I have to say, this blog has been a wild ride.
I began it with basically no “purpose” whatsoever, beyond providing a place to share my impressions of our Sovereign Grace experience. And since our experience had not involved anything particularly negative – or more importantly, anything definitively unscriptural – I had (as I’ve repeated ad infinitum) no ax to grind. I just thought there ought to be SOME place online where curious folks could read perhaps another perspective on what I thought of as Sovereign Grace’s “cultural oddities.”
But then a very surprising thing happened. This site began getting quite a few hits, and people began leaving comments about their own experiences with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Although these stories were all different as to details, most of them contained very similar trends. These trends were as follows:
- A person has a difference of opinion, a question, or a problem.
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As he’s been trained to do, he approaches leadership with this issue.
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Leadership is, for whatever reason, not receptive to this person’s point of view, or not equipped (in the professional sense) to deal with the person’s problem. (Here, actually, is where this process hangs on one rusty nail, like my dad would say. As satisfied SGM-ers have pointed out, oftentimes leadership IS approachable and happy to take a seemingly “negative” observation under advisement…or offers up approaches to the member’s problem that the member finds useful and acceptable. When this happens, all is well, and the rest of the steps do not occur. But when the observation is NOT well-received, or the member is NOT helped, we move on to step 4.)
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Since leadership did not receive the question or negative observation well, or since “indwelling sin” is essentially the only counseling tool in leadership’s toolbox, leadership turns things around and offers up “observations” of its own, directed at the questioning member’s motives, heart, and eventually, sinfulness.
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At this point, the member is left with two choices. Either he “receives” what leadership says and accepts leadership’s assessment of his sinful motives, or he holds out for his original point. Again, the SGM folks who are satisfied with their church’s structure have found themselves ending the process at this stage, if they weren’t already finished at step #3. However, if the member does NOT accept leadership’s assessment of his sinful motives, and if he does NOT choose to “repent” and give the issue a rest, then he moves on to step #6.
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Leadership gives the member something of an ultimatum. Either the member submits to what leadership says, or the member is placed on some sort of discipline plan. Failure to submit to the discipline plan will result in step #7.
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The member is disfellowshipped until he chooses to submit to leadership’s “restoration plan.”
After reading so many stories (stories either posted on the site or shared with me via email) that follow this same pattern, I’ve grown quite concerned that Sovereign Grace Ministries has what amounts to a “fatal design flaw” in how it handles conflicts between its members and its leadership. While I’ve sought to remain fair to SGM in everything I’ve written, I now have reached a point where I’m concerned enough to think that SGM members ought to share my alarm about their church’s discipline process and its potential to turn into a tool of spiritual abuse – since THEY (and not I) are still part of the system and could have a voice.
What’s been so interesting has been this site’s pro-SGM readers’ responses to my observations.
While I want to clearly state that many pro-SGM folks have been polite and kind and have engaged with the issues raised here, the majority have eventually turned the focus back around to either MY sinfulness or the sinfulness of the ex-SGM people who have shared their stories.
This is something that I don’t understand.
I particularly don’t understand those readers who find the site, read a few articles, and then barrel in to declare what a bad person I am, and how idiotic and sinful I must be for having a different view of their church organization than they have.
I mean, I don’t go around to pro-SGM blogs (and there are thousands out there) and leave comments about what fools they are for suffering a church structure that is so heavy on submitting to authority that it’s like a spiritual abuse train wreck waiting to happen. I don’t go looking for fights.
(But if I did…well, would I express my shock and dismay if other commenters on these “SGM Happy” sites would take exception to what I said? Would I post comments where I publicly licked my wounds and talked about what big, bad, mean people they were for daring to “fight back” and answer my accusations? No, I would not. And if I did, those pro-SGM folks would laugh me off the internet. As they rightfully should.)
Another thing that I don’t get is why the pro-SGM folks think that it is their right and their duty to offer me (and the other posters) spiritual guidance…especially when most of them barely bother to say “Hello” or “Nice to ‘meet’ you” before launching into their sermons. Again, I don’t go poking around THEIR blogs, spewing Scripture that discusses discernment, or Pharisaical tendencies, or legalism…and then expressing shocked dismay that they aren’t properly “loving their enemy” when they reject my abrupt rebukes.
I think what puzzles me most of all is, WHY is it such a big deal to these people that one tiny little blog – nestled among the thousands of pro-SGM blogs and sites out there – has been set up to provide a different view of SGM? Why is such vitriol and angst (always cloaked in “concern,” of course) directed my way? Why do I get the sense from these folks that it’s so vital that ZERO negative information be posted about Sovereign Grace? Why do these people think that their denomination – er, “family of churches” – is somehow deserving of total and unquestioning approval, with no dissent allowed?
I really don’t have the answers to these questions…except to say that possibly, the answer lies in what they’ve been taught to think the Christian life is supposed to look like. If the answer to every conflict is for the person beneath to submit and accept the point of view of the person in authority above them, and if the answer to every problem is to first of all obsess over one’s own contributing sinfulness, then I suppose I can understand the “advice” and “concern” various SGM folks have “shared” with me.
(I can’t help but wonder, though, if these people even realize how closely their responses to this blog follow the pattern that their leadership follows – as outlined through steps 1-7 above. Do they understand how their reactions and words here have served to validate and authenticate what people have described in their stories of spiritual abuse?)
Of course, according to Mahaney’s own teachings, SGM’s bottom-line answer to everything is that we’re supposed to submit to our authorities and offer them unquestioning allegiance, because this is simply our duty to make them successful in their role as leaders.
Since, following Mahaney’s logic, even Martin Luther and the other Reformers would have been “in sinful rebellion,” I guess I can understand why this blog bugs so many folks.
But it still doesn’t make much sense. Not in the real world.
I never got the "meeting" thing, either. 
January 21st, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Mahaz,
You said:
“Those who are not married, specifically older adults, seem to have a ‘mark’ upon them.”
My experience is that is true in many other churches, also. The pastors at my SG church have gone out of their way to make older singles feel part of the church. The pastors do hold us single men responsible for our unmarried state due to our lack of initiative, though. This idea may be the “mark” you are talking about, but if that mark helps us face our sin and deal with it, maybe it is worth it.
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 am
SGMsingle -
Um, I am puzzled by this sentence in your comment:
What sin could you possibly be talking about? Paul very clearly stated in I Corinthians 7 that if a Christian can remain single without encountering problems with lust, he (or she) should do so, as he will have an easier time devoting his life to the Lord.
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:15 am
Hi SGMsingle,
Thanks for your comments. I have seen an outreach to the singles and my local SGM church as well. My comment was specifically focused on the pressure applied in the courtship ideology. Though I understand it is to serve as a biblical “guide” and approach toward marriage, I have seen the concept taken to a legalistic extreme within the church. In fact, I have had a conversation with a Pastor of an SGM church about the tendency in our church culture to treat courtship as a “pre-engagement.” I believe this is very unhealthy.
Also, I do not see biblical justification in labeling someone in an unmarried state as sinful. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment.
Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 7:7-8, “I wish everyone could get along without marrying, just as I do. But we are not all the same. God gives some the gift of marriage, and to others he gives the gift of singleness. ”
Mahaz
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:19 am
Hi Everybody,
I’m will be interested to see the discussion comparing Mormon culture to SGM culture, because when I was in SGM, I had also thought it seemed very Mormon in many ways, but I was never involved in Mormonism so it’s interesting to read Mahaz’s remarks.
I did know some Mormons and they always had a “Family Night”, and the same kind of things was encouraged within SGM. SGM encouraged “Family Nights” and “Date Nights” (for just the married couples of course!), that struck me was being similar to what the Mormons practiced. In fact, I used to wonder if Carolyn Mahaney had come out of a Mormon background because of the way she seemed so attached to these kind of structures. She drove a car with a bumper sticker that read, “I Love My Family”.
I do think its interesting that so many people notice this about the culture of SGM. While I agree with Mahaz that, “there are aspects of the Mormon culture and the Sovereign Grace culture that serve our society well” in that it keeps people focused on essentially wholesome pursuits, I think its also harmful because it gives people the impression that being a Christian involves limiting the expression of one’s faith to SGM’s predefined modes that they dictate for you to follow.
Sure, Mormons can seem wholesome and law abiding, but their gospel has no power. In the same way Mormonism lacks power, so does SGM. You have form, but no power.
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:27 am
I be wary torry about the all those mistakes I be making in my posting above right now. I need to be sleeping and then I will go to bed, now. You all have fun and please forgive Claireon for her not being knowing how to talk and typing good.
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 am
Claireon…
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:44 am
Yes, the Mormon church has for years emphasized Monday evenings as “Family Home Evening” (FHE). I was shocked when I began to become immersed in my local Sovereign Grace Church to discover that many SGM families have designated Monday nights as their “Family nights!”
Is this bad? No! In fact, I think our society could do very well to designate times for family intimacy, particularly in light of our very hectic lives. Nevertheless, I do agree that anything that we do in life without Christ at the center lacks power for personal transformation. I pray that the families within SG that have taken upon these type of family traditions are doing so with God’s grace and the Holy Spirit’s power.
And yes, I would agree that Sovereign Grace Ministries as an organization, or a box, lacks power. However, I would also say that Billy Graham’s Evangelistic Outreach, or the Assemblies of God, the Presbyterians, the “Word-of-Faith” churches, or the Catholics all lack power if those who support their mission lose sight of the Great Commission through the personal work of the Holy Spirit, who endows us with power to be a witness for Christ and His gospel of grace.
Based upon the discussions in this blog and my own observations, I am very cautious of the cultural trends of SGM. However, I would like to make it clear that my caution stems only from a desire to seek the Living Christ before I seek an organization. However, I am convinced that as we press into our Resurrected Lord, He will direct us to a place of fellowship with other brothers and sisters in the family of God. At this point in my life, it happens to be at a Sovereign Grace Church.
I pray, believe, and know that He will direct the course of His universal body as He works through the imperfect local church.
Mahaz
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:01 am
Kris and Mahaz,
The sin I was referring to was “our unmarried state due to our lack of initiative”.
In other words, if we are unmarried because we are too lazy or scared to initiate a relationship, we are in sin.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:14 am
SGMsingle,
Very respectfully………..this is bunk.
Maybe if you’re not sharing the Gospel with people because you’re too lazy or scared, THAT might be a sin. But getting married? Nope.
The only Scriptural standard for sin in singleness is if you are deliberately not making effort to get married even as you succumb to the temptation of lust. Otherwise? The Bible almost has more directly positive things to say about singleness in relationship to your Christian experience than it says about marriage.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:30 am
gotta pipe in here…not a good argument. Being married or unmarried should in no way define being in sin. Unless, of course, you’re unmarried because you stay drunk all the time and like to beat people up random people…(a joke…kind of).
Being “scared” to initiate a relationship is a stretch. Does that just mean a “romantic relationship” or could it be any relationship? I’m “scared” to initiate a relationship with some folks – I know a guy who’s a much better golfer than I am, so I’m scared to play him. Is that sin?
Some people just aren’t cut out for marriage. Regardless of the reasons, and there are multiples, not being in a relationship does not equal being in sin. Some people truly enjoy the “single life” and all that it entails.
Don’t take this the wrong way SGMsingle, but I’m interested in hearing more about this. Perhaps it just reads wrong – are you referring to just the laziness part as the sin, or the not initiating a relationship part?
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:38 am
Mahaz,
I would agree with you that some of the overlapping characteristics of Mormonism and Sovereign Grace Ministries are actually wonderful things. There is nothing wrong with being family-oriented, or having family nights or date nights or whatever. There is nothing wrong with having a large family, or with women being homemakers. There is even nothing wrong with wanting to do courtship instead of date.
There’s nothing wrong with any of these things UNTIL it becomes difficult to distinguish them from the real tenets of one’s faith and not just something that one personally chooses to do to honor the Lord. And I think that that is where I saw things within SGM that made me nervous. Lawrence (and other posters) have said that I’ve created straw men with my generalizations about the Homeschooled Haleys and the Courtship Courtneys and the lack of marriages among the singles in the church we attended.
But I’ve always said that I was speaking in generalities, and that OBVIOUSLY, there would be exceptions. I believe that many SGM churches do not necessarily follow these patterns.
HOWEVER, when you get a “family of churches” that do exhibit major cultural trends like choosing courtship over dating (and I would CHALLENGE any naysayer on this one to point me to an SGM church that does NOT portray courtship as “wiser” or “more honoring to God” than dating), it’s basically inevitable that somewhere along the line, these things have been instituted in legalistic ways. Otherwise, given the wide range of personalities, more people would have deviated from those practices and the practices would not have become cultural norms.
I mean, unless courtship had been taught as “wiser,” “more Godly,” and simply a better way to find love than dating, you would not find an entire group of churches where this practice is the norm. Simple as that.
So when a behavioral practice NOT SPELLED OUT IN THE BIBLE is given this type of “unspoken doctrinal significance,” I think this is a problem. It’s a sign that SGM has created a narrower standard of desirable behaviors (“what honors God most”) than what the Bible calls for.
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:47 am
Guy,
Laziness and fear are sins. One way these sins can be displayed is by a single man not taking the initiative to start a romantic relationship. If that lack of initiative is BECAUSE of these sins, then the man is sinning by doing nothing.
I realize there are valid reasons for remaining single, and I personally believe I myself have valid reasons. I still need to keep in mind that all of my best intentions and actions are contaminated by sin in some way. That means I need to be suspicious of my own heart and motives, and to repent if I realize I am remaining single for the wrong reasons.
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:01 am
Kris,
You said:
“So when a behavioral practice NOT SPELLED OUT IN THE BIBLE is given this type of “unspoken doctrinal significance,” I think this is a problem. It’s a sign that SGM has created a narrower standard of desirable behaviors (“what honors God most”) that what the Bible calls for.”
Incredible insight…. truly incredible. In some ways, Kris, your comment has helped me more than you know! Though my time in SGM has been relatively short (approx 1 year), in that time, I have already adhered to “narrower standards of desirable behavior” that are not found in Scripture, but are found in my church culture. For the sake of anonymity, I won’t go into details, but I recently had a very painful experience as a result of my allegiance to one of these “unspoken doctrines” that are not clearly Biblical. It has been a true test of my faith.
I am thankful, however, that one of my Pastors at my local SGM church initiated a conversation with me where he admitted that our church’s cultural tendencies in a specific area contributed to some of the pain and confusion in this circumstance I was involved in. With true humility, he admitted his desire to be used of the Lord to bring some balance to this area of legalism (dysfunction) in our church.
As a result of this encounter, though painful, the wisdom and counsel I have received from my pastoral oversight has compelled me to stay plugged into this church.
I truly appreciate this blog. It is a wonderful sounding board. Thank you for your prayers and administrative efforts as it has attracted a large base of readers!
Blessings,
“Mahaz”
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:15 am
Steve,
You said,
“I think you put that correctly “one man.” Originally the leadership was set up more along the lines of a group of men sharing power vs. one man at a church having a lot of power (such as the senior position). I understand that some of the SG churches only have one pastor at them.”
By way of integrity, I need to clarify that my church DID have plurality of leadership. There wasn’t one pastor w/ oversight responsibilities for our church. What I was trying to communicate (but not have been very effective at … I’m on some heavy-duty pain meds today that have me in a bit of a cloud) … was that giving one man the power to determine when he “felt” my husband’s heart had been thoroughly “taken to task” (a Puritan cliche that was commonly used in our church) is very dangerous. I also think it plays into, what I believe is, a competition among pastors to somehow prove themselves to to those in authority over them that they are “unapologetically ruthless” (again, their term, not mine) in the dispensation of discipline.
Also, interesting discussion here on the parallels between Mormonism and Sovereign Grace Ministries. I think anytime man adds a lot of extra-biblical requirements to the gospel in an effort to keep people on the straight and narrow, you run the risk of setting up a “form of godliness” that denies God’s power.
I mean, it sort of stands to reason that if you have all of these people in your life pointing out your sin and questioning your motives; you home school your children and severely limit their interaction with the outside, unbelieving world; you don’t allow your children to leave the home (especially girls) until marriage; you have modesty checklists; you set up approved reading lists; you disallow members to have group Bible studies; etc., etc. … how much power do you really need?
As indicated by book titles such as The Enemy Within,” (an exposition on the writings of puritan John Owen, which SGM fully subscribes to) Sovereign Grace has completely minimized the validity of spiritual warfare in a Christian’s life. The enemy is no longer what we see identified in Eph 6 but our own evil hearts. And their panacea for that “lifelong battle” are the “means of grace” that we’ve identified over and over in this blog.
January 22nd, 2008 at 6:21 am
Dennis,
I was in a word of faith for 6 years. 5 fold ministry is no guarantee of balance. If it’s not the pastor it will be the prophet or apostle lording it over everybody. Everyone runs to them to get a word,then the pastor gets jealous. I have seen that to. Then of course the pastors wife gets involved because her husband isn’t center stage.
Then there’s AOG who doesn’t even recognize those giftings. I no longer buy into “offices” exist today but there are giftings in all 5 areas definately. Try and bring that into a house church and it will be a disaster. Been there done that in small groups in word of faith,people prophecying over each other….. but then the pastor stopped it because there was no supervision and he was right because it was incredibly screwed up.. people hearing what they want to hear.
In alot of ways I wish I were a cessionist I don’t know that I would have gotten so messed up in bad theology and churches. (Lord forgive me but he knows my heart ,and HE GAVE ME A NEW HEART FOR GOODNESS SAKES )
Third wave charismatics have alot to learn from the later rain crowd circa 1980′s but they are not listening. I stay clear because I know where they are headed.
Bapticostal,cal-armenia ( or whatever it’s called) without the patriarchy is the way to go for the future. If persecution gets so bad here in the US that we have to start meeting in houses so be it,but it better fit that model. First century has ALOT of holes in it and I’m not hanging with people that worship crystals on the side.
January 22nd, 2008 at 7:42 am
Re: Comments #159 and #160,
I hope it’s okay for me to pipe in here because I too am single!! (for my sins … wait, no … i didn’t mean that! ;)
Guy you wrote; “Don’t take this the wrong way SGMsingle, but I’m interested in hearing more about this. Perhaps it just reads wrong – are you referring to just the laziness part as the sin, or the not initiating a relationship part?
I would totally agree and concur with what SGM single responded to. There weren’t any explicit sermons in the SGM church about this, but while I was in SGM some of the young people from the church in Wales came back from New Attitude (the youth conference) and said that one of the sermons by Al Mohler was dedicated to “kicking the young men’s backsides” into gear and telling them to get out there and “find women”.
My question to that (which was never answered) was – well why then does Paul actually say that it is BETTER not to get married?
I appreciate that there may be some men who do resist getting married for more selfish reasons, but is this something that really needs to be preached at international conferences? Won’t there be a tempation to go to the other extreme (as we began seeing in the SGM churches in the UK) and seeing young couples getting married before they were ready?
PS: This is off-subject but I was reading about the discipline of the Lord last night in the Bible. It says that the Lord disciplines those He loves. Now I was never approached by the church leaders during my two years in the church until those final meetings where they drudged up their two years of concerns about me. Does that mean that they actually didn’t love me? Because if they did then why did they remain silent until it was too late? Just a wondering. Thoughts on a postcard.
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:41 am
Hi Everyone!
Similarities to the Mormon Church I see in SGM:
1. One central figure at the top (CJ)
2. A movement that evolves with special revelation given to their prophet , thus the swinging from heavily Charasmatic to more reformed.
3.Emphasis on performance and getting rid of sin
4.Little emphasis on the power of the Holy Spirit
5. Very little emphasis on spiritual warfare, but more on the believer’s sin being the culprit
6.Huge emphasis on family, courting, stay home moms, modesty, large families
7.All counsel is coming from within the church
8. Most fellowship takes place within the church and other member’s homes
9. Group think mentality mandated from the those in leadership
10. Higher up you go in leadership, the more you know
11. Demotivational management of one’s hearts (type of brain washing CD brought up)
12. One translation of the Bible strongly encouraged from the top (ESV)
13.Children raised in the movement, can’t think outside the box
14.Extra books added to the Bible and strongly encouraged to read
15. Special language that you only hear at SGM.. How can I serve you! What are some Evidences of grace that you see in my life? Can I bring you an observation? We will be having a MEET-ing! WE will be a reading church! etc. etc.
16.Girls encouraged to marry young and within the church
17.Very tired and overworked women, and a bunch of just really nice guys
( no wild adventurous types…. no room for “wild at hearts”. Maybe singing Karyoke is wild though!:D
18.Similar unspoken laws: don’t talk, think or feel
19.Controlling spirit in the air
20. Twisting of Scripture to make their point
These were just a few that I could come up with. Did I miss any?
January 22nd, 2008 at 9:46 am
Oh…I forgot one… the shunning when you leave!;-)
January 22nd, 2008 at 10:27 am
Hi Kelly,
Thanks you for your imput. I can appreciate all of your concerns. I still believe in the 5 fold minisrty and in house church. It is NOT about authority, it is about equipping the saints. NOBODY should be lording it over anyone! We are all equal in authority. It is not a hierarchy. Here is the link to an excellent FREE book on house churches and the 5 fold ministry.
http://www.dawnministries.org/freedownloads/additionalbooks/housesthatchangetheworld/view
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:11 am
Hi all,
I think we all agree on what church sould NOT be. Controlling, manipulative, authoritative, domineering, abusive, condemning, judgemental, exclusive, elitist, etc etc. For what it is worth, here is how I see how it should be when we come together before the Lord to gather in HIS Name. If I have a teaching, I should be free to share it. If you disagree with my teaching, you need to be free to say it was a bunch of bologna, There needs to be open and free discussion about the teaching, prophecy, worship etc. All are free to participate in whatever calings and giftings that the Lord has given. The body needs to be able to funtion as a WHOLE, not one member dominating the entire meeting.
My teaching might last 10 – 15 minutes. Anyone can interrupt me ant ANY time to ask a question or refute what I am saying. There may be 2 or 3 others who also have a teaching or a prophetic insight into the word, while the others judge what is being said (1 Cor 14). There is a time for all to pray out loud for whatever the Lord has put on their hearts. God is a God of order. So the elders, those who are mature in the Lord and called to be overseeres, encourage us to stay focused on the Lord and to keep things in order. But never in a domineering fashion, always with gentleness and kindness. And we are free to disagree with each other on any point at any time.
It is a TRUE family get together just like a big family at meal time. ALL are allowed to talk and share what is on their heart.
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:31 am
Dennis,
I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. If I were in an area of this country where I had no other choice like rural and wilderness areas I would definately consider it. But then I’d worry about the isolation and lack of solid input from others.
I’m not trying to cause a problem I’m just trying to avoid people having to be re-discipled in 10 years if it goes wrong.
January 22nd, 2008 at 11:33 am
Wow, excellent thoughts, everybody.
Mahaz, I’m so glad that you are having an experience where your pastor has responded to your concerns. One of the things I’ve tried to say, over and over again, is that within SGM, there are obviously many wonderful, sincere, well-meaning, and responsive pastors who DO wish to humbly serve their people. It’s great to hear a report about one of them…and that somebody “official” within SGM will actually talk openly about legalism.
You may not wish to share this, but I’m sure others would be interested in hearing a little of your journey from the Mormon church to SGM.
SGM Casualty, I think you just summed up two of the biggest issues that people have discussed here – the overwhelming emphasis on “the enemy within” (at the expense of acknowledging the enemy without), and the “ruthless” discipline. I am curious about why being “ruthless” about discipline would seem even remotely desirable to a pastor? I would think that any pastor who actually lives with a consciousness of his own sinfulness would approach church discipline with a tremendous amount of hesitation, fear, and trembling. After all, if one knows one is sinful, how can one be absolutely certain that at least some of one’s perceptions of another person are not tainted by one’s own sin? Or even some of one’s own desire to discipline the person in the first place? (This sort of goes back to how I view the practice of “bringing observations” as practically the antithesis of true humility.)
Kelly, I agree with you about how sometimes, it’d be so much easier to just be a cessationist!! Prior to our SGM experience, we spent several years in a church where the pastor was regarded as “a true prophet.” For a long while, we believed in his “prophetic gifting” right with everybody else…and he no doubt did deliver some true prophecies along the way…but in the end, it was just WAY too confusing to muddle through what was true and what wasn’t, because everything was presented as, “Thus saith the Lord thy God unto thee…” (Yes, God apparently speaks in King James English! :-) )
Dan, I am baffled right along with you about why singleness has been preached against at SGM in recent years. It’s almost like they go from one extreme to the other with some of these things. I can see how marriage is a good thing for most people, but if it really were that vital for everybody, the Bible wouldn’t contain so many passages that extol the good parts of singleness.
Freeda, your list about the similarities between Mormonism and SGM is interesting. One thing I’d have to say, though, is that the Mormons I’ve known are MUCH more connected than SGM folks with the communities they live in. Most of the Mormons I know have their kids in public schools, where their kids are often the star students (and great examples for their church). Although they seem to have their closest friendships within their church, they still associate with people from their neighborhoods in ways that at least my SG friends did not. In that way, SGM folks are even more segregated from the rest of society than Mormons are. (And yes, I know there are exceptions! I’m just speaking from my own limited experience, where the SG folks I knew were freaked at the thought of their kids riding their bikes with the other children in the neighborhood. It seemed so oddly fear-based.)
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Kris,
Actually, CJ himself has devoted quite a bit of energy to talking about the dangers of legalism. I think members of some of his churches would do quite well to listen to and meditate on a sermon he preached called, “Enjoying Grace and Detecting Legalism.”
In it, C.J. cited seven evidences of legalism:
1. You are more aware of and affected by your past sin than you are the finished work of Jesus Christ. You are paralyzed by condemnation.
2. You are more aware of areas in which you need to grow than of the cross – you are more aware of what you are presently doing than of what Christ has done for you, and whatever you are doing, you feel that it is not enough.
3. You live thinking, feeling, and believing that God is disappointed in you and not delighting you.
4. You assume God’s acceptance is dependent on your obedience, so you make a list of things to do, often Biblical directives. But beware – the study of the Bible is never a basis for God’s acceptance of you, nor are any other spiritual disciplines.
5. You consistently experience condemnation. The way out of condemnation is actually to be less aware of our sin and more aware of what Christ has done for us.
6. You have an undue concern for what people think, motivated by pride.
7. You lack joy.
In the sermon, CJ talks about “spinning the plates of legalism.” It is quite a compelling sermon, and can be found on the Sovereign Grace website.
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:11 pm
re: #162
SGMsingle said:
“Laziness and fear are sins. One way these sins can be displayed is by a single man not taking the initiative to start a romantic relationship. If that lack of initiative is BECAUSE of these sins, then the man is sinning by doing nothing.
I realize there are valid reasons for remaining single, and I personally believe I myself have valid reasons. I still need to keep in mind that all of my best intentions and actions are contaminated by sin in some way. That means I need to be suspicious of my own heart and motives, and to repent if I realize I am remaining single for the wrong reasons.”
How can the man be sinning by doing nothing unless the Holy Spirit has placed it in his heart that he is marry a certain person? (and I’m not talking about some nut that gets it in his head that a certain someone is “the one” no matter what the woman says…) It’s not like you should just go out fishing, hoping to see what gets caught on the hook….
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Hi Kris,
When I speak of the prophetic, I am not talking about “Thus saith the Lord”. I am speaking of the things that are bing discussed right here on this site. People’s eyes are being opened! That is the prophetic! Being able to SEE and UNDERSTAND and DISCERN spiritual maladies and abususes. Being able to call a spade a spade. Knowing what God’s heart is concerning a matter. TRUELY understanding and applying the word of God through a word of knowlwdge or a word of wisdom. There is MUCH of this taking place right here on this web site. We are BEING and HAVING church, right here as we all come together to discuss these very important SGM issues. EVERYONE is free to express what exactly is on their heart and what the Lord has revealed to them, without fear of rejection or condemnation! Isn’t that wonderful! You don’t get to experience that very much within the 4 walls of most church buildings. It is not about “house church” – it is about FREEDOM IN CHRIST, wherever that can be found! Many are finding that freedom RIGHT HERE!
Thank you again Kris for the wonderful job you are doing in moderating this site. So many are being blessed. To God be the Glory for what He is doing here through you and all the others who are participating. This is wonderful!
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Dennis,
Thanks for your kind words. I do understand what you are saying about the prophetic, and your thoughts about “having church.” I’m just not at that place where I think we should feel compelled to give up the many good aspects of “church as an organized institution.”
I realize that the term “prophecy” can mean different things to different people. At SGM, “prophecy” seemed to mean when people felt led to read certain passages of Scripture. I had no idea, in fact, that this was considered “prophecy” until someone once talked about how great it was that “the gift of prophecy” had been so active in a meeting when several people had gone to the microphone to read their Bibles to us.
Finally, “prophecy” can have an even more general meaning, as you use the term.
I am encouraged by how much thought and analysis you’ve given your own church struggles, Dennis. I appreciate your different point of view, and I think you have given us much that is thought-provoking.
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Hi Kelli,
You said, “I’m not trying to cause a problem I’m just trying to avoid people having to be re-discipled in 10 years if it goes wrong.”
We are all being re discipled right here on this web site! I think that God is always having to re-disciple us. Everyone has been through bad chuch experiences and wrong doctrines. “Churches” go wrong all the time. I have never found one that is right, including house churches. This site is the best fellowship I have had compared to any church I ever attended! So again, it is NOT about house church, it is about FREEDOM in Christ! Free to be exactly what God has made me, and free to function accordingly. Just try to picture what it would be like for all of us on this web site to come together for fellowship. That to me is what the church should look like when we get together.
We don’t have to agree whether the gifts are still in operation today! We don’t need to divide over that. We can study it, discuss it,. pray about it etc together and agree to disagree when necessary, just like we are all doing here. Isn’t it great!
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Hi Kris,
Thanks for the reply. It is very obvoious, that we are all a work in progress. We are encouraging and sharpening one another in love. There are great insights to be found here on this site. I have learned so very much over the past several weeks. I am still utterly amazed at what God is doing here! We are all learning much about grace, mercy and healing. Deprogramming can be a long and painful process, but the end fruit is FREEDOM. Gal 5 says it is for FREEDOM that Christ has set us FREE!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Hi Kris,
I wanted to confirm what you said about the abuses in the prophetic realm. There is so much nonsennse and pablum, that most people would rather not mess with it at all. My wife and I have heard some very nastly and harmful “prophecies” over the years. It seems like most of the “Thus saith the Lord” is really “Thus saith my religious imagination”. Some of us just love to look and sound spiritual! That is why people need to be able to freely say “Thus saith the congregation – Please sit down and shut up!”
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Dennis -
Your line is hilarious: “Thus saith the Lord” is really “Thus saith my religious imagination.”
January 22nd, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Hi SGMSingle -
It just strikes me that the constant “being contaminated by sin in some way” is a recurring theme that doesn’t seem to be grounded in freedom. If I walk around all day focusing on my failures (i.e., sin), then it probably won’t be long before I realize that I’m worthless and shouldn’t be allowed to continue to walk. What is that witness? I can’t very well share the Gospel to folks that need it, because they’re going to look at me and say, “well…it didn’t do him a lot of good” and run the other way.
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Hi Guy,
You are so right. Why all of this morbid preoccupation with “indwelling sin.” The bible teaches us that we have been crucified with Christ, buried with Him in baptism, and raised to a newness of life in the Holy Spirit. Don’t they believe Jesus when He said from the cross, “It is finished”. Does SGM want to help God out and ADD to His already finished work?
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Dear Guy behind the scene,
“If I walk around all day focusing on my failures (i.e., sin), then it probably won’t be long before I realize that I’m worthless and shouldn’t be allowed to continue to walk. ”
My husband equates it to being on a diet and studying a Pizza Hut menu for support.
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:20 pm
So, I’m curious in regards to post 162, what is the label of the sin for a woman who is single above the age of 25 or whatever the common age is to be married within the SGM church? Or, is it a sin for the woman?
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Kris -
You asked for my testimony on coming out of Mormonism into SG. Well, I have posted below my spiritual story. Please keep in mind that I wrote a good portion of this while I was outside of any fellowship with believers, and therefore, some of it may come across as a bit cynical. Nevertheless, I have amended parts of the story toward the end to show how I eventually landed in a Sovereign Grace Church.
______________________________________________________________________________
My mother and father were raised in nominal Christian families in a wealthy New England suburb. As they entered adulthood, they embraced an eclectic mix of alternative spirituality, eventually attending Maharishi International University, founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. This balding, white-bearded, guru helped popularize Hindu practice in America through the introduction of Transcendental Meditation.
As a young child, I recall my father recounting stories of traveling to France, where he participated in a Transcendental Meditation program that taught TM students the ability to levitate. As a young boy, I was fascinated that my father could fly! This TM-Sidhi Program, or Yogic-Flying, is believed by devotees to manifest a Maharishi Effect, exerting a positive influence on society and the individual practitioner.
This ethereal practice had little positive influence on my parents relationship. Shortly after my third birthday, Mom and Dad finally divorced after many unhappy years of marriage. Custody of the four children in my family was granted to my mother. We would spend alternating weekends with my father.
When I was five years old, my father attended a Christian church with his new girlfriend. This Pentecostal Church of the Foursquare Gospel was unlike any congregation he had ever visited. During the musical portion of worship, people danced, clapped, cried, and spoke in unknown tongues that were thought to be a heavenly language endowed upon believers by the third member of the trinity, the Holy Spirit. Words of prophecy were spoken in these services. Gifted individuals in the congregation, believing to possess a prophetic mantle, were the mouthpieces of God on earth. They gave direction, clarification, and encouragement. My father, already prone to mystical experiences, found a new home. He became a tongue-talking, bible thumping, Holy Spirit filled, Born Again Christian. He did not completely absolve himself of his eastern meditation practices, incidentally. He simply applied a different label. In 1986, Dad remarried an evangelical Christian who was an elementary school teacher and sixteen years his younger. My stepmother was a zealous Pentecostal that eventually left her teaching career to pursue full time ministry. She was known as a witty bible teacher, evangelist, and prophetess. They divorced seventeen years later.
My father and stepmother’s religious fanaticism disgusted my mother. She became more indignant as they began a pattern that would last throughout my childhood of evading financial responsibility. My mother was forced to assume the role of sole provider, becoming a model, and later a successful businesswoman. Being the youngest of the four children, this is the mother I knew: beautiful, strong, independent, and extremely critical. Gone was the nurturing homemaker I heard about from my siblings. In 1987, my mother also remarried. My stepfather was a successful Architect, lover of classical music, theatre, and an agnostic. An honest, hard working, ethical man that valued education, Ken became my father figure. He made his best, and often unsuccessful attempts, at being rational when my mother’s emotions erupted violently. They also divorced seventeen years later.
As a child, my loyalties were divided between Ken and my biological father. I became an ardent music student, spending a large portion of my childhood involved in musical activities, and pursuing the mastery of the Saxophone, the instrument my step-father played in his youth. I became indoctrinated in religious fanaticism shortly after my biological father’s conversion. My childhood was a war between religion and reason.
At six years old, I said the Sinner’s Prayer and became a Born Again Christian, and was heavily influenced by the ultra-charismatic segment of the church.
I saw an angel and demon at an age when most children still have imaginary friends. The angel was, ironically, at my mother and stepfather’s house. He had golden hair, a white flowing robe, and stood about eight feet tall. I knew that the angel was there to protect me from the hordes of demons that possessed the bodies of my unsaved mother and stepfather. I saw the demon in my father’s car. Another irony. This demon, with a gnarled and bloody face, was sitting in the backseat of my father’s green station wagon. My dad approved of and encouraged these visions, and taught me how to expel the demons set on attacking me. He was proud to know that his youngest son had a supernatural gift with the ability to see into the spirit world.
I was fascinated with God, angels, demons, heaven, and hell. On some weekends with my father, I would fall asleep listening to testimonies of people who had near death experiences, visited a literal hell, and returned to warn people about it. Hell was a torturous place where homosexuals were chained together in a lake of fire, and people like my stepfather who had not accepted Jesus, were speared in the chest for eternity by scoffing demons. I was told and believed that Scientists had dug a hole to the center of the earth and recorded voices screaming in agony, thus proving the existence of Hell. At my father’s Pentecostal church, during several services over the course of a year, the Pastor lowered the lights and played recordings of these screaming voices. He would then use the recording as an opportunity to call people to Jesus’s saving grace.
Heaven was a much better place. It was the place I would go if I did not lose my salvation. I often watched a videotape of a man who claimed to have visited heaven when he was eight years old. The streets were paved with gold. The animals spoke. Heaven was filled with mansions, sweet smelling aromas, and angels with swords of fire surrounding the throne of God. The man who claimed to have this vision would revisit my life years later.
I brought my bible to elementary school and wore Christian t-shirts. One had a picture of a fish swimming against the tide. The shirt read, “Go Against the Flow.” The other shirt had a picture of an American Express Card, but was cleverly renamed, “Salvation Express. Don’t Leave Earth Without It.” Instead of a soldier with headgear commonly seen on American Express Cards, Jesus Christ with a crown of thorns was pictured on this “Salvation Express Card.” I wore those shirts with pride.
Rapture doctrine held a firm grasp on evangelical Christians in the late 1980s. The rapture is a belief that Jesus Christ will return and rescue faithful Christians from a painful time of tribulation preceding the end of the world. In 1988, a book was written called 88 Reasons Why The Rapture Could Be In 1988. My father and stepmother believed this book, and I became convinced, at eight years of age, that I would celebrate my ninth birthday in Heaven. No such luck.
The painful reality of life smacked me in the face at ten years old when my father and stepmother moved out of the city in which I lived. Their departure evoked many tears. They began a ministry endeavor, touring the United States with an evangelist who specialized in current events, prophesying the second coming of Jesus Christ and the end of the world. It was 1990 and the beginning of the gulf war.
I had the opportunity to spend an occasional weekend and summer break with my father during this time. This is when I learned that George Herbert Walker Bush was promoting a New World Order that would usher in the Anti-Christ, who some speculated to be Henry Kissinger, the German born American Diplomat. The rapture was still pending, and could happen at any time. Our society would become cashless, and all transactions would be processed via an electronic chip implanted on a person’s wrist or forehead. For those who refused the chip, beheading would soon follow.
At one of my father’s religious meetings in a small mountain community in northern New Mexico, I recall walking outside for a breath of fresh air. It was about 2 o’clock in the afternoon, and the sky was dark with ominous clouds and lightening on the horizon. I walked to the center of a field next to the home in which the meeting was being held, and prayed that lightening would strike. I was sure of my salvation, and wanted to die and enter heaven before I lost my salvation or the minions of hell descended upon the earth to usher in the Great Tribulation.
After that trip, I returned home to my mother and stepfather. Mom tried to hug me, but I resisted. I thought that she was full of the devil, literally. She often wondered why I resisted her attempts to show affection.
As my father and stepmother continued on the ministry road, I entered junior high. With my father’s evangelical Christian influence distanced, we occasionally attended the Church of Christ, Scientist. Christian Science, founded by Mary Baker Eddy in the late 19th century, focuses on bodily healing through divine science. The church has a strong metaphysical approach to religion and liberal interpretation of scripture. At other times, we attended the Church of Religious Science. Founded by Dr. Ernest Holmes, the Church of Religious Science is a New Thought movement focusing on the intelligence of God and manifestations of a divine presence within the diversity of faith traditions. As a family, we were not fully devoted to either of these organizations.
Junior high was a period of artistic growth. I became very involved in choir, theatre, and continuing education through band and private lessons on the Saxophone. For a few years, I was free from the overt religious indoctrination of my earlier, formative years. I received letters from my father occasionally, but he was mostly absent from my life. My mother and stepfather were very supportive of my extracurricular pursuits. These were mostly happy years.
When I was in the fifth grade, I had received a Book of Mormon from a classmate. A Navajo named Joe gave me the book, and I soon learned the Mormon theology that Joe was actually descended from a rebellious tribe, called the “Lamanites,” who would become “white and delightsome” as they accepted the Mormon gospel. Through middle school, I read the Book of Mormon in entirety.
My freshman year of high school, I became good friends with another member of the LDS church. Eventually, I was invited to meet with Mormon missionaries. Brian Jones, one of the missionaries, baptized me into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, aka The Mormon Church, on July 16th, 1995. I had spent the better part of my freshman year of high school investigating this new religion. I formed a friendship with Mitchell Smith, a Latter-day Saint and fellow member of the high school band. His family expressed a very genuine interest in me. I spent many nights at the Smith household asking questions about Mormonism. Eventually, my curiosity propelled the Smiths to invite me to their church.
The first Sunday I attended was a Stake Conference, a large gathering of smaller, local congregations (wards) throughout the area. I was instantly attracted by the appearance of the Mormon people. They dressed well, smiled, shook hands, hugged, patted each other on the back, and sang hymns with great gusto. My childhood experience in the extreme emotionalism of the Pentecostal church made the Latter-day Saint worship appear tame and refined.
I recall one of the leaders of the Stake giving his testimony about the truthfulness of the LDS church. During this testimony, he began to shed tears. I was impressed that such a professional looking man could express such deep emotion. The service ended with the popular hymn, How Great Thou Art. I left the service that Sunday knowing I wanted to become a Mormon.
In those days, in order to join the Mormon Church, the investigator was required to take a series of discussions with church missionaries. The missionary force was composed of mostly nineteen to twenty-one year old men. Two elders, as the young men are called, taught me the series of lessons over the course of several months. After reading the Book of Mormon and completing the discussions, I prayed that God would give me an indication on whether or not to join. I recall being overcome with deep emotion, and felt strongly that I had found religious truth in its most pure form. I asked the missionary, Brian, to baptize me.
My entire family was extremely concerned with my decision to join the Mormon Church. My absent father and stepmother were suddenly not so absent anymore, and moved back to the city in which I lived. During one particularly loving father-son encounter, Dad said, “Son, if you die today, you will end up in Hell.” My mother and stepfather were perplexed and concerned, and yet respected my decision, and even attended my baptism service.
A few months after my baptism, I was overcome with an awareness of sin in my life. Nevertheless, I believed that if I prayed hard enough, and was the best Mormon possible, somehow God would overlook any sinful tendencies, which incidentally included drinking iced tea and coffee. I attended early morning seminary, and became class President. My sights were set on serving a mission, like Brian, the missionary who baptized me, after graduating high school.
I became a very serious (and legalistic) individual during this time. I remember feelings of great pain and remorse when my stepfather, Ken, said to me, “what happened to the care free kid I used to know?” I loved Ken so much, and hated to disappoint him.
The strained relationship with my biological father continued, but during my junior year of high school, I found literature debunking the LDS church by Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s “Lighthouse Ministry” based in Salt Lake City. This “anti-mormon” literature was akin to pornography by faithful members of the church. I became confused, sad, and angry. I spent more and more time at the Smith household, seeking prayers and blessings from David Smith, Mitchell’s father. I was encouraged by members of the Mormon Church who confirmed how righteous I was, stating that the adversary (Satan) was focused on me because of my spiritual strength.
One late afternoon during my sophomore year of high school, finishing a long and stressful day, I believed I saw another angel. This angel, Moroni, was the divine being that visited the founder of the Latter-day Saint church, Joseph Smith, and revealed the contents of the Book of Mormon. I was comforted by this angelic presence, and I communicated with him my devotion to the Church.
In January of 1997, being my junior year of high school, I experienced a panic attack in the middle of the night. I began to fear for my life, and became convinced that if I died, I would spend eternity in Hell. Several days later, I visited my father and stepmother, and informed them of my decision to leave the Mormon Church. They, of course, were elated.
That night, I requested prayer from them. As they prayed, I began to shake violently, with tears streaming down my face. My dad believed that Moroni, the angel whom I believed to be my companion, was actually a demonic entity. My father began the first of what would become many encounters with exorcism over the course of the next few years. That night, after the passionate prayers and exorcism, I rededicated my life to Jesus Christ. I was Born Again, again. (Or at least, that was my theological understanding at the time).
With my father and stepmother’s help, I discarded all Mormon material that I had accumulated over the last two years. We ceremoniously ripped and burned the material. I made the announcement to the Smiths that I desired to leave the church. Word spread throughout the Mormon congregation like wildfire. I received tear-soaked letters, visits, and phone calls. One individual said, “With you wanting to leave the church, it is like we have experienced a death in the family.”
I composed a letter to my Mormon Bishop, stating the reasons for requesting that my name be removed from the records of the LDS Church. He responded that, due to the fact that I was not eighteen, he could not remove my name from church records without approval of David Smith. I decided it was not worth the effort, and ceased my efforts. Over the course of the next three years, I would return to the Mormon Church occasionally, trying to re-create the euphoric experience I encountered when first converting at fifteen years of age. It never happened.
My returned with full force to the Pentecostalism of my youth. My senior year of high school, the church I attended experienced a revival/renewal (associated with the Toronto Blessing). During these services people fell into trances, they shook on the floor, they laughed uncontrollably. I experienced visions of my future and was give “prophetic words” that my life was destined for full time ministry. My senior year of high school, while watching Benny Hinn on television, I experienced an improvement in vision after reaching my hands out to the television set as an act of faith in prayer. I went to my mother and Ken, claiming that I had been miraculously healed. Perhaps with this information, they would finally believe in Jesus! Indeed, the eye doctor confirmed that a slight improvement in vision had occurred. I discarded my glasses and contacts, though struggling for years after to read and see long distance, eventually returning to wearing glasses.
I was very successful in my Saxophone performance that year, and earned a scholarship to attend the local university. College would be paid in full. Though I cherished my saxophone and music, I was convinced that my life was destined for a higher purpose. I began listening to tapes of the man who claimed to visit Heaven when he was eight years old. I discovered that he was the founder of an unaccredited Bible School in Southern California. I applied and was accepted.
This was out of the question to my mother and stepfather. Our relationship was extremely tense, and I was convinced that Satan was using them to try to prevent me from fulfilling my destiny. This was confirmed when Ken, my stepfather whom I loved deeply, in a fit of rage and cursing at the dinner table called me a hypocrite. Because of our strained relationship and religious extremism, I was placed in therapy. This did not last long, and I was convinced it was another ploy of the devil to keep me from fulfilling my calling.
The summer after my graduation, I let my mother and stepfather believe that I had completed all the necessary paperwork to begin school at the university in the fall. In mid-June, they discovered that I had not. They knew I wanted to attend Bible College, and did not support these aspirations. My stepfather demanded that I return my professional model Saxophone and vehicle. I did so, and while my brother was driving me to my father and stepmother’s house, he punched the windshield of his vehicle, causing it to crack.
My relationship with my mother and stepfather ceased, and I was encouraged by my father and stepmother to pursue Bible College in Southern California. They purchased a plane ticket for me, and I made arrangements to leave. The night before leaving, I sent an email to friends and family, advising them of my intent to pursue a life of ministry. At midnight, there was a loud knock on the door. Friends that received this email gathered together with Mitchell Smith’s father, David. My father answered the door, and I listened from the bedroom, shaking and crying. David was concerned about my emotional state, and wanted to speak with me before I left. My father would not allow it. David became angry and said that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would not condone my actions. He asked of my father that I request permanent removal from church records. I complied with his request.
When I arrived in Southern California, I received an email from David, expressing his disappointment saying, “I wish you the best in the level of mediocrity you have embraced.” My mother and Ken did not know I had left my hometown until I called from a pay phone upon arrival in Southern California. We did not speak for over a year.
The spiritual abuse continued in Bible College. I was the recipient of exorcism prayers on numerous occasions. These exorcism sessions included being held down by six men, while the Pastor sat on my chest and attempted to cast out hosts of demonic entities.
This college taught a doctrine called “Warfare Tongues.” We were taught to combat spiritual entities through hours of loud, boisterous, prayers in English and our unknown tongues. We were encouraged to give our money through tithes and offerings. I emptied my bank account several times giving everything I had to the church while going hungry for days, believing that I would have a “ten fold” return on the money given. We were taught that the more money we gave, the more money we would receive through divine sources.
My second year of Bible school, my father and stepmother moved to Southern California to be a part of the congregation. Half way through the year, I quit school and fell into a deep depression that lasted for months. I demonstrated odd behavior at times, once being found hiding in a closet underneath a pile of clothes.
During this depressive state, I made contact with a former Saxophone teacher from my high school years. I decided to return to my hometown to pursue a music education degree. I made great strides musically, but internally was battling with thoughts that I had failed and thwarted my destiny by dropping out of Bible school. I became, once again, very depressed and dropped out of the university.
I returned to Southern California to finish my religious education. In December of 2001, a scandal rocked the church, and the Pastor that I listened to as a little boy, claiming to visit Heaven, was revealed to have been engaging in a homosexual affair with the youth pastor. I was devastated.
I moved states to attend a church that had been started by a former assistant Pastor who had been ousted from the congregation in California. There were several “damaged sheep” that came to this congregation after the church split. Eventually, both sets of parents divorced.
Over the last seven years I have worked in a field of business that has been very suitable for me. I made another effort toward ministry about three years ago, and attended a moderate Assembly of God congregation while volunteering with a missionary organization called Gospel for Asia. During this time, I began studying Islam. I read the Quran, and attended a Mosque on a few occasions. Eventually, I dropped out of the church scene all together, and convinced myself and others around me that I was no longer a Christian. I occasionally attended a Unitarian church.
I began to identify with Robert Ingersoll, a Humanist, who said the following in a document called The Liberty of All, written in 1877:
“If there is a God who will damn his children forever, I would rather go to hell than to go to heaven and keep the society of such an infamous tyrant. I make my choice now. I despise that doctrine. It has covered the cheeks of this world with tears. It has polluted the hearts of children, and poisoned the imaginations of men. It has been a constant pain, a perpetual terror to every good man and woman and child. It has filled the good with horror and with fear; but it has had no effect upon the infamous and base. It has wrung the hearts of the tender, it has furrowed the cheeks of the good.
This doctrine never should be preached again. What right have you, sir, Mr. clergyman, you, minister of the gospel to stand at the portals of the tomb, at the vestibule of eternity, and fill the future with horror and with fear? I do not believe this doctrine, neither do you. If you did, you could not sleep one moment. Any man who believes it, and has within his breast a decent, throbbing heart, will go insane. A man who believes that doctrine and does not go insane has the heart of a snake and the conscience of a hyena.”
While in the height of unbelief, I became acquainted with a Pastor and his family that were affiliated with Sovereign Grace. They eventually invited me to attend church, though I struggled internally on whether to attend. It was at this Sovereign Grace Church that for the first time in my life I truly understood grace. Over the last year, I have begun to understand the importance of sound teaching, and am grateful not to be in a congregation with some of the charismatic excesses that I remember from my childhood.
It was at Sovereign Grace Church that Jesus Christ, though He had never left me, showed himself afresh to me as my only Savior.
As the hymn, Rock of Ages, says:
Could my zeal no respite know
Could my tears forever flow
All for sin could not atone
Thou must save and thou alone
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Mahaz,
One thing I need to mention about CJ’s points you list above is that he seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. Preaching against legalism is awesome, but is it very effective if this type of sermon is followed by a talk about something like a “Modesty Checklist”?
Can you have it both ways, so to speak?
I don’t think the anti-legalism talk will have any “teeth” to it unless it includes specifics anyway. Until it addresses people’s tendencies to put too much stock into things like “courtship” – until CJ speaks out against some of Sovereign Grace’s own sacred cows like courtship and homeschooling – most SG people in his audiences are going to be sitting there thinking that little of this applies to them.
His point #4 seems particularly ironic, in light of SGM’s clearly demonstrated “culture” of depending on systems and checklists:
I can appreciate that he’s addressing legalism as something to avoid. But without clear examples – such as tackling exactly how something like a “Modesty Checklist” could so easily become a prime example of the very thing he’s discussing in point #4 – it seems like a sermon such as this one would just serve to lull the people into thinking they were NOT legalistic…because after all, “CJ is against legalism! He just preached against it! So our church must be against legalism.”
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Mahaz,
I was writing my comment #186 above while you were posting your story. I’m about to run out the door for a few hours and won’t have time to read it until later – but in advance, thank you so much for sharing it with us!
January 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Kris -
I understand the perception of double talk in reference to CJ’s sermon on legalism.
I suppose the question that comes to my mind is:
Where do we draw the line between not being legalistic and seeking ways to practically apply biblical principles to our daily lives?
I have been a part of churches (mentioned in my story above) where any form of piety was looked upon as wicked because it is “religious” or legalistic. However, the very people who lambasted pious living were living in the greatest hypocrisy, and demonstrating no Christian compassion or love. So, in some ways, the “pious theme” of Sovereign Grace has been so very appealing. I have had thoughts such as, “Oh, wow, biblical principles really can be lived out! It’s not just all talk!” I have been very drawn to CJ and other Sovereign Grace leader’s emphasis on “practical application.”
Thoughts?
January 22nd, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Nancy Drew,
The woman is not held responsible for lack of initiative. The man should lead, so until a man takes initiative the woman should just trust God that He will provide. Carolyn McCulley discusses this in detail on her blog.
http://solofemininity.blogs.com/
January 22nd, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Oh, and another thought on legalism.
So often we think of legalism as a way that we relate to each other in a social context. However, in its purest form, isn’t legalism really about how we relate to God? Legalists will pride themselves in earning God’s favor by their behaviors. However, we understand theologically that God is the only one who opens deaf ears and blind eyes. He is the one that saves, and the one that is truly sovereign over our very lives.
My encounters with SG folks has been that most of them have this doctrinal understanding, and so are trying to find practical ways to demonstrate their faith in a community. I have a hard time finding fault here, particularly since I have seen so little self-righteousness as pastors and others within SG have related to me and come along side me during periods of great trial.
This certainly does not dismiss anything that has been discussed on this forum or any experiences that are different than mine. These conversations are valid and needed! Nevertheless, I felt compelled to present another side of the coin from my perspective.
Cheers,
Mahaz
January 22nd, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Hi Mahaz,
You asked a very good question: “Where do we draw the line between not being legalistic and seeking ways to practically apply biblical principles to our daily lives?”
I read a book one time entitled “Free to Obey”. We are no longer slaves to sin . We are servants of God. It is by His grace, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, that we receive the freedom to walk in the Light. The OT Jews tried to apply Biblical principles through applying the law. Appying Biblical principles can STILL become a law, even for those of us under grace. We do not need to apply principles when we have an intimate RELATIONSHIP with God. When we walk according the the Holy Spirit, all of these so called “principles” will be walked out. If we are trying to apply principles to our lives to keep us in line, then we are back under the law, and under the knowledge of good and evil.
The Holy Spirit produces FRUIT – not principles. This is GOD”S salvation and Jesus is the AUTHOR and PERFECTOR of our faith. He has given us a new heart where He has written His laws! I study God’s word, not because of a principle, but because I love His word, and I love God. If we tell people that they need to have “devotions” every day, then we have put them under the law. The same applies to church attendance, tithing/giving, prayer, bible study, etc etc. We should always do what we do because we love God, and not out of some sense of DUTY or principle.
God is after a relationship, not an application of principles. The Pharisses were great at applying their principles and making sure everyone else did also! We know how Jesus felt about their principles!
January 22nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
SGMsingle, thanks for the response.
I’ve never heard of this sort of thing (about the possible sin for an unmarried man). Is there an actual teaching on this directed towards men? I would be interested in what scriptures are used to apply this. I realize scripture talks about being lazy, but I’m wondering about specific scriptures about the sin of a single man? I can understand someone being personally convicted in this area, but if that was the case it wouldn’t be something taught church-wide.
January 22nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Dennis,
Thanks for the quick reply. As I read your comments, the following scripture came to mind:
In Philippians, after Paul gives a wonderfully rich message on Christ in Chapter 2 verses 1- 11, he transitions to application in vs. 12:
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
I read that scripture and I am inclined to see that, though Paul gives a theological understanding that it is God who works in us, he does not release us from cooperating with the Holy Spirit to “work out” our salvation.
I suppose the danger therein is when a movement/organization gives spoken or unspoken rules on how that salvation is to be worked out. Homeschooling is certainly not a tried and true way to work it out. Courship is also not a tried and true way to work it out. However, that begs the question, can these practices be an evidence of the Holy Spirit’s fruit in someone’s life? The fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit, and leads to behaviors and practices, observable by men, that are perhaps uncommon to society.
However, I am also inclined to believe that if we pride ourselves in these practices then we are acting out of self-righteousness, and falling into the dangerous pit of legalism.
January 22nd, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Hi Mahaz,
I think that Phil 2:12 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. What does Paul mean by “work out” your OWN salvation? I believe these blogs are an example of each of us “working out” of our OWN salvation. We are EACH discovering OUR OWN areas of bondage, hurts, legalism, oppression etc.
We are all having to “work out” our OWN salvation! SGM cannot work out my salvation, nor can any other church group or person! I need to work out my OWN salvation! I cannot work out YOUR salvation, and you cannot work out mine.
Paul starts out the verse by saying “As you have ALWAYS obeyed”!!! So this is NOT about their obedience! And he ends the verse with “For it is GOD that is at work in you BOTH to WILL and to WANT for HIS good pleasure! Salvation is GOD”S work from beginning to end! Jesus is the AUTHOR and PEFECTER of our faith! We do not perfect our faith – Jesus does!
January 22nd, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Nancy Drew (et al.),
Really, the issue about the whole “guy sinning by remaining single” isn’t a matter of the guy sinning by remaining single. Rather, it’s about a guy sinning if he believes he doesn’t have the “gift of singleness” Jesus and Paul talked about, yet insists on not pursuing the “gift of marriage” (either out of laziness [a sin] or cowardice/”fear of man” [a sin]).
The sin is the laziness and/or the pride that’s behind fear of others’ opinions of you. That laziness and/or pride is expressed in his actions. If his actions aren’t motivated by these sinful attitudes, then he’s not sinning.
They’re just trying to work through 1 Corinthians 7, folks. Seriously…! ;)
January 22nd, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Hi Travis,
If a man is ‘lazy” about pursuing a relationship with a woman, then maybe there is a deeper problem! And there is such a thing as “healthy fear” as in “work out your own salvation with FEAR and trembling.” Personally, I think all of this talk about fear and laziness in relationship to a single not pursuing a wife is very judgemental and also bogus.
January 22nd, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Hi Travis,
Also, what about the Lord’s timing and the single brother waiting upon the Lord? What’s the rush and what’s all the fuss about single men pursuing a wife? Who are we to accuse another brother of being lazy when it comes to pursuing a wife? Who are we to judge another brother as being fearful? As we talked about above about the following scripture – “work out your OWN salvation”! Let the brother work out his OWN salvation! What business is it of anybody if he stays single? (Unless he is struggling with some form of immorality)
January 22nd, 2008 at 7:32 pm
I’ve been thinking about this conversation all afternoon as I’ve been out and about. I think Mahaz raises some excellent questions about where we can fit practical guidelines for holy living into a framework of “salvation by grace.”
I have to say that just like Mahaz, “Guy” and I were initially very attracted to SGM’s seriousness about holiness, and their willingness to talk about the nitty-gritty of avoiding sin. We’d come from a place where it wasn’t uncommon to overhear other leaders almost flippantly discussing their teenagers’ drug use or incarcerated boyfriends. Or for leaders to have potty mouths. Or for leaders to be involved in shady get-rich-quick schemes. Not all leaders were this way, of course, but enough of them had such a serious disconnect between the faith they claimed to profess and the way they lived their daily lives that it was difficult not to grow a little cynical once we ourselves “arrived” in the ranks of leadership.
So I’ve spent a lot of time over the past year considering the question of how we can honestly address the specifics of what constitutes holy living without veering into the dangerous quagmire of legalism.
I think for me, it all comes down to the question, “Through which nature do we live out a holy Christian life?” After all, every saved person has TWO natures, their old sin nature and their NEW nature, which is the mind of Christ.
Do we live holy lives through a focus on our sin and our potential for sinfulness? Or do we live holy lives because of the POSITIVE things that God calls us to DO (rather than not do) and because of HIS POWER at work within us, through our new nature?
I realize this is sort of like theological hair-splitting, but I think it is nonetheless important hair-splitting.
There’s been so much talk here about our sin nature. Some have said things to the effect that we can NEVER trust our hearts because everything we think and do is tainted with our sin nature. Following out this line of logic, this is almost like saying that rather than possessing TWO opposing natures (a sin nature and a new nature, or the “old man” and the “new man,”), we Christians just have ONE nature that’s occasionally good (like when we’re serving in the church, or when we’re reading our Bible, or doing something overtly “Christian”), but is usually just sort of muddling along, a big old blob of struggling forces, where the force of sin holds sway most of the time.
For our visual learners out there, I would say that a picture of this “single nature” Christian would be to imagine that before your conversion, you are a sculptor working with a mass of filthy clay, the dirtiest of dirty clay, with no hope of ever becoming clean or even really useful ever again. In the “single nature” model of Christianity, when you come to Christ, Christ begins adding new, clean clay to your filth. Or rather, YOU see yourself as mostly responsible for replacing bits of your own brown clay with pieces of Christ’s white clay, day by day striving to become cleaner. But it takes a constant awareness on your part, a continual effort to be on the lookout for if whatever you’re doing at the moment is suitable for the dirty clay or the clean, new clay. And if you’re not vigilant, it’s practically a given that the dirty clay will overtake the white clay, till all you’re left with is neither particularly dirty nor clean but instead just a giant blob of gray…and even when you think that a particular piece might be essentially clean, you’re not entirely sure if there’s not some dirt mixed in with it. You live in a constant state of questioning confusion as to what part of your sculpture is made out of clean clay and which parts are dirty and therefore not fit for the kiln.
The biblical picture of who we are in Christ, however, would be that once we become Christians, we are handed an entire lump of new, clean clay to work with, and God essentially says, “That old dirty lump? I’m not going to count that against you anymore. Just use the clean lump.” We are given the Holy Spirit, who is constantly at work within us to whisper new sculpting ideas for the white clay. The lump of dirty clay is still sitting on our workbench, but the more we focus our thoughts on the positive things that the Holy Spirit is telling us to do (“renewing our minds”), and the more we don’t even CONSIDER the lump of dirty clay to be worth our time and energy (“reckoning ourselves DEAD to sin and ALIVE to Christ”), the more beautiful our new, clean work of art becomes.
I know it’s an analogy, with the same limitations that hobble all analogies past a certain point, but I think it’s useful for the discussion here.
If the practical aspects of Christianity focus too much of our thinking and our energy upon avoiding that lump of dark clay on the workbench, we’re going to lose sight of what we OUGHT to be sculpting with the new, clean, and workable lump.
But more importantly, I think practical suggestions for holiness will simply turn us into neurotic messes, saddled with “analysis paralysis,” if we don’t start out with a clear picture of the reality of who we are in Christ. Unless we see our two natures – who we are in Christ, and who we used to be before Christ – as two separate and totally distinct entities, we will NEVER be able to relax and rest in what the Holy Spirit, as the Master Sculptor, is doing with our new nature. We’ll be far too focused on trying to pick out the bits of dirty clay from our clean clay, when we should instead be focusing on what we can make with the clean clay…and, worse, we might even get into that mindset where we get all hung up on picking OTHERS’ little dirty specks out of THEIR sculptures.
January 22nd, 2008 at 7:42 pm
A passage of Scripture that came to mind, after I’d posted comment #198, is Ephesians 2:1-10. Since this is my blog and I’m the moderator, and since this passage exactly reflects what I’m trying to get at above, I’m going to break my own rules for comments and post the whole thing here (and yes, I even copied and pasted it from biblegateway…I’m really living on the edge! :-) ):
January 22nd, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Mahaz,
That’s quite a story. Thankyou for telling it. I can relate to the Toronto Blessing part and the deep pentecostalism. Considering what you have been through a healthy emotional state means alot to Jesus, and I know you know that. God Bless you for the courage to keep hanging in there and to read this site. If you can keep your perspective and communication open with people you trust and maybe this site ,sounds like SG might be a good place for you for now.
I say this as I can relate in alot of ways. I attend a PCA and visit and charismatic church about every 3 months.( I tip toe back in slowly )
I have found New Life Ministry to be very helpful. http://www.newlife.com They have great resources and a call in radio program you can listen to online. I listened almost every day for 3 years after I got out of my bad churches.
If you still feel like ministry is for you don’t press yourself. I know alot of God’s word is already written on your heart. Relax and rest as long as you need to.