Ambassadors of Reconciliation Refuse All Reconciliation Attempts
The Ambassador of Reconciliation (AoR) Report to the Board of Directors of Sovereign Grace Ministries (April 10, 2012) raised many troubling concerns for me. Chief among them the hypocrisy of Ted Kober who serves as the President of AoR. After its release, I attempted to interact with Ted in private.
When those attempts failed, I sought the help of Jim Pappadeas (SGM Refuge), Kris (SGM Survivors), Mole, and Larry Tomczak. I tried to set up a meeting with Ted to discuss our concerns for his report. Ted did not respond to these initiatives either.
Yesterday, I wrote the Board of Directors for AoR. I brought my concerns to their attention and made them aware I’d be posting a public rebuke on my blog given Ted’s refusal to meet in private or follow his own teaching. I also presented my case against Bryce Thomas, the trial lawyer hired by SGM, who helped design the Three Panel Review that took place last December. I asked the AoR Board to take disciplinary action against Ted, Ed Keinath (co-author of the report), and Bryce for failing to follow the Standard of Conduct for Christian Conciliation.
I now bring this matter to the attention of those effected by the AoR Report and invite you to write Ted Kober (tkober@hisaor.org), Ed Keinath (crosslife@frontier.com), Bryce Thomas (brycethomas@charter.net) and the AoR Board of Directors (mail@hisaor.org) in a redemptive manner in obedience to the process outlined in Matthew 18:15-17.
I am confident Ambassadors of Reconciliation has done much good helping other groups experience reconciliation. Unfortunately, some of their efforts have produced greater suffering and division for those inside and outside of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
What follows is a chronological presentation of my/our unsuccessful attempts at reconciliation.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:33 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Offenses with Me
Importance: High
Hello Ted,
I just finished reading your report. I get the feeling there is a substantial list of undiscussed and unresolved issues in your heart toward me. This concerns me since you have never written or talked to me about any offenses you may have with me. In contradistinction, I have always talked and written to you about all my concerns. I’ve been open, honest and transparent about the faults/concerns I have perceived in your perspective, character, or approach.
Therefore, please highlight each section or sentence of your report where you have me in mind and send that to me. It is impossible to know who you are referring to in comments like “Another threatened to publicly humiliate and discredit us by posting extensive blogs on the web if we didn’t respond in certain ways by that person’s imposed short deadline.” I am glad to entertain your criticisms but I need to know which ones apply to me.
I’d appreciate your prompt response.
Thank you,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:29 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: RE: Offenses with Me
Importance: High
Please call me if you prefer to do this via a conversation. Today if possible. I need you to point out each statement in your report where you have me in mind. You have not come to me in private so I want to afford you that opportunity.
Sincerely,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:12 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: RE: Offenses with Me
Importance: High
In the report, you claim you “addressed sinful attitudes, words and actions of key individuals” but that is not true with me. We had two conversations. During those interactions you never addressed any attitudes, words or actions of mine as sinful. The subject never came up. The statement below is entirely untrue as it pertains to me. You have never come to me in private.
“The Ambassadors of Reconciliation team addressed sinful attitudes, words and actions of key individuals or leadership groups privately as Scripture requires. Some expressed fear that the AoR team would not confront key leaders or groups on individual actions that contributed to the conflicts. Others expressed their desires that the team would expose sins of key leaders or admonish them publicly. Just as this report does not publicly address the sins of individual members, neither does it publicly address the sins of individual leaders. However, AoR did address such issues with key leaders privately.”
After our second conversation on January 25, you wrote me on February 4. In that letter you ask me to consider several questions but you did not correct me or reprove me for sin except for one passing sentence. That is, “Moreover, I don’t often see the love and forgiving heart in you that your Lord Jesus has shown you.” That is the only corrective statement you made and it was not something you ever talked to me about in person. In fact, you never followed up after February 4 about any of the questions you posited for my consideration even though I wrote you about the contents of your letter. You cut off all communication and refused to interact with me.
Here is the point. You have never corrected, confronted, reproved, rebuked, or addressed any “sinful attitudes, words and actions.” You asked some questions in writing but you never told me my attitudes, words and actions were sinful. If you believe I have sinned against you or others, you have not told me so. As such you have flagrantly disobeyed your own teaching. You did not come to me in private. Even more seriously, you make the false claim in your report that you obeyed Scripture when in fact you disobeyed Scripture as it pertains to me. That is totally misleading.
Ted, I have aught with you. Please leave your altar and call me. The first thing I want to know regards which comments in your report are directed at me. The second thing I want to know is why you never came to me in private. You have never talked to me about any sins you feel I have committed.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:00 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Kris and Jim
You did not come to me in private. Did you go to Kris (Survivors) or Jim (Refuge) to correct them in private before posting your report?
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:26 PM
To: Kris; Jim @ SGM Refuge
Subject: Ted
Did Ted ever talk to you in private and correct or confront you for the sins he accuses you of in the report?
##
From: Jim @ SGM Refuge
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:38 PM
To: Brent Detwiler; Kris
Subject: Re: Ted
We talked privately, but the blogs were a very small part of our conversation. There was zero correction. He broke his own ministry guidelines.
##
From: Kris
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:22 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted
No. Never. And I did something I never do – I actually initiated a conversation with him via email, offering to be of assistance in any way I could. He never responded to my email.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:08 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Great Hypocrisy
Importance: High
Ted, you have acted with great hypocrisy toward Jim, Kris and me. You need to make this right. See their responses [above].
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 8:51 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Are You an Ambassador of Reconciliation?
Importance: High
Ted,
In your report you make the following statement:
“Our observation is that the power of worthless talk (Ephesians 4:29 if) and sinful judging (Matthew 7:1-2; James 3:5-12; 4:11-12) was greatly exacerbated by those writing and reading blogs and widely distributed emails. Coupled with the falsehoods and exaggerations about AoR, our team members and work were the threats and condemning words sent to us. Based on false information, people made assumptions, misquoted and twisted our words and statements, and made D**ning statements against us.” (p. 10)
The facts show you did not come to me, Jim or Kris. I’d like to know if you went to anyone in private. Did you attempt to restore these individuals in a spirit of gentleness (Gal 6:1) as you are apt to point out to others? Or did you leave them in their sins and give them no opportunity for repentance? You make no reference to any attempts to act as an ambassador of reconciliation. It appears you are content to make vague accusations on a website but are unwilling to approach such individuals in a biblical manner.
You are completely at odds with your teaching if you have not gone to these people and acted as a peacemaker. I also wonder if you are exaggerating the magnitude of the sins against you since you provide no evidence. What falsehoods? What exaggerations? What threats? What condemning words? What false information? What D**ning statements? Without evidence I am concerned these kinds of statements may constitute “worthless talk” and “sinful judging.” You spend a lot of time in the report highlighting how people have sinned against you. I am not sure why you felt the need to do so. Are you bitter or resentful?
Most importantly, however, have you contacted each of these people regarding the accusations above to work out your offenses? Have they been given the opportunity to respond?
I am still waiting to hear from you. Please tell me all the places in the report where you have me in mind.
Regards,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 9:47 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Use of Email
Given your position on the use of email and your counsel to SGM, why didn’t you call me regarding the “sensitive issues” contained in your February 4 email? From my perspective, you did not follow your own admonition. Do you agree?
“It seemed apparent to us as outsiders that leaders within SGM have made extensive use of email for rather sensitive or confidential communications. While this may be an expedient way to communicate when key leaders work from scattered locations, the extensive use of this medium in sensitive communications seems unwise to us…. Matters of confronting others about sin, discussing issues with legal implications, discussing employment or supervisory information, confessing sins or forgiving others, and other similar communications should be done in person or documented in more formal written communications. Email tends to be less formal and inadequate for addressing sensitive issues.” (p. 15)
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:14 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Mole
In your report, you appear to have Mole in mind as one of those individuals who has sinned against you and SGM? Is that correct? If so, have you gone to him in private to confront his perceived sin and be reconciled?
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 2:57 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Great Travesty
Dear Ted,
Here is your authoritative exhortation to the Sovereign Grace Board of Directors about going to be reconciled. It is found in the Consultation Report from last August:
“Before engaging the help of other Christians (such as through Ambassadors of Reconciliation), we remind the SGM Board members of their biblical responsibilities to initiate action for reconciliation.
“Note that the direct teachings of Jesus and the Apostle Paul urge us to go and be reconciled to those with whom we have disputes. It does not matter whether we believe we have been sinned against (Matthew 18:15), the other person is entrapped in sin (Galatians 6:1), or if the other person has something against us (Matthew 5:23-24). We are to make every effort to make peace (Romans 12:18; see also Hebrews 12:14).
“As we consider these and other verses in the full context of the Bible, we see that “going” to be reconciled requires more than email, more than blogs, more than letters, more than phone calls – it requires going to meet face-to-face. Note that God so loved the world that he sent his only Son (John 3:16). Jesus the Christ humbled himself to become flesh (Philippians 2:1-11) and come to earth in person to dwell among us (John 1:1, 14).
“Note also that our responsibility to “go to be reconciled” is not excused simply because another indicates that he does not want to meet. God reconciled us to himself “while we were yet sinners” (Romans 5:6-11). God did not wait until we desired for him to come.
“It is obvious to us as we read the documents written by Brent Detwiler and met with you that there are broken relationships between Brent Detwiler and C.J. Mahaney, between Brent Detwiler and individual members (current and former) of the Board of Directors, and between Brent Detwiler and the entire Board of Directors. According to Scripture, it does not matter who caused the offense. When relationship is broken, it is incumbent upon every believer in Christ to “go and be reconciled.”
“Scripture does not excuse us because we are fearful that our words might be twisted. Scripture does not excuse us if we think the other person might not listen. Scripture does not excuse us if the other party indicates in emails that he will not meet with us. Scripture does not excuse us if the person does not live in our town. Scripture does not excuse us if the other party has widely shared his complaints against us. Scripture does not excuse us if the whole world reads about the complaints against us in some public media. People find all kinds of excuses not to obey the teachings of Scripture, but our social practices and customs are not what guide God’s people in such matters.” (Ted Kober, Consultation Report, August 24, 2011, pp. 13-14)
My question is simple. Why haven’t you followed any of your own demands? In relation to me, Kris from SGM Survivors, and Jim Pappadeas, you have made no effort to walk in the light and be reconciled. I suspect the same is true of Mole but you have not answered my questions regarding him. In all seriousness, have you made any effort to meet with anyone you speak against in the report? Have you taken any action to contact those with whom you have offenses?
The majority of your offenses go back to August-November of last year. You’ve had months to pursue reconciliation. Once again, why haven’t you followed your directives in relation to me, Kris, Jim, Bob and others? Per your admonitions, you should have been on a plane to meet with each of us months ago. Furthermore, why haven’t you written me as requested? Why haven’t you called me as requested? Why haven’t you offered to meet with me? I am ready to do all of the above.
Ted, you have done nothing you have taught thousands of others in relation to us. This is a great travesty and needs to be corrected.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Date: Fri, April 20, 2012 7:03 am
To: Mole
Subject: Ted Kober
Has Ted ever come to you in private to confront or correct sins he believes you have committed against SGM or himself?
##
From: Mole
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 9:15 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
No, why do you ask?
Mole, BSCJ, QMHP
Family Counselor
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:41 AM
To: Mole
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
Have you ever talked to Ted or Ed [Keinath]? Did you meet with either of them last November at CLC? If so, did they ever register any concerns for you?
##
From: Mole
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:45 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
Marsha and I were told by another couple who interviewed with A of R that their counselor had indicated with dismay and shock, that in fact, 104 pastors had come forward in an effort to expose SGM for their abuse.
Our interviewer [Ed Keinath] was moved to tears as we shared [our] story. He gave every indication that he completely sympathized and understood the tragedy of our situation. When we were finished with the interview I looked out the small window of the office door and saw Gene and Liz sitting there. I asked the interviewer to please escort Gene and Liz down the hall so we could leave without interacting with them. He did so and said, “I absolutely understand.”
##
From: Mole
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:58 PM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: A of R
Brent…. Marsha reminded me that at the end of our session with Ed, he asked me if I would be willing participate in a meeting in order to address concerns about SGM. This was yet another indication from A of R that they were taking our complaints seriously. Our hopes were very high when we left. Unfortunately, I never heard from anyone from A of R again. Looks like it will stay that way.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 4:19 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Follow Up on Mole
Bob met with your associate, Ed Keinath in November at the Pastors Conference. Ed only empathized with Bob. He did not confront him on anything. No one from AoR has ever brought any concerns to Bob’s attention. Just the opposite. I hope you did not have him in mind in your report. I await your clarification. Did you?
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 6:43 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Take Along One or Two Others – Matthew 18:16
Ted,
I wanted to talk or meet with you in private in order to show you your fault and win you over (Matt 18:15). I’ve waited five days for a response of any kind but you could not take 5 minutes to call me or two minutes to text me. You should have expressed eagerness, if not a willingness, to meet with me.
I’ve written you numerous times over the past week. I asked to talk with you. I asked to know what parts of your report are in reference to me. I pointed out your dishonesty in saying you addressed sinful attitudes, words and actions with me in private when you did not. I pointed out your hypocrisy in not coming to me when offended at me. I pointed out your hypocrisy in relation to Kris and Jim for the same thing. I asked for an explanation on your use of email in raising “sensitive issues” contrary to the counsel you have given others. I asked whether you have gone to anyone with whom you have offenses. I’ve told you your sins in print. I’ve asked to do this in person. In spite of all this, you have made no effort to “leave your gift at the altar” and “settle matters quickly” with a “brother [who] has something against you.” (Matt 5:23-26.)
Ted, you have grievously sinned against me, specific others, the abused, the churches of SGM, and the larger Body of Christ. Therefore, I have asked Kris (SGM Survivors), Jim (SGM Refuge) and Mole to appeal for your repentance. I also asked them to join me in meeting with you per the teaching of Matthew 18:16. As is obvious in your report, you believe many people have sinned against you (and SGM) and yet you have not gone to them. We also believe you have sinned against us. For example, you confronted us in your public report but never came to us in private. I assume you justified doing so by leaving out our names but it is readily apparent who you had in mind. That amounts to duplicity.
Ted, you have set a terrible example for one who teaches others on peacemaking and the pursuit of reconciliation. You have not been a conciliator. You have brought more division. To be honest, I am concerned you hold sinful anger in your heart toward us and others. This much I know for certain; you have repeatedly violated Matthew 5:21-26, Matthew 7:1-5, Matthew 18:15, Romans 12:18, Galatians 6:1 and Hebrews 12:14. I hope you will repent to us in private and then make public restitution. Please let me know by Monday if you are willing to meet with us or talk to us using Skype. Then we can set a date and make arrangements. If Kris, Jim or Bob are unable to participate, I will provide other witnesses as required by Scripture.
Please show me the simple dignity of a response. Sinners do that much.
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:37 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Please Contact Me Today
Please don’t let the day pass without calling or writing to set up a time to meet with us for reconciliation. As I said before, I am glad for you to point out in the report where you had me in mind and then tell me my faults.
Sincerely,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 4:41 PM
To: Jim Pappadeas; Kris; Mole
Subject: An Appeal to Ted Kober
Importance: High
Dear Jim, Kris and Bob,
I’ve repeatedly attempted to contact Ted Kober. He has been unresponsive. Though he shows no interest, would you be willing to meet or talk with Ted in accordance with the second step of redemptive discipline outlined in Matt 18:15-17? I believe he has sinned against us and others. Kris, we can make special arrangement for you if you are unable to join us in person or prefer not to use Skype.
I’ve limited the scope of my correction in addressing Ted for now. There are some good parts in his report. There are some bad parts. Mostly, there are missing parts. I believe Ted has sinned in other ways but I will address those additional matters in private and give him the opportunity to respond.
For now, I’d appreciate your assistance in helping Ted to see his hypocrisy, unwillingness to attempt private reconciliation, and public slander having not come to us first. You are also welcome to share your general perspective on his report.
Bob has already provided me a statement to send Ted. Jim and Kris, would you do the same? It can be short. I will also ask Larry Tomczak for his perspective on the report. I’d like to send them to Ted tomorrow if possible.
I know we are not in habit of communicating with each other but I felt it important that we collectively reach out to Ted, appeal for his repentance, and share with him our perspectives.
I’ve included my private correspondence with Ted below. I plan to post our correspondence this week if he is unresponsive and ask others to reach out to him and Ed Keinath and appeal for their repentance. I will also contact the Board of Directors for Ambassadors of Reconciliation.
Thanks for your help.
Brent
##
From: Jim @ SGM Refuge [mailto:jim@sgmrefuge.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:29 PM
To: Brent Detwiler; Kris; Mole
Subject: Re: An Appeal to Ted Kober
Importance: High
I would love to interact with Ted regarding his condemnation and misrepresentation of my blog. As AoR’s primary blog cheerleader, I’m surprised my efforts were ignored by Ted. I’m not hurt or offended, just surprised.
I am greatly disappointed that Ted was apparently offended by the perceived sin of those abused by SGM leaders, and felt the need to add to their pain with his very public condemnation. I’m really having a hard time wrapping my head around such a blatantly hurtful act coming from the president of an organization that calls itself Ambassadors of Reconciliation.
If Ted honestly cares at all about reconciliation, he should publicly repent to the abused, as he has now joined the ranks of the abusers. His actions bear no resemblance to peace making.
Grace,
Jim
##
From: Kris [mailto:kris@sgmsurvivors.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 8:23 PM
To: Brent Detwiler
Cc: Guy
Subject: RE: An Appeal to Ted Kober
Hi Brent –
Our policy has always been that we want to remain anonymous. Although we were very disappointed with the way that AoR chose to go after “the blogs” as relentlessly as they did, without attempting even a simple response to the emails I sent, in which I offered my help, I don’t really feel like we need to participate in any sort of reconciliation process with anyone – at least not the sort of process that the AoR people would expect. We would not wish to speak on the phone or Skype with anyone. We’re happy, however, to have you pass on the following statement to the AoR folks:
To whom this may concern:
As random bystanders who were ourselves thrust unwittingly into the midst of SGM’s problems back in late 2007, we definitely sympathize with the magnitude of the job with which the AoR organization was tasked when hired to explore SGM’s weaknesses and failures and attempt to bring healing to SGM’s victims.
Much has already been said on the Survivors site in response to the report which AoR released recently. If I were to summarize our readers’ reactions, I’d say that many were very disappointed with the way so much of the report’s focus seemed to be upon “the blogs” and the (perceived) sinfulness of those who had spoken out about the way they’d been harmed by SGM. It came across quite clearly in their report that the AoR folks had taken personal offense with “the blogs” early on and never bothered to dig more deeply to try to find out WHY AoR was met with suspicion. Consequently, AoR is – ironically – guilty of committing the very same sins toward blogs and bloggers that they themselves had found so off-putting. The AoR representatives felt free in their report to vent their disdain toward “the blogs” without ever having communicated with anyone from SGM Survivors. (And this, of course, was despite the fact that I’d made at least a couple of efforts to engage with Mr. Kober via email back in December and offered to help AoR in any way I could.)
Also, since it is my understanding that AoR was hired to examine and evaluate Sovereign Grace Ministries, NOT “the blogs” or SGM’s victims, it was especially bizarre to see so many peevish references to all the ways in which bloggers and SGM’s victims did not meet AoR’s expectations.
That being said, I can truly say that AoR’s report was, unfortunately, essentially what I had expected it to be. I’m sorry that that turned out to be the case, but I can understand why a “reconciliation” business with only the most rudimentary outsider’s understanding of SGM’s history and culture would lack the perspective and the knowledge to look beyond SGM leaders’ pretty words and shining surface behavior and see how twisted the organization actually has been.
We don’t want anything from AoR. But if they would like to grow from this experience, I would suggest that they consider the ways they failed SGM, SGM’s victims, and themselves by being so quick to accuse bloggers of sins without taking the time to explore more deeply where the bloggers are coming from – and why they themselves felt it was OK to castigate “the blogs” in their report without first following their own rules for conflict resolution.
Blessings,
Kris
##
From: Mole
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:45 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
As most people understand, it is extremely difficult for anyone who has been abused to report the offense, even to the proper authorities for a myriad of reasons (fear of retaliation, fear of more abuse, ostracism, fear of revisiting the feelings and emotions relevant to the abuse, embarrassment, shame, etc.). Everyone who shared their stories of abuse with A of R were hoping that by entrusting their story to the perceived “proper authority,” in this case A of R, justice and resolution would occur. The very last thing abused individuals expected was for the proper authority to essentially turn on them. This is a great travesty. These people are now doubly harmed and have had emotional and psychological problems aggravated by their experience with A of R.
Our interviewer [Ed Keinath] was moved to tears as we shared [our] story. He gave every indication that he completely sympathized and understood the tragedy of our situation. When we were finished with the interview I looked out the small window of the office door and saw Gene and Liz sitting there. I asked the interviewer to please escort Gene and Liz down the hall so we could leave without interacting with them. He did so and said, “I absolutely understand.”
Personally, Marsha and I feel betrayed. We were told by another couple who interviewed with A of R that their counselor had indicated with dismay and shock, that in fact, 104 pastors had come forward in an effort to expose SGM for their abuse. He gave every indication that he completely sympathized and understood the tragedy of our situation. When we were finished with the interview I looked out the small window of the office door and saw Gene and Liz sitting there. I asked the interviewer to please escort Gene and Liz down the hall so we could leave without interacting with them. He did so and said, “I absolutely understand.”
Prior to the interviews starting I wrote A of R asking them to reconsider the venue for the interviews because they were asking the abused to come back to the place that represented where the abuse occurred. I also mentioned the Pastors Conference was simultaneously being held where those reporting abuse would likely see their abusers face to face (which of course they already knew). In light of the emotional trauma this would likely engender in those reporting abuse, I asked them to reconsider where they had chosen to do the interviews. They ignored this request (which further demonstrates and lack of appreciation and knowledge in dealing with abused people).
Looking back, now that the report has come out, I am convinced A of R simply did not and does not comprehend what has happened to those who have experienced abuse at the hands of SGM. I’m afraid rather than resolve any problems or being ambassadors of reconciliation, they have stirred up a hornet’s nest and are complaining as to why they are being stung.
Thanks,
Bob
##
From: Larry Tomczak [mailto:1larrytomczak@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 5:41 PM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: Re: An Appeal to Ted Kober
To whom it may concern:
I have been asked my thoughts on the AoR report. First, I appreciate all the hard work that went into this project dealing with very sensitive matters in scores of people’s lives. I trust AoR was well compensated.
Second, after waiting and praying for almost a year regarding this endeavor (regularly not daily), I was EXTREMELY disappointed with the results. I could scarcely believe what I was reading. I believe multitudes share this perspective.
Third, my wife and I believe the report was a serious disservice to scores of people who invested incredible amounts of time and effort to serve the AoR team. Doris and I gave over 250 hours to prepare for our contribution in addition to travel time and the days given to the interview. Addressing the illegal, immoral and documented blackmail plus the reprehensible conduct that shattered our reputation, relationships and family ties (plus our livelihood) was afforded a dismissive SIX sentences in the report! Unbelievable.
Finally, we are of the opinion that if the SGM leaders had simply done the report on their own, they would have been more forthright and harder on themselves than this most favorable AoR document.
When we shared our experience with Ted and his assistant, one wiped away tears and the other dropped his head in shocking dismay at our traumatic experience, manipulation, falsehoods and numerous examples of unChristlike behavior we experienced that could have destroyed our Christian lives as a family of six. We, like hundreds of others who experienced spiritual abuse from SGM leaders, now wonder if some of the apologies and asking of forgiveness will have to suffice.
We love you Ted and the team but inquire if your labors represent the accurate picture of the systemic problems that multitudes hoped would be addressed and corrected so SGM could begin a new season in humility and integrity.
Trusting God’s sovereign grace, I am, yours in His service,
Larry Tomczak
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:14 AM
To: Ted Kober
Cc: Jim Pappadeas; Kris; Mole; Larry Tomczak
Subject: Private Appeals Continue
Importance: High
Dear Ted,
It has been over a week since I first asked you to call me. I don’t understand how you can reject all my attempts to engage you. I believe you have sinned against me and I am happy to hear how you believe I’ve sinned against you. I’ve sincerely sought to engage you in a redemptive and biblical manner but you appear obstinate in your rejection of all attempts at reconciliation.
Jim Pappadeas, Mole, Larry Tomczak and I would like to meet with you. We all have concerns for your Report to the Board of Directors of Sovereign Grace Ministries from April 10, 2012. We would like to discuss our concerns with you personally.
In obedience to Scripture and for your godly good, I’ve also asked these men to join me in helping you see how you have sinned against us and others. I’ve included their appeals and perspectives [above] but this is inadequate. We also need to meet in person. As it stands Ted, you are rebelling against the commands of Scripture and living contrary to everything you have taught and demanded of others.
I have many things to say about the report regarding inaccuracies (e.g. AoR’s confidentially requirement), bias, unfactual assertions, and dereliction of duty. That is, how you largely failed to address what you were tasked to do. There are some good and bad parts in the report but the most important parts (e.g., C.J. and the Board’s deceit) are left out. I will write you in private about these matters and give you the opportunity to correct my perspectives before I share them at large. The report is public. It requires a public response.
Of greatest importance for now is your failure to meet, hear our offenses, or pursue reconciliation. Your indifference undermines all your credibility and the entire ministry of which you are the President. If you have not done so already, send my previous appeals to your Board of Directors along with this correspondence. I hope they will reprove you and hold you accountable to the most basic tenets of the organization.
Ted, I have faithfully sought to obey Scripture in my pursuit of you. Please text, email, or call me today. I’d like to keep this matter confined to Jim, Kris, Bob, Larry and me. Whether I appeal to a wider audience is up to you. Contact me by the end of the day so we can set up a time to meet in the near future.
God’s grace rest upon you.
Brent
### EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING POSTSCRIPT:
I would add that my own interview with Ed Keinath also was in complete contradiction to what AoR published. Ed told me that since last summer he and Ted had been concerned about the the board’s blind devotion to CJ. He also expressed whole-hearted agreement when I indicated that at the heart of SGM’s problems was a culture of selfish-ambition. Ed also indicated that he and Ted estimated that about 20-30 churches within SGM were already prepared to leave SGM.
I don’t pretend to know why the report does not match what was communicated to many of us but the disharmony between what we heard with our own ears and what was published casts a significant cloud of suspicion over the report and the SGM leadership.
I plead with you that if any of you fear God and know why this disharmony exists that you would come forth.
Jenn Grover
Pittsburgh, PA
April 27th, 2012 at 8:59 am
If we walk by FAITH and not by sight, and Jesus tells us that there are only two masters, God and mammon, why are these men of supposed great faith and even greater humility making such a great decision based on money? (Cost of living?)
Scratch that question. All the church plants were placed based on the wealth of the community they were
poaching, er, planting.In my personal experience, God asks us to do things that sometimes makes no financial sense, and He provides and blesses us in the endeavor.
This organization has no eternal purpose or future in mind. It’s all about power and money (read that mammon.)
Just my 2 cents, as I drink my coffee this morning….
April 27th, 2012 at 9:01 am
Kris, your email sparked a few more thoughts.
Why do people care so much about the nuanced sins of the person sitting next to them on Sunday, to the point where they continually rebuke and sin sniff each other, but ignore or minimize major sin of the movement’s leaders? And both the focus on sin of others near you and the ignoring of sin above you is
supposed to be “biblical”?
I ponder the life of Jesus. He didn’t seem to spend 3 years having the twelve focus on sins like “the fear of man”, or “pride” while “believing the best” of the religious leaders. They didn’t sit around at night confessing sin.
While Jesus did give direct teaching-do this, don’t do that, he also spent a lot of time telling parables, which, by the way, required critical thinking skills to figure out. It was almost like he wanted people to continually monitor themselves, not for sin, but for a sense of “Am I missing the entire point here? Is the Kingdom of God really what the religious system portrays it to be?”
So many on here say that they come to a place where they realize that they wasted years in the SGM system, thinking they had it figured out, only to discover that they missed the whole point!
April 27th, 2012 at 9:04 am
ATC, keep it on the dl. I’m trying to develop my bad boy persona. (So far I have some SGM pastors and Brent convinced. ;) ) Thanks for your kind encouragement. It’s one of those days that I can use it!
April 27th, 2012 at 9:06 am
Kris,
I know for a fact it’s true. Not sure if they have ever put it in writing for dissemination (probably wouldn’t ever do that), but yes -- I’ve heard this sentiment/ideal escape physical lips of SGM leadership.
April 27th, 2012 at 9:14 am
Whirlwind,
I think what you imagine is probably quite accurate. SGM leaders were eager to talk about their sin and are well-trained in displaying a properly “humble” demeanor.
But wouldn’t someone with even a shred of discernment consider the fact that SGM leaders had every motivation to behave in ways that would impress AoR with their (perceived) godliness and humility? While those who had been hurt by SGM would not have such motivations and would instead be more prone to lay it all on the line and display anger and frustration?
You can practically hear AoR’s breathless admiration for SGM throughout the report. This, coupled with their clear disdain and personal irritation over “the blogs” and SGM’s critics, makes it clear that AoR was far from being a detached and impartially fair outside organization doing a legitimate investigation -- which is how the report has always been portrayed. Considering their obvious bias, and their apparently naïve embrace of however SGM’s leaders presented themselves, AoR’s evaluation of SGM and SGM’s critics is essentially meaningless.
April 27th, 2012 at 9:23 am
Rorschach -
I, too, know that the “We don’t support small-group Bible studies” sentiment must be true for at least a segment of SGM churches. Way too many people have shared observations over the years about how there were no Bible studies at their SGM churches…and how, when they asked questions and/or tried to get something started, they were discouraged or forbidden.
There are some exceptions. But even in the case of the exceptions, I think it remains true that Bible studies will be tightly controlled by leadership, most often led by pastors or their wives (in the case of women’s Bible studies) or by people with very close connections to the pastors. The kind of Bible studies done in “normal” churches do not happen much in SGM churches…and this is by design, done deliberately.
MANY people have shared about wanting to deviate from the decreed book they were supposed to study in their care group, and just study a book of the Bible instead -- and they were told “No.” In the rare cases where it did eventually happen, the care group leaders had to do battle for it -- for the exceptional privilege of getting to study the Bible, rather than some SGM-approved book or the pastor’s most recent sermon.
SGM defenders will argue about this. But if you go to all SGM church websites and survey the church calendars and what’s available, you’ll see that by and large, SGM churches do not do Bible studies the way that “normal” churches do them. Yes, there are exceptions. But they are exceptions. Since SGM does nothing that is not deliberate, the general policy against small-group Bible studies becomes pretty obvious.
April 27th, 2012 at 9:34 am
Kris- you are an excellent thinker. AoR lost something valuable and important in refusing to communicate with you.
Having said that, I think your questions can be easily answered by looking at SGM as a charming sociopathic guy who seduces women and ends up beating them up regularly, until maybe they finally leave after they need X Rays at the hospital. But all their friends and family think the guy is sooo wonderful and don’t really believe the girl when she tells them how bad he is in secret. I’ve seen this syndrome more than once in real life. It is easy to see how women get sucked into relationship with such an outwardly fantastic man, less easy to see why they stay when the abuse starts.
There are countless books out there on battered wife syndrome that describe the inner workings of the victims, and the enablers. The oppressed have all kinds of shame and inferiority no sense of worth, and probably were mistreated as children.
The enablers have their own set of selfish motivations. Usually they know they won’t be believed and will lose relationships over this. Better to be quiet and let the wife be battered.
I think AoR must not understand sociopathy. They admitted to being weak on handling sex abuse situations. Anybody else would have recognized the syndrome instantly.
This also might sound strange, but I see some of what goes on in churches like buying lottery tickets, and the capacity of humans for delusional hope. People with no money wasting countless dollars on that chance to win mega millions, even though they have less statistical chance than one grain of sand on the seashore as far as the eye can see. Maybe their abusive pastor or drunken husband will be the one that suddenly repents and changes and treats them wonderfully well. You can live a long time with unrealistic fantasy. The ability of humans to hope is both an incredibly marvelous and good thing, as well as a dangerous and fallen ability sometimes.
April 27th, 2012 at 9:58 am
Kris & Rorschach- The whole bible study conundrum speaks deeply about SGM’s mistrust in God and shows what they believe about pastoral authority. They seem to believe it’s entirely up to them to make sure the sheeple are well rounded theologically. Almost like people are barely saved if their doctrine isn’t in line. As if we do not possess the Holy Spirit at all. This is one example of a blatant display of unbelief in God.
I cannot speak for other churches, but it seems even CLC still has not fully grasped their error in pastoral authority. I hear apologies from leadership (rightly so) but I haven’t heard specifically that they see pastoral authority differently now and that the way they viewed things in the past were wrong, arrogant and hurtful to many. They misused their authority by keep people quiet, and ashamed by the questions people had. If anyone else seems to see a different trajectory in their beliefs about pastoral authority I would be happy to be corrected…
April 27th, 2012 at 10:01 am
Kris @98
I think the “WHY” has to do with the whole structure and functioning of most institutional churches as we see them today. I think there is great fear among leaders from one denomoniation to the next (and among “family of churches”) that people are walking out of church doors and not wanting to support “church” as we know it today. I’m pretty much there myself. I’d much rather gather in a living room with people and open my Bible than go sit and listen to a sermon. I’d rather give money to a good organiztion that is feeding the poor and providing medical care to the needy than pay a mortgage and utility bills for a church building. For the most part church has become a business and it does not look like the church that Jesus was building. I think this puts fear in every organization and MAN that has built itself around “churches.”
If the folks at AoR can’t spiritually see (I’m not saything they don’)the wreck at SGM then they have no business in the business. Here’s a thought — maybe they do see it, have no clue how to deal with it, are very glad they are finished and just want to walk away.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:06 am
QE2 -
It’s as if Jesus new the power of the Holy Spirit would be at work in people — fancy that!
April 27th, 2012 at 10:06 am
Izze,
Very acute thought. It’s kind of why I look at the paradoxical implementation that SGM has set up -- Calvinist in statement, but effectively Arminian in how they view the sheeple need to be kept from ruining themselves.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:18 am
Rorschach- Agreed. There have been many well thought out comments on this blog in particular about how SGM is far from following Reformed doctrine/traditions.
Kris/Guy- It’s been almost two business days since you posted the conversation publicly. Any word from AoR or Ted specifically?
April 27th, 2012 at 10:33 am
Bridget,
Have you read “Radical” by David Platt? I think you’ll like what he has to say based on your comments above.
A VERY thought provoking book on how we do church and what should Christianity look like.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:54 am
A year or two ago at the SGM church of I am a former member, the pastors stopped dictating the curriculum for care group meetings (which were almost always book studies) and encouraged the leaders to do Bible studies or whatever else they felt led to do. Definitely a step in the right direction. Funny thing, though, was that they made up Bible study documents that the CGL’s could pick from, complete with discussion questions and suggested answers.
April 27th, 2012 at 10:59 am
Kris @98,
I wonder if it is like a set of scales. The T4G see the good, and are told not to believe the bad. Each time they see someting a little bad it goes on the bad side of the scale, but the good side is still outweighing the bad. It isn’t till they see something major in their eyes (like embezzlement or adultery) that they’ll mentally allow much weight to be thrown in the bad side. All the “little” things they are hearing are not adding up in their minds and causing more weight to go on the bad side.
Until they are confronted with major irrefutable issues they will not allow the bad to outweigh the good.
April 27th, 2012 at 11:07 am
WiseAsSerpents, your post #88 was beautiful! Thank you for having the courage to share it with us and the courage to share it with AoR. God saw your courage and will remember it forever. Can’t wait to see you enjoy the fruits of your courage in eternity! (Sorry, I probably think about heaven way too much some days. But, it’s just going to be so kick butt awesome, how can I not!)
April 27th, 2012 at 11:51 am
Re Izze #108,
You used two phrases that really resonated with me, “distrust in God” and “unbelief.” I hadn’t really noticed before how often I’ve been struck by the unbelief implicit in some SGM actions and practices. This was true when I was part of it for twelve years (towards the end, especially) when it was PDI. It has been especially true as so much has come to light.
So I’d like to ask others what specific actions/practices have seemed to indicate unbelief/distrust in God. For me a primary one was the excessive concern with litigation/legal entanglement. I had personal experience with this during Noel’s story.
In general, I think that doing the simple right thing should not be hedged about with so many catch-phrases, caveats,cautions….”gospel implications.” The Gospel cannot be harmed by doing right.
I think of the rich, young ruler…(and a LOT of other parables.)
April 27th, 2012 at 12:29 pm
This irony may have already been mentioned -
In an indirect way, AOR has demonstrated the existence and effect of abuse in their reaction to the blogs. I’m assuming for the moment that there were occasional, inevitable, inaccuracies in the blogs. Look at how upset they got. Look at how unfair they thought it was. And this was for a relatively short period of time.
How would they have felt if this type of thing, but much worse, and always intentional, happened to them over years? They might even shake with anger and raise their fists.
If they had the ability to step back a little and observe their own behavior, they would have shown more understanding in their report for those who suffered, and saved their harshness for SGM, not the blogs.
April 27th, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Bridget #109 — I’ve been feeling this way about church for quite a while, too. The building seems like a waste of money that could be better used.
On another note, Harold Camping says the ‘church age’ is over and people should not participate. Now, everyone will think the opposite. Sad to say, we tend to judge comments by who makes them, rather than what the content is.
April 27th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
Phoenix- One example:
I believe making caregroup a mandatory occasion for members proves a distrust in God. The excuse used is “If we don’t make CG mandatory how will new members get hooked in with relationships?” or “How will we be able to keep track of existing members?”. My answer is simple. That’s not the Pastor’s responsibility. It seems that more often than not their answers start with “if we don’t..” rather than “God Will!”
April 27th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
Stunned #116:
I don’t think we can think about Heaven enough in this life.
There is, I believe, a kind of healing and inoculation so to speak, against false teaching when we fix our affections on Jesus and what He has (and is) preparing for us.
It’s like that song by Chris Rice “Deep Enough to Dream”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GQZeBjfXP4
I LOVE to dream like that.
We WILL be there soon!
Oh! Come Lord Jesus!
Come Quickly!
April 27th, 2012 at 1:12 pm
5years #107 said
- good analogy. I dunno, I am thinking I probably have a better chance of winning the mega millions than to see that “repenting” thing happening …..and I didnt even buy a ticket.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:17 pm
JeffB at 118 , Great comment.
:Approve:
ATC, Bristol, UK.
April 27th, 2012 at 1:48 pm
exCLCer -
I agree! -- But I’m not holding all Christendom to that analogy Though, at the moment, it fits many SGM leaders.
April 27th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Defender, thanks for the lovely encouragement. I’m looking forward to hanging out with you in heaven!
April 27th, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Stunned, this is your “official” invite to drop in and visit me at the “Thousand Hills Ranch”.
We’ll catch up and fellowship the Goodness of God. (Amidst all the cattle.)
;>}
April 27th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
I don’t think anyone has mentioned the message given by Don Devries, at CLC, two weeks ago. The sermon topic he was given to preach about was grumbling, and how the Israelites displeased God by grumbling in the desert. Of course, he likened it to grumbling in present-day circumstances of life.
To me, it appeared to be a passive-aggressive warning from the pastors, telling members to stop offering their opinions about reform in the church. Why else would this message be given at this time and in this context?
In it, Don contrasts grumbling with faith. I wonder if he doesn’t actually mean to tell the congregation to have faith in their pastors more than faith in God or, are both still the same thing in their world? It made me curious to know if CLC pastors still believe they “speak in the stead of God?”
I also wonder how one would go about finding out the answer to that question? Perhaps someone could slip some truth serum into the coffee at one of the Coffee Times with the pastors and ask them?
I would have to say, the inability to get real answers to real questions is one of the most frustrating aspects of SGM and her related people and churches.
April 27th, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Defender, I’ll be there!
PS. If I have things my way, you’ll be able to find me at this address when we’re up there:
In His Pen Pocket
Heaven
April 27th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Beautiful Lies,
I had the same thought as you: that Jared (and others have also expressed this here) will likely become the new Josh and I could easily see him relocating because this is done all the time within SGM. Didn’t his topic for next month at NEXT seem a little strange? The church is supposed to protect us? Really? I thought that was the Lord’s job. It just keeps getting more bizarre sounding the more I distance myself from it all.
April 27th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
Stunned, that will be easy to find.
Just find the closest place to His heart, and there you’ll be.
April 27th, 2012 at 3:36 pm
Heads up everyone, Brent Detweiler just posted around 3:45 EST and is considering civil action. I suspected this after the report came out.
April 27th, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Lee -
Thanks for that suggesion. I’ll check it out.
April 27th, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Regarding Brent’s latest post--how do you have a church court when there isn’t any polity that would govern one?
April 27th, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Defender,
You know how to make a person tear up. That is exactly where I want to be- as close to His heart as possible.
(So, in other words, look for God’s pocket to be wet as I cry a lot. What a job He’ll have “wiping away every tear”. Think they’ll have Bounty Heavy Duty in heaven?)
April 27th, 2012 at 4:57 pm
To Brent Detwiler:
Why? What is wrong with you?
Why on earth do you want to be reconciled to unrepentant hypocrites and liars? Why?
Why can you not see that God has delivered you from SGM, opened your eyes, and set your feet on a new and different path. Why can’t you give yourself 100% in whatever local church you go to and forget all this? Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? The Corinthians 6 verses DO apply, you are wrong. They apply precisely to this. You have a family, do you really want to dump tens or even hundreds of thousands into a lawsuit?
Brent, I beg you to seek help from a professional counselor. I am sure it must be awful to be treated this way and then on top of it have AoR toss all the victims aside and dismiss your careful and accurate records. It must hurt, it must be agonizing, but you need to LET IT GO. No, you are not helping people in SGM by this, they do not want to hear the truth and if you win the case they still won’t believe it. You (we) are the evil one(s) and SGM leaders are men of God, you can’t change that.
We appreciate all you have done, but time to move on. Let them go on in their game, same as every cult in history goes on. Get back to Jesus, the bible, maybe volunteer in some local outreach. You are a smart guy, teach at a school. Brother, the grief must be awful, but this is not the answer. You are still addicted to these men, even after all this time you cannot break free. Brother, I will beg God to deliver you.
April 27th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Stunned,I hear I’m good at making people cry….
I just remember you as the most Lovely woman who came to visit us and I am Blessed and Honored to have you as my Sister!!
AND His pockets will be lined with tissues, for you I’m sure. (But you won’t be crying for long.)
Speaking of making people cry..
5Years,
It hit me funny and I laughed till I cried.
It’s close to the wording I used in my AoR report as to why I have no interest in reconciliation with SGM.
I hope that if Brent is doing this, it is because he is following directions from God.
We’ll see.
April 27th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
@5years -- how do you know your discernment about Brent is correct? Is it sheerly on the basis that he will bring a civil suit, if he feels it to be legitimate? In that case, it seems your objection has to do with bringing a cult (let’s say) to justice as being more-or-less useless and not to God’s glory. If so, could you edify me biblically … you could well be right, but I can’t think of any illustrations. And I can think of a number of cults around us where people would have been saved from involvement with them if someone had taken them to court, as they should have …. btw, sexual abuse cases should surely be brought to court if justified, so why not wrongful termination and related character defamation?
Brent is quite correct that, biblically, God has given no warrant for His people to break the civil laws of governments instituted by Him and laws to which they agreed (e.g., the laws were not unChristian/unbiblical). To the contrary, if Christian organizations act unlawfully and are not called to account, how can they/we maintain any credible witness to the world?
To my mind, the biblical question is not whether Brent is harboring something, because that takes a supernatural gift to perceive (I am not belittling that, just being descriptive). The question is whether he has done everything he could, and still is, to be reconciled short of appealing to civil courts.
It seems to me that Brent has and is being faithful in that regard. That Brent is remarkably anal, detailed and tenacious is a fact, but not a sin last time I looked … and, in any case, falls into that same ‘discernment’ category which is authentic but apples-and-oranges to pursuing righteousness and justice biblically. Justice is, after all, a New as well as Old Testament mandate and God gives civil government a role to play in securing that which churches are not free to ignore as though they are spiritually superior to ‘secular’ government …. but as someone familiar with Reformed teaching, you know that, I’m sure.
April 27th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
“so why not wrongful termination and related character defamation?”
Simply stated;
More reading here --
http://thenewsherald.com/articles/2012/01/12/news/doc4f0f02d13fe40984834779.txt
Brent should know this, as hiding behind these sorts of protections, precedents, and decisions has been the SGM way for many years. ‘Clergy’ and Churches enjoy many exceptions and exemptions that are second only to claiming Diplomatic immunity.
Other fun reads -
http://www.minnesotaemploymentlawblog.com/2012/01/woman-fired-for-artificial-insemination-files-lawsuit.shtml
http://www.bononiemploymentlaw.com/2011/12/appeals-court-sided-with-california-church-in-wrongful-termination-suit.shtml
April 27th, 2012 at 7:28 pm
And we wonder why the AOR report was biased against the abused bloggers … (from Brents latest post)
“Some parts of the AoR report are good. Some parts are bad. Many critical parts that should have been included are entirely missing. That is unacceptable. A $400,000 study over nine months should have covered all the evidence. The report is biased and largely focused on the wrong issues.”
Silly us! We should have taken up a collection and given it to AOR! Maybe that would have put a greater focus on the SINNERS … Not the SINNED AGAINST!
April 27th, 2012 at 7:46 pm
:Wink: Per the Supreme Court in Unassim’s link:
Per Mathew Staver in the same article:
Now, in the case of SGM, what message was Brent trying to undermine? The one about positions of power having unlimited privilege, or the one where truth doesn’t matter?
:Wink:
April 27th, 2012 at 7:47 pm
Not sure how I got two winks in there.
April 27th, 2012 at 8:04 pm
Hello fellow “post-its” out there,
For those you’ve had a chance to digest the polity committee’s latest letter that went up today over at SGM Refuge, I have this response to it:
Alot of this has CJ’s name written all over it. He is the first name listed on the polity committee and you can be sure he is given preferential consideration over the formulation of the questions and the direction things are headed. For instance there’s this among their questions up for consideration in the coming months:
“Should former members be able to bring an accusation?” Notice it DOESN’T say, “CAN former members bring an accusation?” Wording is everything. This question has Brent Detweiler written all over it. They want to be SURE that mess NEVER happens again.
“Is SGM (a) a constituent organ of the Sovereign Grace church(es), (b) a subservient agent under the authority of the Sovereign Grace church(es), (c) an independent parachurch ministry, or (d) something else?” It just boggles the imagination that after 30 years they are asking themselves these types of questions and it answers for my husband and I, at least, why so often during our time within an SGM church, we often felt that changes happened willy-nilly, decisions made on the fly, like they really didn’t have a compass with which to guide themselves.
“To what extent can churches permissibly delegate (contractually or otherwise) ecclesiastical authority and/or mission activity to outside agents and organizations?” This is the, ‘Should we ever have to resort to hiring an outside entity like AoR, etc. again?’ question. I think the answer will likely be, “let’s just handle this ourselves.”
SO much can be gleaned about the direction they are heading in the way they word the questions. A very interesting read but sad in that I seriously doubt much with change.
April 27th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Epaphrus #137:
Get aclue. Brent has tried over and over again to open a dialogue with the “Evil Empire” to no avail. He tried the same thing with the sham recomciliation group with the same results. It has become quite obvious that he’s going to get nowhere in that area.
It seems obvious to me that the only avenue he has left to him is the courts. Quite personally I believe it’s going to take court action to wake the SGM folk up, if that ever does happen. When they see a mega-buck lawsuit staring them in the face, they just might trip all over themselves to effect restitution and reconciliation with Brent. That could trickle down to all the offended and abused just to forestall any other similar lawsuits. Then again, they could just stand their ground nomatter what rather than admit any wrong. Arrogance is like that.
April 27th, 2012 at 8:48 pm
The problem is that no one wants to communicate with Brent because he doesn’t keep things confidential. I can’t say as I blame them.
It’s very difficult to get the civil courts involved in religous matters.
April 27th, 2012 at 8:50 pm
I haven’t read or commented in a long time but I think it’s time — It’s time to move on. Yes, it could be the most screwed up situation ever (all of this) but is it really worth it? The time that you are invested in attempting to make reconciliation? Clearly, you are not going to get there this side of heaven! Give it up, move on and do something productive!!!! I’m not saying that this blog hasn’t been productive and I’m not talking to the authors of this blog necessarily, just everyone involved. You have proved your point. Long and hard. And I’m not against you! This blog actually helped to lead us to move on from the Sovereign Grace movement. I just say it’s time. It’s tiring. It’s old. Forgive and forget — if you can, even…but move on at the very least!
April 27th, 2012 at 8:59 pm
From today’s letter re: SGM Polity Committee and Process:
As I wondered (and feared), this sounds very much like there’s going to be a required “polity test” to be a SGM church.
April 27th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
On the previous topic of bible studies, I felt seriously confused when I fell into my SGM church and discovered none. In my background bible studies were encouraged. To discover a church that supposedly was biblical but that didn’t allow groups to study the bible….well I had to scratch my head. Say what you will about lack of women’s and men’s ministry, since in all honesty they aren’t something that the bible prescribes to fall under church authority. But to not only not encourage bible studies explicitly, but to not let groups just talk about the bible instead of dissecting the last weeks sermon? It smells bad to an outsider. Fortunately for me, even after several years in SGM I still felt for the most part like an outsider. The longer you stay the more numb you become.
SGM kind of reminds me of those visual riddle things. You know the pictures that you have to look at and look at, and maybe cross your eyes just so until you just see it the right way, and then the hidden image is revealed. The real secret image is hidden in the jumble of details, and it can be hard to see, but once you see it can’t be unseen. Some people just don’t see or don’t want to see. But the ones who see it are flailing around and pointing to the picture going “I can’t believe you dont see! It’s right there!”
April 27th, 2012 at 9:39 pm
Ozymandias #146:
I wonder how this new polity “test” is going to square with CLC’s non-staff elders ‘n deacons proposal (assuming it’s actually put into practice)? Are Josh and Co. ready for yet another fight? Would CeeJay and his SGM minions actually put up with elders who don’t depend on SGM for their livelihoods?
That phrase “Book of Church Order” is sure to please Big Dogs like Duncan. I can hear them now: “See how Presbyterian SGM is becoming!” Give me a break…
April 27th, 2012 at 9:51 pm
Persona #127 — The message you mention was at a small weekday morning gathering for those desiring to reach out to people in the workplace. This was in no way a “warning from the pastors.” Are you perusing the CLC website looking for something to find fault with?
April 27th, 2012 at 9:55 pm
Epaphras, of course I may be wrong.
But, at this point in time, Brent has how many posts on his blog? 95, 96 or so? Getting near one hundred.
To my recollection, and please correct me if I am wrong, Brent has never uttered one word about the sex abuse cases where perps get church support and victims become the problem. Those cases happened while he was part of the founding team that goes back to originally four Apostles (more A’s were added later).
Brent has not commented on all sorts of things that ought to make his former apostolic blood boil. In addition to the sex abuse, there are untold horror stories on this blog many of which happened under his apostolic tenure. It has been posted here that people have contacted him (within the last year) to try to reconcile and he backs out himself at the last minute.
I don’t know Brent personally. I can say that he spent at least 20 years at the top lording it over the flock like CJ and the others, and maybe as many as 7 years starting to see the problems with CJ, until he got kicked out.
I have to say I have mixed reactions to his posts. All of us have conflicting sides to our life with the old man of the flesh and new man of the spirit at war. Sometimes he seems to be a wise vessel of the Lord, but most other times he seems doggedly fixated on himself, him being wronged, his agenda for what Brent ought to have the right to.
In secret, is he pushing to see all the sex abuse cases made right and restitution granted? I don’t know. All I know is what I see on the blogs, and the focus still does not seem to be on the sheep he was called to watch over in his apostolic days.
I would be delighted to see a lawyer take on a class action suit for all the bungled SGM sex abuse victims. Of course I believe in the civil magistrate upholding justice. I in no way think all recourse to civil couts is wrong.
But Brent? This post? He has been denied reconciliation with CJ and the rest? Are you kidding me? Are you freaking kidding me? He has been denied due process and lied about and slandered. Yeah. That is true. So where is the outrage about all the degifted pastors with kids who lost their jobs for no good reason?
Hey, I could be wrong. He just seems so self focused. I think he needs serious counseling. Just my opinion. Its late, and I need to get off this subject and go on with my life. Right now I honestly think that if Brent had the chance to go back into SGM at the top level, he’d go for it. And for that reason I think he still does not see the truth that Josh Harris saw when Josh spoke of serious systemic problems through the entire organization- a systemic infection Brent is partly responsible for himself.