Ambassadors of Reconciliation Refuse All Reconciliation Attempts
The Ambassador of Reconciliation (AoR) Report to the Board of Directors of Sovereign Grace Ministries (April 10, 2012) raised many troubling concerns for me. Chief among them the hypocrisy of Ted Kober who serves as the President of AoR. After its release, I attempted to interact with Ted in private.
When those attempts failed, I sought the help of Jim Pappadeas (SGM Refuge), Kris (SGM Survivors), Mole, and Larry Tomczak. I tried to set up a meeting with Ted to discuss our concerns for his report. Ted did not respond to these initiatives either.
Yesterday, I wrote the Board of Directors for AoR. I brought my concerns to their attention and made them aware I’d be posting a public rebuke on my blog given Ted’s refusal to meet in private or follow his own teaching. I also presented my case against Bryce Thomas, the trial lawyer hired by SGM, who helped design the Three Panel Review that took place last December. I asked the AoR Board to take disciplinary action against Ted, Ed Keinath (co-author of the report), and Bryce for failing to follow the Standard of Conduct for Christian Conciliation.
I now bring this matter to the attention of those effected by the AoR Report and invite you to write Ted Kober (tkober@hisaor.org), Ed Keinath (crosslife@frontier.com), Bryce Thomas (brycethomas@charter.net) and the AoR Board of Directors (mail@hisaor.org) in a redemptive manner in obedience to the process outlined in Matthew 18:15-17.
I am confident Ambassadors of Reconciliation has done much good helping other groups experience reconciliation. Unfortunately, some of their efforts have produced greater suffering and division for those inside and outside of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
What follows is a chronological presentation of my/our unsuccessful attempts at reconciliation.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:33 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Offenses with Me
Importance: High
Hello Ted,
I just finished reading your report. I get the feeling there is a substantial list of undiscussed and unresolved issues in your heart toward me. This concerns me since you have never written or talked to me about any offenses you may have with me. In contradistinction, I have always talked and written to you about all my concerns. I’ve been open, honest and transparent about the faults/concerns I have perceived in your perspective, character, or approach.
Therefore, please highlight each section or sentence of your report where you have me in mind and send that to me. It is impossible to know who you are referring to in comments like “Another threatened to publicly humiliate and discredit us by posting extensive blogs on the web if we didn’t respond in certain ways by that person’s imposed short deadline.” I am glad to entertain your criticisms but I need to know which ones apply to me.
I’d appreciate your prompt response.
Thank you,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 10:29 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: RE: Offenses with Me
Importance: High
Please call me if you prefer to do this via a conversation. Today if possible. I need you to point out each statement in your report where you have me in mind. You have not come to me in private so I want to afford you that opportunity.
Sincerely,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:12 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: RE: Offenses with Me
Importance: High
In the report, you claim you “addressed sinful attitudes, words and actions of key individuals” but that is not true with me. We had two conversations. During those interactions you never addressed any attitudes, words or actions of mine as sinful. The subject never came up. The statement below is entirely untrue as it pertains to me. You have never come to me in private.
“The Ambassadors of Reconciliation team addressed sinful attitudes, words and actions of key individuals or leadership groups privately as Scripture requires. Some expressed fear that the AoR team would not confront key leaders or groups on individual actions that contributed to the conflicts. Others expressed their desires that the team would expose sins of key leaders or admonish them publicly. Just as this report does not publicly address the sins of individual members, neither does it publicly address the sins of individual leaders. However, AoR did address such issues with key leaders privately.”
After our second conversation on January 25, you wrote me on February 4. In that letter you ask me to consider several questions but you did not correct me or reprove me for sin except for one passing sentence. That is, “Moreover, I don’t often see the love and forgiving heart in you that your Lord Jesus has shown you.” That is the only corrective statement you made and it was not something you ever talked to me about in person. In fact, you never followed up after February 4 about any of the questions you posited for my consideration even though I wrote you about the contents of your letter. You cut off all communication and refused to interact with me.
Here is the point. You have never corrected, confronted, reproved, rebuked, or addressed any “sinful attitudes, words and actions.” You asked some questions in writing but you never told me my attitudes, words and actions were sinful. If you believe I have sinned against you or others, you have not told me so. As such you have flagrantly disobeyed your own teaching. You did not come to me in private. Even more seriously, you make the false claim in your report that you obeyed Scripture when in fact you disobeyed Scripture as it pertains to me. That is totally misleading.
Ted, I have aught with you. Please leave your altar and call me. The first thing I want to know regards which comments in your report are directed at me. The second thing I want to know is why you never came to me in private. You have never talked to me about any sins you feel I have committed.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:00 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Kris and Jim
You did not come to me in private. Did you go to Kris (Survivors) or Jim (Refuge) to correct them in private before posting your report?
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:26 PM
To: Kris; Jim @ SGM Refuge
Subject: Ted
Did Ted ever talk to you in private and correct or confront you for the sins he accuses you of in the report?
##
From: Jim @ SGM Refuge
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 11:38 PM
To: Brent Detwiler; Kris
Subject: Re: Ted
We talked privately, but the blogs were a very small part of our conversation. There was zero correction. He broke his own ministry guidelines.
##
From: Kris
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 12:22 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted
No. Never. And I did something I never do – I actually initiated a conversation with him via email, offering to be of assistance in any way I could. He never responded to my email.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:08 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Great Hypocrisy
Importance: High
Ted, you have acted with great hypocrisy toward Jim, Kris and me. You need to make this right. See their responses [above].
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 8:51 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Are You an Ambassador of Reconciliation?
Importance: High
Ted,
In your report you make the following statement:
“Our observation is that the power of worthless talk (Ephesians 4:29 if) and sinful judging (Matthew 7:1-2; James 3:5-12; 4:11-12) was greatly exacerbated by those writing and reading blogs and widely distributed emails. Coupled with the falsehoods and exaggerations about AoR, our team members and work were the threats and condemning words sent to us. Based on false information, people made assumptions, misquoted and twisted our words and statements, and made D**ning statements against us.” (p. 10)
The facts show you did not come to me, Jim or Kris. I’d like to know if you went to anyone in private. Did you attempt to restore these individuals in a spirit of gentleness (Gal 6:1) as you are apt to point out to others? Or did you leave them in their sins and give them no opportunity for repentance? You make no reference to any attempts to act as an ambassador of reconciliation. It appears you are content to make vague accusations on a website but are unwilling to approach such individuals in a biblical manner.
You are completely at odds with your teaching if you have not gone to these people and acted as a peacemaker. I also wonder if you are exaggerating the magnitude of the sins against you since you provide no evidence. What falsehoods? What exaggerations? What threats? What condemning words? What false information? What D**ning statements? Without evidence I am concerned these kinds of statements may constitute “worthless talk” and “sinful judging.” You spend a lot of time in the report highlighting how people have sinned against you. I am not sure why you felt the need to do so. Are you bitter or resentful?
Most importantly, however, have you contacted each of these people regarding the accusations above to work out your offenses? Have they been given the opportunity to respond?
I am still waiting to hear from you. Please tell me all the places in the report where you have me in mind.
Regards,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 9:47 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Use of Email
Given your position on the use of email and your counsel to SGM, why didn’t you call me regarding the “sensitive issues” contained in your February 4 email? From my perspective, you did not follow your own admonition. Do you agree?
“It seemed apparent to us as outsiders that leaders within SGM have made extensive use of email for rather sensitive or confidential communications. While this may be an expedient way to communicate when key leaders work from scattered locations, the extensive use of this medium in sensitive communications seems unwise to us…. Matters of confronting others about sin, discussing issues with legal implications, discussing employment or supervisory information, confessing sins or forgiving others, and other similar communications should be done in person or documented in more formal written communications. Email tends to be less formal and inadequate for addressing sensitive issues.” (p. 15)
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:14 AM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Mole
In your report, you appear to have Mole in mind as one of those individuals who has sinned against you and SGM? Is that correct? If so, have you gone to him in private to confront his perceived sin and be reconciled?
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 2:57 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Great Travesty
Dear Ted,
Here is your authoritative exhortation to the Sovereign Grace Board of Directors about going to be reconciled. It is found in the Consultation Report from last August:
“Before engaging the help of other Christians (such as through Ambassadors of Reconciliation), we remind the SGM Board members of their biblical responsibilities to initiate action for reconciliation.
“Note that the direct teachings of Jesus and the Apostle Paul urge us to go and be reconciled to those with whom we have disputes. It does not matter whether we believe we have been sinned against (Matthew 18:15), the other person is entrapped in sin (Galatians 6:1), or if the other person has something against us (Matthew 5:23-24). We are to make every effort to make peace (Romans 12:18; see also Hebrews 12:14).
“As we consider these and other verses in the full context of the Bible, we see that “going” to be reconciled requires more than email, more than blogs, more than letters, more than phone calls – it requires going to meet face-to-face. Note that God so loved the world that he sent his only Son (John 3:16). Jesus the Christ humbled himself to become flesh (Philippians 2:1-11) and come to earth in person to dwell among us (John 1:1, 14).
“Note also that our responsibility to “go to be reconciled” is not excused simply because another indicates that he does not want to meet. God reconciled us to himself “while we were yet sinners” (Romans 5:6-11). God did not wait until we desired for him to come.
“It is obvious to us as we read the documents written by Brent Detwiler and met with you that there are broken relationships between Brent Detwiler and C.J. Mahaney, between Brent Detwiler and individual members (current and former) of the Board of Directors, and between Brent Detwiler and the entire Board of Directors. According to Scripture, it does not matter who caused the offense. When relationship is broken, it is incumbent upon every believer in Christ to “go and be reconciled.”
“Scripture does not excuse us because we are fearful that our words might be twisted. Scripture does not excuse us if we think the other person might not listen. Scripture does not excuse us if the other party indicates in emails that he will not meet with us. Scripture does not excuse us if the person does not live in our town. Scripture does not excuse us if the other party has widely shared his complaints against us. Scripture does not excuse us if the whole world reads about the complaints against us in some public media. People find all kinds of excuses not to obey the teachings of Scripture, but our social practices and customs are not what guide God’s people in such matters.” (Ted Kober, Consultation Report, August 24, 2011, pp. 13-14)
My question is simple. Why haven’t you followed any of your own demands? In relation to me, Kris from SGM Survivors, and Jim Pappadeas, you have made no effort to walk in the light and be reconciled. I suspect the same is true of Mole but you have not answered my questions regarding him. In all seriousness, have you made any effort to meet with anyone you speak against in the report? Have you taken any action to contact those with whom you have offenses?
The majority of your offenses go back to August-November of last year. You’ve had months to pursue reconciliation. Once again, why haven’t you followed your directives in relation to me, Kris, Jim, Bob and others? Per your admonitions, you should have been on a plane to meet with each of us months ago. Furthermore, why haven’t you written me as requested? Why haven’t you called me as requested? Why haven’t you offered to meet with me? I am ready to do all of the above.
Ted, you have done nothing you have taught thousands of others in relation to us. This is a great travesty and needs to be corrected.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Date: Fri, April 20, 2012 7:03 am
To: Mole
Subject: Ted Kober
Has Ted ever come to you in private to confront or correct sins he believes you have committed against SGM or himself?
##
From: Mole
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 9:15 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
No, why do you ask?
Mole, BSCJ, QMHP
Family Counselor
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:41 AM
To: Mole
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
Have you ever talked to Ted or Ed [Keinath]? Did you meet with either of them last November at CLC? If so, did they ever register any concerns for you?
##
From: Mole
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:45 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
Marsha and I were told by another couple who interviewed with A of R that their counselor had indicated with dismay and shock, that in fact, 104 pastors had come forward in an effort to expose SGM for their abuse.
Our interviewer [Ed Keinath] was moved to tears as we shared [our] story. He gave every indication that he completely sympathized and understood the tragedy of our situation. When we were finished with the interview I looked out the small window of the office door and saw Gene and Liz sitting there. I asked the interviewer to please escort Gene and Liz down the hall so we could leave without interacting with them. He did so and said, “I absolutely understand.”
##
From: Mole
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:58 PM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: A of R
Brent…. Marsha reminded me that at the end of our session with Ed, he asked me if I would be willing participate in a meeting in order to address concerns about SGM. This was yet another indication from A of R that they were taking our complaints seriously. Our hopes were very high when we left. Unfortunately, I never heard from anyone from A of R again. Looks like it will stay that way.
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 4:19 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Follow Up on Mole
Bob met with your associate, Ed Keinath in November at the Pastors Conference. Ed only empathized with Bob. He did not confront him on anything. No one from AoR has ever brought any concerns to Bob’s attention. Just the opposite. I hope you did not have him in mind in your report. I await your clarification. Did you?
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 6:43 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Take Along One or Two Others – Matthew 18:16
Ted,
I wanted to talk or meet with you in private in order to show you your fault and win you over (Matt 18:15). I’ve waited five days for a response of any kind but you could not take 5 minutes to call me or two minutes to text me. You should have expressed eagerness, if not a willingness, to meet with me.
I’ve written you numerous times over the past week. I asked to talk with you. I asked to know what parts of your report are in reference to me. I pointed out your dishonesty in saying you addressed sinful attitudes, words and actions with me in private when you did not. I pointed out your hypocrisy in not coming to me when offended at me. I pointed out your hypocrisy in relation to Kris and Jim for the same thing. I asked for an explanation on your use of email in raising “sensitive issues” contrary to the counsel you have given others. I asked whether you have gone to anyone with whom you have offenses. I’ve told you your sins in print. I’ve asked to do this in person. In spite of all this, you have made no effort to “leave your gift at the altar” and “settle matters quickly” with a “brother [who] has something against you.” (Matt 5:23-26.)
Ted, you have grievously sinned against me, specific others, the abused, the churches of SGM, and the larger Body of Christ. Therefore, I have asked Kris (SGM Survivors), Jim (SGM Refuge) and Mole to appeal for your repentance. I also asked them to join me in meeting with you per the teaching of Matthew 18:16. As is obvious in your report, you believe many people have sinned against you (and SGM) and yet you have not gone to them. We also believe you have sinned against us. For example, you confronted us in your public report but never came to us in private. I assume you justified doing so by leaving out our names but it is readily apparent who you had in mind. That amounts to duplicity.
Ted, you have set a terrible example for one who teaches others on peacemaking and the pursuit of reconciliation. You have not been a conciliator. You have brought more division. To be honest, I am concerned you hold sinful anger in your heart toward us and others. This much I know for certain; you have repeatedly violated Matthew 5:21-26, Matthew 7:1-5, Matthew 18:15, Romans 12:18, Galatians 6:1 and Hebrews 12:14. I hope you will repent to us in private and then make public restitution. Please let me know by Monday if you are willing to meet with us or talk to us using Skype. Then we can set a date and make arrangements. If Kris, Jim or Bob are unable to participate, I will provide other witnesses as required by Scripture.
Please show me the simple dignity of a response. Sinners do that much.
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:37 PM
To: Ted Kober
Subject: Please Contact Me Today
Please don’t let the day pass without calling or writing to set up a time to meet with us for reconciliation. As I said before, I am glad for you to point out in the report where you had me in mind and then tell me my faults.
Sincerely,
Brent
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 4:41 PM
To: Jim Pappadeas; Kris; Mole
Subject: An Appeal to Ted Kober
Importance: High
Dear Jim, Kris and Bob,
I’ve repeatedly attempted to contact Ted Kober. He has been unresponsive. Though he shows no interest, would you be willing to meet or talk with Ted in accordance with the second step of redemptive discipline outlined in Matt 18:15-17? I believe he has sinned against us and others. Kris, we can make special arrangement for you if you are unable to join us in person or prefer not to use Skype.
I’ve limited the scope of my correction in addressing Ted for now. There are some good parts in his report. There are some bad parts. Mostly, there are missing parts. I believe Ted has sinned in other ways but I will address those additional matters in private and give him the opportunity to respond.
For now, I’d appreciate your assistance in helping Ted to see his hypocrisy, unwillingness to attempt private reconciliation, and public slander having not come to us first. You are also welcome to share your general perspective on his report.
Bob has already provided me a statement to send Ted. Jim and Kris, would you do the same? It can be short. I will also ask Larry Tomczak for his perspective on the report. I’d like to send them to Ted tomorrow if possible.
I know we are not in habit of communicating with each other but I felt it important that we collectively reach out to Ted, appeal for his repentance, and share with him our perspectives.
I’ve included my private correspondence with Ted below. I plan to post our correspondence this week if he is unresponsive and ask others to reach out to him and Ed Keinath and appeal for their repentance. I will also contact the Board of Directors for Ambassadors of Reconciliation.
Thanks for your help.
Brent
##
From: Jim @ SGM Refuge [mailto:jim@sgmrefuge.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 9:29 PM
To: Brent Detwiler; Kris; Mole
Subject: Re: An Appeal to Ted Kober
Importance: High
I would love to interact with Ted regarding his condemnation and misrepresentation of my blog. As AoR’s primary blog cheerleader, I’m surprised my efforts were ignored by Ted. I’m not hurt or offended, just surprised.
I am greatly disappointed that Ted was apparently offended by the perceived sin of those abused by SGM leaders, and felt the need to add to their pain with his very public condemnation. I’m really having a hard time wrapping my head around such a blatantly hurtful act coming from the president of an organization that calls itself Ambassadors of Reconciliation.
If Ted honestly cares at all about reconciliation, he should publicly repent to the abused, as he has now joined the ranks of the abusers. His actions bear no resemblance to peace making.
Grace,
Jim
##
From: Kris [mailto:kris@sgmsurvivors.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 8:23 PM
To: Brent Detwiler
Cc: Guy
Subject: RE: An Appeal to Ted Kober
Hi Brent –
Our policy has always been that we want to remain anonymous. Although we were very disappointed with the way that AoR chose to go after “the blogs” as relentlessly as they did, without attempting even a simple response to the emails I sent, in which I offered my help, I don’t really feel like we need to participate in any sort of reconciliation process with anyone – at least not the sort of process that the AoR people would expect. We would not wish to speak on the phone or Skype with anyone. We’re happy, however, to have you pass on the following statement to the AoR folks:
To whom this may concern:
As random bystanders who were ourselves thrust unwittingly into the midst of SGM’s problems back in late 2007, we definitely sympathize with the magnitude of the job with which the AoR organization was tasked when hired to explore SGM’s weaknesses and failures and attempt to bring healing to SGM’s victims.
Much has already been said on the Survivors site in response to the report which AoR released recently. If I were to summarize our readers’ reactions, I’d say that many were very disappointed with the way so much of the report’s focus seemed to be upon “the blogs” and the (perceived) sinfulness of those who had spoken out about the way they’d been harmed by SGM. It came across quite clearly in their report that the AoR folks had taken personal offense with “the blogs” early on and never bothered to dig more deeply to try to find out WHY AoR was met with suspicion. Consequently, AoR is – ironically – guilty of committing the very same sins toward blogs and bloggers that they themselves had found so off-putting. The AoR representatives felt free in their report to vent their disdain toward “the blogs” without ever having communicated with anyone from SGM Survivors. (And this, of course, was despite the fact that I’d made at least a couple of efforts to engage with Mr. Kober via email back in December and offered to help AoR in any way I could.)
Also, since it is my understanding that AoR was hired to examine and evaluate Sovereign Grace Ministries, NOT “the blogs” or SGM’s victims, it was especially bizarre to see so many peevish references to all the ways in which bloggers and SGM’s victims did not meet AoR’s expectations.
That being said, I can truly say that AoR’s report was, unfortunately, essentially what I had expected it to be. I’m sorry that that turned out to be the case, but I can understand why a “reconciliation” business with only the most rudimentary outsider’s understanding of SGM’s history and culture would lack the perspective and the knowledge to look beyond SGM leaders’ pretty words and shining surface behavior and see how twisted the organization actually has been.
We don’t want anything from AoR. But if they would like to grow from this experience, I would suggest that they consider the ways they failed SGM, SGM’s victims, and themselves by being so quick to accuse bloggers of sins without taking the time to explore more deeply where the bloggers are coming from – and why they themselves felt it was OK to castigate “the blogs” in their report without first following their own rules for conflict resolution.
Blessings,
Kris
##
From: Mole
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:45 AM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: RE: Ted Kober
As most people understand, it is extremely difficult for anyone who has been abused to report the offense, even to the proper authorities for a myriad of reasons (fear of retaliation, fear of more abuse, ostracism, fear of revisiting the feelings and emotions relevant to the abuse, embarrassment, shame, etc.). Everyone who shared their stories of abuse with A of R were hoping that by entrusting their story to the perceived “proper authority,” in this case A of R, justice and resolution would occur. The very last thing abused individuals expected was for the proper authority to essentially turn on them. This is a great travesty. These people are now doubly harmed and have had emotional and psychological problems aggravated by their experience with A of R.
Our interviewer [Ed Keinath] was moved to tears as we shared [our] story. He gave every indication that he completely sympathized and understood the tragedy of our situation. When we were finished with the interview I looked out the small window of the office door and saw Gene and Liz sitting there. I asked the interviewer to please escort Gene and Liz down the hall so we could leave without interacting with them. He did so and said, “I absolutely understand.”
Personally, Marsha and I feel betrayed. We were told by another couple who interviewed with A of R that their counselor had indicated with dismay and shock, that in fact, 104 pastors had come forward in an effort to expose SGM for their abuse. He gave every indication that he completely sympathized and understood the tragedy of our situation. When we were finished with the interview I looked out the small window of the office door and saw Gene and Liz sitting there. I asked the interviewer to please escort Gene and Liz down the hall so we could leave without interacting with them. He did so and said, “I absolutely understand.”
Prior to the interviews starting I wrote A of R asking them to reconsider the venue for the interviews because they were asking the abused to come back to the place that represented where the abuse occurred. I also mentioned the Pastors Conference was simultaneously being held where those reporting abuse would likely see their abusers face to face (which of course they already knew). In light of the emotional trauma this would likely engender in those reporting abuse, I asked them to reconsider where they had chosen to do the interviews. They ignored this request (which further demonstrates and lack of appreciation and knowledge in dealing with abused people).
Looking back, now that the report has come out, I am convinced A of R simply did not and does not comprehend what has happened to those who have experienced abuse at the hands of SGM. I’m afraid rather than resolve any problems or being ambassadors of reconciliation, they have stirred up a hornet’s nest and are complaining as to why they are being stung.
Thanks,
Bob
##
From: Larry Tomczak [mailto:1larrytomczak@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 5:41 PM
To: Brent Detwiler
Subject: Re: An Appeal to Ted Kober
To whom it may concern:
I have been asked my thoughts on the AoR report. First, I appreciate all the hard work that went into this project dealing with very sensitive matters in scores of people’s lives. I trust AoR was well compensated.
Second, after waiting and praying for almost a year regarding this endeavor (regularly not daily), I was EXTREMELY disappointed with the results. I could scarcely believe what I was reading. I believe multitudes share this perspective.
Third, my wife and I believe the report was a serious disservice to scores of people who invested incredible amounts of time and effort to serve the AoR team. Doris and I gave over 250 hours to prepare for our contribution in addition to travel time and the days given to the interview. Addressing the illegal, immoral and documented blackmail plus the reprehensible conduct that shattered our reputation, relationships and family ties (plus our livelihood) was afforded a dismissive SIX sentences in the report! Unbelievable.
Finally, we are of the opinion that if the SGM leaders had simply done the report on their own, they would have been more forthright and harder on themselves than this most favorable AoR document.
When we shared our experience with Ted and his assistant, one wiped away tears and the other dropped his head in shocking dismay at our traumatic experience, manipulation, falsehoods and numerous examples of unChristlike behavior we experienced that could have destroyed our Christian lives as a family of six. We, like hundreds of others who experienced spiritual abuse from SGM leaders, now wonder if some of the apologies and asking of forgiveness will have to suffice.
We love you Ted and the team but inquire if your labors represent the accurate picture of the systemic problems that multitudes hoped would be addressed and corrected so SGM could begin a new season in humility and integrity.
Trusting God’s sovereign grace, I am, yours in His service,
Larry Tomczak
##
From: Brent Detwiler
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:14 AM
To: Ted Kober
Cc: Jim Pappadeas; Kris; Mole; Larry Tomczak
Subject: Private Appeals Continue
Importance: High
Dear Ted,
It has been over a week since I first asked you to call me. I don’t understand how you can reject all my attempts to engage you. I believe you have sinned against me and I am happy to hear how you believe I’ve sinned against you. I’ve sincerely sought to engage you in a redemptive and biblical manner but you appear obstinate in your rejection of all attempts at reconciliation.
Jim Pappadeas, Mole, Larry Tomczak and I would like to meet with you. We all have concerns for your Report to the Board of Directors of Sovereign Grace Ministries from April 10, 2012. We would like to discuss our concerns with you personally.
In obedience to Scripture and for your godly good, I’ve also asked these men to join me in helping you see how you have sinned against us and others. I’ve included their appeals and perspectives [above] but this is inadequate. We also need to meet in person. As it stands Ted, you are rebelling against the commands of Scripture and living contrary to everything you have taught and demanded of others.
I have many things to say about the report regarding inaccuracies (e.g. AoR’s confidentially requirement), bias, unfactual assertions, and dereliction of duty. That is, how you largely failed to address what you were tasked to do. There are some good and bad parts in the report but the most important parts (e.g., C.J. and the Board’s deceit) are left out. I will write you in private about these matters and give you the opportunity to correct my perspectives before I share them at large. The report is public. It requires a public response.
Of greatest importance for now is your failure to meet, hear our offenses, or pursue reconciliation. Your indifference undermines all your credibility and the entire ministry of which you are the President. If you have not done so already, send my previous appeals to your Board of Directors along with this correspondence. I hope they will reprove you and hold you accountable to the most basic tenets of the organization.
Ted, I have faithfully sought to obey Scripture in my pursuit of you. Please text, email, or call me today. I’d like to keep this matter confined to Jim, Kris, Bob, Larry and me. Whether I appeal to a wider audience is up to you. Contact me by the end of the day so we can set up a time to meet in the near future.
God’s grace rest upon you.
Brent
### EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING POSTSCRIPT:
I would add that my own interview with Ed Keinath also was in complete contradiction to what AoR published. Ed told me that since last summer he and Ted had been concerned about the the board’s blind devotion to CJ. He also expressed whole-hearted agreement when I indicated that at the heart of SGM’s problems was a culture of selfish-ambition. Ed also indicated that he and Ted estimated that about 20-30 churches within SGM were already prepared to leave SGM.
I don’t pretend to know why the report does not match what was communicated to many of us but the disharmony between what we heard with our own ears and what was published casts a significant cloud of suspicion over the report and the SGM leadership.
I plead with you that if any of you fear God and know why this disharmony exists that you would come forth.
Jenn Grover
Pittsburgh, PA
May 2nd, 2012 at 6:42 pm
OK Diane, I took the bait and googled it.
http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com/2011/05/marriage-part-2-with-letter-to-ed.html
You can come wipe me up off the floor now.
Oh Lord, come quickly.
May 2nd, 2012 at 6:49 pm
Regarding ‘masculine Christianity’, and Horton’s article in particular: I’m reminded of something I heard Matt Chandler say in a sermon. (in my words)He said he could have messages on how to be a good, Godly husband/man or good, Godly wife/woman, or how to parent your kids, but really what he needs to teach is how to get to know God and His awesomeness and greatness and how he responds to us and how he sees man/woman and deals with him. The better we know God, the more we become like Him in all areas. That’s what makes a difference. And that goes for male and female, young, old and in-between.
Whoever posted the link to Horton’s article — I made a copy of it to share with others, thanks.
May 2nd, 2012 at 7:05 pm
AMEN, Oswald!!
May 2nd, 2012 at 7:05 pm
JeffB, #300,
As a Jewish Believer in Jesus (a member of the Remnant of Israel), I send out a resounding AMEN brother!
There are so many levels of false teaching in the layers of masculinity and patriarchy which leads into dominionism and the false theology of British Israelism. It is one of circular reasoning which leads to belief in the wrong basics and laying of a shaky foundation. False foundations build skewed church purpose.
When one has an understanding of Israelology, the Church comes into clear focus and purpose. But I haven’t found the SGM has spent any time delving into the topic of Israelology and, because of that, I find they are lacking in a clarity of Theology.
ATC, that service sounds lovely! Alas, I haven’t been in a service like that in decades.
May 2nd, 2012 at 7:09 pm
JeffB, I understood that you weren’t calling these guys masculine, nor were you pointing to them as any example to follow. Thanks for clarifying, though, in case I had misunderstood.
Oh, how I long for the day when pastors point people to Jesus and not to other HUMANS as AnY kind of example.
May 2nd, 2012 at 7:12 pm
5 years:
The reason I posted my comment was because it relates to Kris’ excellent observation:
“It’s like they all do that for one another – shield one another and pump one another up. It’s like, if you technically affirm certain doctrines about salvation, sinfulness, complementarianism, and required Christian lifestyle, you’re in. And if you attract any kind of book-buying, conference-attending following, you’re WAY in, to the point where all your oddities and foibles (and sometimes even downright kooky opinions/positions, or even abusive behaviors) will be minimized and overlooked. Your image will be protected no matter what.”
And since there were several comments about Wilson and his slavery book I thought someone would bring up the NSA scandal since that happened around the same time as the plagiarism controversy-if I remember reading correctly. I won’t comment about it again because it is not my intent to fixate on this. However, here is one site I will link which has the relevant court documents if anyone wishes to research further. How a “minister” can marry off a convicted pedophile on life parole (must never be alone with children-ever) to a young woman in his church via a courtship scenario is beyond me. You can google the wedding video as well and see Wilson officiating with another minister in which prayers were offered for the blessing of children for the couple.
http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/
May 2nd, 2012 at 7:32 pm
Diane,
Like I said, the similarities are amazing.
I’m with you, 5years…Lord come quickly! I was just reading on the blog you posted.
These guys are sick. SICK, SICK, SICK!
May 2nd, 2012 at 7:44 pm
The author of that blog describes Doug Wilson well in her most recent post…
Sound familiar?
May 2nd, 2012 at 8:15 pm
JeffB -
Don’t know if MH is still at WMWest but there are those who were/are there who espoused an extremely narrow view of “church”. If you didn’t agree with them, you weren’t in the True Church with them. Plus, back in the day MH and the gang on White Horse Inn snarked at Arminians and those less than 6 or 7 pointers. That may have changed; I haven’t listened in several years.
A former Calvinist myself, I find MH’s brand and Reformed Theology generally without taste. MHOO.
Shibboleth, sibboleth, potato, but not potatoe,
Former SG Pastor
May 2nd, 2012 at 8:33 pm
Stunned said…
Amen, sister!!!!!!!!!!
Immediate red flags go up with me when I encounter any man that talks masculinity, lust, and modesty. Those three things tell me the man has “issues” -- keep your daughters and children away from him.
May 2nd, 2012 at 9:29 pm
ATC #297 — This sounds like the kind of meeting I would pray I would find in my area. Where the Holy Spirit is always present and active, not a show, and not present ONLY during a healing service or other special meeting. He doesn’t prophesy only through ‘The Prophecy Team’. He is in all, and through all, as He wills.
May 2nd, 2012 at 10:18 pm
This is a comment submitted by Ozymandias:
May 2nd, 2012 at 10:38 pm
In my early 20′s I traveled in a lot of IFB circles, and they were known for their patriarchial beliefs. In one particular church I recall overhearing some comments from a pastor’s wife, and I quickly understood that this pastor/husband wasn’t quite as in charge as he thought he was or at least what he represented from the pulpit. This left a lasting impression on me as a young man. Since that time other experiences on top of that one have convinced me that anytime a man is beating his chest about how much in charge he is that he is in reality just over-compensating. I’m Complementarian, but on this question I don’t think it comes down to doctrine or theology. I’ve known some very liberal men who on paper would be for all the feminist agenda, but privately are very chauvinist. Being secure enough in your manhood to be able to treat a woman/wife as an equal partner is not so much about your doctrinal belief as it is your being at peace with yourself.
May 2nd, 2012 at 10:52 pm
Interesting info about Doug Wilson and the pedophile he helped….
“Doug Wilson has written that he believes Sitler was delusional when he was molesting children. Wilson has no training in psychology or counseling, not even ministerial training. Wilson is not ordained. In response to criticism that he did not warn his congregation or the greater Moscow community in an adequate or timely fashion, Wilson writes: “I am a pastor. I cover up sins for a living.”
Is this what pastors do? Is this what reporters do? The Sitler and Wight cases were not broken by the local news media: they were first exposed on a local blog. Many in the community — and many in Christ Church — first heard about both Sitler and Wight on Moscow’s Vision 2020, an Internet chat group.”
———and did you catch that shout out to a local blog? :)
http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/9225/C136/L136
May 2nd, 2012 at 11:01 pm
I have a lot of thoughts going around in my head regarding the culture of the male fraternity and how it relates to the circle of well known men in ministerial circles. Someone could write an entire thesis of the psychology of this culture and how it operates. I’ll try to compress my thoughts into a somewhat short post. My first exposure to this culture was in IFB circles. A group of men come to be known as the recognized leaders within a movement. All the other men admire this group and want their approval. This gives the men who are recognized as leaders a lot of power and influence. They can literally make or break you. Entrance into the membership of these groups is difficult, but when they think someone is gathering a significant amount of influence among the laity they want to bring this pastor/minister into this leadership group so they can co-opt them and make sure they keep them (and their followers) within the fold. My time in IFB was in the early 80′s and pre-internet. One of the ways you could tell who this select group of leadership was by who was featured in the various publications, and who headlined the various conferences. Most of the men made sure to use the same catch-phrases and cliche’s so everyone would know they were all validating each other. I don’t have a lot of experience in Reformed Circles because although I adhere to Reformed Theology most of my study has been on my own and apart from recognized teachers and authors, but I can see some of the same aspects in some Reformed circles as I saw in IFB days, but it doesn’t appear to be as bad. From my experience in Charismatic circles you have the same culture, but its more decentralized with a lot of splinter groups and is more scattered.
I think it can be harder for women to comprehend how this dynamic works, because it is a thoroughly male dynamic and has to do with how men get their self esteem and seek their identity. Boys view manhood through the lens of whoever the most prominent men are in their lives growing up. If boys don’t get a positive self-image from their dads then they seek it wherever they can. In inner cities this can translate to boys looking up to gang members who seem to have power and influence in their neighborhoods. In religious circles young men look to whoever seems to be on top of the Spiritual Totum Poles. A healthy Pastor/Minister does not seek to draw attention to themselves or their own manhood, but they point people to Jesus Christ and HIS manhood. Unhealthy pastors/ministers on the other hand draw attention to themselves and how manly they are.
Doug Wilson does come very close to the Theonomist culture made famous by Rushdooney, and in that group the leading men are almost revered. It’s the only group where I have seen an even stronger worship of these male leaders than in the IFB culture. As far as how it applies to SGM I can only speculate based on what I’ve read. If the portrayal here is accurate of the dynamics between Josh Harris and C.J. Mahaney then you guys need to be seriously praying for Josh Harris. One of the things that happens within these cultures is that if there is ever a dispute a person like C.J. is going to make sure he shores up support among whoever occupies of the power structures of their particular circle. Once they get that support they wield it against whoever they see as a threat. This can be very very intimidating if you’re on the receiving end.
Lots of thoughts, but trying to keep it brief….
May 2nd, 2012 at 11:25 pm
Re: Wilson and other pastors who don’t do the right thing concerning child molesters, and make up rules as they go along. How can they be this blind or stupid, or maybe it’s arrogance that they think they know better.
Could it be that the Holy Spirit has left them?
Read about King Saul when the ‘Spirit of the Lord departed from him’, after having ‘rushed upon him’ at the beginning of his rein. He arrogantly abused his authority and did what was not according to God’s leading through Samuel.
And also Samson, one of the OT Judges. He began to think he was ‘all of that’ and after Delilah finally knew the secret of his strength and had his head shaved, he was about to show his strength as he had at other times, but he didn’t know ‘the Lord had left him’.
OT stories have a lot to teach us about God’s ways concerning what he hates. and we know that God does not change either in justice or in mercy.(or any other attribute)
May 3rd, 2012 at 5:24 am
I’ve formed my opinions of Doug Wilson based on the fruit I’ve observed over the past two decades produced by those who follow him (a rather large following on the east coast).
It’s “bad fruit,” VERY bad fruit, and it looks and smells very similar to that produced in SGM.
May 3rd, 2012 at 6:10 am
So, Doug Wilson says the pedophile was delusional when he molested a kindergarten age child, and Riccucci says the pedophile was ‘attracted to the women she was becoming’ about an 11 year old child..Why do these guys feel the need to minimize and excuse such horrific sins, but want to condemn others for what they deem ‘gossip and slander’, or ‘lack of submission’?? I don’t believe that makes sense to a normal mind.
It is just as unbelievable to me to hear ANYONE speak of slavery as a satisfying reciprocal relationship. We, as a people, have sacrificed so much to be able to choose our freedoms..Slaves had no freedoms. They made the best of a horrible situation, as they were able to. The repercussions of such hateful treatment still resounds in them as a people, after all of these years..
The ignorance of the men that speaks these foolish things is almost unbelievable.
May 3rd, 2012 at 6:17 am
Been There, you said,
That was like a ‘lightbulb moment’ to me! My son, as a little boy, always looked to construction workers, the trash collectors, any man he saw nearby who exhibited strength. I would observe, as I watched him study their behavior, even the way they would stand or sit! He grew up to become a Marine. I never thought of this as a ‘male dynamic’ before..
May 3rd, 2012 at 6:58 am
Re: WIlson -- He is still considered heretical by most reformed (or i should say truly reformed) people. If you espouse his FV beliefs in the OPC or PCA, you are likely to have charges brought against you and be removed as a Pastor, (though there is some holdups with that in the NW which are being handled). He had to essentially start a new denomination, which is not a member of NAPARC (which is the cons reformed Presbyterian group). The thing with Wilson is that a lot of reformed people would say, he is off in this area or that area, but I appreciate his writing in this area. Especially in the Classical education circles, he is thought of highly, and he has influenced, and help write a curriculum that I would confess that I even use, with all my strong misgivings about him.
Re:Horton -- I love his writings and have found them to be a great counter to the indoctrination that I received in SGM. Loved Gospel driven life. He is someone who is not in the pulp-culture psuedo-reformed group but is a reformed professor and teacher.
May 3rd, 2012 at 7:34 am
I have to say, Michael Horton’s Christless Christianity was a book that really encouraged me. I’ve used thoughts and lines highlighted in Christless Christianity many times before here -- like the fact that the word “gospel” means, quite literally, “good news.” And “news” implies information about something that has already happened. Therefore, the true gospel is about what Jesus has already done for us.
This has been especially helpful for me as I’ve encountered the crazy ways that SGM has misused the term “gospel,” turning it into one of the organization’s favorite thought-terminating clichés. When an SGM pastor (or some other leader) talks about “bringing the gospel into” this or that area (as in, “Bringing the gospel into marriage,” or, “Bringing the gospel into parenting”), there is often an immediate shut-down of thinking, because of course “gospel” = good…right? So therefore, whatever advice the pastor/leader is getting ready to dole out will of course be good. And biblically correct. After all, it’s “gospel-centered” advice.
(Using words like “gospel” and “biblical” as shorthand to indicate that whatever follows is to be accepted unquestioningly is the practice of speaking in thought-terminating clichés, like I said.)
So the SGMer listens to his pastor talk about “bringing the gospel into marriage” and takes home the idea that it’s “biblical” and “gospel-centered” to have a weekly date night with his wife. There’s nothing necessarily wrong, of course, with having a date night with one’s spouse. That’s not bad advice. But how in the WORLD did something like date night get connected with the word “gospel” when it has basically NOTHING to do with the good news of what Jesus has ALREADY DONE FOR US and everything to do with what we are supposed to put on our own “To Do” lists????????
(That’s a rhetorical question. The reality is that date night has nothing to do with the true good news of Jesus and what he has already done for us.)
Anyway -- large segments of Michael Horton’s Christless Christianity have been very helpful to me.
As a disclaimer, I would add that the book can feel a little bit disjointed, as I believe it started out as a series of blog posts…and a lot of Horton’s observations flow out of his specific critique of Joel Osteen’s ministry, which likely isn’t a topic that is at the top of a lot of people’s lists of burning issues to be concerned about. But a LOT of what Horton says about the gospel -- the real true gospel of the Bible -- cuts to the heart of truth and makes one think.
Good book.
May 3rd, 2012 at 7:37 am
:Thinking: :Thinking: To ExCLCer’sMom… I have 2 daughters and 2 sons and I’ve been divorced twice. I’ve been very cognizant of the fact that my girls look at the way I treat their mothers, even in the midst of a break up. I’ve told my sons that girls look at their dads with the thoughts running in the background “is this the type of man I want to marry and spend the rest of my life with?” Even in the midst of a relationship that doesn’t quite work out, how is the break up handled. Is there a lot of screaming and physical or mental abuse. Is there respect afterwards. My exexs and I get along fine and although divorced I’m still “part of the family” and welcomed at weddings, funerals, and other family gatherings. My sons and daughters see how I’ve treated their mothers even in the midst of the break up and while things aren’t perfect we get along and respect and care for each other. (BTW… I showed my ex your daughter’s story and she had no idea. She was literally horrified. She told me that if we had known there is no way we would not have taken at least 2 of your kids. By that time our nephew had gone into the navy and we had the space in his old room. I told her to tell you so when she sees you at the checkout at G in AH.)
Remnant #304… You used the term “Israelology”. I had never seen that term before. By pulling it apart I get Israel -- the physical land mass that God gave to Abraham and the Jewish people that God covenanted with, the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God made dozens of unconditional promises to them. He swore by Himself to fulfill them. Many are not fulfilled but the physical rebirth of the nation of Israel on May 8, 1948 is the beginning of those fulfillments. Ology -- the study of. So putting them together I get the study of Israel, the land and the Jewish people.
I’m a dispensationalist precisely because in order to descern prophecy properly you have to be. Daniel’s 70th week is a return to Israel under the Law. And the church can’t be here on the planet when the focus is back on His covenanted people. There is no warrant in scripture for the church to inherit Israel’s promises. After 70 AD there was no Israel so Christians wondered about those promises and gave them to the church or interpreted them allegorically. Now there is a physical Israel with the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob living there (and speaking Hebrew as their first language)and while giving those promises to the church was an explanation for 1800 years (and it was the wrong one) it is hard to get rid of. It is considered the “proper” historical view.
That’s my “Israelology”. (However, I did leave out the persecution of the Jews by the church and why.) Am I close to yours? :Thinking:
May 3rd, 2012 at 7:40 am
While homeschooling, it was our interest in “classical education” that first drew us to the “Wilsonites.” We were SOOOOOOOO impressed with all of them. It was refreshing to be with “like-minded” people when it came to so many things we believed about education and the Christian faith. Bit by bit, however, we began to observe things that concerned us. It was very similar to Kris’s personal experience with SGM. In fact, I could have started a blog about “Wilsonites” that probably would have sounded very much like those early posts Kris wrote.
I’m not quite sure why God allowed me to be exposed to both SGM and the Wilsonites. It has caused our family great pain and heartache. But He’s a good God and I know He loves my family and me very much. I trust Him, although there are days that are really hard. I know He has a reason.
May 3rd, 2012 at 8:08 am
There are several reformed churches in the Charlotte and surrounding areas that embrace much of what Doug Wilson teaches. Matthews OPC is one of them. http://www.matthewsopc.org/index.php
They also have a classical school called “Greyfriars.”
May 3rd, 2012 at 8:49 am
I always wondered why people thought they had to embrace every single detail about whatever-reformed theology, Douglas Wilson, etc.
Why must it be either 100% or nothing?
Does “unity” really mean being identical?
I have a few Douglas Wilson books. There were some things that I really liked-his bluntness, for example.
Some of what he said spoke to me. Other things seemed off. So I took what was valuable and blessed me, and left the rest.
I guess I think that everyone should be able to read something, think about it, take from it what is valuable to them, and discard the rest. Maybe it’s one of those Jedi mind tricks from SGM-you peons just can’t discern things for yourselves, and just reading the wrong thing will cause you to blindly follow it away from God and through the gates of hell.
I had someone attempt to correct me by saying “so, if you like what an author says about something, you agree with it, but if you don’t like it, you feel free to disagree?” One of the strangest things I have heard. We were discussing a John Piper book. It seemed like he thought that because John Piper was John Piper, I had to believe that everything he wrote was spot on. I didn’t understand why I was obligated to do that, why I couldn’t form my own opinions on things if they were different than the opinion of John Piper.
I don’t have to identify myself with any theology group or label. Calvenist, Armenian, Reformed, etc.
If Jesus, God in the flesh, did not spend time debating theology, or align himself with a particular group, why must I? If it were so important, wouldn’t Jesus have told us and the Spirit have included it in the Gospels? Why can’t we respect others as “believers” without using labels that divide?
Discussing, even debating, things of the Lord is great! But to have any one man or group feel like they alone are correct and understand every single thing about every single issue, and demand that others acknowlege that, and feel that those who see it another way are less, is just unbiblical.
Sorry. Rant over.
May 3rd, 2012 at 8:55 am
Re: Kris #321
While I was in sgm I heard a lot of that “gospel centered _____” (fill in the blank with whatever…marriage, sports, etc) and “applying the gospel to ______”. You’re right, it does sound like an indisputably good thing on the surface. Once you really start to think about it though, in some cases it makes absolutely no sense and seems like it’s just something to say to make you sound holy.
When I first heard these phrases, especially in a care group setting, I have to admit I didn’t have a clue about what it meant, and felt like I just needed to nod my head and agree so I didn’t seem stupid. I was brought into sgm as a very young adult without great roots in my beliefs or theology in general. So I went from scared and confused, and inclined to believe that what all these really spotless looking people around me were saying was just too much for me to grasp, to wondering if something was askew. Sometimes I felt like asking people to explain in detail what they meant when throwing out certain phrases, just to see if they were blowing hot air, or if they really had something good to say and I was incapable of deciphering it through the sgm speak.
The special language is a great way to differentiate the insiders from the outsiders in a church culture (any culture really). It’s also is a rite of passage in a way. Once you go from a confused newcomer in a new culture to a fluent speaker of the language, you feel like you have accomplished something. You are then granted the ability to look at those who come in behind you and think “wow, I remember when I was that clueless. I can’t believe he just said that! They’ll learn…”
May 3rd, 2012 at 8:57 am
Oh the conversations I had years ago w/ one of my former pastors (SGM) about Wilson’s materials, FV and masculinist theology. Interesting to hear it re-hashed here. I don’t think my observations made much of a difference in my SGM church but another former pastor’s did, and his books were eventually dropped from our church “bookstore.”
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:05 am
Breezey #322 and Remnant #304 — I think a read of Romans 9 speaks to who Israel is. (vs 6)-For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, (7)and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” (8) This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Take notice of all the ‘not’ in the text.
That says to me that believers, as children of the promise, are counted as Israel or Abraham’s offspring.
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:07 am
QE2, I have heard something like this, too…It really silences you, doesn’t it?
But now I’m going to answer. Yes! I feel free to disagree! If what John Piper writes doesn’t fit how I know my Lord--yes, I will disagree with it.
The Lord is my Teacher and He can lead me in His way. He can lead me deeper into the truth. It won’t matter if I made mistakes along the way.
But yes, I will freely disagree. Why should I not? Could my disagreeing cause my Lord to forsake me?
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:16 am
Well, good grief, that only makes sense, QE2 and Luna! What kind of nutty person would like what he disagrees with and not like what he agrees with? :Daze:
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:19 am
QE2 and Luna — In the same way, we need not discard someone’s input from our thinking just because mention of their name incites us. As an example, CJ has preached some good and effective sermons, though now it’s difficult to listen to him speak.
May 3rd, 2012 at 11:22 am
RE:325: I so agree with idiocy of having to take everything 100% or not at all. I think it ties with the SGM view of being scared of culture and the whole a half a poison pill is still a poison pill thing. This is another way that SGM (and unfortunately they are not the only one) does not embrace typical/historical reformed theology is their view of culture. How they are more Mennonite in being scared and separate from culture, instead of seeing that God is in everything and we can learn from all. I did not like at all the 1/2 a poison pill sermon series at CLC, was very afraid of culture and not really biblical or reformed. We differ from the world in our christian view, but it is a difference of principle, as Van Til would say, it does not mean that we can get nothing out of culture. In fact Calvin even says “Shall we say that the philosophers, in their exquisite researches and skillful description of nature were blind? Shall we deny the possession of intellect to those who drew up rules for discourse, and taught us to speak in accord with reason? Shall we say that those who, by the cultivation of medical arts, expended their industry in our behalf, were only raving? What shall we say of the mathematical sciences? Shall we deem them to be the dreams of madmen? Nay, we cannot read the writings of the ancients on these subjects without the highest admiration; and admiration which their excellence will not allow us to withhold.” We can learn from those who we disagree with, or who are not fully reformed, or who are not Christians, God is bigger than man, and a sovereign God can and does use everything to teach us about him and to benefit us.
May 3rd, 2012 at 12:09 pm
I once had a fellow church member accuse me of being prideful for not agreeing with 100% of Piper’s teachings. I felt he had some good things to say, but some just didn’t sit right with me. When I voiced this, he said that it was wrong of me to think that I have a greater understanding of scripture and God than John Piper.
It’s that perspective that helps me understand why they’re so willing to take CJ’s blatant inconsistencies at face value.
Quite sad when you think about it.
May 3rd, 2012 at 12:21 pm
You know, Breezy, as horrible as it was how the pastors handled the situation with my family, I DO know (and have all long) that there were people who wanted to help us. One year, Loftness met with me Labor Day weekend, to tell me the children would not be allowed to attend CLC school..That Monday school was to begin, my children had already attended the open house, and saw their desks..I had never dealt with the public school system, and here I did not even have time to figure it all out! I went to my wonderful friend, Cathie Farr’s house, devastated, and in tears. She organized some people who went to the Pastors, and paid the tuition for my whole family that year! (That had been the pastors’ ‘excuse’, was that they could not afford to pay for my family-a very interesting excuse now that we have had some of their financials revealed). There were many wonderful Saints, who did care, and helped as they could-but many were discouraged, mostly due to the pastors allowing gossip and slander to spread through rumors and lack of true, honest information. But, I look back, and think, as difficult as ti was to endure, because of the way they treated me and my children, I left their organization. The world treated me kinder, and was more helpful than that church. God was with me always. In looking back now, I can see the effects on my children-the older ones, who spent the most time within that culture, are most opposed to any experience with Jesus, or even God at all. In my family, the less exposure to SGM any child had, the more receptive they are to the Gospel, therefore, ultimately, I would have loved to left way earlier, even being ‘exposed to the world’, because my children who have grown up outside of a church have fared so much better. But, thank you-I do appreciate your kind thoughts. I never go to the G at AH, though, but I appreciate your ex-wife’s sentiment. To me, the lesson I think to learn is that we should hear God speak to us for ourselves concerning who and how to help anyone, and to speak to them directly, because we are each responsible for our own heart towards God, the the subsequent actions that occur out of the abundance of our heart. I am praying for those poor people in Lousiville.
May 3rd, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Kris #321 -- I agree with everything you wrote in this comment (so it must be correct, ha-ha). “Christless Christianity” deserves to be a classic, imo. If you read the Horton article I linked to, I’d be curious to know your opinion of it.
FSGP #309 -- If WMWest is Westminster Seminary California, yes, he’s still there. I, too, haven’t listened to WHI in a while, but, if his recent book, “For Calvinism,” is any indication, he’s less strident than before: “Unlike myriad sects, we do not regard our congregations or denominations as the only true church, but as part of the catholic church across all times and places.” Also, I don’t recall if he used to identify Arminianism with Semi-Pelagianism. In any case, here’s what he says now: “The crucial difference between Arminianism and Semi-Pelagianism is that the former insists upon the necessity of grace prior to all human response.”
Stunned #305 -- Thank YOU for clarifying.
Remnant #304 -- I’ve heard differing reports from people who have spoken to pastors at CLC, but I believe that they, and probably all of SGM, believe that the Church is “spiritual Israel,” even if they may not use those exact words. They seem to view the OT through the NT lens.
Breeezey #322 -- If Israel were a part of a Systematic Theology, it would be called “Israelology.” (I highly recommend “Israelology: The Missing Link In Systematic Theology,” by Arnold Fruchtenbaum.) I think you gave a good brief overview of the main issues.
Oswald #328 -- Rom. 9:6-8 speaks of physical Israel and spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel are those of physical Israel who are believers in Messiah, i.e. believing Jews. The context of this passage does not deal with Gentiles or the church.
May 3rd, 2012 at 7:17 pm
About whether a person should or shouldn’t, or can or can’t believe 100% of what an ecclesiastic says or teaches, nothing which purports to be of spiritual content should be taken at face value. Any biblical “proof texts” should be checked for validity as well as context. Any other biblical quotes should be similarly checked. One mis-quoted or “shoehorned” bible quote contaminates the whole thing. Remember, satan misquoted God’s command just a little bit, but it was enough to make what he said an outright lie. “A little leaven leavens the whole lump” as Paul said. If a speaker is willing to misuse the bible even a little should be questions as to his motives for doing so. People, especially ordained speakers should be scrupulously careful how they handle the Word of God. Like God says in Is. 8:20, “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them”. Notice it says “no light”. A partial untruth is still a whole untruth.
(Beating dead horse here)
May 3rd, 2012 at 8:07 pm
@JeffB, Breezey, Oswald: I just sat down to type a response and see that JeffB wrote it for me! I highly recommend the book Jeff mentioned on Israelology (a term coined by Fruchtenbaum, I believe). (Jeff, have you ever attended Camp Shoshanah?)
I would only seek to add a point to this discussion: I firmly believe that one’s view of Israel (past, present, future) filters one’s understanding of present-day theology and the purpose and role of the Church. I find that SGM’s disregard of the topic shows an ignorance, a haughtiness, a pathetic neglect of a huge portion of the written Word and God’s outworking of His purpose on earth throughout history which has, perhaps, skewed their view of their own importance within the Body.
May 4th, 2012 at 12:44 am
Restating the “agree with what you like”--
“You mean that if you have two and two, you’ll call it four, but if you have one and two you’ll feel free to call it three??”
Yes. Yes, I’ll call it three.
(hee hee)
May 4th, 2012 at 6:12 am
Kris said, “But how in the WORLD did something like date night get connected with the word “gospel” when it has basically NOTHING to do with the good news of what Jesus has ALREADY DONE FOR US and everything to do with what we are supposed to put on our own “To Do” lists????????”
YES! Amen!!!!!!! The work of religion is do’s and don’ts, but the work of Jesus was already DONE!
May 4th, 2012 at 6:24 am
QE2 said, “If Jesus, God in the flesh, did not spend time debating theology, or align himself with a particular group, why must I? If it were so important, wouldn’t Jesus have told us and the Spirit have included it in the Gospels? Why can’t we respect others as “believers” without using labels that divide?”
Bravo. I wish I had said that.
May 4th, 2012 at 6:46 am
A reader sent me the following:
I don’t know anything about the author, but the book sounds very interesting. Of course, my hackles immediately go up anytime it feels like someone wants to act like what SGM has doled out somehow isn’t “real” abuse compared to what others have gone through in full-blown cults. Maybe the author of this promotional statement didn’t mean it that way. But I don’t think too many people who have walked through SGM’s shepherding, control, and masterful manipulation would call it “child’s play.”
I actually think that the more subtle forms of spiritual abuse have different -- and more insidious -- effects. It’s “child’s play” to point to a a group that isolates itself on a compound out in the middle of nowhere and recognize there might be some dysfunction there. It’s a lot more difficult to see what’s happening when the dysfunctional group has technically correct “sound theology” and is working hard to make itself blend in better with mainstream Christianity.
May 4th, 2012 at 8:33 am
I recall that a news director of some sort from the NBC Evening News in Washington attended FFX for awhile back in the late 90′s She played the flute in worship and was really nice. I noticed after awhile (maybe a year?) she totally disappeared from church.
Wonder if she’s still a news director and what she thinks of SGM? I don’t remember her name.
May 4th, 2012 at 9:02 am
Off topic, but an interesting article from Tony Reinke at Desiring God, link below. Titled “15 Tips on Blogging from John Newton” All the tips are backed by words from the writings of Newton. They could apply to commenters as well as bloggers.
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/15-tips-on-blogging-from-john-newton
May 4th, 2012 at 10:33 am
@Oswald #343 -- Thanks for sharing that. I’ve found it very helpful and encouraging.
May 4th, 2012 at 11:40 am
Remnant #337 --
Amen!
Alas, I’ve never attended Camp Shoshanah. Had some in-person teaching from the Frucht, though.
May 4th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
People might find Julia Duin’s video talking about her book.
http://www.juliaduin.com/books/daysoffireandglory/
The video was recorded outside of Christ Church of Washington where TAG Ministries met. The books isn’t that much about TAG but she does mention this in the video.
May 4th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
In the above video talks about why the charismatic movement ended and she talked about sexual sin and control, especially control in catholic charismatic groups. There was also some abuse of money. It was the sex, power and to some degree money.
The interviewer indicated that the charismatic movement is going “gangbusters” overseas but not doing much here in the USA. Julia indicated that in her opinion it wasn’t happening due to people not having dealt with root causes of sin in the USA and God was withholding revival till it was.
I will try to get the book and see if she comments any more on what those root causes might be.
May 4th, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Kris,
Here is an example from my own observation of the difference between the approach of a 1970s Shepherding Movement leader vs SGM:
Shepherding leader (publicly) YOU are a rebel. 1 Samuel 15:23 says “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”. You have broken covenant, so you must be cut off from this fellowship.
SGM CGL : (privately) Is there some reason you did not trust you pastor enough to ask for his counsel before making that decision?
The difference is blatant domination vs subtle manipulation. Both can be hurtful.
May 4th, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Here’s something to ponder:
I’m struck with the long trail of devastated individuals, families, literally abused kids, and ministers/ministries left behind these jokers, and the fact that largely they really don’t care, evidenced by the lack of repentence and refusal to follow the code they ask the sheep to live by.
At what point does everyone stop calling it pride, unentreatability, ambition, narcissism, poor polity,and the like and start calling it what it really is: Evil?
May 4th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Well said, Luna Moth! :D
(I’ve posted here before, but under a different moniker.)
The thing that most bothers me at the present time (and there are are many to choose from!) about SGM and similar groups is their treatment of women and girls. I grew up in SGCP (formerly ALCC)--unlike many of you, I had no choice to join, and I do think I would have recognized that den of liars for what it was, if I had met them at this point in my life. I know you can never tell whether you’ll get deceived by a cult, but I reserve the right to say that because hey, I was abused. Spiritually and emotionally abused. They contributed hugely to my OCD, which had (HAD, because I’m mostly over it now YAY!) a very moralitic, condemning tint.
Then there’s the Modesty doctrine. Even now I feel uncomfortable with my body and who I am as a woman--not that I think I’m ugly, I’m just shy/nervous about choosing to be beautiful in my whimsical dramatic sensual romantic way (yes I’m Goth XD ), because of all the slut-shaming and “blame the victim” culture that went on. Not that I was an actual victim, but that didn’t stop them from blaming me. Blaming all of us, who dared to be young and pretty and impressionable and FEMALE. >.> This “make sure other people don’t get to close to you or *things* could happen” idea gives me problems even now, because even though I’ve rejected it, there are so many subconscious lingering threads. Well, as a friend of mine pointed out, I WANT those *things* to happen! So good-bye SGM, and four-in-binary! (I’ll leave it to those of who know the binary one-hand method of counting to figure that out. ;) )
^-^ ~Feminist, Goth, Mystic and beloved of the Prince of the Universe.