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The Report From Ambassadors Of Reconciliation Click here to see all 485 comments - (Comments are closed)
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April 22nd, 2012 at 8:03 am
I join those who thought the post on CLC’s website regarding the exit of Mahaney and others to KY
was weird--silence sometimes is golden, let the SGM power structure’s actions speak for themselves
without comment. It robs the current pastoral staff of credibility--and deepens the cynicism of
those who remain. A dysfunction of church leadership seems to always be the need to cover up for
other leaders, regardless of the detrimental consequences to those leadership is supposed to be
serving.
I have great empathy for those at CLC in
particular. I have a high opinion of Josh Harris, he has done some very courageous things well
and early in the process since Brent’s documents were released. But I would caution those who are
investing a lot of of trust in him, and others, to bring radical reformation to CLC and other “dissenting”
SGM churches.
The interesting question for JH and all those who are being looked to for the reformation of SGM is
this: What did you know and when did you know it regarding the information released in Detwiler’s
documents? If you had awareness of the behaviors of CJ and other SGM leadership before Detwiler
sent the documents to the SGM pastors (before the Wikileaks), why was there no expression of
concern or action taken? Why did it take the Wikileaks publication before any visible actions
were taken?
April 22nd, 2012 at 8:55 am
God must be saddened by how many times this basic process has unfolded in the body that is supposed to be the Bride of Christ. But, then I remember that He is surprised by nothing. He knows of the flaws, the free will, the fallen nature -- the mess that we are prone to create because of our often prideful behavior. He gave us a way to change that nature; to turn our back on that old man and walk with Him. The sadness comes when we don’t take that path.
I am grateful for what I learned those many years ago from some very caring Brothers at PDI/FCC. They led me more closely in a true relationship with Christ.
It was also there that I experienced the greatest hurt in my journey as a Christian and clearly learned the error of placing too much trust in men leading a church.
God has used those experiences to grow me as a Christian and as a leader. When I fall short as a Brother or as a Pastor, I am quickly reminded of the importance of honest confession and asking for forgiveness. I still fall short -- I have reminded the congregation often, “If I haven’t let you down or disappointed you, you probably haven’t known me very long.”
Whether or not the leaders that are supposed to guide SGM ever change is an unknown. I hope and pray that they do. Unless someone with earthly power is either harmed by them or is willing to carefully review the facts over these past years and “follow the money”, it is beyond our abilities to change it.
Come Lord Jesus; Come Quickly!
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:18 am
Rick said: The interesting question for JH and all those who are being looked to for the reformation of SGM is this: What did you know and when did you know it regarding the information released in Detwiler’s documents? If you had awareness of the behaviors of CJ and other SGM leadership before Detwiler sent the documents to the SGM pastors (before the Wikileaks), why was there no expression of
concern or action taken? Why did it take the Wikileaks publication before any visible actions were taken?
Exactly! This has perplexed me from the very beginning. These questions have yet to be answered, and that makes me suspicious of the whole lot of them despite the “progress” that has been made.
(Note to Guy: There’s something goofy going on with the comment box now. And I like the new look!)
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:37 am
Moniker -
Funny on the comment button! It sums up the attitude of SGM leadership. :P
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:38 am
Me too, Anon! Seriously.
Didn’t someone comment earlier that when CJ gave his “farewell address” to the CLC congregation that he walked off with a BODYGUARD accompanying him?
Really?!? Because that speaks volumes.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:44 am
Rick,
Your comment #351 was a good one, but the latter part was great. Thank you for sharing it.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:49 am
I’ve attended a LOT of Christian conferences over my lifetime and the ocassional guy who left the stage after speaking with a “bodyguard” awaiting him was typically exposed down the road as having MAJOR ISSUES. Needless to say, they’re no longer around.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:59 am
Come on, CJ was addressing his “local” church, “HIS” church, his very own brothers and sisters-in-Christ, the “happiest place on earth!” That would be like a dad needing a bodyguard to accompany him as he spoke to his own family. That’s crazy!
Can someone verify as to whether that actually took place?
April 22nd, 2012 at 11:09 am
CJ’s body guard was one of the policeman who attend the church and serve on the security team. I know him and he is a good guy.
At a later family meeting, the pastors had security protection. The pastors were sitting in the front row and had plain clothes policeman at either end.
Unless they received specific threats, it was total overkill. The message it sent was ” the congregation is the problem and we, the pastors, are the victims”
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:06 pm
I guess I can somewhat see the need for security in churches in this day and age, but it really bugs the heck out of me. It bothers me to even type it. I know too many missionaires who put their lives (and their family’s!) in danger.
It wreaks of the celebrity status mindset, “I’m so special, so high-profile, I’m a target for someone out there. Me, me, me!”
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:14 pm
The fact for me remains that most of the Christian speakers I’ve observed through the years that bodyguards ended up being exposed as having major issues and “had a great fall.”
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:16 pm
*that “had” bodyguards…
The comment box is doing something funky.
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:57 pm
I fixed the comment box problem. I was going to get snarky and comment on how it isn’t the site, it’s really you, but that would be over the top…. ;)
April 22nd, 2012 at 1:55 pm
Haha…thanks Guy.
April 22nd, 2012 at 2:08 pm
I found this article today called ‘Who Killed Ahithophel.’ It might be helpful for all involved: http://theresurgence.com/2012/04/22/who-killed-ahithophel
April 22nd, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
“846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?
Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head
through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church,
a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator
and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed
at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism
as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church
was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it
or to remain in it.”
T4G Affirmations and Denials:
Article XIV
“We affirm that the shape of Christian discipleship is congregational, and that God’s purpose
is evident in faithful Gospel congregations, each displaying God’s glory in the marks of
authentic ecclesiology.
We deny that any Christian can truly be a faithful disciple apart from the teaching,
discipline, fellowship, and accountability of a congregation of fellow disciples,
organized as a Gospel Church. We further deny that the Lord’s Supper can faithfully be
administered apart from the right practice of Church discipline.”
Well, T4G isn’t there yet, but it’s a slippery slope.
April 22nd, 2012 at 3:45 pm
AoR has set themselves up as authoritative practitioners of Biblical reconciliation within the Church and earn their living being paid to do so.
Kris n’ Guy plus Jim have set themselves up as bloggers without credentialed expertise and pay to do so.
Questions have been ringing in my heart for a week that compare and contrast the ministry of AoR v. Kris n’ Guy plus Jim to the Body of Christ.
I have found one resounding response: Kris n’ Guy plus Jim have loved the Body best.
Kris n’ Guy plus Jim have put in countless selfless hours spent moderating, writing, emailing, phone calling, seeking the truth, counseling, sharing tears and concern that far outweigh the efforts of the AoR employees.
Kris n’ Guy plus Jim have proven they have the ears to hear, the eyes to see, the heart to understand the deep seated issues.
Kris n’ Guy plus Jim have taken up the cause of the lowly.
Kris n’ Guy plus Jim have freely given the Body of Christ a venue to talk, to think aloud, to share experiences, to encourage one another, to delve into the issues that plague some and to speak the Truth clearly without double-talk.
Kris n’ Guy plus Jim have been falsely accused and have had erroneous motivations ascribed to them unfairly by the paid “authority.”
Kris n’ Guy plus Jim, thank you for exemplifying Christ when the paid experts failed. Those of us who have understanding, know the cost you have been willing to pay on the behalf of the Lord. You exemplify His love and the Body of Christ appreciates you and your sacrifices and efforts.
April 22nd, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Brent’s latest post is about the SGM move. Posted last night.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet.
April 22nd, 2012 at 6:31 pm
Stunned, thank you for your kind words. The other puzzling thing to me regarding AoR’s report and the general tone of those criticizing those
who comment on the blogs is the shallow judgment of their tone and language. I have some experience in pastoral care--one of the keys to
mitigating conflict is to allow the free expression of the person’s complaint. Those I respect refer to this as listening to someone’s Psalm
language. The language is raw, and in its most effective context, uncensored, if progress toward forgiveness, healing and reconciliation is to
take place. If we look to the example of Scripture the Psalms, especially those written by David, provide a lovely picture into the grace God
extends to us in that He listens to the honest expression of our hearts.
The expectation that those who are hurting must conform their language (both verbal and body) and emotional affect to some standard of
Stepford wife clinical presentation for it to be heard and validated is demeaning beyond description to those who have been harmed. I was
stunned (no pun intended) to hear those who are supposed to be experts in working with hurting people to be so unkind in their evaluation.
I had a wonderful pastor for many years who encouraged us to evaluate how situations were handled by whether “it looks like how Jesus would
handle it”. The harshness of the words toward hurting people who have shared on these blogs didn’t pass my former pastor’s test--at least
in my opinion.
My hope for the AoR folks is that they will communicate with Kris, Guy and Jim at Refuge, and perhaps come to some common ground.
April 22nd, 2012 at 7:32 pm
JeffB -
That article stood out to me as well . . . not in a good way either. They’ve slipped as far as I am concerned. What they are declaring in that article is NOT biblical. They are creating a religion to fit their preferences.
The other Article I found revealing was XVI. It was the longest Article, and it was to express their views on male and female roles in the church. By their statements in the last paragraph, they feel any other view diminishes the Gospel message in the particular church that holds that view. God is only allowed to work through a complementarian world view according to them.
April 22nd, 2012 at 7:55 pm
Has anyone seen this?
http://gracelouisville.wordpress.com/2012/04/21/sovereign-grace-ministries/
Sure looks like some propaganda to try and hide C.J. Mahaney’s and SGM’s sin from people.
The author of the blog sure doesn’t know the whole story.
April 22nd, 2012 at 8:05 pm
all AoR did was describe the monster in the room.
AoR…to much emphasis on sin…no duh
AoR…not enought education in Pastors College..no duh
AoR…every one seems humble…no duh
AoR…CJ is Pope like….no duh…
AoR…Some of these offenses are from years ago..no duh
Thanks kebler house cookies…
I could have done the same observations 4 years ago…
April 22nd, 2012 at 8:15 pm
Rick 371….what a superbly excellent post. Thank you!
April 22nd, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Brent has a new post up:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/4/21/sovereign-grace-ministries-relocation-announcement.html
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:02 pm
Steve240 #374: Thanks for the link. The church’s website is http://www.gracelouisville.org/gefc/staff.html. It’s an Evangelical Free Church congregation about 15-17 miles NE of SBTS.
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:08 pm
It has occurred to me that there might be another not so obvious reason for SGM’s recent announcement of their impending move to Kentucky. All of their stated reasons aside, there are other factors that could be the real driving force behind the move.
First, the catalitic release of the SGM documents by Brent Detwiller detailing a systematic history of abuse of power from top to bottom in SGM.
Second, the birth of these blogs which brought so much more to light that the SGM “leadership” had fought so hard to keep under wraps. The blogs also served to band together those who had been abused and marginalized by SGM leadership into a group with a voice that could no longer be ignored.
Third, some of the things berought to light involved criminal activity by some SGM leadership, such as blackmail, coercion, failure to report sexual abuse to the proper authorities. Then there is the long trail of continual lies and deceit. It’s just possible that they could be held accountable for a lot of this in court. In addition some who feel that AOR has failed in their task of reconciliation might seek legal justice.
It has been reported that recently Mahaney and other SGM “leaders” have been seen at meetins sporting bodyguards as though they might have some concern for their own safety. And this in the face of their own parishoners!
All this leads me to believe that perhaps SGM & Co. are moving to Kentucky so abruptly in order to avoid any such reprocussions. Once out of the state then any legal action would become difficult if not impossible. In other words, they are running to keep or get out of trouble. If this is true, they might escape civil action, but they cannot run far enought to escape the judgment of God who will most certainly have the last word.
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:18 pm
I personally think it is a great exposé/post by Brent. JL is no more truthful than CJ..It is fitting they team up.
Steve, post #374, I agree-I read the article and it totally seems like “Look here-ignore the man behind the curtain” type deal!
(imagine kool aid server pictured here)
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Oh poor CJ. Poor baby. They treated you soooooo badly.
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:31 pm
Ozymandias
Thanks for sharing the connection. I wasn’t able to find this on the blog.
It looks like comments either have to be approved or they aren’t allowing them to be posted.
One could always write to leader of this church and let him know the other side of this issue. ;-) The leader’s email is on the church’s site that Ozymandias posted.
April 22nd, 2012 at 9:37 pm
While I think Brent makes some good points about why SGM should remain in Maryland, his post also makes it abundantly clear that SGM is (and maybe always has been) a business whose operation has been driven by demographics and income. Some part of me still wanted to hope that wasn’t the case and that maybe, just maybe, some of these decisions were also driven by the Holy Spirit. Silly me.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:08 pm
SGM might have had the “good intention – to take sin seriously” for regular members and regular pastors they have shown no intention to take seriously the sin of top leaders, especially C.J. Mahaney.
C.J. Mahaney blackmailed Larry Tomczak and hid the sin for 10 years. That sin wasn’t taken seriously.
Other top SGM Leaders conspired to hide C.J. Mahaney’s sin. That wasn’t taken seriously.
C.J. wrote a book on humility while not practicing what he taught. That sin wasn’t taken seriously.
C.J. taught about commitment to the local church and your pastors including “leaving well” but didn’t practice that. That sin wasn’t taken seriously.
There are a lot more examples.
April 22nd, 2012 at 11:56 pm
Anyone want to take a shot at what these add up to for CJ
Wage
Housing allowance
Property allowance
Car allowance
Royalties
Honoraria
Bonuses
Gifts
Bonuses to Carolyn Mahaney
Gifts to Carolyn Mahaney
Book allowance
Education allowance
Office furniture and equipment allowance
Retirement account
Long term care
Heath Insurance
Dental Insurance
Vision care
Other medical reimbursements
Life Insurance
Disability Insurance
Workman’s compensation
Personally I would love to entitle myself to a Housing and Car allowance. Even though my little company does more in $$ per year than SGM, my only allowance
is for the company cell phone that keeps me available 24-7. I would love to swap my Board of Directors for his.
April 23rd, 2012 at 12:04 am
I bet AOR would hit the roof if they knew about how much SGM records in written files or on tape. They thought the e-mails were a bad idea.
Funny that they did not mention Larry’s tape of CJ’s calls. (Or did I miss that/) It’s nice to see that Brent has finally thought to mention the practice.
“Better yet, let’s see the minutes, Tommy Hill, from the past several years where these discussions are recorded.”
April 23rd, 2012 at 1:42 am
Great message from CLC Sunday. Well worth the listen. Imo, God has something to say through this message.
April 23rd, 2012 at 1:45 am
I may have discovered the underlying reason for CJ’s move to the “Ville”.
(please note the last category for this online survey)
Louisville:
Ranked #1 Sleepless Cities 2011 (2nd only to NYC)
Ranked #3 Hypertension Hot Spots
Ranked #3 Safest Cities for Families with Young Children
Ranked #4 Most Congested Cities
Ranked #13 Americas Manliest Cities 2011*
*Criteria for Manly Categories
Below are the broader categories on which each city’s manliness was measured along with a brief description of the criteria that went into each category.
Sports — In addition to the number of professional major league sports teams in a city (football, baseball, basketball and hockey), the number of nearby NASCAR tracks and racing events were taken into account along with the quality of pro sports, based on ESPN’s “Ultimate Standings” fan survey and “The Donovan Index” (www.donovanindex.com).
Manly Lifestyle — Various consumer behaviors in each city were analyzed, such as the number of pickups and motorcycles registered in the city, rodeo events, sports TV viewing, fishing and home improvement.
Concentration of Manly Retail Stores — The number of manly stores and businesses were evaluated for each city, including BBQ and chicken wing restaurants, steak houses, sports bars, western/cowboy apparel stores, Harley Davidson dealerships and home improvement stores.
Manly Occupations — The number of construction workers, police officers, firefighters, and EMT personnel in each city were analyzed, using the “Occupational Employment Statistics” survey from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
“Board of Manliness” Rankings (NEW category this year) For the first time in the study’s history, we incorporated personal rankings of 10 individuals into the study results.
This Board of Manliness ranked the 50 cities in the study and research expert Bert Sperling incorporated their composite ranking of the cities into a category weighted into the final rankings. The Board of Manliness includes publicly-known individuals such as actor and former bodybuilder Lou Ferrigno, former professional wrestler Sgt. Slaughter, baseball hall of famer, Rollie Fingers, comedian and actress Judy Gold, world beard champion Jack Passion and lumberjack champion Mike Sullivan. In addition to the public figures, the Board includes four everyday Americans – a retired Navy Seal, a school teacher, a police officer and a mother of four boys.
“Manly Kryptonite” Category / Emasculating Criteria*
Cities also lost points for an overabundance of emasculating criteria – factors that reduced a city’s manliness rating. These factors included the number of home furnishing and décor stores, cafés/coffee shops, sushi restaurants, “modern” male apparel stores and cupcake shops. Cities with higher concentrations of these types of stores lost rating points.
April 23rd, 2012 at 4:45 am
What ever happened to “faith” and “Trusting God” for financing? What ever happened to going where God directs and doing what God directs? It seems SGM has forgotten those things (if they ever knew them) and is now totally embracing business world scheme of demographics for planning purposes. There also seems to be a fair portion of good old business world “under the table” scheming going on, none of which is in any way biblical or Godly.
April 23rd, 2012 at 6:15 am
LOL, Persona, on the “Manliest City” as a reason to relocate SGM! I don’t think CJ will rank as “Manly” compared to the ‘standards’ of most of those men, however! Frankly, I feel like a man who runs from consequences of his own actions is the biggest coward and sissy of them all.
BR Clifton, you said in post #376 how perhaps they are running to avoid prosecution, but I do believe some of the offenses may be on a felony level, which would be prosecutable across all states.
Guy, I love the Blogger’s College idea! LOL! Isn’t it ironic that AoR thinks a blog moderator should be a “professional’, but CJ can fill all the roles he has with no formal training whatsoever? How do they reconcile that??
April 23rd, 2012 at 6:43 am
I wonder if the Grace Louisville Church will be so loving when the new SGM church arrives and siphons off their members.
Also, they missed mentioning the preaching schedule and travel to other countries during CJ’s leave of absence, and the outcome, which was to retract the confession.
If they think they will “partner for the Gospel” with SGM on a local level, they are sadly mistaken, as the only partnering CJ does is on the national level with other celebrity pastors.
Maybe they are hoping for an equally large donation from SGM, similar to what the SBTS got from CJ?
April 23rd, 2012 at 7:10 am
QE2 said “If they think they will “partner for the Gospel” with SGM on a local level, they are sadly mistaken, as the only partnering CJ does is on the national level with other celebrity pastors.”
Haha. So true. And I think that’s probably true throughout SGM. They are very exclusive. About a year ago, during a Q&A time with one of the pastors of the SGM church that I left, I asked if the pastors had any kind of relationship or fellowship with pastors of other churches in the area. His answer was a firm “no”. The reason given: something about not being on the same page theologically. :Conceited:
April 23rd, 2012 at 7:39 am
Rick, 369, another GREAT post.
In response to your last line from that comment, did you know that from the beginning, both Kris and Jim contacted AoR and offered any help, etc? Makes me sad.
April 23rd, 2012 at 7:46 am
Exclcer’smom:
No doubt their legal advisors had a lot to say about the move. You can also bet the move was more because of legal rather than economic issues.
April 23rd, 2012 at 7:51 am
Somewhere on the post, BD said for CJ alone: $300,000.
April 23rd, 2012 at 7:52 am
opps -- that was directed to Unassimilated #382.
April 23rd, 2012 at 7:54 am
Unassimilated Re 382
Also realize that clergy such as I believe C.J. Mahaney can qualify for (though maybe not since he isn’t a pastor)include being able to take some of their income tax free including housing allowance while also being able to deduct the interest on his home loans. I am sure the book allowance Mahaney gets is tax free.
It also must be nice to have your wife be given bonuses and gifts.
April 23rd, 2012 at 8:08 am
B.R. Clifton said:
Very good point. Does anyone really think that the SGM Leaders prayerfully submitted this plan to God? Isn’t that what scripture commands God’s people, especially leadership to do. There may be times when things make all the apparent sense in the world but God doesn’t want it done that way. There also may be times when it makes apparent human sense to do things one way but God’s will is something different.
Are the SGM Leaders doing the equivalent of “preaching in Asia” (Acts 16:6) when forbid by the Holy Spirit? Did the leaders forget to ask the God they claim to serve? Only God really knows.
April 23rd, 2012 at 9:55 am
Unassimilated mentioned in his list of benefits for the Mahaneys:
Bonuses to Carolyn Mahaney
Gifts to Carolyn Mahaney
What the heck?
And then:
Book allowance
Education allowance
Office furniture and equipment allowance
Oh, how I WISH!
April 23rd, 2012 at 10:04 am
Has anyone heard if Harvey is moving with the rest?
April 23rd, 2012 at 1:44 pm
Hasn’t anyone anything to say about the message from CLC yesterday?
April 23rd, 2012 at 1:56 pm
Remnant -- I saw that later in BD’s post, just wow.
Steve -- I thought of the taxes as well. CJ paid cash for his house, I wonder how the allowance is justified with SGM?
It’s nice that Brent has finally raised the $$ issue with CJ. His points about SGM’s cash reserves have me scratching my head
considering the years of SGM layoffs. All claimed to be necessary for budget reasons. I also recall a few years back when SGM initiated
the “Go Forward fund, they claimed that SGM and the Pastors College were in the red. Seems someone was lying somewhere.
Stunned -- Do you think CJ gets a blogging allowance? :Wink:
April 23rd, 2012 at 1:59 pm
I’ve just read the report and feel so sad for all the people who poured their hearts out to this
AoR crowd. I’m used to reading in the paper about how angry the general public feel when there is
a sham enquiry done within politics, but it’s a disgrace to read it done by Christians.
What a very sad thing for God to have to see.
I would like to encourage all those hurting and/or angry to try to move on when you feel you can. You’ve done all you can, turn it over to God now. I have recently found a peace by doing just this after my experience within Bristol SGM. I realised that although I had left I was damaged and carrying around hurt and anger from all that I had seen. It was affecting my relationship with God. I had to sit down and commit my hurts to God and the people who did these things and then move on.