Open Letter Upon Release Of SGM Panel Report On Tomczak Departure
7 Concerns
Larry and Doris Tomczak
A week ago my wife and I completed a 21 day fast to seek the Lord for 2012. Near the top of our list were issues related to SGM (Sovereign Grace Ministry). At the end of the fast we received a call from Dave Harvey, interim President of the ministry, wanting to ask forgiveness for his sinful behavior towards us and our family almost 15 years ago. A week later he sent us an advance copy of their panel report dealing with our departure from SGM.
What follows is our public response to this public report. It would serve the reader to first read the statement we made available on our website larrytomczak.com entitled, “The Tomczak Departure from SGM – What Really Happened?”
As Doris and I said in our “Departure” statement, we are not blameless in our journey. We love all those involved and simply present here observations that either amplify or adjust some points expressed in the SGM report. We forgave our brethren years ago but, as a matter of integrity, present here seven significant points that need to be addressed.
1. BIAS
The hope of onlookers regarding the panel was for an unbiased 3rd party to assess a few of the critical issues and offer their wisdom. Unfortunately, the examination was basically handled “in house” by sincere men who had a definite stake in the outcome – namely their livelihood and the preservation of the ministry image.
The SGM board member and two SGM senior pastors who wrote the report are to be commended for their hard work. This was an unenviable task because of their longstanding close association with SGM leaders, direct involvement in the ministry, and their families’ ties with many church members. Would they “get in trouble” if they stated things contrary to what other senior leaders desired in the outcome?
When President Clinton was being accused of immoral and unethical behavior, an independent counsel, Kenneth Starr, was brought in with his team to investigate matters for Congress and the American people. If something similar happened to our current President, you would not think it wise to have fellow Democrats, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid leading the panel! Yet this was the approach chosen by the SGM board. And while others objected, we felt it was important to participate despite our misgivings and trust God to work through a less than ideal process.
2. BLACKMAIL
On October 14, 1997 our journal entry records the following: “Larry and our child talked by phone with a lawyer. He advised Larry to tell the Team (the board) to ‘not even think of using our child’s confessed sins to blackmail Larry.’ ‘It’s blackmail and punishable by jail, prosecuted in every state – no exceptions. It’s a breach of penitent/counselor confidentiality.’”
When Ted Kober, the President of Ambassadors of Reconciliation heard the tape recording of what was said to us repeatedly by the Team he dropped his head in dismay while his associate literally wiped away tears.
The panel report says, “CJ allowed for the possibility of making known their child’s sin if Larry communicated that he was leaving SGM over doctrinal disagreement.” This minimizes CJ’s sin and describes it far too mildly. He made a direct, emphatic and unethical threat. He was not allowing for the possibility, he was promising to expose our child. In our conversation, we confronted him three times with the word “blackmail” to describe his threats. His exact words back to us were “I’m stating it!” He threatened us with blackmail!
- At the first mention of the threat, Doris called CJ on it: “That’s blackmail!”
- In two subsequent taped conversations with other SGM leaders we again labeled it “blackmail.”
- An attorney from whom we sought counsel defined it as “blackmail.”
- National leaders who heard the tape recordings referred to it as “blackmail.”
I read the following words to CJ in Nashville from Webster’s dictionary:
“Blackmail: extortion (the act of obtaining from a person by force or undue or illegal power or ingenuity) by threats especially of public exposure.”
Webster’s dictionary defines what it is and, as they say, “It is what it is!” Why soft-pedal this coercive threat that was used to obtain our silence? Plus we have the recordings to prove it and have requested on several occasions that the SGM board and others that were involved listen with us to themselves on the tapes before there’s asking of forgiveness. To date they have dismissed our request.
While CJ, and the SGM board and the panel report acknowledge what happened was “coercive, wrong and sinful,” they all stop short of being specific about the most egregious offense which is immoral, illegal and unethical. It was premeditated, repeated and agreed upon by all the leadership team. (The report makes this clear.)
Departed board members Paul Palmer and Brent Detwiler both cited “blackmail” when they asked forgiveness – the former over 8 years ago! Yet when Dave Harvey called us the week before the report’s release, he (like CJ, Steve Shank and Larry Malament) hedged on using the accurate and serious designation.
Isn’t it time to once and for all stop any “spin,” man up, and confess it for what it is? And an addendum…if CJ and Steve have a “vague recollection” (as stated in the report) of CJ supposedly calling us within a few days to “withdraw the threat” so it really didn’t “hang over” us for over a decade, why when CJ and Steve called our child 5 years later to finally ask forgiveness for some of the areas of offense did they still refuse to call and ask forgiveness of Doris and me even when our child asked them to? Why would it take 14 years before CJ and Steve would finally confess the injustice and even then “tone it down” with softer terminology? These are real questions that warrant real answers. By the way, they have a “vague recollection” of some call. WE HAVE NO RECOLLECTION of any such call! We wouldn’t have forgotten it or failed to put it in our journal of those events!!
3. BREACH OF CONFIDENTIALITY
The vow of confidentiality that CJ made to our child is sacrosanct and inviolable. Tragically, CJ broke this vow by divulging details to a person who is trustworthy and who came forward with the specifics. The report said, “CJ has no recollection of this conversation,” and then moved on. A serious ethics violation of this magnitude cannot be brushed off as seemingly insignificant. A man of sterling character who described in detail what was said to him by CJ in violation of a clergy/penitent vow has to be given weighty consideration. It should be considered alongside of other sinful conduct surfacing in a leader who is under investigation. More is needed here. In addition to this event, Larry Malament also revealed confidential details to other members of the SGM Team and local leaders in a conference call we were a part of on October 8, 1997. Later, a Team member relayed that Larry M. also did this on another occasion and stands ready to testify accordingly.
4. BREAKING THE MATT. 18 ETHIC IN A PUBLIC ASSEMBLY
At Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland (a church that we co-founded in our apartment and in which we invested 15 years of our lives), CJ stood before over 1,000 people (with guests and unbelievers present) and branded me a “liar.” He admits he instructed technicians to “turn off the tape” and did say, “I’d rather be dead than do what Larry Tomczak is doing.” In spite of several witnesses (for example, one teenage boy told us he confronted CJ to his face a few days later) and having been confronted with his exact words in print for over a decade, the report says, “CJ does not recall saying anything along these lines.” We do not believe this is sufficient reason for dismissing the charge.
Last year at Covenant Life Church, CJ acknowledged some of his sinful attitudes in the above episode. Many believe his confession was incomplete; he minimized the severity of public slander in violation of Matthew 18:15-17; and still needs to make amends for debasing in a single moment a leader’s reputation built upon 25 years of Christian ministry.
5. BANISHMENT
Over the years one of the most common accusations brought against SGM is one where former members are shunned or banished after disagreement with leaders or simply choosing to leave the church. The report confirmed this to be our experience, with which multitudes identify.
The panel cited CJ’s public criticisms “was the death of Larry’s reputation at CLC…church members stopped interacting with them.” [We would add these included close relatives for many years.] CJ sent a letter to pastors asking them “not to engage in casual conversation or pursue fellowship with Larry.” He penned a letter to thousands of folks throughout the movement of churches suggesting I was under “church discipline” when I never was. This manipulated people into shunning us by confusing them. Friendships built for years were shattered overnight. The panel members were courageous in allowing this material to be included. What needs to be underscored is how, under CJ’s leadership, instruction, and personal example, this un-Christlike treatment of us and many others of God’s precious sheep was allowed to flourish. Some SGM board members, local pastors and church members are guilty of blindly following his lead.
Our experience brings this to the surface and should not be ignored. We turned over to the panel the names of over 105 leadership couples who experienced spiritual abuse in SGM. Imagine how many other church members have also been victims.
Families have been devastated, close friendships destroyed and children have turned away from the Lord and church involvement in the wake of this uncharitable practice. Our own extended family was divided and still feels the painful effects of this ungodly treatment until this very day.
Where this has happened, may leaders humbly repent and change their ways to allow a new season of blessing and favor for SGM. The report says this is not “systemic”. The reality is, it has been a pattern that has devastated our immediate and extended families plus scores of God’s people across the country. It must be acknowledged, confessed and renounced. Our situation brings it into the light so changes can be made to avert future hurt and relational devastation.
6. BETRAYAL
When I consented to take a leave of absence to deal with family matters, I had every intention of returning to my leadership position in our local church and in SGM. This is very significant to grasp! In the months preceding the blackmail, our entire family experienced “lording over, abuse of authority, manipulation and control” (which CJ confessed and asked forgiveness for in our December, 2010 Nashville reconciliation). This treatment brought us to the point where it was untenable and as a matter of conscience, we had to leave SGM. We literally felt as an entire family we were under “house arrest” with our every action, word and motive scrutinized and questioned. The legalism became unbearable. The report also acknowledges I was “stuck,” left without any process of appeal.
The report cited how I initially “gave agreement” to Reformed doctrinal tenets, but later changed my mind. There is truth to this but two points need to be made: 1) I, like many former SGM leaders who had also left over the doctrinal changes, was wavering and reluctant to comply. I finally mustered the courage to speak up, die to “fear of man” and express my true sentiments regarding differences of doctrine. 2) My major battle was with the fear of man in an atmosphere of intimidation and man-pleasing. I remember sitting in a “Team” meeting where it was said, “Mark Altrogee and Benny Phillips (SGM senior pastors viewed as suspect at the time) may have to be let go if they don’t agree with the Reformed Doctrine.” I thought, “Larry, be careful – will I be next?” I should have spoken up and suffered the potential consequences. I confess my former cowardice.
What wasn’t made clear in the panel’s report are related and significant points revealing the depth of betrayal I encountered.
- Criteria established by SGM leaders for returning to my former role as senior pastor made it an impossibility unless I embraced certain Reformed doctrinal tenets which in my conscience I could not do.
- People nationwide were deliberately misled. An example would be, “It was always our intention to see Larry restored as senior pastor.” Numerous disingenuous public statements and letters went out to SGM churches and nationwide which misrepresented what actually happened.
- My “7 Reasons for Departing PDI” (SGM) were not conveyed to people as I requested.
- My “confession” letter was the result of intimidation which forced me to use loaded terms, affirm SGM leaders and insert material with which I was uncomfortable, but required to include.
- At a public church meeting, CJ instructed me to nod in agreement with what he would say while I appealed that I couldn’t do it in good conscience.
- Three former SGM board members, two former administrators and three of the Atlanta leaders in the church at that time (who have all left SGM) cite “abuse of spiritual authority, over lording, and deceitful conduct” in their experience. This is tragic.
Scripture calls us to “restore” struggling Christians in a “spirit of gentleness” (Gal.6:1). Although most of the leaders have come forward to repent and ask forgiveness for what was done to us (as the report reveals), what needs to be understood are the aspects of betrayal and levels of deceit that forced our departure from a ministry we co-founded and never intended to leave.
“Did you leave without the leaders’ blessing?”
Yes – we believe we had no alternative.
“Did you honor your commitment to not return to public ministry for ‘at least 6 months’?”
Yes – on the exact date the 6 month season expired, I spoke for the first time on a Sunday to an inner city church gathering at the invitation of a dear friend.
7. BAD THEOLOGY
This point can be made briefly. Over the years SGM has experienced “bad fruit” from “bad theology” and, thank God, begun to make changes. The panel stated the obvious, uncharitable treatment we endured, the lack of compassionate care in a difficult family situation, the “over emphasis on indwelling sin,” etc., etc.
A number of the same SGM board members and pastors who attacked us judgmentally have now experienced their own family “issues” which tempered them and drove them to confess their sinful, self-righteousness to us, several of them in genuine tears.
The report highlighted how “misguided” it was to believe the idea that “good pastors = good kids” and admitted “that there was too much of a link made between Larry’s parenting and his child’s sin.”
Other areas could be cited but our point here is that CJ and SGM leaders should be more forthright in their public repentance through public statements addressing where they veered off course theologically. Multitudes believe there still is too much “spin” and “self-vindication” among top-tier leaders.
A nationally known leader and frequent speaker at SGM churches and conferences told me something months ago that I can’t forget. For close to two decades this man has provided counsel and instruction to SGM and has intimate knowledge of the inner workings and problems of the ministry. Here’s his observation:
“The number one problem with many of the Sovereign Grace Ministry leaders is their propensity for self-vindication.”
We suggest you pause here and reread this leader’s observation.
May this panel’s report, our two published statements, as well as constructive criticism to SGM from numerous places (see the email at the end of this document from a former long-time SGM pastor) in this “time of discipline” for Sovereign Grace Ministry and its primary leaders, help these men to address unbiblical positions and practices to honor the Lord, heal wounds, and regain favor as an overall ministry.
POST SCRIPT: BLAMELESS [AND ABOVE REPROACH]?
In order to be faithful to criteria for Biblical leadership, SGM must steer clear of the sin of favoritism and partiality [starting with CJ], and be consistent with what was expected of former SGM leaders. The question still remains: should the SGM senior leaders step down for a season to be retooled for ministry according to I Pet. 5:1-5; Titus 1:5-9; I Tim.3:1-7; and I Tim. 5:17-24? Perhaps the best way to answer this is the following: “If the things in the panel’s report, in our two statements, and in the accompanying email came to light regarding your pastor, would you give him a “pass?” Would you deem him fit for ministry according to the qualifications of Scripture?
“Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be blameless...” 1 Tim 3:1-2
BELOW IS A LETTER (E-MAIL) WE RECEIVED FROM A FORMER, LONGTIME SGM PASTOR. WE READ IT AFTER WE COMPLETED OUR “OPEN LETTER” AND FOUND THE OBSERVATIONS TIMELY, ACCURATE AND ILLUMINATING. WHEN GROUPS OF SGM LEADERS ARE MENTIONED, WE’D OFFER THAT THERE ARE DEGREES OF CULPABILITY. REMEMBER PAUL PALMER AND BRENT DETWILER, DEPARTED SGM LEADERS, CONFESSED AND REPENTED OF BLACKMAIL WHILE WE STILL AWAIT THAT RESPONSE FROM THE OTHER SGM LEADERS. HERE IS THE LETTER:
Friends,
First of all, I believe that the panel was inappropriately tasked to ask the Wrong Questions. He who frames the questions controls the debate, and I believe that’s exactly what the SGM Board attempted to do. Given the gravity of the situation, I don’t think three questions were nearly enough. But given the three, here’s my opinion of what they should have been:
1. Not – “Was CJ’s participation in fellowship in keeping with the teachings of scripture?”
Rather – “Did CJ violate the standards of fellowship, confession and repentance that he imposed on other SGM pastors & leaders? Did CJ behave in a manner that would not have been tolerated by any other SGM pastors under his authority? (Broaden the scope of the question to consider any wider patterns of double-standard hypocrisy. For example, did CJ’s own son act out in ways that would have, and did, get other SGM pastors fired from their jobs? Are there any other “high-status” leaders in SGM, whose teenagers experienced behavioral troubles, but they and their jobs were “protected” – unlike other SGM pastors before them?) In other words: Was CJ giving himself the benefit of living by different standards than he espoused and enforced?”
2. Not – “Did CJ wrongly influence the process of Brent’s dismissal from Mooresville?”
Rather – “Did CJ demonstrate a historical pattern of marginalizing and disposing of SGM leaders that did not meet up to his subjective, extra-biblical standards? Did he “shun” them and teach others to do so by his example? Was Brent already a “dead-man-walking” before he even started at Mooresville because CJ had already punished him, for self-serving reasons, with the loss of status & ministry? Did CJ preside over and infuse an entire SGM culture with an extra-biblical pattern of dismissing & casting aside some of its own pastor/leaders in an unloving and unreasonable manner?”
3. Not – “Was Larry Tomczak’s departure from SGM handled properly?”
Rather – “Did CJ attempt to blackmail Larry Tomczak by means of thoroughly unethical threats against his family? Did other members of the SGM board do the same? Was it a “heat-of-the-moment” threat made out of emotion & quickly regretted, or was it a “cold-blooded” & purposeful act, only rejected 11 days later after severe rebuke from a respected lawyer. (In other words, did CJ & others back off by reason of moral repentance or functional impracticality? It seems clear that they did not immediately express any sorrowful repentance to Larry and his family.) Is attempted blackmail an “ordinary” sin or a “scandalous” one?
On a secondary note, if the panels wish to address the legitimate question of whether Larry Tomczak’s departure was handled properly, they needed to dig back a little further. Larry’s departure began much earlier with his systematic marginalization from SGM ministry. After CJ assumed primary leadership of the organization, he acted to steadily limit Larry’s influence and opportunities there. He greatly limited Larry’s involvement in CLC, a church he had co-founded. He greatly limited his role as a speaker at SGM conferences and events. Larry had to move his church membership to Fairfax in an attempt to find meaningful involvement. Similar to Brent’s experience many years later, Larry had to move on to new territory, in Atlanta, to attempt a new church plant in order to satisfy his God-given desires to serve in ministry. The handling of the departure of Larry Tomczak from SGM began years before the blackmail. The whole process of fault-finding, leading to marginalization and more fault-finding, leading to removal and eventually active shunning needs to be examined. Especially in light of the widespread impression that this represents a pattern that was repeated with many other leaders in SGM.
Further questions:
A. Why does the panel lean so heavily on quoting Larry’s letter of resignation & repentance as a defense for CJ, seeming to implicate SGM’s partial justification in light of Larry’s admitted faults? That letter is actually “Exhibit A” in a very serious suggestion of abuse-of-power and manipulative practice by SGM. Many other deposed SGM pastors have been required to write similar self-incriminating letters against themselves. It’s a wonderful CYA tool for SGM, and is being used as such right before our very eyes. The problem is that these letters are frequently coerced and highly influenced by SGM. They are frequently edited to make sure they come out the way SGM wants them to sound. Larry, and other pastors in similar positions, was under enormous pressure to go along with the program and write what would satisfy those who wielded the power over his life and future. Think in terms of communist Chinese re-education camp confessions. That letter of Larry’s represents a shameful exercise in SGM bullying, manipulation, intimidation and abuse. They should be ashamed of using it against him now.
B. The report cites the board’s appeal for Larry to continue with their program of rehabilitation rather than leave prematurely. They so wanted him not to leave for the wrong reasons. They claimed this was a matter of integrity. And they so wanted to be able to commend him after a successful restoration process. The problem with this line of reasoning is that THERE WAS NO PROGRAM OR PROCESS OF RESTORATION!!!!! Just ask the other 100-150 pastors who have been cut loose by SGM. What is the recidivism rate for SGM pastors who have been deposed? Between 1-2%? Stick around for restoration? Really? SGM has no history of restoring pastors. SGM has a lot of explaining to do about its pattern of “throw-away” pastors.
C. The “ironic” integrity apparently sought by the SGM leaders, in dictating Larry’s departure terms, seemed to revolve around the proper portrayal of Larry’s disqualification as a poor parent. People who have been around Larry’s family know that is patently unfair! (Again I am reminded of the extra-biblical standards which were used as a cudgel on former pastors with teenage kids but which were no longer applied in later years to CJ and other “high status” SGM leaders.) Bear in mind the situation at the heart of the coercion. It involved a 17-18 year old young man who was not caught in his sin. Rather, he had taken personal initiative to expose his own failings by seeking out and confessing to spiritual leaders in the vain hope of finding help to experience the grace of God. Question: Did these highly-placed SGM leaders represent God well as conduits of His grace? This is the fuller context of the blackmail.
D. In the panel’s attempt to minimize the seriousness of the blackmail, (ie. It did not continue for a decade like Larry intimated… CJ & Dave & Brent & Steve were motivated by their desire to “protect” the movement of churches… They wanted to frame Larry’s departure with “ironic” integrity… They never acted to follow through on their empty threat…), the panel members overlooked an important point. The threat of blackmail actually worked!! By their own admission, Larry did NOT mention doctrinal differences in his departure explanations, even though he clearly wanted to. The coercion was effective!! CJ and the board were saved from the legal liabilities of applying blackmail, but they ended up achieving the desired goal.
E. If CJ had truly repented of his offenses towards Larry, why didn’t he act expeditiously to bring Larry back to CLC to publicly redress his public slander of Larry before the church? He publicly called Larry a liar and said that, “I’d rather be dead than do what Larry’s doing.” CJ actively destroyed much of Larry’s reputation and many of his long-time relationships at CLC and beyond, but was grossly inadequate in taking measures to publicly restore him.
Closing thought: I found it very disturbing that the panel overseeing the Tomczak blackmail repeated claimed to present findings in a way that was slanted against CJ. It seemed absolutely the opposite to me. I thought they took every opportunity to place Larry in a negative light in order to minimize the culpability of CJ & the gang. They repeatedly highlighted mitigating circumstances that took the edge off the crime perpetrated by CJ, Dave, Brent & Steve. And then, the SGM board has the audacity to refer to the panel’s report as “objective”.
Objective?!?!?!? That was never even a remote possibility given the make-up of the panels. Please don’t insult our intelligence by anointing them with “objectivity”. In fact, the SGM Board should make known the criteria by which the panel members were selected. The original process of selecting “jurists” was supposed to have some aspects of randomness. Can the Board unequivocally assure us that they did NOT hand pick the panelists of their choice and rule out the pastors that they didn’t want? Please defend the integrity of the process.
And now we wait for the AoR report. But that has already been re-framed for us as merely a catalogue of local grievances presented without corroborating witnesses or cross-examination. Something to learn from and use for making changes and addressing deficiencies. But apparently having no bearing on any evaluation of the qualifications of senior SGM leadership.
February 7th, 2012 at 11:45 am
Blues0080.. :goodpost
February 7th, 2012 at 12:00 pm
Wiz Wit,
LOVE your name!
February 7th, 2012 at 12:06 pm
Yes, :welcome , Whiz Wit! I agree with a lot of what you said, but I have to disagree with,
“The compelling fact in this is that it wasn’t a dope like me bringing these corrections and documents. ”
It does not sound to me like you are a dope at all.
February 7th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
SWW # 347 -- alternate view -
SGM hasn’t been in existence long enough to call themselves “grownups”, and they’ve re-invented themselves several times in the very few short decades they’ve been in existence. For an organization that prided themselves on being the ones that got church right, they sure seem to still be dragging themselves around by their elbows in the playpen of church history. Might I suggest that Josh, although he still has some growing up to do and still needs to unlearn some bad habits taught to him by his ecclesiastical parents, may have actually outgrown the “kids’ table” that is SGM and is looking for a spot at the grownups’ table. :)
February 7th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
I can think of some other things that haven’t done also.
Are they really thinking and acting like they will have to give an account to God one day for their actions. (SGM Pastors It says this right after the passage about submitting to your leaders in Hebrews 13).
Are they acting in humility as Christ modeled and Paul taught about doing?
Are they seeking to build God’s kingdom or are they building their own kingdom and their own ministry?
What about not hiding one’s sin but confessing and forsaking it?
February 7th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
ExClcer’sMom,
#346 -- :goodpost
February 7th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
Thanks ExClcer’s Mom,
Probably should have put the word “dope” in quotes but I also have done an awful lot of stupid things in my life to earn the title. But that would kind of be the point… because I was not top-notch SGM material, any concerns I brought to them would most likely have been dismissed or more easily fought against. I don’t know if pastors would immediately consider for me what LCF is saying we should consider with the leaders.
If a Pastor’s child had been one of the tragic stories of abuse cases I wonder how that would’ve been handled differently… or not?
February 7th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
@LCF: With all due respect, it sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself of something you don’t really believe as opposed to encouraging others. If you are in the pastor’s college, as some have suggested, I would encourage you to pray about leaving now. Barring a miracle, SGM corporate will be insolvent within a year and SGM churches are letting go of long-time existing pastors as opposed to taking new people on. It isn’t all about the recent scandal either. It’s likely that SGM, like most non-profits, was hit pretty hard by the crash of 2008 and simply couldn’t keep paying large numbers of pastors what they were accustomed to receiving during times of plenty. Likely there were only 3 people in the pastor’s college in a recent past year because SGM already had a surplus of pastors its churches couldn’t really afford to employ.
Al Mohler’s influence is probably what enabled the Mahaney’s to become Southern Baptist employees but most SBC members are reputedly not thrilled about Mohler’s decision to drag them through SGM’s mud, and they are unable/unlikely to welcome more SGM converts that are taking jobs away from people who have been Southern Baptists for longer than 10 minutes.
@Argo -- perhaps the issue now isn’t whether C.J. is qualified to be a pastor but whether he’s a pastor anyone would want to follow. A true shepherd takes care of his flock. By contrast, C.J. wouldn’t even attend church with the flock paying his salary much less protect its long-term interests. Let me switch analogies and say that the entire Mahaney clan not only jumped ship but took the ship down with them. They decided, by their actions, that if they couldn’t rule SGM no one else would either.
@Regarding the section of the documents compiled by Brent Detwiler regarding C.J.’s retirement age and his chosen heir:
I encourage everyone to look at the source of my quote and make up their own minds about the actions of the parties involved. However, I think that Brent later indicates that this exchange was an example of C.J.’s belief that he had the final say in all matters pertaining to SGM despite claiming he was part of a team. I have read The Documents several times and also see no evidence that Josh Harris knew he was C.J.’s heir to the entire SGM empire. It seems strange to think he was unaware of C.J.’s plans for him yet he seemed genuinely surprised that C.J. thought he qualified to head CLC at age 29 in 2004, too, even though C.J. said he brought Josh on board at age 21 with that role in mind at the “coronation ceremony” in 2004.
February 7th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
Being human, we ALL do stupid things-what’s important is if we learn from them or not. :wink: The daughter of one former pastor was molested..I dont know how it was handled, though, or if it was known at the time this person served as a pastor. Also, it was not a father molesting his child-SGM seems to believe a father has absolute power over his family..
February 7th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Fried Fish #354, etc.:
SGM alias whatever, began during what was known as the Charismatic Renewal or revival which began back in the late 60′s. It was a movement or revival orchestrated by the Holy Spirit that transcended denominational borders and swept the entire planet. Many leaders of established denominations became a central part of the movement which for a time remained outside aloof of any denominational control. The movement then began to infiltrate many denominations and it looked like the church (the real church) was going to become the supernatural church ofthe New Testament. Then the various denominational leaders stepped in and demanded that their part of the movement return to their roots. In effect the movement began again to be divided instead of one cohesive unit under the Holy Spirit. Some groups declined to return those denominational conditions and instead formed their own ad hoc fellowships. That’s when Larry Tomzak and company began to take on their new identity. The movement finally died out and in it’s place you have an expanded view of denominationalism. Later the charismatic gifts and freedom of worship that was a hallmark of the movement were were squeezed out and in their place was reborn the same canned evengelical liturgy that the church had suffered under since the time of Finney and Moody.
For a time the early SGMers (they weren’t called thatthen) andthe rest of the Charismatic movement “had it right” to a degree. Everything was centered on the person of Jesus Christ. Past denominational differences were put aside and it looked like the church would finally achieve spiritual oneness and Christ had prayed for in John 17. If you haven’t read that chapter you should. It’s profoundly beautiful.
Once the oneness was lost and the Holy Spirit was gone the demon of denominationaism began to do it’s work. SGM was not the only one to suffer what has happened. It happened all across the church. Many lives were wounded or destroyed, not because of the movement but because of the aftermath of being drawn away from the Holy Spirit and what He was doing in the church then.
We can’t go back, but we can repent and invite the Holy Spirit back into His church to lead us where He wants to lead us. The leadership of men sucks!
:beat
February 7th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
ExClcer’s Mom -
Every father and every leader in ministry will stand before Jesus one day. Fathers will never have absolute power despite what is foolishly implied by some ministries. If some men fear the ministry or lawyer more than God . . . well :(
February 7th, 2012 at 2:51 pm
ExClcer’s Mom,
Have you read “No Will of My Own, How Patriarchy Smothers Female Dignity & Personhood”? You would appreciate it.
February 7th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Whiz Wit asked, “If a Pastor’s child had been one of the tragic stories of abuse cases I wonder how that would’ve been handled differently… or not?”
Around the time of “Noel’s story” (slightly before), a child in a family very close to the pastor was molested by someone outside SGM. It was handled *completely* differently. Police were involved immediately and the victim testified against the molester in court. Was this because the victim was close to the pastor’s family….or was it because the perp was outside SGM? I would lean towards the latter, but I would guess it was probably a combination of the two. (I don’t want to give many details of this situation because it’s not my story to tell, and I want to respect the privacy of the survivor.)
It’s interesting to me, however, that the pastors did know how to respond correctly because they did so in this case.
February 7th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
fwiw…..My (non SGM) pastor told me something recently. He is a real people person and knows all the pastors in the area, and has a passing aquaintance with the local SGM pastor, plus he talks to reformed and charismatic guys from other areas. He’s had guys try to get him into SGM as he is a Calvinist, non cessationist baptist, but he won’t go near SGM and thought the info in the docs was disgraceful. We are not into the shepherding authority errors.
Anyway, he told me that if CJ starts a church people will flock to it, and that I have no idea how revered CJ is by people outside these evil blogs, and how much he is liked and admired out there in neoCalvinist land. Young guys- and older-all over the country are mesmerized by him and CJ will have no trouble attracting a following in a church and on a national level.
I know, I know, how can they not see it. I don’t get it either. But there is some powerful deception at work, like the Corinthians and the false apostles. At this point, unless God through AoR (or somehow) delivers a decisive blast that forces the end of CJ and the rest of the A’s, they may well carry on forever.
Ugh.
February 7th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
New post by Brent. Which church sent that email out?
February 7th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Fashionably Late,
Are you able to say which SGM church this happened in?
I am not trying to find out anyone’s identity, but it would be interesting to see if it was a different church than many of our molestation stories.
February 7th, 2012 at 3:46 pm
Thanks for the response to the question fashionabelylate. I am sad to find out my question wasn’t just rhetorical. I am glad they seemed to handle it right. Shame they were handled differently than so many others.
And Stunned…. I am assuming you are local to know the deliciousnesss of a Whiz Wit? Like nothing else God has every created.
February 7th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Heading to Jim’s tonight as I am having company coming from out of town. Which is your fav place?
PS. I’m a whiz wit, too.
February 7th, 2012 at 4:19 pm
I’ll just say that it was a church that handled other molestation issues very poorly.
February 7th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Well, Noel’s Story was Fairfax, so my guess is this was a case of another child in fairfax just the perp wasn’t a part of the church, so it was handled differently? You only have to forgive if it’s someone in your church. *totally facetious -- i don’t think calling the cops/holding the perp accountable shows a lack of forgiveness anymore than hiding it means forgiveness*
February 7th, 2012 at 4:46 pm
Fashionably -- Do I know you? I thought I knew all of the peeps from my past on here, but i dont remember your name being one of them. :-p :-)
February 7th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
There is an old saying along the lines of that for every rat you find there are so many that you don’t find. If members of the SGM are this lacking in integrity that they could do this, it wouldn’t put it past them that they are or have done other similar actions lacking in integrity that haven’t come to light.
After all:
- The group’s leader (Mahaney) blackmailed Larry Tomczak.
- Other SGM (PDI at the time) Board Members participated in this blackmailing.
- The SGM Board conspired to try and hide this sin even if reconciliation happened.
- When this sin finally came to light the SGM Board tried to trivialize it including saying it wasn’t blackmail or it was done “in anger” when they had even consulted a lawyer for a legal opinion.
- Decided this blackmailing didn’t disqualify Mahaney. They felt despite this action Mahaney was still above reproach.
- Framed the questions about Mahaney to limit answers to be more in line with a response they were wanting than seeking truth. This also included not asking if Mahaney followed the same standards he imposed on other SGM Pastors.
- Have imposed no discipline on the other board members that conspired to do this blackmailing.
I wonder what other actions the board has done like that are also lacking in integrity that haven’t come to light. It just makes them loose all credibility.
February 7th, 2012 at 4:57 pm
BR Clifton, #360,I bear witness to that!
AKS, #362, Thank you for that recommendation! I will check that book out!
Bridget, yes, every Father will stand, every pastor will stand, and every one of us will also stand! That is exactly why I told Gary Ricucci that I could not reconcile with my pedophile ex-husband-because I knew I would stand before god one day, and I have to live by my conscience. I think of that old saying we heard as kids, “If Jim Bob told you to jump off a bridge, would you?!?”, and I think how I can’t possibly stand before God one day, and say I disobeyed my own conscience, God Himself even speaking to me, because some pastor told me to?? There is NO WAY!!
February 7th, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Somewhere- That must be the Souderton Pa church, the one planted in 99 or so with Aron O. Not sure who is pastor now.
February 7th, 2012 at 5:57 pm
I just read the letter the church sent to its members on Brent’s blog.
While they might be oozing solidarity to SGM, it’s only words. What I find most encouraging is that they freely admit that they are giving nothing financially to SGM in 2012. Nada. Zip.
So now everyone knows that at least one church is not giving, and I think that will open the door for others to feel that’s a valid option. I have read here that other churches are forming committees to evaluate giving to SGM.
Actually, this is a brilliant strategy! I am not suggesting this church is using this strategy.
But let’s suppose a church wanted to stop supporting CJ and the current board. Boldly leaving SGM would likely wreak havoc and polarize a local church-some would be horrified, others ecstatic. So a better way would be to show undying devotion verbally in such a letter but to stop financially supporting SGM.
Then when it all comes tumbling down for FINANCIAL reasons, all churches just move forward without all the stress and hassle. They don’t have to leave SGM because it won’t exist anymore.
Brilliant.
February 7th, 2012 at 6:08 pm
HowDee YaAll,
Does C.J. just wanna show da present day American leaders of da body of Christ how to use a simple and low risk technique (the threat of blackmail) for manipulating the church for his own personal gain?!?
No Sweat, huh?
“Thirteen Years Of Looking Humble, Loaded For Bear” by C.J. Mahaney?
humm?
YaAll ask’in questions??? …Ain’t gonna matter a dang…
What?
C.J.’s got a ‘Big-Dog-Ticket-To-Ride’ (BDTTR). -grin-
ha!
♪♪♪…I think I’m gonna be sad,
I think it’s today, yeah.
The SGM pastor that’s driving the church to distraction
isn’t going away?
He’s got a ‘Big Dog Ticket To Ri-hide’,
He’s got a ‘Big Dog Ticket To Ri-hi-hide,
He’s got a ‘Big Dog Ticket To Ride’,
So he don’t care?
He said that partnering with Tomczak
Was bringing him down, yeah?
(“I’de rather die!” he said?)
He would never be free
As-long-as-Larry-was-around?
He’s got a ‘Big Dog Ticket To Ri-hide’,
He’s got a ‘Big Dog Ticket To Ri-hi-hide,
He’s got a ‘Big Dog Ticket To Ride’,
So he don’t care?
I don’t know why he’s ridin’ so high,
He ought to think twice,
He ought to do right by Jesus!
Before he gets to say’in goodbye,
He ought to think twice,
He ought to do right by Jesus…
♪♪♪ I think I’m gonna be sad,
I think it’s today, yeah.
The SGM pastor that’s driving us all mad, isn’t going away?…
My pastor don’t care, my pastor don’t care?!?
My, the pastors really don’t care?,
(Fading to black…)
My pastor don’t care, my pastor don’t care?!?
Big Dog Pastors, don’t care, my… they don’t really care?!?
Woof, Woof?!? Ah Wooooooo?!?
Oh! Yeah?
Sopy ♥,†
___
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY_6b4-N9Uo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
February 7th, 2012 at 6:13 pm
How can anyone who has made a pastoral confession to CJ be assured that CJ will not one day choose to use the information contained in the confession in a blackmail threat?
How can anyone be assured that there are currently no other blackmail threats hanging over saints heads?
How can anyone be assured that other blackmail threats were not carried out?
How can CJ be considered trustworthy?
I can’t imagine trusting that man in any capacity -- especially as a pastor, leader or teacher.
:spin :spin :spin :spin
February 7th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
Somewhere (365) and 5Years (374). The church in question is Sovereign Grace Church in Indiana, PA. Absolutely certain.
February 7th, 2012 at 6:43 pm
If anybody wants to comment on this, it will widen the circle of the discussion. Christianity Today has a wide readership:
http://www.outofur.com/archives/2012/02/smggate_case_cl.html#more
February 7th, 2012 at 6:52 pm
Moniker (377), Somewhere (365) and 5Years (374) it was the Indiana, PA church. They sent the letter out after their last member’s meeting.
February 7th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
B.R. #360 -- the history of the charismatic movement, and the Shepherding part of SGM’s roots, are not totally strange to me, I was reading New Wine magazine (Charles Simpson/Ern Baxter, et al.) back in the 70′s. Freedom of the Spirit and unity in the Spirit are wonderful things, I agree. But most of the existing denominational churches who became involved in the Charismatic movement invited the Spirit in without tossing centuries of proven polity and established theology out the window… whether that was what ultimately led to the wane of much of the ecumenism in the Charismatic movement (as people started once again to prioritize what divided rather than united them), I don’t know. But the Holy Spirit didn’t just show up in the 60′s, and He didn’t just go away in the 80′s/90′s. I’ve been involved with several churches through the years, both denominational and non, both continuationist and cessasionist. Regardless of a church’s stand on the gifts of the Spirit, the most damaging thing I’ve seen has ALWAYS been the loss of a real dependency on God and the thought that we can have it all figured out and run things in our own strength and wisdom and material resources. All right, enough soapbox for me…
February 7th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
LCF wrote:
“The other day someone sent me an email with this statement, “At some point you have to trust that the people involved truly sought the Lord through this.” BTW, that statement didn’t come from a SGM loyalist.” :scratch :scratch
LCF fan, dude are you for real? Do you read the posts here? Do you really believe what you wrote? I’m gonna tell you something straight up, you are talking out of your backside… I wonder who you are, I use my real name, what’s yours? I did a year and a half in SGM so I’m not buying your happy talk. Sorry to sound harsh, but real damage has been done to real people.
5 years in PDI said:
“Anyway, he told me that if CJ starts a church people will flock to it, and that I have no idea how revered CJ is by people outside these evil blogs”, sadly sister, from my own experience I can affirm that you are spot on. SGM has done a good job fooling the outside world, they have fooled a lot of our brethren in the reformed community. I pray that the AOR report helps those outside SGM see the damage these men have done…
February 7th, 2012 at 8:01 pm
Sue Anne,
You said “Al Mohler’s influence is probably what enabled the Mahaney’s to become Southern Baptist employees but most SBC members are reputedly not thrilled about Mohler’s decision to drag them through SGM’s mud, and they are unable/unlikely to welcome more SGM converts that are taking jobs away from people who have been Southern Baptists for longer than 10 minutes.”
I doubt the average SBC member of a SBC church has ever even heard of SGM or Mahaney. Has anyone even established that a Mahaney relative even took away a job from an SBC member? Or was it more of a work/study job where tuition is free and a stipend paid? All colleges do that.
February 7th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
For those interested, Covenant Fellowship’s last week’s sermon re: charitable judgments is available. A couple of points between 1:10 -- 4:00: http://www.covfel.org/media_player.asp?messageID=113107
-- AoR report is being released in “a couple of months” (by which, I hope he meant March and therefore prior to T4G)
-- They’re going to be doing an evaluation of local leadership; if I remember correctly, he says “past and present.” This, he indicated, is a “category” that will be discussed in an upcoming family meeting.
-- This sermon is the first of a month-long series (which, if I understood it) is preparation for the upcoming local evaluation, family meeting, etc. It is meant to review the “Christian virtues” that are involved in situations of possible disunity: charitable judgment, godly speech, etc.
February 7th, 2012 at 9:08 pm
Again, for those who are interested, T4G released a set of new videos regarding panel discussions: http://t4g.org/resources/video/.
February 7th, 2012 at 9:13 pm
The letter was written by Mark Altrogge and his son and another pastor. This from a man who KNEW that he didn’t believe in Reformed Theology but instead succumbed to the pressure and man pleasing ways of the SGM leaders.
Mark, you KNEW better! You KNOW you did!
Now a letter basically from you telling the Lord’s flock in Indiana, PA to believe in the good intensions of a bunch of prideful men who ” couldn’t get piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel”.
Shame !!!
February 7th, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Somewhereintime -- I was a member of the Indiana church for 15 years. I have ALWAYS respected Mark -- as do many, many others. I believe he is trying to create change from within -- as best as he can. I left the church mainly as a result of the overall effects of what is happening at SGM at the board/main leadership level. I am struggling not to take offense at you comment. You don’t know Mark -- as best as I can tell, nor do you attend or have ever attended SG Indiana. Your response is unsually strong and heavy handed. Mark may not have done everyting perfectly, but he is FAAAAARRR from a CJ or Dave H. To say that you know that he “knew better” is ridiculous. How do you know what he knew??? Were you in his head?? I was around when Mark struggled with the shift to Calvinism. I would argue that he didn’t “succumb” but rather accepted and embraced the theology -- BIG difference. He is trying to the best of his ability navigate the church through this incredibly difficult time. Is he doing this perfectly -- perhaps not. Does any one of us do everything perfectly? NO. I would LOVE to see a stronger stance -- from ALL of the churches but it seems as if everyone is holding their breath for the AOR report. Let’s see what hits the fan then -- THEN say your peace.
February 7th, 2012 at 9:49 pm
Dawn, I understand your feelings, really..Didn’t Mark originate in Maryland? His name is so familiar to me…The truth is, none of us REALLY know another’s heart-not one of us..we can only know our own heart, and look at another’s actions..I don’t know who Somewhereintime is, but do you? Do you know if he may know Mark even more intimately than you? That knowledge is as elusive as knowing another’s heart, I think. Therefore, I think it would be prudent and wise to not take another’s offense here, rather listen, and try to understand all who speak..I think there is still much that none of us even know yet, and God is the final judge. It seems to me this forum is for healing, bringing information to the surface, and, sometimes, “calling another out”..I dont know you, or Somewhereintime, and do not even know Mark personally..I am just sayiong it sounds like you are “making excuses” as much as some others..I think this is a time and a place to speak up, no longer waiting..We keep saying, “Wait until..”..For some, “until” may be too late..each one of us needs to prayerfully seek God Himself for what to do-not seeking CJ, not even AofR..get before God and ask HIM..
February 7th, 2012 at 9:51 pm
The AoR report is a merely a biding of time, nothing more. If people haven’t been persuaded to leave SGM by now, I do not believe they will even when the AoR report comes out. If the obvious bias, conflict of interest, hypocrisy, and the patronization of these “letters to the congregations” does not prove that SGM has no intention of any real change…[shrug], please, someone tell me what will? I think the AoR report is just a way people can put off doing what they already know they should do because it constitutes a VERY difficult decision (I know from experience). Just my opinion, though. Could be wrong.
Also, in my opinion, the AoR report is moot already. The 3 panel Banana Republic “review” was the final word from the SGM leadership. The AoR report will look nice underneath the cat box, but that’s about as how far it will be considered.
Can you tell I’m not feeling overly optimistic tonight?
February 7th, 2012 at 9:59 pm
Argo #389-I too believe that when the AoR report is released, nobody will leave who hasn’t already. I just think it will be more of wait and see, and more of wait and see, etc. Also, sgm people have been drinking the kool aid too much, and will “trust” their pastors.
February 7th, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Argo, I agree..The writing has been on the wall for a long time..A of R will be VERY diplomatic in whatever they say..many will still not “hear”..What we can be optimistic about is that God still wins..we all have our choices to make-this is our “proving grounds”..So, when the present looks bleak, just look a little further out.. :wink:
February 7th, 2012 at 10:02 pm
5Years in #364 --
He may be popular but I don’t believe he has the work ethic to make a new church run. If he brings in the three SiLs and the other relatives he might get away with it.
But the work required of a new start up is taxing. Even when you have a big name and can get SGM money to start it! I have a couple of standing bets on this one and I think I will add you to the list. A new church is just too much work for an old man accustomed to lots or praise and little hard effort. (You heard it here first!)
February 7th, 2012 at 10:04 pm
ExClCer -- Mark was always in Indiana. Thank you for your comment. I was/am not making excuses -- believe me. I was attempting to bring balance. I have absolutely zero respect for CJ, Dave and the rest of the board. I personally have been deeply wounded and have posted my story here before under the name of Gadget. Not every SGM pastor is corrupt and inept, though. My sufferings were mainly a result of the systemic problems/teachings and at the hands of other members. I think it is wisdom to try to be as objective as possible. Thaat’s all I’m trying to get across.
February 7th, 2012 at 10:07 pm
I do also agree with what 5years said about what her pastor said. I do believe that people will continue to follow CJ. It’s getting to the point where all you can do is pray. Also, what annoys me the most is when people say sgm is growing, but so is the mormon church, and also more people are not going to church.
February 7th, 2012 at 10:11 pm
I stand corrected, Dawn. I do not know Mark personally, or otherwise..does he write music, perhaps? His name is SO familiar to me! I agree it is important to look, maybe not objectively, but through God’s eyes..I think I remember reading some from gadget..I will go back to refresh my memory!
February 7th, 2012 at 10:14 pm
Mark is one of the main songwriters for SGM. He wrote “I Stand in Awe”, “I’m Forever Grateful”, “As Long As I Have Breath”, etc.
February 7th, 2012 at 10:21 pm
I have not been a part of SGM’s music since the late 80′s, but that is no doubt where I saw his name all the time..His music is definitely inspiring!
Lynn, I think the growth of SGM, just like anything else in this world is not necessarily relevant to “God’s blessing”..We are not seeking to go by a crowd, but by our heart, being connected to God..As long as there is “opposition”, it is important to share information so that he who has ears to hear can hear..I dont think this will be over for a long time..
February 7th, 2012 at 10:21 pm
Exclcersmom,
You said at #273,”That is exactly why I told Gary Ricucci that I could not reconcile with my pedophile ex-husband-because I knew I would stand before god one day, and I have to live by my conscience. I think of that old saying we heard as kids, “If Jim Bob told you to jump off a bridge, would you?!?”, and I think how I can’t possibly stand before God one day, and say I disobeyed my own conscience, God Himself even speaking to me, because some pastor told me to?? There is NO WAY!!”
I agree with you. I’m so glad you stood up for God! I really don’t think the sgm pastors really understand Romans 13. In Romans 13 it talks about God having a government before you. That would be laws. It is against the law to sexually abuse a child. I know sgm wants to protect the church, but they can still so that. All they need to do is call the police and say something was brought to their attention and ask them to investigate it. Nobody would know unless they went and told someone. I understand, the next step would be to let the church know, but the police know how to handle these issues and the sgm pastors are not trained to handle it, so they need to let the police investigate and prohibit the perp from church until the investigation is complete. Also, I’m bit of a news junkie and I read the news and watch the news. I like to be informed of what is going on locally and nationally. Anyway, I read an article about the Tebow guy who does the Tebowing praying thing during games, and kids were suspended for doing it and making everyone late for class. Anyway, Tebow thanked them for showing support, but said if you’re school tells you not to do something, you need to listen because God has placed them in authority over you or something along those lines. Anyway, exclcermom, you have helped me in many ways and for that I thank you.
February 7th, 2012 at 10:30 pm
Dawn,
No matter what you believe of Mark, the VAST MAJORITY of SGM pastors fell to the pressure of Mahaney and Harvey. I’m sure Mark is a nice guy, however he and the rest fell pressure to the fear of man. Now he is sending out a letter saying that the scam artists went through and just and thorough process and all is well! Good heart or not, it’s not a perceptive heart that looks past the EXTENSIVE list of deep sins that Altrogge is now saying is good and fine!
With regards to creating change from within, how do you think he is doing that with this letter??? Sounds like a yes man to me! He even was the first of all 100 pastors to send out a letter … He got in line FIRST!
Sorry Dawn, I hate to burst your bubble, but he is one of them…
February 7th, 2012 at 10:31 pm
“I just think it will be more of wait and see, and more of wait and see, etc”
-Lynn
Yep…I totally agree with you there. After the AoR report fizzles out like one of those “caterpillars” you buy at the fireworks stand, and amounts to the same pile of ash, the next wait-and-see excuse will be the polity “changes”, and the layperson-to-elder grievance “processes”, and the Board “restructuring”, and the “defining of congregational elders” and on and on. There will always be that carrot tied to the string in front of our noses. We’ll walk like good little horses from horizon to horizon, the carrot always being so close but never arriving. Oh, we’ll stop along the way to still tithe of course. We are nothing if not faithful, hoping, and believing-the-best horses.