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Corporate Offices Of Sovereign Grace Ministries To Move To Kentucky?Word on the street seems to be that the new church C.J. Mahaney is planting will be located in Kentucky. Sovereign Grace Ministries’ offices are also going to be moved to Kentucky, from their current location in the Covenant Life Church building in Gaithersburg, Maryland. Anyone want to ask his or her pastor to confirm or deny?  Click here to see all 422 comments - (Comments are closed)
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February 28th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
I just heard from someone who said that he has already asked his pastor, and the pastor did confirm this development as true.
I’m still shaking my head over it, though.
If CJ’s departure from Maryland is such that the SGM corporate offices cannot function without his leadership nearby, to the point where offices have to be relocated and employees uprooted, then there must be very little distinction between the person of CJ Mahaney and the organization of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
All that chatter from people who try to say that their SGM churches are different and not that connected to CJ’s problems -- I think this development provides yet another reason (the most dramatic one yet) to question why your (supposedly) non-CJ-affected church would want to remain controlled by an organization so tied to CJ that it has to move nearly 600 miles across state lines just because CJ moves.
February 28th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
Yeah…pretty ridiculous…
But…the good part is that with SGM out of the way, this will make things easy for CLC to leave SGM.
I’m still holding out hope….and in a couple generations, CLC will be just like any other mainstream church.
Sidney
February 28th, 2012 at 12:55 pm
To all my very close SGM employee friends.
Don’t go.
Businessmen of CLC -- please hire these fine people.
February 28th, 2012 at 1:10 pm
@Kris
I think it the move has just as much to do with CJ moving as it does with the obvious differences of opinion between CLC and SGM. Not that that makes it better, it just spreads out the ridiculousness of it over two reasons instead of just one.
February 28th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
So is this to move by SB Seminary in Louisville?
February 28th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
So does the PC, Recording Studio, and all those nice people and their families need to move with CJ? I’m not talking about the apostles, but the rest of the SGM staff who have been a part if CLC
just as long or longer than they have been a part of SGM. It’s a lot to put people through just because CJ got some egg on his face, and wants to move the clubhouse to a new spot.
February 28th, 2012 at 1:21 pm
Kris -
My guess is that not all SGM pastors are being made aware if such moves.
I don’t know that all SGM pastors are aware that SGM has finalizes the membership agreement between SGM and its associated churches either. But according ti the SGM article posted over on Refuge, some churches are in agreement with this membership agreement. Seems like whole churches are being marginalized now.
February 28th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Can someone explain to me why SGM or any of its emoloyees need to be in KY? CJ will not be the president and he has declined being a board member as has Purswell and Harvey.
From the last thread -- Dever and 9Marks are hypocrits and seem to want like-minded men around them.
February 28th, 2012 at 1:41 pm
OK so still no big surprises :wink:
SO who is willing to speculate that with the move to KY will bring with it a name change ?
LOL
February 28th, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Let me guess… Somewhere near Louisville, right?
February 28th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
kaz #9 name change….slm -- sovereign law ministries?
February 28th, 2012 at 2:18 pm
this move is a calculated one to align with the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary to accredited the Pastor’s college. rumor is that Jeff Pursewell may go on staff at SBTS. and it is specifically Louisville, Ky.
February 28th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
It seems pretty obvious what is going on here. CJ is simply trying to run from the problem instead of facing it directly and dealing with it biblically. He evidently thinks that by moving to KY that the problessms will go away. Unfortunately he’s wrong on that. God will see to it that the very problem he’s running from will be there waiting for him when he gets to wherever he’s going.
God leves him enough to want him to be cleansed of all this. If CJ is not willing to do this on his own, then God will take him to the woodshed for a “fatherly cleansing”. Be assurred that God does have a woodshed to which he takes unruly children for “corrective action”.
:beat
February 28th, 2012 at 2:28 pm
Let’s start watching the MRIS listings to see if people start putting their homes on the market. Also, churches need to pull out/reduce their support now so they don’t have to fund large relocation packages for SGM staff. This is coming mark my words.
February 28th, 2012 at 2:28 pm
ALL of this is happening because of one man’s sin and his refusal to acknowledge it. Brent exposing it was not the problem. It was CJ’s behavior, unchecked over the years of foolish man exalting, that has caused all this chaos and upheaval and pain.
It actually scares me a little to think the whole T4G thing is just to line peoples pockets.
That 50K personal donation of CJ years ago to SBC just sticks out to me like a bad sore thumb, people.
February 28th, 2012 at 2:29 pm
No idea if this is related or coincidental, but Nicole and Steve Whitacre (CJ and Carolyn’s oldest daughter and son-in-law) just moved to Louisville, KY. Steve will be attending Southern Baptist Theological Seminary…supposedly prior to planting a church. (This was posted on the GirlTalk blog a few months ago).
February 28th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Kate,
That’s what I remember!!! You’re right…Whiteacres.
Sidney
February 28th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
@Kate #14 -- I believe the other two SILS are also attending SBTS, albeit remotely.
February 28th, 2012 at 2:45 pm
As trainwrecks go, this one isn’t even interesting or entertaining. Just a big, long, slow grind down to utterly awful.
What a waste of time, talent and resources CJ turned out to be.
It’s a matter of time before SGM dissolves.
February 28th, 2012 at 2:47 pm
Well a few things come to my mind. (1) CLC and SGM are splitting and SGM has no choice but relocate, (2) CJ, though technically not in charge by then, can still oversee SGM if they go with him right? In an “unofficial” capacity of course!
February 28th, 2012 at 2:47 pm
SamMcGee…you are correct and both also finishing up an internship at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. One is finalizing the sale of their home and the other does not own a home (lived with the Mahaney’s).
February 28th, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Hey…if you haven’t seen it…take a look at the new SGM Board members that has been posted over at SGM Refuge :scratch :beat :bang :barf: :evil: :spin
February 28th, 2012 at 2:54 pm
Does anyone know if John MacArthur or John Piper ever weighed in on what C.J. Mahaney has done and his reinstatement? Someone asked about this on another blog.
February 28th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Bridget said, “Can someone explain to me why SGM or any of its emoloyees need to be in KY? CJ will not be the president and he has declined being a board member as has Purswell and Harvey.”
Bridget, do you mean of the SGM board or another board?
February 28th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Also, check out CJ’s post on the SGM website Blog. He looks to be very much in control of the Next Conference and is a speaker himself. Of course, Josh Harris the real founder of Next/New Attitude is not on the list.
February 28th, 2012 at 2:57 pm
Speaking of SBC I read that they were considering maybe dropping the “Southern” and just being “Baptist”
February 28th, 2012 at 3:03 pm
The more I think about this, the more amazing it is. Why is anyone even bothering with the silly charade of pretending that SGM-the-organization has some sort of authority and power over CJ? If this move comes to pass, doesn’t that basically prove who’s in the driver’s seat…and whose will and whims matter most…and who answers to whom?
Again, all the people who have clung to the belief that your local SGM church is able to keep its distance from CJ and his woes -- think about it. The SGM organization is so enmeshed with CJ, and CJ is such a controlling force over the SGM organization, that the the man and the corporate entity cannot be geographically separated. WHY would any church that does not share and support CJ’s issues with unchecked authority want to continue to be part of an organization that is that indistinguishable from one particular man?
February 28th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
So is anyone thinking, “Poor Mohler. After what CJ has done to so many, Al needs to watch his back”?
February 28th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Just now I received an email from someone who reminded me of the fact that in his address at the last Pastors’ Conference, CJ had indicated that he believed he was not gifted to be president of SGM but was instead more gifted as a pastor. The implication seemed to be that it was his intention to step down from the SGM presidency, regardless of what the panels/AOR would find.
So, did CJ not actually mean what he said in that speech last November? Is he actually gifted to lead the SGM organization? Here are CJ’s own words from the November 2011 Pastors’ Conference:
So, OK -- if CJ meant what he said in the first portion of this segment of his speech, where he talks about how he has come to realize that he is “not gifted to lead the movement,” then why would CJ’s move to Kentucky necessitate the move of SGM’s corporate offices?
February 28th, 2012 at 3:22 pm
The problem of Gary --
I think the most emotional and volatile issue at CLC has been around that of Gary.
Thousands of members have read Ex-CLCer’s mom’s account of her husband’s molestation of her daughter, the counsel she received from pastors, the jail, the poverty, the breakdown, losing her nine children to the state. It is a horrible situation and she has kept it at the forefront of these dialogues day after day, inflaming many with anger towards Gary and John. Angry CLC members have harassed their children and forced Gary to leave in disgrace.
The problem is, and this is why so many people support the gossip and slander teaching, Gary has absolutely no way to defend himself. The only way he can explain the terrible events that transpired is to tell the rest of the story and reveal confidential details regarding exCLCer’s Mom and her children, details she may have never even have told her own children. He can’t respond to her daughter’s inquiries. And he certainly can’t here.
From reading here, it sounds like the pastors were entangled in a terrible family situation involving a molester, poverty, an emotionally devastated mother who lost her 9 children and then continued to have four more in what might be considered “baby hoarding”. It was a bad situation or a bad situation. There was no good outcome.
Covenant Lifers -- there is more to this story and Gary has chosen to leave in disgrace than reveal those confidential details to defend himself.
There are reasons people are conflicted. Gary was there during their sickness and surgeries and hospital stays and the death of their mother or their child. People have seen Gary involve the police immediately when someone is sexually victimized. Gary has counseled and prayed faithfully for decades. And, the thousands of stories weigh heavily against the handful of situations on the blogs that went badly. That’s not saying they weren’t bad, it’s just saying there’s a big picture and we can’t see it here.
Members -- there’s a lot you don’t know. Leave Gary and Betsy and their children alone. They can’t defend themselves.
Gary -- come back to CLC. Bring Betsy and the kids with you. Serve out your days here. These people love you.
ExCLCer -- come back, too. It’s clear CLC has heard your cries and has made dramatic changes under new leadership in response to voices like yours. The people clearly love you, too and many are willing to give up relationships they had for decades in your defense.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:23 pm
It absolutely amazea me what people will do to be loyal to C.J. All of these machinations are designed for his and his family’s benefit alone. I think Kris is correct in pointing out that C.J. intends to control SGM without an official postion and the accountabiltiy that brings. However, C.J.’s motives are now as obvious to people as they have been to God all along. SGM will become irrelevant in a few years, and that is probably a good thing.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:25 pm
New SGM name…
“Great Commission SGMers”
February 28th, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Of course Cj is moving out of state. He wants to get out a.s.a.p. so he can start his new program! More mediation would just slow things down. So would CLC pastors, so why not move to Solid Rock for a short time before the big move. He don’t need no stinkin’ permission…
Here is how it will go…
He moves to Louisville and into a predominantly white upper middle class neighborhood like Polo Fields, Middleton, Jeffersontown, Houston Acres or even Indian Springs or Anchorage. You can imagine how much cheaper homes are down there. CJ will be able to get an even larger house than he has now and at a better price! He will also need this type of neighborhood to plant his church because SGM churches work best in up-scale areas that already have a plethora of existing churches for SGM to siphon off members from in the early stages.
There are hundreds of churches down there and the best option would be to buy out an existing church. I am certain that SGM will be more than happy to give CJ a generous church planting budget. This plant will, after all, put Kentucky onto the official SGM map and make SGM that much more famous for having churches in soooo many states!
After a year or two the church will be built up to a size that will require little work from CJ so he will be free to roam about the country. After all, Dayton will be just 150 miles away, the same distance from where he lives now to the disintegrating church down in Midlothian, just outside Richmond, Va. Or the same distance from CLC to the center for Kool-aid studies located at CFC, just outside Philly. CJ’s new church will have a generous population of planters who willingly and enthusiastically came down from Gaithersburg to be with THE ONE. There will also be a few coming down from Dayton and perhaps even some from Knoxville will shift over to the new Ky church. Plus the influx of people from all over SGM-dom that would love to get in close and personal with the Ceej. And throw in all the people outside of SGM that would love to sit at the feet of the great founder of SGM and T4G lecturer and you can see a substantial early church starting, almost from the get go.
Once this new church is up and running, CJ will have little to do other than be the figure head. He can fly all over to a multitude of conferences and command performances because his three sons in law will be the asst pastors there and they will shoulder most of the responsibilities, doing the bulk of the work that actually gets done. CJ hasn’t had dirty hand in years but all three SiLs have great reputations for hard work. At least two of them will have seminary degrees by that time, too. I don’t know if they would all like to live in CJ’s house or if CJ could find a house big enough, but certainly the clan could all be in the same neighborhood, AND CJ bought at least one SiL a house before so with the cheap home prices down in Ky he can probably buy each of them their own house within walking distance of his house AND the church, if he wishes. (Maybe SGM will pay the SiLs to be church planters, too.)
So after this is all settled then it is time for SGM to move down as well. It will take at least that long for Harvey to write new polity and hand select his favorites to be on the new SGM Board. The new members are already listed…three Harvey Clones, three SGM Kool-aid drinkers, one refugee from a sinking ship, and two untainted pastors will make up the rubber stamp for the SGM support team for CJ and then the eventual SGM move south.
SGM will be persona non grata there at CLC. What with SGM’s lackluster performance with the panels, and with the excoriating report from AoR that will be coming out in late March, and the chilly relationship between SGM/Harvey and CLC, and since the few people that still work for SGM will have left (either on their own accord or because the drop in giving to SGM has not provided enough money to keep them employed), there won’t be much reason to stay in Gaithersburg as the home base for SGM. SGM will sell their portion of the condo arrangement with CLC back to CLC (hopefully at fire sale prices) and move the entire organization down to Louisville.
With the difference in property prices, SGM will be able to purchase a nice facility right next to CJ’s new church or perhaps they will be able to BUILD a new facility ONTO CJ’s new church! At any rate, SGM will be co-located just down the street from Al Mohler’s Seminary.
This is real reason for moving to Louisville. With big wigs like CJ and Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell, they can do lecturing at the Seminary to bolster their global standing and bring in a few more bucks. They won’t really need more money because the SGM salary they had in Gaithersburg that the new, Harvey picked SGM board will continue to pay, will be waaaay more than enough to cover the cost of living in Louisville! They will be on easy street. The Seminary lecturing will be mostly for their own pride, their worldly standing amongst other reformed big dogs and their reputation with other SGM sympathizers and conference attenders. This is, after all, about power, influence and money! CJ’s substantial donations to Mohler are now paying off. The only SGM guy to be left out of the perfect plan will be John Loftness. He will have his hands full preaching Charitable Judgments and looking for satan, to protect CJ’s move. Harvey will continue to hole-up in CFC. He will need to stay around and operate the string that attach to the new puppets he put on the board. Does the term “Useful Idiots” ring a bell?
The whole thing will come together pretty quickly and fairly easily because CJ has been there and done that before. He has the past experience with CLC and he knows what the model organization should look like so it is full steam ahead. And with plenty of great people to do the work, man the equipment and play the roles of adoring crowds at the conference and speaking engagements, CJ and Bob and the whole Mahaney Clan should be sitting pretty and back on top of their world in a little more than three years!
Don’t forget you heard it here first!
February 28th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
If the information is correct and SGM will move to Louisville with CJ, I think all may be in for a surprise. Louisville is home to many SBC churches. Traditionally they have not be elder led but are instead congregationally led. Accountability of the leadership is high. Autonomy of the local church is paramount. Because of SBTS and the PCA seminary, pastors are a dime a dozen; congregations seldom retain a pastor for many years. There is always new talent (and hopefully called servant leaders) who are eager to pastor churches in the area. It doesn’t take much for a pastor to be asked to leave a local church. This is something to which CJ and SILs are not accustomed. They may be in-and-out of a job rather quickly.
There is quite a bit of opposition within the Baptist Convention (family of churches -- I just had to say it!) to Al Mohler’s leadership. Many find him arrogant. However, many SBC churches are struggling to maintain membership. They struggle to reach unbelievers. They struggle with change. The T4G group certainly is appealing as change. CJ and SGM may also be appealing. I just don’t believe many folks in KY would agree to giving up all congregational authority and submit fully to the authoritarian polity of SGM.
Lastly, I too feel terrible for the staff of SGM. I hope for them that they choose not to uproot to follow CJ. Perhaps the current SGM offices can be turned into a counseling center for SGM detox.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:30 pm
There is nothing that prevents Gary from contacting exCLCer and talking with her about HIS behavior, seperate from her mother or anyone else. (As we all know, this is God’s mandate.) Gary’s shame is from his own behavior and no one else’s.
And baby hoarding? Are you serious? The families I know who had nearly a dozen children were held up as examples at SGM, not called names like hoarders.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:35 pm
PS. I should have added that having your own church members harrass or reject you is HORRIBLE. I really feel sorry for his kids.
And I honestly would never want to be a part of a church where people felt free to pick on children. That is beyond twisted.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:39 pm
Has CJ ever read the book Jonah?
:scratch
February 28th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
@yentl #37 Angry CLC members have harassed their children and forced Gary to leave in disgrace.
Can you substantiate that claim? Who was harassed? How and by whom?
Gary did not leave in disgrace. My understanding is that he was practically begged to stay.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Stunned @ 24 -
I was referring to the SGM Board. The details if this statement are over at the Refuge blog.
I’m not sure that SGM is moving. It’s more likely that several prominent SGM leaders will go to SBC as has already begun to happen with CJ’s SIL.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
@Stunned #35 You wrote: “PS. I should have added that having your own church members harrass or reject you is HORRIBLE. I really feel sorry for his kids. And I honestly would never want to be a part of a church where people felt free to pick on children. That is beyond twisted.”
A couple of things on this. I would like to hear the specifics about the harassment of Gary’s kids before I believe it. And, second, just so everyone knows, his kids are all adults or very close to it.
February 28th, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Kaz
Maybe it will be
Mahaney Ministries
Sovreign Graceless Ministries
World’s Most Wonderful Ministries
Sovreign Grace Ministries Ressurected
All of Me and None for You Ministries
February 28th, 2012 at 3:58 pm
yentl
So now are you going to try and say that ExClCers Mom’s behavior is why John Loftness and Gary Ricucci didn’t have CLC Members take (even temporarily) ExCLCer’s Mom’s children in including ExCLCer? Is that why John Loftness left her at a state institution rather than having one of the many families in CLC take this child in?
I would find this hard to believe.
I am sure Gary left due to “moma” not being happy with “moma” being Gary’s wife who is also C.J.’s sister.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:06 pm
Sam McGee, I appreciate you commenting on my post. I am NOT accusing anyone in CLC of harrassing another’s children, adult or little. I was questioning why, if yentl or (anyone else) believes that Gary or his children were victim’s of outrageously heniously unjustified behavior, why would yentl or anyone else who believes such charges to be true, still be a part of that body? Why aren’t they standing up in the church itself and addressing this directly? Have they gone to each and every person who harrassed these kids (grown or not) and called each person, personally to repent of their sin? Called them to go to Gary’s children, one by one, to repent of what they have done? If not, what does it say about the people who believe such horrible things were done? What does it say about CLC? Or what does it even say for Gary for running if that is truly the case. He had many options and we can not claim he was a victim of exCLCer, her mom, or anyone else.
I may go visit people in hospitals, but that doesn’t mean that I still may not have done something henious enough to remove me from being a pastor. Nor does it mean that once the truth comes out and I still don’t want to get right with my victim, I should receive pity because people are finally seeing me for what I did wrong.
Scripture states we go to the person personally. If they have refused to repent, then it is taken to the church. Go, do that first if you or anyone knows sin done against Gary and his kids. Give them a chance to repent and be right with God.
If you (generaly you, not you at all, Sam) haven’t done so, yet know of specific sin done, you need to look in the mirror and ask why you haven’t followed this mandate of scripture. Gary and his family deserve this care, too.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:10 pm
Sam, opps, I should have said that the you was a general you and not aimed at you throughout my entire post. I genuinely hope I didn’t cause any misunderstanding.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:15 pm
yentl said:
If what you said is true about there being more to the story and “confidential details” and Gary doesn’t publicly want to share then what might be good is for Gary Ricucci and John Loftness to meet with ExCLCer and share these details with ExCLCer giving their perspective on what happened. Hasn’t ExCLCer appealed yearly to John Loftness to give some type of answer for what was done?
With regard to one of the Ricucci children being “harassed” I imagine it has more to do with one of the kids defending C.J. Mahaney vs. ExCLCers story. Isn’t the Riccuci child now an adult in age?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:25 pm
Protestant Dame -- Can you elaborate on your comment about the upcoming CFC family meeting from the last thread? Will church-specific issues be discussed, or is it all CJ/Louisville/Dave leaving the board? I’m guessing,if church-specific issues, 1. divisive/gossipers/slanderers/blog readers excommunicated since that seems to be Jared’s pet peeve right now, or 2. pastors leaving. I’m sincerely hoping and praying it is nothing to do with child abuse like at some of the other churches.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
Sam et al
I am aware of nothing but affirmative comments and attitudes toward Rucucci family members, in particular. They seem to have a lot of love left at CLC. Check out all the loving FB messages flowing out today from CLC members toward both the Ricuccis and the Mahaneys. I haven’t heard one negative word about Carolyn, either.
So, to me the complaints alluded to seem pretty bogus. Anyway, the persons of interest are all adults so, if they have received any form of negativity, they are old enough to handle it like I have handled the snubs we have received from various leaders over the years, by forgiveness, not avoidance.
What is needed at this point in history, are apologies from all of the current and past leaders for grossly miss-handled cases.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Anyone else find it ironic that both Larry and CJ will be living in the same state?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Larry is living in KY now?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Larry’s web page says he is living in the Nashville, Tenn area
February 28th, 2012 at 4:45 pm
yentl # 30
Never, in a million years. I’d rather die…..”and religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom”
(not likely, but if so, as it should be, and by the same token, what is John L waiting for)
DISGRACE -- to lose favor or standing; to be a source of shame
Not my doing, and IMO not nearly as honorable as
REPENTANCE: To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one’s mind regarding it; To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one’s actions
Proverbs (their own rule book) says: “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.” Apparently there is a choice to be had.
No one can disgrace you but yourself. I asked for repentance, but I suppose I will settle for watching the inevitable disgrace of those too self righteous to face what they have done.
If his family members are affected by his disgrace, then it is HIS OWN doing.
For you to claim he has no way of defending himself just shows how oblivious you are. To imply there is a “rest of the story” is to imply you yourself are privy to some kind of justifying information regarding my family’s situation that if known would defend Gary and Johns actions. While most rational people would be hard put to come up with any imaginable extrenuating circumstances that would make Gary and Johns actions justifiable, if that were really the case then whatever the explanation was, was no confidential secret that couldnt be used to defend oneself, since clearly it was used for that purpose by way of passing it along to you. Why you, but no one else? Did you consider that maybe its becase whatever information you were told “in confidence” is not true? Or consider the possibility that the “information” would not effectively coerce most people into thinking it changes the rightness/wrongness of their actions as effectively as it did you?
Just for the record, there are no transgressions committed by my mother that would justify Gary and Johns actions. She is not claiming a moral superiority and a status of all encompassing capable advisory leadership requiring unquestionable obedience. Her faults, whatever they are, do not mitigate theirs. I think calling her a “baby hoarder” (a status of godliness IN the church, but suddenly a perjorative now?) says less about her, and more about YOUR personal feelings on the matter -- maybe youre a participant or too close to one in the events as they unfolded.
While the human ego side of me might be a little tittilated at the idea that my voice holds so much power as to force the disgraceful withdrawl of a man I see as a perpetrator of injustices, I would be deluding myself to believe that. The truth itself is what holds real power, and I am committed to it through and through. I can say the same for the pastors. In all likelihood, his family (Garys wife being CJ’s sister), being unhappy with the reduction of nepotistic favoritism, has decided to keep it moving before the stratification of status falls apart around them.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
oops, correction: “I can say the same for the pastors.” should have read “I CAN’T say the same for the pastors.”
February 28th, 2012 at 5:03 pm
As Fruit Filled said--
Amen and amen.
No matter what Dr. Mohler would like to believe, no matter what C.J. Mahaney may think, Southern Baptist churches are congregational. They hold firmly to the priesthood of the believer. For the most part they are not Calvinists.
I still say--and believe, and hope, and pray!!--that there is no way, no way in this world or another, that SGM can take over the SBC. Or most SBC churches individually.
Doesn’t mean I’m thrilled to think of SGM moving to Kentucky. I have family there.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:04 pm
51- ExCLCer -- I am so sorry for using the expression “baby hoarder”. I will be honest, if I had 9 children taken away from me, my family and children being my identity in those circumstances, I would probably have more children immediately. I can’t see how a mother could bear that grief.
I am not privy to any personal details from the church. I just know the situation was awful and Gary is committed to not disclosing any details of it. Actually, I have never heard anyone in CLC breathe a word about the circumstances except to express their love for your family. I remember families taking in the kids and bringing food for their lunches. The only negative comments I heard at the time came from the community. I’m sorry for using that term. All of you children are a blessing from the Lord. I marvel at how articulate you have become. You are an amazing woman.
“Harass” may be too harsh of a word, although it may be the right one. I know the family has had angry people confronting them whenever they walked in the door.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
Frankly, while I don’t condone “harassment”--
I am glad to hear that exCLCer’s telling of her story has made a difference. That people hear and they care. How much better if the facts had been openly known years ago, at the time.
I can’t speak about the “angry confrontations,” because I wasn’t there. (I have never been to CLC.) But for people to hold their leadership to account for wrong actions is a good thing! For church members to be able to say, “Hey! Why did you do that? That’s not what we pay your salary for!”--That is just and right. There should have been this accountability twenty years ago.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:20 pm
exCLCer said, “No one can disgrace you but yourself. I asked for repentance, but I suppose I will settle for watching the inevitable disgrace of those too self righteous to face what they have done.
If his family members are affected by his disgrace, then it is HIS OWN doing.”
Now THAT is the truth.
yentl, if I could, I still see you as having two different standards or weights. One for Gary and quite another for exCLCer’sMom. Can you see it? You do not know any one fact whatsoever that would cause you to attribute motives to either person, yet you have decided their motives for their behavior, one favorably and one not so favorably.
You have no specific idea of why Gary is not opening up about his involvement in this matter, yet you have attributed him with great character. Honestly, character that, in this situation anyone has yet to see. You seem to believe you have the same ability to know what is in another’s heart when you say why exCLCer’sMom had her last four children.
Could it be that you do not know how to read hearts or minds? (If I am wrong, please clue me in. Seriously.) But if you do not know how to read another’s mind or heart, then please take some time to pray about and consider why you would attribute such lofty motives to Gary and such ugly motives to exCLCer’sMom. I know you apologized for your words, but you still need to figure out why you originally had two different standards for these people. If you were judging from the outside and other behaviour you thought you saw in them, this shows not only folly, but a faulty systme for judging such things.
I only write this as your sister who is concerned that God does not call us to behave this way and I believe He has better and higher things in mind for you.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:25 pm
Luna said, “I can’t speak about the “angry confrontations,” because I wasn’t there. (I have never been to CLC.) But for people to hold their leadership to account for wrong actions is a good thing! For church members to be able to say, “Hey! Why did you do that? That’s not what we pay your salary for!”–That is just and right.”
A and MEN! So they did something bad 20 years ago, have not repented to the individuals they sinned against and now they have people who are angry come up and confront them about it? Sounds like the bible to me. Actually, the only fault I see in this is if the bible calls us to repent and we don’t even when witnesses come forward, why hasn’t Gary and John been brought before the church publically, just as the bible calls for? Can Josh Harris or anyone in CLC answer this? And CLCers, if your church leadership has NOT done this, then brothers and sisters, YOU need to.
I’m not telling you this. The bible does.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:33 pm
@Luna #53 -
Let’s see, if even a fourth of the SBC’s 16 million members are actual faithful churchgoers, and 5-10% are among the YRR crowd (just some somewhat speculative numbers I’ve seen), that means that an elder-led, ultra-complementarian, not-quite-cessationist Bapti-something denomination with Mohler as head theologian and Mahaney as entertainer-in-chief, gets a tithing base of 200-400,000 members from the SBC plus the carryover faithful from SGM. Not exactly chump change.
Total fantasy? History will tell.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Shocker…..
CJ Mahaney’s final message at the final NEXT conference is titled:
“The Church and Disappointment”
Sure he’ll bring out the victim card yet again, and how he relates to Paul in his “suffering”…
:barf:
Scroll to the bottom and see for yourself:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3375&cp=2#comments
February 28th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
sorry I posted the wrong link by accident above, this is the correct one
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/2012/02/28/Ending-Where-It-All-Began.aspx
February 28th, 2012 at 5:50 pm
yentl,
Last I checked, we were discussing CJ’s antics, not those of the former husband of “exClcer’sMom.” Or, for that matter, those of the pastors who were all up in the situation of that family and ended up giving such bad advice.
I’m not sure why this topic is being raised now. One family’s unfortunate situation is NOT why CJ and the SGM headquarters are taking their toys and leaving for another sandbox in another state.
But, since you mention it, I will say that it’s ridiculous for anyone to say that the molester (he did serve time, right?) in this situation somehow is some sort of victim, since his now-respectable life complete with new wife and second family has been disrupted because the cat was let out of the bag about his past. Nobody’s stopping anyone from posting anything here. If there’s some sort of secret knowledge he possesses that would make his past actions OK, he’s more than welcome to share that.
But if “exCLCer’s” sharing of her story has really been such a shock to the CLC community, that seems to me proof that one of “exCLCer’sMom’s” biggest concerns -- that this guy was hanging out with teen girls whose parents did not know about his past -- was valid.
Again, though, that situation, as awful as it was, is just one of MANY that have been grossly mishandled by CLC’s pastors over the years. Maybe if you’re a friend of the perpetrator and/or his family, it may seem like “exCLCer’s” story has been the source of most of CLC’s pastors’ problems. But that would be a totally skewed perspective.
I would like to bring this conversation back around to the discussion of CJ’s and SGM Corporate’s relocation. If “exCLCer’sMom’s” former husband has all this information that would validate the pastors’ advice given in that case (that the guy only molested his stepdaughter because he was “attracted to the woman she was becoming,” for instance), he can contact me and share that info. But otherwise, there’s no reason to give that ONE scenario further attention right now when it’s not even part of the current discussion and is really pretty disconnected from CJ Mahaney’s issues beyond being a symptom of CJ’s bad teaching about the centrality of pastors in their members’ lives.
February 28th, 2012 at 6:01 pm
MagruderHighDays- The Church and Disappointment?
You have got to be kidding me. Anyone who has studied narcissists know that CJ is keeping right to the pattern. I’ll screw others. I’ll hurt others. I’ll control everything and when one person finally has enough integrity to call me out, I’ll try to harm them. If that doesn’t work and my past actions begin to blow up in my face or find me out, I will run, all the while crying foul.
Oh my. If it weren’t for all the people suffering (CJ and family included), this could almost make for a silly novel. Except no one would buy it because all the literary critics would say, “That would never happen in real life…”
February 28th, 2012 at 6:09 pm
Wait one second here! I’m sorry, Kris…off topic…but on topic of Narcissist CJ….Maybe this has been discussed here while I was too tied up to follow…but…
NEXT is now devoid of Josh?
Really? That was HIS conference.
Sadly, again…I’m thinking Josh is being stripped of EVERYthing. CJ is going to torture him till his last breath! (I’ve been saying this since the July 10 sermon where Josh came out so strong against CJ.)
February 28th, 2012 at 6:11 pm
Sidney, good to see you back. I’ve been wondering how things were lately for you.
February 28th, 2012 at 6:18 pm
If they keep headin’ West like this they’ll end up in Salt Lake City. But they’ll find that spot is already taken.
February 28th, 2012 at 6:23 pm
I think it’s be a good idea for CJ to put together a “Part II” for his Happiest/Dearest Place sermon. In Part II, he could cover the scenarios where a member isn’t required to obey and submit to his pastor.
(Josh was CJ’s pastor, right?)
February 28th, 2012 at 6:51 pm
On a side note (please forgive me, Kris), I definitely see a toaster in this picture. And other counter-top appliances. The times they are a-changin
http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/52home432
February 28th, 2012 at 7:02 pm
Roadwork!!
Good word in # 65
February 28th, 2012 at 7:06 pm
I’m sure this means absolutely nothing -- but I went to the link that talks about the NEXT conference & saw the picture of Jared Mellinger…does he look like Josh Harris or what??
February 28th, 2012 at 7:07 pm
It’s textbook narcissism, Stunned.
Wake up, SGMers! You also have narcissists on your “new board!” SGM is swarming with narcissists -- you guys attract them!
February 28th, 2012 at 7:10 pm
BL #67 — I even see some (OH, NO!) dirty dishes and other clutter on those counter tops!
February 28th, 2012 at 7:14 pm
Ellie #69 — Actually, Jared doesn’t look like that anymore. He has a dark beard and wears dark-rimmed glasses. Maybe he’s trying to look a little older and wiser. But looks aren’t everything.
February 28th, 2012 at 7:22 pm
How big is Louisville? The reason I ask is that there is a Pastor College student in the current class from Third Avenue Baptist in Louisville. Third Avenue Baptist isn’t an SGM church yet but one would think it is coming if they have sent someone to the PC. Or maybe not? If so, would this be the first SBC church to become an SGM church. Or maybe having someone at PC from an SBC church is just an way to bring the movements together?
Source: http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Meet-the-2011e280932012-Pastors-College-class.aspx
February 28th, 2012 at 7:50 pm
CJ sees the collapse of SGM coming, so he’s trying to get out and start brainwashing the next generation as soon as possible before he gets too old to preach and write books and crap anymore.
all of this is just blowing my mind.
February 28th, 2012 at 7:58 pm
SamMcGee #73 --
Third Avenue Baptist in Louisville is a 9Marks affiliated church. The pastor is Greg Gilbert, the co-author of the recent book with Kevin DeYoung, What is the Mission of the Church. Greg is a regular contributor to the 9Marks blog and e-journal. He has an MDiv from SBTS. For some of his writing at 9Marks, see http://www.9marks.org/ejournal/by-author/greg-gilbert
The student from 3rd Avenue at the PC is Matthew Wireman — http://www.matthewwireman.com/
February 28th, 2012 at 8:25 pm
Defended just told me. I haven’t read the comments yet.
Just laughing out loud…….
These guys don’t understand just how foolish they look.
Like Dogs returning to their vomit….
D.H.: “Hey Ceege! Lets run to Kentucky. They’ll never know.”
Hey Ceege! It is appointed once unto a man to die, and after that, the judgement…
You can still repent.
Otherwise….
See ya!
Wouldn’t want to be ya.
February 28th, 2012 at 8:27 pm
Oh my! From a charismatic church to a reformed church to a baptist church. All those teachings on spiritual dna. Call me crazy, but I don’t think these leaders know who they are! CFC was charismatic, and the Holy Spirit moved in those services. Conviction and healing. Those were the days! In ’94, the pastors went to Long Island, NY to hear John Arnott from Toronto. Some wanted him to pray for them. As the story goes, BP said if God wanted them to receive prayer, He would send JA over to them. God moved, JA prayed, pastors touched. CFC started Wednesday night prayer and people started coming from everywhere. What blessings. Our pastor told us to go to Toranto. We did. More blessings. One night, we were told that we couldn’t shake when we prayed for people. Then later on we heard that CJ said if God wanted to move in revival, He would do it in PDI. After that the meetings were discontinued and then in came the TULIP. We asked about the switch and were told that we didn’t trust the pastors and were in sin, that we were a charismatic church and not a Reformed/Presbyterian church. They wouldn’t admit that they were changing to a whole new paradigm. Moral of story….follow the Holy Spirit and not men.
February 28th, 2012 at 8:37 pm
61 -- Kris
I’m sorry. I didn’t say why I was making the connections I was. I believe the only way to avoid a CLC church split is for Gary to come back. At this point, I don’t think he would do that due to the hostility towards him from those reading the blogs.
If SGM goes to Kentucky, I don’t think CLC members will care unless they work there or are friends with those who do. If CJ goes to Kentucky, I think some will sigh sentimentally of times gone by, but they won’t really care. I think if Gary does not return, it will be a painful deal breaker for the old-timers for those who have been together forever. It’s not like people are emotionally attached to Robin and all his warmth. The old-timers have become obsolete and are fairly lost in the middle at CLC. If Gary leaves, I think they will give up and scatter.
Gary’s response to this situation affects hundreds of lives, jobs, families and homes.
I do not know perp and I don’t sympathize with him in any way.
February 28th, 2012 at 8:54 pm
Yentl, I sat in many a meeting with Gary Ricucci — both care group sphere get-togethers and counseling sessions. I liked him — didn’t find his counsel particularly helpful in our long journey, but I liked him well enough. I am appalled by how he — with the other pastors--handled the Adams case.
I’m not sure why you see him as a linch pin and why you think the “animosity towards him on the blogs” plays that big a deal.
Gary’s response affects “hundreds of lives, jobs, families, and homes”? Really? in what conceivable way?
Are you one of the old-timers? I’ve seen quite a few CLC old-timers on my Facebook feed in pictures from Lifechurch with Erik Tammaru and at other churches. Have they already given up and scattered? Is this about Gary or about the whole ugly mess?
Did you witness people harassing Gary or Betsy or his grown children? One of the daughters-in-law took care of my kids and is a Facebook friend. I haven’t seen anything untoward from her.
Anne CLC 1986-2007
February 28th, 2012 at 8:58 pm
@ Philly Girl 77
I remember the Wednesday night meetings… what refreshing times enjoying sweet fellowship with the Lord and encouraging/praying for one another. :D
February 28th, 2012 at 9:07 pm
Yentl #78 I don’t think he would do that due to the hostility towards him from those reading the blogs
I don’t mean to harp on this but I have to challenge it whenever I see it. From the beginning, CJ et al have played the victim and claimed they were compelled to leave CLC due to hostility from CLC members. Their supporters in CLC have echoed these claims. Yet when pressed, they can offer zero evidence this has occurred. I have heard that CJ made the claim and when pressed, he referenced a few emails he had received but had deleted.
It is a serious charge to claim that fellow church members’ hostility has led to this split and such a charge, in my view, should not be made without providing supporting evidence.
I don’t mean to take the thread off topic so that is all I will say.
February 28th, 2012 at 9:09 pm
@Fried Fish #58~
I’ll grant you, CJ or somebody could draw a goodsized pool of folk to create a new denomination/family of churches. What I don’t think is that SGM can take over very many SBC churches. Maybe a church here and a church there. But I know of several specific churches, even some in Louisville, that I am sure they could never co-opt.
Even if SGM somehow took over the leadership of the SBC, I would expect a denominational split, and a new Baptist denomination, before I’d expect the whole denomination to just go over. Baptists are congregational. There are things Baptists will fight for (and have, and do).
February 28th, 2012 at 9:31 pm
I’m curious -- the SGMers out there who have steadfastly maintained that CJ’s problems had little to do with their churches, and that SGM is not synonymous with CJ, what do you think of this latest development?
How do you explain the need for SGM’s corporate offices to relocate…just because CJ relocates?
Wouldn’t that indicate that CJ is indeed very involved and very much central to SGM?
How can SGM churches hope to distance themselves from CJ even as CJ demonstrates that he is such an integral part of SGM that the offices have to be in the same area where he will reside, even if that means great expense, inconvenience, and the uprooting of many lives?
February 28th, 2012 at 9:32 pm
#48 Sorry, I guess I am geographically-challenge. Ha!
Has anyone read CJ’s “Cheap Seats” sermon that he gave last Sunday at the Apex church? I really don’t know how he continues the same stump speeches like nothing new has happened? It also seems like Tony Reinke still works for him, at least PT. I thought he took a new job at Desiring God?
And someone asked about John Piper’s response to the crisis. I have been told that he would not take part in the adjudicating process this year. But, he did welcome Bob Kauflin for an interview about worship in the past few months and I doubt he will neglect to interact with any other SGM leaders or members.
February 28th, 2012 at 9:35 pm
@Luna -- I agree, most SBC churches would never accept a top down elder led form of polity, so Mohler would have to leave the SBC to make it work. With his strong stance on Reformed Calvinism being the only viable, intelligent theology, I am guessing his days in the SBC may be numbered. I could be wrong. It’s happened before.
February 28th, 2012 at 9:41 pm
Persona #84 — Per the Apex church website, last week’s sermon (26 February 2012) was Jim Martin on Matthew 22:34-40 (“The Greatest Commandment”). The link is here: http://sovgracenc.org/teachings/?sermon_id=455. Was it Apex, or another church?
Per Desiring God’s current website, Tony Reinke is listed as a “content strategist.” See http://www.desiringgod.org/about/our-staff.
February 28th, 2012 at 9:46 pm
Kris:
A relatively good source told me that CJ is likely moving to Louisville. Send me an email and I can tell you a bit more.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:02 pm
@FriedFish … I agree.
Baptists are hardly awed by this mess and Mohler is far more controversial among Baptists than Mahaney with SGMers. I predict a new ‘Reformed Baptist’ ‘movement’ will, er, ‘emerge’ by late-summer 2012 with Mohler as Prez and Mahaney as Performer.
The not-quite-final SGM Board will be dissolved; Josh Harris and CLC will take leadership of SGM … christened by a new name, of course … and away we all go into the sunset (oops, sunrise) of 21st century Christianity. (Too bad about Larry T. but you have to break a few things along the way, dontcha know?)
Everyone concerned is fortunate that the Puritans they idolize aren’t alive. Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield and friends would skin these guys alive biblically, spiritually and theologically … and they would invite their dear Arminian brother John Wesley along to cut off escape from the rear. Oh, and Bob Kauflin would be left to the tender mercies of Isaac Watts …
We should let Spurgeon sleep. If he was compelled to awake, I am afraid he might end up in prison once he was done ‘dealing’ with the sins of our brothers, especially if they have the effrontery to call themselves reformed Baptists.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:08 pm
Knowing a lot of the CJ followers personally, they also love Gary. So him sticking around miiiight cause not so bad of a split, but regardless, a split is going to happen. Also, knowing Gary’s kids and how gung ho they are about CJ and how against the “rebellious” clcers, Gary will most likely NOT be returning to clc any time soon.
The next subjects were unbelievably ironic. I feel like CJ is just trying to raise up his left over followers to worship him and his church. Hmm… As I was writing that a song popped into my head and I can’t remember all the words. It’s from CLC’s 25th anniversary show during the gospel song where they have all these other people singing about what is more important to them, and one guy comes in and he starts singing “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail”… and then something about showing my glory and my power? Does anyone remember this?
February 28th, 2012 at 10:10 pm
I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I believe it is common knowledge amongst CJ fans that CJ and his heirs have vacationed for years in Tennessee, on a lake. A CLC member/CJ fan has a lake house there and it’s a big hit with all the extended clan…….
Looks like a strategic move with lots of personal perks.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:11 pm
Katie,
One of Gary’s sons had some pretty ugly things to say on his FB last summer. Then, he started to un-friend anyone who disagreed with him.
Ho hum….
February 28th, 2012 at 10:21 pm
sidney,
Yup, I remember that. His posts infuriated me.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Kris @83 -- I don’t know that anyone has said CJ is not synonymous with SGM. I just think there are churches out there that wisely keep SGM at a distance and aren’t greatly influenced by them.
Acme @79 -- If 100 people leave CLC over this scandal (and I’m sure it’s pretty safe to say 100 already have) that affects all of their children and their children’s friends and their children’s friends families who comfort their children crying at night and their children’s boyfriends/girlfriends and their families. It affects those member’s friends and their care groups and their relatives inside and out of SGM. If they choose to relocate to stay in SGM, it affects their schooling, their college plans, their jobs, their equity, their retirement, their neighbors and their ministries and all of the people they evangelize.
I agree, it shouldn’t be this way. But, if someone has been in the church for 30 years…it’s huge.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:23 pm
OZ 86 So weird! It was the Apex church and because it seemed like it was listed so recently on Cheap Seats site I thought it was a recent event. But guess what? The sermon happened exactly two years ago, in Feb. 2008! That must be one of their last updates. Wow, gotta get some new glasses. Thanks for asking.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:46 pm
yentl,
I cannot imagine that anyone would leave CLC purely because of unhappiness over the perceived mishandling of one long-ago family situation. John L was the one who came across as the primary mishandler in “exCLCer’s” story, anyway -- not Gary. If people at CLC are leaving, there’s a whole lot more to their dissatisfaction than ONE pastor’s perceived missteps in ONE situation.
Let’s get real here. SGMers have been trained to take their commitment to their “local” church very very seriously. Most SGMers, particularly those who have been at CLC for a long time, drag their feet and almost can’t bring themselves to leave even in the face of years of obvious dysfunction. If anyone reaches a point where they finally do decide to leave, you can bet your life on the fact that the decision didn’t happen because of ONE mishandled situation. Perhaps hearing “exCLCer’s” story was the final catalyst, the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. But it would never be the sole reason.
And…one thing I’ve learned from doing this site is that for every mishandled situation that is discussed publicly, there are often dozens more that never see the light of day. So I wouldn’t place so much importance upon the public telling of ONE family’s story and point to it as the sole reason some poor pathetic pastor had to leave…or why a bunch of otherwise joyously happy members departed.
That’d be WAY too simplistic. And totally unrealistic.
February 28th, 2012 at 10:50 pm
Yentl———-you sound like someone I know. I think I might know who you are.
[Edit]
Now back to the CJ issue at hand, sorry Kris.
February 28th, 2012 at 11:09 pm
Yentl,
And if we were talking about a normal/healthy church, it would not be nearly as hard as you say……because in the real world, people have friends and lives inside AND outside of their church.
If you put all your eggs in one basket as the clc/sgm cult-ure requires, you will suffer great loss if/when you leave. The kind you talk about.
One of the many horrible effects of extra-biblical teaching.
Sidney
February 28th, 2012 at 11:14 pm
The latest news on the SGM front has solidified within me a decision that I have been delaying for the last six months.
After more than half a decade of involvement with Sovereign Grace Ministries, I must resign membership in my local church. I can no longer subdue that still, small voice.
As I reflect on these years, I am saddened that…
I worshiped at the Shrine of Pastoral Authority.
I prostrated myself at the Altar of Total Depravity and Self-Hatred.
I paid homage at the Temple of Courtship.
I bowed before the idyllic Statue of Happy Families.
I sought refuge in the Cathedral of the Happiest Place on Earth, though I was never happy, and never healthy.
I burned candles in the Tabernacle of Elitism.
I lost my first love.
_____
I have purposefully withdrawn from almost all activities in my church. I have stepped down from areas of service, and slowly stopped attending Care Group. Circumstantially, leaving will be easier for me than for others. For that, I am grateful. Nevertheless, I am still frightened about the future.
Christ, Have Mercy.
February 28th, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Sometimes a church split NEEDS to happen, for the sake of truth and freedom.
And maybe people can discover that even if they go to a different church, their friends can still love them.
February 28th, 2012 at 11:23 pm
I totally agree that if CJ trully didnt want to be the president anymore, then moving the sgm corp would not be needed. He simply could move where he wanted and plant a church. CJ reminds be of the athletic director at the high school I went to. There were certain requirments to play sports and you could not have any D’s or F’s in your two week review of your grades. Anyway, a few of the star basketball players were going to not be able to play due to grades. The school had a big game coming up and with the athletic director being coach of this team, he simply changed the rules for those basketball players. I’m really sick of CJ not sticking to his own system.
February 28th, 2012 at 11:26 pm
Fried Fish,
I guess I can imagine Dr. Mohler leaving the SBC to start a new “movement” with CJ, though I think he would kind of hate to leave the big woolly-mammoth SBC :wink: … I feel some concern for the young idealistic people who would flock to the new movement…
I guess it is more likely that CJ and Mohler would start a new movement than that they will ever completely subvert the SBC. As Epaphras said, Mohler is not universally admired in the SBC.
February 28th, 2012 at 11:29 pm
Yentl,
You say that Gary has no way to defend himself? All he needs to do is tell his side of the story and email it to Kris or Guy. Thats another thing that bothers me, when people say this person has no way to defend themselves. Gary knows the blogs exsist. I would agree with you that he had no way to defend himself IF he didn’t know the blog exist. He does!
February 28th, 2012 at 11:49 pm
P #94 — Dude, 2008 is actually 4 years ago, not 2.
February 29th, 2012 at 12:02 am
Ellie…get thee to Lenscrafters asap…Jared looks nothing like Josh Harris.
February 29th, 2012 at 12:07 am
IMHO those who think CJ is converting to SBC are barking up the wrong tree. CJ is not going to leave the power seat and the gravy train! CJ will never leave SGM! Not as long as Harvey pulls all the strings. Not as long as sycophants are running the board.
And just because the SiLs are in the SBC seminary doesn’t mean they are looking to jump ship and join the Baptists. They all want their own SGM churches! They are not going to leave their father in law’s legacy and consequently their inheritance!
And yes, there are a lot of people who are upset with Mohler but he has an iron grip on his position. The people are unhappy with his direction and where he is leading SBC but not with the man himself. Yes, he is a little authoritative and kind of pushy, but he has not BLACKMAILED anyone yet. He has not thrown SBC pastors out into the cold on a whim. He has not changed church practice by fiat. Mohler is in control of SBC and nothing is going to change that in the near future.
And he and CJ aren’t planning a joint venture. They are scratching each other’s backs. They are using each other for what it benefits them. It is called a symbiotic relationship, one that benefits both parties. No way in the world two guys with lots of PR and lots of power in two denominations would dump all of that to start something new. They are just in the relationship for mutual benefits. You might say they are friends with benefits. And CJ has the same relationship with the other guys in T4G. None of the big dogs are going to release their hold on their “pack”. You have heard the saying…If you’re not the lead dog, the view is always the same! CJ and Al are both lead dogs…they like the view from the front and the only way they will relinquish that leadership is if you pry it from their cold dead hands!
Just my opinion…
February 29th, 2012 at 12:13 am
I wonder if the new SGM board will be a wake up call to some of those churches that are on the fence. No CLC or Fairfax pastors…no pastors from the west coast…only the same SGM cronies and CJ and DH supporters. I hope/pray this will tip some the other way.
I had a CLC pastor tell me recently “there are serveral SGM churches that we’d like to partner with”…hmmmm….
February 29th, 2012 at 12:15 am
IntheNickoftime -
T4G ARE Friends with Benefits
. . . that’s a good one!
February 29th, 2012 at 12:23 am
Kris #83 -- CJ and his sorry ass antics -- leaving clc, playing the victim, moving to Louisvile is only relevant to SGM churches to the extent that those churches allow him to be. Inasmuch as SGM is CJ’s personal experiment and the board, his personal fan club, they will be irrelevant as well -- at least to all biblically committed, thinking SGM churches.
The only appropriate and responsible response is to stop giving and to stop pandering to SGM. I’m out
February 29th, 2012 at 1:09 am
Mak #104 Maybe CLC and other seceding churches are considering forming their own “extra local” organization -- SGM reloaded. I hope not. In that case the whole battle would not be about the nature of leadership but about who’s in control. Some men are so afraid to be left alone to hear God.
February 29th, 2012 at 1:10 am
Turning Tide,
Welcome.
I just wanted to tell you that many of us were scared of the future. But many of us found that the future outside of SGM wasn’t so bad. In fact, it was good!
It will be hard and bumpy. Some akin it to detox. Your body and soul may experience great grief or confusion, but very quickly you will know that you could never go back to SGM because in your post SGM world, you may find a freedom in God that you never knew before. Or it may just be ready and smooth sailing the whole time for you.
Either way, good luck and know that God has a plan for your life.
In Him,
Stunned
February 29th, 2012 at 1:30 am
Haven’t been on here in a while, but saw a lot of misinformation circulating through here.
1) FACT-Josh Harris no longer wanted to lead the NEXT conference, and communicated that to SGM. SGM picked up the ball and put together a solid lineup in order for the conference to go out with a bang in its last year. CLC has taken leadership in this conference for years, and either SGM took it or it ceased to exist. It was not a power play by CJ or SGM, they merely took leadership for this last year.
2) FACT-There is a culture at my church that makes it very difficult for many of the SGM families to be comfortable at CLC now. I won’t name names but I know for a fact that long-time friends have withdrawn from many of these families. Many of those who do still interact with them, do so in a formal and impersonal way, or worse yet, show pity toward them as if they feel sorry for where they have to work…not the same smiles, hugs, and laughs I saw between many of these same people in the past. I see it every Sunday morning and I hurt for them because many have “lost their church” as a result of this season.
While this is certainly not characteristic of everyone at CLC, anyone can see how anger/frustration at CJ has spilled over toward many of these families (children included) who had nothing to do with it. I have seen encouraging signs in interactions between CLC and SGM as of late, and the pastors have recently gone out of their way to express their appreciation for SGM employees in their midst. But, for many of them, it is too little too late b/c the damage has been done. If SGM moves its offices to Kentucky, I do believe you will see many SGM employees uproot their families and move….not out of loyalty to CJ Mahaney, but because this is no longer their church and that grass looks much greener.
February 29th, 2012 at 2:15 am
MAK, as far as “no west coast pastors”--Ron Boomsma is senior pastor of the SGM church in Pasadena, California.
Nick--Al Mohler is President of SBTS (the seminary). He does not control the SBC.
February 29th, 2012 at 2:18 am
@Nick -- My post was 50% prediction; 50% tongue-planted-firmly in cheek. You are so right re: big dog turf phenomenon. The 50% prediction part comes from the sheer weirdness of the intimate enmeshing of (all) Mahaney(s) and Louisville/SBC. This feels like something more than just some scratching, though it is probably quite a bit less than a Movement™
Still, indulge me just a bit.
Why not take T4G and DeverMohlerMahaney and juice it up into a national phenomenon COOL ENOUGH so each dude has a large enough kennel run for themselves while leveraging each other’s celebrity for the benefit of all (of us, of course, not them) -- all under a reformed baptistry banner?
Start it out just as a ramped-up version of the current scene, anchored by a tighter training/certifying relationship … with the Pastors College brought under the Seminary but everyone staying SGM and Baptist, for now.
SGM, organizationally, gains the credibility benefit of the Seminary and can drop a major cost center that is accumulating unfixable PR problems; the Seminary plays a larger role in the evangelical/reformed culture nationally; Mohler recruits more Reformed allies for his internal war with fellow Baptists; Mahaney is gifted with some magic dust from a professorial association with the Seminary …. and away we go.
I could continue, but why give away all these insights for free? The Big Dogs should be made to figure some of this out for themselves. However, I can add as a bonus discernment that Mark Driscoll won’t be sharing his evangelical sex therapy ministry with these guys anytime soon, since this is now one of his ‘distinctives’.
Yes, we would laugh if we weren’t grieving for our Lord’s work … but He is indeed sovereign and at work delivering those who were abused, while disciplining ‘leaders’ who made His flock an object of gain -- financial and otherwise. Jesus is expressing great mercy towards us (and not only in SGM) by revealing what is false so clearly that we may cleave to Him in truth.
Had He left us in blindness, then we would have something terrible to mourn … instead, we are humbled and grateful, seeking to live out what we were taught in words, without imitating what we saw in deeds.
February 29th, 2012 at 2:20 am
Welcome Turning Tide. I pray you find your place in a healthy community of believers. You’re not alone, as I recently found out when I found these SGM blogs. Don’t harden your heart. Follow Jesus!
February 29th, 2012 at 2:40 am
RE #111 -- 2)
Its very hard for me right now to not make harsh statements about this post. Shunning is part of the classic SGM culture but now that its happenning to them :roll:
February 29th, 2012 at 2:49 am
Turning Tide #98
thanks so much for posting!!!!!
PLEASE do not hesitate to post whats happenning with you or ways in which you need help. There are LOTS of great intelligent God fearing people here who have been through what your going through :welcome
February 29th, 2012 at 5:10 am
Philly Girl #77,
I remember those Holy Spirit meetings at CFC following (and during) the “Toronto Blessing.
I was at pretty much all of them, they were powerful times…
Prior to that, the Holy Spirit moved at CFC, some altar calls still happened in those days, the sick were often prayed for “down by the piano” after services….and every great once in a while there would be an invitation to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit…
And, yes, it was often Bill leading these things… he believed… he was passionate… i respected and loved him for it…
Then the whole toronto thing!! it was great -- finally what i had been waiting for for years being a charismatic beyond what most CFC people were…
It was hard for a lot of folks to accept though, like the holy laughter thing… that was weird.. But hey, if the Lord is touching someone in that way, w/ such great joy, who am i to complain, wish it happened to me… But many couldn’t deal w/ the sound of it….
when the toronto blessing related wed. night meetings were cancelled -- abruptly -- with no explanation, well…. that was pretty much the last time i saw or ever heard of the Holy Spirit at covenant fellowship church again… he was dis-fellowshipped…. uninvited….. cast out
and i continued there for at least another decade…
NO HOLY SPIRIT !! u could not sense him in the dry stale messages, and there was never another altar call, no prayer for the sick, no healing, no faith… and the entire meetings from announcements, worship, message, etc.. were staged and carefully planned, and did not allow room for much deviation,,,, just in case God wanted to move…
The church has been near dead ever since the mid 90s… I know, i was there. It is very very sad, and i feel very sorry for all of the lost people there who do not know they are missing out on all that God has for them… well, they are saved, not lost, but, still, they have been ripped off… and from what i know about it, i think CJ is mainly responsible for it all… Let the coward hypocrite run away to another state and another church -- SGM will be much better off w/o him….
February 29th, 2012 at 6:48 am
Glad I’m Out,
I’m not at all happy with things in SGM right now, and by extension CFC, so I’m not a defender, but I think you are being very unfair to CovFel.
There have been altar calls and prayer for the sick after services recently. Many, many community people have come to new faith in Christ through the Alpha course, and later Bridge. There were Friday night prayer meetings up until a few years ago that were very spirit-filled, and also there were “Holy Spirit” themed weeknight meetings. Prophecy is still practiced, and the prophecy team took a trip to Canada as recently as a couple of years ago.
I’m sure Oswald would concur. Just because an organization has problems, doesn’t mean God doesn’t still work in it.
February 29th, 2012 at 8:09 am
glad I am out / Beautiful Lies:
Either way, compare what was with was is now.
A single microphone up front for “prophecy” does not a charismatic church make. Other than the “prophecy mic” what else makes your Sunday meeting any different from a Sunday meeting at any good Baptist church?
February 29th, 2012 at 8:10 am
Turning Tide -
Welcome.
Your comment #98 was beautifully written!
February 29th, 2012 at 8:14 am
TurningTide:
Welcome and you are far from alone here. Many have spent decades in SGM and have had to make the same tough decision that you have had to make. We had 20 years in and made that same decision around a year ago.
May you find again the freedom, joy, comfort and fellowship in the Holy Ghost that was lost. Sometimes the happiest place on earth isn’t where you were told it would be.
February 29th, 2012 at 8:35 am
Turning Tide,
Welcome! As others have said, we have all been there, and we are all in this together. If the church you are leaving is CLC, some of us know of many great churches in the same area. I believe some of us also sometimes meet. Just reach out to us as necessary. We will be praying for you. And as others said, there is a life after SGM, and it is rich, full and free!!!
February 29th, 2012 at 9:02 am
As I think about the utter weirdness -- the out-of-left-fieldness, the upheaval, the unnecessary financial waste -- of moving the SGM offices (and SGM employees and their families) from Maryland to Kentucky, it occurs to me that maybe this is the way SGM’s leadership hopes to rehabilitate SGM’s image.
This site has never been organized in any way whatsoever. It started out as a few blog posts and quickly became an ongoing conversation -- part group therapy for people sharing their stories and/or coming to terms with SGM’s issues and how those issues affected them, part discussion forum to analyze what is happening presently. Some readers have been frustrated that there isn’t a quick and easy way to access all the stories in one spot, or access some list of specific church names where abuses occurred, or read a concise summary of everything wrong with SGM.
Over the years I’ve toyed with the idea of organizing everything into more of a resource page. But despite what people sometimes think, Guy and I have very full and busy lives apart from what we do here, and I’ve never been able to muster the mental energy such an organizational endeavor would require.
So, usually, when people write me to ask for a quick summary of “my beefs” with SGM, I will usually direct them to an old post, entitled “Normal,” And SGM (http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=1279). Even that post isn’t particularly organized. It started out as a comment, something I wrote pretty much off the top of my head as I pondered all the ways that SGM’s style of Christianity differed from that of “normal” churches. But overall, I do think it touches on a lot of SGM’s cultural oddities and issues. It was written in late 2009, long before Brent’s documents were published and before anybody in leadership actually acknowledged that SGM has problems. So some of SGM’s more shocking, specific issues (like CJ’s blackmailing of Larry T) are not mentioned. Generally, though, it’s a pretty good off-the-cuff list.
My reason for bringing up this list is, it occurred to me just now that SGM defenders would respond to many of the items on that list by saying that they were problems that arose primarily at CLC…or, that they were manifestations of Brent Detwiler’s legalism…or even the results of Josh Harris’ courtship books.
As breathtakingly difficult as it is for most of us to believe, there are many within SGM who still see CJ as some sort of innocent victim, the SGM mascot who has mostly been above the fray and unaware of and uninvolved in everything that has been wrong with SGM. It’s obvious that many of the members of SGM’s board would be in this camp (if they’ve even reached a point of acknowledging that SGM has done some things wrong over the years).
The fact that CJ has ruled the SGM movement with ZERO real formal accountability and continues (obviously) to answer to no one would appear to have no bearing on these people’s belief that he bears no responsibility for what SGM churches have become and done. In their minds, everything that separates SGM from “normal” churches has flowed out of CLC or other SGM leaders and has no connection to CJ’s leadership.
I’m wondering if this belief that CJ is completely above the fray, coupled with the vilification of Covenant Life Church (and by extension, Josh Harris), is what is making SGM’s leaders believe that moving SGM’s corporate offices out of Gaithersburg and away from CLC, under CJ’s leadership again, with some sort of close bond with Al Mohler and SBTS, would address all of SGM’s woes.
Otherwise, the move makes no sense. Anyone with any sort of belief that CJ exemplifies much of what is wrong with SGM would never think handing him the organizational reins again would be a good idea. And they’d especially never think that SGM’s problems could be solved by connecting the organization more closely with CJ’s leadership, which is what will OBVIOUSLY happen if CJ moves to Kentucky and SGM’s corporate offices must follow him there.
No, whoever is behind the move is choosing to see CJ as the good guy in the white hat and CLC/Gaithersburg as the problem.
Otherwise, the move just seems random and crazy.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:05 am
I don’t always try to look for sinister reasons for everything with SGM as some here do.
I try to look for some of the practical stuff.
We can always hope that SGM has taken some of the criticism to heart….that they were operating in a high cost of living area with big salaries for everyone.
The break with CLC is pretty obvious. I am thinking that friends (maybe Mohler) have offered the use of a facility in KY that is pretty reasonably priced, where CJ can start a church and the SGM stuff can be housed.
Perhaps they are going to try to get the SGM guys seminary trained. That’s been a major criticism.
Honestly, really, I doubt 95% of Baptists have heard of SGM or even care. SGM is not taking over the SBC like some have said here--that would be like Rhode Island taking over the whole US. Now I think it is possible that the SBC could absorb SGM but I doubt that will happen either.
Something I thought about this morning--CJ has experienced failed relationships with at least three of the major players in SGM…Larry T, Brent D. and Josh. Shouldn’t Mohler, Dever and others take notice of this? After all, CJ is the common denominator.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:21 am
I don’t necessarily see anything “sinister” (“threatening or portending evil, harm, or trouble; ominous”) about moving SGM’s corporate digs to Kentucky.
But I don’t know how much more obvious it can get that such a move means whoever is making this decision sees CJ Mahaney’s physical whereabouts as central to the existence of SGM.
Otherwise, the organization would move its headquarters to any of a number of less expensive locales. The ONLY thing in Louisville, KY that has any connection to SGM right now is the fact that CJ is moving there eventually to start a new SGM church.
To me, that’s obvious. It’s not necessarily “sinister,” unless you believe that CJ’s leadership is sinister. But it’s sure obvious.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:25 am
Kris, you wrote,
“there are many within SGM who still see CJ as some sort of innocent victim, … that he bears no responsibility for what SGM churches have become and done… this belief that CJ is completely above the fray, coupled with the vilification of Covenant Life Church (and by extension, Josh Harris), is what is making SGM’s leaders believe that moving SGM’s corporate offices out of Gaithersburg and away from CLC, under CJ’s leadership again, with some sort of close bond with Al Mohler and SBTS, would address all of SGM’s woes.” (edited only to pull key points out.)
I can tell you that every SGM relative or employee I’ve had a chance to speak with at CLC has repeated this view. Even more, CJ apparently has subtly recast the problem as a personal conflict between himself and Josh.
I can only believe that this is being passed down from the top, along with the mandate never to enter into “gossip” or “slander”, (i.e, to think critically or do any research.)
February 29th, 2012 at 9:31 am
Kris said-->”As I think about the utter weirdness – the out-of-left-fieldness, the upheaval, the unnecessary financial waste – of moving the SGM offices (and SGM employees and their families) from Maryland to Kentucky, it occurs to me that maybe this is the way SGM’s leadership hopes to rehabilitate SGM’s image.”
I am not sure it is financial waste. I imagine KY is a much lower cost of living area. With SGM getting less $$$ from the churches they are going to have to tighten their belt. As you know, Maryland is a high cost living area and you have to pay sizeable salaries just to own a small house or townhouse. In the long run, a move to a more central location that is lower in cost for families seems smart to me. I know when I moved out of Northern VA I was so happy not to have to fight traffic and to have a shot at owning my own house.
It also gives SGM a chance to re-organize and streamline things. If you pick up and move it’s probably easier to tell someone that their position is no longer needed.
What is there to move? Several offices’ worth of PC’s and furniture? The recording studios? I have no idea--I haven’t seen the SGM offices though I have been to CLC a few times.
I’m not saying there aren’t some whacked or selfish motives for moving the SGM HQ (it’s obvious they need to get the heck away from CLC)but I don’t think it’s a waste of $$ to go.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:04 am
Maybe very long-term, it’s financially better to move to Kentucky. But considering how many people would need to sell homes and uproot their lives, it seems like a great deal of money and effort would go out the window in the short term.
The bigger issue isn’t so much whether money would be saved or not, but rather, why Kentucky? Certainly there are dozens of other cities around the country that are also inexpensive and centrally located…where SGM already has a presence and where it wouldn’t appear to be so closely connected to CJ’s whims.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:20 am
A couple of practical things –
For air travel, Louisville is a two-hopper. In other words, unless you’re going to or from a major hub city already, you’ll be taking at least two flights. You won’t have the choice of three major airports nearby (BWI, Reagan, Dulles). That’s going to get old! Louisville only works well for you if you’re a UPS package.
Building a recording studio, if they chose to do so, is a major undertaking. While they can move the equipment, the consulting and construction costs are very expensive. They won’t be able to design and build that “in house”.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:21 am
Epaphras,
Your #88…I’m tracking right there with you! :wink:
In fact, I’m close to putting money on it.
It will be interesting to watch how it all unfolds, that’s for sure.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:35 am
Praying for you, Turning Tide.
Welcome!
February 29th, 2012 at 10:48 am
No matter how hard you might be trying to “believe the best,” is there anyone out there reading here right now who honestly believes that a decision to move SGM’s corporate offices from Maryland to Kentucky is NOT a decision that is all about CJ Mahaney…that is NOT an obviously CJ-centric decision?
And as such, is there anyone who doesn’t question the wisdom of once again so closely connecting the SGM brand with one fallible figurehead? Especially a figurehead that has garnered so much negative press lately?
I mean, I don’t care how successfully the SGM board has managed to muddle SGM outsiders’ perceptions of CJ’s woes, what with their panel reports being published months before the AoR report…to the point where people perceive the panel reports as having some connection to the AoR report…and believe that CJ and SGM have been completely cleared of all charges of wrongdoing. Anyone who has read Brent’s documents and followed this debacle knows that there’s no one to whom CJ is really and truly accountable and submitted. Despite decades of going around preaching his Happiest/Dearest Place (“Obey your leaders and submit to them”) sermon, it is now obvious that CJ did not follow his own teaching. Supposedly, for the past 8 or so years, Josh Harris has been CJ’s pastor. Covenant Life has supposedly been CJ’s “local” church. Yet we see that when Josh Harris and CJ disagreed, CJ had absolutely no attitude of “obeying” Josh Harris or submitting himself to Josh Harris. CJ also clearly did not consider himself “married” to his local church. As soon as adversity hit, to where it was uncomfortable for him to go to CLC, he was out the door…despite all the obvious questions that would arise out of the scenario of a denomination’s president not even attending one of his own denomination’s churches.
The past 8 months or so have proven beyond question that CJ Mahaney does not follow his own teachings and does not submit himself to anyone in the way that has been required of others under his leadership. CJ may not be guilty of “moral failings” (which apparently equal sexual or financial improprieties). But he’s guilty of blatant hypocrisy and a stunning lack of anything resembling real humility. He’s guilty of having overseen the firings of dozens of pastors for far lesser sins than his own present issues.
So no matter how much you want to believe the best of CJ, no matter how much you like him, no matter how many warm fuzzies his emotive style of preaching gives you, no matter how much you might admire the guy -- if you’ve been following this fiasco at all closely, you would have to acknowledge that CJ has issues, issues that he has not even begun to address, let alone admit.
How on God’s green earth is it a good idea for the SGM organization, then, to align and identify itself even more closely with CJ and his issues by relocating to the random town where CJ and his clan have relocated?
Come on. The only way this move is not blatantly and ridiculously CJ-serving (and thereby harmful to SGM-the-organization) is if you’re in total denial or have not paid much attention to all the ways that CJ’s problems are a microcosm of SGM’s organization-wide problems.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:52 am
Glad I am Out #117 said: well, they are saved, not lost, but, still, they have been ripped off…
Beautiful lies #118 responded: I’m not at all happy with things in SGM right now, and by extension CFC, so I’m not a defender, but I think you are being very unfair to CovFel.
There have been altar calls and prayer for the sick after services recently. Many, many community people have come to new faith in Christ through the Alpha course, and later Bridge. There were Friday night prayer meetings up until a few years ago that were very spirit-filled, and also there were “Holy Spirit” themed weeknight meetings. Prophecy is still practiced, and the prophecy team took a trip to Canada as recently as a couple of years ago.
My 2 cents: People eating Hamburger Helper are still eating, but their experience is going to fall so far short of an elegant dinner at a 5 star restaurant.
Jesus’s death has reserve seats for us at the 5 star table, and it saddens me to see my brothers and sisters eating hamburger helper off paper plates.
I am not talking the “Prosperity Gospel”-just the abundant richness of worship, encouragement and fellowship that is our birthright as believers, without the control, warped cultural atmosphere and Spirit squashing extrabiblical mandates.
February 29th, 2012 at 11:14 am
Kris, your #132 is really good…
:goodpost
February 29th, 2012 at 11:35 am
COE RE your Post #111 you said -- “While this is certainly not characteristic of everyone at CLC, anyone can see how anger/frustration at CJ has spilled over toward many of these families (children included) who had nothing to do with it. I have seen encouraging signs in interactions between CLC and SGM as of late, and the pastors have recently gone out of their way to express their appreciation for SGM employees in their midst. But, for many of them, it is too little too late b/c the damage has been done. If SGM moves its offices to Kentucky, I do believe you will see many SGM employees uproot their families and move….not out of loyalty to CJ Mahaney, but because this is no longer their church and that grass looks much greener.”
Sounds like your painting this story where those who support CJ, or are life long SGM members, are victims of the anti-CJ culture at CLC. There may be some truth to that, but what I’ve also seen is those who support CJ/SGM at CLC post blanket “pro-CJ” comments on FB and in public since day 1 (before any board or AoR), and then ask those who think otherwise at CLC to reserve their public opinions until the process is complete. This was especially true when CJ preached at the PC, my news feed was filled with pictures and comments of how great it was to see CJ preaching. That is one view point in this situation, but it seems that is view that is acceptable to share, whereas the other is gossip or slander, or overly aggressive. I had a friend post a comment that was more negative in nature of SGM/CJ and received a number of messages asking him to take it down “because it looked bad on SGM”. I understand that in times like this things are said on both “sides” (if it has come to that) regarding CJ that can cause damage, but there I think the feeling of not having ones opinion respected goes both ways at CLC.
February 29th, 2012 at 11:42 am
A call to faith…
We visited a PCA church this past Sunday. Before we went, we looked at their web site and found the following:
And then under their Announcements page we see things about missions, a pregnancy center fund raiser, a women’s bible study (not a book study!) and these gems:
I don’t quote this to advocate that we should all follow the PCA way of church government. However, compare and contrast this kind of openness expressed in a local body with whatever “openness” your local SGM church allows.
We stayed for their potluck and witnessed wide open discussion between the pastors and the congregation as they worked towards a common understanding of all the factors involved. One gentleman, after offering an alternative course of action, also said that he was in faith for whatever was decided and the decision would receive his full support.
Add together the collective years of wisdom and discernment that the congregation has and compare that to the collective years of wisdom and discernment of your SGM pastors. Many 100’s of years in the congregation vs. maybe 30-60 years collectively among the pastors?
How many times have you heard your SGM leader not share information because, “It wouldn’t serve the congregation”, “It might unnecessarily tempt the congregation” or “It just wouldn’t be helpful to share those details”?
Excuse me, are we being treated by SGM pastors as adults or children? Are we to be viewed as the “ten that brought the evil report”? Perhaps they see themselves as Joshua and Caleb when compared to the congregation at large?
What are they afraid of? Mob rule? Cannot believers be trusted to make inquiry in an open forum in a way that’s charitable and longsuffering? Cannot they have enough faith to believe that members of the body can disagree yet still treat one another charitably?
It’s this very lack of upfront, honest, complete and detailed information that fosters gossip. Can’t you see it? If there is gossip, it’s of their own making.
Look at this organization called SGM. While some may label this as “discipline from the Lord”, are not these troubles actually man-made? Man made rules about what is right, about who is called, about practices that are “biblical”, who or what other organizations or people are deserving of support, what secondary doctrines you are to confess and about election, accountability and submission.
What “input” did you, as a common member, have in any of these matters?
I’ve said this before:
Current SGM pastors: What will it take for you to consider that it’s just another organization that while it may have started with good intentions, it’s top leaders appear to have succumbed to the temptations of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life? They are not the first ones. Unfortunately, we’ve all witnessed other ministries become a shell of their former selves because its “key man” avoided true accountability.
Why should you continue to allow yourself and your flock to be identified with a man-made system over the Gospel? Why do you allow yourself and your flock to stay beaten down by so much sin in Romans 7, never to taste and live in the freedom purchased for us through Christ in Romans 8? Why do you allow others to rigidly define doctrine and the work of the Holy Spirit in your midst? Why have you allowed them to take your once charismatic church and turn it into a church that’s not unlike Reformed Baptist? (This is not a slight on any Reformed Baptists – it’s just an illustration to show the huge shift that’s taken place.)
What will it take for you to take a step of faith like Abraham?
Is the SGM “brand” that important to you that you would rather follow SGM and squelch any further possible nudging from the Holy Spirit that the leadership is acting selfishly and that the denomination’s foundation and many of the ways they have been handling things is flawed?
It’s like you are no more than a willing patron of Seinfeld’s “Soup Nazi”. Step out of line and it’s, “No soup for you!” I’m sorry, but the quality of their “soup” has been going downhill for years now… Yet you still get in line every Sunday for more.
Be honest with yourself, SGM probably won’t even be a footnote in the annals of church history of the 20th and 21st centuries. At least not in a positive light.
It doesn’t say, “Will He find SGM on the earth?”
I’m of the opinion that living and believing by faith and continuing to follow this man-made system are incompatible life choices.
~ Roadwork
February 29th, 2012 at 11:53 am
Kris,
You seemed to see no logical reason for a SGM move to Kentucky. One very good reason is that in the future the cost of supporting pastors while attending Pastor’s College will be greatly reduced due to housing costs at less than half what they are in Gaithersburg.
February 29th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Totally off the beaten path for me, guys and gals, but just a thought or two…
When our world turns upside down, and choices get made that we dont like and/or don’t understand, and we smell evil afoot (or maybe it’s just gas), and rumors fly as they always will ESPECIALLY if those making decisions (for us in some cases) operate behind a veil of secrecy and/or obfuscation, we always want to “tag” each action with some level of credit or blame allocated to one of the performers. It’s our nature as people with an analytical bent and a belief, whether we admit it or not, in free will. No criticism intended. It’s just how we are, me too. We do it with politics, we do it with our friends and family, we do it with church. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts.
One of the reasons SGM is in the mess it’s in is because it has built a funnel in which most of the credit for anything good that happens flows uphill to the leadership’s piggy bank of godliness, humility, Biblical authenticity, blah blah blah… while most of the blame for everything bad that happens flows downhill in another funnel to the underlings or sheeps sin and depravity and lack of submission, blah blah and more blah.
SGM probably didn’t start out intending to be that way, and hopefully it won’t end that way (if it does I hope it’s soon), but it doesn’t seem to me that a system that is SO focused on evaluating everything according to the motives they assign to people’s actions, has a right to be so defensive (G&S card) about people evaluating them according to the motives those people assign to their actions.
Do those who are are SGM employees or in SGM churches really want to follow CJ wherever he goes, like the disciples followed Jesus? That’s more than a little scary to me, as if my opinion mattered :)
I’d never make a good Roman Catholic, but this part of the mass is awesome. A nice reminder of who really gets the credit for the good stuff…
Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
February 29th, 2012 at 12:04 pm
Mohler, Duncan, T4G, SB Seminary and yes Whitacre are currently located in Louisville,KY! There is also rumor that Bradshaw and Chesemore will be attending SB Seminary also.
February 29th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
#111 While this is certainly not characteristic of everyone at CLC, anyone can see how anger/frustration at CJ has spilled over toward many of these families (children included) who had nothing to do with it.
I haven’t seen it and I have looked for it. Asking hard questions is not anger/frustration.
But here is the key point. This claim of hostility has been the meme since day 1. Here is the standard operating procedure of SGM that we are witnessing here. As everyone knows, there is a pecking order in SGM and the churches. When someone lower on the pecking order sins against someone higher up, it is all about that person’s sin. But when someone higher on the pecking order sins against someone lower, the conversation is immediately redirected to the lower persons response to the sin -- usually with accusations of anger and bitterness even if none exist. I have seen this time and time and time again. It is truly bizarre to watch.
That is exactly what has happened here from the very beginning. Right away, CJ and his supporters at CLC were accusing the other CLC members of anger and bitterness. Right on schedule. But the weird thing was that this was while the vast majority of members were pleading with CJ to come back and be reconciled. It didn’t matter what the reality was, though. Like any good spin machine, the facts are left on the side of the road. Now they speak as if it is just a given.
February 29th, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Jim Jones moved his organisation when they experienced pressure from the outside too.
Similarities?
February 29th, 2012 at 12:49 pm
As I questioned early in this thread, I still don’t get why SGM needs to move to Kentucky. Especially in light of the letter that was sent to SGM pastors and is posted over at Refuge. That letter makes it sound like CJ is not interested in being on the Board of SGM. There is a disconnect between the letter to SGM pastors and the information received by Kris that SGM is moving to Kentucky. I guess we will find out later where CJ is going to start a church. It seems that issue is not actually confirmed, unless someone knows otherwise.
It is also interesting to me that the letter sent to the SGM pastors is requesting a response by March 6. SGM seems to move really slowly (actually at a snails pace) with almost everything they do but then they want a response from their SGM pastors in a week regarding the men nominated. (Men nominated by the board and for the board -- whom most of the pastors have never been around except at conferences!?!? SGM really does not trust anyone below the level of ordained pastor.) The other issue I have with that letter is that it states that the nine men on the list for the board positions are all in agreement with the membership agreement that exists between SGM and local churches. As far as I understand, that document is being revised and is not in a final form. How can these nine men be in agreement with it?! What is going on here?
All this does is succeed in raising more red flags about SGM!! As often stated by Kris, they seem blind to what this looks like to those who are watching them.
February 29th, 2012 at 12:53 pm
@Kerrin #140 -
Dude, you spell like a Brit…. :)
February 29th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Lee -
You said:
“Something I thought about this morning–CJ has experienced failed relationships with at least three of the major players in SGM…Larry T, Brent D. and Josh. Shouldn’t Mohler, Dever and others take notice of this? After all, CJ is the common denominator.”
I think this is significant! I posted this on another blog earlier this week when CJ withdrew his membership from CLC and didn’t feel the need for further mediation with Josh and CLC. This is not gossip or slander. It has been witnessed by all of us. CJ has been the common denominator in the malfunction and destruction of three of the closest relationships that he has had in this life. It is noted, as well, that they are all men who disagreed with him in some way and then “seemed” to become a hinderance to his goals/ideals (I can’t call it furtherance of the Gospel). What does this say about a person’s character? Every person choosing to be involved with CJ should have their eyes wide open.
February 29th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
In a patriarchal system only one person can be charged with making decisions. As the father of SGM, giving up the pulpit at CLC only when he had found (he thought) a suitable replica of himself, he now realizes that he should be a pastor/preacher and not an administrator. Things would have been fine if he had realized that SGM dealt mostly with little cases that could be decided by appointed officials, while the difficult cases continued to be brought to him. Since his real family has been transplanted to Kentucky, it only makes sense that he should move his whole household, with all of its cattle and sheep, to the new Canaan, and get back to being Moses. Hey, sometimes they go out from us to demonstrate they are not of us. In the meantime, those who are really members of us will keep growing up into the head, which is CJ. CJ changes quickly. You need to keep up. It works best if you don’t think about it, just trust implicitly.
February 29th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Kris said, “Come on. The only way this move is not blatantly and ridiculously CJ-serving (and thereby harmful to SGM-the-organization) is if you’re in total denial or have not paid much attention to all the ways that CJ’s problems are a microcosm of SGM’s organization-wide problems.”
This is why I have always contended that one’s ability to remain associated with SGM necessitates that individual falling prey to being deceived. I consider myself to have been a deceived individual for nearly 20 years, until the Lord mercifully opened my eyes. In other words, I bought into SGM’s false doctrines and teachings and believed them to be true when in actuality they were false.
This is one of the most difficult things to do for those captivated by SGM, to admit falling prey to being deceived. However, being deceived explains why many folks, who still remain at and support SGM churches, don’t get what the hoopla is all about. They honestly and genuinely believe the deception they’ve been fed to be absolutely true. We need to pray that God would remove the blinders from their eyes, that they might regain their spiritual sight. Otherwise, dealing with people who remain in and defend SGM, is like expecting a blind person to find their way across a noisey, busy intersection …… it’s not going to happen without divine intervention.
February 29th, 2012 at 1:13 pm
If there is any ” hostility” towards relatives of CJ or CJ supporters, I certainly haven’t seen it at CLC. I actually haven’t seen Ricucci families or any other prominent SGM families as of lately at CLC. Hard for them to experience “hostility” if they aren’t around, at least at church. CLC is becoming more vocal in its disagreements than it ever was before, but I have never seen this exhibited as any sort of hostility to anyone who identifies as being pro-SGM/CJ. I think maybe perhaps the celebrity status that was enjoyed by those related to CJ or in his inner circle is now beginning to fade. People are beginning to share and offer input, regardless of whether that offends someone “big”. I think some people were accustomed to being treated like celebrities for so long that once that begun to fade they begun to view the questioning of SGM leadership as somehow hostile.
February 29th, 2012 at 1:27 pm
clcmember42601 -
That is an interesting observation. I don’t think that the people/families that might be having that experience at this time would be able to see the “good” in the change. They are feeling too much pain because of the change. The change is now affecting them, and most of us don’t like that do we? Pray that the change will drive them to Jesus and not to an earthly man.
February 29th, 2012 at 1:41 pm
Yentl, in reply to your #93: [If 100 people leave CLC over this scandal (and I’m sure it’s pretty safe to say 100 already have) that affects all of their children and their children’s friends and their children’s friends families who comfort their children crying at night and their children’s boyfriends/girlfriends and their families. It affects those member’s friends and their care groups and their relatives inside and out of SGM. If they choose to relocate to stay in SGM, it affects their schooling, their college plans, their jobs, their equity, their retirement, their neighbors and their ministries and all of the people they evangelize.]
I agree w/ what Luna said, sometimes a church split is GOOD. And let’s not forget all the many, many people, children, families, and friends who’ve been affected because they STAYED in their SGM church. My family and I are among those casualties, so I’m not feeling too sorry for those who make the decision to follow some man off into the sunset.
February 29th, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Beautiful Lies #46,
Sorry to respond so late and sorry to be rather vague about the upcoming Cov Fel meeting this Sunday evening. This isn’t really my story to break, but I want to ease your fears. I think you’re going to be all at once shocked as well as relieved at this meeting. You are not going to want to miss it. You are welcome to email me privately and we’ll chat about it more.
Kris, please give my email to Beautiful Lies if you can…in case he/she misses this note.
Blessings,
P.D.
protestantdame@gmail.com
February 29th, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Protestant Dame:
Will you post the details, transcription or link of the meeting for us? Also, you offered your e-address to Beautiful Lies to chat more. Is it okay for the rest of us to e-mail you for more info?
February 29th, 2012 at 4:17 pm
Mole-#146
I agree with you about the need for divine revelation to be set free from the deception of false teaching in SG.
For what it’s worth, I have spent a bit of time reading and learning about religious addiction since I left SG. As many here know, religious addiction is the absence of a real relationship with God -- replaced with “doing” what looks like one has a real relationship with God. The person who is religiously addicted thinks that they have a real relationship with God when in reality they are only going through the motions…motions that give them a sort of ecstasy of experience. Like the emotional sermons and the hypnotic cadences that some pastors use…or following certain rules of conduct that look holy and righteous and give people the “high” of feeling superior in their Christianity. Just like any other addiction, it is usually a way of escaping pain or guilt. The more intense that the pain or guilt becomes, the more the religious addict will press harder into the addiction in an effort to try to get a more intense “high” from the religious “experiences” and escape the pain/guilt. My guess is that much of what we see with CJ and the others closely at the top of leadership around him and in his family is religious addiction. Addicts either have to keep the addiction going by feeding it with bigger and bigger “doings” for God or admit that they are just “normal Christians” instead of Christians with a superior ability to be Christian. Most of the time, from what I have read, admitting that is a real crash and burn process. But getting real about themselves is the only possibility for an addict getting free from the religious addiction and finally entering into a relationship with God through redemption in Christ ONLY…nothing added…nothing extra-Biblical.
My further guess is that CJ and the other leaders and family around him will run wherever they have to in the country to avoid facing the pain of repentance and the horror of not being a “special” Christian as the narcissist in them needs to believe they are. It is unfortunate for them that there are so many people in SG who worship these leaders and their families because that kind of idolatry only encourages the religious addiction in their leaders. Enablers may think that they are defending or supporting their leaders, when in reality they are guilty of allowing the addict to go on functioning in their dysfunction and harming others with their harsh performance oriented Christianity. Nobody wins in that situation and many get wounded beyond words as we have seen here.
I pray, too, Bob, that God will remove the spiritual blinders from these enablers and that His church will no longer worship and give money to CJ (and the others up top with him) who will willingly take that money and run off to wherever they need to so that they can get that next “fix”. The pain of facing the reality that they are not of a special, elite, or superior group that is above the law is not a desirable option. No narcissist wants to open up that wound, so they instead wound others.
From what I have read, the end result is not pretty for the religious addict. Many end up in psychiatric admissions, commit suicide or breaking the law in some way that lands them in jail. It will be interesting to see what the AoR report reveals because to me it looks like CJ is running fast and trying to avoid the truth that it will reveal. I think moving it all to Kentucky is extreme behavior and it is what is often seen in the end stages of religious addiction. Perhaps the crash and burn phase is on its way. Because the truth is still the truth…God deals with all of our sin. Even if He doesn’t deal with it right away when we commit that sin, even if we think that we are getting away with it, all sin will sooner or later have consequences. God would not be God if our sin did not have consequences. It’s the law of sowing and reaping. It has to come. How else could he sanctify us?
My guess is that this plan to plant a church and move SGM to Kentucky is the beginning of the end. It’s the end stage. It ain’t gonna happen. It just ain’t gonna happen.
Again, just my thoughts.
February 29th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
Sorry my last post is so long. Didn’t look that long in the text box. Sorry!
February 29th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
General question:
The AoR were hired to facilitate reconciliation between SGM and people who are holding something against them, correct? “Group reconciliation”. So is the next step after interviews and letters this March report? Or have they been trying to mediate behind the scenes since November- with people who interviewed and accused SGM of wrong doing, and lets say various A-team leaders or pastors?
What I am asking is essentially if CJ has already heard accusations about him from a list of people who talked to AoR, and AoR has been talking to CJ, and he knows what is coming…or not. Has AoR been going to any local pastors? Has anybody who interviewed been approached yet by the one who wronged you, with AoR acting as mediator?
Or is everything on hold for the written report?
February 29th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
Let…don’t feel bad about length. A lot of us post that way.
I know for me it has helped me process my thinking and work through a lot of things. And I pray for people who are also thinking aloud and processing their SGM experience. I am sure others pray as well.
You said “it looks like CJ is running fast and trying to avoid the truth that it will reveal. I think moving it all to Kentucky is extreme behavior and it is what is often seen in the end stages of religious addiction”
Yes. I believe CJ has been running his entire life from the pain of his alcoholic earthly father, and the hardness within himself from all the childhood inadequacy and mistreatment has led to a addictive controlling brutal regime out of touch with our loving gracious merciful heavenly father. One can only hope and pray that CJ meets God before the end.
February 29th, 2012 at 5:07 pm
5years- You’re gracious. Thanks for reading and for the comment. You are also right -- it really did help me process years of learning and unlearning and reading, etc. You hit the nail on the head.
“Yes. I believe CJ has been running his entire life from the pain of his alcoholic earthly father, and the hardness within himself from all the childhood inadequacy and mistreatment has led to a addictive controlling brutal regime out of touch with our loving gracious merciful heavenly father. One can only hope and pray that CJ meets God before the end.” -- oh, man, do I agree.
Thanks again. God bless you.
February 29th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
@Fried Fish,
When in Rome. Well, I am a British Citizen, so it really only makes sense that I should spell things the proper way. :wink:
February 29th, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Fried Fish, the uphill, downhill analogy- very insightful.
February 29th, 2012 at 5:35 pm
I haven’t read for a few days. There really isn’t more for me to respond about John Loftness or Gary Riccucci, except that I have never desired the “demise’ for either of these men. Yentl, I would like to point out to you how, just by their “status’, or ‘position’, being silent is to their advantage. You seem to imply that Gary is silent even though that damages him..but, are you really sure that being silent is what damages him? Not being close to the situation, many could assume that he is not disclosing damaging information against me, or my family, rather than perhaps he is refraining from confirming damaging information about himself? I had moved on in my life, and SGM, or any of those men associated with that organization, or my past life, were basically left in my past. When Ex told me of this blog, and her years of unanswered letters, I listened, and became a little more involved as questions were directed towards me, but realized a need for action when I discovered that young girls were being allowed in the presence of the man who molested my daughter, without their parents even knowing his past-that is what brought me into action!
I dont understand how CJ, Gary R, John L, or any of these men dont realize how stiff necked they have become. We are all human, and we all make mistakes..it is whether we admit to them and repent from them that makes a difference. Had Gary R and John L actually tried to humbly resolve the issue with Ex years ago,and recognized the need to protect innocent children, we would probably not even be aware of this site! Wrongs were done, and harm came from those wrongs-yes, it was tragic. But, I worked to get my children back, and was even commended by the judge for all I persevered through. The past is the past, but these men continue on, never admitting, never repenting, continuing to hurt and damage in their selfish pride..That is a problem. Instead of admission and repentance, it is spin and run..
Does CJ not know the Internet reaches Kentucky? It is no longer so easy to spin and run anymore. I am not trying to break down the men, only the lies, and the deceptive, harmful actions that risk the innocent.
February 29th, 2012 at 5:41 pm
To the individual who submitted a comment under the name “Interesting,” you need to provide a valid email address before your comment will be published. Thanks.
February 29th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Let My People Go, number 152. Wow! Amazing.
February 29th, 2012 at 7:00 pm
Kris and others…so many good comments…
I can’t help wondering how CLC can afford to buy the SGM space in the CLC building, if giving is down? Where are they getting the money? And did they think to ask the congregation before they gave CJ the green light to vacate? Plus, with an obviously shrinking church, what is CLC going to do with all that extra space? This seems like a great opportunity missed by the leaders, in working together with the congregation since they are the ones ultimately shelling out money to the Mahaneys. Do the leaders really think it is okay to just inform everyone of a very pricey, done-deal?
Another thing that irks me is that CJ likely made many of these decisions months ago and he is only now beginning to reveal some of his plans, conveniently after his agreements have been made with pastors at CLC and before his celebrity appearance at T4G.
Also, has anyone else noticed Dave Harvey is also speaking at the conference? Wonder why his bio needed to be so lengthy.
It seems to me CJ’s bio on the T4G site and other letters and announcements coming out, are effectively rewriting history, making it seem like CJ is just doing basically what he has planned for this time in his life. I know this should be what I expect but somehow, I still cannot fully fathom his self-deception.
February 29th, 2012 at 8:22 pm
Persona --
“Do the leaders really think it is okay to just inform everyone of a very pricey, done-deal?”
This is not unlike the payoff of the original mortgage, and the subsequent public hoopla about moving into a new facility, 20 million dollars, without any debt,
thanks to generous giving.
Only it turns out they elected to spent an extra six million dollars, and most people found out about the 6 million dollar mortgage the Pastors took out to cover this in the financial report months later.
So this would be no different. At least historically they have thought it OK to make financial leaps without talking to the attenders of CLC.
February 29th, 2012 at 8:35 pm
I heard that money given to Haiti relief in 2010 was never actually sent there. Well, that would’ve helped CLC out with finical problems.
Will we shortly be hearing Josh Harris say, “I am not a crook!”
What say you CLC?
February 29th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
That is a very serious allegation coming from Bob Kauflin’s son in law. Anybody still at CLC care to ask more and get back to us?
February 29th, 2012 at 9:01 pm
I thought money collected for Haiti relief was collected by SGM, not CLC. I remember giving TO SGM FOR Haiti relief.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:06 pm
Just speculation, but maybe CLC has been so secretive about its spending because it doesn’t want to look bad rolling around in all the dough they were bringing in.
—like the $50,000 murals painted in Discovery Land
—like the $$$ for the recording studio (don’t know if that was SGM or CLC)
—like the new super expensive camera that they purchased in recent months that will take a picture of the congregation and automatically counts how many people are seated in the sanctuary
—like the big payouts to Chesmore and Bradshaw, the Mahaney Princes
I’m sure folks here know much more..
Isn’t it amazing what you can with sooooooooo much money when you don’t actually support missionaries?
In 2 Corinthians, Paul spoke about handling the money given to him. He said that he wanted to do what was right in God’s eyes, BUT also what was right in MAN’S eyes. Thanks Roadwork for your example above of this.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:08 pm
@Oswald,
Where you a part of CLC at the time? Ask for proof that they sent this to Haiti.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:10 pm
Isn’t a lot of the stuff we’ve been talking about today, just speculation? We don’t actually know if the Mahaney clan is moving to Kentucky or if SGM is moving anywhere or any of the many things we talk about as if they were decided and carved in stone. We DO get carried way, don’t we? But, it sure beats the network TV fare.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:12 pm
Kerrin #168 — I attend CFC and I gave online by credit card. I don’t think I got a receipt. (very trusting on my part)
February 29th, 2012 at 9:18 pm
Yes, I remember Josh announcing that SGM was ‘Reactivating their relief fund for Haiti” (the one that was originally ‘activated’ after Katrina). We decided not to donate because it seemed a little sketchy to us that SGM was also looking for more funds during the recession. And we assumed that they would skim off some of the money, as organizations do.
Well, sgm did send an inquiry team comprised of at least one CLC pastor. CLC/SGM showed photographic evidence of that meeting. I remember they only showed the back of the head of the Haitian pastor (for anonymity). Anyway, we heard through reputable sources that the upshot was, the Haitians only wanted funding, not a church so, SGM did not go for it. They never announced that to the congregation, to my knowledge.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:23 pm
Persona #162 wrote:
This brings up a legitimate question. Namely, how similar/different is the current plan from what was anticipated circa late 2006 and early 2007. Per Brent document #1, pp. 94-100, specifically emails dated 28 December 2006 and 10 January 2007, there were discussions and (perhaps only limited) planning circa mid-to-late 2006 about a “7 year plan” to “serve [SGM] more effectively” through “writing,” “strategic initiatives,” “cultivating relationships with key leaders,” “[adding] a few [more relationships with key leaders]” and “possibly writing a book on pastoral ministry.”
February 29th, 2012 at 9:37 pm
I wonder what this meeting at covfel is all about. Could it be that Jared has listend to people and will actually not support sgm? That would be shocking and a relief, because covfel looked like they were in full support of CJ.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:44 pm
More SGM Hypocrisy?
The ink is barely dry from the SGM panel report. Yet we have what may be another egregious display of arrogance by C.J. Mahaney and the leadership of SGM.
One line of review for the SGM panels dealt with the Mooresville, NC church plant from Cross Way Community Church in Charlotte. It is well established that there were profound relational issues between Brent Detwiler and Mickey Connolly. This was known by all of the leaders involved in the decision to plant the church. (or should have been known) Yet, sadly they proceeded, leaving most of the people involved in both churches in the dark about this relational discord. Appropriately, the panel report includes a couple of recommendations from that address this:
1.We recommend that the process of approving a church plant assure the relational unity, trust, and the partnership between SGM the church planter, and the elders of the sending church and that they not proceed without this being well established.
2 We recommend that the SGM board look for any contribution, and accept responsibility for any flaws, errors or sins in the decision to plant GCC (see additional findings#2) and consider what an appropriate response should be to the former members of Grace Community Church.
Now we learn that C.J. Mahaney, the restored President of the ministry, will be allowed to move his membership to another SGM church (questionable in and of itself) and then plant another church with their blessing. Clearly Mr. Mahaney sees no need to submit to the church that has taken a different view on the events of the past few months. Here’s an excerpt sent out by the pastors of Covenant Life Church:
Last month when his leave of absence as President of Sovereign Grace Ministries ended, C.J. Mahaney wrote the elders of Covenant Life informing us of his decision to transfer his membership to Solid Rock Church. At that time we told C.J. that the elders would like to meet with him and discuss several concerns that we had for him, as well as hear his questions and concerns for us.
This past Friday, Grant, Josh and Robin met with C.J. along with two members of the Sovereign Grace Board and had an honest conversation. We began by asking C.J. to share his concerns and disagreements with our leadership over the past eight months, and then we shared our concerns and questions for some of his actions and statements during that same time. We felt the Lord gave grace for everyone to speak forthrightly and listen to each other. We believe this meeting was an important step, though it confirmed that we have different perspectives on what has unfolded since last July.
Having had the opportunity to meet with C.J., we have agreed, with sadness, to accept and support his membership transfer. C.J. has communicated to us that he no longer thinks the formal mediation he requested last fall is needed (this mediation was going to be led by Ted Kober and was to address differences C.J. had with the pastors’ public leadership in response to the release of Brent Detwiler’s documents). We are grateful that we’ve been able to talk together, and we expect there will be further dialogue.
C.J. has communicated his love and appreciation for Covenant Life and that he believes God is leading him into a new season of pastoral ministry. C.J. has told us that his time at Solid Rock will be brief as he plans to plant a new church in another state later this year. Details of those plans will be announced by Sovereign Grace in the coming months.
We pray God’s blessing on C.J. and his family. We will always be grateful for his service to this church.
As I see it, there is only ONE outcome that can be pursued with integrity and consistency. And that is if there is an agreement for C.J. Mahaney to leave SGM and plant a church. Otherwise, to allow him to plant an SGM church with all of the unresolved issues (relational and otherwise), the leadership is proving everything communicated in the panel report on Grace Community Church is a lie.
Saints within SGM, I urge you to DEMAND answers on this NOW. By now it should be obvious that Mr. Mahaney is not fit for ministry. And if the rest of the board (and other “leaders” for that matter) don’t see this, their fitness is profoundly suspect as well. So many of you boast of being “well taught”. Prove it now by demanding that the teachings these men have subjected you to for years is also applicable to them. They cannot continue this deceitful game unless you allow it.
February 29th, 2012 at 9:50 pm
Ozy #172 — Very interesting. How adept of you to put 2 and 2 together. Your a regular DPV (remember him?) He was good at this kind of thing.
Persona #162 — I’m also wondering about Dave Harvey’s appearances. I’m wondering if anything we are to be watching for at the CFC family meeting this Sunday has anything to do with Dave and his part, or lack thereof, at CFC or elsewhere. This statement was part of the letter to pastors (seen a SGMrefuge)
“Dave Harvey was also unanimously nominated for Board membership, but after considering the demands of the last eight months, the emergence of some family matters, and the care and counsel of his local eldership, Dave became convinced that Board membership was an unwise commitment right now.” Especially this part; “the emergence of some family matters, and the care and counsel of his local eldership” I guess we’ll see what we hear on Sunday. Also, Jim Donohue, one of our pastors, just began a sabbatical. He’s chillin’ in Fla.
And so the CFC world turns….
February 29th, 2012 at 10:02 pm
This is a formal Welcome to Sovereign Grace Ministries and clan CJ.
We the citizens of Louisville welcome CJ, Jeff Purswell and the pastors college, Bob Kauflin with his music ministry and all of CJ’s extended family to Louisville. We appreciate all the money that CJ and your ministry has donated to Southern Seminary it has been a great help in boosting our economy. We look forward to helping CJ finally get that degree he wants so badly. We look forward to all the conferences he will have here. I am sure that those of you who gave faithfully to Sovereign Grace will appreciate that your monies are going to be well spent here in Louisville on a state of the art church-worship center and pastors college in our beautiful city. Welcome.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Jared not support SGM. LOL Tell me another one. Didn’t he grow up drinking SGM koolaid? Of course with God all things are possible. Josh Harris was mentored by C.J. and now is questioning things but again Harris was just mentored by C.J. he didn’t grow up within SGM like Jared did. Maybe that is what allowed Harris to think for himself more.
:koolaid
February 29th, 2012 at 10:09 pm
Ozy and Os, I too wonder about Dave Harvey’s future plans. At one time I thought it somewhat likely that he might leave CovFel and take the job of President of SGM, when CJ finally..I mean fully ‘retires’. He and CJ are joined at the hip by now and it seems almost impossible that they won’t live next door to one another down in the new camp. But, it might take a new face altogether for SGM to help shed the shame and build a new corporate image. From the looks of Dave’s bio it seems he might be the #1 church planter for SGM from now on.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:15 pm
Ozy #172 — In your post, you mention that in the Det Docs, they talk (circa 06/07) about the 7-yr plan, part of which is “the cultivation of key relationships”. I wonder if Dever, Duncan, and Mohler realize that their friendships with CJ are part of a strategic plan. And they probably thought they were just nice guys.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:17 pm
GLCC: :D :D
You got that right Oswald. Reading these events the past several months beats any fiction show or best seller I know of. Unbelievable to have watched it all unfold. Main characters, minor characters, good guys, bad guys, good guys who might be bad guys and vice versa, complicated plot, sub plots, suspense, action, conflict, drama, humor, tragedy, varied locations, analysis, crime, escapes, etc.
And it isn’t even over :wink:
February 29th, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Persona #178 — I get the idea that Dave does not want to be physically close to CJ, for whatever reason. When he began working full time with SGM, he insisted on staying at CFC, keeping his office there and not moving to Gaithersburg. He is a member of CFC and is always there when he’s not out of town. This past weekend, we had a prayer seminar with author Paul Miller (A Praying Life) and Dave was one of the attenders, no part in the running of the show, just one of us. The last time CJ was at CFC, he and Dave did not pal-around together, no laughing, back slapping, etc. I didn’t even see them together in the lobby or walking into the sanctuary.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
5years #180 — Yeah, I’m waitin’ for the fat lady to sing.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
It is more “entertaining” watching SGM than network TV for sure….. Except for Downton Abbey, of course. I guess the sad part of this is that the stakes are high…. So we should not think too lightly of it.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:35 pm
Surprising that the Marlton, NJ pastor is not on the new board. I think he is close to Diamond Dave, and from what I hear, he has a good track record. I mean that in a good way.
I think Oswald makes interesting observations about Diamond Dave too. Maybe he is getting tired of this. He has been a good soldier for CJ, but perhaps this is not what he signed up for. The Lord may be at work there. I have seen some fruit from Dave. The man is not all bad. I would love to see him return to his real first love.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:43 pm
Steve240 — #177 — I think one clear advantage Josh has is his Dad and his brothers, who love the Lord and they love Josh and probably give him lots of encouragement and reminders of good things from his upbringing. I don’t know Josh’s family, only what I’ve heard and read.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:54 pm
SWW #184 — I, for one, have been praying for Dave and I see in James that the effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. And I am, indeed, counted as a righteous man because of the blood of Christ. Praise God for His work in Dave; past, present, and future.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:58 pm
Os 182
Did Paul Miller hold his Prayer Seminar in his usual way? Did he or someone else lead the sessions? Also, did CovFel musicians lead worship for him rather than his customary guitar crew?
Changing subject, does anyone know any details about the ‘family’ issues that allegedly kept Dave from accepting a position on the board?
February 29th, 2012 at 10:58 pm
Wow, Ozy…you’re good!
So “things” have been in the making since 2006/2007?
I’ve never been a fan of the T4G bunch, and now I know why.
You’d think they would be smarter than putting “great commission” on everything leading up to it. But I suppose it was never meant to be a covert operation -- it’s been right in front of our noses all along.
February 29th, 2012 at 10:58 pm
SWW #184 — I, too have heard good things about the pastor in Marlton. Can’t remember where I heard or read it though.
Which of the panels was he on? The one concerning Larry?
February 29th, 2012 at 11:04 pm
Oswald, post 186, how can I respond with anything but, :amen to that post!?! :clap I love to hear of the fervent prayer of a righteous man due to the sacrifice of our Lord! What an encouraging word to go to bed by. Thanks!
February 29th, 2012 at 11:17 pm
Persona #187 — The Paul Miller prayer seminar was led by Paul Miller, himself and there was no music at all. It was an all-day event, 9 to 3:30. It started with a continental breakfast and we also had a box lunch provided. And only $10 for members. Earlier, we could buy the book for $5. People from others churches attended also, but I think they probably paid more.
#189 was from Oswald, not Os. I guess I did something wrong. You’ll all be old some day.
February 29th, 2012 at 11:25 pm
Persona #187 — Concerning Dave Harvey’s ‘family matters’, maybe his family is worn down from hearing so much demonizing of their dad/husband, and he wants to give them a rest, and show them he’s not really all of that.
February 29th, 2012 at 11:54 pm
So is that what the “movement” is all about?…coming “together” for the “reformed gospel”…planting churches where there’s already PLENTY of good churches in order to proselytize?
March 1st, 2012 at 12:03 am
There are things I know about the Harvey kids but I personally think they’re hands off (unless they make themselves public figures as adults similarly to the Mahaney “girls.”
And although I am a critic of Harvey, I have nothing but encouragement for Oswald. Prayer=good thing. No caveats
March 1st, 2012 at 12:15 am
Thanks, DB #194 — I think that inside you there is a heart that desires to trust in the Lord with all it’s strength, not leaning on what you understand and see. Maybe you would join in praying for Dave, too.
God bless you.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:26 am
Lost @ #151,
Oh my, to think I might have a transcript or a link to this CovFel meeting is way above what I’m privy to…that will be up to those of you who attend CovFel to provide. I will just as anxiously awaiting the report. That’s why I’m asking you all to take good notes…we are all desiring for the truth to be brought forth. As a good friend of mine once said to me, “Truth is better than darkness, even if it is hard and unexpected.”
P.D.
March 1st, 2012 at 1:29 am
ProtestantDame #196,
So do you not attend covfel? If not, could you please tell us how you know such information that the meeting will shock us and caused relief? Also, I’m wondering, will it be a shock and relief for covfel members or a shock and relief for sgm members?
Oswald,
Would you be at the meeting and take notes?
Steve240 #177,
My comment was inbetween a joke and perhaps thinking the best. I do remember the last time CJ was at covfel when dave was thanking him of some sort, which happened before the plant conference, that Dave looked like he did not want to be on stage with him at all. Dave looked quite umcomfortable. Also, I do think more people are not supporting CJ/sgm now because of Jared’s messages. If it was just one or two, I don’t think he would be making many messages about slander/gossip. He did say in one of the messages, he had about 12 people come to him to ask if he was talking about them. Perhaps some of the big tithers have spoken and have had enough about this let CJ slide thing, and now they are going to listen. Even when I was at covfel when this whole thing broke, nobody really talked about it. When they had their meeting last summer, I think in Aug, I thought I was the only one bringing concerns to the pastors, but I was wrong. Maybe, I’m just really hoping covfel has finally realized what went wrong is bad so they are having this meeting to annouce they will no longer support sgm. I do highly doubt covfel will stop supporting sgm, but I thought maybe that is what this meeting is all about. Sorry for such a long reponse.
On a side note, about the family issues with Harvey, I agree with Oswald. I mean how hard would it be to hear people say terrible things about your dad. I’m sure some of you may be thinking, well that just comes with the job of being a Harvey kid. I’m sure they love their dad and hate to see him talked about in such ways they don’t want to think of their father as. a few days ago, I had someone tell me that my grandmother was mean to them when they were a child, and that killed me. I knew my grandmom to be the most loving person ever, so to hear that broke my heart. I’m not close or really know any of the harvey children, but I’m sure it must hurt them a lot to know their dad caused hurt to a lot of people. I’m really just trying to think how I would feel if my dad was a well known leader in a corporation and people were hurt by him how I would feel. Well, I’m done now. Thats the end of my soap box.
March 1st, 2012 at 2:45 am
This reminds me of what the mob did after getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar (skimming Vegas casinos). The boys in Chicago just got another front and continued CONTROLLING the FLOW of the SKIM. CJ won’t be the president to refresh the SGM leadership as “cleansed” but the same scum will still be firmly in control. There was a huge battle behind the scenes in Gaithersburg and Josh won. I don’t think old baldy counted on Josh having the maturity and backbone to disagree with the great bald guru or having a mass of people to stand with him against CJ . Josh will slowly leave SGM and Fairfax will soon follow. Fairfax will come up with some new name (front) to wash away their past deeds. SGM will totally dissolve within 3-5 years. The ability to use the Internet to expose bogus organizations isn’t going away with a name change or move. Websites warning folks in Kentucky about CJ & company are probably already in the works. Once they announce the name of the new SGM plant http://www.beware of this church__________.com will come online. CJ will not have it as easy this time around.
SGM and it’s waffling group of “Calvinists” don’t have a chance of taking over the southern baptist. The convention isn’t going to stand down and allow a few celebrity pastors pull that off.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:00 am
Hey Oswald,
You asked, “Isn’t a lot of the stuff we’ve been talking about today, just speculation? We don’t actually know if the Mahaney clan is moving to Kentucky or if SGM is moving anywhere or any of the many things we talk about as if they were decided and carved in stone. We DO get carried way, don’t we? But, it sure beats the network TV fare.”
Maybe you missed the very first post of this entire thread. Kris said, “I just heard from someone who said that he has already asked his pastor, and the pastor did confirm this development as true.”
So an SGM pastor has confirmed this. After that confirmation, found in post number 1, I would say we have NOT gotten carried away. But wow, not a great accusation to level against so many people here on the board.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:17 am
Oswald said, “I am, indeed, counted as a righteous man because of the blood of Christ.”
AMEN! And isn’t that always the most important thing? The work of Jesus to take us from our identity as sinner to saint! Amen.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:26 am
“Maybe you would join in praying for Dave, too.”
Oswald, I know this was directed to DB, but I agree. I think we need to be praying that God have his way in the hearts of all the SGM leaders and also to pray for all the people they have harmed. Lately I’ve had a real burden to pray for CJ and his family, and now more recently, for Dave.
Lynn, I appreciate your heart, but I think most of Dave’s kids have known their dad is not perfect for a long time now. I imagine some of them don’t have the same kind of views as you’ve had of your grandmother. I could be wrong but from what I’ve heard for a long time some of them would not agree with your assessment.
March 1st, 2012 at 6:40 am
Be sure to read the latest post at The Wartburg Watch -- “Mahaney / SGM – Unprecedented Rescue by the SBC?”. Deb does an excellent job of reviewing the history of the SGM/SBTS connection. Here’s the link: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/02/29/mahaney-sgm-unprecedented-rescue-by-the-sbc/
March 1st, 2012 at 6:42 am
A quick thought re: the rapidity with which SGMHQ wants responses from congregations on the re-configured elder board (I believe they said by 6 March). I take this as a sign that SGM will be releasing the AoR report publicly. My hypothesis is that SGMHQ wants to be able to announce — at the same time it releases the report — how it has already taken steps to mitigate and address the problems referenced by AoR.
March 1st, 2012 at 6:43 am
It should read “…reconfigured SGM board.” Apologies for not being clear.
March 1st, 2012 at 6:51 am
I remember sitting with my wife in a seminar at a homeschool convention many, many years ago and listening to Sono Harris, Josh’s mom.
It was about motherhood and using the Velveteen Rabbit as an allegory. I remember it to this day. Serious impact. Incredible message.
March 1st, 2012 at 7:09 am
And this is my problem with CALVINISM!!!!!!
Always trying to kill the messengers lol
The problems with SGM are not polity or anything else. The real problem is that their theology wont allow them to fix the problem.
I find this news shocking and a horrible thing for them to do. I mean this makes them look like they are running.
Which is exactly what they are doing. :barf:
March 1st, 2012 at 8:18 am
You know, this whole thing provides yet another illustration of why SGM’s approach to leadership and decision-making is so messed up.
In “normal” Christianity, a decision to move denominational headquarters would be one openly discussed and voted on by member churches. It would not be a closely guarded secret, announced only at the whims of leaders, carefully timed to coincide with some other piece of drama (like the release of the AoR report).
If SGM’s polity were healthy, there wouldn’t be these kinds of secrets and surprises. Instead, you’d see much more of the priesthood of all believers, rather than this “special-ruling-class-whispering-behind-closed-doors-about-the-big-announcement-they’re-gonna-foist-upon-the-people.”
March 1st, 2012 at 9:08 am
So true, Kris! It is so obvious they are trying to keep things ‘secret’. And, in truth, gossip and slander are best bred in areas where secrecy is promoted. Seems to me, when ‘gossip’ occurs, the best way to end it is with information that is true-especially disclosure to related parties, like the people who tithe! It makes me wonder, what else are they hiding? So much has been brought out in the open already, but could there be even more that they are afraid of being found out? :scratch Nothing would surprise me at this point, really.
March 1st, 2012 at 9:26 am
Kris, you are correct about the secrecy. I do not read here to get the latest gossip. I have even tried to post positive thoughts on SGM here. The reason I check in here daily is for the news!!
March 1st, 2012 at 9:32 am
Kris,
#207, Excellent point. This is how they operate, secretive, making up the rules as they go along, and conveniently, what best suits THEM.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:02 am
One of the ways that SGM leaders have become emboldened to engage in this kind of secrecy is through their emphasis on “believing the best” of them and on not “judging their motives.”
Like a lot of the other elements of SGM’s dysfunction, this one started out as not necessarily wrong. “Believing the best” of each other as believers is a way to show our love and respect to one another. Naturally, we owe this courtesy to our leaders.
But in SGM, it’s interesting to note that this courtesy is mostly expected to flow in one direction -- from members to pastors/leaders. Pastors/leaders are not under the same pressure to “believe the best” of members. Instead, in any given situation, pastors/leaders will frequently feel quite free to direct the conversation toward a member’s sins and areas of weakness. Pastors/leaders will frequently express suspicion and question members’ motives.
So that’s the first problem with the emphasis on “believing the best” and on not questioning motives. It is a teaching that is not applied equally to both members and pastors/leaders. Instead, it is a privilege enjoyed primarily by pastors/leaders.
The second problem with an emphasis on “believing the best” and on not questioning motives is that based upon history, and what we know to be true about pastors/leaders, it becomes clear that this one-way courtesy can give pastors/leaders too much unchecked freedom to make leadership decisions for primarily self-serving reasons. Creating a church culture where nobody ever questions why leaders do what they do means that leaders will very likely end up doing lots of things they should not do. According to SGM’s own theology, pastors/leaders still have their sinful hearts. According to these guys’ own self-descriptions, they are the “worst sinners they know.” It’s pretty much insane, that such “worst sinners” would turn around and expect that their people should always believe the most sin-free explanations for what they do.
If the possibility exists that leaders will make self-serving decisions rooted in sinful ambition and sinful self-promotion -- and, of course, we know according to SGM’s theology that this possibility exists, since pastors/leaders still retain their sin nature -- then the possibility also exists that these guys are placing so much emphasis on “believing the best” because that practice also serves them and their self-interests.
If a person’s actions are worthy of the level of trust demanded by SGM’s pastors/leaders, then I think the actions will speak for themselves. There won’t be this ongoing need for a constant extending of a level of trust that defies logic and requires people to suspend all common sense.
If you’re finding yourself working hard to “believe the best” and avoid questioning your pastors’/leaders’ motives, I think that’s a sign that you need to back away from this extrabiblical emphasis on believing the best and instead take a hard logical look at your pastors’/leaders’ actions. Look at their behavior and their leadership decisions for what they actually are. Look at the bottom-line outcomes. If those bottom-line outcomes are always in the pastors’/leaders’ best interests, then there you are. You can pretty much guess their motives. It’s pretty much spelled out for you. Quit working so hard to deny what’s right in front of your face.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:02 am
Ditto “Sick with Worry” #209
March 1st, 2012 at 10:18 am
A number of people are looking at the financial practises of SGM officers and the way decisions are taken. Mr Detwiler has again struck at one of those economic type issues that many have had suspicions about over many years. The charity rules which are famous for being so easily bent towards the favor of one man type ministries.I would guess SGM have done much to tidy up their act as the cash has rolled in but it is very difficult for particular types of characters to change their fast and loose entrepreneurial ways. That is why SGM have not managed to become accepted by a good Christian financial policing body. As to leadership, a good Christian leader would humbly delegate his power in these types of matters rather than charging on, consuming so much of the charity’s income for his own privileged faction. Of course good entrepreneurial type characters even in the church, often appear to evolve into dictators, obsessive concerning their ruling control, and regularly replacing people because they sense challenge to their ways. This then develops at the secondary level where pastors/managers operate in the same but less obvious way as they work towards having total local control. However, the way God has set things up in humanity does not allow human rule and particularly church rule, to go on damaging people, unchecked, for many years. Disturbance comes in one form or another. Thank God for that.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:24 am
Brent has another post up calling SGM out on defrauding CLC in Board selection. He says they have broken the law by not including a board member from CLC.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:33 am
:word Kris #211
Kris,
You’re like a “patient moma” walking SGMers through this -- trying to help open their eyes and to get them to think about things logically.
It must feel weird considering many of these folks are older than you with all kinds of degrees -- doctors, lawyers, etc. Kinda scary, huh? People tend to lose their brains when it comes to religion and love.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:35 am
Like I posted earlier -- they see us as the 10 that brought the evil report. They seem to think of themselves as Joshua and Caleb.
And they actually foster any gossip by their secrecy. Their problem is of their own doing.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:47 am
:goodpost Kris #211 is another brilliant analysis. Just like SGM’s teaching on what is “gossip” or “slander” this “believing the best” has allowed SGM Leaders to go unquestioned when people should have questioned.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:50 am
The new Brent post is a doozy.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:52 am
Regarding Brent’s latest post: check out the time stamps on those emails! I’m all for him exposing this, but he could have given the men a couple of days to respond before jumping to his final conclusion that “In all seriousness, nothing they say or do can be trusted. This is just another evidence.”
Also, it might be just me, but my Gothardism radar went nuts when I saw the title of his post…
March 1st, 2012 at 11:00 am
RE my #211 -
A good example of where SGMers have been long-sufferingly required to “believe the best” of their leaders and not judge their leaders’ motives can be found in the practice, common within SGM, of pastors’ sons (or sons-in-law) who themselves become SGM pastors.
Up until we started talking about it here, the process of becoming an SGM pastor was one fraught with mystical elements. Attending the Pastors College was (is?) by invitation only, invitations extended by SGM leadership, based upon selection by SGM pastors. Within SGM, the quickest way to get the kiss of death put on one’s pastoral aspirations would be to talk about how one felt like the Lord might be leading him to become a pastor. Guys who want to be SGM pastors have to serve as much as they possibly can, suck up to their own pastors whenever and however possible, and then just sort of hold their breath and wait for their humility and ability to be acknowledged. Since the Pastors College had a limited amount of slots available, it has not been unusual for guys to sit on their hopes and dreams indefinitely.
All the while, though, there have been quite a few situations where pastors’ sons were put on the fast track to the Pastors College. Then, once finished, these same guys would be given jobs at SGM churches. Sometimes they’d even quickly be installed as senior pastors.
Now, “believing the best” would mean that one could never question the discrepancies in the becoming-a-pastor process as it worked out for pastors’ sons versus ordinary members. “Not questioning motives” meant that one was forced to assume the pastors’ sons and sons-in-law who were easily and rapidly placed in SGM pastoral positions got those jobs solely based upon their individual merits…and NOT because of their dads’ connections. NOT because their dads wanted to give what were fairly cushy, well-paying jobs (relative to the educational requirements and office hours) to their own sons and sons-in-law.
In the world, where people are free to connect dots in a common-sense fashion and don’t have their analytical thinking skills hampered by pressure to “believe the best,” this pattern of SGM pastors’ sons becoming pastors -- particularly in a process that seems arbitrary and subjective in the best of times -- would be viewed as a no-brainer: nepotism. People would be free to assume that these pastors’ sons weren’t necessarily the best-qualified guys for the jobs, but that favoritism had at least sometimes played a role.
In SGM, though, members could never question what would be obvious to anyone else. Members always had to believe that Johnny Junior got selected for the Pastors College because he was just the most righteous and best-qualified person.
This pressure to “believe the best” and the prohibition against questioning motives are elements in SGM’s culture that have fostered many of the problems we see today. There is still a large segment of SGM’s population that feels like it is wrong, somehow, to question why CJ’s sons-in-law were given severance packages for quitting their jobs. Or to question how it is that the whole Mahaney clan will somehow manage to end up in the same general area, employed by the same church plant, which will be conveniently located near SGM’s new corporate offices.
What people need to keep in mind is that sometimes the truth isn’t pretty…and that it’s never wrong to look for the truth, even if that process sometimes must involve questioning people’s motives. If leaders mean what they say about being the “worst sinners they know,” and if they really believe what they teach about our ongoing battles with indwelling sin, then they won’t have a problem with people asking them questions and questioning their motives. They will know that the possibility always exists that they are operating out of selfish, sinful motives.
March 1st, 2012 at 11:13 am
Haven’t posted anything in a very long time, but given the most recent antics, I am consoled by the fact that SGM is but a tiny drop in the ocean of worldwide Christianity. The Sovereign Grace Ministries debacle is indeed grievous to those of us who have given our time, treasure, and talents to a variety of SGM churches for varying lengths of time (8 years for me), and particularly those who have suffered from the heavy-handed tactics employed to keep the sheep in line. Thankfully, we still have Jesus, to whom we can run with our sorrows. And thankfully, in the eternal scheme of things, SGM represents a miniscule fraction of the Church throughout history.
Fifty years from now (after I’m dead and gone), SGM (or whatever the next permutation will be called) may no longer exist, but Jesus will still be building His Church, and CJ Mahaney and his minions do not have the final word on any of it. Thanks be to God!
March 1st, 2012 at 11:15 am
Mattie,
Brent was MAJORLY influenced by Bill Gothard’s teachings…that would be why.
March 1st, 2012 at 11:41 am
Does anyone know if CLC is still paying “tithe” to SGM?
If so, CLC is complicit in ALL of this.
If not, I think there might be hope.
Sidney
March 1st, 2012 at 11:46 am
I am with Mattie -- Brent is very into giving his own timeframe on things. Like he told them by 6pm that day, in the previous entry apparently he told Ted Kober to reply by noon. I can understand giving a time frame if you are appealing to someone and they are not responding or even in a business sense “I need a response by XXX”, but he is giving very SHORT timeframes and in my opinion is acting rather egotistically and in a power hungry way. Just the way I see it. :)
As for this whole dialogue about SGM possibly moving to KY… to ME this would fall under the “gossip” catergory. I understand someone told Kris his pastor told him it is likely, but… to me that is still a “he said she said” situation. I was fine in the previous entry on here where people were like “If CJ goes do you think SGM will?”, but this makes it sound like fact “they are.” and then people are assigning motives and uncharitable judgments (dont you love SGMese? :-p) to actions that haven’t even happened. I dunno why this out of so many things struck a chord with me. :-p
March 1st, 2012 at 11:53 am
CLC is having a “Coffee and Questions” meeting, I believe this weekend. The purpose is to answer questions regarding the letter sent out by the CLC elders related to their decisions surrounding CJ’s departure.
I’m curious, if you were at that meeting what questions do you think would be important to ask? The reason I’m asking is because I think those of us who have “come out” might be able to help our brothers and sisters at CLC to ask good questions…. questions they might not be thinking of. I will pass them on to someone I know who will be at the meeting. Thanks for your help
March 1st, 2012 at 12:07 pm
I would suggest the question be presented to the CLC elders if they tithe to SGM? If they dont answer, that alone will answer other questions, as any member giving tithes should be able to know where his/her money is going.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:26 pm
BrokenHearted -
I published this information because I’d heard it from more than one individual, and the way it was described to me came across as detailed and legitimate. Honestly, if it proves to be some sort of hoax perpetrated on me, I’d be fine with that. It would make more sense than some willy-nilly move to Kentucky just because such a move better serves the Mahaney family and CJ’s personal ambitions and ego.
If the plan to move the SGM corporate offices ends up being something that is presently in the works but gets changed because of people’s negative reactions -- again, all the better. Perhaps if the curtains are pulled back on the move, members can give their feedback before the decision is a done deal.
Although…at least one of my correspondents stated that SGM employees have already been informed of the move. Some have been notified that they are being invited to move to Kentucky. Others may not still have their jobs.
If this story is not true, why has there been no statement from anyone at SGM to that effect? Over the years, I have been in contact with several individuals who have connections to SGM’s corporate offices. I think it’s pretty unlikely that nobody would get back in touch to let me know this story is inaccurate.
Bottom line, though -- I actually hope it’s inaccurate. I had more faith in the SGM organization, more faith, even, in CJ’s own statements about his intentions and his supposed lack of giftedness. I would have hoped that they would not do something so bizarre and questionable, at least not without extensive input from all their member churches.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:27 pm
Uriah 225:
My question is “how can you “support” CJ’s decision to leave?
Is it just a matter of letting bygones be bygones and moving on? If so, why does he get to be treated with such deference? No one else, that I know of, has been allowed to just transfer membership to another SGM church without making things right before leaving.
Sins have been committed against CLC and all SGMers by CJ that have not been confessed. (lying to all of us about Larry T. for one).
My next question is “How can CLC condone CJ’s departure to start a new church when he has not been reconciled with his current church?”
I would also ask them if they are giving him any severance money.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:27 pm
Brokenhearted, I understand your concern.
I’ve “known” Kris for over 4 years now and she doesn’t post, comment, pass on information, insinuate, etc. unless she’s pretty darn confident in her source and that she knows what she’s talking about.
She also doesn’t “share” info unless the person doing the sharing wants her to or gives her permission to do so.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:30 pm
Just to clarify… my questions would be directed to the CLC pastors (not Uriah).
March 1st, 2012 at 12:38 pm
I’m curious… did CJ ever consider Josh “his” pastor? Sure, Josh was the pastor of the church he attended but did he ever consider Josh his pastor? TD Jakes is the senior pastor of the church he pastors but he is also the pastor of Bishop Stallings at the the church my sister attends in SE DC. Bishop Stallings has numerous churches in the DC, PG County, No. Va and W. Va where he pastor’s the pastors of those churches. There is a point in Brent’s docs where Josh says he just wants to sit under CJ and learn from him rather than get into bringing correction to CJ. So CJ may not feel Josh is “qualified” to be his pastor.
The Apostle John discipled Polycarp but Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna. I guess that meant Polycarp was the pastor of the pastors in that area. CJ as “president” of SGM I guess was Bishop without the title since he had no education but did have authority. Ephesian 4 ministries are Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher. I don’t think Bishop is a “New Testatment” word but deacon is. In the new testament era the title Bishop was used I think as a pastor of pastors. Maybe I’m wrong but I think CJ sees Josh as not his equal but as his subordinate and therefore has no authority to question let alone reprove or rebuke him.
If CJ sees himself as an authority unto himself he is accountable to no one but his equals. No one in SGM is his equal since he started the ministry with Larry and Larry is gone. His only equals are guys with “ministries” as large as his that he agrees with. Even when Larry tried to reconcile he appealed to guys with ministries just as large as SGM and larger but since CJ didn’t agree with them he blew them off.
Renegade is the only word I can think of at this point.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:39 pm
Kindred,
I appreciate the vote of confidence. :D
But like I said, we can’t be 100% sure of a crazy story like this move to Kentucky, until SGM decides to do the big dramatic reveal and announces it themselves.
I posted it because it’s just mind-boggling to me that anyone within SGM would be OK with such a CJ-centric development, given all of CJ’s issues as they’ve been revealed over the past year. If there’s a possibility that member outcry would cause CJ’s enablers to rethink their actions, so that this development ends up going back to being just a rumor, all the better.
I will happily eat crow if SGM’s offices remain in Gaithersburg.
I’m pretty sure it’s not just a rumor, though.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:43 pm
Mattie -
Brent definitely comes across as wanting “first time obedience” from other grown men no less. I’m all for a response time, but a “reasonable” one would be better :roll:
March 1st, 2012 at 12:43 pm
I have attend CLC for 12 1/2 years. I have seen some things that have prompted me to ask questions, the first time being when they reorganized Care Groups. Until the latest CLC member e-mail came out, I trusted my CLC Elders fully. I have questions and will not stop asking them. Regarding my trust toward the SGM Board and Hypocrite CJ, my trust is completely gone, and it will take a long time for that trust to be restored. In my 12 years there, I have not experienced the atrocities that some have very sadly suffered, but I do have a few experiences which entails their sin-sniffing me (once when I changed from SGM’s “essentially reformed” theology to a hybrid, more biblical Dutch-Covenanter Reformed theology). My heart breaks to see the horrible, uncharitable things that my ex-SGM brothers and sisters endured. I’m still in mild, albeit decreasing, shock over being exposed to CJ’s and SGM’s hypocrisy and strange, devilish leadership….unwittingly and unknowingly. I am grateful to God for His not leaving me in ignorance. I will likely stay at CLC for the time being but will work toward reforming the Church and not laying idly.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Breezey,
I think you have touched upon something that is at the heart of what is wrong with the relationship between CJ and SGM as it exists now. And that is, CJ really sees himself as genuinely submitted to no one.
March 1st, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Kris -
The fact that it seems so “crazy” actually makes the whole idea fit perfectly into what has become known as the SGM way of doing things. “Crazy” IS their normal -- isn’t it?!?
March 1st, 2012 at 12:51 pm
Lost#228:
Did you get the impression that CLC pastors were condoning CJs move and possible church plant? I certainly didn’t. In fact I was pleased by the marked change in tone of the CJ email compared to the last couple which have been heavily sugarcoated. They simply informed the congregation that CJ was leaving, they had concerns for him and that he plans on planting a church and , oh if you want to find out more don’t ask us. Cordial letter but not the usual SGM megasugarcoating that transcribes so many of their communications.
I know the CLC pastors wanted to hold CJ acccountable, problem is CJ didn’t want to be held accountable. Reminds me of the tune from “D**n Yankees” except it’s now ” whatever CJ wants, CJ gets” . I say it’s more fitting then the Mame rewrite
March 1st, 2012 at 12:54 pm
Stunned #201,
Even if they know their dad is not perfect, I’m sure it still hurts them to always be hearing how much of a jerk he can be. For another example, my mom is not the nicest person. She may look nice, but is not. I know my mom is not nice, but don’t need to be reminded all the time how much of a mean person she can be. Stunned, even when you disagree with someone you do it witch such niceness, :)
March 1st, 2012 at 12:58 pm
Dutch Reformed,
Since there has never been a time when people can actually effect change in CLC, I hope you don’t look back on your life one day and say “I could have been doing such greater work for the Lord in another place rather than fruitlessly trying to change something that I have no power to change.”
Just saying…I don’t know if that’s how it will happen, but in the past 30+ years, nobody has accomplished what you hope to. And even since the whole debacle of SGM was exposed, other than pastors seeming to be “talking” more to the people and promising “change,” there really isn’t anything tangible…not yet.
(If the CLC pastors take back their manhood and start making decisive, independent decisions, I will change my opinion.)
Sidney
March 1st, 2012 at 1:09 pm
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/03/01/the-idolatry-of-youth-culture-in-worship/
“The Idolatry of Youth in Worship”. Interesting and thought I’d pass it on.
March 1st, 2012 at 1:20 pm
Sidney,
I have already realized that I have 3 options: (1) stay at CLC, (2) move to a godly Reformed church, and (3) house worship. Whilst I am doing number one, I am contemplating ALL of them and leaning toward #1 and #3 as there are no godly churches (in doctrine AND life) in this area within a reasonable drive.
I’d rather the non-effeminate, non-indecisive CLC pastors lead wisely and carefully rather than in the unwise haste people seem to want.
March 1st, 2012 at 1:22 pm
Oh, I have seen people effect change at CLC, and some of it is biblical reform about which I’ve spoken to them about. So, wrong, there has been times of biblical reform but unfortunately small reform.
March 1st, 2012 at 1:23 pm
Dutch- if you led somebody to the Lord, would you want to bring them to church with you to become a member and get discipled? That is the question people who stay need to ask IMO.
terry….
didja notice this at the bottom of your link?
“Mike Cosper is pastor of worship and arts at Sojourn Community Church in Louisville, Kentucky. He writes on the gospel and the arts for The Gospel Coalition.”
I guess there is one guy in Louisville who won’t jump on the bandwagon with CJ’s idolatry of youth.
March 1st, 2012 at 1:47 pm
Dutch,
First, I cannot believe in a metro of 6 million people, there are no strong, sound christian people? Come on! Do you realize what you’re saying? Those are pretty strong words.
Second, I have never called your pastors effeminate. I see them as not standing up for themselves (other than Josh’s pretty awesome July 10 sermon and some of the other bold moves he’s made in the early days of the exposing of SGM), so I call a spade a spade…they’re acting wimpy. Saying “taking back their manhood” is simply a figure of speech. I have high regard for many of the pastors of CLC. I have known many of them for decades.
Third, I don’t think 30+ years of history makes for a “hasty” decision. But that’s just me…
Sidney
March 1st, 2012 at 1:54 pm
One question I have is that if this decision has really been made why was this decision made by what was an “interim” board? For such a big decision like this is it right for an “interim” board to do this not to mention discussions with various churches.
Maybe this is C.J. Mahaney’s attempt to “railroad” this through while he still fully sure he can control the board.
March 1st, 2012 at 1:57 pm
Lynn, I am so sorry to hear that your mom is not always nice. That can’t be easy to be around all that much. Especially as a kid when our moms are often all we’ve got. You mentioned that she seems nice to others. I bet that can be even more maddening to have someone go on and on about how nice she is when you KNOW better.
You may be right in that it will be hard for the Harvey kids to hear what their dad has done. Or, it could confirm to them that they are not crazy and that they are indeed seeing what they see. (Not that I speak for any of them. I am just saying that sometimes when you see someone do something wrong, and everyone else is saying that this person is so awesome, you begin to question yourself, so to have others say, “Yes, this was wrong” can be a real comfort.)
I’m sorry that it has hurt you so much to hear that your mom is mean. I hope people haven’t felt the need to point out to you what you already know. I am assuming you stay away from people who go out of their way to tell you this? I hope so at least. If it isn’t helping you, you probably don’t need to hear it.
Please know that God loves you so much more than any earthly father or mother or human being ever could. He delights in you, even if you don’t see this behaviour from people, He feels this way to you. YOU are the apple of His eye. You are the joy that was set before Him as He hung on the cross. He knew that someday Jesus/God could come to reside inside of you, to become a part of you. He knew that YOU would get to enter His presence so you could fellowship with Him. So you could know His love and His hugs and His joy. So He could put His arms around you when life is hard. So you could know that in spite of what us humans do, you will never be alone. Please remind yourself of all of these things today and every day until it becomes a part of who you are.
Sorry to go on a little longer, but I just thought of a story I’d like to share with you, Lynn. If it does nothing for you, I’m sorry to be a bore. But just in case it may bless you, I’d like to share.
My mom had such a hard time believing that God could love her. She was aware of her sin, her problems, her failures. When she was in her 30s or 40s she decided that she would start each day reminding herself that God loved her. Everyn morning before she got out of bed. She did this for years. One morning when she was telling herself that God loved her, all of a sudden, she realized it was true and that somewhere along the line, she had finally come to actually BELIEVE it to be true. She was loved by God!
You have a tender heart toward God and others. I can’t imagine God isn’t extremely pleased with that kind of strength. (It takes a boatload of strength to remain tender. Especially given the harshness of this world.)
God bless, Sister,
Stunned
March 1st, 2012 at 2:20 pm
243, Sojourn is very friendly with CJ and SGM.
March 1st, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Dutch,
Since you still go to CLC, may I ask you? ….
Is CLC still giving a payment/portion of the tithe to SGM?
Sidney
March 1st, 2012 at 2:44 pm
Mom in #208 --
Now, THAT is a topic for a G&S sermon at CFC or Solid Rock or Apex or Glenn Mills or Philly or Harrisonburg or Chesapeake or Midlothian or Atlanta or Metro…
March 1st, 2012 at 2:46 pm
Joe in #206 -
Would you be so kind as to explain your reasoning here. I think I understand what you are pointing to but I want to hear your reasoning.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:08 pm
Concerning the ‘Questions’ meeting at CLC and the family meeting at CFC; both this Sunday evening (I think). I don’t think anyone should try to come by and just listen at CFC. This is for ‘members only’ and probably CLC is the same about receiving questions from people. Not just anyone can submit a question, I would guess. These meetings are to be informative to members and are not for the curious. I’m sure there will plenty of reporting here after these meetings are over.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Praying for that CFC meeting, Oswald.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:13 pm
@Dutch Reformed- As a member of CLC as well and someone who has been visiting other churches for the past 6 months I can tell you that there are truly good churches (in doctrine) in the Gaithersburg area. I’m sad to hear that you think there are “none”. Actually I would encourage you to think about how you identify the christian community in our area outside of CLC. There are many genuine believers who love the Lord with all their hearts. Just a thought, but you may want to ask yourself if that attitude was birthed out of the elitist mentality that ran deep throughout SGM culture has affected you and your view of other Christian churches in our area. I ask not to pass judgment your way but because I have thought like that in the past and it deeply affected the relationships I could have had with other believers that weren’t in SGM.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:22 pm
Mattie, Bridget, and Kindred bring up a point about Brent that is worth considering. Why does he believe that he is entitled to instantaneous answers from people he emails? It comes across as demanding and he seems to throw a public tantrum if ignored.
The truth is, Brent is no longer employed by SGM as some kind of leader, so he is in no place (authority, whatever) to demand instant responses from SGM employees to his inquiries. And AoR people owe Brent no instant responses to his “high” alert questions. Why does he think they do?
We all know that Brent is responsible for much “eye opening” about SGM, but lately he comes across as entitled and quick to blast out those who don’t respond on his imposed schedule.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:26 pm
@Dan- I agree sort of. However…
I’d imagine he has been jerked around so often by the powers at SGM that the only sort of accountability he can give people is some sort of deadline. That’s all he has in order to get a response.
BTW- I should have introduced myself, but it feels very natural to just comment since I have read here since the beginning(4.5 yrs- phew). HI- I’m Izze. :new
March 1st, 2012 at 3:29 pm
Oswald,
Thank you so much for your kind words. Of course, I will pray for Dave and the rest of you. As Stunned has noted, there are people there that I love dearly and I do not want them to be in pain over these circumstances.
I’m sorry it took so long to respond. I turned in the first draft of my Masters thesis on Sunday night and I got the early red ink bloodbath yesterday and the entire bloodbath of red ink today. (I was told the science was “sound” and I cling to that but I have a boatload of work to do to revise it for the second round of red ink.)
Plus I have a course topics discussion to lead tonight and a project to work on that may be added to the thesis.
Sorry to go on but I wanted to thank you for the kind words extended to me.
March 1st, 2012 at 3:41 pm
HIYA Izze!!
You shoulda said something! Glad you’re here. :)
March 1st, 2012 at 3:43 pm
@Yentl:
You’re raising an issue that I’ve wondered about for some time. Why can’t Gary Ricucci and others who have been accused of cover-ups regarding serious issues such as sexual abuse and blackmail, defend themselves directly as opposed to disseminating information such that other people with SGM associations end up on blogs defending them 2nd-hand, as you are doing?
If Gary R. believes that clergy confidentiality issues have put him in a bind regarding ExClCers case, why doesn’t he come here and simply make a short statement saying so? Or if blogs are an ungodly means of communicating why doesn’t he write a letter about why he can’t discuss ExClCers case and tape it to SGM corporate’s door/CLC’s door.
Is it possible that the real reason Gary R. can’t speak for himself is that his legal counsel has advised not to lest he be held liable for some less-than-professional/ethical actions he’s taken in the past?
I probably can’t ask him that question directly without being accused of harassment but you can. So that’s my challenge to you.
Seek out Gary R. and ask him, “has your legal counsel advised you not to make any public statements of any kind about your involvement with ExClCers family because your actions were inappropriate, unethical, or illegal and could therefore land you in court/jail?”
March 1st, 2012 at 3:50 pm
izze # 253. :goodpost I’ve been there exactly: Leaving CLC but also unconsciously believing that no other church is good enough and no other Christian is “good enough of a Christian”. It’s awful what the “dearest place on earth” with its “best bookstore in the world” can do to you. Even when leaving, you remain the brainwashed person you have become. It takes a while to change your thinking. Dutch, please think about it. Don’t miss out on great churches and great relationships. CLC is not the mecca of christianity. You are considering leaving, remember?
March 1st, 2012 at 4:00 pm
Thank the Lord you all and sgm refuge are here. Just now realizing how masochistic and gullible I tend to be, and that even more, those are merely symptoms of lack of faith, pride and personal desire for acceptance and approval of man. Thank God for His mercy and faithfulness! Let us pray for those believers who look to others and themselves for anything, rather than the one and only head of the Church, Christ Jesus. For those leaders complicit in such secret, elitist, arrogant manipulations, may many angels from God instruct lots of little donkeys. Regarding the threats made on your family/families some of you have received for your courage to speak out against a “family of churches” which looks more like a shepherding movement/cult, (which alone, warrants public notification and action), I’m praying for your peace and safety.
March 1st, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Hi Ellie! Honestly I’ve wanted to at times, but then another posters says exactly what I would have said but so much better! :-D
March 1st, 2012 at 4:18 pm
DB #256 — Praying for you in your endeavors. Be cool.
March 1st, 2012 at 4:34 pm
A lot of people have shared similar sentiments to “Dutch Reformed’s,” where when they look at other churches, it can feel like there’s nowhere else out there that has “sound doctrine” and where people take their Christian faith seriously enough to let it affect the way they live.
I think that feeling is understandable. SGM churches -- and CLC in particular -- have spent decades teaching their people that a church MUST engage in certain practices or run the very real risk of not being a truly Christian church. The book Why Small Groups? is a good example of the propaganda that SGM has put out over the years to make people feel this way. In that book, CJ and some of the other CLC pastors lay out a case that essentially says 1) If a person is really saved and really a Christian, his life will exhibit sanctification; 2) Sanctification can only happen within the context of churches that have small groups that engage in very specific practices (and not just social get-togethers; and 3) These practices include confronting one another about sins and confessing sins to one another.
By the end of Why Small Groups? it becomes VERY clear that the authors believe that CLC’s approach to small groups is pretty much the only way a person can be truly sanctified…which, as they establish at the beginning of the book, is necessary evidence of one’s salvation. So, the bottom line is that those men believed it would be nearly impossible for someone to be “truly saved” without their church’s approach to small groups.
Yet the reality is that the way CLC went about doing their small groups, particularly back when that book was first written (mid-to-late-90s?), heavily emphasized sin, to the point where many (if not most) groups had people sit and take turns confessing their sins to the group, even if they didn’t feel particularly like confessing anything on a particular night. This approach is quite literally nothing like what you’ll find out in “normal” Christianity…because such a culture of confrontation and confession among people who are not extremely close long-time friends is not normal.
But the SGMer who has lived with small groups done like that for awhile, and who has been long fed the idea that this kind of confession/confrontation is essential to his sanctification, which is essential to his salvation, can easily attend another church in the area and walk away horrified at the seemingly lax approach being taken toward sanctification…because they lack perspective from being immersed in SGM’s teachings for such a long time.
I’m NOT saying that this is what is behind “Dutch Reformed’s” feelings right now about how hard it is to find a good church after leaving CLC. But I do know that it is a mindset that has affected others in that position.
I don’t have enough time to delve into the other aspect of “Dutch Reformed’s” remarks -- about churches that lack sound doctrine -- but I will say that that’s another aspect of the SGM experience that has probably been misrepresented. While SGM gets some aspects of Christianity right, there is much that SGM has taught over the years that absolutely was NOT “sound doctrine.” The idea that one’s pastor is some sort of all-knowing, all-seeing spiritual authority with special abilities to see inside men’s hearts is one piece of SGM’s doctrine I’d call wrong, or unsound. So are the aspects of doctrine that have led to SGM’s pyramid-style authority structure and the fact that so many leaders don’t really have any true accountability to the people whom they serve.
Those unsound doctrines may not be as hugely important to the gospel as some others that SGM gets right, but they have had immense negative effects on a lot of people’s understanding of Jesus and Who He is.
So I think it’s also important to cut other non-SGM churches some slack in the doctrine department.
March 1st, 2012 at 4:40 pm
I agree with Oswald and everyone else who said they are praying for this meeting at CFC. I no longer go there but it has been a heavy burden on my heart and in my spirit to be praying for the leadership and especially for the members.
March 1st, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Stunned,
Thank you so much for your kind words. Yeah, my mom has a history of putting others down. Ever since grade school she was always comparing me to other girls, saying how much more prettier they were than me and smarter. I have suffered her always telling me I’m an idiot. The thing that hurts the most is that I’m constantly told my mom never said those things or it could have been worse. While I understand it could have been worse, that doesn’t help the matter. I’m not going to get into too much detail, but my mom has even called her grandkids mistakes because they were not born inside of a marriage. No one my mom worked with even knew she was a grandmother for two years. Granted I know my mother can be a mean person, but it is very hard for me to go see my sister because of the way she talks about her, I already know how my mom is and don’t need to be reminded everytime i go to my sisters to see her or my nieces. Maybe this is why I felt so good at cfc because I was used to being told I’m not pretty enough or smart enough. Not that covfel people ever told me that, but they always made me feel I never deserve anything at all. That being told I’m stupid and not pretty is better than I deserve. And when I would reveal this stuff to people at covfel they would simply be like well your mom could have hit you. I understand that. When i went to my doctor and talked ot her about issues she told me that women she does see always tell her the emotional abuse is worse than the physical abuse. That may not be true for all women, but for the ones she talked with it was. When i shared this with covfel people they looked at me like I had 10 heads. They bascially said a doctor doesn’t really know anything. So sorry to have such a long post to you that doesnt really relate to sgm. I just wanted to see what harveys kids may be thinking, “yes we know our dad is a jerk, but you dont need to tell me that all the time”. Stunned, thanks for your sincere kindness. Once again sorry for the long post. :)
March 1st, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Sid in #248 --
Yes, CLC is still sending money to SGM. Josh is walking a tight rope with the CJ and SGM faithful that attend CLC. My guess…he is waiting for the AoR report to blast them, the Detwiler legal process to work it’s way through things, and the CJ move away followed by the SGM move. Then it will be easy to stop the funding without upsetting any of the CJ faithful or the SGM faithful.
March 1st, 2012 at 5:28 pm
In The Nick of Time, post 249-agreed!
March 1st, 2012 at 5:34 pm
Lynn, I already mentioned this book once, but it is worth mentioning again. It is called “On The Threshold of Hope”, by Diane Mandt Langberg, PH.D While this book is specifically directed towards survivors of sexual abuse, it speak universal truths about abuse as well. Perhaps, this doctor may also have other books, but if not, this book would be worth your read. It speaks of lies we believe due to abuse. Check it out!
March 1st, 2012 at 5:42 pm
“No matter what Dr. Mohler would like to believe, no matter what C.J. Mahaney may think, Southern Baptist churches are congregational. They hold firmly to the priesthood of the believer. For the most part they are not Calvinists.
I still say–and believe, and hope, and pray!!–that there is no way, no way in this world or another, that SGM can take over the SBC. Or most SBC churches individually.
Doesn’t mean I’m thrilled to think of SGM moving to Kentucky. I have family there.
”
First of all, this is not really about Calvinism. That is the rallying cry for the YRR troops. If you have followed SBC pastor blogs you will find out that 3pter’s are considered Calvinist enough for Mohler and co. plans. In fact, when Mohler said taht Reformed was the only place one could go if they wanted to see the nations rejoice (on a GC vid) many YRR said that includes all the SBC because the SBC is really Calvinist because the founders were Calvinists. (There is a lot of history he is ignoring. Not to mention they were Calvinist and pro slavery. But not all Calvinists by any stretch. Mohler is simply rewriting history for his own purpose and few ever check his words because he is so “brilliant”)
There is no need to “take over” the SBC. A new “nickname” was pretty much forced on the SBC by the current leadership (Mainly mega church pastors and REformed folks). And keep in mind the convention voted in 2004 to NOT study changing the name. The messengers were ignored and the now president convened what he calledc an “unofficial” task force full of “official” SBC people and this is their recommendation. And end run around our messenger system and process.
So, it will be a “choice”. Problem is, right after the announcment, Mohler, an employee of the SBC, sent out a tweet saying that SBTS will now be known as a Great Commission Baptist instutition. Kind of nervy for an employee to do before the convention votes on whether to adopt the nickmane. But he is Al Mohler. Who are we to disagree?
So, your point about SBC polity is moot. It is already over. We have our kings and popes in place. Mohler is an employee and there has been no vote to affirm the nickname (that happens in June) but he felt very comfortable to tell the world what SBTS will be called. He is king, you see.
And so many articles have already been written by the sycophants about the SBC’s “racist” past that anyone who does not adopt the name will be forever known as racist. Even if the real reason is because they had a problem with the “process” and going around the messengers even though they voted no on this very thing before. Our typical polity is to vote on convening a task force for such things. They simply ignored it using technical jargon such as “unofficial”
So, you will see it line up as those who adopt the nickname and those who don’t. Those who don’t will be the congregation polity people, small churches and mainly pastors over 40-50.
Those who adopt it will be the mega churches, mini mega churches, aspiring mega churches, YRR, and most of the instutitional leaders from Lifeway, seminaries, etc. Even Paige Patterson bought a ticket on this train.
The SBC is dead for all purposes. And we will see elder-like rule in the GCB. Mahaney will be right at home with his “voluntary” association with the GBC. As are already Acts 29 (Driscoll) which we are already funding thanks to Kevin Ezell, the former pastor of Highview in Louisville where MOhler has gone for years who is now the president of NAMB. And where the SBTS Dean is preaching (double dipping)
There will be some small fights but Mohler has solidified his position. He brings T4G and GC folks. People love fame, movements and big numbers. Many will follow Mohler as to not miss the train. and I have only skimmed the surface of what is going on.
It is over, folks. Priesthood of believer is dead is dead in the SBC for all intent purposes. The Nicolatians are in charge. Read your Revelation.
March 1st, 2012 at 6:01 pm
Re Brent’s newest post -- I bow to no one in my disdain for the bad fruit of Bill Gothard. But where is the Gothardism here -- legalism on the articles of incorporation? If so, I would respectfully disagree. Respect for law and legalism are opposites, not synonyms.
It is legally foolish in the extreme and culpably so (Brent’s point) to break the organization’s agreement with CLC when that clause was written to guard against precisely this kind of crisis cutting CLC out of the process.
And while tempting to invoke all kinds of scriptures for “keeping peace”, legal agreements entered into by Christians before the government are entered into as well before God. No one compelled SGM to write this into the incorporation. Minimally, SGM will reap yet another dose of divine discipline for breaking the law.
Combined with the chilly spitefulness towards Josh Harris by failing to extend a no-brainer nomination to the new Board, look for a double-dose of heavenly rebuke, seen or unseen.
If (hypothetical, of course, not factual) SGM wanted what they profess, including a CLC member would have gone further towards confirming repentance and a desire for iron-sharpening-iron fellowship than any number of repackaged polities.
In the apparent scale of things, ignoring papers of incorporation seems to rank low on the list (and we all do it, don’t we wink wink wink), but I think Brent is spot-on to underline the relevant connection between the incorporation papers, CLC and SGM.
What is that connection? Lawlessness posing as (spiritually lawful) N.T. Christianity.
But lawlessness was not given a pass under the New Covenant and will mark the final days of the age and the faith-departing churches, especially, by chilling the love of the saints.
(Postscript -- likewise, the probable move of HQ to Kentucky is a textbook instance of organizational lawlessness, taking place amidst daring, conscience-clear professions of ‘change’ from past ways. Should there not be a CLC member on the new Board to weigh in on that? The incorporation papers require it for SGM to be proceeding lawfully -- biblically and in the eyes of the state.)
March 1st, 2012 at 6:07 pm
IntheNick #266:
Thanks for the info. What feels so weird about this is that the pastors of CLC, without the vote or approval of the members, have decided to speak out of both sides of their mouth…faithful to the CLC loyals AND the SGM loyals. In the name of what? In the name of spreading the Gospel to the nations? In the name of feeding the poor or helping the orphans and widows? In the name of righteousness and the glory of God?
Um. Nope. In the name of keeping as many members happy as possible. In the name of keeping the numbers as high as they can.
Really? This is a church? Or is it a business?
What I don’t understand is WHAT or WHO is CLC standing for? What are their convictions? Do they have convictions? Where does God fit into this picture?
So, the pastors of CLC are using people’s tithe (money they are giving back to God) to pay an organization that has proven itself to be corrupt to the core.
That’s pretty bad. I hope anyone and everyone who does not agree with SGM will make very clear to the powers at CLC that they do NOT want ANY of their tithe going to SGM.
It’s so disappointing.
Sidney
March 1st, 2012 at 6:59 pm
“It is over, folks. Priesthood of believer is dead is dead in the SBC for all intent purposes….”
God forbid that it should be so.
I will not believe it until pastors in Glenville and Georgetown and Cadiz say so. And all the other little churches.
March 1st, 2012 at 7:05 pm
True is true even if powerful (-seeming) people deny it.
March 1st, 2012 at 7:51 pm
“I will not believe it until pastors in Glenville and Georgetown and Cadiz say so. And all the other little churches.”
Luna, Did you read where the local SBC association in Owensboro would not allow an Acts 29 church to join the Assoc? There are some holdouts. This “SBC” funded Acts 29 church had something wacko like a 60 page belief statement that even discussed Santa Claus.
So, you are right in a way…but keep in mind, they might stay “SBC” but they will have no seminaries, etc. Also remember, back in the 90′s, 40,000 messengers were attending the convention and voting. Now they are lucky to get 5,000 and most of those are in paid ministry. The elites are glad the pew sitters are no longer coming to vote.
March 1st, 2012 at 7:54 pm
I have a question. How is CJ affording this move to take SGM entities to Ky? Where is the money coming from? All those SGM churches who gave to HQ?
Of course, the question is moot considering the polity of SGM. T
March 1st, 2012 at 8:07 pm
The Recent SGM Announcements May Reflect An Unbalanced Mind As Opposed to Serious Plans
Taking C.J. Mahaney’s statements at face value may be a mistake at this point. Despite his power over SGM he cannot over-rule the civil legal system, which he clearly does not understand. According to its most recent financial statement SGM is a Maryland non-profit and integrated auxiliary of CLC. It must give 24 months of notice to end this arrangement. CLC appears to have at least 18 months to buy SGM’s portion of its building back. SGM cannot violate its bylaws and expect to remain a non-profit in good standing with the state of MD, I’m guessing. So no, per Brent Detwiler’s recent post, board meetings sans a representative from CLC will be a no-go no matter how mad C.J. is at Josh.
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/Reference/SGMFinancialStatements_FY2011.pdf
So Mahaney can go to Kentucky if he likes but he can’t take SGM and its assets with him for at least 2 years, assuming it has any assets apart from the value of the building at that point. Furthermore, the financial statement above and the letters from various CLC pastors indicate that at least 50% of SGM’s revenue comes from its five wealthiest churches in the Washington D.C. area, all of whom seem to be indicating a willingness to leave SGM and take their funding with them. CLC alone gives SGM almost $1,000,000 in franchise fees/year out of the $3,000,000 and change/year that SGM gets in franchise fees from all 95 of its franchise churches. Again the financial statement above bears these facts up.
So if the D.C. churches go, SGM is sunk financially and if it wants to keep its non-profit status, that enables it to not have to pay taxes on the money it receives, it will have to play by the rules of the State of MD and the federal government, not whatever rules C.J. Mahaney feels empowered to make up as he goes along.
I have no doubt that Al Mohler wanted to form an empire with SGM and the more radical elements of the SBC eventually. However this is not how he wanted to go about it and backing Mahaney at this point would probably cost him control of the SBC. It would certainly cost him his contracts with Newsweek and CNN as he could no longer convince the powers-that-be at those organizations that he was a moderate voice of the Evangelical world, as opposed to being an extremist who does not believe in the tenets of Protestantism by any stretch of the imagination.
C.J. Mahaney does not seem aware of his limitations. Namely, he can destroy SGM but he can’t take it with him to Kentucky. I don’t think his mind can grasp this concept in its present state…which seems a little agitated and/or divorced from the reality most people see.
I would say all of the above is my opinion, but it’s just common sense based on the numbers and legal agreements outlined in SGM’s financial statement.
March 1st, 2012 at 8:29 pm
GRD, What about the asset of so called intellectual property like Kauflin and his talent? Who owns that? Is it all copyrigted to SGM and considered assets?
“I have no doubt that Al Mohler wanted to form an empire with SGM and the more radical elements of the SBC eventually. However this is not how he wanted to go about it and backing Mahaney at this point would probably cost him control of the SBC”
This is why the “nickname” was so clever. It is totally “voluntary”, even Mohler proounced SBTS as GBC right away and he is only an employee. There is this whole deal with the original SBC charter and the state of Georgia they had to consider. This is their way out of that problem. It will still be “SBC” for legal purposes only….. but GBC for marketing purposes. Mohler has nothing to lose here.
And, CJ probably has good lawyers. We have not considered the T4G angle in Louisville which is a huge business. perhaps that is part of moving to Louisville. If you click on T4G bookstore, it is SGM site.
March 1st, 2012 at 8:30 pm
@Sydney: you are entirely correct. CLC is trying to be too wise-, clever- and probably pastoral- by half, mainly because they could lose 80% of the church if they speak out boldly, or so it seems. I predict they will lose 80% if they don’t speak out soon ….
I speak as a de-gifted pastor (not by SGM ;-) who chose to stand for the truth in my out-of-the-way situation at the risk of losing everything. And, hey, we lost everything. Not bragging. I’m more “afraid” of Jesus than men, thank goodness, though only barely. Point: it’s very hard to act boldly (repeatedly) when you’re facing the cost. But that’s why we leaders/elders/”apostles” get paid the big bucks and are promised particular heavenly rewards for faithfulness, isn’t it? (Our Lord loves us tenderly forever, but never seems to pity us as we, um, deserve, or so I’ve noticed over the decades. I’m still working on Him, though, about this pity thing, which doesn’t seem fair, does it?)
I myself have been scathing about CLC’s recent letters. No apologies and I ain’t taking it back. Their letter on the panel report was shamefully inadequate.
That said, Josh Harris was on the glide path for years to be C.J’s successor. Consider his dllemma also as someone who genuinely loved and respected C.J. as a spiritual father. I feel certain he knew the path that C;J. had laid out for him. How would you feel?
Then, the Lord Jesus came by His Spirit in July, 2011. We know this, don’t we, from Josh’s choice? The President of the Churches, Inc and Josh Harris looked squarely at one another (metaphorically speaking), while the former asked the latter whom Josh served -- was it He HIimself or C.J.? We know Josh answered His Master, “you only, Lord” because Josh did risk-AND-lose everything promised him at SGM. PRAY FOR HIM, but don’t pity him, of course. Our Boss so knows how to reward His faithful servants in the age to come. No one can ever take away what Josh won spiritually this past July. That’s done.
I suspect his liberty this past summer came from speaking out as a board member. Now, Josh may feel constrained to walk carefully as part of the entire CLC team, and rightly so. BUT … what if the same President of the Churches is now coming to the entire pastoral team at CLC with the same question He asked Josh this summer (and is asking Josh afresh)? And what if this one and that one will put the Lord first, but not this other one? What answer do we give HIm now? What we will answer Him on that Day?
PRAY for Josh Harris and all these brothers. They have only a short time during which their costly testimony will win His eternal approval. And I say that not knowing what that testimony should be, ultimately. Their elder Brother will tell them that, not us, whatever falls out with our guesses.
March 1st, 2012 at 9:46 pm
Sidney,
as of today, CLC has not made any changes to their giving to SGM. I suspect this will be the next big announcement. The committee formed (of members) to evaluate this and give recommendations have sent their recommendation to the elders (I hear). Stay tuned.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:19 pm
Epaphras: Thank you for articulating so much of what I haven’t been able to. :) :goodpost
MAK: I am hoping and praying…I KNOW the pastors can take the stands they need to. Waiting in order to make sure they lose as few members as possible isn’t a reason for a church to flounder IMO.
Sidney
March 1st, 2012 at 10:29 pm
I have a question for recently departed or current SGM members.
Recently i have been hearing and reading different blogs of people that sgm promotes and a term that i don’t really understand has been coming up over and over again.
” True Believer ”
I don’t really understand because I do not know the way that alot of these people are using this term. Any help would be nice thanx.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:38 pm
“CLC alone gives SGM almost $1,000,000 in franchise fees/year out of the $3,000,000 and change/year that SGM gets in franchise fees from all 95 of its franchise churches.” :scratch :scratch
What do they do with 3 million dollars besides pay CJ and a few other staffers and heat the building? Was it Kerrin who told us they have seven figure investments? Are they helping out new struggling churches? Three million? Airplane tickets? I wonder how much AoR costs.
How can anybody tithe to CLC knowing a million bucks goes to headquarters?
Isn’t CJ rich? Rich enough to move wherever he wants? If you can give a daughter a free house worth half a million and give your buddy Al 100 grand, don’t you need to be loaded? Or is he giving away everything he has and just trusting the Lord? (uh huh).
Epaphras, nice post. Thanks.
March 1st, 2012 at 10:54 pm
Joe 281
As a member for over 30 years, I don’t remember hearing anyone use the term ‘true believer’. What way do they use it?
Kris 263
Excellent post. If you haven’t visited other churches in the area, it is impossible to know what they are like. Over the years, I have gotten to know lots of members in other churches in the area and we have also visited some too and I can say there are definitely healthier churches than CLC in the area.
Brokenhearted 224
Kris doesn’t need my affirmation but I think she might just ‘believe the best’ to a higher degree than most others who comment here :) Part of the reason for that is she was a member such a short amount of time and some of the stuff we talk about here is kind of hard to swallow!
March 1st, 2012 at 11:31 pm
Josh is trying to do the right thing. What is the right thing? I don’t think Josh or anyone else knows right now.
Many people have stopped giving to the church because they can’t stand the thought of their tithe going to the likes of SGM and CJ/Harvey. They know some percentage goes to SGM and they won’t have any of their money going to SGM for they believe is support for CJ’s poor behavior and Harvey’s deceit. Mixed in with them are those people who would like to cut SGM off but right now there is no way to do that so they have reduced their giving slightly to CLC hoping less will go to SGM.
But there is also a second group people at CLC who despise Harvey BUT they are friends with the regular church people that work for SGM. All of SGM employees attend CLC so they would certainly be cutting jobs from their friends if they stopped giving. They would hate to see their friends cut off from their livelihood on short notice. (A couple of churches that weren’t happy with SGM sent a letter to Harvey telling him the funds would stop at the end of 2011. That was to give Harvey AND the people and idea that the money train is taking a different track and to make appropriate plans. Several people have left the employ of SGM. Some may be because they detest what Harvey and Cj are doing, some because they see the writing on the wall and need to get out while they can get out safely with some modicum of control.)
There is a third group at CLC that says they hate what CJ/Harvey have done but that CLC entered into an agreement and they should uphold the agreement. That it is an integrity thing for CLC, despite what CJ/Harvey are doing.
Yet another group (fourth) says it is God’s money and once they give it they don’t have any control over how it is used and that if God is not happy with what SGM is doing He will make that known and change the circumstances.
I don’t know how to explain the (fifth) small splinter group but they are not happy with the way SGM is doing things and they think CLC should reduce the amount of money but not stop it completely. The 5% or 3% payment group, for lack of a better term.
A sixth group doesn’t care. They are not into politics or disagreements and they give to CLC and don’t care what happens after that. They feel they have given their tithe and it is not up to them how it is used for God’s work.
And lastly you have a seventh group that loves CJ/Harvey/Kauflin and SGM and want them to continue the way things have always been and to receive the funding they have always received.
So, if you were Josh how would you address all these groups? If you were a senior pastor how would you direct your church through this issue in an attempt to honor and recognize the opinions of all the people in your church? How would you explain that the difficult part is not continuing or halting the flow of money but giving a right and biblical justification for doing so. Many of the groups have legitimate reasoning for their stance.
How would YOU LEAD? This is the challenge for Josh. Shutting down the money spigot is easy. Holding the church together by getting everyone to understand why the Pastors are going to move in a certain direction and have the people trust them enough to be willing to follow is where leaders distinguish themselves.
My eyes are on Josh. I am expecting to see a leader step up.
March 1st, 2012 at 11:39 pm
Just got our church budget in the mail. Right there on the top of the third page is the pastor’s salary. I’m thrilled that he gets paid well for what he does, and I’m also excited to be in a church that’s willing to share that information with me.
And Joe, prior to this I’d been involved in SGM for over a decade (and CLC for the past five years), and I can’t remember anyone using that phrase, either. So it certainly doesn’t seem like it’s a systemic thing.
March 1st, 2012 at 11:53 pm
IntheNick…please take your eyes off Josh and put them on Jesus. (If you have to look to man to lead you, then put them on ALL of your pastors and not just one of them. That’s exactly what got CLC/SGM in the mess it’s in right now).
I have a perfect solution. CLC stops all tithe to SGM. CLC notifies all of the members that they are no longer sending a portion of tithe to SGM. They tell the people of CLC that 10% USED to go to SGM and that if they would like to continue giving some portion of their tithe to support SGM, they should reduce their CLC tithe and give it to SGM. This includes the pastors of CLC. If they want to support SGM, they also should. That way, the 10%ers can give 10% and the 5%ers can give 5% and the 3%ers can give 3% and the ZERO folks can give zero.
And as for commitments. I don’t see that SGM has upheld any of their commitments to CLC. This has been admitted publicly by many…Brian Chesemore, the SGM board, the CLC pastors etc…all have said that for several years, CLC and SGM have become further and further apart in how they want things to be.
Sidney
March 1st, 2012 at 11:54 pm
I imagine what they could do is have a small office set up in MD so they are “officially” headquartered in MD but have most of the operation in KY. A lot of companies are set up like this.
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:19 am
Steve 240
To retain or save the organization, I imagine CJ could do what he did after he said good-bye to Larry: change the name again. And, I can imagine CLC releasing him to do so. They may have already done so.
I can also imagine two things CLC pastors could do to buy back some of the trust of at least some of the people: start telling them the WHOLE truth and start including them in the WHOLE solution.
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:29 am
Persona: this bears repeating:
“I can also imagine two things CLC pastors could do to buy back some of the trust of at least some of the people: start telling them the WHOLE truth and start including them in the WHOLE solution.”
(Sorry. I have no idea how to blockquote from my phone)
Sid
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:53 am
Kris -- #263 — and other comments regarding the way we look at other churches --
Funny that this topic came up today. Yesterday, I drove several hundred miles and passed church after church; big ones, little ones, reformed ones, pentecostal ones, mainline denominationals — you name it. And instead of disdaining them, as I did back when I was entrenched in the SGM mindset, I found myself delighting in their existence, thanking God for them, wondering about their ministries, their health, and praying for them. And I was filled with wonder that so many people over so many years attended those places, gave money to erect those buildings, and READ AND HEARD THE WORD OF GOD in those places and came to salvation. And not once did I judge if they knew how to show passion in worship, or if they sang newly-crafted songs of ‘sound doctrine’ rather than the same old seven-eleven songs (seven words,sung eleven times), uptown hymns, downhome hymns, or if they dressed in suits or if they came in jeans. I rejoiced that they were there.
And I felt more connected to the invisible CHURCH than I have in many years.
Sure, I still care about theology, about being true to the Word, about being faithful to doctrine — but it occurred to me that the next time I walk into an unfamiliar church, I’ll be more concerned about the people who need the love of Christ, who need the Word of God, who need the fellowship of believers; and less concerned about their methods of music, their rules for caregroups, and their affiliations with celebrity pastors.
March 2nd, 2012 at 1:19 am
Exactly Steve.
Kentucky, or any other state would be a branch, remote office, whatever you like to call it. If I was them, I would have my Executive/Administrative office in MD, but place my distribution, publications, and theological training in another state where square footage is cheap. Warehousing in Montgomery County is just nuts financially.
Louisville is only an hour and a half away from Nashville, so that makes the music end easier as most of the SGM music recording happens there anyway.
Cost of living is much less as well. Those ‘sacrificial’ SGM salaries would go a lot further in Kentucky.
The MD office would need not be any larger than a closet size office with a phone line.
One admin to take calls and open mail should complete the requirement.
The bonus there would be that one could travel back and fourth between both offices at their own discretion. The fact that CJ would have family & friends at both locations makes no difference legally as the travel could always be work related.
(When the Friends are Al Mohler and the loyal new SGM Board, any “appearance” of
travel misuse should be easily dismissed.)
The State of Kentucky, as of last night, has no new filings in regard to SGM, CJ, or any other of the CJ loyalist that typically file with him, or on SGM’s behalf.
That is not to say that they have to file though. CJ could simply rent an office, and have the Kentucky site be whatever he wants to call it. Whether it is the Headquarters in name, deed, or in CJ’s head, the core business can stay in MD. The board gets to define what the core of SGM is anyway.
CJ aside, relocating there makes good operational and fiscal sense once CLC is no longer part of the equation. If this move is in the works, I have no doubt it will be sold to the membership as such.
CJ “turning tail and running” well that’s just a bunch of naysayers opinion.
Oh and Brent,
Josh resigned, and as far as we know, CLC elected not to place someone,
or nominate someone with the new board. SGM just needs to file an amendment, stating the reasons for the change, and all should be well. This could all be done by March 6th along side a new polity statement that re-defines the organization.
The State of Maryland is not going to even blink. It is a Church/religious matter once the new theology/polity becomes part and parcel of the amendments to the Boards
structure and operation.
You should know this, you guys hid behind it for years.
March 2nd, 2012 at 1:44 am
Unassimilated # 291, your points to Brent were dead on. :goodpost
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:43 am
Another Joe,
From what I can discern, the SGM I attend thinks that a “true believer” is someone who lines up with most, if not all, of what Reformed theology says it is, especially the SGM brand of it. While I see much good in most of the basics of Reformed theology, I also see heresy, arrogance, hypocrisy and bigotry. Wish I had done more research before stumbling in. God’s word is often not taken as God’s word, or huge portions of it are swept to the side in favor of presenting Christianity from a Reformed perspective. Sadly, this is so common in many Christian denominations. To me, a true believer is someone who understands that Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh, and has put their hope and trust in Him as the only Savior for mankind, because of what He did for us by dying in our place and raising from the dead. I’m a Christian, not Reformed or Arminian, and I’m a part of the whole body of Christ, with Him as the head.
March 2nd, 2012 at 6:58 am
@Another Joe,
I think the use of this phrase, “True Believer,” is done to differentiate themselves from the other sort of believer (i.e., one who doesn’t agree with their theology, ecclesiology, or what I would say is bibliolatry; an excessive adherence to inherency). Like what 2+2=4 again said, it’s when used in that context that it’s about “Reformed” theology (Neo-Calvinism), but I would add it shows a degree of elitism, self-aggrandisement, arrogance, etc. This is wrapped up in fanaticism and the way they view themselves as a group: there is no other believer who is as true as we are, everybody else who claims to be a believer is inferior in their devotion, we are the best, the only true believers.
It’s condescending to other people(s) of faith and even different versions of Christianity.
Ironically, in a book titled The True Believer Eric Hoffer talks about the sociological forces behind the formation of “mass movements” and fanaticism.
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:02 am
Thanks for all of your answers, when i saw it on a couple of blogs like 9 marks and John piper web site. It made me curious, I wasnt trying to start something i just really wanted to know why people seem to be using it more and more.
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:15 am
According to SGM’s financial statements, they charge interest on the loans they give to churches (see page 12). I guess you could say that that is very “interesting”. :clap I don’t think I could ever make a fellow Christian pay a loan back with interest.
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:28 am
I don’t know that I have heard the phrase “true believer” bandied about among SGMers. But I have picked up on the concept that there can be debate about whether or not someone is “truly saved.” They may use that phrase or put it in a slightly different way, but the idea is that while we may pay lip service to the notion of “salvation through faith by grace alone,” there’s gotta be some proof before an individual can get his church’s stamp of approval, particularly when it comes to the question of baptism.
In recent years, CLC led the push toward tightening up requirements for baptizing children. I don’t know if it’s still there, but on CLC’s website, there used to be a document entitled something like Questions and Answers For Parents About Baptizing Children. In that document (which, interestingly enough, rather closely mirrored the policy in place at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist, where CJ escaped last summer), there was a strong sense of caution about baptizing kids, with the clear implication that CLC was afraid they might end up giving kids a false sense of salvation or something.
If a child approaches his parents and expresses his faith in Christ and a desire to be baptized, his parents are to sort of put the brakes on that idea and go through some sort of waiting period, during which they look for fruit. It’s been awhile since I read the Q&A document, but I seem to recall statements to the effect that we can’t really know for sure that a kid is “truly saved” (they might have used another phrase, but that’s what I remember) until the kid has been out of the house and away from his parents’ supervision for awhile…like maybe baptism should be delayed till the kid is out on his own, or at the very earliest, happen when the kid is in his mid-teens.
Along those same lines, I have heard from people who were told by their SGM pastors (not just CLC pastors, but guys at other SGM churches) that they might consider being baptized again, because when they were baptized the first time around, they might not have been “really saved” -- since after those original baptisms, they went on to commit sins that the pastors considered particularly bad. One person reported being told that if he had truly been saved, he “wouldn’t have sinned like that.” Hence the need for re-baptism.
I know the Bible shows us both sides of this equation. Much in the Pauline epistles would tell us that we do nothing for our salvation. On the other hand, James says, “Faith without works is dead.” I would agree with any SGMer who says, logically, that someone who has come to a saving faith in Jesus will bear fruit and will have, in some way, shape, or form, a changed life.
But with their baptism policy, I think SGM veered into very dangerous territory, particularly given the church’s tight culture and the hyper-control that parents were taught to exert over their children’s lives. (I mean, come on -- it’s been more than 10 years since teens were trusted to attend youth group without parental supervision. SGMers have also somehow absorbed the idea that it is more virtuous for college-age young adults, particularly young women, to live at home until marriage. So where in the world would a young person ever get an opportunity to demonstrate beyond a doubt that he is “really, truly saved” apart from parental influence?)
This belief -- that pastors have some sort of special authority to question and affirm or deny whether someone is “really, truly saved” -- shows itself in other ways, too, in the SGM mindset. SGM pastors have been disturbingly quick to take to heart the directive to treat out-of-favor members “like unbelievers.” Look at what Mickey Connolly said about Brent D just this past summer. That was one high-profile situation, but there have been many, many others throughout SGM’s history.
I mentioned this above, but you can also see the mentality at work in the logic presented in CJ’s book, Why Small Groups? That book is, I believe, still available as a free download. If you are curious about the SGM mentality, I would encourage you to read Why Small Groups? Because it was written in the days when SGM/PDI was never questioned or criticized, or even scrutinized much, CJ and the other CLC pastors who helped him write the book are a little more blatant in what they say, a little more open and honest about what they really think. They lay out a case that goes something like this:
1. We are saved by grace alone.
2. BUT, if we are actually saved, we will exhibit sanctification in our lives.
3. Sanctification can only happen within the context of true Christian fellowship.
4. Christian fellowship only takes place when Christians engage in certain very specific behaviors -- which must include confessing our sins to one another and confronting one another about the sins we see in each other.
By the time you reach point #4, the logical conclusion (although it’s not actually stated in so many words) clearly becomes, You are only truly saved when you participate in small groups the way that our churches do small groups.
All of this is to say, I think there is absolutely no question that the reality of life as an SGM member means that one’s salvation -- the question of whether one is “really and truly saved,” and not just saying the right words -- is dependent upon how well one meets certain standards of performance. Over the years (particularly since “the blogs” started calling attention to this issue), PDI/SGM has become much less plainspoken and overt about what those performance standards are. But there was a time, not very long ago, when SGM taught that people who were “truly saved” would…
1) Participate in SGM-style small groups.
2) Would never disagree with their pastor’s assessment of their sin.
3) Would homeschool their children (or -- inferior second choice -- enroll them in the church-sponsored Christian school).
4) Would find their mate through courtship.
5) Would be very careful about modesty.
6) Would have “date night” (if you were married).
7) Would not have junk out on your kitchen countertops.
8 ) Would say things like, “I’m doing better than I deserve” and “I’m am the worst sinner I know.”
9) Would never leave your “local” church for any reason.
What other marks of the “truly saved” SGMer am I missing?
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:08 am
Unassimilated,
Spot on!
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:30 am
I have only occasionally visited any church in the 20+ years since I left CLC. I will admit, there were even times when I avoided God altogether, for whatever reason-none are worthwhile, all are lies. But, God, in His Faithfulness and Everlasting Love, was patiently waiting for me to look to Him for strength and healing. It is a long arduous path that I am still walking upon. At times, I have desired to regularly attend a church, so I would begin to visit some. I would be deterred from continuing either because no one spoke to me, or because they were too friendly, or the speaker said something during his sermon I thought critically of. I have found that it is not just the arrogant sin sniffing we learned at SGM we battle, but it is also distrust grown from the pain of deception we battle as well. It is hard to trust our own judgment, as well as wanting to scrutinize others, hoping to not be so easily duped again. And then, we also have to deal with the regular prejudices that being human leave us susceptible to as well; “You can’t possibly be ‘saved’ unless you have been immersed in water’, or ‘are sanctified only through attending a small group church’, or WHATEVER we want to think makes us more favored in God’s eyes. That is the same ‘human nature’ that tempts white people to think they are better than black people, or men to think they are better than women, or Peruvians to think they are better than Salvadorians, hearing people to think they are better than deaf-the ‘list’ of such lies is endless! I am not claiming to have all the answers either, but where I have come to so far is this; I am beginning to consider a church once again, and I want to look for a church like I do a pediatrician: I may not agree with everything they say, or want to do, but if they are comfortable with my differences, and allow me to follow my conscience without trying to judge me or control me, then I think we will make a good fit. (Obviously, I am meaning within the framework of John 3:16, not way off base from very basic doctrine. It seems to me the rest is almost like pronouncing potato or potato, except I dont know how to type long and short vowel sound-but you get my point)
I would be interested in others input on this, as I am still trying to discern my path also, and it seems to help me to have input from others.
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:16 am
Kris, off the top of my head, I would add to your list:
- practice male leadership and female subservience in all aspects of life
- tithe to local church
- worship with hands in the air and dancing around
You are right, the references to the “are they saved” question are oblique. I don’t remember hearing that those not practicing those things were not saved, but rather they were “missing out on God’s best for them,” or something like that. In other words, they were compromising and letting God down. Which brings you back to the question, “are they saved?”
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:41 am
@ Kerrin- That is a good description of what a few of us were trying to communicate to Dutch Reformed. CLC/SGM has certainly hammered in throughout the years that being a true believer meant x,y and z in regards to behavior. And no other church in the area was as serious in their “mortification of sin”. So the relationships with other churches became non existent until recently. So everyone did walk around with an elitist mentality from my view. The extra biblical principles that were basically demanded began to enlighten me when my entire personality basically changed. Before coming to CLC I was extremely burdened to share the gospel to unbelievers. That diminished greatly once I realized I wasn’t going to find others at CLC that shared this burden. I honestly think it had to do with me being a women why others didn’t seem to support this endeavor. Unfortunately, I found CLC to be extremely “inward focused” in that regard. I was very outspoken, didn’t really concern myself with what others thought until I got the silent stares in CareGroup (Kerrin maybe you can relate?). Anyway- these are a couple examples as to why I began to think something was “off”. I hadn’t been a fearful person in the past and now I was worrying for days, thinking something I said in CG had offended someone or that I wasn’t spiritually up to their “level”. It really was all so pathetic. God is redeeming it and showing me a lot about myself so it isn’t for nothing. Can anyone relate?
Kerrin- I have visiting Arlington a couple of times in the past 6 months. Mostly to visit some old friends- I won’t be attending there permanently. People seem genuine, the church seems different from other SGM churches I have encountered, Eric seems to have a love for the community. What were your concerns with Arlington?
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:27 am
I was taken in by the over-friendliness and false humility, and thanks for sharing that, ExClcer’s Mom. Thanks, Izze and Kris and griefofwisdom. I think CJ going to Solid Rock right now has something to do with the smoke and mirrors ploy, and not in any way, acceptance of other denominations. Add to the list; no evangelism, that is only done from the pulpit, no Bible study, no Sunday school, just read this or that book. And someone in another website which questions SGM brought up the point that faith is not the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit for a believer, Love is. Yes, Christians can be recognized by their love, it is God’s love, for them and through them, which can’t be disguised. Tactics can be disguised for awhile. I think we are definitely looking at a cult, and now that the false teaching has been extrapolated and believed to be absolute truth for decades, instead of relying on God’s words and the Holy Spirit’s work in us instead of our own, we’re seeing the consequences. Are these people “true believers”? I think most of them certainly are, but I see faith getting shipwrecked along with it, marriages strained, wives and children abused, people in general experiencing and displaying what ExClcer’s Mom mentioned. I’m definitely a conservative evangelical, but I think many non-denominational churches know some important truths which have been missed by denominational thinking, one being the priesthood of all believers. We have been set free and are being set free by faith, hope and love of Christ, and should not be going back into bondage. Christ is not really exalted at SGMs imo,compared to their idea of pure doctrine and the performance of it, er, the appearance of performance, er, “good fruit”.
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:58 am
And really, in the very early days of GOB, I think they were much more pure and innocent in their beliefs. I can remember Larry T speaking about how Christians should be known by their love, and how we could be evangelical in our lives, how ‘non-believers’ would see us loving each other, and desire to be part and be loved with the Love of Christ through His believers. I recently heard reference to a book called “The Trouble with Wine skins”, and I remembered Larry talking about that! In the very early days, there was no stage, but rather anyone could stand up and share what they felt God spoke to them that week. When the group grew to large (which it quickly did), they would divide, to try to keep it personal, and allow for people to share. I’m not saying it was all perfect then, either, but it was nothing like this mega church-deal with full of sin sniffing and money hungry group they seem to have now. It became terribly corrupted along the way, and is now nothing at all like it began. If I had not witnessed the progression, I would never be able to connect the two!
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:03 pm
I should mention that Larry spoke of evangelizing unbelievers not simply by them witnessing us loving each other, but also by us loving them-serving them in practical ways, helping to meet their needs. I truly believe in the ways of evangelism they spoke of in the early days. Don’t just hand out a tract, or preach a sermon, but practically help meet their needs, and most of all, love them-appreciate their differences, and see their worth in God’s eyes, not the eyes of the world. I learned a lot in those early days.
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:06 pm
Izze #301.
I can relate. When I first started attending my care group, I can remember the ease I had at that time in opening up about my past, my sin, my struggles, etc. I really didn’t fear what people thought of all that because I knew that God had forgiven me, taken my shame and was remaking me. But it was interesting how certain people would make odd comments to me during or after care group about things I had shared about myself. I remember once sharing my testimony and someone prayed for me afterward. Part of what they prayed was about thanking God for protecting me when I was acting out in my life of sin prior to being saved. I remember thinking, yes, God thank you. Then they added a comment of thanking God “for protecting me even when I didn’t want His protection.” What? That pierced my heart. Even though theologically it was true, before I was saved, I was rebelling from God’s protection, in my human experience of life as a child and young adult, I hadn’t even KNOWN that anyone was supposed to protect me because I had grown up in such an abusive family that I had never learned that. One of the most precious things that I learned early on after I was saved was that God was my protector. It is His character to protect and it is a blessing to be His child and receive that protection. Until then, I had no idea that some children grew up protected in their homes and not harmed.
In my opinion, if the person who had prayed for me after my testimony had really listened with their “heart” to my testimony, they would have heard that expressed in my testimony. And they would have heard my remorse as I wept sharing about my past. But yet when they prayed for me, they expressed seemingly no understanding of THIS: God didn’t condemn me for not seeking His protection; my own heart had already condemned me. The Holy Spirit had convicted me of it and God’s kindness had led me to repentance and Jesus had taken my sin and shame. God didn’t cause me to feel shame for my prior unsaved behavior anymore.
For goodness sakes, what a horrible prayer to pray at that moment, in my opinion. The person (someone who was considered more of a leader in my group) seemed to have no understanding of the beautiful balance between justice and mercy that is inherent in God’s character and the balance that we as His children are called to live out in this world for Him. It was an outright perversion of His character and I felt like my heart got ripped out and was left bleeding at my care group leader’s home that night. It took me months to process what had happened that night, but God helped me to see that the person who prayed for me wanted to intimidate me and drag me back into my prior shame. And you know what? They and others succeeded to some extent until God strengthened me and delivered me from SG.
It is because of experiences of spiritual abuse like that, that I speak out here against the perverted theology and intimidation techniques of SG.
God bless you, friend,
Let My People Go
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:27 pm
@LMPG- It’s a terrible thing when our theology gets in the way of loving others the way Jesus loves us. It’s one reason I resolved to realize that yes “doctrine matters” but not nearly as much as I have been taught in SGM. My time in CLC certainly magnified that loving doctrine more than people attitude in me. One friend in particular who I love dearly took the brunt of that from my words. It was almost like being theologically correct was more important than listening and loving her. Words can be so damaging. I’m so sorry that broke you so deeply, and I can relate as condemnation for my before Christ days (and after in some ways) weighed heavily over me during my CLC days and still does to some extent. I’m so sorry you were hurt in that way.
I’m sad to hear about your experience with your family growing up as well. Knowing at least some about the character of God, I can say with certainty that God never intended it to be that way, and it was never your fault. I hope I’m not over stepping here…
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:30 pm
LMPG, AmenandAmenandAmen. God help all those who find themselves attracted to places like SGM. It attracts people who had abused childhoods, it attracts men who are bullies, it attracts the self righteous who are looking for other Pharisees. There is some real good there, but more evil than good, from a birdseyeview, which I didn’t have before.
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:40 pm
@Izze,
It’s good that you were able to recognise a change in your personality. Most people don’t notice that happening and if they do they accept it as a “better” version of themselves.
You asked:
My “concerns” with Arlington had more to do with Eric, his choices (calculating nature), the way he treated my desire to go elsewhere, an unhealthy allegiance to CJ, Bob et al, and an inability or unwillingness to be honest with me. Even now, he does not respond to my questions or acknowledge the specifics that I have brought up about SGM/CLC (one email from 6 months ago and another one I sent two weeks ago have not been responded to in anyway). His “acknowledgement” of certain things seems to lack genuineness, but are more given to try and relate to me so as to win my trust (that’s my opinion/perception of it anyway). Additionally, he does not have any formal training in ministry: he’s learned everything from SGM. As much as he wants to say he’s different, he is still cut from the same cloth, he’s just adapted and adjusted a few perceptual things. Another minor “concern” I had was his decision to bring on Jordan as #2, because the decision was made autonomously despite my objection (at the time I was considered an “Elder”).
My other “concerns” had to do with what I heard people saying about me after I broke ties with Arlington. People there heard things like, “He’s not saved,” “He’s too smart for his own good,” “If he had gone to college he would have understood what he was reading,” etc. I received reports of this from friends who still attended. I know of one couple that left after hearing this stuff (wasn’t the only reason they left, but it was part of it).
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:43 pm
Let My People Go, I so understand what you mean! We all have different personalities as well as different backgrounds, and we all ‘come to Jesus’ in so many different ways, for so many different reasons (although all as our Savior)…Maybe that person had rebelled against God’s Love and protection in their youth, as some do, but you spent your youth crying out for it, not knowing it was even available! Our prayers should be ‘Spirit led”, and not subjective. Thank God for His Faithfulness in protecting you even from people who try to bring you back into any level of shame or intimidation!
March 2nd, 2012 at 12:56 pm
@ Kerrin- I wonder if Eric’s perception has been altered a lot lately based on CJs/SGM charades over the past 6 months? I don’t think they are tithing to SGM right now. Is that normal?
Were you the only one who objected to Jordan being made a pastor? Not that it really matters…
You said “the way he treated my desire to go elsewhere”. This one thing that really irritates me. If I desire to choose to go to a different church and inform my pastor there would be no objection because my last name isn’t tied to a pastor or prominent member. I’m not saying that I would want to be tied to their approval, but it only confirms to me that the “higher ups” are treated so much differently than us “regular folks”. You probably weren’t “released” based on how it makes THEM look as opposed to them actually being genuinely concerned for whatever reasons they may have been concerned for you. Makes me ill. Self preservation runs rampant throughout the leaders of SGM.
March 2nd, 2012 at 1:28 pm
Izze, 2+2, and Excler’s Mom -
Thanks for all of your wisdom and grace and fellowship, friends. I was so in need of it today. Obviously, that prayer was more harmful to me than I thought. Wow, God can really unearth some stuff in our hearts that has to go. I think I definitely got a little freer today. God bless you guys!
Izze -- That balance between love and theology is so important, just like you pointed out. Thanks for pointing out that the prayer had broken me deeply. I had never really thought of that moment as probably the one that did break me most deeply. But it was also probably a defining moment in my life when, in the face of intimidation, I heard God’s voice more loudly than that of man and it was the beginning of the end for my time at SG and in abusive relationships in general. Thanks for sharing your insights so kindly with me. =)
2+2 -- Wow! You described 3 groups of people attracted to SG so well. After I left SG, I could see clearly how God had allowed me to go there and then led me out with a new understanding of myself and where I was capable of straying to if I didn’t understand my past better and how it was influencing my present choices. I agree about the more evil than good. It reminds me of the story of Joseph…what was meant for evil, God used for good.
ExClcer’s Mom -- I think you are right. The person who prayed for me -- I also realized some time later that they were praying from a subjective place reflecting their own life struggle, not mine. Thanks for reminding me of that; it helped me to regain the perspective that I needed today. God HAS been so faithful to keep protecting me and to teach me how to not be a target for abuse.
March 2nd, 2012 at 1:50 pm
LMPG,
Thanks for mentioning Joseph, so true! God uses everything for our good if we’re Christians. I’m praying for opportunities for those who are waffling about leaving or trying to leave abusive situations, to be seen and taken, and for forgiveness, healing and freedom for all, abusers included. They were probably abused at one point, and are acting out in the ways they have learned. May we all know His grace and mercy better.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:24 pm
griefofwisdom in #300 -
I haven’t seen much dancing in the churches in some time. I really don’t understand how they claim to be reformed charismatic. They are really a reformed church with hands raised and a single prophecy mic that is used in most but not all services. That is the extent of the charismatic practice.
Right on with the male leadership and the tithing.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:30 pm
I found this and thought it was interesting. This skit was done in 2004 with both CJ and Brent there. I’m not sure what to think of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5yj2Apinaw
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:31 pm
Exclcersmom,
Thank you for the book reference. I will have to check it out sometime.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:42 pm
This is a digression from our current topics, I apologize. I just stumbled upon this imitation of CJ by Jonathan Rourke, and aside from whatever I think of CJ right now, I think this guy does a great imitation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZOfeeTwVc&feature=related
Again, sorry to be completely off topic.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:42 pm
2+2 in # 304 said, “No Bible Study” in SGM churches. I noticed that too. Our former church has regular bible studies of their own and also hosted Bible Study Fellowship for the men and Kay Arthur and Beth Moore Bible Studies for the ladies. What could be more natural than a church encouraging bible studies?
But in our SGM church there is no such thing as a bible study. Yes, everyone is encouraged to read their bible, ON THEIR OWN, but not communal bible studies are permitted. I really don’t know what SGM and our pastors fear if we studied the bible together.
I believe it is yet another control device. Like the Catholic church when they only used the bible in latin so the people couldn’t read it or use it and everything had to come to the people through the priests. Likewise now, every interpretation has to come through the pastors because no one is permitted to study and interpret (learn) with anyone else. THAT is why there are no bible studie in SGM churches. 2 Tim 3:16 says, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, as long as it is the Pastors overseeing its use.”
NOT!
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:48 pm
2+2 #212
Amen to all that you commented.
I do agree that those who abuse were likely victims of abuse at one point and need to be set free and healed. I continue to pray this for my previous SG pastor and many of my friends that remain at my old church. Abuse is a twisted issue and it is only God that can truly untwist it and heal it on all levels. Years ago God drew my attention to His concern for the abused while studying David and Goliath… where David questions aloud…”What will a man get for killing this Philistine and putting an end to his abuse of Israel?” (NLT) I understand that if I have broken one commandment I have broken them all and I know that my sin is just as ugly as anyone else’s, but I also know that God’s heart is to end abuse and His people must speak out against it. The people on this site have helped me to grow to understand that.
March 2nd, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Yep, whether they think so or not, Reformed began as the Reformed Catholic Church. Why miss out on all that authority the corrupt RCC had for hundreds of years? Many Protestant churches are still following the RCC model in many ways and don’t realize or acknowledge it.
March 2nd, 2012 at 3:08 pm
Epaphras, you are eloquent and accurate, but that’s not why I mentioned Gothard. It was just a coincidence of phrasing that sparked idle speculations of influential overlap. Sorry to confuse.
intheNickoftime, at KWCC there were several groups of ladies who did Beth Moore Bible studies one summer, but they were eventually all shut down, allegedly because she was teaching men in her studio audiences on the DVDs and that was unbiblical. :roll:
March 2nd, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Mattie -- That’s a hoot! I have heard lots of excuses for not including women in something but never before was a picture of a man sitting in on someone else’s class ever been used as a reason to close down a bible study!
My mouth is agape!
:scratch
March 2nd, 2012 at 4:17 pm
Kerrin 308
How does the Kauflin relocation to KY affect your family?
March 2nd, 2012 at 5:48 pm
In regards to bible studies at SGM churches. I have been in “traditional” bible studies at both CLC and another SGM Church. I even led one. The not allowing Bible studies is not something I have seen. Was anyone actually told they cant have one? or is it just the fact that there wasnt more? I will admit there wasnt nearly as many as I have seen in other Churches, which usually have them constantly going on. I am not in an SGM church anymore and our current Church pretty much has them in constant rotation, in some form.
I will echo a earlier comment about the shortage of “good” churches. I have lived in 4 states, as a practicing Christian, and have had a hard time finding a good Church.
March 2nd, 2012 at 5:52 pm
Nickname in #290————Stellar post! How cool that you could drive by a diverse bunch of churches without the old SGM mindset souring your thoughts.
March 2nd, 2012 at 6:20 pm
Nickname, I wanted to thank you for that post, also! I’m thankful I’ve been in other churches. We are all part of His body.
On a more sour note, I’m a little paranoid about posting because I’m still at a SGM, and believe that what I’ve shared so far would get me severely “disciplined”. I call it being a good Berean, and using critical thinking and my own experience as a long term believer, but that’s subjective, in SGM’s thinking, very subjective. Do you all think they have techno wizards out there trying to find out who posters are?
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:05 pm
IN the Nick of Time in #317 said———--
“What could be more natural than a church encouraging bible studies?”
I have brought this up several times to a pastor and others in leadership. Both affirmed me graciously, but that’s it.
I just have to scratch my head and wonder how CLC has been in existence for 30 years without ladies Bible studies. It’s really not rocket science. And as In the Nick of Time said, it is actually unnatural.
What I’ve noticed lately is that CLC women (who have been entrenched in CLC for a long time) don’t have a Biblical literacy that encompasses the WHOLE of Scripture. They may know bits and pieces, and they definitely excell in areas of servitude, husband-pleasing and self-sacrifice.
But if Josh has to do a whole sermon series on Polity 101 (as he is currently doing) and teach the very basics of what an elder does….it shows that somewhere along the line, the congregation might not be as Biblically literate as they might think they are.
I hope I’m not stepping on the toes of fine CLC ladies who really want to please God. But where are the Bible studies that focus on the WHOLE of Scripture?
Thanks, I’ll step down from my soapbox now. You all are very kind and patient with me. :D
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:23 pm
I’m thinking that the lack of small-group Bible studies within SGM churches probably flows out of a couple of things.
One would be -- and I have heard this from several different SGM defenders over the past few years -- that SGM holds to the view that the types of discussions and exchanges that take place in group Bible studies can too easily lead to “unsound doctrine.” A Beth Moore workbook might contain a question about, “How might the Apostle Paul’s letter to the Ephesians change the way you think of relationships?” And SGM leaders/pastors are worried that the ensuing answers to (and discussions of) that question might open the door to incorrect thinking…unless, of course, a pastor (or his wife) were to be right there to guide and control the discussion.
And that brings up the other reason SGM defenders have given for the lack of small-group women’s Bible studies within SGM churches -- the (largely unspoken) belief that women should not learn independent of men and their oversight.
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:36 pm
Yellow 326 Years ago we talked to a pastors wife about forming a kind of ‘support group’ for stay-at-home moms in our small group.(We knew a Bible study idea would not fly with but we thought it would be great if they got together socially) Well, she discouraged the idea by saying emphatically, that the only thing women would do if they got together was gossip and complain. Not sure if she had any concrete evidence of that but, she shot that idea down fast.
CLC did begin experimenting with ‘official’ Bible Studies last year and maybe someone who has participated in them can comment. I believe the prototypes were tried out in the Devries sphere. They are meant to be led by members, not pastors and they are not just for women.
March 2nd, 2012 at 7:41 pm
Yes, YiaHC, it is unnatural for a Christian church to not have them. I’ve been in church for over 30 years prior to SGM. Even the theologically very liberal mainline churches have them. And I think you gave an astute observation about the level of Bible literacy at SGM, for those who have not been exposed to other churches, that is. It is confirmation to me that even in the more evangelical churches, John Piper, Beth Moore and many other authors’ studies are used, rather than simply going to the Bible itself and studying a book at a time together. There’s nothing wrong with outside reading, but there should be Bible studies available. Jesus promised each of us that the Holy Spirit Himself would guide us into all truth, and that His word is truth. Goes back to the priesthood of all believers issue. Are we being socially engineered or equipped for ministry? I need to be transformed into the image of Christ, not a church.
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:07 pm
Persona:
That’s the same thing we were told when the ladies at our franchise wanted to start a bible study -- they were “concerned” that the women would “gossip”.
Idiots. Sounds more like oppression, doesn’t it? Keep ‘em ignorant and uneducated or they might revolt.
The only thing “revolting” is that kind of mentality.
And me being a real big idiot for not running for the door many years ago…
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:10 pm
I can vouch for the “no Bible study” aspect of SGM. Perhaps this is indeed out of concern for sound doctrine. But, it has backfired. People are not learning to study for themselves. I have also noticed at Care Group that there is absolutely no mechanism to teach or correct a person that has questions or floats an “unsound” idea. I am not suggesting that we should be jumping all over a person, but just offer healthy input or correction. New Christians need this.
It is almost as if we all hope the pastor will eventually touch on the subject and we will all be OK. I am very concerned about the lack of serious teaching. My SGM friends are very dependent on SGM and unable to grow on their own.
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:13 pm
Back in the late ’80s when i joined my SGM church, i notice pretty much right away that there were no bible studies… I knew of several church folks who would attend sunday night bible studies at a local baptist church just to get some good word.. Anyway, i of course, talked to leaders about this, and got various vague excuses… which led me to the 1st time i thought this thought: well, no church is perfect” -- and i lied the church otherwise -- for many years, until the Holy Spirt was disfellowshipped…
But isn’t it sad that in a non perfect church, and all churches are, that that is one of the main reasons to feel it is not perfect??? I mean, the more i think about it right now, i feel soooo grieved!!!! It is just so wrong…
And considering that most sunday messages consist of all of one specific scripture, w/ no cross-referencing or anything, and sometimes w/o the greater context of surrounding scripture… well, i did not get a lot of bible teaching during my years there…
Now that i read here, and over the past few years, i can tell that hundreds have shared this concern -- thousands, i bet!! Why are not the pastors addressing this -- The congregants pay the salaries and want to study and learn scripture…. It is just so weird!!!
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:15 pm
sorry, that’s “i ‘liked’ the church otherwise”
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:18 pm
A theme that has been coming up -- the lack of Bible study in SGM franchies.
No Sunday morning Bible study.
No Sunday night Bible study.
No Wednesday night Bible study (or School of the Word)
No Women’s Bible study.
And care group is really nothing more than revisiting the Pastor’s Sunday message and subsequent sin sniffing exercise.
“Well taught” members in SGM? I don’t think so.
Keep ‘em dumb so they can’t discern the truth is more like it.
How can men of integrity allow this to continue?
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:29 pm
To: 326 yellow and 328 persona- I am a member of CLC (20 years)and I would agree with you both. My friend has a bible study out of her home(she is a member as well) and it is so sweet! However , there are not any members from CLC in it as of yet AND a lady from an entire different church heads it up. I personally have even lived in the home of one of the apostolic leaders(along time ago before married) I remember this issue even then and thought of it as VERY CONTROLLING of course. I at the time was not here in Maryland-so this goes way back and across the states. I have never been the type even as a single to “follow ” in everything. I love to respect leaders and be a servant of Christ BUT I never was the type that just followed blindly- I also have been in trouble for this BUT I trusted in the Lord. My sister however was a victim of this female leader thing.She is very gifted and wanted to serve and was asked to run the bookstore but after she organized it and set it all up she was asked to “step down ” because she was a women- this is true……………. she left the church and still to this day she has not come back but SGM is not the only kind of church that matters. She is happy now and serves in the same capacity in another church. Anyway -- we are moving on and with eyes wide open and the best thing is that we are trusting JESUS and not a legalistic MAN. PRAISE GOD that the TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!!
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:33 pm
Glad Im Out -- what do you think “care groups” should be?
just wondering…………….I would love to hear your thoughts:)
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Persona 322:
Has it been confirmed that the Kauflins are definitely moving to KY?
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Roadwork I would agree- My question though is why the heck is everything and everyone worried about gossip?????????its over kill!
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:37 pm
I should have asked before, but please pray for me and my family to get out of SGM immediately, and for it to be in a loving, respectful, God honoring way, which causes no hard feelings between anyone. Thank you!!!!!
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:46 pm
TO Kerrin 308
Is it true that you were in some kind of “Yoga” classes and then went more “holistic”? This is what I heard…………..you said that they were saying that you were not saved- did this have to do with anything about the “Yoga”? I know that sounds strange but that is really what I was told. My a source that you know well.
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:48 pm
A while back — and I recall that Kris linked to this — CrossWay Community put out its own guidelines for doing Bible studies in small groups. The link is still active and can be found here: http://www.crosswaync.org/docs/Bible_Study_Guidelines.pdf
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:49 pm
337- SGM supposedly is relocating to KY and this would mean that all of the staff will follow. It is true.
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:52 pm
CORRECTION to my post 342- it is not supposedly it really is true that they will all go to KY. -I will be holding the door open for them :) it has been a painful season and very exhausting so it will be good to move on!
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:54 pm
CLC is open to bible studies: http://www.covlife.org/onetoone
March 2nd, 2012 at 8:56 pm
Wow, Kris, I am still thinking of what people have said about why no Bible study at SGM. I don’t know if i was just oblivious or not, though DO remember discussing Scripture and insights with women, though I dont think it was officially labeled a “Bible Study”. Call me naive, but I still dont understand how anyone can say that reading the Bible and praying will lead to unsound doctrine! I mean that sounds about as close to hogwash as anything could possibly get!! I can’t really even fathom how anyone could accept that as an answer!!
Or, what someone else said, that women would simply get together and gossip? Okay, so what, are women banned from getting together, or do they only think women would be gossiping if it were a Bible study? It just doesn’t make sense at all-not one little bit!
I suppose that is yet another example where I am so unsubmissive. I would be arguing that with them all! :spin
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:05 pm
The Truth:
So does that include Gary R.? Who else is going? When is all of this supposed to take place?
I just feel so bad for the support staff. I have a friend whose husband is on the SGM staff and I know this has got to be very hard for them.
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:16 pm
The “No women’s Bible study” thing -- kind of odd that such manly men are so afraid of women.
Maybe they’re still holding unforgiveness towards Eve.
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:21 pm
Izze said in #310,
“Self preservation runs rampant throughout the leaders of SGM.”
Precisely, and their history shows that THAT is what SGM leaders do best.
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:26 pm
In the mid-nineties, I had a friend at my SGM/PDI church that started a bible study in her home. It was open to any ladies in the church that wanted to come. She had led studies in her previous church and saw a need for it in the then PDI church and wanted to serve the ladies. It was highly discouraged by the leadership. I always felt that they perceived it as a threat. They were very concerned about G&S as well as faulty doctrine. A couple of years later, the church decided to have ladies classes. Things like cooking, scrapbooking and stamping were allowed, but when I asked if my older and wiser roomate, who knew her bible inside and out, could teach us how to study the bible for ourselves, it was denied.
Bible study has been a hard discipline for me to cultivate, and I think it is partly because of the culture in SGM that suggested that women need men to teach them how to interpret the Word. Oh, we could do book studies, but it seemed that anything more was too heady or “dangerous”. :scratch
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:30 pm
The funny thing is, I can actually sort of sympathize with SGM pastors’ concerns about the “unsound doctrine” that can float around sometimes when groups get together to do discussion-type Bible studies.
I have been in small-group Bible studies pretty much my entire adult life. And I have to say, I have been amazed at some of the crazy stuff that comes up during Bible study discussions…crazy stuff that is frequently allowed to just stay floating out there without any refutation or other guidance from the leader. There’s sometimes this feeling that everything gets a little too subjective…where the “What do you feel this passage is saying?” questions devolve into everyone’s random personal impressions…some of which are in direct conflict with scripture.
I’ve had to literally force myself sometimes to shut up, to sit back and just let the errors go by unremarked. And I’m just a participant (and a woman, at that). If I were a pastor who took my responsibilities seriously, I would have my concerns about this kind of dynamic.
That being said, though -- well, what’s interesting about the Bible studies I’ve been in is, eventually, the errors do get corrected. For the most part.
So while I can understand a pastor’s trepidation, I’d say that the “sound doctrine” concerns might have more to do with fear and a loss of control.
But the Holy Spirit can be trusted.
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Ozymandias:
Thanks for the Crossway link.
Now that’s we’re out, I can see that doc for what it really is -- control over every aspect of your life including how to study, rules for study and an “approved” list of resources.
If you don’t follow the rules, then well, “No soup for you!”
They can keep their soup.
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:40 pm
Hey 2+2=4———-I’ll pray for you! You can pray the exact same thing for me!
ExCLCers Mom——--I can tell God is working in your heart and someday--when the time is right—you’ll find a decent enough church to call your own. You do quite a lot of ministry around here, I must say!
and since I’m in such an encouraging mood… :D
Yentyl———-stick around here a while. There is a lot of edification and good-natured banter that goes on here! You have drunk enough koolaid :koolaid and folks would love to hear your stories of the ‘old days’.
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:52 pm
I guess I can kind of see your point, except that it just seems to me that studying God’s could never be really harmful to anyone who is desiring to grow close to God! I mean, it’s okay to get together to learn cooking, but not study God’s word? These women can be trusted to learn to cook, and follow a recipe without too much gossip, but they cannot encourage each other in God’s Word on a regular basis without fear of gossip? Aren’t we really supposed to speak of God’s word, and deeds when we walk, talk, sit, lie down..basically always? So, exactly how different is Bible study? Reading God’s Word, The Bible, discussing it’s practical application in our lives, and how God has manifested that in our lives..isn’t that what we are supposed to do always? So, what ‘defines’ a “Bible Study” that becomes prohibitive without a man’s oversight? I think that is just plain crazy!! That women can be approved to get together, as long as they do not ‘officially’ study the Word of God..doesn’t that sound like KGB in Russia, or China, or something? :scratch
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:52 pm
Kris #350:
In my 74 years of traveling around the world I have seen/heard some pretty amazing and flaky theologcial stuff from across the pulpit spoken by individuals who were SUPPOSED to have been well schooled in all things Christian. A seminary degree and a pastoral license does not necessarily make for an expositor of sound doctrine. Babes should be asking questions and listening, not teaching. That goes for babes who find themselves behind a pulpit somewhere. There are no instant knowledge, wisdom, and understanding pills available.
Of course the Holy Spirit can change that equation, but one has to be responsive to Him for that to happen.
:beat
March 2nd, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Kris 350
I agree with all you said.
The pastors do seem hard-wired to retain full control; to make sure everyone in their organization agree with their interpretation of every scripture.
But think about it: what on earth makes THEIR interpretation of the minor doctrines better than anyone else? If the pastors can all agree on the essentials with the Reformed Big Dogs, why can’t they be happy to agree on those same essentials with the little doggies in their churches, so long as they all agree on the same definition of the Gospel?
March 2nd, 2012 at 10:00 pm
Yellow, thank you for the encouraging words! I do believe God is helping me come to a point where I can accept a new Church, and be edifying to them in return. And, you know what I really appreciate? God has been doing this for years! He knows..He speaks a little here, and lets me deal with it..He then shows me something there, and lets me deal with it..then, He will show me yet something else, and be patient while I wrestle, ponder, and come to terms..He is so much more patient than human beings are! His steadfast love and patience gives me more security than I could find anywhere ever! :All-I-See-is-Love:
March 2nd, 2012 at 10:15 pm
2+2 said, ” Do you all think they have techno wizards out there trying to find out who posters are?”
Yes, there are most definately folks here trying to find out who posters are but wizards to worry about, no. I know it seems really scary right now for you because you are still inside the walls but once you grab the courage to break free, you WILL breathe the free air. There is something wonderful about getting out and suddenly knowing you are closer to God by simply being less distracted with all the antics and spin talk. I am praying for you this evening and know that God will give you a brave heart to do the right thing for you and your family. Oh, and as long as you don’t tell Brent who you are, nobody will find out!
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:05 pm
Been a while since I’ve been here folks, but I just couldn’t resist this.
Sung to the tune of the epic Frank Sinatra song “I Did it My Way”
Ode to C.J.
And now the end is near
And so I face the final sermon
My friends I’ll say it clear
I’ll state my case of which I’M certain
I’ve lived a life with loads of perqs
I traveled each and every highway
And more, much more than this
Expensed it MY way
Regrets, I’ve not a one
I am the head, of this great family
I did what I had to do
How dare you even ask me
I planned each Pastor’s life
Each sordid step along the byway
And more, much more than this
I trashed him MY way
Yes there were times I’m sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all I had no doubt
I crushed each man and spit him out, I faced it all
But I stood tall and did it MY way
I’ve loved, I’ve laughed and cried
I’ve had my fill, of whining sheeple
But now, as tithes dry up
I must admit they’re so ungrateful
To think I did all that
And may I say not in a shy way
Oh no, oh no, not ME
I did it MY way
For what is a man what has he got
If not himself then he has not
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I gave the blows
And did it MY way
Yes it was SGM way
(My most sincere apologies to Frank)
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:10 pm
SMP #357, that cracked me up! In all fairness, though, I should add that if Brent identifies you without your consent, you’ll be amazed at how many people will contact you from all over the country to offer their encouragement. You might even be surprised to learn that many of those folks have been waiting to find that someone they know understands what they’ve been through. And, if you own a business, it just might get a big ol’ boost from the free publicity. I’m not condoning what Brent did to me in at all, but with every new phone call (and they’re still coming in), I just marvel at how God really does can use everything for His good. Even Brent’s tirades.
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:30 pm
There are some geeks out there that spend a lot of time trying to figure out who we (Kris and Guy) are. I hear they’re headed to [edited] soon to confront us….
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:37 pm
Thanks, Yellow! I’ll be praying! Thanks, to you, too, SMP!
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:53 pm
Deleted -
Your song lyrics are a hoot.
Sad, but funny.
March 2nd, 2012 at 11:59 pm
The Truth, # 336
“Glad Im Out – what do you think “care groups” should be?
just wondering…………….I would love to hear your thoughts:)”
Funny you should ask, as i did not mention care-groups…. But that is where i started, when i asked leaders why we do not crack the bible…
Well, at mu CGs, we did crack the bible, but only during worship… to exhort… and that was good, and encouraged…
But… WE NEVER STUDIED THE BIBLE!!!! PERIOD!!! -- and this even dates back to before we just discussed the previous sunday morning message -- back then we were going thru approved books…
What i think a caregroup should look like, if that is what you asked… YES, it should involve intensive bible study -- that is truly what EVERYBODY wants, whether they will admit it or not.,…
No one wants to just discuss the very dry (IMO) message from sunday where only one brief scripture, often taken out of context, was discussed…
EVERYONE wants to dig into scripture and to truly understand it -- they are dry and thirsty… some of the more “faithful to the SGM way” will deny it, but i know otherwise… I think you do too… Afterall, we all Thirst for God’s word once we are saved… We do not just want to discuss these dry, intellectual, messages that prach, primarily, our indwelling sin -- this DOES NOT SET US FREE, and we know it….
Last Caregroup i was in discussed a message brought that previous sunday where the main point was this:
“Our good works are a strong indicator for our preparation for judgement day”
Sorry, but this is just BLATANT HERESY…..!!!! AND I CAN PROVE IT FROM SCRIPTURE !! so can you…!!!! anybody can…
Anyway, i spoke up, and i was definitely the pink elephant in the room….
TRUE BIBLE STUDY and a TRUE undertstanding of scripture, would have prevented this….
CAREGROUPS ARE LOST IN SGM, because the leaders are following the pastor’s directives…… THE BIBLE IS LOST IN SGM, HAS BEEN FOR YEARS….
i think i know how CGs can find their way back, if only the pastors would agree!!!
READ THE BIBLE, not just one little scripture each sunday in some intellectual outline -- PREACH!!! TEACH!!! and allow others to do so also…
March 3rd, 2012 at 12:03 am
Kris in #350 -- That is why a group would use BSF. They dont allow people to go off into la-la land and they dont support any one interpretation from the members. Most of the nationally known studies aren’t really open discussion studies. You get the discussion types when churches do their own studies. Nationally known studies are too respectful of the time it takes to do bible study well, so they keep everyone’s nose in the book.
BR in #354 -- I have not been to seminary. But people I know that have tell me seminary is about eliminating all those pre-conceived notions about what you thought! Seminary is about clearing out old understandings and putting in new ones. This is precisely the reason SGM does Pastor’s College instead of seminary. If SGM guys did seminary instead of PC, you would see grace in our churches, you would see sainthood of all believers, you would see bible studies, you would see real outreach, you would see real missions efforts, etc, etc, etc. If our pastors went to seminary they would learn to love people but not to control people. And for SGM it is all about control. (Of course if you learned control in the PC and THEN went to seminary would they be able to get that out of you? Is there hope for CJ’s SiLs?)
March 3rd, 2012 at 12:13 am
Roadwork in #351 --
I just read the CWCC bible study document as well.
What is confounding is all of those things are true. They are all difficulties in understanding the bible, but tell me…
Why do those things not matter when it is you reading and trying to understand scripture by yourself…but when you get two other people to read with you, all of the sudden those things are so overwhelming that it is better not to study the bible at all?
‘splain that to me!
:scratch
March 3rd, 2012 at 3:48 am
On the topic of the threat of bible studies at SGM churches
You can do a bible study, but you have to be willing to fight for it.
You can facilitate discussion without slipping into error, but you have to provide guidance for the group on how to interpret the Bible.
Way back when I was a CGL, my group tired of the umpteenth book study (most of them on relationships) I was also alarmed at the lack of bible study skills in the group. If any one acuually led someone to the Lord, they wouldn’t know how to start a bible study to disciple them. All we did was attend meetings and read books. So, I surveyed the group. There was a strong desire for bible study, and we agreed on a book for verse by verse study. I asked my pastor for permission to study the bible, and he replied that they wanted us to do the latest book (which was a really lame one).
I prayed and felt I should not take “no” for an answer. So I compiled a list of what we did in every meeting in the last year to prove the point that we beat certain topics to death but never studied the bible. I included a survey of the group about what they wanted to study, showing a strong preference for bible study. To his credit, he finally granted permission after several meetings and discussions.
So, we used NavPress materials for bible study in the group, and it went very well. We were the only care group in a large church studying the bible. All the other leaders did only what they were told.
I also wanted to teach hermeneutics, but I never got permission for that. I argued that if I wanted to study the bible in my home, no one could stop me. So, I “unoffically” invited a smaller group of men to my house every week to learn how to handle scripture. I used several good books on hermeneutics I had read and a really great commentary on Pilippians which we were using as an example on how to study.
I have to say that it was one of the most fulfilling periods in my time in an SGM church, but it was not without opposition. My point is that you can have a rich and productive spiritual life in an SGM church, but you have to hear God, prepare yourself with study, and stand your ground rather than rely on what other people want to feed you.
March 3rd, 2012 at 6:44 am
Speaking of the little orange book, I am so glad that i worship at the feet of my savior and not a empty piece of wood anymore.
March 3rd, 2012 at 7:01 am
I can remember being a 18-19 yr old drug user, homeless, pregnant for the 3rd time. For a time, I was sleeping on someone’s couch, while I tried to sell enough drugs to get an apartment. I felt so isolated, lost and alone. I walked to the Catholic Church up the street, to talk to the priest. I dont even remember what our conversation was, but he gave me a few things to save for the coming baby, maybe some food, but he also gave me a Bible. He told me to come back whenever I wanted. I eventually got an apartment, but I did hang on to that Bible. I would read it, always being amazed at how different the words within were from the stories I remembered from my youth. It wasn’t an apple Adam and Eve ate, it was “the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”-so far from being an apple it is ridiculous! Anyway, I came to know Jesus from reading that Bible. I began to seek places to be able to continue to read His Word, and talk with other Believers about His Words. It was not “man” who “led me to God”, it was God, speaking to me through His Word. His Words bring Life!
In The Nick of Time,post365 said,
And how do they reconcile that thought with Jesus’ own words, saying, “Where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I am in your midst”??
It just seems to me that for anyone to tell me I cannot read Words from my Father, and talk to my friends about His Words is simply overstepping their boundaries, and do not know Him!
I really can’t see any other way of looking at it-Mathew 7 keeps going through my head:
No one will stop me from knowing my own father myself, and sharing His Words and Goodness with anyone who wants to share with me also. How do we claim we know someone through someone else? That is just knowing OF them!
Will jump off my soapbox now. :mic Just something I feel passionate about.
March 3rd, 2012 at 8:23 am
ExCLCer’s Mom,
#368 -- SO, SO good. :)
March 3rd, 2012 at 8:38 am
I’m thinking CJ et al may not want to move to Kentucky after the tornados yesterday hit 40 miles or so from Louisville. The East Coast doesn’t get those weather extremes very often (though more so in recent years, it seems). Prayers to anyone here affected. Hope SGM sets up a relief fund, as long as money goes right to the victims
March 3rd, 2012 at 8:57 am
I’d rather drive to Kentucky, pass throught the areas hit by the tornados, roll down my window and fling dollar bills out than give my money to SGM so they can give in their name and be seen and praised as great men of the gospel. Or have them keep the money like I hear they did for Haiti.
March 3rd, 2012 at 9:13 am
Thanks, Ellie. QE2, what a sad, but true statement! It would be better to give money to a more reputable ministry, where one could be sure the funds were being directed to actually help people in need, rather than promote someone or their own personal agenda. So sad, really..
March 3rd, 2012 at 9:22 am
Mom thanks for post 368 it will help me get through the day and weekend.
God Bless,
Claude :clap
March 3rd, 2012 at 9:27 am
Thank you for the encouragement! I am happy to be used to bless you!
March 3rd, 2012 at 9:32 am
I think Mr D******* has finally lost it. 8O
March 3rd, 2012 at 9:42 am
I think SGM has gone thru some kind of “web search cleanse”. If you google Sovereign Grace, it is tough to find the Survivors homepage. Also, the Wikipedia article is cleaned up.
I am not an expert on how all that works, but something happened on the web overnight.
March 3rd, 2012 at 10:06 am
Greg said, about his efforts to conduct small-group Bible studies,
Greg, it’s great that you were able to lobby for a Bible study and finally persuade your pastor to let you do it. It’s also great that you had the wherewithal to stand up for the right to study the Bible in your own home with a group of people.
But isn’t there something tremendously wrong with the idea that you were able to have a “rich and productive spiritual life within SGM” only in spite of the church’s usual policies and practices?
March 3rd, 2012 at 11:53 am
SWW, I tried searching after I read your post. That is so bizarre. The homepage just doesn’t come up.
What happened?
:( :scratch
March 3rd, 2012 at 11:57 am
No conspiracy. I simply disallowed search engine indexing for a bit to clean up some issues I had with google and company. All is well
March 3rd, 2012 at 12:01 pm
Well, I’m relieved to know that. I’m glad it was your doing, Guy, and not some heavy-handed move on someone else’s part to make Survivors invisible (or less visible).
March 3rd, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Yeah, glad to know they didn’t track you down, forcing you to have to pull out the big guns! LOL! :cowboyup
March 3rd, 2012 at 12:09 pm
Kris,
Yes it is absolutely absurd that you have to fight for spiritual disciplines in SGM. Ironically, the men who taught me how to pray, and study, and stand for what is right were leaders in the early days of GOB. This was one of several surreal experiences I had. I was thinking, “I can’t beleive I have to fight for permission to study the Bible.”
Over time, living what I was taught brought me into conflict with leadership as I took on more leadership responsibilities. Most people are unaware of how much SGM changed in a relatively short period of time. As more sordit details are revealed about what was going over the years, I can get angry at leadeship or examine my part in what happened. For every time I took a stand, there were several when I caved into pressure. Many of us bear some responsibility for letting things get so bad by being quite and going along with what we were told even when we knew it wasn’t right.
In any case, God used experiences like that to form character in me, and I have since reconciled with my pastor. I share this as encouragement to those still in SGM. If there was ever a time to take stand for what you know is right now is the time to do it.
March 3rd, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Of possible interest. Just came across this .pdf — “A Defense of and Model for Apostolic Government,” authored by Daniel Baker (elder), Sovereign Grace Church, Apex, dated Winter 2012 (appears to be circa February 2012, based on URL): http://ourbackpages.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/apostles-2012.pdf
March 3rd, 2012 at 1:37 pm
The paper is located at a blog shared by Phil Sasser and Daniel Baker re: polity in SGM (http://ourbackpages.wordpress.com/about-2/). From the conclusion of the paper:
March 3rd, 2012 at 1:43 pm
2+2 #325
“Do you all think they have techno wizards out there trying to find out who posters are?”
Many of us have blatantly identified ourselves and my experiance with SGM is you really have nothing to worry about with their techno capabilities :wink: There are one or two guys out there in the SGM world but they are hardly onboard in this aspect :lol:
March 3rd, 2012 at 2:40 pm
Res Ipsa: It really was just a way of sticking up for you in my spirit and flew onto the page! No issues with Brent. It is always amazing to see how God can take something that might be horrifying (SGM finding out who a person is on the blogs)and He turns it around to give so much joy and blessing. I love the fact that you have been able to connect with friends who were just WAITING to support you!!
What a testament to how God’s ways are not ours! For so many of us the thought of “being found out” causes grief, fear and even dispair. I have already lost so many family members who are not speaking to me…I just can’t bear to lose another one.
Then when I read your post, I realize that GOD knows who I am and He LOVES me even if I am wrong about hiding. Someday,our hearts will all be revealed AND SO WILL THEIRS. I do not know why we fear all the shunning and hurtful words and judgement that may come as a result of being “found out” (we have been through so much already) but one thing is certain, YOU… Res Ipsa, are PROOF that everything always works out for the good for those that love Him. What an encouragement! Makes me want to open a business.
March 3rd, 2012 at 2:47 pm
to Kerrin-I was just wondering if you wouldnt mind answering my question about the “Yoga”.
March 3rd, 2012 at 2:48 pm
Greg,
I always thought you and Blues were the best CGLs at CLC. When you and he left it seemed strange to me, but I had no idea about the conflicts that went on with pastors behind the scenes until you wrote about them on this blog decades later.
I was basically kept in the dark about your reasons for leaving, so I just “believed the best”. I wish I had known more. Maybe I would have spoken up earlier….
March 3rd, 2012 at 3:06 pm
Welcome, The Truth. I’m confused about why you put yoga in ” “. On one local radio station, they use “yoga” as a synonym for sex, but I don’t think that’s the issue here. If you have a personal question for Kerrin and you know him well enough to ask it, why don’t you email him directly?
I appreciate Greg’s efforts to study the Bible at CLC too. I had a brief season of Bible Study --even a women’s Bible Study--when I was in care group with Sydney. It was lovely, then the care group was divided and that was that.
Anne CLC 1986-2007
March 3rd, 2012 at 3:19 pm
SMP, post 386, :goodpost :clap
March 3rd, 2012 at 3:38 pm
I am not sure what a problem about yoga or being holistic would be anyway? I understand there are extremes, but I have done some yoga for arthritis on the TV, and it is just breathing and stretching one’s limbs-nothing demonic, or distancing me from God, and as far as being Holistic, well, once again, people can go extreme with most anything, but I see nothing wrong with turning to resolve the root of problems naturally before one turns to medicine to treat a symptom.
I know we are not discussing other beliefs here, but my point is what one person says can be “misunderstood’ and ‘perceived’ so differently from reality. What difference is it is Kerrin ‘got into’ “yoga” or not? Does that justify his treatment? Would that give validity to anyone trying to report on the state of his soul? Only God knows a person’s soul! Frankly, I call most church people “alleged Christians”, because it is not up to me to know the state of their soul, it is up to me to judge their works, to determine how closely I want them involved in my life, but, in THAT case, I would be present to judge them directly, wouldn’t I?
I think Acme had a great suggestion! I would also think ti appropriate to ask the original person how they define ‘yoga” or “holistic”, and how do they know, or what is :spin their point? It all seems like a more private conversation to me, though, since Kerrin is not a public figure, nor a leader of topic on these blogs..Just my thoughts..
March 3rd, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Greg,
I didn’t know you well….only through your roommate at the time..but I believed you left because you “weren’t doing well” when you left.
I was such an arrogant, self-righteous, CLC loyal. And of course you’d never find another good church.
Get in touch with my hubs…we outta get together soon.
ACME…I barely remember…it seems sooooo long ago. Sadly.
Sid
March 3rd, 2012 at 5:02 pm
SMP #386, thank you!! I’m not about to try to tell you that I handled the whole situation perfectly; I was angry, to put it mildly. But I’ve seen God use that mess already.
I hope this encourages you because it has helped me a ton:
March 3rd, 2012 at 5:07 pm
I have mentioned this before, but we had our prayer/Bible study group broken up by our church.
Yes, you read correctly; they brok up our little unofficial meeting at a woman’s house.
See, the difference between Greg (being encouraged to study the Bible) and us was that not one of us left the toilet seat up.
We were accused of (ohhhh, the horrors) gossip and (give that person a prize) slandar. Why? Because we prayed for a situation that the leadership (the ones that leave the toilet seat up) didn’t want us to discuss (not even in prayer) the situation.
But, then again, it is the same pulpit that brought us the message that we’re better off looking at porn than reading these blogs.
March 3rd, 2012 at 5:46 pm
Wow!!
I guess porno studies would be allowed?
March 3rd, 2012 at 7:25 pm
DB,
You had a snitch in your little bible study!!!
March 3rd, 2012 at 7:36 pm
Sidney, SGMSingle,
Thanks for the encouragement. I eventually left over the issue of missions, having to choose between staying at CLC or obeying God. Hopefully, things are changing
Sidney, I’ll give your husband a call.
SGMSingle, if you are who I think you are, how are you and where are you?
I have no idea who Blues is -- I hate nicknames
March 3rd, 2012 at 8:01 pm
wow sgmsingle, thanks for the encouragement too!. greg, if you’d like to ask kris for my e-mail, it’s cool..that we we can figure out who each other are.
March 3rd, 2012 at 8:51 pm
You know, Bible tudy is NOT as conplicated and dangerous as some folks (usually the pulpitters) would have you to believe. All one really needs is a good (word for word translation) Bible and the Holy Spirit. It also helps to throw in a very healthy dose of prayer throughout the process. Before Christ was crucified He promised that He would send the Holy Spirit who would lead us into all truth. Now either the Holy Spirit can and will lead us into all truth, of Jesus was a bald-faced liar. I have learned far more about the bible and it’s Author through personal bible study than from any other way. That includes the bible college I graduated from (which was a good one).
The great Charles Spurgeon once said in reply to someone who tried to encourage him to embelish the bible some in his expositions, “Friend, the Word of God needs absolutely no help form me”. A lot of the so called “study aids” that are recommended by most ecclesiastical professional do more toward muddying you knowledge of the Bible and it’s Author than help. Most aids, outside of concordances and dictionaries are written with a specific denominational slant anyway. I just got rid of one set of study outlines I had for that very reason.
If you have a question about what a particular scripture passage actually means, ask the Author. He’s the only one who really knows what it means anyway. You might be surprised at what He says to you.
:beat
March 3rd, 2012 at 8:53 pm
B.R.Clifton, post 399-I love it! Absolutely true! :goodpost
March 3rd, 2012 at 9:15 pm
Sometime last year a few girls from covfel wanted to do a womens bible study and a pastor told them not to have more than 5 people because if its more than 5, the Bible can become water downed.
March 3rd, 2012 at 9:32 pm
Kris said, “I have been in small-group Bible studies pretty much my entire adult life. And I have to say, I have been amazed at some of the crazy stuff that comes up during Bible study discussions…crazy stuff that is frequently allowed to just stay floating out there without any refutation or other guidance from the leader.”
Kris, I know what you mean. I was once in this church where people went around believing that God’s “best” way to find a mate was to ONLY court in a very limited, “don’t spend much time together” fashion. Then this other time, they believed that God’s “best” was ONLY to homeschool. And then this other time, toddlers were being spanked for things that are quite healthy and natural, like not wanting to look a complete stranger in the eye and greet them.
It’s funny how “out of hand” stuff can get when we silly humans start studying the bible without wise leadership.
;)
March 3rd, 2012 at 10:08 pm
Mike, someone dropped a dime on us. They tattletaled that we were talking about the situation with poor Sue Patton. We were *concerned* about her no one was talking smack and no one was taking it lightly.
Soon thereafter, the woman’s husband became a care group leader. I guess she proved her ability to stomach the koolaid.
March 3rd, 2012 at 10:24 pm
This is my first … and probably only … post that I will make. I attended a SGM church from around 1992-1997. I won’t say where it was, mainly because I think that my husband and I represent a group of former SGM-ers from every church in the network.
My husband and I left our local SGM church primarily because of: (1) the sense of legalism that we felt characterized certain widespread practices within the church;(2) we felt that the exercise of spiritual authority was heavy-handed;(3) we felt that there was an inordinate focus upon sin; and (4) the focus upon having “correct doctrine” was so heavy that the church did not engage other churches (even those that were conservative and evangelical). I did not know until recently that this website even existed; but by the content on it, I guess we were not the only people who felt that way.
Having stated those things, let me emphasize that neither my husband nor I consider ourselves SGM “survivors.” We did not leave our SGM church wounded. Maybe it is because of that fact that I can look back on our experience and speak with greater objectivity than many others who have posted on this forum. I can say with truthfulness that, in spite of the fact that we left for the reasons mentioned above, I am appreciative of the good things that we gleaned while at our SGM church. Years after we left our SGM church, I told our new pastor about our time with SGM and why we left. I also said the following: (1) I had never been in a church that was characterized by its commitment to Christour SGM church; and (2) I had never been in a church that provided such support to parents in childrearing.
With regard to SGM and parenting practices, I recall meeting a woman in our city who was a leader in a local homeschooling organization. At the time, I was at SGM; but I had only one child, a toddler, so we were not among the SGM members who homeschooled. She was not involved in our SGM church; but because of the widespread practice of homeschooling among SGM members, she had interacted many times with the homeschooled children of SGM parents. During the course of our conversation, I mentioned where I went to church, and she told me this: “I’ve met a lot of homeschooled kids over the years. And I must tell you, that the kids at your church really stand out because of their Christ-like character. I don’t know what the parents at your church are doing, but they sure are turning out a lot of fine Christian children.”
The above statements should not be interpreted to mean that all SGM parents and child-rearing practices are perfect. Sometimes, I felt that some parents I knew were too harsh/unreasonable in their discipline. And yet, I also believed that they made a much more concerted effort in training their children in godliness than is typically found in Christian homes. The mentoring which parents gave to their teenaged children was a practice that I felt reaped particularly good fruit.
Having said all the above, I now come to the real reason for my post:
I know that many on this board have a lot of anger and hurt over things that they experienced while at SGM. My heart goes out to you, and my prayer is that God will bring healing and restoration of that which is broken in you. So what follows here is not meant to minimize the hurt that you have experienced in any way.
Yet it does not help to bring healing to the wounded or help SGM leadership and laity be open to receiving correction when people make posts here that are insulting and gossipy in nature. If you have concerns about certain SGM methods/practices/doctrines, then by all means say so. But there is no excuse for anyone who is a Christian to hurl insults or derogatory, inflammatory remarks. Speak the truth, and speak it in love. Sometimes love must be tough … but it is never demeaning or mean-spirited.
Regardless of your feelings about SGM and its leadership, they need your prayers now more than ever. This is a very rough season for this ministry as a whole. Although SGM leaders may differ in their views on whether this season is God’s discipline upon the ministry, the truth of the matter is that IN ALL THINGS--whether good, painful, messy, etc.--He has a plan to work it for our good. And for those formet SGMers who are hurting, He has a plan to work all of your painful experiences for your good, too. The Enemy of our souls wants us to leave Egypt with nothing; but God wants His Children to come away with plunder!!! (Please note: I am not inferring in any way that SGM is “Egypt.” I am speaking spiritually.) Determine in your heart that you are not leaving Egypt with nothing … and tell your heavenly Father that you want to come away from that experience with all the spiritual riches that He has intended for you!!!
The differences that have arisen between SGM and Covenant Life are not merely differences among leaders; these differences are undoubtedly putting strains upon family relationships. The Mahaneys and Harrises need people’s prayers!
‘Nuff said. And God bless us,every one.
March 3rd, 2012 at 10:26 pm
That’s a sad story, DB, Sue need some ladies to be concerned and praying at that time…
March 3rd, 2012 at 10:29 pm
My impression, Kris, would be that the exact dynamic you are talking about in #350 is what led to this sometimes spoken / sometimes unspoken anti bible study dynamic. While some churches, including mine, are loosening up in this area, the over-reaction to some of the very unsound takeaways that can come up in some study environments has been very real in SGM churches (IMHO). Instead of properly instructing women and men so they would know how to rightly study Scripture, the default has been Sunday sermons as the extent of mixed gender bible instruction with the occasional topical seminar thrown in a few times a year. Then, certain men would be invited to a theology study with pastor(s), and what they learned there was supposed to “trickle down” to the women in their families. The results of this neglect of sisters have been saddened me greatly…
March 3rd, 2012 at 10:39 pm
Blues,
I will send you a Facebook message.
Greg,
I will send you an email.
Sorry, I thought you both knew each others’ nicknames. I am almost 100% positive you knew each other at CLC.
March 4th, 2012 at 12:25 am
BR- 399- excellent post! Amen!
March 4th, 2012 at 12:36 am
CB 404
Rest assured, many people who post here will continue to pray for the people in SGM churches. They will also continue to shout from the rooftops that it very dangerous to get sucked into that organization. You aren’t close enough to see or know that danger. It’s quite easy to be fooled by them. Those that were members a long time know this too well.
March 4th, 2012 at 12:39 am
Stunned, my thoughts exactly :clap !! Perfect for it to follow Lynn’s comment, where, Lynn, you said how you were told if a Bible study was larger than 5 people the Word would be ‘watered down”. It really just doesn’t make sense! I know Gary and those guys used to hate it when I would say, “Show me that in the Scriptures, please?” It’s not there! SMH
CB, I am going to give some thought tonight on what you posted, but for now, I have to say, those children who seemed to be such fine Christians..many of them were being abused, and you cannot even imagine the lies they were believing..I am not saying ALL of them, mind you..I just know that SGM seemed to put into their children that the “outward actions” came first. It wasn’t presented as ‘putting up a front’, or ‘being a hypocrite’, but rather, “walking in Faith”, or “acting as though it is real in Faith”..whatever euphemism was employed, some (I still dont know all) had very tumultuous, traumatic lives that were not known outside of their family. Mine was a family that home-schooled. My daughter was exemplary as a young Christian girl..she was being molested by her father..she is still, 30 years later, trying to overcome the lies and pain.
No, the “outward appearance” does not necessarily speak ‘the truth’…
I am praying for those at CLC in particular..I agree with a lot of what you said. I am going to consider and think/pray on the rest tonight.
March 4th, 2012 at 12:44 am
As I read that post, I kept thinking of all those (truly) wonderful young people at my SGM church. Those that were praised for their Godliness, so many of them, want nothing to do with God, due to what they experienced in SGM. There are lots of those who follow God still. but many more that were too traumatized to ever enter through church doors again.
March 4th, 2012 at 1:06 am
Greg,
Yes, I knew from your past posts here and on Refuge that you left CLC because of your commitment to missions. I heard (and I believe it is true) that CLC pastors recently re-listened to John Piper’s message on missions he gave at Celebration 1999, and that they are planning to start obeying Scripture now instead of CJ. There is certainly a lot more “going” and “sending” now!
As you probably know, immediately after Piper’s message CJ seemed to disagree with it and the topic of missions seemed to be suppressed in SGM after that.
March 4th, 2012 at 1:11 am
Here is the link to Piper’s message at Celebration 1999. Listen at your own risk. It will hit you hard.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/conference-messages/hallowed-be-thy-name
March 4th, 2012 at 1:28 am
CB: You have a point in that it’s important to pray for everyone. There are also no true winners in the SGM saga as the powers-that-be in this organization are unlikely to be viewed very kindly by history/other church groups when SGM completely disintegrates as it is likely to do shortly.
It’s just hard to sympathize with the SGM leadership members when they all seem to benefit from the following perks: making six figure base salaries+commissions paid for writing books and giving conferences on company time, having access to $150/hour so-called mediators that seem to function as little more than informal PR departments/shadowy apologetic spokesmen, utilizing lawyers (that are always expensive whether they’re any good or not) when deciding whether to blackmail someone for personal gain, and lots of other goodies that one usually associates with Executive Corporate America’s culture rather than the culture of a humble non-profit Church group, as SGM purports to be.
Feeling sorry for these guys is also especially hard when you see how some of these supposedly godly individuals have been systematically devastating the lives of many of the very people who have funded their lifestyles/put their faith in them for decades.
The Mahaneys, in particular, have literally turned naked self-interest into an art form by believing that people are truly interested in viewing hundreds of pictures of the kitchen appliances in their model Christian homes.
You reap what you sow, no?
March 4th, 2012 at 9:19 am
“having access to $150/hour so-called mediators that seem to function as little more than informal PR departments/shadowy apologetic spokesmen,”
Could we all- that includes Brent- please wait until the AoR report comes out before we start slamming AoR?
As of now they have listened well, asked probing questions, and wept with those who weep.
We will all be disappointed if the report fails to address the systemic problems and double standards and legalism and sex abuse bunglings, and so forth. But for now, we have no right to put AoR down. Can we all just wait until the report comes out please? (if we ever get to read it, now that’s another subject).
March 4th, 2012 at 9:38 am
Today Cov Fel is having their family meeting. PLEASE pray for everyone in that building and for all of us associated with that beloved church. Please pray for truth to be made known and for strength and wisdom for everyone involved. I’d especially like to pray that the Holy Spirit would bring conviction and FULL repentance, though we know that oftentimes, that can take years or even decades to come forth.
Stunned
March 4th, 2012 at 9:53 am
CB,
It is also challenging to sympathize with SGM leaders who have repeatedly mishandled sex abuse involving children. Leaders who have twisted and lied their way through Family Meetings with the sole purpose of slamming the victim’s family and clearing themselves. (Fairfax SGM) Who have NO regard for how their cruel behavior has inflicted further suffering on these innocent ones. There has never been any fruit-bearing, genuine repentance for any of these crimes. What an indictment on the Sr. Pastor for how he “shepherds.”
March 4th, 2012 at 10:02 am
Speaking of women bible studies, while in college I took a womens studies course because I heard it was an easy A and I wanted to learn more. When I would tell people I was taking this course at covfel, they gave me odd looks. Yes, I didn’t agree with everything the professor said, but I learned a lot. Looking back I’m so glad I took that course. Now since I’m not drinking the kool aid anymore, I wish I could take it again.
March 4th, 2012 at 10:28 am
@Persona,
I do not know for sure if the Kauflin’s will be relocating, but it does make sense given Bob’s allegiance to CJ and the fact that SGM music is a large portion of SGM revenue.
@the truth,
You said:
I was attending what is commonly referred to as “hot yoga”—-it’s traditional Hatha yoga poses practiced in a room heated to 105 degrees. I’m not sure what is meant by “then went more holistic,” is this perhaps a reference to philosophical naturalism (this is not the case, just wondering what they meant by this)? Yes, Bob told my parents I was not saved and sighted my practicing Yoga as evidence of that. I chose “hot yoga” primarily because of it’s rigorous cardiovascular nature, lack of hindu “teachings,” and it’s one of the best stress relieving practices (i.e., it’s simple a good work out). I don’t doubt this is what you heard, but they’ve altered their story—as is typical of them—to make themselves look/sound better.
March 4th, 2012 at 10:37 am
Biblical Mediators or Corporate Mercenaries?
@5YearsinPDI:
I’ll just be frank, if that’s okay. :-) I think I have every right to put AOR down as it’s a non-profit organization behaving unprofessionally by the standards of the Conflict Resolution field that it is a part of.
Specifically, as someone who has studied mediation at a well-known university and hangs out with serious professional mediators, I’m appalled by AOR’s lack of professionalism to date and feel its used up any goodwill/trust it may have earned by simply empathizing with people. AOR is getting paid to offer mediation and conflict resolution services, not therapy.
Is There a Date for the Publication of This Elusive Report
And when is this report supposedly coming out? Ted Kober hasn’t communicated with the community as a whole since he put a blog post on the SGM site in Oct. That was a long time ago so presumably AOR has done work in the meantime that it’s not disclosing to the community. The actions of a company providing true mediation and reconciliation services should reflect trust and transparency, and AOR’s official silence since Oct. combined with the platitude-ridden passive aggressive message Ted Kober wrote Brent Detwiler last week, do not reflect those values.
If AOR plans to issue a report, now would be the time to say it’ll be done by March —. Otherwise, it’s reasonable to assume that no report will be published for the following reasons:
1) SGM won’t pay for it;
2) SGM won’t publish it.
If SGM doesn’t want to mediate issues between Joshua Harris and C.J. Mahaney, I doubt it’s interested in devoting time to any kind of group reconciliation process right now.
Ted Kober is Being Hypocritical by Refusing to Call SGM on the Carpet for Its Less-Than-Biblical Conflict Resolution Conduct
For example, Ted Kober’s e-mail to Brent arguably broadly suggests it’s unbiblical for Brent Detwiler to be irritated at Dave Harvey. However, Ted Kober hasn’t condemned or even addressed the less-than-biblical-mediation-friendly action Mickey Connolly and the board, that included Harvey, took in shunning/excommunicating Brent D. from the Crossway Church despite Brent Detwiler’s appeals for adjudication and his request to attend the meeting at which the shunning was done.
Ted Kober also seems to think that Brent D. should be writing him nicer e-mails, but Kober won’t publicly state what he’s told Brent D. in private: Dave Harvey and the board lied repeatedly about AOR’s role in C.J. Mahaney’s Kangaroo trial Ted Kober may not want to speak up about this issue because it demonstrates that SGM is not really interested in mediating anything right now but needs AOR to provide the appearance that it is open to doing so.
And what qualifies Ted Kober to mediate anything between anyone in the first place? While noting that Ted Kober plays the organ and has a business background, his AOR biography makes no mention of any conflict resolution credentials/educational background apart from being certified by Peace Maker’s program.
http://www.hisaor.org/web-content/AboutUs-Staff.html
The PeaceMakers certification program requires little training, by industry standards, and does not appear to be affiliated with or endorsed by any major Conflict Resolution Institute or University with a Conflict Resolution program.
http://www.peacemaker.net/site/c.aqKFLTOBIpH/b.1827011/k.52D3/Certification_Program.htm
A good portion of the training can even be done online:
http://www.peacemaker.net/site/c.aqKFLTOBIpH/b.3041595/k.8851/PreCourse_Assignments_for_Conflict_Coaching_and_Mediation_Training.htm
The type of training PM offers might be okay for mediators dealing with property disputes but it does prepare anyone to handle systemic problems like bungled sex abuse cases and PM/AOR should acknowledge that publicly and quit trying to mediate issues that are too serious for casual mediation.
If Ted Kober and Ken Sande seriously believed in Biblical mediation they would have spoken out against Mickey Connelly and the SGM board members that tacitly supported him, when they excommunicated Brent from Crossway in an egregiously unbiblical manner. They would also have call C.J. Mahaney onto the carpet for declaring, in the presence of at least 400 people, that SGM churches needed to get rid of “divisive” people as that policy/suggestion doesn’t seem very conciliation-friendly.
Ted Kober and AOR Need to Speak Up on Their OWN SITE
There may be some nice people working for AOR. However, all of Ted Kober’s actions to date indicate that he doesn’t believe in any type of Biblical Mediation. He’s simply a corporate mercenary (he seems to have a lot of business experience according to his AOR bio) acting as a PR department for SGM.
If Ted Kober disagrees with this assessment, he should say so on his OWN SITE as opposed to sending people over here, who may or may not be on his payroll, to disagree with me indirectly.
I hope that wasn’t too frank. :-)
March 4th, 2012 at 10:43 am
@the truth,
I forgot to add that I also chose “hot yoga” (aka Bikram Yoga) because studios can be found all over the US in major cities. At the time I was in a job where I traveled at least once a month to a major US city, thus I could “practice” when I traveled.
And I meant to say, ” I don’t doubt this is what you heard, but they’ve MAY HAVE altered their story—as is typical of them—to make themselves look/sound better.”
March 4th, 2012 at 10:49 am
Stunned,
Great pray for CFC family meeting tonight. I have been praying the same prayers you have since learning of the family meeting and all that will take place at it.