I have to say, this blog has been a wild ride.
I began it with basically no “purpose” whatsoever, beyond providing a place to share my impressions of our Sovereign Grace experience. And since our experience had not involved anything particularly negative – or more importantly, anything definitively unscriptural – I had (as I’ve repeated ad infinitum) no ax to grind. I just thought there ought to be SOME place online where curious folks could read perhaps another perspective on what I thought of as Sovereign Grace’s “cultural oddities.”
But then a very surprising thing happened. This site began getting quite a few hits, and people began leaving comments about their own experiences with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Although these stories were all different as to details, most of them contained very similar trends. These trends were as follows:
- A person has a difference of opinion, a question, or a problem.
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As he’s been trained to do, he approaches leadership with this issue.
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Leadership is, for whatever reason, not receptive to this person’s point of view, or not equipped (in the professional sense) to deal with the person’s problem. (Here, actually, is where this process hangs on one rusty nail, like my dad would say. As satisfied SGM-ers have pointed out, oftentimes leadership IS approachable and happy to take a seemingly “negative” observation under advisement…or offers up approaches to the member’s problem that the member finds useful and acceptable. When this happens, all is well, and the rest of the steps do not occur. But when the observation is NOT well-received, or the member is NOT helped, we move on to step 4.)
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Since leadership did not receive the question or negative observation well, or since “indwelling sin” is essentially the only counseling tool in leadership’s toolbox, leadership turns things around and offers up “observations” of its own, directed at the questioning member’s motives, heart, and eventually, sinfulness.
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At this point, the member is left with two choices. Either he “receives” what leadership says and accepts leadership’s assessment of his sinful motives, or he holds out for his original point. Again, the SGM folks who are satisfied with their church’s structure have found themselves ending the process at this stage, if they weren’t already finished at step #3. However, if the member does NOT accept leadership’s assessment of his sinful motives, and if he does NOT choose to “repent” and give the issue a rest, then he moves on to step #6.
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Leadership gives the member something of an ultimatum. Either the member submits to what leadership says, or the member is placed on some sort of discipline plan. Failure to submit to the discipline plan will result in step #7.
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The member is disfellowshipped until he chooses to submit to leadership’s “restoration plan.”
After reading so many stories (stories either posted on the site or shared with me via email) that follow this same pattern, I’ve grown quite concerned that Sovereign Grace Ministries has what amounts to a “fatal design flaw” in how it handles conflicts between its members and its leadership. While I’ve sought to remain fair to SGM in everything I’ve written, I now have reached a point where I’m concerned enough to think that SGM members ought to share my alarm about their church’s discipline process and its potential to turn into a tool of spiritual abuse – since THEY (and not I) are still part of the system and could have a voice.
What’s been so interesting has been this site’s pro-SGM readers’ responses to my observations.
While I want to clearly state that many pro-SGM folks have been polite and kind and have engaged with the issues raised here, the majority have eventually turned the focus back around to either MY sinfulness or the sinfulness of the ex-SGM people who have shared their stories.
This is something that I don’t understand.
I particularly don’t understand those readers who find the site, read a few articles, and then barrel in to declare what a bad person I am, and how idiotic and sinful I must be for having a different view of their church organization than they have.
I mean, I don’t go around to pro-SGM blogs (and there are thousands out there) and leave comments about what fools they are for suffering a church structure that is so heavy on submitting to authority that it’s like a spiritual abuse train wreck waiting to happen. I don’t go looking for fights.
(But if I did…well, would I express my shock and dismay if other commenters on these “SGM Happy” sites would take exception to what I said? Would I post comments where I publicly licked my wounds and talked about what big, bad, mean people they were for daring to “fight back” and answer my accusations? No, I would not. And if I did, those pro-SGM folks would laugh me off the internet. As they rightfully should.)
Another thing that I don’t get is why the pro-SGM folks think that it is their right and their duty to offer me (and the other posters) spiritual guidance…especially when most of them barely bother to say “Hello” or “Nice to ‘meet’ you” before launching into their sermons. Again, I don’t go poking around THEIR blogs, spewing Scripture that discusses discernment, or Pharisaical tendencies, or legalism…and then expressing shocked dismay that they aren’t properly “loving their enemy” when they reject my abrupt rebukes.
I think what puzzles me most of all is, WHY is it such a big deal to these people that one tiny little blog – nestled among the thousands of pro-SGM blogs and sites out there – has been set up to provide a different view of SGM? Why is such vitriol and angst (always cloaked in “concern,” of course) directed my way? Why do I get the sense from these folks that it’s so vital that ZERO negative information be posted about Sovereign Grace? Why do these people think that their denomination – er, “family of churches” – is somehow deserving of total and unquestioning approval, with no dissent allowed?
I really don’t have the answers to these questions…except to say that possibly, the answer lies in what they’ve been taught to think the Christian life is supposed to look like. If the answer to every conflict is for the person beneath to submit and accept the point of view of the person in authority above them, and if the answer to every problem is to first of all obsess over one’s own contributing sinfulness, then I suppose I can understand the “advice” and “concern” various SGM folks have “shared” with me.
(I can’t help but wonder, though, if these people even realize how closely their responses to this blog follow the pattern that their leadership follows – as outlined through steps 1-7 above. Do they understand how their reactions and words here have served to validate and authenticate what people have described in their stories of spiritual abuse?)
Of course, according to Mahaney’s own teachings, SGM’s bottom-line answer to everything is that we’re supposed to submit to our authorities and offer them unquestioning allegiance, because this is simply our duty to make them successful in their role as leaders.
Since, following Mahaney’s logic, even Martin Luther and the other Reformers would have been “in sinful rebellion,” I guess I can understand why this blog bugs so many folks.
But it still doesn’t make much sense. Not in the real world.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Hey Kris!
I wanted to let you know that SG doesn’t acutally push to plant SG churches. They actually find organizations like LovenCare Ministries (orphanage in India) and pastors who are already in the country and support their efforts. I think there is more info on their site about their mission efforts if you want more info. I think it would be under the missions presentation.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Oh and Kris- I hope you are well. I just kind of jumped in there without a greeting
January 25th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Hi J-B,
Welcome to the blog, and thank you for your very gracious words! It’s been really refreshing of late to be able to engage with people who have had largely positive experiences with Sovereign Grace Ministries!
You said:
My experience was just the opposite. Most of the pressure I experienced and legalistic “gospel add-ons” came directly from leadership. With my peers I experienced much more authentic, grace-filled biblical fellowship … as still do to this day. If someone who wasn’t in authority tried to put some extra-biblical requirement on me, it was a piece of cake to challenge them or just graciously blow them off. But with leadership that’s not quite so easy.
Also, I’m seeing a bit of a pattern emerge: People who grew up in Sovereign Grace but weren’t held to all of the legalistic rules and regulations (as evidenced by the fact your parents “allowed” to go away to college – something the senior pastor in my one SGM church aggressively counseled parents against) seemed to enjoy a level of protection from much of the scrutiny a lot of us were subjected to. It also sounds like CLC is a much more mature church than the church plant we were part of, where the bulk of our spiritual abuse took place. I wonder if it’s just not as feasible for pastors to micromanage members’ lives with a church that size.
Again, so nice to hear from you! Your very mature contribution speaks for itself!
January 25th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Nervous,
Are you saying that J-B’s comment contained incorrect information, then?
January 25th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
someone has taken this website off of wickipedia again…..
January 25th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Hi, b…
In case anyone is wondering, I’ve never had anything to do with the link posted on Wikipedia. Other readers have put it there. I just feel like I need to clarify that, because in no way would I ever intend to give off the impression that this site is meant to be an “official source” of anything having to do with Sovereign Grace.
January 25th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
I thought J-B left a very nice message as well. I’m glad for his sake that he was able to move through CLC without getting entrapped. I can’t help but think that his immediate family had more influence on him than the church, thereby enabling him to “extract the precious from the worthless”. (Jer. 15:19)
I think that people recognize the trendiness of SGM and seek to benefit from some of their programs (such as CLC’s private school). SGM, in my view, is basically a consumer organization, and if you are shopping for something that will enhance your life and make you more comfortable, then stay as long as you please.
January 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Lawrence said:
If you go to :
When Church Loyalty Goes Too Far
In comment 211 I respond.
January 26th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Hello again everyone! It’s kinda nice to be able to come here (my 4th entry here I think), read what I’ve missed since I’ve last visited and be able to glean more insights. Kris, I think you’ve made me a permanent blogger now ;)
SGM Casualty, I read “A Child Called It” that very night when I wrote you and I couldn’t put the book down. I wept through the whole thing and finally fell asleep, emotionally depleted, at around 2:00 a.m. Knowing you went through similar things as a foster child growing up was very much in my mind and I want you to know that I said a special prayer for you that whatever horrible experiences you had would all be redeemed so that you might also strengthen others in the very areas where the enemy tried to take you down–all for God’s glory in the end!
Which brings me to my comment for J-B. I agree with Claireon who said, “I can’t help but think that his immediate family had more influence on him than the church, thereby enabling him to “extract the precious from the worthless.” Yes, I think the healthier your upbringing, the less dysfunction in your own home, the better your experiences can be at PDI/SGM. When you said you were raised at CLC as a kid, I wondered if you were one of the kids under my care when I was a Children’s Ministry volunteer there. Those will always be some of my fondest memories at CLC and ALCC (their sister church in California). Unlike my abusive husband who didn’t know how to administer “biblical discipline” correctly at home because of his own marred childhood, I knew that many, many kids I interacted with at CLC/ALCC came from truly loving, gracious, “happy” homes and I knew their parents were genuine, sincere followers of Christ who were doing their best to live their lives according to God’s perfect will (one of C.J.’s favorite sayings was “the enemy of best is good” as his way of exhorting us to always give of our very best to God at all times so that we might “be perfect as He is perfect”).
As each of the volunteers and I would pray over the kids before Children’s Ministry classes began, we prayed that they would rise up and be the generation that sets the world ablaze with God’s fire of mercy and love. We wholeheartedly believed that what we were doing was supporting the same biblical values being taught at home and in your case, J-B, I am so glad that it all worked out for you in the end. You sound very stable and grounded in your faith and I thank God and yes, SGM and your family, for all the good that we now see in your life.
So why is it that so many others are so badly wounded in the end and end up leaving with so much anger and bitterness? I can only speak for myself. There was a time when I put a lot of the blame for the demise of my marriage and family on my ex-husband. But as the Lord convicted me of my own sins, I realized I too played a big part by playing the victim too long, not finding and using my own voice when I could, and not doing enough to change the environment around me whether at home or in my church. As I underwent intensive psychotherapy, I began to realize how my abusive childhood (I was sexually abused growing up) pretty much set me up for finding and accepting what would later be an abusive relationship with my first husband, as well as, a spiritually abusive relationship with my pastoral mentors and my male bosses at PDI/CLC/ALCC.
As a child who lost her voice when she was raped at 6 years old, I learned to be quiet, submissive, to simply do things as I was told and accept things without question. So desperate was I for love and approval from others that I would not even be aware of my own needs and be unable to express them, simply obeying those in authority even when it ultimately hurt me. So in the end, when I saw that things didn’t go as I expected, I would leave with so much anger and resentment even though I, of course, really did nothing to end the abuse until it was too late (typical “victim mentality”).
Looking back, while there were many, many healthy, well-adjusted, “normal” families like J-B’s whom I had the pleasure of knowing and befriending while I was there, there were equally as many families (in my opinion) who were dysfunctional, broken (from childhood traumas or genetic conditioning like myself) and in desperate need of emotional and mental healing. Most of the PDI/CLC/ALCC pastors and leaders (and again, I met and interacted with many of them) were simply naive and ill-equipped to handle such families I think. A pastor once said there were just too many “needy” people in his church and he wondered why he attracted so many of them.
As one who was probably perceived as “needy”–I was told I just needed to pray more, read the bible more, go to church more, volunteer more, fellowship more, submit more–and all those deep-seated, often hidden feelings of depression and anger from wounds inflicted from a distant past–would somehow just go away. They didn’t. I also went through deliverances, inner healing sessions, pastoral counselings, marriage seminars, prophetic sessions, extended times of prayer and fasting, etc., etc. through PDI/CLC/ALCC and while I’m not saying none of these worked (because they did and I felt good for a long, long time) even these were not enough to ultimately deal with all the massive pain that continued to fester underneath. No, I think it was all of these put together and it was also none of these. Because, in the end, truth be told, nothing but the pure blood of Jesus poured over and over through my broken heart and troubled soul in endless tearful prayer intercession (mine and others) that finally got me free!
To make a very long story short, my journey towards eventual healing and restoration (and I am still a work in progress) took many twists and turns. Had I had a healthier upbringing, devoid of any real traumas, maybe I would not have had to travel such a hard road…and maybe I would still be at an SGM church. But it all goes back to James 1:2-12:
“Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.”
True maturity and wisdom in the Lord are hard to come by in these days of easy religion. Far too many churches, all over the world, do not challenge their flock enough and so if SGM gets a little over-zealous in their doctrines and practices in pursuit of “holy, sanctified living” and actually steps on toes sometimes–and might actually walk all over them at other times–I can still find it in my heart to personally forgive them. I know I would not be the same Christian I am now if not for my personal encounters with Larry, CJ, Che and the other PDI leaders. Did I get hurt during my time, co-laboring with them for the Lord? Yes. But did the Lord give me greater maturity and wisdom as I processed all this hurt later on–absolutely!
I will end with one of my favorite stories of C.J. Part of my job at PDI was booking hotel rooms for the pastors, from all over the U.S., for their bi-annual weekend meetings. This time, CLC was hosting the event and so I asked C.J. where he wanted to have the meeting (most pastors wanted the meeting at their church site or a hotel meeting room near the church for easy access). He told me he thought we should book a hotel meeting room near the airport to make it easier for everyone else so they wouldn’t have to drive so far. And whenever I booked his travel arrangements to other places, he always insisted on staying at a brother’s house or a cheaper motel room and never wanted me to book a limo or any expensive car. He preferred being picked up and brought back to the airport by a brother so he could fellowship with them during the ride. I always thought that this exemplified his servant’s heart which he preached about from the pulpit often.
Reading how some people have come to view him, as being elevated above the rest and almost exalted, I am almost certain that this must make him truly uncomfortable. From all my personal experiences with him, I have never known him to be anything but humble and gracious. Misguided and seriously needing to re-evaluate how biblical truths are being lived out within the SGM churches, yes–but I’d be lying if I said that he didn’t have a huge influence on me and the way I still try to live out my faith “in fear and trembling” because of many of his solid teachings.
So I guess I have come full circle. If I were to meet any of these guys right now, I would hope that they would remember me. I’d give them a big hug, look them in the eye, and sincerely say from my heart, “I am who I am today because of all that I’ve learned through you.”
January 26th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Pia,
It’s great you keep gracing us with your comments. You’ll get no complaints out of me! :-)
January 26th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Pia,
Really incredible post. Thank you so much for sharing with such sincerity. As those who have read my post know, I am a part of a SG church, and if you click on my blog link and read my testimony, you will see how the Lord has used individuals and Pastors within Sovereign Grace as instruments in the Redeemer’s hands for my soul.
However, I very much identify with your humble acknowledgement of pain and traumatic church experiences being influences by a childhood already filled with great dysfunction. As referenced in my testimony, I left a ministry/church/school six years ago that employed many extra-biblical abusive and cultic methodologies. However, there were also many times of great encouragement and fellowship that glorified the Lord. I believe many of the experiences were intensified by the “eye glasses of dysfunction” from my childhood that I was wearing as I became involved in that specific ministry. As I have had discussions with other individuals that were a part of the same school and ministry and have since left for a variety of reasons, many of their experiences do not come close to resembling the pain in mine. As I have been discussing these issues with my SG Pastor (who has also become a dear friend), he has very humbly and graciously acknowledged my past, and has effectively pointed me to the Lord. As such, my relationship with Christ has grown, and I have seen stability and freedom in areas of my life that have been influenced by my dysfunctional past. I am glad the same has happened for you, and I pray the Lord’s great grace and mercy continues to be revealed to you with greater and greater clarify. His mercies are new every morning.
January 26th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Pia!
Wow – I can’t believe you read that book in one night! It’s a tough read! It’s no wonder you were depleted. But thank you for your prayers.
I can honestly say It is now very rare that I even feel pain from my past. Through the help of a very wise counselor, God has really restored my heart from the traumas of my past. And I know that He will one day use me as a voice to help strengthen other foster kids. I know that He wants me to write a book; I even have the title. I’m just waiting for my foster father to die (he’s 95 now) b/c I don’t want to expose him in his twilight years.
I’m sorry to hear about your experience w/ sexual abuse! My heart sunk when I read it! I really do believe that those of us from highly dysfunctional pasts were much more vulnerable to some of the more abusive aspects of PDI-turned-Sovereign Grace Ministries.
You also couldn’t be more right about our responsibility in allowing abuse to happen. My counselor taught me that I had to take responsibility for my role, if I were to avoid being ensnared again. I think that was one of the hardest truths to work through.
And, by the way, the whole notion passed on by SGM leaders that therapists will just bathe you with pity and “tickle your ears” by saying things you “want to hear” couldn’t be more bunk. I can’t speak for all therapists, but even when I told my counselor about that at one point, she said one of the toughest things about being a counselor is that you are constantly confronting people about their own inappropriate behavior. She was committed to being very truthful w/ me b/c she knew that responsible therapy would shore up the areas in my own mind/heart that made me most susceptible to dangerous teachings, methodologies, and people.
*SGM Casualty steps down from soapbox.*
Your story has encouraged me more than words can tell. I’m so grateful you come back from time to time to post!
Lawrence,
RE: your posts … I don’t doubt that Paul considered himself the worst of sinners. I’m sure he couldn’t dismiss the unbelievable tragedy he brought to Christians before his conversion. I think his sense of unworthiness in being called to do what he did contributed to his powerful testimony and helped him see himself as the least worthy of all of the apostles. I don’t know that he even understood that his letters to different churches would be read for generations to come. Maybe. I just don’t see it.
But when you look at the full counsel of God’s word, I don’t believe it looks like the worm-focused gospel promulgated by Sovereign Grace. When he preached, signs and wonders followed. And he did not preface everything he wrote with long-winded, high-drama, self-deprecating bridges.
The only way to avoid these extremes is to look at the full counsel of God’s Word. And since SGM doesn’t even include the resurrection or pentacost in the preaching of the “glorious gospel,” it’s pretty safe to conclude where these extremes – that conveniently keep everyone under tight control – come into play.
January 26th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Hello Mahaz!
Thank you for your kind comments and for your warm encouragement. (You too, Kris!) You are so right…His tender mercies are definitely new every morning! I love how the Lord sometimes has us walk through darkness for a time, to teach us something, but it just makes the brightness of day that follows the night all the more bright and glorious, doesn’t it?
I am very glad that you have found a safe, trustworthy spiritual mentor (at least that is how he strikes me from the way you describe him) at your current SGM church who seems to be mature, compassionate and is willing to wrestle with you as you try to sift through all that you are learning right now, hopefully without those troublesome “eye glasses of dysfunction.” I once watched a video on bipolar depression and they said that those in the manic stage can only see the world through “kaleidoscope” glasses–everything is so wonderful and colorful all the time. Those in the depressive stage only see gloomy darkness–with very little shades of gray. The hope, of course, is to help these bipolar patients begin to get treatment (through therapy and medication) so they can see the world with clear vision–seeing things as they really are. Oh that all Christian soldiers could also have such clear spiritual vision so we too can begin to see things truly as they are–and we could just stop shooting each other, especially our wounded brothers and sisters, and begin to fight the real enemy as seen in Ephesians 6.
Ephesians 6:12
“For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
I finally read your testimony in one of the posts above and I was very moved. You have been through a long journey, my brother. Like me, it seems you have been a truth seeker since you were a child–not fearing to look in places that would have been considered simply taboo by others brought up in purely Christian homes. I too dabbled in Mormonism for a little bit–actually my Dad did. These Mormons, who were so earnest, would come to our house and show us their films, lend us their books and painstakingly guide us through the process of conversion. I remember, as a child, going as far as visiting their churches. But my Dad soon tired of their teachings and stopped having them come over and that was the end of that.
Another thing you and I have in common is that I too was influenced by the teachings of Roberts Liardon. I still own many of his books and have always been inspired by his stories of his visits to heaven. I have to admit that when I began to look at my own life with clearer glasses though, I started to wonder how Christian leaders, like him, could possibly live such seemingly flawless lives. That’s what I love about David and Peter from the bible–such earthly, sin-full men who freely admitted their mistakes but whom the Lord continued to use in such mighty ways regardless. Daniel, Joseph and John, on the other hand–they’re harder to relate to. How did they stay so faithful all throughout? It was almost with some relief when I heard of his downfall. He’s human after all. I liked what he said when he preached for the first time after his fall: “I appreciate the Cross a whole lot more” (Charisma magazine, May 2002).
I looked back on some of your posts, Mahaz, and I copied this one of your first posts:
“Finally, I would like to say that as I have been involved in the Sovereign Grace movement over the last year, I have met some incredible people with a devotion to our Lord that is commendable. My faith has been encouraged in many, many ways.
Nevertheless, I do have some apprehension on this journey. I do not want to succumb to an elitist mentality, which I fear can take root if Sovereign Grace Leadership does not actively resist being conformed to a culture rather than Christ.”
It is this very attitude I think that will protect you from some of the pits you’ve fallen into when you tried all these other churches and para-church organizations in the past (and I can see that when you devote yourself to something that you believe in–you give it everything you’ve got–that is a wonderful characteristic of a true follower of Christ even though it has gotten you in trouble before). There is a teachableness and humility in your posts that I can detect–a continual desire to grow in the true knowledge of Christ–and I have no doubt that “surely goodness and mercy shall follow you all the days of your life and you will dwell in the house of the Lord forever” (Psalm 23) as you stay on this path you are on. So continue on with your journey and perhaps our paths might actually cross someday. If not, I know we will see what Liardon saw and more someday– when we finally dance in those streets of gold–and talk about those “good ol’ days” of blogging down here on earth!
Have a good night, everyone!
January 26th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
Hi SGM Casualty! I can’t wait to read your book when it comes out! I too feel that someday the Lord will probably have me write down all the things I’ve been through in a book so the truth can set some people free…meanwhile, blogging will have to do
I’d love to write more but I’m going out with my husband for our “date night.” So…for now…a pleasant good night once more to all and may the Lord continue to “burn away the dross” of our lives so only His image shines through!
January 26th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
Hi again and thanks to everyone for the warm welcome!
Kris, thanks for your words (#250) on homeschooling and missions. I agree that within the homeschooling movement everywhere (not just in SGM), there is the tendency to look down on public education and those who support it. I’ve definitely seen that happen and even been guilty of it myself. However, in the years I participated in the CLC youth group, there were always at least some kids who were in the public schools, and very often they were strong Christians and were involved in Bible studies there. They and their families were definitely not looked down on, and were often held up as examples of “salt and light.” I know that this is not the case everywhere, though.
I should clarify what I said about missions. Many of SGM’s recent international outreaches have been adoptions of pre-existing churches, vice traditional SGM church plants. While I would be very happy to see much more cooperation with other churches/movements/missions organizations by SGM, I have to say that I respect the care and thoroughness they devote to choosing local partners overseas, given the proliferation of neo-Christian syncretic churches in the “10-40 Window”.
SGMCas, Claireon and Pia (#253, 257, 259) — I do think that my family, while far from perfect, did raise me to see beyond SGM to the broader body of Christ. I will always appreciate my dad (a retired Presbyterian minister) for introducing me at a young age to prominent evangelicals active in the public sphere; and to my mom for inspiring in me a heart for the church around the world.
Thank you again for sharing — it is sad to hear about so many people’s painful experiences in different places, but at the same time encouraging to hear about God’s faithfulness.
January 27th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Pia said:
I guess everyone took a much needed break today. ;-)
Pia
First of all I was touched by your recent posts. I am glad you are doing well and overcame adversary.
I question how valid is for any pastor or church to teach that a leader is”God’s Anointed” or the”Lord’s Anointed.” That was a phrase (combination of “Annointed” and “Lord’s”) that was only used by David and Samuel referring to Saul who had been annointed by the Lord as king over Israel. David said these words when he said he wouldn’t kill Saul since David felt he was the “Lord’s Annointed.”
At that time David and Samuel used this phrase, their was one person over Israel, their king (singular). Whenever I read in the New Testament about submitting to leadership the term that is always used is plural, e.g. “leaders” and not “leader.”
Priests in the old testament were described as anointed but were not called the Lord’s anointed.
Thus I really think one is stretching the term to call present day church leaders or even if a church has only one leader the “Lord’s Anointed.” That term implies a lot more authority than God has seemed to meant in today’s church. There is no longer one person (unless one believes in the position of the pope) that has this similar power or position.
January 27th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Hi Steve,
Great post. There is an excellent book I just finished reading that discusses this authority issue in SGM (although not by name). It is called “Authority, Accountability, and the Apostolic Movement” Here again is the link to some free sample chapters. I highly recommend for all SGMers and ex SGMers to read this book. It covers most of the issues discussed on this site. It is outstanding!
http://www.stevecrosby.com/downloads.html
January 29th, 2008 at 1:57 am
Thank you Steve for your insights and kind words of encouragement! I do agree with you as far as no longer having just one leader who is anointed above the rest in this day and age.
Dennis, thank you for the web link. I went there, read the free sample chapters and was amazed by this man’s wisdom. Truly “anointed” work! I immediately ordered the e-book and will no doubt devour it once I have the whole thing printed.
Thanks again, Kris, for giving us this forum to connect and gain such valuable insights and practical help from each other as we all learn, grow and heal from all this “mess”! Blessings to you and all your bloggers!
Pia
January 29th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Hi Pia,
You will love that book! FYI, it looks like this conversation has jumped to another thread. Here is the link:
http://sguncensored.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/an-interesting-comment/
January 29th, 2008 at 11:29 am
It looks like this conversation has now jumped to the following link:
http://sguncensored.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/an-interesting-comment/
February 1st, 2008 at 12:08 am
Oh. My. God.
I have no idea who you are or which church you attended or anything about you… I just stumbled across this blog from the SGM site on Wikipedia. Right this second, I want to cry. To hear that there are other people from the same group as myself who are dealing with some of the same post-traumatic stress, is just absolutely overwhelming.
My family started attending Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, MD when we moved to MD when I was nine. My mom had been friends with CJ in high school (actually, I think she dated him at one point) and both my parents had been participants in the original TAG program; they actually met through TAG. My first memory of the church is a panic attack about twenty minutes into children’s ministry… They paged my parents and I was completely shamed before my parents and classmates and teachers for not trusting god enough.
My family ignored my concerns and continued to attend. They encouraged my family to continue to homeschool my sister and I; I never set foot in a classroom from preschool to the end of highschool. Eventually I grew acclimated to the church and embraced many of its beliefs – primarily because to fight them caused me more trouble and pain. I went along so that they would stop harrassing me.
In 2002 I began to get seriously ill with anorexia nervosa. I’d already been clinically depressed, a struggle which began less than a year after we started at Cov Life. I was deep into self-injury as well. I didn’t know any way out, was getting constant abuse from my family who didn’t believe my conversion was true, and beyond that, I’d grown up in such an isolated community that I had no idea how to walk out the front door. My family responded to this with eight hellish months of “pastoral counselling”. Grant Layman, Dave Brewer, Robin Boisvert, Chris Silard, Gary Ricucci… I went through them all. Strangely enough (haha) I continued to deteriorate, to the point of suicidality.
My parents then tried to have me committed. Unfortunately for them, the age of consent in MD is 16, so they weren’t able to force me unless I made an actual suicide attempt. They continued trying to have me committed at various times over the next year, but I continued to evade them. I stopped attending church.
For the first time in my life I had a little relief.
I’ve been in and out of treatment centers and hospitals since I left the church in 2002, a consequence of all the horrible ^%$^ I’ve put my body through as my mind cracked under the SGM strain. My little brother, now eight, began cutting himself and head-banging at age five. He said it was the only thing that helped him feel better when he was angry, because he wasn’t allowed to express ANY anger. My sister goes back and forth between trying to make a break for freedom and retreating to the church when put under any stress.
The church officially disfellowshipped me in 2005, the same month my parents decided to disown me. I have absolutely no doubt it was at the church’s urging. They lost their status as care group leaders because of my eating disorder. I wasn’t allowed to participate in worship team any more because I was told I had no right to feel like I deserved to lead people in worship when I was acting on so much vanity and rebellion. God, I could lend a million anecdotes.
I’m currently at an inpatient treatment center (finally!) for my anorexia and I’m feeling hopeful for the first time in years. To learn that there are other people who’ve suffered and understand where I’m coming from…. I’m so @&*%# overwhelmed. I AM crying, now.
I’m not alone anymore.
February 1st, 2008 at 12:25 am
Tina -
I’m the guy behind the scene here – but sometimes I come out long enough to welcome somebody.
Take a deep breath and know that you’re amongst friends here. Stay in treatment and listen to the professionals. Get better.
February 1st, 2008 at 12:26 am
Hi, Tina, and welcome to the site.
I would put a “smiley” next to your welcome, but after reading your story, I feel more like crying with you. I cannot tell you how sorry I am right now that you have had to endure the things you’ve been through. My heart breaks for you!
BUT, I am also happy that you are finding the help that you need, and that you feel hopeful. That is wonderful.
No, you are not alone. Definitely not. Judging from my “in” box, SGM does not work well for certain types of individuals…essentially, anyone who does not conform to the norm. SGM also seems particularly harmful for anyone who might have psychological or psychiatric needs. I shudder when I hear that anorexia was viewed foremostly as a “sin” issue, like “vanity.”
That is just sick. I cannot imagine Jesus responding to your needs in such a fashion.
I think I’ve moved now from feeling sad enough that I could cry to feeling really angry on your behalf. Again, thanks for sharing a bit of your story. We’ll look forward to hearing more, as you feel led.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:35 am
Hey Tina,
No I echo Kris – you certainly aren’t alone! I shared my testimony a while back and was just as warmly welcomed as you
And you ARE welcome here. And you WONT be judged – just welcomed with the same spirit as Jesus who “binds up the broken-hearted”. I too had a bit of a nasty history which resulted in me;
1. Having anorexia.
2. Being addicted to pain killers (codeine).
3. Self-harming.
For a guy that is pretty shameful – especially as men are meant to be something in SGM! But like you both the SGM church and my family just couldn’t cope with it at all. My family still can’t ask me about how things are going now 2 years down the line – I can only guess because they are so ashamed of what I made them look like in the eyes of the church.
So yere – deep breath! You will find friends here – true friends. And whatever happens – however you feel … keep going! There is light at the end of the tunnel.
February 1st, 2008 at 9:06 am
Tina!!!
Oh my gosh! I totally recognize your last name. Yes, your family is very entrenched in Sovereign Grace Ministries. I’m SO sorry you’ve been through the hell you’ve been through! My heart breaks for you.
I also went through a lot of pretty hellish, more extreme stuff in SGM. You can read my story here.
In my experience, I was taken through an ongoing discipline process b/c several leaders THOUGHT I was anorexic. Even though I never once dropped below an acceptable weight for my height, gender, and age (according to all reputable medical sources), I was believed to have been anorexic and forced to submit to minimum weight requirements, food journaling, complete restriction from all exercise for months at a time, etc.
I can tell you this: If I HAD been anorexic, their legalistic methodologies would have crushed me and driven me deeper into the disorder. They were so convinced that anorexia is just all the result of the sins of pride, vanity, independence, etc. And the pastor’s wife who first told me that I was anorexic told me that anorexia is all about attention. How would that have helped me if I had been anorexic?
Yet, in all of these years of dealing with the “disciplinary consequences of my sin,” no one ever asked any questions about my past. They didn’t know much, but they all knew that I grew up in foster care. Any RESPONSIBLE professional would have thought, if the facts had been there to actually support their allegations of anorexia for me, that a past fraught with unusually high levels of abuse was most likely a major contributing factor. But not SGM leadership. They arrogantly assumed that they would be able to just throw a bunch of scriptures about how much God hates arrogance at me, not allow me to run for months at a time (or face the consequences of “resisting” a discipline process), and sundry other scare tactics to browbeat me into submission.
It was a joke … and could have been really disastrous if I HAD BEEN anorexic.
Stick with professional help, honey. They’re trained in dealing with the underlying issues that give way to anorexia. It’s so much more about self-loathing, from what I’ve read, than arrogance.
Another thing that saddened me so much was reading about how your family disowned you. Ugh. It would sound so extreme if I hadn’t personally witnessed this happen in a handful of families. I’m so, so sorry! It breaks my heart. And it’s just wrong and flies in the face of God’s heart on so many levels. Even if they arrogantly thought you to be a “prodigal” daughter (which would still be SO wrong), what was the heart of the father toward his son? How do you think he saw him a long way off? Coincidence? No, I think he probably went to the crest of the hill on a daily basis looking for his son and eagerly awaiting his arrival! And he ran TO him, not AWAY from him!
Again, my heart breaks for you! But please, please, please don’t give up and turn to suicide. I say that as one who actually came to the Lord in the midst of a suicide attempt at the age of 16 – that was encouraged by my foster mother. I told her in a moment of weakness, while she was cruelly laying into me about something, “I hate living! I just want to kill myself!” (And that wasn’t an idle threat. I had been seriously contemplating it for two years at that point.) She just looked at me in the eyes with a stone-cold expression and said, “I’m not stopping you.” I broke and became like a crazed animal. It was the most pathetic level of pure, unadulterated despair I had ever experienced to this day.
But God came to me that night as I lay in my bed bleeding out from both of my war-torn wrists (I had used a butcher knife) and brought back words of a Billy Graham crusade I had seen on TV. My prayer (and I’ll never forget it) was simply, “God. If there is a God. If you really do love me and can save my life tonight, it’s yours.” And then I sobbed and started to think about all of the things I’d never experience if He didn’t love me or couldn’t save my life. The will to live started to rise up in me, and I even went over to the phone in my foster father’s bedroom to call 911 b/c I didn’t want to die. But I started to dial the numbers and then thought, “If I call 911 and they come and save me, I’ll never know if You love me or can save my life.” I still can’t believe what I did out of sheer desperation to know if God loved me (you can’t imagine the things I had been told about God!). But I hung up the phone and went back to bed. When I woke up the next morning, I literally dropped to my knees and cried and said over and over, “She’s wrong! You do love me!” I mean over and over. I couldn’t believe it myself.
Please know that I do NOT encourage this kind of do-or-die presumption. But, for me, I was just that desperate to know if God loved me. In my mind, if there weren’t a God or if He didn’t love me or if He were too weak to save my life I simply didn’t want to live. What was the point? I was convinced that all of the horrible things my foster mother told me God would eventually do to me b/c of how “evil” I was, I didn’t want to be around for it.
I didn’t know anything about God. And the only thing I remembered from the few minutes I watched of the crusade was that He loved me and had a “wonderful plan” for my life.” And I didn’t actually live for Him b/c I didn’t know how. The only thing I knew wa that He loved me and saved my life. But the first time I heard the full gospel in a church, as a result of being invited by a customer who came through my line as I was working as a cashier at a grocery store, I gave Him everything and fully committed my life to serving Him.
I wish I could say that I had been “delivered” from suicidal thoughts and never dealt with them again. But it wasn’t that easy. That door had been opened and it continued to be an occasional struggle at really stressful junctures in my adult life. The worst was actually in the midst of our final days at SGM. But getting professional counseling was the best thing I could have done. A really good, compassionate counselor – as you no doubt realize – takes suicidal thoughts and ideations very seriously. A doctor even put me on a very low dose of a newer mood stabilizer that flooded my brain with the seratonin it was sorely lacking, which I can honestly say IMMEDIATELY took away the suicidal thoughts. So, for me, it was largely a biochemical issue – NOT a sin issue as I was told in SGM.
If you ever want to email me, sweetie, you can do so at sgmcasualty (at) gmail.com. No pressure at all. Just PLEASE don’t ever give up. There is abundant life on the other side of what you’re going through now! And your heavenly Father has NEVER rejected or abandoned you! He adores you and watches over you while you sleep and whisper His love in your ear, when you’re defenses are down. He will restore to you everything the enemy has stolen from you in the context of the church! And when you have gotten through this, you will turn and strengthen others who have gone through the mire of church ideologies gone amuck, just like Pia and I have.
Take care, Tina, and thank you for sharing your story here. I will pray for you. Seriously. That’s not a Christian platitude.
February 1st, 2008 at 10:17 am
Hi Tina!
I am so glad that you found this site and feel encouraged to share your story. You went through a lot of unnecessary trama. Instead of treating you with respect, you were probably viewed as a rebellious child who simply needed to get in step with your parents and the church, and that was THE solution!
Obviously, you should have been taken seriously and not put through the SGM machine in hopes that you could come out in working order. In light of everything, I find it hard to believe your parents were Care Group leaders and the pastors of CLC, who have no excuse because you spent time with so many of them, did not point you or your parents to professionals for help.
Your story is alarming, and points out the very real problem that SGM has of not knowing how to adequately address and care for people in serious need of psychological care and evaluation. They presume they can address these problems in house, but lack the training and the expertise to adequately do so. This is so wrong! And then they end up treating you like you’re the problem! The same thing happened to Dan. This kind of problem needs a lot more air time! Lord have mercy!
February 1st, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Claireon you are absolutely right. Tina is not alone. When you think about it ,the church is full of broken people but it is not Jesus who is healing them. The under shepherds are doing a very poor job. I am reminded of the young man a few months ago in Colo who committed suicide.His connections were YWAM and Gothard and homeschooling. I hate to say it but some hefty investigations and lawsuits might stop alot of these type of stories. It is incompetence. In secular settings people loose their licenses,facilities are shut down over issues like this.
I am reminded of many times in the old testament in particular when the prophets sensed Gods judgement and they would prostrate themselves. Lord have mercy is right. Anyone who has ears to hear let him hear what the Lord is saying about these matters.
Why some of the better christian counseling centers and authors aren’t sounding an alarm I don’t know but I know they see the fallout.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:44 pm
Everyone -
Thank you so so much for your incredible welcome! In the program I’m attending right now I’m at the hospital eleven hours a day and don’t have much spare time, but in every free moment I’ve been on this site reading up on all the entries I’ve missed. As I told my therapist today, this is the first time I have ever felt validated in my feelings about SGM. Up until now, I’d been convinced I must be exaggerating or making up slanderous stories or just plain lying for some reason, as my family and old friends assure me I must have misunderstood something, that the leadership never behaves as I remember them doing. And now, reading all of these posts and comments, I feel this absolute sense of relief for the affirmation of all these crazy stories of very real experiences, not made up.
Pia-
Dude, I’m seriously wondering if I might know you… At least, I knew a woman named Pia at CLC who started attending in I think the late 90s, was single and friends with my parents; she came to our house for dinner every once in a while. It’s not that common a name so it makes me curious… I wish I could remember her last name! Tucker, maybe? Pia, maybe you remember me… My dad’s name is Rick, and I went by Kristin way back when. I was a skinny little kid with mouse brown hair and green eyes bigger than my head. :-P
SGM Casualty -
I am so grateful for your thoughtful reply. I truly appreciate your trust and openness in sharing such a personal story with a stranger!
As for my mental health, I think I can safely say that I’m in the best and safest place I’ve been in years. The program I’m in is incredible and well-planned out, the staff are simply amazing. I’ve seen over a dozen therapists over the years and the woman who is my primary therapist is the most skillful, incredible therapist I’ve ever had. (She actually started her career at RENFREW, which is one of the top two eating disorder centers in the country.) While I’m feeling more grief than I’ve felt in a while, I’m also feeling more hopeful than I have in ages. Even though all this trauma is being relived and painful memories revisited, I feel like it finally has a point. I’m not remembering in nightmares anymore, but contained sessions where I can process and learn how to deal with them and move on. It’s a wonderful feeling! Additionally, I’m at long last on a medical combination which actually works and really does help my depression. They were starting to talk about tricyclics or even ECT before this last-ditch SSRI actually helped.
I would absolutely love to e-mail you. My address is novareproject@gmail.com. I may leave the first e-mail to you, I’m afraid, as I’m feeling incredibly overwhelmed by all the stress I’m facing at the moment. In fact, I really need to get to sleep now, as I have to be up at six AM for program.
Take care, everyone, and god bless!
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:15 am
Welcome Tina, I’m glad you are here.
It feels good to know that there are others who have been through the mist, doesn’t it? I look forward to “getting to know you” as you have time. {{{{{hugs}}}}}}
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Sonya wrote:
I realize I don’t know Tina’s full story, but based on what I’ve read so far, I’m going to go on a little rant. Hope you all don’t mind!
It boggles my mind that Tina’s parents seemed to do too little too late to address their daughters suffering – aside from taking her to talk to a string of men in CLC leadership. I understand that parents have the right to educate their children at home if they choose to, but it makes me wonder why Tina was overlooked in a church that is big on “making observations”.
Did CLC support the parents all the way because they were dyed-in-the-wool SGM’ers? Did anyone in CLC get seriously involved enough to step in? And now their daughter has been disowned?? Hello? According to Tina, the church has supported this decision and her father never talks to her? Where is her mother?
Could it be that no one made any move to seek professional help for this girl because of what the professionals might discover? Could it be the parents were more interested in protecting their interests (like homeschooling) over the best interests of their child?
I guess the reason I’m saying some of this also has to do with what I thought about the story of the family that homeschooled their kids and their oldest daughter ran off and eloped. Although sometimes problems are due to an unruly child who is wild, rebellious, strong willed and refuses to obey even when the best efforts are made to prevent a child from taking the wrong path. Normally, when a child acts out, the behavior isn’t something isolated to a one-time event but is the result of some pattern of behavior. I’m no expert, but I think that is what a family therapist would take a look at.
According to some SGM siblings who have posted here, the “company line” in reference to the elopement of their sister was that she was rebellious and disobedient (for which, we are told, she made apublic apology). Perhaps in that case, as in the case of Tina’s parents, the parents were protected because the decisions they had made in regards to the upbringing of their children were ones endorsed by SGM, which would make them partly culpable. When your organization prides itself on having a stellar reputation supported by glowing reports, wouldn’t you want to protect that, even at the cost of someone like Tina, or the daughter of a family that you know would decide to stay on the payroll?
February 3rd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Tina, my dear, dear sister,
Yes, I do remember your father because he was one of the active members at CLC when I was there but I’m not sure if I knew him as a caregroup leader though. I left that church in 1991 to join its sister church here in California and was a member of Abundant Life Covenant Church for a few years after that. So…I’m probably not that Pia if you met her in the late 90′s.
But even if we have never met…I feel like we have. You and I could be soul sisters. While I never struggled with anorexia (even though my sisters thought I did because I was always so skinny growing up and actually forced me to see their therapist about this), I struggled with all the self-loathing, self-hurting, and self-destructive thoughts and behaviors that you speak of. I’ve been through lots of different types of “recovery” programs and checking myself into a hospital because I was so suicidal one time was one of them. (I have to admit that thoughts of suicide, while not intense anymore, still crosses my mind from time to time. My therapist says it’s because my oldest brother successfully committed suicide and I always think it’s an option when the pain gets too much.)
You’re right–while it was hard to have to look at all my “mess” in that place (because that’s all they ever make you do)–it was also one of the safest and most helpful places I’ve ever been. I too found HOPE at the hospital and yes, even LOVE…unconditional, non-judgmental love from the staff and my co-patients…love I never got from all the ministry groups I was a part of at CLC or ALCC.
As you may or may not have read from a previous post, I am now a high school teacher and I’m also a part of our homeless ministry at my new church. I have many friends who are students, former students, homeless drug addicts/alcoholics and “lazy bums on the street” who are considered the “rejects” of society–misunderstood and disowned by their own family members, considered “hopeless” cases and have known more critical judgment, disdain and disgust from their fellow human beings than the simple love and acceptance they’ve always longer for (God designed us to be vessels, needing to be filled up with love). I am not always successful in showing them this love–years and years of religious training by my Catholic background growing up and my PDI, CLC and ALCC experiences as a young adult, are still hard to discard– but I truly am trying to just LOVE as Jesus loved the unlovable, the “unholy” Samaritans, the lepers, the tax collectors and the prostitutes of His day. If He were here today, I have no doubt He would be co-mingling with the patients in the psych wards and going out into the public schools, the offices, the streets, befriending the cutters, the head bangers, the anorexics, the bulimics and the suicide attempters. There is no doubt in my mind that He wept many tears with you as you cried yourself to sleep many times, wondering if there was anyone out there who really loved you just for you.
When you are feeling more stable, and you’ve found the medication that works for you and you are solidly attending professional support groups (with trained facilitators who know what they’re doing) and hopefully seeing an individual therapist on a regular basis (I still see mine once a week–sometimes twice–she is such a blessing to me especially when I have “flashbacks” of the harder times in my life), you will be such a gift to the Body of Christ! Not because you are perfect and you are ready to be displayed as a “finished work.” On the contrary, it is your very brokenness, your ongoing weaknesses, your failures, and the fact that you’ve been through so much crap in your life–esp. in the hands of modern-day religious Pharisees–that will be the very means that God will use you to help others someday (something SGM Casualty and others in this site have pointed out to me). Because through it all, the fact remains, honey: YOU ARE ALIVE! Lesser people would be dead by now if they walked in your shoes.
So embrace the pain…embrace all your darkness in that safe place…learn to love God’s own pressing hand upon you (not the church’s or anyone else’s) which may seem like such a crushing weight at times. Just remember Romans 9:33: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in Him will never be put to shame.” For me, this means lesser men might stumble on this stone and not get up, lesser men might have this rock fall on them and just give up, but you, Tina, you’re a fighter. If you weren’t such a fighter, you would have become one of these mindless, spineless wimps that churches like SGM sometimes churns out just to be on the safe side. No, you are a young woman of integrity, an honest truth seeker carrying so much pain with as much dignity as you can muster all alone…no more a sinner than the next guy.
I have no doubt the fighter in you will embrace this necessary pain of cleansing and healing right now at the hospital (much like one must undergo painful surgery to get rid of the more dangerous, albeit invisible, culprit of cancer that can truly kill) because there is truth yelling inside of you that you finally found the right way this time!
If I may share this one last thing that not all hospitals, unless they are Christian-based, will tell you. For me, there is one main truth I know, Jesus truly IS the only way, the only truth and the only light. Believe it or not, this truth alone has kept me going through all the deceptions and lies thrown at me by my family and by my church. Jesus, the Rock, can be trusted–if You continue to just look to Him and Him alone (again, no one else) then He can indeed take away all your guilt and shame in time and you will come out of this more beautiful, more whole and more free than you have ever felt before! It is possible! THIS is the true gospel of Jesus Christ!
He came to set you free…and when you fully embrace this one truth…you will be free indeed!
I love you my sister, my new friend…
Pia
February 3rd, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Hi Pia,
What an excellent word of encouragement! Fixing our eyes on Jesus! He ALONE is the Author and Perfector of our faith! No one else! NO ONE!
February 3rd, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Pia,
Wow, girl! What a powerful post! Way to “turn and strengthen” Tina. What an example you are. And thank you for not white washing your experiences to make them more “palatable” to those with finer sensibilities who would never dream of having a conversation with anyone about something like cutting or suicidal ideations.
I’m so sorry to hear your brother committed suicide. That hit me hard. There were two kids who committed suicide in one year at my high school, and it hit kids hard. But still no one talked about it. Ever.
But when I was teaching at a Christian high school, one of my students attempted suicide. It prompted me to take a risk and share my testimony with my students and urge them to not try to deal with these temptations by themselves or with the help of their peers, whose shoulders weren’t intended to carry a burden like that. The principal then had me share my testimony with the whole school during chapel shortly thereafter. I found out later that there was an influx of kids who reached out to various teachers and counselors at the school.
The fact is we have no idea how many people could be quietly, anonymously reading this blog who are dealing with some of the more serious issues all three of us have had to tackle. I’m sure it’s hard for some to read, but I think it’s important to get out in the open.
I love you both.
February 5th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Hi Dennis! I have begun to read the book you recommended on apostles, accountability and spiritual authority. So refreshing to read something written by a former abusive leader who has “been there and done that,” repented and is now a strong voice crying out in the wilderness so others might turn back as well and become the true spiritual fathers they were meant to be. I love the way he writes–thanks so much for recommending it! Everyone in this blog should read it!
SGM, I love you too!!! Your words are always so encouraging and it gladdens my heart to know that God has been using your testimony to speak to so many young people. I wish you could come to my school and talk to some of my kids at my high school. By the way, one of my student disciplees was looking for a book to read for her book report. She is a Christian kid who comes from a very dysfunctional and toxic family/church system that taught her about God but whose members didn’t really practice what they preached (sounds familiar?). I gave her “A Child Called It” and she said it was very powerful and helped her see how, despite how difficult her childhood might have been–God can truly turn all things for good!
Tina, I am praying for you…
Blessings…
Pia
February 6th, 2008 at 12:54 am
Pia,
I think you encouraged all of us! And your words will go now from me to others to also encourage! Thanks so much for reminding all of us what our weary souls need, no matter how small or great our pain. We just need Jesus!! Thank you!!
Hey Kris,
Can we give her a dozen homebaked cookies?
February 7th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Hi Freedathink!
I’ve been meaning to thank you for your response to my post sometime ago! It really blessed me! You too have been on quite the journey and I’m glad that you and your daughter, and hopefully, other members of your family are well on their way to greater healing and wholeness in Christ–regardless of how things were in the past. Now you know…it was all preparation “for such a time as this”! May the Lord shower you with multiple blessings as you go out and preach the TRUTH that you not only know but have truly lived!
And yes, I’d love a dozen homebaked cookies
!!!
Love,
Pia
February 11th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
I know I have joined this post late but I wanted to put my two cents in.
As far as something that was stated early on in the topic about 1 Tim 3 and the guidelines for pastors. Here in [State Name] the man responsible for the “oversight” of [State Name] own son was caught in a web of lies and was also caught more than once [in a sinful situation]. His father is still the “overseer” for the [State Name] churches, how does that fit the 1 Tim 3 mold? I don’t know if this was brought up earlier I didn’t have time to read all the previous posts, so sorry if this is a repeat for anyone. Also I must say that I was lectured numerous times about my association with the local calvary chapel that I grew up in and still was active in the youth helping with all sorts of things simply because they weren’t sovreign grace. I also have been involved in short term missions trips since I was a freshman in highschool (now a freshman in college). My first three short term missions trips were not acknowledged or supported in any way by the SGM church I was attending, but when I went on a “Mission:X” trip last summer the church fully supported me both in word and in financial support. Tell me what is wrong with that picture?
February 11th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Oh and Hi everyone I’m new here
February 11th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Blacklisted,
Hi, and welcome to the site!
I don’t know that anyone has ever actually brought up the specific situation you addressed in your comment about the [State Name] overseer. While I agree with you that this situation doesn’t sound appropriate (and seems quite atypical for SGM, actually), I think I’d be almost MORE uncomfortable if it were standard operating procedure for an SGM overseer to be punished or penalized for the wrongdoings of his adult children.
Your point about SGM’s lack of support for non-SGM missions is really too bad. While I do know that several SG folks have come on here and stated that their churches actually DO support missions, many others have shared stories similar to yours. Did you ever get any “official” feedback as to why they did not support your non-SGM trips?
February 11th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
No they did not, they hardly even acknowledged the trips at all. Also what I’ve noticed in this area SG folks think that a once a year pancake breakfest to the neighborhood that is coupled with a church garage sale (get the people in with free pancakes, sell them stuff at way higher than normal garage sale prices) as missions. They also believe that feeding people rehearsed lines on the city bus is missions. Missions is clothing the naked, feeding the hungry (without trying to sell them stuff), giving drink to the thirsty and sheltering those with no homes. I have not heard once of a SG church doing that.
February 12th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Hi Blacklisted,
This is the first I’ve heard of the situation you mentioned. How long ago did this all come out, do you know? What was the “word on the street”? Do you have any more information? Do you know if an official statement has been issued about the situation or anything thing like that? Considering what a high priority SGM places on children as evidence of effective parenting and leadership skills, I’m very surprised that the leader you mentioned hasn’t been sent to the SGM Rehab Center in Gaithersburg, Maryland for a full evaluation. Very intriguing.
Also, I know what you mean about SGM missions. It seems their idea of missions is to plant churches and I don’t see much money being used to support community and/or missionary work outside of SGM – unless someone sits on the board of a particular organization.
February 12th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Hi, Blacklisted, and Claireon…
This is one of those times when I feel like I have to be a darn pesky censor. While I believe it is appropriate to discuss in general terms situations that arise where injustices might have taken place, I feel like the specifics of these situations (such as the one we’re talking about right now) are veering a little too close to gossip for my comfort. That’s why I edited the comments (mine and “Blacklisted’s”) for mentions of the state where this took place and the details of the particular sinful situation.
I hope everyone understands. Sometimes I’m not even sure myself where to draw the line. I just have to go by my conscience. I’d appreciate your prayers for wisdom to know when to step in and when to sit back.
Thanks! :-)
February 12th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Hi All, I am also mom to Blacklisted :-) Kris, I think I can say that we agree w/you re: someone not being penalized for what their adult children do, but I think what has been so upsetting re: the overseer’s child is not that he was not held responsible for his adult child’s actions, but that the ‘discipline’ in SGM is not equally applied. Others have been disfellowshipped for similar or less sinful engagements, but not this kiddo. Justice is not meted out equally………..
February 12th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Ah, I see what Blacklisted and exinternsmom are getting at.
February 12th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Thanks….and fwiw, I agree w/you about being more careful in sharing specifics…we need to keep it more general.
I have been reading through some of the previous posts, as time allows….re: accountability, I just want to say that in general, accountability can be a very positive, uplifting way of encouraging each other to follow Jesus closely. But …….in our SGM church, accountability was really a smokescreen for the free for all, face to face bashing that took place. Everyone was taught to point out sin in others, regardless of age, position, or even whether or not you actually KNEW a person. For example, a kid ‘felt led’ to point out a sin to me….he was young enough to be my son, he was rude, patronizing, disrespectful–wrong about what he thought he ‘saw’ as sin AND he hardly knew me. When I tried to have a discussion with him about it, he shouted over me and told me I needed to get right w/God and w/the leadership. That is NOT accountability!!!
March 6th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Travis-
You are brave-please hang in there, I think you did the right thing.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
[...] met with a general unwillingness to discuss my questions and concerns; rather, the conversation was continually focused on challenging my lack of trust in and respect for them. They couldn’t understand how my trust was largely dependent on their actions and approaches [...]