the plan entirely on their own.
Ted Kober did not help to create this plan and he did not in any way “commission” the three panel approach. This fabrication by Dave is just like his lie that Bryce Thomas came up with the questions for the three panels. SGM acted independent of AOR but the SGM Board wants you to believe otherwise.
January 30th, 2012 at 11:51 pm
Oswald…I didn’t see CJ in church on Sunday but I only went to the first service. I’m sure it would have been a big deal if he was there…someone would have reported by now. We hear that John Loftness’ son and family have left to join Solid Rock Church. Sunday was their last time.
January 31st, 2012 at 12:02 am
I do think someone should go did into the sermon archives to remind CJ about how thrilled he used to say he would be to one day sit in the congregation and support the next senior pastor of CLC. What happened to all that enthusiastic support he promised? He’s hanging Josh out to dry!
January 31st, 2012 at 2:18 am
I must confess that I have not been on the blogs in many weeks for several reasons. First, there isn’t anything I could offer that others who are better communicators and have a better handle on what is going on in SGM are offering. Second, I felt there was such a push and energy that was expended for several months to a hope in the AoR process, I felt it would be prudent to see their report before making any judgments or speculations. Third, there are only so many ways that you can communicate to the same issues, problems and abuses of SGM and I exhausted mine. Fourth, my wife and I have been put our energies, time and resources setting up and launching our new business . Fifth, I have lacked all motivation and hope with respects to CJ, Dave, the SGM board and SGM changing anything with how they conduct their business. Perhaps the fifth reason overrides all others.
That being said the recent developments with regards to CJ and his qualifications to lead SGM do stir a response in my heart and my mind. I am not sure my thoughts really add anything new to the mix but I am stirred to comment anyway. I don’t know if my thoughts are necessarily prophetic but I do sense a prophetic stirring in me.
I have communicated on the blogs over the last 2 years that the leaders of SGM do not think or feel they have done anything wrong with how they have exercised authority, oversight or leadership. They would never say they haven’t made mistakes but they hide them in “they could have led better, or provided better oversight and exercised authority in a better way”, but in their heart of hearts they wholeheartedly believe they are right in what they are doing AND WITH HOW THEY ARE DOING IT.
This makes reformation within SGM absolutely impossible. In fact, they constantly reinforce their doctrines and methodologies with themselves and their churches ; they are doing exactly what they believe the Bible says they are to be doing. The problem is they are exactly 100% wrong in their interpretation of the scripture with regards to their call, their authority and who they think they are. They have become their own gods and worship at the throne of their own demagoguery. I obviously don’t want to understate this J!
There was much conversation and concern among the former leaders in Maryland about the length of time the AoR report would be made public. There was too much time for them to get CJ back in place and marginalize AoR. The AoR report has been marginalized that will be about correcting some minor deficiencies and nothing more. They will acknowledge according to the CJ and SGM notebook their confession that they could have done better and they have now made the necessary changes to do better in the future. Can anyone say ‘smoke and mirrors’. I really feel bad for all of those who took the time and energy to tell their stories and I feel bad for AoR.
After a couple of hours with Ted in my interview, I gave him pages of notes and observations with regards to SGM being a cult. I said to him at that time, I would most likely not go public with my observations but I am inclined to say I fully believed these men are cult leaders and SGM is a cult. I have been asked by many if I thought they were a cult and I have declined to answer the question. Now to answer their question; I do believe they are a cult.
I am not saying they are unsaved! I am also not saying that everyone who follows these men is unsaved! They would qualify as a cult by how they exercise their authority that I believe Biblically is not God given but man taken; and the measure of the fruit of destruction of thousands of people and families and the destruction and removal of hundreds of leaders and their families at their hands. No one can challenge these men without incurring their wrath and swift removal or being marginalized and suffer severe character assassination.
I would also conclude that these men are not shepherds after the heart of the Chief Shepherd!! Their hearts are self-serving, self-exalting and self-preserving. Because they seek to save themselves, preserve themselves and promote themselves they have lost their life (Mk 8:35). They are purveyors of the gospel in their own minds but the Bible states in the same passage that only those willing to lose their life for His sake will be saved or benefitted by the gospel.
It is my contention that SGM (mis)uses the gospel to control their flock not to set them free!!! They (mis)use the gospel to their own selfish ends rather to the ends of Christ that all men be free under a yoke that is easy and a burden that is light. They do not reflect the character and being of our Chief Shepherd who is gentle and humble in heart. CJ can write all the books he wants on humility, but the fact of the matter is, his heart is not gentle and humble and is far from the heart of our true shepherd and the Lord Jesus Christ. This is not speculation or wrongful judgment but it based on the fruit of the ministry. They (the world) will know us by our fruit.
I do wonder how the Lord views all of this. Will it take an Ananias and Sapphira event to bring a sense of the fear of God to these leaders? How long can they harden their hearts to the Spirit of God? Will God continue to allow Satan to fill their hearts with deceit?
I write my thoughts with no accusation but only observation. Satan is the accuser of the brethren – I am not!!! I cannot get out of my heart and mind a concern for these men who have meant so much to so many, that perhaps they are putting themselves in harm’s way of the very One they are confessing they are serving.
I pray that this is not the case but I am provoked to pray for these men that God would be merciful and gracious as He has been with me.
January 31st, 2012 at 6:21 am
I think someone has mentioned this already, but this garbage is not tolerated in the secular business world. Sure, there have been some companies with bad press over the years, but there is usually accountability from a board or shareholders that remedies the situation and gets it back on track. The root of SGM’s problem is due to the double standards they operate by. Every time they get called on it, they have this “deer in the headlights” response. Over the years, this has led to more and more cover up and produced this tangled web. I cannot imagine this ever getting better without most, if not all, of the board and many pastors stepping down.
To think that we need to speculate as to who CJ’s pastor is. I guess it is Dave Harvey. Very convenient.
January 31st, 2012 at 7:22 am
Fried Fish said in #35
“With the semantic gymnastics these SGM leaders employ in their verbal wizardry..”
That’s just perfect! If only those gymnastics and verbal wizardry included genuine sorrow over the mess they’ve made.
January 31st, 2012 at 7:38 am
Irv -
Your #53 is very good. Thanks for popping back in to share that.
I’m curious -- what did you sense from AoR when you shared your opinion that SGM is a cult? What was Mr. Kober’s reaction? Did he seem at all receptive to your point of view?
January 31st, 2012 at 7:43 am
To further clarify this muddled-mess (or muddle it, maybe) about what AoR is supposed to do and what the SGM board should (shouldn’t) be doing, I sent in a comment several days ago to the SGM Plant/Build blog in response to this comment from Andrew-”A few people have asked why [the panel evaluations] came before the Ambassadors of Reconciliation report, so I’m going to respond in this one place for the sake of consolidating info. AOR’s recommendations to us (http://bit.ly/rpdwdO) separated the process of evaluating C.J. from doing the ministry wide evaluation (“Group Reconciliation”), and so that is the course of action we took. The two processes have always been distinct.”:
My comment: “Unfortunately, this approach, regardless of who recommended it, is flawed from the start. CJ and his approach to leading SGM are inextricably linked to the need for “Group Reconciliation.” Therefore, any ministry-wide evaluation must include an evaluation of CJ, otherwise the results are incomplete and unbalanced at best. At worst, one could argue that the process is being gamed by separating CJ’s evaluation from the ministry-wide evaluation and passing judgment on his fitness for ministry prematurely.”
I doubt it will be posted, given the tone of the other comments on that post.
MAK, not surprising to hear about families of the “inner circle” leaving. I also know for a fact that the Chesemore home (formerly CJ’s home) has just been sold. Guess the permanent exodus from CLC of those loyal to SGM is further solidified.
January 31st, 2012 at 7:50 am
First, I have come under a different name, my intention is to protect the one who told me what happened between he and our last pastor in an SGM church….I’ll get to that in a minute…
So, as one person I spoke with said (who was a pastor and admitted and has confessed his part in abuses), anyone in the leadership of SGM will do only just enough in order to make it look like they are doing something. There is no real desire to change, there is not even an understanding that things are really wrong, there is simply a desire to make it look like something is happening all the while there is nothing going on on the inside (sound like something Brent quoted from Jesus)…I know nothing new said there, but there you go…
As far as my friend who left the SGM church -- this is what he said transpired…One person in leadership asked where they had been, and my friend stated that they had been to a couple of churches. This one in leadership told the pastor, who then called my friend and asked to meet with him. (by the way, my friend is one who “bleeds bibline”). He is a very godly man -- whom I greatly respect. Any way, the SGM pastor said to him that since my friend did not agree with him (on issues that my friend would not and did not make an issue of -- even though he disagreed strongly. My friend during the years -- yes years at the church -- never made it an issue, it was the pastor who made these deal breakers), told him that he should not be a member of that church. There was no desire to “work things out.”
What it seems to me is that this pastor was taking what CJ said in his address to the family of churches from the PC -- to remove any one who may be a dissident (of the SGM government that is). He was being a dutiful steward of the charge given by CJ, “it will take courage” to point out and remove anyone who does not agree with them….
I am greatful that I am not in that church. I am greatful I am no longer in that movement…I never thought I would say that before all of this came out. But it is absolutely true.
This is a great tragedy in the church of Jesus….For Jesus’ people to be treated in this manner is sick and wrong and disgusting…My friend has been purchased by the blood of the Lamb!
January 31st, 2012 at 9:03 am
Crack analysis by Nickname in this post!
Read this in The Economist today and I thought of the parallels between SGM and the Chinese Communist Party:
You really could replace “China” with “SGM” and “Communist Party” with “SGM Board/Borg” in this paragraph.
Irv, it looks like The Economist has “prophetic stirring” just like you. ;)
January 31st, 2012 at 9:28 am
It grieves me to know Christian bloggers and publications I once respected have grown to be just as greedy as secular business. I pray that folks come to realize this and quit reading and supporting them.
(And I’m praying HARD!)
Negative comments and letters don’t seem to have an effect on these guys, they appear to be just as arrogant as SGM.
I honestly think God’s trying to show us how foolish it is to put so much confidence in men, never “testing” their words.
January 31st, 2012 at 9:45 am
Kris #56 — Ted didn’t comment, he listened and took my notes and documentation. CJ’s very disappointing diatribe at the pastor’ conference pretty much put the dagger into the heart SGM. That anyone stays in SGM is sad but they cannot say they are uninformed.
January 31st, 2012 at 9:49 am
RoadWork,
HowDee!
In reference to your comment: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3283&cp=6#comment-58348
I’ze a ‘pray’in….my friend
To the end…God would have his way…
So we’ll make it one mo prayer for your baby…
And one mo prayer …for da road!
-Blue skies smiling at me, nothing but blue skies do I see!
I’ze hear my Lord, whistle’n dis here tune:
’…Never saw the Son shining so bright, never saw things going so right. Blue days all of them gone, nothing but blue skies from now on…’
(sit’n on the back side of His throne…sweeeet!)
♪♪♪Blue skys, talk’in bout blue skys…comm’in your way!
Sopy , † ;~)
___
♪Beautiful Savior…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXQJDTf1x2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
January 31st, 2012 at 10:02 am
Light, I was at Cov Fel from mid 80s until 2001. My kids were in youth group. So I assume we know each other.
I am SO sorry to hear what happened to your son at the retreat. I wish he didn’t have to suffer like that. My daughter HATED that night, running, stealth game. But just as much for the self righteous kids she had to play with as for the danger, which she wasn’t a fan of, either. I am SO sad to hear your son still suffers from that awful idea of a “game”.
You said, “When my husband asked how many families had left in the last three years, Dave said he didn’t know. We asked him if he knew why people were leaving he said, no.”
If Dave Harvey told you he didn’t know why people were leaving in the years from 2000-2003, that is a LIE. He SHOULD have known about at least one family who left in 2001 (us). We left after we got a letter signed on behalf of the pastors, inviting us to go find another church where we could have more trust in the pastors, because we had the gall to believe them that they wanted our input. We foolishly believed them and spoke with them about certain things we saw that we believed needed their care. (One was that we had very strong concerns about the man in charge of children’s ministry. The man who it later came out had been molesting his own children for quite some time, under the guise of teaching them about sex for when they are married.) Four days after our meeting with one of the pastors, we received the letter from all of the pastors, inviting us to leave Cov Fel.
There is no way Dave can claim he didn’t know about why people left! Dave, try, “We kicked ‘em out!”
We were shattered. God has brought healing. But finding out that others suffered in the same way has made me want to take a stand and say, “No more” to the lies.
Welcome here. I hope your children and family find the healilng God means for you.
All my best,
Stunned
January 31st, 2012 at 10:33 am
Thanks for the welcome
ExClc’smom, Oswald and Kilngo. No,it isn’t the Blue church, but it is the one near Target.
My main concern with SGM is their total disregard of anyone outside of their movement. After we left I ran into one of the legion of CFC’s pastors, Marty Machowski, and I was asked “IF” I was going to church. My response was I left CFC not the Lord. And yes, I was blessed to be in new church.
They are so convinced that they are the only anointed denomination (let’s admit it they are a denomination unto themselves) that when my husband was considering applying for a job in another city in a different state where there there were no PDI/SGM churches we were asked by fellow care group leaders…”Why would you consider that? I thought when they cut you you bleed PDI?” I guess I shocked my friend when I said there were lots of good churches and no when they cut me I hope I bleed Jesus Christ crucified and risen.
The reality is that the allegiance of these Pastor’s is only to C.J., Dave and SGM, and not to their congregations and especially not to the Lord Jesus Christ. The truth is they have left a battle field full of wounded and dying sheep. They are supposed to be like our Lord who would go and leave the 99 and restore the one. Instead they pursue those who have money or are easily manipulated into becoming the “Stepford Sheep” mindless followers of SGM’s agenda.
I am however grateful to have walked that road. The trial was hard and the experience painful. But, what I have received from God is grace, healing and most of all compassion. A true understanding of love for the body and His caution not to judge others. What I have learned is how not to treat the Body of Christ. And how to really show the love of God and understand we are not all on the same place in our walk and I am not the Holy Spirit. Only He can bring repentance and change.
We need to pray for these men. If they are truly believers as they claim, the we must pray that the Holy Spirit brings conviction. As they open the word of God and read it, He promises it will not return void. We must intercede and cry out for true sorrow and that they might be able to truly humble themselves, own their true actions toward their congregants. In doing so God will give us His love for these men and we will receive healing from His Holy Spirit to let go of bitterness and unforgiveness. And be able to help those who are newly coming out of the movement with fresh hurts.
God Bless
January 31st, 2012 at 10:39 am
Kindred,
The responses of those out in the Reformed blogging/writing world have been on my mind today. I was going through some old drafts of posts that I started but either never finished or never published, and I found one I’d written last summer, back when the SGM developments were flying so fast and furious that there never seemed to be an appropriate time to put up something that was just a “Kris editorial” sort of thing. But as I read that unpublished post again this morning, I was thinking I might just put it up anyway, despite the fact that it’s no longer as timely as it was back when I first threw it together.
It’s a post addressed to Kevin DeYoung, but many aspects could apply to all of the Reformed bloggers/authors who have endorsed CJ and SGM in one form or another. I have struggled mightily to reconcile how it is that these guys can write so much that is so good…and how they can seem to be so wise and insightful and discerning about so many issues…and yet at the same time continue to be so willfully blind about SGM, to the point where a blogger like Tim Challies (http://www.challies.com/) now makes it his policy not to publish any negative or questioning comments about CJ/SGM (though as far as I can tell, he has no problem letting the positive comments through)…and where someone like Brian Croft can wax emotional as he expresses his dismay over CJ’s negative press (http://practicalshepherding.com/2012/01/23/why-am-i-grateful-for-c-j-mahaneys-ministry/)…
Ultimately, I think these guys’ seeming eagerness to defend CJ and gloss over his (and SGM’s) real problems comes down to a few factors.
One is that, as has been discussed here in the past, many of these guys have a vested interest in maintaining good relationships with big-name book endorsers and those who would otherwise influence large swaths of people to buy books -- guys like CJ. I can understand their reluctance to make waves. The bottom line is, well, the bottom line. It’s highly unlikely that a former web designer like Tim Challies would have the career he has today -- “World’s Most Famous Christian Blogger™,” author of multiple books, semi-celebrity conference speaker, pastor -- if he hadn’t spent years making a name for himself as the level-headed but essentially positive reviewer of the products that ministries like SGM put out. The Christian publishing world is a reciprocal place, to say the least. No one can really afford to tick off someone like CJ, whose endorsement frequently meant an entire
denominationfamily of churches would dash out, lemming-like, to buy whatever book he might recommend.Another factor for why so many of these bloggers/authors seem so reluctant to face facts about SGM is, I think, rooted in ego. Pride. Challies originally came to fame in part for his series of posts analyzing Rick Warren’s Purpose-Driven materials. Challies was one of the original “discernment bloggers.” What would it say about his discernment, if it turns out that he was actually duped by a cult and its charismatic leader?
Perhaps the biggest factor, though, is simply that these celebrity bloggers/authors/pastors have had totally different firsthand experiences with CJ and SGM because they are celebrity bloggers/authors/pastors. Really, I think that’s at the heart of it. These guys simply do not understand (or don’t want to see) that the very root of what has made SGM an abusive ministry -- its hierarchal preferential treatment of people (leaders) deemed “more important” -- is precisely why their own experiences with CJ have been so glowingly positive.
It’s actually kind of a “Duh!!” thing. I mean, of COURSE Brian Croft has experienced nothing but warmth, kindness, and encouragement from CJ. Of course! Why wouldn’t he? Brian Croft is someone of value in CJ’s eyes -- he’s a pastor and leader, someone with the power of the pen, someone with influence (whether he fully realizes it or not). The very reason Brian Croft can gush with warm fuzzies about CJ is also the same reason why the “little people” beneath him have been shown the door when they question leaders within SGM. SGM is a status-conscious, hierarchal ministry with a cultic pyramid leadership structure that gives different treatment to people depending upon where they fall along that pyramid. Guys with blogs, book endorsers? Important! Pastors from other ministries with connections to influential Reformed people? VERY important! Roll out the red carpet for them!
So, yeah -- I think it comes down to the bottom line, ego, and not wanting to open their minds to the idea that the way they were treated is not how everyone is treated.
Someday, though, I have a feeling all these guys are going to wish they’d been just as skeptical of CJ/SGM as they are of the likes of Rick Warren and T.D. Jakes.
Time will tell.
January 31st, 2012 at 10:49 am
Stunned -- #63 --
“We foolishly believed them and spoke with them about certain things we saw that we believed needed their care. (One was that we had very strong concerns about the man in charge of children’s ministry. The man who it later came out had been molesting his own children for quite some time, under the guise of teaching them about sex for when they are married.) Four days after our meeting with one of the pastors, we received the letter from all of the pastors, inviting us to leave Cov Fel. ” :barf:
I am so sorry that you all went through that, it is just sickening. Was that one of the stories included in Dave’s summertime spin/speech when he said that maybe they’ve mishandled a few things here or there???
Light,
I am so sorry about what happened to your son. I pray you are all healing.
January 31st, 2012 at 10:51 am
Stunned,
I was writing at the same time and just read what you wrote. I am sure we know each other. Husband was on the worship team, I ran hospitality for a while. 3 bio kids, 2 boys, one girl, 3 girls adopted from China. Yeah, we fell into the ‘bring us your concerns’ trap too. It’s their way of weeding out the ‘subversives’.
I am so sorry that you were kicked out and so sorry you were hurt. But mostly I am sorry that I was probably so wrapped up in my own stuff that I didn’t reach out to you and try to help.
My prayer for you is that God has brought healing into your life and that you have found a church home that is truly a family.
We are blessed to have veil removed and able to see clearly now. Blessings.
January 31st, 2012 at 11:23 am
Kris, I sure hope so.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think you pretty well nailed the reasons.
A lot of these guys frequently tease and make snide remarks about the “critical bloggers” -- it’s so disheartening.
January 31st, 2012 at 11:37 am
Irv @53 Thank you for your candor and being willing to openly express all of that. You, as a former SGM Senior pastor, being willing to put your reputation on the line and communicate what you really think about SGM means a lot. I hope they are listening, even though we can all observe the glaring signs, that they are NOT.
I agree that they are our brothers-in-the-Lord, even though the deception runs deep--the same Holy Spirit who has shown us the way and led us away from that system of abuse is within them. There is still time for at least some of them--to stand up and to do the right thing--humbly repent of their errors (in detail and in truth).
Light @31 So sorry to hear what happened to your son and your whole family! All I can think is--such dreadful, woefully-bereft care!
“Schlubs”—I love that word! Just a little comic relief within such a sad statement! Yeah, I was a “schulb” too!! :(
January 31st, 2012 at 11:56 am
All these events are so sad.The pain,the lies’ the neglect and abuse.Healing will not happen inside; it will happen -by God’s grace-out here in the world. Among other Christians-in real churches.In those we do not always agree, but we listen. And if you feel you must leave-even angry-you won’t be cut off or threatened.Your friends will still be your friends.In accord with my name these notes:The”pastors in a circle hot seat business”I have heard of that; it is a Maoist technique. And the disappearing/never existed stuff-that is Stalinist.The change in word meanings derives from Marx.I don’t know where the “pastors” learned them, but they are in common use among tyrants.
January 31st, 2012 at 12:15 pm
I know I’m off in my own little world at the moment, pondering the Reformed blogdom’s defensive and cheerleaderish responses to CJ/SGM, but I had one thought I’d add to my #65.
Or maybe two thoughts.
The first relates to the concern raised by Brian Croft in the post I linked to:
Basically, Croft is bothered by the fact that people can abandon the CJ love train based upon hearing Brent’s accusations and stories of SGM’s dark side…when all the while, it remains true that CJ has done good things in the ministry. Because Croft deems CJ’s ministry “fruitful,” and because CJ has positively affected Croft himself on a personal level, Croft believes CJ’s critics ought to cut him some slack.
I’m not quite sure how to respond to that. I mean, on the one hand, I can understand where Croft is coming from. When we find someone likeable, and have had good experiences with the person, we think that our own reality ought to be the defining reality. Our own experiences always seem more legitimate to us than those of others.
Also, present in Croft’s musings is the idea that if the positive outweighs the negative, the positive ought to rule the day.
I get it. It seems logical, after a fashion.
But then, on the other hand, it really isn’t logical.
Brian Croft wants to minimize the reality of those who have had horrible experiences at the hands of CJ and those under CJ’s control because Croft himself thinks CJ is a “grateful” and funny and humble and encouraging guy. And because there are many others who share Croft’s opinion.
But that makes about as much sense as saying that a man accused of abusing a couple of family members shouldn’t be defined by that abuse…because other family and those on the outside who aren’t relatives have not been abused.
Or that a criminal shouldn’t be characterized by the crimes he committed…because he also volunteered at the homeless shelter and gave his mom flowers on Mothers Day.
In a lot of situations in life, the unfortunate truth is that, in the words of Jesus Himself, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump.” Sadly, Jimmy Swaggart will likely be defined not by the decades he’s spent -- before and since -- preaching and singing, but by the late-1980s 30-second televised segment of the speech he gave wherein he cried crocodile tears as he confessed to getting caught liking to do yucky stuff with hookers. Richard Nixon’s legacy isn’t about his years as Eisenhower’s faithful VP or about his considerable diplomatic successes with the likes of Communist China. Richard Nixon’s defining moments come down to Watergate.
Those are dramatic examples, sure. But it’s a simple truth, that a person’s track record can easily be overshadowed by one or two bad decisions or habitual shortcomings.
Just ask all the SGM pastors who were deemed “not actually gifted” for the ministry under CJ’s rule.
January 31st, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Canary #14, Light #31
Can you (and/or others, due to your history in the “movement”) explain when “if you don’t tithe 10% of your GROSS your sinning” came into being with CLC/TAG/PDI/SGM? Who initiated that one? Do you still have the messages on tape? Do you have the written documentation of that time? :huh
January 31st, 2012 at 12:32 pm
I was just thinking about “the family members” example you used, Kris.
Unfortunately, I know several narcissists. I always find it so interesting that with each narcissist, there are always folks who think the narcissist is a WONDERFUL individual -- shocked by the differing opinions of those who have seen the narcissist’s “true colors.”
January 31st, 2012 at 12:53 pm
I think the things we have wanted and prayed for in our leaders in SGM; humility, repentance, doing the right thing, seeing the truth, making amends, are the very things happening in ourselves. God is working in a quiet and effective way to make us the people He would have us to be/become. He is not dependent on leaders to lead us, He is our God. Maybe God is showing us that we don’t need leaders, He has given us the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures for our guide. I’m not sure where I’m going with this. We still need fellowship with other believers, but maybe not in a ‘church’ setting. The old days of TAG sounds like it was a good thing that grew to be too big and self-important. Just thoughts….
January 31st, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Foot #72
I have not kept any teaching tapes from our 10 years at CFC. But when it came to building projects there was an almost constant barrage of teaching on giving. Lots of talk, little scripture from what I remember. But the thing that has stayed with me all these years was the slogan adopted during that time. NOT EQUAL GIVING, BUT EQUAL SACRIFICE. What they meant was we were supposed to give until it hurt. You see they wanted the church to be debt free. My husband even asked, “What if people still owe on their mortgages or car payments? Aren’t they obligated to pay down personal debt before giving above the tithe with offerings to the church”? He was told no, the church building came first.
Also, the leaders refused to take any input or counsel from professional contractors in the body when it came to the decisions regarding the planning of the building. And then they spared no expense building the most beautiful building with a five stage splatter paint process in the foyer (which cost 3 times as much as a solid color paint job). So, I must sacrifice being able to hire a painter to paint my home, do it myself and then go to church where most of the body didn’t notice or care about the paint color.
One Sunday morning while at CFC I smelled natural gas near the kitchen. I got my husband and he said yes, he smelled it too. So we got one of the pastors over. They said no, no gas can’t smell it and they told us to let it go. :bang Well the building was full of children and I was sure I smelled gas. My husband who knows I have a killer sense of smell trusted me and went against the leadership and got an HVAC guy from out of worship to check it out. He thought he might smell something but to make sure he got a detector from his truck. Sure enough, natural gas.
The HVAC guy found the gas was leaking form a cracked outlet cover on the wall outside the kitchen. When he followed the source he found that the source was an improperly (and illegally) installed gas stove. The wall and ceiling were slowly filling with gas and the building could have blown up. We vented every thing we could by removing ceiling tiles and opening the wall.
When my husband went back to the pastor he had fist told about the gas there was no response. No, “sorry I doubted you” or thanks, we might have had a explosion if you hadn’t intervened. Typical arrogant, unteachable attitude. They also didn’t appreciate the stir it was causing when people came over to see what was going on. The wanted the kitchen door closed so no one knew. I left it open to vent the gas. :scratch
January 31st, 2012 at 1:06 pm
I also think these quasi-celebrity blogging CJ endorsers are blinded by CJ’s charm and force of personality, and don’t understand what it’s like to be on the inside of SGM’s culture. Instead, the CJ-lovin’ bloggers take their “normal” definitions of key Christian terms, concepts, and practices and hear CJ’s teachings through the filter provided by their outsider’s understanding. They look at CJ from a shoulder-to-shoulder perspective (or perhaps, an armpit-to-shoulder perspective…looking up to him somewhat, but not in the way that the ordinary SGMer has been taught to venerate CJ).
The differences in terminology are especially significant because these Reformed quasi-celebrities vet one another through doctrine. The fact that CJ appears to affirm all the important Reformed/Calvinist/Puritan beliefs about sin, for example, is pretty much enough to grant him a huge free pass when it comes to other questionable areas like continuationism versus cessationism, or credo- versus paedo- baptism. Even the organization’s very name -- Sovereign Grace Ministries -- gives CJ another layer of credibility.
Plus, the blogging outsiders absolutely LOVE what they think they know about SGM’s lockstep unity and the way that members have historically seemed to unquestionably follow and obey whatever their pastors say. For anyone in the ministry, I can imagine that having that level of allegiance from members would hold a special appeal…especially in the face of how things often are out in “normal” churches, where conflicts are dealt with normally, openly, and honestly rather than stifled or hidden.
All of these things combine to create a very hard protective shell of good image around SGM, where unless one of these bloggers would hire some unknown nobody to go undercover and really infiltrate an SGM church and experience the culture for himself, the blogger could never know how it really is for the “little people.” All he knows is what he experiences firsthand -- which, as I already mentioned, is going to be glowing and positive simply because of who the blogger is, an “important” person in CJ’s/SGM’s eyes -- and what he observes from the outside looking in, with his outsider’s (very faulty) understanding of what key terms mean, and his outsider’s lack of knowledge of the cultic tactics used to brainwash people into the kind of “unity” he thinks he’s seeing.
January 31st, 2012 at 1:07 pm
Hi Foot,
I rarely comment here but if I may add some input on the tithing question, I would like to. I have been in SGM churches since the 1990′s. My first church did teach that we should give 10% tithe PLUS an offering but I really can’t recall any “documentation” about it. I know that in my current SGM church our pastor preaches that Christians do NOT have to tithe at all but are encouraged to give as personally led by the Holy Spirit. I don’t know if that helps but thanks for letting me pop up from lurkdom and pipe in. :worm
January 31st, 2012 at 1:14 pm
I would second what “Heavy Heart” shared, in that in our SGM experience of 5 or so years ago, Guy and I both thought that our SGM pastors were very low-key about money. I don’t recall tithing discussed much -- maybe just once -- and there weren’t any legalistic formulas, as best I can remember. This was over the span of a little less than a year, so I feel like we had a pretty good idea of where our SGM church stood when it came to money.
But, then again, we never became actual members. Maybe things change for members.
January 31st, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Kris 78
Tithing may not be discussed from the pulpit at CLC much anymore but, they sure emphasize it in the New Members’ classes and, once a year they bring in a financial advisor to give a professional seminar, which, among other things, strongly encourages tithing.
People are not allowed to join the church if they disagree with the tithing teaching and I am sure there are times when the issue comes up later in membership, if you want to be ‘served’ in some way by the pastors or evaluated for leadership positions.
January 31st, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Irv 53
I wondered what happened to you! It is so good to hear from you. I agree in your analysis of SGM being a cult. We had a close brush with another cult many years ago and SGM has many of the same distinctions, though they are craftier in their disguise. One of the hallmarks is worship of their ‘holy leader’. The only difference between the two groups is SGM churches don’t hang portraits of CJ in every office.(I hope!)
I do think Brent’s docs (and wikileaks) was really God putting a spotlight on CJ. Some people will continue to wear blinders but, many will break free, like us. So, be encouraged; all the testimonies and the time taken to share our thoughts on the blogs has not been a complete waste of time.
I personally do not think SGM will prosper but, I pray that the scales will fall off the eyes of all of those who continue to be deceived by Mr. Mahaney.
January 31st, 2012 at 1:59 pm
At TAG, they had baskets in the back of the building, where books were given out..the baskets were to accept donations/offerings. I dont know about in the Patton’s basement, in the very beginning, but I seem to remember at some point where they began passing a basket, because ti was just “easier for people that way”..I remember a discussion about whether to tithe on gross or net, and someone quoting Kenneth Copelend, saying, “Well which part do you want God to bless?”. Back in the 70′s, and very early 80′s everyone was big on “the rewards of tithing” from Malachi 3:10. Once CLC began their building project in the 80′s, every Sunday the worship time was mostly spent on “testimonies” about how individuals gave sacrificially and got a sudden raise, or unexpected money, etc. I suppose that building fund drive was so successful, they figured they could repeat at other locations. The building fund was “above and beyond” the regular tithe. :koolaid CJ needed everyone to sacrifice so he could have a basketball court for his office-you know, to study the Bible and pray for us sinners.
January 31st, 2012 at 2:43 pm
“We were; home group leaders, youth group leaders, ministry team leaders and basic schlubs who gave more than we should have to build that multi-million dollar building.”
@Light: I’m in your club too!
RE: Tithing — at two SGM churches (not CLC), tithing was definitely taught as a requisite during New Members class, with one lesson of the 10 weeks dedicated to it. And other giving requests were specifically called out to be, “above your tithe to your local church,” namely giving to PDI/SGM.
“ My husband even asked, “What if people still owe on their mortgages or car payments? Aren’t they obligated to pay down personal debt before giving above the tithe with offerings to the church”?”
That’s a good point, I remember feeling the same way at the time.
January 31st, 2012 at 2:53 pm
I do remember DA, at the time the abuse was discovered, had pledged a “standing commitment” to the building fund. The pastors so graciously released me from that commitment in my time of “self induced poverty”. Everyone was expected to have a commitment to the building fund, which was over and above the regular tithe.
January 31st, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Sounds to me that at some time along the way someone(s?) wanted (for the sake of the Gospel?)to build something for God. They looked at what was going on around them in Christendom and decided they wanted to be like “them.” They then decided how to get “there” by creating a “different” or “new” flavor of doctrine. They mixed and matched until -- VAVOOM! -- SGM. This seemed to be going on in the background, along with many other sad stories, while the flock is encouraged to just give and follow.
January 31st, 2012 at 3:15 pm
when the clc building fund was started, they challenged people to give a second tithe. those that pledged a second tithe were rewarded with a banquet at the four seasons. i remember bob weiner from maranatha speaking at clc and encouraging giving beyond the tithe…telling everyone his personal goal was to someday tithe 90%. we came away feeling that 10% was just the basics and there was an expectation of giving beyond that. i bought into that mindset at the time and i always gave a tithe and an additional offering every time we had a meeting where an offering was collected…..another thing that i’m being healed from…performance based acceptance…it was a feeling that you were someone special since you went above and beyond…
January 31st, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Tithing was definitely taught at my former SGM churches. They always said that it was the starting point for giving and encouraged giving above and beyond the tithe -- especially when it came time to raise funds for a building. There was a LOT of pressure to give sacrificially, and I have to say that I struggled with feeling resentful because we gave a large portion of our income to the building fund while our own house needed some major repairs done, not to mention the outstanding mortgage. And we had five young children to feed and clothe. We were still giving a large amount every month to the fund up until we left the church last year. The building still isn’t paid off, and our house still needs repairs and we’re driving around old junkers. I remember them parading people up on the stage on Sunday mornings who told about how they decided to give sacrificially to the building fund, and then they would have some kind of crazy wonderful thing happen, like someone would give them an all-expenses paid vacation to a luxury resort or something. No such luck for us!
January 31st, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Because discussions on the topic of tithing can get very heated, I’d ask that we try to police ourselves so that if anything else about the subject is posted, it would be directly connected in some fashion to SGM. If at all possible, I’d like to avoid the pitfalls of previous conversations, where folks posted lengthy treatises reflecting their opinions about what the Bible has to say about tithing and so forth.
The reality is that SGM’s issues are not caused by tithing. If you have arrived at the conviction that tithing is not a good practice for you, great. But if everybody in all of SGM were to arrive at that very same conviction, SGM’s problems would remain much the same.
Many Bible-believing, gospel-proclaiming, Jesus-following churches teach and practice tithing in some fashion and yet remain healthy, not descending into authoritarian spiritual abuse.
…just to clarify…
:D
…taking off my moderator hat now…
January 31st, 2012 at 3:24 pm
I remember SGM folks talking a lot about Randy Alcorn’s principles on giving. They were reading his books at the time.
January 31st, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Opps, 1 minute too late. Sorry Kris. :D
January 31st, 2012 at 3:38 pm
For the record, I know very little about Alcorn’s teaching on money. I haven’t read his books.
January 31st, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Kindred -
It’s all good. Your comment was directly connected to SGM. And it was brief.
I just get very uncomfortable (and, frankly, bored) when the discussion veers off into heated exchanges of opinion and Bible verses trying to “prove” that tithing is either mandated or archaic or somewhere in between. When money is involved, people get REALLY passionate.
And then in my view, the end result can make us all look unreasonable, as though we’re somehow blaming SGM’s woes on SGM’s teachings about tithing. The reality is that how SGM handles its appeals for money (in recent years, and on the surface, anyway) is fairly reasoned and reasonable in comparison to “normal” churches out there. What SGM teaches about money is NOT the cause of SGM’s troubles.
I don’t want us (or anybody who happens to stumble on the discussion here for the first time) to lose sight of that.
January 31st, 2012 at 3:46 pm
We were always told a raise was not to “increase your standard of living but your standard of giving”. Tithe living and active in Knoxville church. Also many testimonies of those who “give sacrificially”. Many will not have retirement bc of this teaching.
January 31st, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Kris #65.
You are correct, I think, but I’d add one other factor that I believe must influence people like DeYoung and Trueman. If either of them speak at CLC or an SGM conference or something similar, then they are speaking in front of hugely more people than they are used to. If memory serves DeYoung’s church gets maybe 600-700 people on a Sunday and Trueman’s maybe 200 (he’s OPC after all). So for guys like this to speak in front of (to them) a enormous number of people who seem to really like their teaching and then have hundreds of people buy their books has just got to make them feel good about the head guy cj.
I mean, if I were a Christian author, I’d think my own books were great and important to the future of the church and if someone like cj recommends them highly to thousands of people, then this is proof that cj is thinking correctly.
One thing about DeYoung, while I’m here. Kevin has a very open policy on people disagreeing with him on his blog. Basically, if people stay on topic and aren’t personally insulting to him, he’ll let people say what they want on his blog. It’s completely different to sgm’s policy.
January 31st, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Kris #91
I agree, SMG’s troubles are not caused by their teachings on tithes. However, when it comes to fund raising for building projects the manipulations that are common among the churches become evident in the way people feel pressured to give above what is sometimes in the best interest of their family. It is more of the “We are your anointed leaders, don’t question what or why, just do and you will receive approval.” Just more classic abuse of authority.
Just my thoughts…
January 31st, 2012 at 4:19 pm
Kris,
I think you are too generous in believing they don’t know what it’s like to be inside SGM. These Reformed ministries are all similar and there is a lot of cross-pollination. Your #2 reason is closer to the truth in my experience. It’s not necessarily “ego” in the sense of arrogance but these people have a lot of their self-identity wrapped up in being religious authorities. That self-image comes from membership in a mutual admiration society. If you don’t mutually admire then you are kicked out of the club.
I believe it’s really that simple.
January 31st, 2012 at 4:32 pm
NameGoesHere: @94
:word :goodpost
January 31st, 2012 at 5:02 pm
@Irv -- I’m thinking some people know anyway, so I can ask which church you were associated with and when you left SGM; also whether you think matters have improved, gone downhill or remained the same spiritually since you left? The latter question goes to whether or not ‘changes for the better’ are being made over time, even if not well-handled. I think you are saying they have remained the same …
Also, when you mentioned ‘former leaders’, I’m guessing you mean others who left or were forced out. I hope those who haven’t yet spoken out will do so. Your updated testimony/discernment is especially valuable because current and offered in the light of SGM’s recent report and actions. It isn’t a matter of persuading SGM (or anyone) but of ensuring that an honorable testimony for Jesus’ sake remains visible … and grows.
If SGM is indeed a cult, every person ever involved with it must speak out, leaders or not, as a simple expression of their own faithfulness to Him.
January 31st, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Kris #65:
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head Kris. IT’s the headiness of celebrity status even at the local church level. True, the celebrity part may be a little thin at the bottom, but hey, they can work their way up to the top and learn to write stacks of meaningless books which help virtually nobody on ther way up the ladder.
I addition to what you said, there’s also the exclusiveness of being in the “Clegy class”. They are afterall quite a bit above the laity and considerably more spiritual (in their eyes). Hence that authoritarian attidute and refusal to accept discussion or criticism from those of the lower class.
:beat
January 31st, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Are CJ’s Son Inlaws back to work? :worm
January 31st, 2012 at 7:53 pm
Kris #78
You said: “I would second what “Heavy Heart” shared, in that in our SGM experience of 5 or so years ago, Guy and I both thought that our SGM pastors were very low-key about money. I don’t recall tithing discussed much – maybe just once – and there weren’t any legalistic formulas, as best I can remember. This was over the span of a little less than a year, so I feel like we had a pretty good idea of where our SGM church stood when it came to money.
But, then again, we never became actual members. Maybe things change for members.”
Bingo Kris, ah so you and Guy were NOT actual members, and herein lies the rub…this explains much! THANKS for clearing that up, and helping me to clarify my information request.
Once again (but with slight modification/clarification), to actual (present or former) MEMBERS of TAG/PDI/SGM (especially CLC, the mother flag ship), who can tell me when they remember CJ and/or other so called apostles stating that: “unless you tithe 10% of your gross income you are sinning” or something like that: who said it, when did they teach it, was it a meeting and/or new members class, WHEN DID THIS BECOME FOUNDATIONAL TO NEW MEMBERS CLASS, etc? Any former/present CLC members out there?